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Assessing SEND – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,035
edited 6:47AM in General
Assessing SEND – politicalbetting.com

In this case, what has led me to pick up my pen is the revelation of a new SEND policy from our beloved government. The details are currently a little sketchy as the white paper was badly written by somebody who was obviously fresh from one of Susan Acland-Hood’s famous works meetings. However, it seems to be clear that the government intends to do at least some of the following:

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 26,452
    edited 6:52AM
    First !!

  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,817
    edited 6:58AM
    Secundo.

    Thanks for the header, Y.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,452
    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    edited 7:01AM
    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    My experience I am afraid is that if anything the problems are underdiagnosed.

    The government claims otherwise because it doesn't want to spend the money.

    Again, therefore, we come back to, should we not rather be asking why there's so damn much SEND about and why it's so expensive, and whether the fault is in the actual system?

    Edit - which is actually not far off what the review says, once the government spin has been stripped out. They say schools are increasingly becoming intolerably stressful environments, and the preferred way (indeed the only way, in many cases) of treating that has been a medical diagnosis.

    Would it not be more sensible to treat the cause rather than suppress the symptom?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217
    Some sensible points here but certainly private schools many of whom have great experience and specialism in handling pupils with Special Educational Needs should be supported not hampered by the government.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217
    'UK will seek closer ties with EU in light of Iran war, Starmer says.'

    'The PM was asked if the UK was heading towards rejoining the EU single market, which enables goods, service and people to move freely between member states, with countries applying many common rules and standards.

    "I do think that we should strengthen our cooperation on defence, security, energy, emissions and the economy," he replied.

    "I'm ambitious that we can do more in relation to the single market, because I think that's hugely in our economic interests."

    However, he said Labour's election manifesto commitment that there would be no return to the single market, the customs union'
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,828
    We live in troubled times, but it is reassuring that we can still rely on the Express to put a picture of Diana on the front page.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,817
    edited 7:01AM
    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    However, the evaluation should be on net gain, not just "overdiagnosis".

    What was the impact of the previous "under-diagnosis", and how do the two compare?

    It's a fairly close analogy to "false positives" in screening programmes - what is the balance.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,817
    edited 7:09AM
    I'm having interesting dealings with the gas companies with this meter problem that the Gas Safety check I mentioned yesterday brought to light.

    The T has a smart meter first installed in 2017, which has gone pop. The Gas Engineers hate them because there is more gubbins inside (including to switch the reply off remotely) and they last about 1/3 to 1/5 as long as a traditional meter - 5-10 years vs 25 to 35 years, and my gas engineer now has a policy of not dealing with supply companies on behalf of clients due to many occasions of hanging around for ours waiting for them whilst all the other jobs for that day become angry with her.

    It was interesting was that T tried to equivocate, and could have tried to fiddle with the gas if not read the riot act. Fortunately it is only heating and hot water which use gas, so one of my loan fan heaters was offered.

    The Gas Supplier is a separate co to the Gas Distributor (has been the case since it was all redone). The Gas Supplier (who send bills and run the account) refused to discuss anything 'without the spoken consent of the account holder". I could just have lied and impersonated but if that blows back it is serious. "I can't make a note of this call on the account, because without the account holders consent I cannot access it."

    The Gas Distributor, on being told the words from the Gas Engineer ('no gas coming through, unable to complete safety check, supply closed off, tenant has no gas, Gas Engineer suspects the regulator valve in the meter has died'), they had an engineer there in half an hour who capped it off properly rather than just closing it at the meter as the gas Engineer had done.

    But it is the supplier who replaces the meter, and we need them to respond before T can have his gas supply back.

    I hate gas; the downside if something goes really wrong is just too serious.

    That is the sort of situation where self-managing landlords 200 miles away come a cropper, and you need a full service lettings agent. That is what has happened with one of these illegal Residential Homes for children that came out this week; one of the owners lives in Spain or somewhere and he relied on "not present" as his excuse for children being abused in his business by criminals employed to work there.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,732
    FPT…
    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    olm said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it's time to cut £40bn from welfare and build a properly independent nuclear deterrent and properly fund defence. We can no longer rely on the US regardless of who is in the White House. The Trident programme made sense in an era when the UK and US were inseparable in terms of our global aims but now that is no longer the case. We cannot be beholden to what I would term as an informal ally for such a crucial part of our defence posture.

    It's a truly sad state of affairs when the US and UK can no longer say they have the same outlook on the world regardless of who occupies No 10 or the White House. That partnership has been the cornerstone of the post war consensus and now it seems to be broken beyond repair. I think America is going to quickly realise it's a cold world out there and even though it maintains defence primacy, life without friends and allies is much tougher than MAGA and other isolationists realise. Thralldom may suit some countries but I think we need to start planning for a world in which we will need to defend our own interests without an implicit guarantee from American military might.

    Welfare and pensions are not affordable in this new era and both will need substantial cuts.

    On you final point we can't just let the old, the infirmed, the disabled, the poor to live in abject poverty. We have to offer voluntary euthanasia like we would an old dog or cat at the end of their life.

    Alternatively the World and more specifically Britain could operate a society where the top one percent don't own 90% of wealth, or whatever the figure is these days.

    The peasants need to revolt like they did in the French, the Russian and the Iranian revolutions. The outcomes of each may not have been optimal after the revolutions but your remedy is no better.
    The UK has one of the biggest welfare states in the world and the top 10% only own 43% of UK wealth not 90% (whereas in the US now the top 10% own 67% of the nation's wealth)

    https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/
    47% of GB owned by wealthiest 10%
    8% of GB owned by poorest 50%

    Your figure of 43% was close, but I've based the above on the latest ONS figures, plus Advani and Tarrant corrections adding a few percent to the top 1% and top 10% which was missed from close-companies and equity, and undersampling.

    Even without the corrections, it remains hideous. And when you factor in income, one can see that the poorest are working to make the wealthiest richer. So the issue of the welfare state is really obscuring the real steal and even if the Greens don't have a fully-fledged plan, only they are identifying the issue on the national level. The concern about the welfare state pales even more when we consider impending AI+robotics impacts on working. The wealthiest don't even actually need to work - that is the real welfare state, it's torrent-up not trickle-down. I'm not sure those of us in the lowest decile should be thankful for being thrown crumbs.

    How is people keeping money they worked for in any sense a "steal"?

    The real "steal" is taking vast amounts of money from those that earn it and giving it to those who sit on their arses all day, or can't be bothered to become more productive.

    And, unsurprisingly, it is disastrous for everybody over time anyway. It rewards exactly those people who don't deserve it - the lazy and the unproductive, and penalises the achievers, and so it devastates economic growth. That the effects of reduced incentives aren't immediately visible doesn't make them any less real.

    So it fails in the long run even on its own terms.
    The wealthiest 1%, owning 10% of wealth; the wealthiest 10% owning 43%, is actually highly egalitarian, compared to most contemporary societies, and definitely compared to most past societies. Karl Marx would have been astonished by the spread of wealth down the social scale.
    Wealth inequality is greater than it was in the 1950s and ‘60s.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,086
    @numb.comfortab.ly‬

    I like it how you can see the time when Trump's speech occured

    https://bsky.app/profile/numb.comfortab.ly/post/3mii3iq2lhk27
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    HYUFD said:

    Some sensible points here but certainly private schools many of whom have great experience and specialism in handling pupils with Special Educational Needs should be supported not hampered by the government.

    I'm inclined to agree with you, which is one reason why I think VAT on school fees is stupid and counterproductive. But my idea would be to take the key thing that makes private schools desirable - smaller, quieter environments - and roll it out nationwide.

    It's not a panacea. It wouldn't deal with hunger, or disillusionment, or gang culture on its own. But it would be a considerable step forward in dealing with issues around SEND and allow more space to at least try and get to grips with these others.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,886
    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    MattW said:

    I'm having interesting dealings with the gas companies with this meter problem that the Gas Safety check I mentioned yesterday brought to light.

    We have a smart meter installed in 2017, which seem sot have gone pop. The Gas Engineers hate them because there is more gubbins inside (including to switch the reply off remotely) and they last about 1/3 to 1/5 as long as a traditionol meter - 5-10 years vs 25 to 35 years, and my gas engineer now has a policy of not dealing with supply companies on behalf of clients due to many occasions of hanging around for ours waiting for them whilst all the other jobs for that day become angry with her.

    The Gas Supplier is a separate co to the Gas Distributor (has been the case since it was all redone). The Gas Supplier (who send bills and run the account) refused to discuss anything 'without the spoken consent of the account holder". I could just have lied and impersonated but if that blows back it is serious. "I can;t make a note of this call on the account, because without the account holders consent I cannot access it."

    The Gas Distributor, on being told the words from the Gas Engineer ('no gas coming through, unable to complete safety check, supply closed off, tenant has no gas, Gas Engineer suspects the regulator valve in the meter has died'), they had an engineer there in half an hour who capped it off properly rather than just closing it at the meter as the gas Engineer had done.

    But it is the supplier who replaces the meter, and we need them to respond before T can have his gas supply back.

    I hate gas; the downside if something goes really wrong is just too serious..

    What's the difference between an honest utility company and a sane Truth Social message from Trump?

    There's just a chance somebody may see a sane Truth Social post from Trump if his minders get his phone.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,857
    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    The problem is that without a formal diagnosis no help is recieved.

    In a better world pupils would get individualised support tailored to their particular needs and abilities whether they had a formal diagnosis or not. I suspect too that this would be self funding in the long term as they would become more productive adults.

    Instead we have institutionalised a medical model of neurodiversity and created a bureaucratic industry of forms and certificates.

    I think in many cases these limit rather than help pupils. So we get "I cannot do that because of my ADHD" rather than "because of my ADHD I need a quiet place to study without distraction".

    A lot of growing up is about learning self control and how to tolerate boredom in the interest of delayed gratification. These are steps to be embraced as part of preparation for adult life. Education should not be fun, at least not all the time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217
    HYUFD said:

    'UK will seek closer ties with EU in light of Iran war, Starmer says.'

    'The PM was asked if the UK was heading towards rejoining the EU single market, which enables goods, service and people to move freely between member states, with countries applying many common rules and standards.

    "I do think that we should strengthen our cooperation on defence, security, energy, emissions and the economy," he replied.

    "I'm ambitious that we can do more in relation to the single market, because I think that's hugely in our economic interests."

    However, he said Labour's election manifesto commitment that there would be no return to the single market, the customs union'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62l6w03lwzo
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 59,027

    FPT…

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    olm said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it's time to cut £40bn from welfare and build a properly independent nuclear deterrent and properly fund defence. We can no longer rely on the US regardless of who is in the White House. The Trident programme made sense in an era when the UK and US were inseparable in terms of our global aims but now that is no longer the case. We cannot be beholden to what I would term as an informal ally for such a crucial part of our defence posture.

    It's a truly sad state of affairs when the US and UK can no longer say they have the same outlook on the world regardless of who occupies No 10 or the White House. That partnership has been the cornerstone of the post war consensus and now it seems to be broken beyond repair. I think America is going to quickly realise it's a cold world out there and even though it maintains defence primacy, life without friends and allies is much tougher than MAGA and other isolationists realise. Thralldom may suit some countries but I think we need to start planning for a world in which we will need to defend our own interests without an implicit guarantee from American military might.

    Welfare and pensions are not affordable in this new era and both will need substantial cuts.

    On you final point we can't just let the old, the infirmed, the disabled, the poor to live in abject poverty. We have to offer voluntary euthanasia like we would an old dog or cat at the end of their life.

    Alternatively the World and more specifically Britain could operate a society where the top one percent don't own 90% of wealth, or whatever the figure is these days.

    The peasants need to revolt like they did in the French, the Russian and the Iranian revolutions. The outcomes of each may not have been optimal after the revolutions but your remedy is no better.
    The UK has one of the biggest welfare states in the world and the top 10% only own 43% of UK wealth not 90% (whereas in the US now the top 10% own 67% of the nation's wealth)

    https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/
    47% of GB owned by wealthiest 10%
    8% of GB owned by poorest 50%

    Your figure of 43% was close, but I've based the above on the latest ONS figures, plus Advani and Tarrant corrections adding a few percent to the top 1% and top 10% which was missed from close-companies and equity, and undersampling.

    Even without the corrections, it remains hideous. And when you factor in income, one can see that the poorest are working to make the wealthiest richer. So the issue of the welfare state is really obscuring the real steal and even if the Greens don't have a fully-fledged plan, only they are identifying the issue on the national level. The concern about the welfare state pales even more when we consider impending AI+robotics impacts on working. The wealthiest don't even actually need to work - that is the real welfare state, it's torrent-up not trickle-down. I'm not sure those of us in the lowest decile should be thankful for being thrown crumbs.

    How is people keeping money they worked for in any sense a "steal"?

    The real "steal" is taking vast amounts of money from those that earn it and giving it to those who sit on their arses all day, or can't be bothered to become more productive.

    And, unsurprisingly, it is disastrous for everybody over time anyway. It rewards exactly those people who don't deserve it - the lazy and the unproductive, and penalises the achievers, and so it devastates economic growth. That the effects of reduced incentives aren't immediately visible doesn't make them any less real.

    So it fails in the long run even on its own terms.
    The wealthiest 1%, owning 10% of wealth; the wealthiest 10% owning 43%, is actually highly egalitarian, compared to most contemporary societies, and definitely compared to most past societies. Karl Marx would have been astonished by the spread of wealth down the social scale.
    Wealth inequality is greater than it was in the 1950s and ‘60s.
    But wealth is greater than could ever be imagined back then.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217
    edited 7:11AM

    FPT…

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    olm said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it's time to cut £40bn from welfare and build a properly independent nuclear deterrent and properly fund defence. We can no longer rely on the US regardless of who is in the White House. The Trident programme made sense in an era when the UK and US were inseparable in terms of our global aims but now that is no longer the case. We cannot be beholden to what I would term as an informal ally for such a crucial part of our defence posture.

    It's a truly sad state of affairs when the US and UK can no longer say they have the same outlook on the world regardless of who occupies No 10 or the White House. That partnership has been the cornerstone of the post war consensus and now it seems to be broken beyond repair. I think America is going to quickly realise it's a cold world out there and even though it maintains defence primacy, life without friends and allies is much tougher than MAGA and other isolationists realise. Thralldom may suit some countries but I think we need to start planning for a world in which we will need to defend our own interests without an implicit guarantee from American military might.

    Welfare and pensions are not affordable in this new era and both will need substantial cuts.

    On you final point we can't just let the old, the infirmed, the disabled, the poor to live in abject poverty. We have to offer voluntary euthanasia like we would an old dog or cat at the end of their life.

    Alternatively the World and more specifically Britain could operate a society where the top one percent don't own 90% of wealth, or whatever the figure is these days.

    The peasants need to revolt like they did in the French, the Russian and the Iranian revolutions. The outcomes of each may not have been optimal after the revolutions but your remedy is no better.
    The UK has one of the biggest welfare states in the world and the top 10% only own 43% of UK wealth not 90% (whereas in the US now the top 10% own 67% of the nation's wealth)

    https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/
    47% of GB owned by wealthiest 10%
    8% of GB owned by poorest 50%

    Your figure of 43% was close, but I've based the above on the latest ONS figures, plus Advani and Tarrant corrections adding a few percent to the top 1% and top 10% which was missed from close-companies and equity, and undersampling.

    Even without the corrections, it remains hideous. And when you factor in income, one can see that the poorest are working to make the wealthiest richer. So the issue of the welfare state is really obscuring the real steal and even if the Greens don't have a fully-fledged plan, only they are identifying the issue on the national level. The concern about the welfare state pales even more when we consider impending AI+robotics impacts on working. The wealthiest don't even actually need to work - that is the real welfare state, it's torrent-up not trickle-down. I'm not sure those of us in the lowest decile should be thankful for being thrown crumbs.

    How is people keeping money they worked for in any sense a "steal"?

    The real "steal" is taking vast amounts of money from those that earn it and giving it to those who sit on their arses all day, or can't be bothered to become more productive.

    And, unsurprisingly, it is disastrous for everybody over time anyway. It rewards exactly those people who don't deserve it - the lazy and the unproductive, and penalises the achievers, and so it devastates economic growth. That the effects of reduced incentives aren't immediately visible doesn't make them any less real.

    So it fails in the long run even on its own terms.
    The wealthiest 1%, owning 10% of wealth; the wealthiest 10% owning 43%, is actually highly egalitarian, compared to most contemporary societies, and definitely compared to most past societies. Karl Marx would have been astonished by the spread of wealth down the social scale.
    Wealth inequality is greater than it was in the 1950s and ‘60s.
    Though poverty rates are much lower, certainly in China and India
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,833
    edited 7:12AM
    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,817
    edited 7:17AM
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    The problem is that without a formal diagnosis no help is recieved.

    In a better world pupils would get individualised support tailored to their particular needs and abilities whether they had a formal diagnosis or not. I suspect too that this would be self funding in the long term as they would become more productive adults.

    Instead we have institutionalised a medical model of neurodiversity and created a bureaucratic industry of forms and certificates.

    I think in many cases these limit rather than help pupils. So we get "I cannot do that because of my ADHD" rather than "because of my ADHD I need a quiet place to study without distraction".

    A lot of growing up is about learning self control and how to tolerate boredom in the interest of delayed gratification. These are steps to be embraced as part of preparation for adult life. Education should not be fun, at least not all the time.
    I'm interested in your use of "Medical Model".

    One I often argue wrt disability is that we have still not moved on sufficiently from "Medical Model" to "Social Model" which became the basis of our laws etc from the 1980s.

    The shift is philosophical, in viewing disabled people as "part of us" not "them, to whom we do things and they had better be grateful".

    Members of wider society often cannot look the idea that a disabled person is "someone like me" or "I may become one at a moment's notice" in the eye, and are terrified. It's like the comprehension difficulties we can sometimes see with notions such as wheelchair users having sex lives.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 60,781
    edited 7:15AM
    One for Mr Eagles’ sense of humour.

    “How to open the Strait of Hormuz”

    https://x.com/_a_khalifa/status/2039430195434938576

    Warning! Once you see it, you can’t unsee it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,070
    edited 7:14AM
    An excellent header, as ever.

    My thought, as always, is that we should try an experiment of running a school in the manner suggested.

    We have a number that are failing to the point of collapse. So, it will be difficult to make things worse for the pupils. Restructure as suggested and observe the result.

    On thing though. I strongly object to describing the DfE as “incompetent and frequently drunken idiots.”

    As an incompetent and frequently drunken idiot, I protest. I’ve never advocated or done anything similar to the things they do.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,817
    edited 7:15AM
    FPT
    Nigelb said:

    JD Vance using a photo of a Methodist church on the cover of his book about CATHOLICISM is some real Veep-level shit.
    https://x.com/MikeNellis/status/2039368324086141173

    That's Vance's version of Johan Major's "old maids cycling to Evensong" at Medieval rural parish churches, or Nigel Farage's imagined version of the 1950s that never existed except in his head.

    Vance is using to the "white churches of Virginia (or New England)" cultural symbol of the American Myth to appeal to the Evangelicalism for which he expressed scorn for when he became a Roman Catholic; he called Evangelicalism "unsatisfying", and he was right if it is the unthinking Born Again template, limited to the agenda moulded by Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority fifty years ago, made up of a projected personal morality, "but never mind the wars or the wealth".

    There's also an underlying cultural appeal to the pre-Civil War architecture, embodying a romanticised past.

    JDV needs both the White Evangelical and Integralist Roman Catholic wings to keep his goose flying.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,857
    The expansion of diagnosis is very much being driven by the less severely affected. There isn't much evidence that the moderate to severe forms of neurodiversity are any more common than they have always been. The expansion is very much at the less severe end, and it is amongst these that I have my doubts that diagnosis helps.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,791
    edited 7:16AM
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    My experience I am afraid is that if anything the problems are underdiagnosed.

    The government claims otherwise because it doesn't want to spend the money.

    Again, therefore, we come back to, should we not rather be asking why there's so damn much SEND about and why it's so expensive, and whether the fault is in the actual system?

    Edit - which is actually not far off what the review says, once the government spin has been stripped out. They say schools are increasingly becoming intolerably stressful environments, and the preferred way (indeed the only way, in many cases) of treating that has been a medical diagnosis.

    Would it not be more sensible to treat the cause rather than suppress the symptom?
    An excellent header, and I like your class size prescription. It might even save us spending future billions to address social problems resulting from the current mess.

    Anecdatum... Before retiring, my wife had classes of around 33.
    For a couple of years, something between 10 and 15% of her time was spent dealing with one (large and frequently violent) child with severe problems.
    They were, obviously, not the only child in the class with complex needs.

    The local authority PRU was rarely available as it was always oversubscribed. One year, they funded an internal PRU for the school, which worked pretty well, and then they withdrew funding.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217
    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
  • eekeek Posts: 33,156
    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    Not even all Grammar schools do, if the teacher has left and can’t be quickly replaced the course goes never to be replaced).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,070

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,068
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    The problem is that without a formal diagnosis no help is recieved.

    In a better world pupils would get individualised support tailored to their particular needs and abilities whether they had a formal diagnosis or not. I suspect too that this would be self funding in the long term as they would become more productive adults.

    Instead we have institutionalised a medical model of neurodiversity and created a bureaucratic industry of forms and certificates.

    I think in many cases these limit rather than help pupils. So we get "I cannot do that because of my ADHD" rather than "because of my ADHD I need a quiet place to study without distraction".

    A lot of growing up is about learning self control and how to tolerate boredom in the interest of delayed gratification. These are steps to be embraced as part of preparation for adult life. Education should not be fun, at least not all the time.
    Though education should be fun some of the time, and probably more of the time than is the case right now.

    Since at least Blunkett, we have created a system that gets as many young people as possible a good package of GCSE grades as possible for the lowest cost possible. Governments gave been upfront about the first half of that, and budgets have dictated the second half.

    It seems pretty likely that some of what we're seeing is the obvious distress of square pegs being hammered into round holes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    So what you're saying is, you respect my knowledge but disagree entirely because you are firmly convinced that things were better in the old days? But then talk about Latin and Greek?

    One thing we keep overlooking is that modern comprehensives are essentially designed to be grammar schools in terms of style and content. The problem is that grammar schools were designed, quite deliberately and often rather ineptly, for a very small cohort - no more than a third of children at most, originally much less. Most children with what we would now realise is a SEND condition wouldn't get in, either because they would struggle to read and write or because they couldn't concentrate for long enough to learn.

    This has been seriously exacerbated by Gove's reforms, which essentially rested on the belief that making everyone pass very hard exams makes them cleverer. No, it doesn't. It just makes things much more complicated for everyone.

    I see absolutely no sign Phillipson understands this. In fact in some ways her background is probably a hindrance, because her experience is just as narrow and dogmatically focussed as Gove's but from a different angle.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,828
    MattW said:

    I'm having interesting dealings with the gas companies with this meter problem that the Gas Safety check I mentioned yesterday brought to light.

    The T has a smart meter first installed in 2017, which has gone pop. The Gas Engineers hate them because there is more gubbins inside (including to switch the reply off remotely) and they last about 1/3 to 1/5 as long as a traditional meter - 5-10 years vs 25 to 35 years, and my gas engineer now has a policy of not dealing with supply companies on behalf of clients due to many occasions of hanging around for ours waiting for them whilst all the other jobs for that day become angry with her.

    It was interesting was that T tried to equivocate, and could have tried to fiddle with the gas if not read the riot act. Fortunately it is only heating and hot water which use gas, so one of my loan fan heaters was offered.

    The Gas Supplier is a separate co to the Gas Distributor (has been the case since it was all redone). The Gas Supplier (who send bills and run the account) refused to discuss anything 'without the spoken consent of the account holder". I could just have lied and impersonated but if that blows back it is serious. "I can't make a note of this call on the account, because without the account holders consent I cannot access it."

    The Gas Distributor, on being told the words from the Gas Engineer ('no gas coming through, unable to complete safety check, supply closed off, tenant has no gas, Gas Engineer suspects the regulator valve in the meter has died'), they had an engineer there in half an hour who capped it off properly rather than just closing it at the meter as the gas Engineer had done.

    But it is the supplier who replaces the meter, and we need them to respond before T can have his gas supply back.

    I hate gas; the downside if something goes really wrong is just too serious.

    That is the sort of situation where self-managing landlords 200 miles away come a cropper, and you need a full service lettings agent. That is what has happened with one of these illegal Residential Homes for children that came out this week; one of the owners lives in Spain or somewhere and he relied on "not present" as his excuse for children being abused in his business by criminals employed to work there.

    Gas fitter. Not engineer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,791
    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    One of the original ideas of academies was to allow diversity and experimentation in school provision.
    It really doesn't seem to have worked out that way.

    I get that there's a reluctance to use children as guinea pigs in experiments, but we're effectively doing that anyway, except running only one single, rather deeply flawed mass experiment.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 60,781

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,077
    Thank you for the very informative header. I'm in no position to comment, partly because I've had nothing to do with schools since leaving my own comprehensive, but more so because I'm suffering from great despair at everything. I'm just glad they aren't my problems to resolve.

    Good morning, everyone.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,070
    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    So how much is their education costing in total.

    £5K a head, per year, for the difference between university and functional illiteracy sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

    For a start, they have a good chance of being net tax payers.

    Which would help fund £5k a head…
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    edited 7:29AM

    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    So how much is their education costing in total.

    £5K a head, per year, for the difference between university and functional illiteracy sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

    For a start, they have a good chance of being net tax payers.

    Which would help fund £5k a head…
    Not a bad point.

    If they have 6 teachers like me (I think that's the average for GCSE bearing in mind several of us teach more than one subject) then it's about £30,000 a year per pupil. Plus admin.

    If we had smaller class sizes paid for at £15,000 per year per pupil we might still get the desirable outcome at half the cost.

    And better outcomes for everyone else too.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,886
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    One of the original ideas of academies was to allow diversity and experimentation in school provision.
    It really doesn't seem to have worked out that way.

    I get that there's a reluctance to use children as guinea pigs in experiments, but we're effectively doing that anyway, except running only one single, rather deeply flawed mass experiment.
    I have no problem with excellent local managers doing amazing things with their schools.

    I have huge problems with academies as run. Many are doing amazing things to fragment the system, extract big operating costs for themselves and driving up procurement costs for all the things that all academies need but are now being bought separately.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217
    edited 7:31AM
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    Not even all Grammar schools do, if the teacher has left and can’t be quickly replaced the course goes never to be replaced).
    True but some do, try finding a comprehensive or academy teaching Latin or Greek. Though Mary Beard's initiative was doing good work trying to get some of them to at least give it a go
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,791
    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    Absolutely.
    See my example above. One child taking 10% of your time in a class of 30+ is a huge burden. In a class half that size it almost disappears.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,055
    Offtopic, missed this fun story from yesterday
    https://road.cc/news/bp-encourages-drivers-to-save-100-on-soaring-fuel-prices-by-cycling-to-petrol-stations-instead

    (Google news just popped it up for me as a genuine news item :lol:)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,791
    AnneJGP said:

    Thank you for the very informative header. I'm in no position to comment, partly because I've had nothing to do with schools since leaving my own comprehensive, but more so because I'm suffering from great despair at everything. I'm just glad they aren't my problems to resolve.

    Good morning, everyone.

    Good morning, and chin up.
    We will muddle through.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,070
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some sensible points here but certainly private schools many of whom have great experience and specialism in handling pupils with Special Educational Needs should be supported not hampered by the government.

    I'm inclined to agree with you, which is one reason why I think VAT on school fees is stupid and counterproductive. But my idea would be to take the key thing that makes private schools desirable - smaller, quieter environments - and roll it out nationwide.

    It's not a panacea. It wouldn't deal with hunger, or disillusionment, or gang culture on its own. But it would be a considerable step forward in dealing with issues around SEND and allow more space to at least try and get to grips with these others.
    If nothing else, it’s worth a try,

    Reducing the class size in a few schools to 15 is very unlikely to ruin the pupils education. So why not experiment?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,733
    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Good morning, everyone.

    It's just emotional support pets on flights all over again. Genuinely useful for some people with psych problems, exploited as a loophole by morons, then banned.

    Some people have genuine handicaps, whether learning problems or psychological disorders, and struggle with particular aspects of examinations and so forth. So allowances are made. But widespread diagnosis (and, incidentally, the drive to pathologise every quirk of human behaviour was something that was well-known even when I was studying Psych at university over two decades ago) means that, just coincidentally, these allowances are not being made accessible to a huge number of people.

    Provide a benefit to a condition and there's an incentive for people to be diagnosed. Which makes things even worse for people who actually have serious problems, as they may now be lumped in with duplicitous shirkers.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,817

    MattW said:

    I'm having interesting dealings with the gas companies with this meter problem that the Gas Safety check I mentioned yesterday brought to light.

    The T has a smart meter first installed in 2017, which has gone pop. The Gas Engineers hate them because there is more gubbins inside (including to switch the reply off remotely) and they last about 1/3 to 1/5 as long as a traditional meter - 5-10 years vs 25 to 35 years, and my gas engineer now has a policy of not dealing with supply companies on behalf of clients due to many occasions of hanging around for ours waiting for them whilst all the other jobs for that day become angry with her.

    It was interesting was that T tried to equivocate, and could have tried to fiddle with the gas if not read the riot act. Fortunately it is only heating and hot water which use gas, so one of my loan fan heaters was offered.

    The Gas Supplier is a separate co to the Gas Distributor (has been the case since it was all redone). The Gas Supplier (who send bills and run the account) refused to discuss anything 'without the spoken consent of the account holder". I could just have lied and impersonated but if that blows back it is serious. "I can't make a note of this call on the account, because without the account holders consent I cannot access it."

    The Gas Distributor, on being told the words from the Gas Engineer ('no gas coming through, unable to complete safety check, supply closed off, tenant has no gas, Gas Engineer suspects the regulator valve in the meter has died'), they had an engineer there in half an hour who capped it off properly rather than just closing it at the meter as the gas Engineer had done.

    But it is the supplier who replaces the meter, and we need them to respond before T can have his gas supply back.

    I hate gas; the downside if something goes really wrong is just too serious.

    That is the sort of situation where self-managing landlords 200 miles away come a cropper, and you need a full service lettings agent. That is what has happened with one of these illegal Residential Homes for children that came out this week; one of the owners lives in Spain or somewhere and he relied on "not present" as his excuse for children being abused in his business by criminals employed to work there.

    Gas fitter. Not engineer.
    In the UK the regulated term is Gas Engineer, I think.

    A white collar professional who designs 'gas systems' would be a Chartered Engineer.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some sensible points here but certainly private schools many of whom have great experience and specialism in handling pupils with Special Educational Needs should be supported not hampered by the government.

    I'm inclined to agree with you, which is one reason why I think VAT on school fees is stupid and counterproductive. But my idea would be to take the key thing that makes private schools desirable - smaller, quieter environments - and roll it out nationwide.

    It's not a panacea. It wouldn't deal with hunger, or disillusionment, or gang culture on its own. But it would be a considerable step forward in dealing with issues around SEND and allow more space to at least try and get to grips with these others.
    If nothing else, it’s worth a try,

    Reducing the class size in a few schools to 15 is very unlikely to ruin the pupils education. So why not experiment?
    I suspect the honest answer is, it would work, and then the DfE would have to pay for it.

    Which they don't want to do because they want to advance their careers by showing how they save money.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,791

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some sensible points here but certainly private schools many of whom have great experience and specialism in handling pupils with Special Educational Needs should be supported not hampered by the government.

    I'm inclined to agree with you, which is one reason why I think VAT on school fees is stupid and counterproductive. But my idea would be to take the key thing that makes private schools desirable - smaller, quieter environments - and roll it out nationwide.

    It's not a panacea. It wouldn't deal with hunger, or disillusionment, or gang culture on its own. But it would be a considerable step forward in dealing with issues around SEND and allow more space to at least try and get to grips with these others.
    If nothing else, it’s worth a try,

    Reducing the class size in a few schools to 15 is very unlikely to ruin the pupils education. So why not experiment?
    There would be political outrage at the 'inequality', if it were only a few schools.
    It would require a brave politician, and...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    I'm having interesting dealings with the gas companies with this meter problem that the Gas Safety check I mentioned yesterday brought to light.

    The T has a smart meter first installed in 2017, which has gone pop. The Gas Engineers hate them because there is more gubbins inside (including to switch the reply off remotely) and they last about 1/3 to 1/5 as long as a traditional meter - 5-10 years vs 25 to 35 years, and my gas engineer now has a policy of not dealing with supply companies on behalf of clients due to many occasions of hanging around for ours waiting for them whilst all the other jobs for that day become angry with her.

    It was interesting was that T tried to equivocate, and could have tried to fiddle with the gas if not read the riot act. Fortunately it is only heating and hot water which use gas, so one of my loan fan heaters was offered.

    The Gas Supplier is a separate co to the Gas Distributor (has been the case since it was all redone). The Gas Supplier (who send bills and run the account) refused to discuss anything 'without the spoken consent of the account holder". I could just have lied and impersonated but if that blows back it is serious. "I can't make a note of this call on the account, because without the account holders consent I cannot access it."

    The Gas Distributor, on being told the words from the Gas Engineer ('no gas coming through, unable to complete safety check, supply closed off, tenant has no gas, Gas Engineer suspects the regulator valve in the meter has died'), they had an engineer there in half an hour who capped it off properly rather than just closing it at the meter as the gas Engineer had done.

    But it is the supplier who replaces the meter, and we need them to respond before T can have his gas supply back.

    I hate gas; the downside if something goes really wrong is just too serious.

    That is the sort of situation where self-managing landlords 200 miles away come a cropper, and you need a full service lettings agent. That is what has happened with one of these illegal Residential Homes for children that came out this week; one of the owners lives in Spain or somewhere and he relied on "not present" as his excuse for children being abused in his business by criminals employed to work there.

    Gas fitter. Not engineer.
    In the UK the regulated term is Gas Engineer, I think.

    A white collar professional who designs 'gas systems' would be a Chartered Engineer.
    Would an engineer who decides to connect the gas to the electricity to see what happens be a Certified Engineer?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,068
    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Or alternatively, certain types of well-managed neurodiversity/SEND correlate with incredibly high academic achievement. The key word being well-managed.

    Anecdote: back in the 90s, when I was a postgrad in Cambridge, a friend of mine was a pastoral tutor at one of the colleges, and was sent on some training on autism. We concluded that the checklist she was given applied to basically everyone we knew, even the relatively normal ones.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,070
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    So how much is their education costing in total.

    £5K a head, per year, for the difference between university and functional illiteracy sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

    For a start, they have a good chance of being net tax payers.

    Which would help fund £5k a head…
    Not a bad point.

    If they have 6 teachers like me (I think that's the average for GCSE bearing in mind several of us teach more than one subject) then it's about £30,000 a year per pupil. Plus admin.

    If we had smaller class sizes paid for at £15,000 per year per pupil we might still get the desirable outcome at half the cost.

    And better outcomes for everyone else too.
    The private schools for SEND cost what a year?

    I know of one that is very successful in turning things around - £40k. Very small class sizes is their thing.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,097
    edited 7:40AM
    Some interesting posts on send this morning, and it doesn't sound like the governments changes will deliver.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,833
    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    edited 7:39AM

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    So how much is their education costing in total.

    £5K a head, per year, for the difference between university and functional illiteracy sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

    For a start, they have a good chance of being net tax payers.

    Which would help fund £5k a head…
    Not a bad point.

    If they have 6 teachers like me (I think that's the average for GCSE bearing in mind several of us teach more than one subject) then it's about £30,000 a year per pupil. Plus admin.

    If we had smaller class sizes paid for at £15,000 per year per pupil we might still get the desirable outcome at half the cost.

    And better outcomes for everyone else too.
    The private schools for SEND cost what a year?

    I know of one that is very successful in turning things around - £40k. Very small class sizes is their thing.
    Depends on the school, and it varies by - of course! - class sizes. Schools with smaller classes will generally charge more than ones with larger classes.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,091
    ydoethur said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    So what you're saying is, you respect my knowledge but disagree entirely because you are firmly convinced that things were better in the old days? But then talk about Latin and Greek?

    One thing we keep overlooking is that modern comprehensives are essentially designed to be grammar schools in terms of style and content. The problem is that grammar schools were designed, quite deliberately and often rather ineptly, for a very small cohort - no more than a third of children at most, originally much less. Most children with what we would now realise is a SEND condition wouldn't get in, either because they would struggle to read and write or because they couldn't concentrate for long enough to learn.

    This has been seriously exacerbated by Gove's reforms, which essentially rested on the belief that making everyone pass very hard exams makes them cleverer. No, it doesn't. It just makes things much more complicated for everyone.

    I see absolutely no sign Phillipson understands this. In fact in some ways her background is probably a hindrance, because her experience is just as narrow and dogmatically focussed as Gove's but from a different angle.
    I know who I believe, and like on oil and gas , it is the person in the industry not someone who garbles on about how good labour ministers are
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427

    Some interesting posts on send this morning, and it doesn't sound like the governments changes will deliver.

    I think that's one absolute certainty!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,516
    edited 7:44AM
    One does have to wonder where all the money goes. Our experience in the 2000s was the reverse of the Unipart "the answer is yes" ad from the 1970s. "The answer is no, now what is the question?"

    When my son was at primary school severe autism was something alien to the local authority bean counters. It does seem now that any child who says they feel sad or are naughty are labelled with ASD or ADHD.

    There wasn't enough to go around when no one "had" autism. It must be impossible now everyone has.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,097
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

    I think if some aliens did a detailed study of human behaviour they would be bewildered by the school curriculum and why it (largely) excludes parenting, health, fitness, nutrition, and personal finance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217

    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Or alternatively, certain types of well-managed neurodiversity/SEND correlate with incredibly high academic achievement. The key word being well-managed.

    Anecdote: back in the 90s, when I was a postgrad in Cambridge, a friend of mine was a pastoral tutor at one of the colleges, and was sent on some training on autism. We concluded that the checklist she was given applied to basically everyone we knew, even the relatively normal ones.
    Some truth in that, you are unlikely to have got into Oxbridge without a few traits on the autism scale to be of that high intelligence, even if not enough for a full diagnosis
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,833
    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    The biggest error after lockdown was no none having the balls to say to all kids impacted was that school year 2019 2020 in particular was going to be repeated for all and an extra year added on to compensate.

    There would have been upheaval and big cost, but in the context of the corrupt costbof so much Johnson did, which will come to light fully in the years ahead, would have been a price worth paying.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Or alternatively, certain types of well-managed neurodiversity/SEND correlate with incredibly high academic achievement. The key word being well-managed.

    Anecdote: back in the 90s, when I was a postgrad in Cambridge, a friend of mine was a pastoral tutor at one of the colleges, and was sent on some training on autism. We concluded that the checklist she was given applied to basically everyone we knew, even the relatively normal ones.
    Some truth in that, you are unlikely to have got into Oxbridge without a few traits on the autism scale to be of that high intelligence, even if not enough for a full diagnosis
    Your regular reminder that both Richard Burgon and Amanda Spielman were at Cambridge.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217
    edited 7:45AM
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

    No reason you can’t teach those as well as the classics
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,815
    Thanks for the thread and the insight @ydoethur .

    One of my family was a regional bod at Ofsted, retired at 60, and now travels Europe on her inflation-proofed pension to see Italian opera. The Ofsted modus, she told me, was to support teachers rather than criticise. Was this an indication that it's the system to blame rather than the individuals? Teachers seem to be under an enormous amount of scrutiny which is only increasing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 60,781
    Brixian59 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    The biggest error after lockdown was no none having the balls to say to all kids impacted was that school year 2019 2020 in particular was going to be repeated for all and an extra year added on to compensate.

    There would have been upheaval and big cost, but in the context of the corrupt costbof so much Johnson did, which will come to light fully in the years ahead, would have been a price worth paying.
    What would the kids who were supposed to start school that year have done though, another year of daycare rather than school?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,791
    .

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    One of the original ideas of academies was to allow diversity and experimentation in school provision.
    It really doesn't seem to have worked out that way.

    I get that there's a reluctance to use children as guinea pigs in experiments, but we're effectively doing that anyway, except running only one single, rather deeply flawed mass experiment.
    I have no problem with excellent local managers doing amazing things with their schools.

    I have huge problems with academies as run. Many are doing amazing things to fragment the system, extract big operating costs for themselves and driving up procurement costs for all the things that all academies need but are now being bought separately.
    A decent idea in principle, the whole thing became fairly pointless soon after its inception.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,097

    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Or alternatively, certain types of well-managed neurodiversity/SEND correlate with incredibly high academic achievement. The key word being well-managed.

    Anecdote: back in the 90s, when I was a postgrad in Cambridge, a friend of mine was a pastoral tutor at one of the colleges, and was sent on some training on autism. We concluded that the checklist she was given applied to basically everyone we knew, even the relatively normal ones.
    If you are a normal teenager there are better things to do than qualify for Stanford!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    Brixian59 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    That, at least so far as SEND is concerned, is something not borne out by my experience. Rather, what lockdown did was demonstrate to rather large numbers of children who don't fit into the DfE's little boxes that there was a better way to learn than being forced into a noisy, confused, badly heated environment. And when they were told they had to give this better way up, they decided, entirely logically, that they wouldn't.

    I'm working with eight children right now who have refused to go back into school since lockdown (now five years in the past). All of them were doing appallingly badly in school and all of them in home schooling are now doing extremely well despite a variety of complex needs. As in, couldn't read or write before lockdown and now we're considering which unis they should go to.

    So my question - I'm quite happy to work with these children and take the somewhat north of forty grand a year their LEAs are paying me, but wouldn't it be better to sort out the school environments so they could reintegrate and that money be shared among maybe 15 children rather than just spent on eight?
    The biggest error after lockdown was no none having the balls to say to all kids impacted was that school year 2019 2020 in particular was going to be repeated for all and an extra year added on to compensate.

    There would have been upheaval and big cost, but in the context of the corrupt costbof so much Johnson did, which will come to light fully in the years ahead, would have been a price worth paying.
    The big error after lockdown was that nobody took a long hard look at all the problems it exposed (note - exposed, not caused). The outsize classes, the patchiness of specialist provision, the poor quality buildings with inadequate ventilation, the uneven performance of digital materials.

    Instead they were all hurriedly brushed under the carpet and any issues arising were labelled as the result of lockdown rather than a symptom of years of mismanagement.

    The most enduring central legacy of lockdown was Oak National Academy, which the DfE took over from the group that pioneered it to provide 'high quality bespoke lessons' for every school (that couldn't get teachers, although that part was left unsaid). The lessons are dreadful. I took some information sheets off them the other week for an reading comprehension exercise and I had to run them through an AI model to simplify the language for an average 14 year old - it looked nothing like the original. And the PowerPoint resources were a pain to adapt to a different colour background because of their fancy formatting (I didn't bother, just writing my own - it was quicker).

    This speaks to me as a very minor example of a wider problem - the government has no idea of what things are actually like and is very anxious not to know because they don't want to admit how badly they've screwed up. It's much easier to blame over diagnosis of SEND than say, well if we've got all this SEND maybe there's something wrong with what we're doing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,452
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    My experience I am afraid is that if anything the problems are underdiagnosed.

    The government claims otherwise because it doesn't want to spend the money.

    Again, therefore, we come back to, should we not rather be asking why there's so damn much SEND about and why it's so expensive, and whether the fault is in the actual system?

    Edit - which is actually not far off what the review says, once the government spin has been stripped out. They say schools are increasingly becoming intolerably stressful environments, and the preferred way (indeed the only way, in many cases) of treating that has been a medical diagnosis.

    Would it not be more sensible to treat the cause rather than suppress the symptom?
    I’m sure both can be right. Micro v Macro.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,791
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Or alternatively, certain types of well-managed neurodiversity/SEND correlate with incredibly high academic achievement. The key word being well-managed.

    Anecdote: back in the 90s, when I was a postgrad in Cambridge, a friend of mine was a pastoral tutor at one of the colleges, and was sent on some training on autism. We concluded that the checklist she was given applied to basically everyone we knew, even the relatively normal ones.
    Some truth in that, you are unlikely to have got into Oxbridge without a few traits on the autism scale to be of that high intelligence, even if not enough for a full diagnosis
    Your regular reminder that both Richard Burgon and Amanda Spielman were at Cambridge.
    Amanda being a most inappropriate gerundive.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    Battlebus said:

    Thanks for the thread and the insight @ydoethur .

    One of my family was a regional bod at Ofsted, retired at 60, and now travels Europe on her inflation-proofed pension to see Italian opera. The Ofsted modus, she told me, was to support teachers rather than criticise. Was this an indication that it's the system to blame rather than the individuals? Teachers seem to be under an enormous amount of scrutiny which is only increasing.

    @Northern_Al would be able to guide you on that point better than I could, but my outside impression is that it depends very much on who was in charge at the time. In around 2007-12 it seemed to be more supportive than punitive, but that certainly wasn't the case under Woodhead, a failed teacher smarting from being twice sacked who was on an ego trip, or Spielman who was a megalomaniac with zero knowledge of what she was doing.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 17,086
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

    I'd definitely be in favour of broad Home and Family management lessons. I was lucky enough to learn stuff like that at home when younger but had I not, i'd be buggered now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,516
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Or alternatively, certain types of well-managed neurodiversity/SEND correlate with incredibly high academic achievement. The key word being well-managed.

    Anecdote: back in the 90s, when I was a postgrad in Cambridge, a friend of mine was a pastoral tutor at one of the colleges, and was sent on some training on autism. We concluded that the checklist she was given applied to basically everyone we knew, even the relatively normal ones.
    Some truth in that, you are unlikely to have got into Oxbridge without a few traits on the autism scale to be of that high intelligence, even if not enough for a full diagnosis
    You have no idea what autism means either in principle or for the individual. It's not all about people who are self proclaimed to be a bit edgy like Leon, or people who are a bit odd like Theresa May or people who are so focused on one particular objective that they disregard all else ( although that particular example is definitely a trait).

    The biggest issue for people like my son is debilitating social function. The inability to communicate effectively and the inability to socialise to the point of making friends. People don't like my son because he is socially awkward, they don't like me because I am an awkward c***. Other issues might stem from the social awkwardness like learning problems and in some cases behavioural issues, perhaps out of frustration.

    I am glad I am just a c*** and not autistic. It is a lot easier to negotiate one's way through life.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,217

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Or alternatively, certain types of well-managed neurodiversity/SEND correlate with incredibly high academic achievement. The key word being well-managed.

    Anecdote: back in the 90s, when I was a postgrad in Cambridge, a friend of mine was a pastoral tutor at one of the colleges, and was sent on some training on autism. We concluded that the checklist she was given applied to basically everyone we knew, even the relatively normal ones.
    Some truth in that, you are unlikely to have got into Oxbridge without a few traits on the autism scale to be of that high intelligence, even if not enough for a full diagnosis
    You have no idea what autism means either in principle or for the individual. It's not all about people who are self proclaimed to be a bit edgy like Leon, or people who are a bit odd like Theresa May or people who are so focused on one particular objective that they disregard all else ( although that particular example is definitely a trait).

    The biggest issue for people like my son is debilitating social function. The inability to communicate effectively and the inability to socialise to the point of making friends. People don't like my son because he is socially awkward, they don't like me because I am an awkward c***. Other issues might stem from the social awkwardness like learning problems and in some cases behavioural issues, perhaps out of frustration.

    I am glad I am just a c*** and not autistic. It is a lot easier to negotiate one's way through life.
    So your son has the full diagnosis, May doesn't but is probably on the autism scale as is Starmer with a few traits of it
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,070
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

    Nearly no one studies the classics in state schools. The idea that there is a vast spend on that is as stupid as the belief that pensioners on the state pension alone are rolling in money.

    There are a total of about 8500 GCSE entries in Latin for all schools, each year. That includes private.

    Out of 5.8 million GCSE entries (approx)

    So around 0.14% of GCSE entries.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,476
    Aren’t we in danger of over diagnosing children , similarly the huge increase in adults being diagnosed with mental health issues .

    It’s of course good that there’s less stigma now but it seems to have gone too far the other way .

    Maybe the NHS should prescribe “ Man’s Search for Ultimate Meaning “ by Viktor Frankl as many seem to be suffering from existential neurosis .

    It’s not a surprise that we can correlate the huge increase in mental health problems with the similar increase in social media and the internet in general.

    In a desperate attempt to put people in boxes , and people seeking others to reinforce their view that they have a mental health problem .

    It feeds itself and as a nation we’re in danger of talking ourselves into a mental health crisis .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    edited 8:08AM

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

    Nearly no one studies the classics in state schools. The idea that there is a vast spend on that is as stupid as the belief that pensioners on the state pension alone are rolling in money.

    There are a total of about 8500 GCSE entries in Latin for all schools, each year. That includes private.

    Out of 5.8 million GCSE entries (approx)

    So around 0.14% of GCSE entries.
    Even if we add Classical Civilisations and Ancient History the total barely creeps over 1%. And I would guess most of those are taught it as an extra at lunchtimes or after school.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,958
    FPT:
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it's time to cut £40bn from welfare and build a properly independent nuclear deterrent and properly fund defence. We can no longer rely on the US regardless of who is in the White House. The Trident programme made sense in an era when the UK and US were inseparable in terms of our global aims but now that is no longer the case. We cannot be beholden to what I would term as an informal ally for such a crucial part of our defence posture.

    It's a truly sad state of affairs when the US and UK can no longer say they have the same outlook on the world regardless of who occupies No 10 or the White House. That partnership has been the cornerstone of the post war consensus and now it seems to be broken beyond repair. I think America is going to quickly realise it's a cold world out there and even though it maintains defence primacy, life without friends and allies is much tougher than MAGA and other isolationists realise. Thralldom may suit some countries but I think we need to start planning for a world in which we will need to defend our own interests without an implicit guarantee from American military might.

    Welfare and pensions are not affordable in this new era and both will need substantial cuts.

    On you final point we can't just let the old, the infirmed, the disabled, the poor to live in abject poverty. We have to offer voluntary euthanasia like we would an old dog or cat at the end of their life.

    Alternatively the World and more specifically Britain could operate a society where the top one percent don't own 90% of wealth, or whatever the figure is these days.

    The peasants need to revolt like they did in the French, the Russian and the Iranian revolutions. The outcomes of each may not have been optimal after the revolutions but your remedy is no better.
    The UK has one of the biggest welfare states in the world and the top 10% only own 43% of UK wealth not 90% (whereas in the US now the top 10% own 67% of the nation's wealth)

    https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/
    Have I ever suggested that the UK welfare state is not expensive and overburdens the middle income tax payer? No I haven't.

    What I said in a nutshell is if you are going to ensure the poorest are even poorer you need to offer them a way out.

    I would much prefer as Robert suggested people are given the opportunity to make their own way in life.

    What is the point of Musk, Bezos and Zuckerberg owning everything and the rest of us living in the gutter?

    The argument isn't about closing libraries in Wolverhampton, it is about overhauling the current capitalist system.
    The three very wealthy men named all derive that wealth from shares in companies they founded, and worked bloody hard at for decades before they ever made a profit.

    The problem isn’t a few rich people, it’s governments robbing Peter to pay Paul, and their being enough Pauls to keep voting for the handouts.

    UK government also hasn’t balanced their budget since 2001, when one Gordon Brown divorced Prudence and turned on the spending taps hard. There’s now effectively a mortgage to be serviced, a debt of 2.5x annual government income of money that’s already been spent.

    The only solution is a serious reduction in the scope of government and serious cuts in what remains. See Javier Millei in Argentina, for perhaps the only recent example of a large economy doing what’s required without the IMF getting involved.
    I'm genuinely fascinated by those who are able to hold the viewpoints that Sandpit and Fishing shared on the last thread.

    I know it is economic orthodoxy to argue this way but it also appears to me highly blinkered.

    Just to take the first paragraph of the post above: the logic of it is that anyone could become a Musk, Bezos or Zuckerberg if only they got off their arses. This is patently false; whilst these three did work bloody hard they were also bloody lucky. There are many, many more multitudes of people who found companies that fold.

    The thing about that luck is that you have to make use of it. That takes talent and balls. But it also requires either (a) the security of knowing that you have a genuine safety net if it fails or (b) an attitude to risk that may not be optimal for the social value of the asset you create.

    Fishing's argument is equally blinkered: 'people's money is their own'. No it isn't. It is taking advantage of enormously valuable public goods such as education, health, roads and the rule of law to leverage a quite ludicrous accrual of personal wealth. Remove eg laws protecting that wealth and that person would have their wealth forcibly removed from them (or spend significant proportions of it on a private army to defend their wealth).

    One interesting social policy question is how to create the sort of safety net that will allow more talented people to take risks, without creating a handout culture that reduces people's propensity to take risks.

    One interesting economic policy question is how to reorient the economy to reward productive risk taking rather than just speculation.

    What I find blinkered is that almost everyone who argues the way Sandpit and Fishing do come from relative wealth, and so don't really understand the risk side of the risk/reward balance that an entrepreneur makes.

    (This is not a comment on Sandpit or Fishing personally as I don't know enough about their backgrounds to make such a comment).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,516
    Battlebus said:

    Thanks for the thread and the insight @ydoethur .

    One of my family was a regional bod at Ofsted, retired at 60, and now travels Europe on her inflation-proofed pension to see Italian opera. The Ofsted modus, she told me, was to support teachers rather than criticise. Was this an indication that it's the system to blame rather than the individuals? Teachers seem to be under an enormous amount of scrutiny which is only increasing.

    There seemed to me to be a societal change during austerity. I have said many times those implementing austerity knew the price of everything and the value of nothing. And so it seems the culture changed (and not just in the public sector) to one of the harder we kick people the harder they work. If we tell people doing a good job that they are useless they will not just give 100% but 15O%. The upshot? People like Ruth ( can't remember her surname) think to themselves "I've given my all to my work and some aggressive little jobsworth bean counter is beating me up for minimal reason and castigating me with no justification and threatening my life's work. I give up!"
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,097

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

    Nearly no one studies the classics in state schools. The idea that there is a vast spend on that is as stupid as the belief that pensioners on the state pension alone are rolling in money.

    There are a total of about 8500 GCSE entries in Latin for all schools, each year. That includes private.

    Out of 5.8 million GCSE entries (approx)

    So around 0.14% of GCSE entries.
    Quod erat demonstrandum
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 60,781
    edited 8:26AM
    maxh said:

    FPT:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it's time to cut £40bn from welfare and build a properly independent nuclear deterrent and properly fund defence. We can no longer rely on the US regardless of who is in the White House. The Trident programme made sense in an era when the UK and US were inseparable in terms of our global aims but now that is no longer the case. We cannot be beholden to what I would term as an informal ally for such a crucial part of our defence posture.

    It's a truly sad state of affairs when the US and UK can no longer say they have the same outlook on the world regardless of who occupies No 10 or the White House. That partnership has been the cornerstone of the post war consensus and now it seems to be broken beyond repair. I think America is going to quickly realise it's a cold world out there and even though it maintains defence primacy, life without friends and allies is much tougher than MAGA and other isolationists realise. Thralldom may suit some countries but I think we need to start planning for a world in which we will need to defend our own interests without an implicit guarantee from American military might.

    Welfare and pensions are not affordable in this new era and both will need substantial cuts.

    On you final point we can't just let the old, the infirmed, the disabled, the poor to live in abject poverty. We have to offer voluntary euthanasia like we would an old dog or cat at the end of their life.

    Alternatively the World and more specifically Britain could operate a society where the top one percent don't own 90% of wealth, or whatever the figure is these days.

    The peasants need to revolt like they did in the French, the Russian and the Iranian revolutions. The outcomes of each may not have been optimal after the revolutions but your remedy is no better.
    The UK has one of the biggest welfare states in the world and the top 10% only own 43% of UK wealth not 90% (whereas in the US now the top 10% own 67% of the nation's wealth)

    https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/
    Have I ever suggested that the UK welfare state is not expensive and overburdens the middle income tax payer? No I haven't.

    What I said in a nutshell is if you are going to ensure the poorest are even poorer you need to offer them a way out.

    I would much prefer as Robert suggested people are given the opportunity to make their own way in life.

    What is the point of Musk, Bezos and Zuckerberg owning everything and the rest of us living in the gutter?

    The argument isn't about closing libraries in Wolverhampton, it is about overhauling the current capitalist system.
    The three very wealthy men named all derive that wealth from shares in companies they founded, and worked bloody hard at for decades before they ever made a profit.

    The problem isn’t a few rich people, it’s governments robbing Peter to pay Paul, and their being enough Pauls to keep voting for the handouts.

    UK government also hasn’t balanced their budget since 2001, when one Gordon Brown divorced Prudence and turned on the spending taps hard. There’s now effectively a mortgage to be serviced, a debt of 2.5x annual government income of money that’s already been spent.

    The only solution is a serious reduction in the scope of government and serious cuts in what remains. See Javier Millei in Argentina, for perhaps the only recent example of a large economy doing what’s required without the IMF getting involved.
    I'm genuinely fascinated by those who are able to hold the viewpoints that Sandpit and Fishing shared on the last thread.

    I know it is economic orthodoxy to argue this way but it also appears to me highly blinkered.

    Just to take the first paragraph of the post above: the logic of it is that anyone could become a Musk, Bezos or Zuckerberg if only they got off their arses. This is patently false; whilst these three did work bloody hard they were also bloody lucky. There are many, many more multitudes of people who found companies that fold.

    The thing about that luck is that you have to make use of it. That takes talent and balls. But it also requires either (a) the security of knowing that you have a genuine safety net if it fails or (b) an attitude to risk that may not be optimal for the social value of the asset you create.

    Fishing's argument is equally blinkered: 'people's money is their own'. No it isn't. It is taking advantage of enormously valuable public goods such as education, health, roads and the rule of law to leverage a quite ludicrous accrual of personal wealth. Remove eg laws protecting that wealth and that person would have their wealth forcibly removed from them (or spend significant proportions of it on a private army to defend their wealth).

    One interesting social policy question is how to create the sort of safety net that will allow more talented people to take risks, without creating a handout culture that reduces people's propensity to take risks.

    One interesting economic policy question is how to reorient the economy to reward productive risk taking rather than just speculation.

    What I find blinkered is that almost everyone who argues the way Sandpit and Fishing do come from relative wealth, and so don't really understand the risk side of the risk/reward balance that an entrepreneur makes.

    (This is not a comment on Sandpit or Fishing personally as I don't know enough about their backgrounds to make such a comment).
    My comment isn’t that anyone could be a Musk or a Bezos if only they worked harder, it’s that these particular people, with their particular skills, became wealthy because they founded successful companies. As you say there are many more entrepreneurs that take the risk and it doesn’t work out for whatever reason, and usually unconnected to the amount of work put in.

    The very wealthy don’t have billions in the bank though, it’s in their own company shares which would likely crash if they sold them in any significant number.

    That doesn’t make the successful ones just lucky, it means that their particular ideas were the ones which worked best.

    The way to orientate the economy towards risk-taking is to have an attitude that failure doesn’t taint you for life (very different UK vs US attitudes on this one), and for taxes and regulations to encourage people to be entrepreneurs rather than work salaried jobs.

    I’ve worked for myself before, studied some economics, and currently have a middle-class job as an IT manager, definitely not wealthy and not from wealth either.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,097
    Sandpit said:

    maxh said:

    FPT:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it's time to cut £40bn from welfare and build a properly independent nuclear deterrent and properly fund defence. We can no longer rely on the US regardless of who is in the White House. The Trident programme made sense in an era when the UK and US were inseparable in terms of our global aims but now that is no longer the case. We cannot be beholden to what I would term as an informal ally for such a crucial part of our defence posture.

    It's a truly sad state of affairs when the US and UK can no longer say they have the same outlook on the world regardless of who occupies No 10 or the White House. That partnership has been the cornerstone of the post war consensus and now it seems to be broken beyond repair. I think America is going to quickly realise it's a cold world out there and even though it maintains defence primacy, life without friends and allies is much tougher than MAGA and other isolationists realise. Thralldom may suit some countries but I think we need to start planning for a world in which we will need to defend our own interests without an implicit guarantee from American military might.

    Welfare and pensions are not affordable in this new era and both will need substantial cuts.

    On you final point we can't just let the old, the infirmed, the disabled, the poor to live in abject poverty. We have to offer voluntary euthanasia like we would an old dog or cat at the end of their life.

    Alternatively the World and more specifically Britain could operate a society where the top one percent don't own 90% of wealth, or whatever the figure is these days.

    The peasants need to revolt like they did in the French, the Russian and the Iranian revolutions. The outcomes of each may not have been optimal after the revolutions but your remedy is no better.
    The UK has one of the biggest welfare states in the world and the top 10% only own 43% of UK wealth not 90% (whereas in the US now the top 10% own 67% of the nation's wealth)

    https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/
    Have I ever suggested that the UK welfare state is not expensive and overburdens the middle income tax payer? No I haven't.

    What I said in a nutshell is if you are going to ensure the poorest are even poorer you need to offer them a way out.

    I would much prefer as Robert suggested people are given the opportunity to make their own way in life.

    What is the point of Musk, Bezos and Zuckerberg owning everything and the rest of us living in the gutter?

    The argument isn't about closing libraries in Wolverhampton, it is about overhauling the current capitalist system.
    The three very wealthy men named all derive that wealth from shares in companies they founded, and worked bloody hard at for decades before they ever made a profit.

    The problem isn’t a few rich people, it’s governments robbing Peter to pay Paul, and their being enough Pauls to keep voting for the handouts.

    UK government also hasn’t balanced their budget since 2001, when one Gordon Brown divorced Prudence and turned on the spending taps hard. There’s now effectively a mortgage to be serviced, a debt of 2.5x annual government income of money that’s already been spent.

    The only solution is a serious reduction in the scope of government and serious cuts in what remains. See Javier Millei in Argentina, for perhaps the only recent example of a large economy doing what’s required without the IMF getting involved.
    I'm genuinely fascinated by those who are able to hold the viewpoints that Sandpit and Fishing shared on the last thread.

    I know it is economic orthodoxy to argue this way but it also appears to me highly blinkered.

    Just to take the first paragraph of the post above: the logic of it is that anyone could become a Musk, Bezos or Zuckerberg if only they got off their arses. This is patently false; whilst these three did work bloody hard they were also bloody lucky. There are many, many more multitudes of people who found companies that fold.

    The thing about that luck is that you have to make use of it. That takes talent and balls. But it also requires either (a) the security of knowing that you have a genuine safety net if it fails or (b) an attitude to risk that may not be optimal for the social value of the asset you create.

    Fishing's argument is equally blinkered: 'people's money is their own'. No it isn't. It is taking advantage of enormously valuable public goods such as education, health, roads and the rule of law to leverage a quite ludicrous accrual of personal wealth. Remove eg laws protecting that wealth and that person would have their wealth forcibly removed from them (or spend significant proportions of it on a private army to defend their wealth).

    One interesting social policy question is how to create the sort of safety net that will allow more talented people to take risks, without creating a handout culture that reduces people's propensity to take risks.

    One interesting economic policy question is how to reorient the economy to reward productive risk taking rather than just speculation.

    What I find blinkered is that almost everyone who argues the way Sandpit and Fishing do come from relative wealth, and so don't really understand the risk side of the risk/reward balance that an entrepreneur makes.

    (This is not a comment on Sandpit or Fishing personally as I don't know enough about their backgrounds to make such a comment).
    My comment isn’t that anyone could be a Musk or a Bezos if only they worked harder, it’s that these particular people, with their particular skills, became wealthy because they founded successful companies. As you say there are many more entrepreneurs that take the risk and it doesn’t work out.

    The very wealthy don’t have billions in the bank though, it’s in their own company shares which would likely crash if they sold them in any significant number.

    That doesn’t make the successful ones just lucky, it means that their particular ideas were the ones which worked best.

    The way to orientate the economy towards risk-taking is to have an attitude that failure doesn’t taint you for life (very different UK vs US attitudes on this one), and for taxes and regulations to encourage people to be entrepreneurs rather than work salaried jobs.

    I’ve worked for myself before, studied some economics, and currently have a middle-class job as an IT manager, definitely not wealthy and not from wealth either.
    Leaving the aside the earnt or moral arguments, the other side is how does it impact the broader society?

    Extreme wealth isn't recycled into the economy as efficiently as normal wealth, it massively drives up asset inflation and is a key driver of media and political manipulation. It should be taxed as a social harm just as we do with tobacco, alcohol and gambling, not from a moral viewpoint, but a practical one.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,751
    edited 8:30AM
    National offer day April 18th, we await to see which school our daughter will head into. Not much choice since we're rural (Our first choice is near her current nursery but out of catchment). My nephew is transitioning from primary to secondary and has got into my brother's first choice ( https://www.corley.thrive.ac/ ) which matches his needs. And my eldest niece is shortly to make my brother a Grandad :D so she'll have to navigate the whole nursery/school system shortly...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,516
    edited 8:30AM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great header and one that is close to home as we're a family gifted with autism. Our failings in education are barely believable - a system which is both fragmented and thus high cost *and* centrally dictated.

    Worse are the parallel failings in health. A literal postcode lottery in diagnosis where the difference in reaction time from one street to the next across a boundary can be measured in years.

    There is a political narrative that "all these extra SEND kids must be faking it / parents on the take / it's just woke". Or - radically - it was always there, we can now actively do something to help, and we have broken a whole generation of kids with lockdown.

    We either get this right, now, or that generation will grow up and not be the thriving educated productive adults the older generation making these decisions will need to pay their pensions...

    Chunks of the left have taken up the “SEND is a swindle by rich people” mantra.

    It would be fun to study the flows of such beliefs between left and right.
    “40% of Stanford students claim to be disabled”

    https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/40-percent-stanford-undergraduates-claim-disabled-sw99r3k8c

    I suspect there’s a lot of truth to the claims of both left and right on the subject, but the bottom line is that half the class can’t all be “Special”.
    Or alternatively, certain types of well-managed neurodiversity/SEND correlate with incredibly high academic achievement. The key word being well-managed.

    Anecdote: back in the 90s, when I was a postgrad in Cambridge, a friend of mine was a pastoral tutor at one of the colleges, and was sent on some training on autism. We concluded that the checklist she was given applied to basically everyone we knew, even the relatively normal ones.
    Some truth in that, you are unlikely to have got into Oxbridge without a few traits on the autism scale to be of that high intelligence, even if not enough for a full diagnosis
    You have no idea what autism means either in principle or for the individual. It's not all about people who are self proclaimed to be a bit edgy like Leon, or people who are a bit odd like Theresa May or people who are so focused on one particular objective that they disregard all else ( although that particular example is definitely a trait).

    The biggest issue for people like my son is debilitating social function. The inability to communicate effectively and the inability to socialise to the point of making friends. People don't like my son because he is socially awkward, they don't like me because I am an awkward c***. Other issues might stem from the social awkwardness like learning problems and in some cases behavioural issues, perhaps out of frustration.

    I am glad I am just a c*** and not autistic. It is a lot easier to negotiate one's way through life.
    So your son has the full diagnosis, May doesn't but is probably on the autism scale as is Starmer with a few traits of it
    It's got nothing to do with who has a diagnosis or not. I am saying May is not qualified to be diagnosed as autistic. She is mildly socially awkward. Her awkwardness can be a mild embarrassment from time to time, but it isn't ruining her life, so intervention wouldn't be of benefit.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,206
    Up to the age of 18 I share(d) some traits with high functioning autism/Asperger’s syndrome.

    When I started at university I wasn’t the gobby and cocky bastard I am today.

    I struggled to maintain eye contact with females when I started at university (I went to an all boys school and I was raised in a devout Muslim household) but most of my closest friends are female since uni.

    I worry if I was born 40 years later if I would have been misdiagnosed.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,055

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

    I'd definitely be in favour of broad Home and Family management lessons. I was lucky enough to learn stuff like that at home when younger but had I not, i'd be buggered now.
    It's pretty shocking what a lot of people don't know. Smart people with decent jobs.

    My wife was astonished when she had a balance on her credit card and was charged interest as she thought she'd 'done the right thing' by making the specified minimum payments and didn't get why she was,as she saw it, being fined. She has a first class degree and PhD.

    We could do with teaching people then basics of loans, inflation, mortgages etc and basic family finances.

    Cooking and basic home maintenance, for sure.

    Parenting we could probably cover too, but it's a lot less one size fits all. My mother in law's solution to all problems is a star chart - it has solved precisely no problems (first child it came into potty training, he soon learned to game the system with tactical wees; second child it did nothing to avert panic attack style pre-swimming-lesson meltdowns). In both cases, the real solutions differed and varied between the children. There probably are some basics though, but maybe could be covered as an extension of ante-natal classes - nearer to the time, more relevant, more remembered.

    It is right though, that a lot of this should really come from parents, but where that's not happening, it probably makes sense to fill the gap.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 60,781
    Marco Rubio outlining the thinking behind attacking Iran.

    https://x.com/ryansaavedra/status/2039088025746264367

    Only 2 minutes, and gives a good insight into how the Americans are working. And he’s a lot more articulate and considered than Trump!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,055
    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    Qui docet doctores? :wink:
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,097
    Sandpit said:

    Marco Rubio outlining the thinking behind attacking Iran.

    https://x.com/ryansaavedra/status/2039088025746264367

    Only 2 minutes, and gives a good insight into how the Americans are working. And he’s a lot more articulate and considered than Trump!

    I thought the US had set back the Iranian nuclear programme for decades just last year? Were they lying then, now or both?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,516
    ydoethur said:

    Battlebus said:

    Thanks for the thread and the insight @ydoethur .

    One of my family was a regional bod at Ofsted, retired at 60, and now travels Europe on her inflation-proofed pension to see Italian opera. The Ofsted modus, she told me, was to support teachers rather than criticise. Was this an indication that it's the system to blame rather than the individuals? Teachers seem to be under an enormous amount of scrutiny which is only increasing.

    @Northern_Al would be able to guide you on that point better than I could, but my outside impression is that it depends very much on who was in charge at the time. In around 2007-12 it seemed to be more supportive than punitive, but that certainly wasn't the case under Woodhead, a failed teacher smarting from being twice sacked who was on an ego trip, or Spielman who was a megalomaniac with zero knowledge of what she was doing.
    I do wonder how Woodhead managed to fall up, all the way to the top. And when he got there instead of quietly hiding behind his aggressive incompetence increased his personal and political profile to the point where everyone (except those in authority) realised he was a useless c***!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 60,781
    edited 8:47AM

    Sandpit said:

    maxh said:

    FPT:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it's time to cut £40bn from welfare and build a properly independent nuclear deterrent and properly fund defence. We can no longer rely on the US regardless of who is in the White House. The Trident programme made sense in an era when the UK and US were inseparable in terms of our global aims but now that is no longer the case. We cannot be beholden to what I would term as an informal ally for such a crucial part of our defence posture.

    It's a truly sad state of affairs when the US and UK can no longer say they have the same outlook on the world regardless of who occupies No 10 or the White House. That partnership has been the cornerstone of the post war consensus and now it seems to be broken beyond repair. I think America is going to quickly realise it's a cold world out there and even though it maintains defence primacy, life without friends and allies is much tougher than MAGA and other isolationists realise. Thralldom may suit some countries but I think we need to start planning for a world in which we will need to defend our own interests without an implicit guarantee from American military might.

    Welfare and pensions are not affordable in this new era and both will need substantial cuts.

    On you final point we can't just let the old, the infirmed, the disabled, the poor to live in abject poverty. We have to offer voluntary euthanasia like we would an old dog or cat at the end of their life.

    Alternatively the World and more specifically Britain could operate a society where the top one percent don't own 90% of wealth, or whatever the figure is these days.

    The peasants need to revolt like they did in the French, the Russian and the Iranian revolutions. The outcomes of each may not have been optimal after the revolutions but your remedy is no better.
    The UK has one of the biggest welfare states in the world and the top 10% only own 43% of UK wealth not 90% (whereas in the US now the top 10% own 67% of the nation's wealth)

    https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/
    Have I ever suggested that the UK welfare state is not expensive and overburdens the middle income tax payer? No I haven't.

    What I said in a nutshell is if you are going to ensure the poorest are even poorer you need to offer them a way out.

    I would much prefer as Robert suggested people are given the opportunity to make their own way in life.

    What is the point of Musk, Bezos and Zuckerberg owning everything and the rest of us living in the gutter?

    The argument isn't about closing libraries in Wolverhampton, it is about overhauling the current capitalist system.
    The three very wealthy men named all derive that wealth from shares in companies they founded, and worked bloody hard at for decades before they ever made a profit.

    The problem isn’t a few rich people, it’s governments robbing Peter to pay Paul, and their being enough Pauls to keep voting for the handouts.

    UK government also hasn’t balanced their budget since 2001, when one Gordon Brown divorced Prudence and turned on the spending taps hard. There’s now effectively a mortgage to be serviced, a debt of 2.5x annual government income of money that’s already been spent.

    The only solution is a serious reduction in the scope of government and serious cuts in what remains. See Javier Millei in Argentina, for perhaps the only recent example of a large economy doing what’s required without the IMF getting involved.
    I'm genuinely fascinated by those who are able to hold the viewpoints that Sandpit and Fishing shared on the last thread.

    I know it is economic orthodoxy to argue this way but it also appears to me highly blinkered.

    Just to take the first paragraph of the post above: the logic of it is that anyone could become a Musk, Bezos or Zuckerberg if only they got off their arses. This is patently false; whilst these three did work bloody hard they were also bloody lucky. There are many, many more multitudes of people who found companies that fold.

    The thing about that luck is that you have to make use of it. That takes talent and balls. But it also requires either (a) the security of knowing that you have a genuine safety net if it fails or (b) an attitude to risk that may not be optimal for the social value of the asset you create.

    Fishing's argument is equally blinkered: 'people's money is their own'. No it isn't. It is taking advantage of enormously valuable public goods such as education, health, roads and the rule of law to leverage a quite ludicrous accrual of personal wealth. Remove eg laws protecting that wealth and that person would have their wealth forcibly removed from them (or spend significant proportions of it on a private army to defend their wealth).

    One interesting social policy question is how to create the sort of safety net that will allow more talented people to take risks, without creating a handout culture that reduces people's propensity to take risks.

    One interesting economic policy question is how to reorient the economy to reward productive risk taking rather than just speculation.

    What I find blinkered is that almost everyone who argues the way Sandpit and Fishing do come from relative wealth, and so don't really understand the risk side of the risk/reward balance that an entrepreneur makes.

    (This is not a comment on Sandpit or Fishing personally as I don't know enough about their backgrounds to make such a comment).
    My comment isn’t that anyone could be a Musk or a Bezos if only they worked harder, it’s that these particular people, with their particular skills, became wealthy because they founded successful companies. As you say there are many more entrepreneurs that take the risk and it doesn’t work out.

    The very wealthy don’t have billions in the bank though, it’s in their own company shares which would likely crash if they sold them in any significant number.

    That doesn’t make the successful ones just lucky, it means that their particular ideas were the ones which worked best.

    The way to orientate the economy towards risk-taking is to have an attitude that failure doesn’t taint you for life (very different UK vs US attitudes on this one), and for taxes and regulations to encourage people to be entrepreneurs rather than work salaried jobs.

    I’ve worked for myself before, studied some economics, and currently have a middle-class job as an IT manager, definitely not wealthy and not from wealth either.
    Leaving the aside the earnt or moral arguments, the other side is how does it impact the broader society?

    Extreme wealth isn't recycled into the economy as efficiently as normal wealth, it massively drives up asset inflation and is a key driver of media and political manipulation. It should be taxed as a social harm just as we do with tobacco, alcohol and gambling, not from a moral viewpoint, but a practical one.
    My point is that ‘extreme wealth’ is not a massive bank account balance, although they will have considerably more than most, it’s simply their shares in the companies they founded. Elon Musk owning $400bn of Tesla shares at today’s market price doesn’t drive inflation, because he’s not spending it.

    Moreover, treating extreme success as a bad thing leads to less investment in new businesses and markets. When 90% of private VC investments fail, those that succeed have to really succeed.

    We agree that money in politics is a huge problem, especially in the US where there are more lobbyists that congress members, those members spend half their time looking for more donors, and a handful of Elon Musks and George Soroses have a disproportionate effect on the discourse. UK is better at regulating direct political donations, but indirect lobbying and funding NGOs is the same. It’s difficult to change it without restrictions on freedom of speech, so the best answer is sunlight and publishing as much financial information as possible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,427
    edited 8:51AM

    ydoethur said:

    Battlebus said:

    Thanks for the thread and the insight @ydoethur .

    One of my family was a regional bod at Ofsted, retired at 60, and now travels Europe on her inflation-proofed pension to see Italian opera. The Ofsted modus, she told me, was to support teachers rather than criticise. Was this an indication that it's the system to blame rather than the individuals? Teachers seem to be under an enormous amount of scrutiny which is only increasing.

    @Northern_Al would be able to guide you on that point better than I could, but my outside impression is that it depends very much on who was in charge at the time. In around 2007-12 it seemed to be more supportive than punitive, but that certainly wasn't the case under Woodhead, a failed teacher smarting from being twice sacked who was on an ego trip, or Spielman who was a megalomaniac with zero knowledge of what she was doing.
    I do wonder how Woodhead managed to fall up, all the way to the top. And when he got there instead of quietly hiding behind his aggressive incompetence increased his personal and political profile to the point where everyone (except those in authority) realised he was a useless c***!
    That's not quite fair. Blunkett knew he was a useless Tristram, although weather he realised it for the right reason is another question. It's one reason why he manoeuvred him out of the role.

    What he did have, according to those acquaintances he and I have in common, was an astonishing gift of the gab. It meant he could interview amazingly well and schmooze those in power even though he was no good. And, of course, meant he was brilliant at interviews.

    Which I would say was well supported by the evidence of his media work.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,745
    nico67 said:

    Aren’t we in danger of over diagnosing children , similarly the huge increase in adults being diagnosed with mental health issues .

    It’s of course good that there’s less stigma now but it seems to have gone too far the other way .

    Maybe the NHS should prescribe “ Man’s Search for Ultimate Meaning “ by Viktor Frankl as many seem to be suffering from existential neurosis .

    It’s not a surprise that we can correlate the huge increase in mental health problems with the similar increase in social media and the internet in general.

    In a desperate attempt to put people in boxes , and people seeking others to reinforce their view that they have a mental health problem .

    It feeds itself and as a nation we’re in danger of talking ourselves into a mental health crisis .

    I wonder how many children categorised as SEND are just not suited to academic life. In the past, there were plenty of non academic jobs in factories, shipyards, steelworks and mines. Many of those have disappeared, and many of those remaining need computer and writing skills that weren’t needed in the past. Added to that, the necessity to obtain often irrelevant qualifications place added pressure on children. And yet we don’t teach the necessary life skills advocated by @Brixian59. We need a rethink.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,516
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    maxh said:

    FPT:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it's time to cut £40bn from welfare and build a properly independent nuclear deterrent and properly fund defence. We can no longer rely on the US regardless of who is in the White House. The Trident programme made sense in an era when the UK and US were inseparable in terms of our global aims but now that is no longer the case. We cannot be beholden to what I would term as an informal ally for such a crucial part of our defence posture.

    It's a truly sad state of affairs when the US and UK can no longer say they have the same outlook on the world regardless of who occupies No 10 or the White House. That partnership has been the cornerstone of the post war consensus and now it seems to be broken beyond repair. I think America is going to quickly realise it's a cold world out there and even though it maintains defence primacy, life without friends and allies is much tougher than MAGA and other isolationists realise. Thralldom may suit some countries but I think we need to start planning for a world in which we will need to defend our own interests without an implicit guarantee from American military might.

    Welfare and pensions are not affordable in this new era and both will need substantial cuts.

    On you final point we can't just let the old, the infirmed, the disabled, the poor to live in abject poverty. We have to offer voluntary euthanasia like we would an old dog or cat at the end of their life.

    Alternatively the World and more specifically Britain could operate a society where the top one percent don't own 90% of wealth, or whatever the figure is these days.

    The peasants need to revolt like they did in the French, the Russian and the Iranian revolutions. The outcomes of each may not have been optimal after the revolutions but your remedy is no better.
    The UK has one of the biggest welfare states in the world and the top 10% only own 43% of UK wealth not 90% (whereas in the US now the top 10% own 67% of the nation's wealth)

    https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/
    Have I ever suggested that the UK welfare state is not expensive and overburdens the middle income tax payer? No I haven't.

    What I said in a nutshell is if you are going to ensure the poorest are even poorer you need to offer them a way out.

    I would much prefer as Robert suggested people are given the opportunity to make their own way in life.

    What is the point of Musk, Bezos and Zuckerberg owning everything and the rest of us living in the gutter?

    The argument isn't about closing libraries in Wolverhampton, it is about overhauling the current capitalist system.
    The three very wealthy men named all derive that wealth from shares in companies they founded, and worked bloody hard at for decades before they ever made a profit.

    The problem isn’t a few rich people, it’s governments robbing Peter to pay Paul, and their being enough Pauls to keep voting for the handouts.

    UK government also hasn’t balanced their budget since 2001, when one Gordon Brown divorced Prudence and turned on the spending taps hard. There’s now effectively a mortgage to be serviced, a debt of 2.5x annual government income of money that’s already been spent.

    The only solution is a serious reduction in the scope of government and serious cuts in what remains. See Javier Millei in Argentina, for perhaps the only recent example of a large economy doing what’s required without the IMF getting involved.
    I'm genuinely fascinated by those who are able to hold the viewpoints that Sandpit and Fishing shared on the last thread.

    I know it is economic orthodoxy to argue this way but it also appears to me highly blinkered.

    Just to take the first paragraph of the post above: the logic of it is that anyone could become a Musk, Bezos or Zuckerberg if only they got off their arses. This is patently false; whilst these three did work bloody hard they were also bloody lucky. There are many, many more multitudes of people who found companies that fold.

    The thing about that luck is that you have to make use of it. That takes talent and balls. But it also requires either (a) the security of knowing that you have a genuine safety net if it fails or (b) an attitude to risk that may not be optimal for the social value of the asset you create.

    Fishing's argument is equally blinkered: 'people's money is their own'. No it isn't. It is taking advantage of enormously valuable public goods such as education, health, roads and the rule of law to leverage a quite ludicrous accrual of personal wealth. Remove eg laws protecting that wealth and that person would have their wealth forcibly removed from them (or spend significant proportions of it on a private army to defend their wealth).

    One interesting social policy question is how to create the sort of safety net that will allow more talented people to take risks, without creating a handout culture that reduces people's propensity to take risks.

    One interesting economic policy question is how to reorient the economy to reward productive risk taking rather than just speculation.

    What I find blinkered is that almost everyone who argues the way Sandpit and Fishing do come from relative wealth, and so don't really understand the risk side of the risk/reward balance that an entrepreneur makes.

    (This is not a comment on Sandpit or Fishing personally as I don't know enough about their backgrounds to make such a comment).
    My comment isn’t that anyone could be a Musk or a Bezos if only they worked harder, it’s that these particular people, with their particular skills, became wealthy because they founded successful companies. As you say there are many more entrepreneurs that take the risk and it doesn’t work out.

    The very wealthy don’t have billions in the bank though, it’s in their own company shares which would likely crash if they sold them in any significant number.

    That doesn’t make the successful ones just lucky, it means that their particular ideas were the ones which worked best.

    The way to orientate the economy towards risk-taking is to have an attitude that failure doesn’t taint you for life (very different UK vs US attitudes on this one), and for taxes and regulations to encourage people to be entrepreneurs rather than work salaried jobs.

    I’ve worked for myself before, studied some economics, and currently have a middle-class job as an IT manager, definitely not wealthy and not from wealth either.
    Leaving the aside the earnt or moral arguments, the other side is how does it impact the broader society?

    Extreme wealth isn't recycled into the economy as efficiently as normal wealth, it massively drives up asset inflation and is a key driver of media and political manipulation. It should be taxed as a social harm just as we do with tobacco, alcohol and gambling, not from a moral viewpoint, but a practical one.
    My point is that ‘extreme wealth’ is not a massive bank account balance, although they will have considerably more than most, it’s simply their shares in the companies they founded. Elon Musk owning $400bn of Tesla shares at today’s market price doesn’t drive inflation, because he’s not spending it.

    Moreover, treating extreme success as a bad thing leads to less investment in new businesses and markets. When 90% of private VC investments fail, those that succeed have to really succeed.

    We agree that money in politics is a huge problem, especially in the US where there are more lobbyists that congress members, those members spend half their time looking for more donors, and a handful of Elon Musks and George Soroses have a disproportionate effect on the discourse. UK is better at regulating direct political donations, but indirect lobbying and funding NGOs is the same. It’s difficult to change it without restrictions on freedom of speech, so the best answer is sunlight and publishing as much financial information as possible.
    Well done for entering George Soros into the conversation.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 17,086
    Selebian said:

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    Taz said:

    Overdiagnosis does not help either.

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2039210662296006869?s=61

    100% this.

    We have as a Nation have to have very serious questions about the definition of SEND, the causes for the rise in more moderate conditions and to ensure those who VERY clearly need help and support get it, but that (as is increasingly the case across welfare) those who see it as a cash cow or easy life, cannot piggy back at great cost to the detriment of those most in need.

    Personally, I think that Bridget Phillipsone with her background, is doing an excellent job overall and far better than some Education Secretaries. I would actually question IF this very topic though sits more within the NHS / Health remit rather than Education. I do understand that some conversations were had about that.

    The big missing for me is PARENTING!

    Parenting Skills are not taught in Schools. Parenting Skills didn't used to be needed to be taught in Schools as Parents would teach their children having been taught by their parents and grand-parents were always on hand to support their children and their grandchildren.

    If society (not any political party or affilaition to any political party) is happy to allow 4 and 5 year olds to have to be to be blunt, shit and piss in a toilet as opposed to a nappy, what chance have we got. This issue is a fundamental part of parenting and also nusery education and Phillipsons valiant efforts to recreate a version of Sure Start (the criminal destruction of which by Cameron and Osborne in 2010 was a heinous act) is to be warmly applaued but parenting begins at home, and it is time to actually teach those skills to ALL as a curriculum subject at 13 or 14 onwards. One of many real life skills like ( home budgeting, basic home economics skills) that are far more relevant than Latin, Greek, some obscure language of some sciences.

    If children can be assesed at 3 or 4 at the latest, as opposed to 5 and 6, we may better understand the issues , better channel the resources, better reduce the waste and cost and better help those who really need the most support, the most support.

    The cross Party support for a significant reduction in screen time - especially for under 5-6 year old may also see a linked improvement. If they are shitting in a nappy at 4 or 5, they should surely be taught those skills before being taught how to log on!

    There is one word in "parenting" that seems to have been completely lost.

    NO
    NO
    NO

    Too often the opt out is to allow kids to do what they want because it's easier than saying NO - back to parenting skills or the lack of them.

    I 100% respect the knowledge of the author and the article but we have to go right back to basics I believe TOUGH LOVE as a way to identify real problems early and not allow bad parenting to lead to some who are on SEND and shouldn't be or needn't be to be pigeonholed before they ever start proper main stream education.

    Try finding a state school that teaches Latin let alone Greek beyond a grammar otherwise good points
    The point I'm making is some subjects need totally removing. Greek and Latin more obscure examples.

    Home Economics
    Parenting Skills
    Home Financing
    Behaviour and respect

    Clearly need to be now taught at at school as parenting skills as parenting skills handed down generation to generation is clearly not happening.

    I'd definitely be in favour of broad Home and Family management lessons. I was lucky enough to learn stuff like that at home when younger but had I not, i'd be buggered now.
    It's pretty shocking what a lot of people don't know. Smart people with decent jobs.

    My wife was astonished when she had a balance on her credit card and was charged interest as she thought she'd 'done the right thing' by making the specified minimum payments and didn't get why she was,as she saw it, being fined. She has a first class degree and PhD.

    We could do with teaching people then basics of loans, inflation, mortgages etc and basic family finances.

    Cooking and basic home maintenance, for sure.

    Parenting we could probably cover too, but it's a lot less one size fits all. My mother in law's solution to all problems is a star chart - it has solved precisely no problems (first child it came into potty training, he soon learned to game the system with tactical wees; second child it did nothing to avert panic attack style pre-swimming-lesson meltdowns). In both cases, the real solutions differed and varied between the children. There probably are some basics though, but maybe could be covered as an extension of ante-natal classes - nearer to the time, more relevant, more remembered.

    It is right though, that a lot of this should really come from parents, but where that's not happening, it probably makes sense to fill the gap.
    Definitely agree on home mamagement front etc, get the basics drummed in.
    Parenting i cant really offer any thought on as i've not had any offspring
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,791
    edited 8:50AM
    Sandpit said:

    Marco Rubio outlining the thinking behind attacking Iran.

    https://x.com/ryansaavedra/status/2039088025746264367

    Only 2 minutes, and gives a good insight into how the Americans are working. And he’s a lot more articulate and considered than Trump!

    It's post hoc rationalisation of Trump's going to war on an impulse.
    And pretty tendentious stuff.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,097
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Marco Rubio outlining the thinking behind attacking Iran.

    https://x.com/ryansaavedra/status/2039088025746264367

    Only 2 minutes, and gives a good insight into how the Americans are working. And he’s a lot more articulate and considered than Trump!

    It's post hoc rationalisation of Trump's going to war on an impulse.
    And pretty tendentious stuff.
    Its just lies, but at least it doesn't sound completely deranged unlike his boss or the boss of war, so there is that.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,516
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Battlebus said:

    Thanks for the thread and the insight @ydoethur .

    One of my family was a regional bod at Ofsted, retired at 60, and now travels Europe on her inflation-proofed pension to see Italian opera. The Ofsted modus, she told me, was to support teachers rather than criticise. Was this an indication that it's the system to blame rather than the individuals? Teachers seem to be under an enormous amount of scrutiny which is only increasing.

    @Northern_Al would be able to guide you on that point better than I could, but my outside impression is that it depends very much on who was in charge at the time. In around 2007-12 it seemed to be more supportive than punitive, but that certainly wasn't the case under Woodhead, a failed teacher smarting from being twice sacked who was on an ego trip, or Spielman who was a megalomaniac with zero knowledge of what she was doing.
    I do wonder how Woodhead managed to fall up, all the way to the top. And when he got there instead of quietly hiding behind his aggressive incompetence increased his personal and political profile to the point where everyone (except those in authority) realised he was a useless c***!
    That's not quite fair. Blunkett knew he was a useless Tristram, although weather he realised it for the right reason is another question. It's one reason why he manoeuvred him out of the role.

    What he did have, according to those acquaintances he and I have in common, was an astonishing gift of the gab. It meant he could interview and schmooze those in power even though he was no good. And, of course, meant he was brilliant at interviews.

    Which I would say was well supported by the evidence of his media work.
    Hindsight being a wonderful skill, Woodhead was a sort of Max Clifford or Stuart Hall of the Education sphere.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 59,027
    edited 8:55AM
    My way out of this war:

    1 Iran rebrands it the Gulf of Trump

    2. Iran puts in place a series of tariffs for transport of vessels through the Gulf of Trump

    3. Iran gives Trump personally 20% of those tariffs.

    4. America guarantees safe transport throught the Gulf of Trump.

    5. Iran with nukes? Meh - who cares?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,097
    Ratters said:

    Very interesting article and comments in the thread from @ydoethur.

    The conclusion (smaller class sizes) seems an obvious one and something that our reduced birth rates could help to gradually introduce.

    If small class sizes are worth paying for the children of the wealthy in private schools, it's worth asking if it would also deliver a positive return on investment for the country and society as a whole.

    Can you imagine if the whole country becomes full of Tarquins and Arabellas? Its a scary thought, lets keep packing the kids in like sardines please.
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