The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Why were you lot kicking back against the Harold Wilson Referendum in '75 for the next 40 years against the wishes of the UK electorate?
Anyway it's been ten years now. If it is a once in a generation vote, by my watch we can have another in 2032.
54% for rejoin is hardly a big margin for rejoining the EU especially with that vote split amongst Labour, the LDs and Greens. The 62% for having a closer relationship with the EU without rejoining it, the Single Market or Customs Union is a more supported position and also hence it is the position of Starmer
Useless as Starmer is, on this he is probably right. We will never re-join in my lifetime, so closer ties are the best we can hope for. We should never have left, but we did, and the grandees of the EU don't want us back.
Besides as a result of Putin's "leave" win, the dynamic of Europe changed. Fortunately Starmer and friends made such a hash of leaving no one else wants to take the plunge. Even the pro- Putin Orban is pissing inside the tent from inside rather than pissing in from the outside.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Democracy.
We got what we voted for - and it means if we don't like any laws then we can kick the buggers out who pass them, rather than the buck being passed to unelected individuals.
The referendum could only promise that HMG would apply to join the EU. It couldn’t promise it actually happening.
So the UK govt wins a referendum. Negotiates. What then ? Put the deal to the public ? What if the EU tell us to go swivel.
One step at a time.
A government would have to win a referendum first. 54% is not much of a lead to be going into a referendum campaign with.
Any government seriously considering a rejoin referendum would surely have to speak to the EU first, to have any sort of idea about what a rejoin referendum would actually mean.
Get elected on the promise of exploring it, then if the EU are interested, deliver the referendum, but don't for the love of god start from the referendum first.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Definitely Brexit, when I went to bed Farage had conceded and was demanding a best of three, when I woke up Dimbleby said "we're leaving".
There was an inevitability about Trump 47.
1992 was a shock but the five years of comedy that followed culminating in '97 wasn't all bad.
Brexit for some of us was like the sudden death of a favourite uncle. And all the "suck it up loser, you lost" on here didn't help, particularly as it turned into an utter fiasco and gave us Boris Johnson and Liz Truss premierships.
Regarding the #MiddleEastWar’s off-ramps and endpoints, many in the markets appear to believe that the US can immediately impose its will on the other two warring parties—Iran and Israel. FWIW, I suspect it may not be that easy, especially at this stage of the War.
Lisa Nandy tells @elliottengage that Andy Burnham should be allowed to stand for Parliament because he is a 'huge asset to the party'
Do you want Reform running Manchester as that’s the feared end result
I am very skeptical that Reform would win Manchester, its not the most fertile ground for them . . . and if they did then that would be democracy in action.
It's Greater Manchester, remember, not Manchester. I'd expect Reform to win a plurality of votes across GM on current polling and given the evidence of Gorton and Denton and recent local by-elections.
I know, and I remain skeptical that Reform would do well in GM. Maybe some areas (Rochdale, Leigh) but overall? Its not their best area at all.
Worth looking back at 2024 local elections as the last major set that compares. Nationally Reform were given a projected national share of ~11% so were already in the double-digits nationally, but in GM they only got ~3-8% in the wards they stood in and ~5% overall. So their support in GM was about half of their support nationally,
But Rochdale and Leigh are not atypical of Greater Manchester. It is Manchester itself which is the anomaly. I'd say Reform come a comfortable first in Wigan and Tameside, and a likely first in Bolton, Oldham, Rochdale and Bury. Lab probably win in Salford and Trafford - maybe Greens in Manchester and LDs in Stockport - but the non-Ref votes are too widely split.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
Why would you want to give that up?
Security
I think there's a quote about giving up freedom for security.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Why did you have so much hate for John Major?
I didn't. But I'd had tory government my whole adult life and was sick of it. It looked like it was finally over and then - belly punch - it wasn't. It felt like a one party state, like they'd never go. I mean, if not now, when? So that was dark. Plus I was working on a city trading floor surrounded by wankers celebrating. Felt so alone.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
Why would you want to give that up?
Security
I think there's a quote about giving up freedom for security.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
If only we'd been offered that back in the 90s or noughties. Few people back then objected to British membership of the EU as it was (I did), but aside from a few fanatics almost jobody wanted ever closer union.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
Why would you want to give that up?
Security
Which it never delivered.
The fact that's fractured at present is entirely down to our own government failing to fund our defence and security properly.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
Why would you want to give that up?
Because the more "freedom" our government gets, the more things it fucks up.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Vat on school fees
This is one of the odder examples of post hoc ergo propter hoc I've seen argued on here.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
Nice.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
"It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate. "
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Removed the easy get out blame for all our ills (the EU). Although sadly it’s replaced leaving as a panacea with rejoining as a panacea.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Why did you have so much hate for John Major?
There was an expectation that Kinnock would win. That is why the loss was so disappointing because it was a shock to those of us who were not of a Conservative disposition. It had already been a long wait too.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Definitely Brexit, when I went to bed Farage had conceded and was demanding a best of three, when I woke up Dimbleby said "we're leaving".
There was an inevitability about Trump 47.
1992 was a shock but the five years of comedy that followed culminating in '97 wasn't all bad.
Brexit for some of us was like the sudden death of a favourite uncle. And all the "suck it up loser, you lost" on here didn't help, particularly as it turned into an utter fiasco and gave us Boris Johnson and Liz Truss premierships.
OK, yes, I'll promote it to #2. But 5/11/24 is impregnable at the top. Massively consequential on many levels, wholly negative, utterly without redemption.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
Why would you want to give that up?
Security
Which it never delivered.
The fact that's fractured at present is entirely down to our own government failing to fund our defence and security properly.
I'd argue Brexit has improved (marginally) Europe's ability to respond to security issues (like Ukraine) because with tge UK outside the EU the main players are more able to act unilaterally and are not hamstrung by needing to find something Angela Merkel or Victor Orban can agree to.
The referendum could only promise that HMG would apply to join the EU. It couldn’t promise it actually happening.
So the UK govt wins a referendum. Negotiates. What then ? Put the deal to the public ? What if the EU tell us to go swivel.
One step at a time.
A government would have to win a referendum first. 54% is not much of a lead to be going into a referendum campaign with.
Any government seriously considering a rejoin referendum would surely have to speak to the EU first, to have any sort of idea about what a rejoin referendum would actually mean.
Get elected on the promise of exploring it, then if the EU are interested, deliver the referendum, but don't for the love of god start from the referendum first.
Sadiq Khan is proposing putting seeking to rejoin the EU in the next Labour manifesto. Then Labour have a mandate to seek to rejoin without a referendum. Sounds good to me. If LibDems do the same, then even a minority Labour government with LD support will have a mandate.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
Why would you want to give that up?
Because the more "freedom" our government gets, the more things it fucks up.
Then, you are arguing against democracy in favour of technocracy.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Definitely Brexit, when I went to bed Farage had conceded and was demanding a best of three, when I woke up Dimbleby said "we're leaving".
There was an inevitability about Trump 47.
1992 was a shock but the five years of comedy that followed culminating in '97 wasn't all bad.
Brexit for some of us was like the sudden death of a favourite uncle. And all the "suck it up loser, you lost" on here didn't help, particularly as it turned into an utter fiasco and gave us Boris Johnson and Liz Truss premierships.
OK, yes, I'll promote it to #2. But 5/11/24 is impregnable at the top. Massively consequential on many levels, wholly negative, utterly without redemption.
Brexit will not evaporate the human race in the same way Trump 47 might.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
Nice.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
"It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate. "
That's not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is because such a decision could not be reversed 5 years later.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Definitely Brexit, when I went to bed Farage had conceded and was demanding a best of three, when I woke up Dimbleby said "we're leaving".
There was an inevitability about Trump 47.
1992 was a shock but the five years of comedy that followed culminating in '97 wasn't all bad.
Brexit for some of us was like the sudden death of a favourite uncle. And all the "suck it up loser, you lost" on here didn't help, particularly as it turned into an utter fiasco and gave us Boris Johnson and Liz Truss premierships.
OK, yes, I'll promote it to #2. But 5/11/24 is impregnable at the top. Massively consequential on many levels, wholly negative, utterly without redemption.
Made you look a complete plank too, which cannot have helped.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Why did you have so much hate for John Major?
I didn't. But I'd had tory government my whole adult life and was sick of it. It looked like it was finally over and then - belly punch - it wasn't. It felt like a one party state, like they'd never go. I mean, if not now, when? So that was dark. Plus I was working on a city trading floor surrounded by wankers celebrating. Felt so alone.
It did feel like they’d NEVER be gone, didn’t it. But then there was that lovely May morning five years later.
The referendum could only promise that HMG would apply to join the EU. It couldn’t promise it actually happening.
So the UK govt wins a referendum. Negotiates. What then ? Put the deal to the public ? What if the EU tell us to go swivel.
One step at a time.
A government would have to win a referendum first. 54% is not much of a lead to be going into a referendum campaign with.
Any government seriously considering a rejoin referendum would surely have to speak to the EU first, to have any sort of idea about what a rejoin referendum would actually mean.
Get elected on the promise of exploring it, then if the EU are interested, deliver the referendum, but don't for the love of god start from the referendum first.
Sadiq Khan is proposing putting seeking to rejoin the EU in the next Labour manifesto. Then Labour have a mandate to seek to rejoin without a referendum. Sounds good to me. If LibDems do the same, then even a minority Labour government with LD support will have a mandate.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Vat on school fees
This is one of the odder examples of post hoc ergo propter hoc I've seen argued on here.
And that VAT on schools policy has cost me thousands a year, directly from my own pocket.
It doesn't make me want to reverse Brexit; it does make me want to argue why the policy is wrong domestically.
It's not about neatly sidestepping the arguments for me with what's in my own financial interests.
It is for some others though, which I actually find rather more interesting.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
That doesn't make sense. If you are right the Wilson vote should have been the last Referendum on EU membership. I'll concede a vote on Maastricht if you like. A vote Major would have won.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
Nice.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
"It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate. "
That's not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is because such a decision could not be reversed 5 years later.
And well you know it.
It's exactly the argument you made. A blatant hyprocrite.
My assumption was term 1 of the Labour government would be to align more closely with the EU, and then term 2 would be about getting ready formally to propose rejoining, with perhaps that decision going to be the lynchpin of a campaign for a third term.
The very quick shift to unpopularity has complicated that somewhat.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
Nice.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
"It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate. "
That's not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is because such a decision could not be reversed 5 years later.
And well you know it.
It's exactly the argument you made. A blatant hyprocrite.
I can understand that you're frustrated that I don't agree with you, but what you said isn't the killer point you seem to think it is.
My assumption was term 1 of the Labour government would be to align more closely with the EU, and then term 2 would be about getting ready formally to propose rejoining, with perhaps that decision going to be the lynchpin of a campaign for a third term.
The very quick shift to unpopularity has complicated that somewhat.
Starmer was too frit and Trump has changed the dynamic. Perhaps Trump will so repulse voters against Reform. Although I am not holding my breath.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Definitely Brexit, when I went to bed Farage had conceded and was demanding a best of three, when I woke up Dimbleby said "we're leaving".
There was an inevitability about Trump 47.
1992 was a shock but the five years of comedy that followed culminating in '97 wasn't all bad.
Brexit for some of us was like the sudden death of a favourite uncle. And all the "suck it up loser, you lost" on here didn't help, particularly as it turned into an utter fiasco and gave us Boris Johnson and Liz Truss premierships.
Wrt to your last para - I don't think 2016-2019 showed political discussion online in its best light, by either side. Alastair Meeks for one ran a series of articles on a theme of "aren't leave voters simply dreadful people?'. And it's easy to reach the (erroneous) conclusuon that the most strident and loudest voices are typical of the whole. But there were plenty of leavers who recognised the closeness of the vote and wished a solution could be found which bridged the gap, and who did not want a UK permanently riven into two diamtrically opposed camps.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
That doesn't make sense. If you are right the Wilson vote should have been the last Referendum on EU membership. I'll concede a vote on Maastricht if you like. A vote Major would have won.
There was over 40 years after Wilson's vote until the next one.
What this is about for you is finding a ripe time to hold your referendum so you can "win" it and then use it to silence any further dissent for decades, by which you think the country would be so unrecognisable that it'd never be the same again. Which is why we'd fight you tooth and nail.
54% for rejoin is hardly a big margin for rejoining the EU especially with that vote split amongst Labour, the LDs and Greens. The 62% for having a closer relationship with the EU without rejoining it, the Single Market or Customs Union is a more supported position and also hence it is the position of Starmer
My assumption was term 1 of the Labour government would be to align more closely with the EU, and then term 2 would be about getting ready formally to propose rejoining, with perhaps that decision going to be the lynchpin of a campaign for a third term.
The very quick shift to unpopularity has complicated that somewhat.
Starmer was too frit and Trump has changed the dynamic. Perhaps Trump will so repulse voters against Reform. Although I am not holding my breath.
Starmer is the great coward when the light is shining and a really brutal assassin when not.
A reasonably profitable afternoon in the Sunbury area diverted my attention to the global geo-political goings-on.
There is, despite what many argue and the apparent evidence, a rhyme and reason to how the Trump Administration conducts its foreign policy and, broadly, it's along the lines of if the enemy leaders won't talk to you, get rid of them and find someone further down the food chain with whom you can do business.
The collective sigh of relief from the markets was audible even at Kempton Park and with WTI sliding from $101 a barrel this morning to $88 this evening, the obvious thought is someone has made a killing on all this which presumably is the other tenet of American foreign policy which can be summarised as whatever you do, make sure your friends know in advance so they can make a killing.
As to what Israel makes of all this, I've no clue. IF Trump does a deal with the new power in the Islamic Republic, will Israel accept it or will they continue to attack the regime's infrastructure. I do wonder where Israeli-American relations might go at the end of all this.
It seems regime change, if it was ever realistic, is no more an objective than it was in Venezuela or might be in Cuba. It is a business-oriented, market driven foreign policy we have to recognise eminating from Washington where concepts of politics, ideology and even principle as we would understand them no longer apply, It's the Art of the Deal, seemingly, made real.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
Nice.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
"It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate. "
That's not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is because such a decision could not be reversed 5 years later.
And well you know it.
It's exactly the argument you made. A blatant hyprocrite.
I can understand that you're frustrated that I don't agree with you, but what you said isn't the killer point you seem to think it is.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
54% for rejoin is hardly a big margin for rejoining the EU especially with that vote split amongst Labour, the LDs and Greens. The 62% for having a closer relationship with the EU without rejoining it, the Single Market or Customs Union is a more supported position and also hence it is the position of Starmer
52 plays 48 is good enough, or so I am told.
Technically it isn't, MPs rejected Brexit for 3 years after 2016 and the 2017 general election produced a hung parliament so may could not deliver it. Only Boris' landslide Conservative majority at the 2019 general election delivered Brexit, not the referendum itself
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
Nice.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
"It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate. "
That's not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is because such a decision could not be reversed 5 years later.
And well you know it.
It's exactly the argument you made. A blatant hyprocrite.
I can understand that you're frustrated that I don't agree with you, but what you said isn't the killer point you seem to think it is.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
Yes, and?
This doesn't become more convincing the more times you copy and paste it.
54% for rejoin is hardly a big margin for rejoining the EU especially with that vote split amongst Labour, the LDs and Greens. The 62% for having a closer relationship with the EU without rejoining it, the Single Market or Customs Union is a more supported position and also hence it is the position of Starmer
52 plays 48 is good enough, or so I am told.
Technically it isn't, MPs rejected Brexit for 3 years after 2016 and the 2017 general election produced a hung parliament so may could not deliver it. Only Boris' landslide Conservative majority at the 2019 general election delivered Brexit, not the referendum itself
And our current pious PM ran in 2017 on a pledge to implement the referendum result, spent two years as Shadow Brexit Secretary blocking every deal, then demanded a second go at it
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
Me too. Felt sick. My top 5 sickeners in order of nausea intensity as below:
1. Trump2 2. 1992 Con win 3. Brexit 4. 2015 Con win 5. Trump1
Why did you have so much hate for John Major?
I didn't. But I'd had tory government my whole adult life and was sick of it. It looked like it was finally over and then - belly punch - it wasn't. It felt like a one party state, like they'd never go. I mean, if not now, when? So that was dark. Plus I was working on a city trading floor surrounded by wankers celebrating. Felt so alone.
The day Thatcher was out, I said this will mean the Tories win the next election.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
That doesn't make sense. If you are right the Wilson vote should have been the last Referendum on EU membership. I'll concede a vote on Maastricht if you like. A vote Major would have won.
There was over 40 years after Wilson's vote until the next one.
What this is about for you is finding a ripe time to hold your referendum so you can "win" it and then use it to silence any further dissent for decades, by which you think the country would be so unrecognisable that it'd never be the same again. Which is why we'd fight you tooth and nail.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Why were you lot kicking back against the Harold Wilson Referendum in '75 for the next 40 years against the wishes of the UK electorate?
Anyway it's been ten years now. If it is a once in a generation vote, by my watch we can have another in 2032.
As far as re-joining the EU is concerned, my view is encapsulated by a line from the classic The Boys of Summer - "those days are gone forever, I should just let them go".
We can't go back to the half-hearted, mean spirited, rebate-focussed, banana-obsessed membership we endured from 1973 to 2016. It does us no good and the EU wouldn't want that.
There were only two coherent policy positions and the Hokey Cokey expressed them beautifully - "you put your whole self in, your whole self out". That's still the case - we can quite happily stay out and make whatever kind of economic and political relationship we want with the EU or we can seek to re-join on the basis of being full and enthusiastic members. I imagine there remains no constituency for the Euro or even Schengen so I'm not sure what kind of membership we could have or would be acceptable and the big stumbling block remains Freedom of Movement within the Single Market.
I can't see any possibility of any British Government anytime soon being able to sell Freedom of Movement - without that, we can't join the Single Market as I understand it.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
That doesn't make sense. If you are right the Wilson vote should have been the last Referendum on EU membership. I'll concede a vote on Maastricht if you like. A vote Major would have won.
There was over 40 years after Wilson's vote until the next one.
What this is about for you is finding a ripe time to hold your referendum so you can "win" it and then use it to silence any further dissent for decades, by which you think the country would be so unrecognisable that it'd never be the same again. Which is why we'd fight you tooth and nail.
Do you think we're stupid?
You voted for Brexit thinking it would achieve anything positive, so... yes.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
Why would you want to give that up?
deluded lunatic, overdosed on vegetarian venison no doubt
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
That doesn't make sense. If you are right the Wilson vote should have been the last Referendum on EU membership. I'll concede a vote on Maastricht if you like. A vote Major would have won.
There was over 40 years after Wilson's vote until the next one.
What this is about for you is finding a ripe time to hold your referendum so you can "win" it and then use it to silence any further dissent for decades, by which you think the country would be so unrecognisable that it'd never be the same again. Which is why we'd fight you tooth and nail.
Do you think we're stupid?
Why so aggressive? You won, suck it up.
Nothing aggressive about it.
And yes, we won, which is why if you tried to reverse it we wouldn't suck it up.
There are probably enough hardcore Brexiteers in this multi party FPTP set up to return a 'no deal Brexit without referendum' government if we voted to go back in.
If we rejoin the EU, Nigel Farage might start a party to campaign to leave it. Independence for the UK Party or some such
And, undignified as it is to say it, that's why we can't just cut to the chase, even if it were agreed to be in the national interest. Farage is many things, a lot of them horrible, but he is also incredibly effective as a Eurosceptic campaigner. As long as he is still a viable politician, pushing for rejoining is a very risky move.
My Theory of Brexit has always been that it has a heavy component of generational vibes. The wartime and immediate post-war generations got the point of European union, generation Brexit hankered for their pre-1973 youth, generations below them hanker for their youth in the post-1992(ish) era.
As far as re-joining the EU is concerned, my view is encapsulated by a line from the classic The Boys of Summer - "those days are gone forever, I should just let them go".
We can't go back to the half-hearted, mean spirited, rebate-focussed, banana-obsessed membership we endured from 1973 to 2016. It does us no good and the EU wouldn't want that.
There were only two coherent policy positions and the Hokey Cokey expressed them beautifully - "you put your whole self in, your whole self out". That's still the case - we can quite happily stay out and make whatever kind of economic and political relationship we want with the EU or we can seek to re-join on the basis of being full and enthusiastic members. I imagine there remains no constituency for the Euro or even Schengen so I'm not sure what kind of membership we could have or would be acceptable and the big stumbling block remains Freedom of Movement within the Single Market.
I can't see any possibility of any British Government anytime soon being able to sell Freedom of Movement - without that, we can't join the Single Market as I understand it.
It’s easy to sell Freedom of Movement! It means lower immigration than the Boriswave.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Democracy.
We got what we voted for - and it means if we don't like any laws then we can kick the buggers out who pass them, rather than the buck being passed to unelected individuals.
Seems JD Vance is being brought in to help with negotiations.
He didn't want this war and believes no one in MAGA does either, so that bodes well perhaps?
I'm no fan of Vance but I do believe he is genuinely opposed to these kind of Middle Eastern military conflicts. His silence over the last 3-4 weeks speaks volumes in this regard.
If he's been put on the job, it's likely a sign Trump just wants an end to the mess.
54% for rejoin is hardly a big margin for rejoining the EU especially with that vote split amongst Labour, the LDs and Greens. The 62% for having a closer relationship with the EU without rejoining it, the Single Market or Customs Union is a more supported position and also hence it is the position of Starmer
52 plays 48 is good enough, or so I am told.
Technically it isn't, MPs rejected Brexit for 3 years after 2016 and the 2017 general election produced a hung parliament so may could not deliver it. Only Boris' landslide Conservative majority at the 2019 general election delivered Brexit, not the referendum itself
If only Nick Timothy hadn't persuaded Mrs May to call an election.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Why were you lot kicking back against the Harold Wilson Referendum in '75 for the next 40 years against the wishes of the UK electorate?
Anyway it's been ten years now. If it is a once in a generation vote, by my watch we can have another in 2032.
must mean new independence one due very very soon
If Scotland wants a new vote they should have it. Given they keep voting for Sindy parties the question won't go away, even if the gov can legally ignore it.
54% for rejoin is hardly a big margin for rejoining the EU especially with that vote split amongst Labour, the LDs and Greens. The 62% for having a closer relationship with the EU without rejoining it, the Single Market or Customs Union is a more supported position and also hence it is the position of Starmer
52 plays 48 is good enough, or so I am told.
Technically it isn't, MPs rejected Brexit for 3 years after 2016 and the 2017 general election produced a hung parliament so may could not deliver it. Only Boris' landslide Conservative majority at the 2019 general election delivered Brexit, not the referendum itself
If only Nick Timothy hadn't persuaded Mrs May to call an election.
I thought it was a walk in the Brecons which did it.
Regarding the #MiddleEastWar’s off-ramps and endpoints, many in the markets appear to believe that the US can immediately impose its will on the other two warring parties—Iran and Israel. FWIW, I suspect it may not be that easy, especially at this stage of the War.
Seems JD Vance is being brought in to help with negotiations.
He didn't want this war and believes no one in MAGA does either, so that bodes well perhaps?
I'm no fan of Vance but I do believe he is genuinely opposed to these kind of Middle Eastern military conflicts. His silence over the last 3-4 weeks speaks volumes in this regard.
If he's been put on the job, it's likely a sign Trump just wants an end to the mess.
Yes, I'm sure if directly asked he'll say everything has been genius from start to finish, but he's been weirdly quiet.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Why were you lot kicking back against the Harold Wilson Referendum in '75 for the next 40 years against the wishes of the UK electorate?
Anyway it's been ten years now. If it is a once in a generation vote, by my watch we can have another in 2032.
must mean new independence one due very very soon
If Scotland wants a new vote they should have it. Given they keep voting for Sindy parties the question won't go away, even if the gov can legally ignore it.
Both Starmer and Farage have made clear they will refuse indyref2, certainly for a decade, so it won't happen whatever happens in May
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Why were you lot kicking back against the Harold Wilson Referendum in '75 for the next 40 years against the wishes of the UK electorate?
Anyway it's been ten years now. If it is a once in a generation vote, by my watch we can have another in 2032.
must mean new independence one due very very soon
If Scotland wants a new vote they should have it. Given they keep voting for Sindy parties the question won't go away, even if the gov can legally ignore it.
Both Starmer and Farage have made clear they will refuse indyref2, certainly for a decade, so it won't happen whatever happens in May
I see you didn't make it to the end of my sentence.
The referendum could only promise that HMG would apply to join the EU. It couldn’t promise it actually happening.
So the UK govt wins a referendum. Negotiates. What then ? Put the deal to the public ? What if the EU tell us to go swivel.
One step at a time.
A government would have to win a referendum first. 54% is not much of a lead to be going into a referendum campaign with.
Any government seriously considering a rejoin referendum would surely have to speak to the EU first, to have any sort of idea about what a rejoin referendum would actually mean.
Get elected on the promise of exploring it, then if the EU are interested, deliver the referendum, but don't for the love of god start from the referendum first.
Sadiq Khan is proposing putting seeking to rejoin the EU in the next Labour manifesto. Then Labour have a mandate to seek to rejoin without a referendum. Sounds good to me. If LibDems do the same, then even a minority Labour government with LD support will have a mandate.
54% for rejoin is hardly a big margin for rejoining the EU especially with that vote split amongst Labour, the LDs and Greens. The 62% for having a closer relationship with the EU without rejoining it, the Single Market or Customs Union is a more supported position and also hence it is the position of Starmer
52 plays 48 is good enough, or so I am told.
Technically it isn't, MPs rejected Brexit for 3 years after 2016 and the 2017 general election produced a hung parliament so may could not deliver it. Only Boris' landslide Conservative majority at the 2019 general election delivered Brexit, not the referendum itself
If only Nick Timothy hadn't persuaded Mrs May to call an election.
The Withdrawal Agreement she negotiated would still have been rejected even had she not called it. The first Withdrawal Agreement vote saw it rejected by over 200 votes in early 2019 and even the closest third vote on it was defeated by almost 60 votes ie much bigger then the working majority of 15 even Cameron got in 2015
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
I agree - I never understood why people got so upset at Cameron for holding the referendum, and the fact Leave won entirely vindicated his policy.
But by the same token we should probably be thinking about another referendum. 20 point gap at the moment - I think at 30 points (and 15 year wait. so 2030 onward), you'd have to support another referendum to avoid being a hypocrite.
Or, we could all agree full EU membership wasn't (and never will be) the right model for British involvement in European politics in the long-term, and find a hybrid that would instead.
Then, we'd have peace.
Sure.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
There are no circumstances under which I'd accept rejoining the EU.
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
That doesn't make sense. If you are right the Wilson vote should have been the last Referendum on EU membership. I'll concede a vote on Maastricht if you like. A vote Major would have won.
There was over 40 years after Wilson's vote until the next one.
What this is about for you is finding a ripe time to hold your referendum so you can "win" it and then use it to silence any further dissent for decades, by which you think the country would be so unrecognisable that it'd never be the same again. Which is why we'd fight you tooth and nail.
Do you think we're stupid?
You voted for Brexit thinking it would achieve anything positive, so... yes.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Why were you lot kicking back against the Harold Wilson Referendum in '75 for the next 40 years against the wishes of the UK electorate?
Anyway it's been ten years now. If it is a once in a generation vote, by my watch we can have another in 2032.
must mean new independence one due very very soon
If Scotland wants a new vote they should have it. Given they keep voting for Sindy parties the question won't go away, even if the gov can legally ignore it.
Both Starmer and Farage have made clear they will refuse indyref2, certainly for a decade, so it won't happen whatever happens in May
A few days ago Trump said that a former President had spoken to him and they had said to him that they regretted not attacking Iran.
Someone should point out to him that Napoleon was never president of the USA.
On a point of pedantry, Napoleon was First Consul of France prior to the Louisiana Purchase, which makes up around a quarter of the continental United States.
As far as re-joining the EU is concerned, my view is encapsulated by a line from the classic The Boys of Summer - "those days are gone forever, I should just let them go".
We can't go back to the half-hearted, mean spirited, rebate-focussed, banana-obsessed membership we endured from 1973 to 2016. It does us no good and the EU wouldn't want that.
There were only two coherent policy positions and the Hokey Cokey expressed them beautifully - "you put your whole self in, your whole self out". That's still the case - we can quite happily stay out and make whatever kind of economic and political relationship we want with the EU or we can seek to re-join on the basis of being full and enthusiastic members. I imagine there remains no constituency for the Euro or even Schengen so I'm not sure what kind of membership we could have or would be acceptable and the big stumbling block remains Freedom of Movement within the Single Market.
I can't see any possibility of any British Government anytime soon being able to sell Freedom of Movement - without that, we can't join the Single Market as I understand it.
just advise people it ends the illegal immigrant problem and it is a walkover
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Be honest, what has it achieved?
Regulatory freedom, trading freedom, immigration freedom, political freedom and accountability to our own people for the decisions our government takes.
Why would you want to give that up?
Did I say I would vote rejoin? As usual you’ve assumed something you don’t know about.
54% for rejoin is hardly a big margin for rejoining the EU especially with that vote split amongst Labour, the LDs and Greens. The 62% for having a closer relationship with the EU without rejoining it, the Single Market or Customs Union is a more supported position and also hence it is the position of Starmer
52 plays 48 is good enough, or so I am told.
Technically it isn't, MPs rejected Brexit for 3 years after 2016 and the 2017 general election produced a hung parliament so may could not deliver it. Only Boris' landslide Conservative majority at the 2019 general election delivered Brexit, not the referendum itself
If only Nick Timothy hadn't persuaded Mrs May to call an election.
It would have probably played out in much the same way. BoJo would still have been an MP and an oppotunistic shit, and a sufficient number of Conservative MPs would have followed him in demanding a more distant relationship than whatever May proposed.
The double lock- getting a majority in the Commons and also in the Conservative party- was a bit of a bugger. (And without the second of those, TMthePM gets VONC'd faster than you can say "vassal state".) The Johnson/Cummings solution, cut off the soft-Brexit voters from the Conservatives and then win a big majority in an election, was quite possibly the only thing that could work. Shame it led to a Brexit model that was so dysfunctional that it has already needed a couple of applications of gaffer tape.
The referendum could only promise that HMG would apply to join the EU. It couldn’t promise it actually happening.
So the UK govt wins a referendum. Negotiates. What then ? Put the deal to the public ? What if the EU tell us to go swivel.
One step at a time.
A government would have to win a referendum first. 54% is not much of a lead to be going into a referendum campaign with.
Any government seriously considering a rejoin referendum would surely have to speak to the EU first, to have any sort of idea about what a rejoin referendum would actually mean.
Get elected on the promise of exploring it, then if the EU are interested, deliver the referendum, but don't for the love of god start from the referendum first.
Sadiq Khan is proposing putting seeking to rejoin the EU in the next Labour manifesto. Then Labour have a mandate to seek to rejoin without a referendum. Sounds good to me. If LibDems do the same, then even a minority Labour government with LD support will have a mandate.
They will CLAIM a mandate. Doesn't mean they will HAVE one.
Parliament can do what it likes with legislation, but democratic legitimacy is a matter of opinion and persuasion. And reversing a decision taken by referendum won't have it unless a future referendum overturns it, just as leaving the EU required a referendum, in practice if not in theory.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Why were you lot kicking back against the Harold Wilson Referendum in '75 for the next 40 years against the wishes of the UK electorate?
Anyway it's been ten years now. If it is a once in a generation vote, by my watch we can have another in 2032.
must mean new independence one due very very soon
If Scotland wants a new vote they should have it. Given they keep voting for Sindy parties the question won't go away, even if the gov can legally ignore it.
Both Starmer and Farage have made clear they will refuse indyref2, certainly for a decade, so it won't happen whatever happens in May
Farage isnt really relevant. He has 8 MPs.
And yet is presented as the natural leader of the British right - until Kemi can claw back enough support and attention to make him be treated closer to the number of MPs he has, he will be relevant.
When it happens re-join day will be designated a national holiday. All across the land bonfires and fireworks will be seen - the culmination of weeks of preparation during which the citizenry will be continually accosted by groups of urchins asking a euro for the Nigel.
The public may be less keen when they see what concessions the EU wants in return.
Stop talking the UK down.
It’ll be the easiest deal in history, the EU needs more than we need them.
TSE still bitter, ten years on...
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[runs and hides!]
That doesn't really help.
Makes me feel better....
The Leave vote was without doubt my biggest political disappointment.
All but 25 of my 64 years have been Tory Governments, but each election disappointment "could" be rectified within five years. The Farage smoke and mirrors fiasco was for life.
It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate.
That's the principle for which many of us voted Leave in the first place.
Why were you lot kicking back against the Harold Wilson Referendum in '75 for the next 40 years against the wishes of the UK electorate?
Anyway it's been ten years now. If it is a once in a generation vote, by my watch we can have another in 2032.
must mean new independence one due very very soon
If Scotland wants a new vote they should have it. Given they keep voting for Sindy parties the question won't go away, even if the gov can legally ignore it.
Both Starmer and Farage have made clear they will refuse indyref2, certainly for a decade, so it won't happen whatever happens in May
Farage isnt really relevant. He has 8 MPs.
And yet is presented as the natural leader of the British right - until Kemi can claw back enough support and attention to make him be treated closer to the number of MPs he has, he will be relevant.
Not until he is in a position to wield the sort of influence the media pretend he has. If a Nationalist majority or coalition win in May and request IndyRef2, Farage will barely even be in the conversation. Swinney isnt going to wait till 2029. Starmer/Labour are all that are relevant to whether it happens.
The referendum could only promise that HMG would apply to join the EU. It couldn’t promise it actually happening.
So the UK govt wins a referendum. Negotiates. What then ? Put the deal to the public ? What if the EU tell us to go swivel.
One step at a time.
A government would have to win a referendum first. 54% is not much of a lead to be going into a referendum campaign with.
Any government seriously considering a rejoin referendum would surely have to speak to the EU first, to have any sort of idea about what a rejoin referendum would actually mean.
Get elected on the promise of exploring it, then if the EU are interested, deliver the referendum, but don't for the love of god start from the referendum first.
Sadiq Khan is proposing putting seeking to rejoin the EU in the next Labour manifesto. Then Labour have a mandate to seek to rejoin without a referendum. Sounds good to me. If LibDems do the same, then even a minority Labour government with LD support will have a mandate.
They will CLAIM a mandate. Doesn't mean they will HAVE one.
Parliament can do what it likes with legislation, but democratic legitimacy is a matter of opinion and persuasion. And reversing a decision taken by referendum won't have it unless a future referendum overturns it, just as leaving the EU required a referendum, in practice if not in theory.
We left by MPs vote in late 2019, not referendum, we were still in the EU for over 3 years after the 2016 EU referendum vote. No reason we cannot rejoin by MPs vote too if Labour won a general election on a manifesto commitment to rejoin as the Conservatives won in 2019 on a manifesto commitment to leave.
The referendum could only promise that HMG would apply to join the EU. It couldn’t promise it actually happening.
So the UK govt wins a referendum. Negotiates. What then ? Put the deal to the public ? What if the EU tell us to go swivel.
One step at a time.
A government would have to win a referendum first. 54% is not much of a lead to be going into a referendum campaign with.
Any government seriously considering a rejoin referendum would surely have to speak to the EU first, to have any sort of idea about what a rejoin referendum would actually mean.
Get elected on the promise of exploring it, then if the EU are interested, deliver the referendum, but don't for the love of god start from the referendum first.
Sadiq Khan is proposing putting seeking to rejoin the EU in the next Labour manifesto. Then Labour have a mandate to seek to rejoin without a referendum. Sounds good to me. If LibDems do the same, then even a minority Labour government with LD support will have a mandate.
They will CLAIM a mandate. Doesn't mean they will HAVE one.
Parliament can do what it likes with legislation, but democratic legitimacy is a matter of opinion and persuasion. And reversing a decision taken by referendum won't have it unless a future referendum overturns it, just as leaving the EU required a referendum, in practice if not in theory.
I find the word mandate to be mostly meaningless, because opponents will always find a way to claim X does not provide a mandate for Y, and supporters will always be able to find a pretext for why something does provide a mandate.
That said, i think the fundamental point is correct in that the legal position matters less than the harder to define and more nebulous position of what the public feels to be suffficient mandate.
This is one reason I thought the furore over the Article 50 decision was so shameful, because it was abundantly clear that, whatever other stumbling blocks would be be attempted down the line, there was never a question Parliament would not trigger it, so the government pretending in statements that a referendum had automatic legal effect and how dare people go agaisnt that, was just plain silly*.
A few days ago Trump said that a former President had spoken to him and they had said to him that they regretted not attacking Iran. The press went round the offices of the living ex-Presidents and all of them denied having spoken to Trump recently.
It can't really be the case that Trump's peace talks are fictitious can it?
Comments
Lol.
We got what we voted for - and it means if we don't like any laws then we can kick the buggers out who pass them, rather than the buck being passed to unelected individuals.
Get elected on the promise of exploring it, then if the EU are interested, deliver the referendum, but don't for the love of god start from the referendum first.
Then, we'd have peace.
There was an inevitability about Trump 47.
1992 was a shock but the five years of comedy that followed culminating in '97 wasn't all bad.
Brexit for some of us was like the sudden death of a favourite uncle. And all the "suck it up loser, you lost" on here didn't help, particularly as it turned into an utter fiasco and gave us Boris Johnson and Liz Truss premierships.
@elerianm
Regarding the #MiddleEastWar’s off-ramps and endpoints, many in the markets appear to believe that the US can immediately impose its will on the other two warring parties—Iran and Israel.
FWIW, I suspect it may not be that easy, especially at this stage of the War.
https://x.com/elerianm/status/2036132291852832838
I'd say Reform come a comfortable first in Wigan and Tameside, and a likely first in Bolton, Oldham, Rochdale and Bury. Lab probably win in Salford and Trafford - maybe Greens in Manchester and LDs in Stockport - but the non-Ref votes are too widely split.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
You need to accept that, and that you can't bounce the country into it.
The fact that's fractured at present is entirely down to our own government failing to fund our defence and security properly.
But would you vote against another referendum on those terms? 2030s, re-join consistently showing 30-point leads?
"It's entirely the wrong attitude to lock something in for the long-term against the wishes of British electorate. "
Then Labour have a mandate to seek to rejoin without a referendum.
Sounds good to me.
If LibDems do the same, then even a minority Labour government with LD support will have a mandate.
@KobeissiLetter
Is this the best timed trade of 2026?
At 6:50 AM ET today, $1.5 BILLION in notional value worth of S&P 500 futures contracts were bought.
This trade was so large it sent the entire index +0.3% higher that minute.
Then, 14 minutes later at 7:04 AM ET, President Trump announced "productive discussions" with Iran were underway.
By 7:10 AM ET, the S&P 500 had added +$2 TRILLION in market cap.
That $1.5 billion position gained +$60 million in minutes.
Absolutely incredible.
https://x.com/KobeissiLetter/status/2036136393328505324
And well you know it.
He didn't want this war and believes no one in MAGA does either, so that bodes well perhaps?
It doesn't make me want to reverse Brexit; it does make me want to argue why the policy is wrong domestically.
It's not about neatly sidestepping the arguments for me with what's in my own financial interests.
It is for some others though, which I actually find rather more interesting.
The very quick shift to unpopularity has complicated that somewhat.
What this is about for you is finding a ripe time to hold your referendum so you can "win" it and then use it to silence any further dissent for decades, by which you think the country would be so unrecognisable that it'd never be the same again. Which is why we'd fight you tooth and nail.
Do you think we're stupid?
A reasonably profitable afternoon in the Sunbury area diverted my attention to the global geo-political goings-on.
There is, despite what many argue and the apparent evidence, a rhyme and reason to how the Trump Administration conducts its foreign policy and, broadly, it's along the lines of if the enemy leaders won't talk to you, get rid of them and find someone further down the food chain with whom you can do business.
The collective sigh of relief from the markets was audible even at Kempton Park and with WTI sliding from $101 a barrel this morning to $88 this evening, the obvious thought is someone has made a killing on all this which presumably is the other tenet of American foreign policy which can be summarised as whatever you do, make sure your friends know in advance so they can make a killing.
As to what Israel makes of all this, I've no clue. IF Trump does a deal with the new power in the Islamic Republic, will Israel accept it or will they continue to attack the regime's infrastructure. I do wonder where Israeli-American relations might go at the end of all this.
It seems regime change, if it was ever realistic, is no more an objective than it was in Venezuela or might be in Cuba. It is a business-oriented, market driven foreign policy we have to recognise eminating from Washington where concepts of politics, ideology and even principle as we would understand them no longer apply, It's the Art of the Deal, seemingly, made real.
This doesn't become more convincing the more times you copy and paste it.
https://bsky.app/profile/rachelbitecofer.bsky.social/post/3mhqknsef3s2b
US and Israeli officials now see securing the Strait of Hormuz as the most realistic endgame of the war, WaPo reports.
So no regime change, no stopping Iran’s nuclear program, which they now consider unlikely to succeed.
Basically fixing a tiny bit of what they broke. For no gain.
We can't go back to the half-hearted, mean spirited, rebate-focussed, banana-obsessed membership we endured from 1973 to 2016. It does us no good and the EU wouldn't want that.
There were only two coherent policy positions and the Hokey Cokey expressed them beautifully - "you put your whole self in, your whole self out". That's still the case - we can quite happily stay out and make whatever kind of economic and political relationship we want with the EU or we can seek to re-join on the basis of being full and enthusiastic members. I imagine there remains no constituency for the Euro or even Schengen so I'm not sure what kind of membership we could have or would be acceptable and the big stumbling block remains Freedom of Movement within the Single Market.
I can't see any possibility of any British Government anytime soon being able to sell Freedom of Movement - without that, we can't join the Single Market as I understand it.
And yes, we won, which is why if you tried to reverse it we wouldn't suck it up.
My Theory of Brexit has always been that it has a heavy component of generational vibes. The wartime and immediate post-war generations got the point of European union, generation Brexit hankered for their pre-1973 youth, generations below them hanker for their youth in the post-1992(ish) era.
So in the meantime, we all wait.
If he's been put on the job, it's likely a sign Trump just wants an end to the mess.
The double lock- getting a majority in the Commons and also in the Conservative party- was a bit of a bugger. (And without the second of those, TMthePM gets VONC'd faster than you can say "vassal state".) The Johnson/Cummings solution, cut off the soft-Brexit voters from the Conservatives and then win a big majority in an election, was quite possibly the only thing that could work. Shame it led to a Brexit model that was so dysfunctional that it has already needed a couple of applications of gaffer tape.
Parliament can do what it likes with legislation, but democratic legitimacy is a matter of opinion and persuasion. And reversing a decision taken by referendum won't have it unless a future referendum overturns it, just as leaving the EU required a referendum, in practice if not in theory.
Reform will repeal the generational smoking ban
The puritanical spirit of Oliver Cromwell again stalks the land" (£)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/03/23/reform-will-repeal-the-generational-smoking-ban/
The 2006-2016 period wasn't the best in the UK - bank crashes, high unemployment, uncontrolled immigration and then public spending restrictions.
You'd have to go back to between 1995 and 2005 for a period when things seemed good and the future rosy.
If a Nationalist majority or coalition win in May and request IndyRef2, Farage will barely even be in the conversation. Swinney isnt going to wait till 2029.
Starmer/Labour are all that are relevant to whether it happens.
That said, i think the fundamental point is correct in that the legal position matters less than the harder to define and more nebulous position of what the public feels to be suffficient mandate.
This is one reason I thought the furore over the Article 50 decision was so shameful, because it was abundantly clear that, whatever other stumbling blocks would be be attempted down the line, there was never a question Parliament would not trigger it, so the government pretending in statements that a referendum had automatic legal effect and how dare people go agaisnt that, was just plain silly*.
*Note, at the time I still supported Brexit.
https://x.com/IraninSA/status/2036136193339933177
The Strait of Hormuz will be controlled by me and the Ayatollah😎😁