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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,273
    DougSeal said:

    So the point in this war, was…

    To smokescreen the Epstein files and it has worked like a Swiss watch.
    I don't understand this. The whole point of a historic allegation is that it's not current. It could re-emerge at any time.
    So long as the war continues, the Epstein files are off the news and some of the stuff that has dropped in the last fortnight has been particularly damning for Trump.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,403
    https://x.com/samcoatessky/status/2036096164198551945

    Keir Starmer accepts the UK is not on a war footing at the moment

    JENKIN: Why is (the UK) not on a war footing now?
    STARMER: Because the strategic review commits us to a war footing, and we now need to put the funding in place in order to get there.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,962
    @chadbourn.bsky.social‬

    Mediators are trying to convene talks in Islamabad later this week, with Mohammad-Bagher Ghalibaf, the parliamentary speaker, leading Iran’s delegation and Witkoff, Kushner, and possibly JD Vance representing the US, Axios reports.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,797
    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,217
    DougSeal said:

    So the point in this war, was…

    To smokescreen the Epstein files and it has worked like a Swiss watch.
    I don't understand this. The whole point of a historic allegation is that it's not current. It could re-emerge at any time.
    I doubt Trump justifies the war even to himself as a distraction from Epstein but it's the thing leaders looking for distraction do.

    I don't know the history but I suspect Galtieri didn't justify the operation against the Falklands as a distraction from his internal woes.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,642

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    The last Tory economic fuel crisis package was an object lasso in how to panic and piss billions up a wall.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,211
    Wow !!

    ‘ ISRAELI OFFICIALS BELIEVE THE US AND IRAN COULD HOLD TALKS IN ISLAMABAD AS SOON AS THIS WEEK - REUTERS SOURCES’


    https://x.com/wallstengine/status/2036101427861594225?s=61
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,217

    nico67 said:

    We went through all this drama because Trump didn’t like Obamas name on a deal !

    Trump can spin this but he capitulated and the Iranian regime remains .

    Good afternoon

    I would caution against thinking this is over

    An utterly untrustworthy Trump and a volatile Netanyahu does not give me confidence that this ends quickly
    I am sure you're right to lack confidence. The slightly hopeful sign is that Iran and the US seem somewhat interested in negotiation.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,273

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,642

    https://x.com/samcoatessky/status/2036096164198551945

    Keir Starmer accepts the UK is not on a war footing at the moment

    JENKIN: Why is (the UK) not on a war footing now?
    STARMER: Because the strategic review commits us to a war footing, and we now need to put the funding in place in order to get there.

    Jenkins accuses Starmer if being Party Political after he and Deshi show utter contempt for common sense in complete denial of 14 years of gross Tory cuts and underfunding in defence.

    They seriously do need sectioning under the mental health act if they are suggesting we should have declared war on Iran and joined illegal action with the paucity of operational equipment and man power the Tories left behind.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,211
    Brixian59 said:

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    The last Tory economic fuel crisis package was an object lasso in how to panic and piss billions up a wall.
    As well as help spike inflation
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,805
    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    So the point in this war, was…

    To smokescreen the Epstein files and it has worked like a Swiss watch.
    I don't understand this. The whole point of a historic allegation is that it's not current. It could re-emerge at any time.
    I doubt Trump justifies the war even to himself as a distraction from Epstein but it's the thing leaders looking for distraction do.

    I don't know the history but I suspect Galtieri didn't justify the operation against the Falklands as a distraction from his internal woes.
    Internally, within the regime, he did acknowledge that it was a distraction. It was a desperate last throw of the dice by the Junta.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,211

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Pensioners, benefits claimants and public sector workers have already enjoyed their generosity
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,797
    Looking at YouGovs latest leadership figures from this morning, Farage still has more 'strong support' gross than Badenoch but their gross 'all support' are now identical and she has fewer negatives. If this persists then the VI should start narrowing further between Con and Ref unless Con brand is a significant drag and/or Reform brand a significsnt boost on party polling.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,797

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Truss gave everyone free money too. It crashed the economy.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,756
    edited 3:37PM
    You couldn't make it up
    HS2 the superfast. Railway is likely to run at reduced speed to save money


    Billions wasted.

    HS2 trains could run slower than planned to save money - BBC News https://share.google/JEjub8jHZo6jL2h3I
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,610
    edited 3:38PM
    Taz said:

    Wow !!

    ‘ ISRAELI OFFICIALS BELIEVE THE US AND IRAN COULD HOLD TALKS IN ISLAMABAD AS SOON AS THIS WEEK - REUTERS SOURCES’


    https://x.com/wallstengine/status/2036101427861594225?s=61

    Iran promises not to build the bomb.
    The US and Israel promise not to try and overthrow the Iranian government.
    Iran opens the Straits of Hormuz.

    Crisis over.

    (Fingers crossed.)
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,691

    DougSeal said:

    So the point in this war, was…

    To smokescreen the Epstein files and it has worked like a Swiss watch.
    I don't understand this. The whole point of a historic allegation is that it's not current. It could re-emerge at any time.
    So long as the war continues, the Epstein files are off the news and some of the stuff that has dropped in the last fortnight has been particularly damning for Trump.
    You all misunderstand Trump. He’s merely trying to sort out the mess left by Barak Biden.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,676
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Wow !!

    ‘ ISRAELI OFFICIALS BELIEVE THE US AND IRAN COULD HOLD TALKS IN ISLAMABAD AS SOON AS THIS WEEK - REUTERS SOURCES’


    https://x.com/wallstengine/status/2036101427861594225?s=61

    Iran promises not to build the bomb.
    The US and Israel promise not to try and overthrow the Iranian government.
    Iran opens the Straits of Hormuz.

    Crisis over.

    (Fingers crossed.)
    Fingers crossed as in everyone around the table will have their fingers crossed because they won't telling the truth?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,691

    You couldn't make it up
    HS2 the superfast. Railway is likely to run at reduced speed to save money


    Billions wasted.

    HS2 trains could run slower than planned to save money - BBC News https://share.google/JEjub8jHZo6jL2h3I

    It will give the bats time to fly out of the tunnels.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,797
    Brixian59 said:

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    The last Tory economic fuel crisis package was an object lasso in how to panic and piss billions up a wall.
    Yes, thars the last economic support package i am referring to.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,996
    edited 3:46PM

    You couldn't make it up
    HS2 the superfast. Railway is likely to run at reduced speed to save money


    Billions wasted.

    HS2 trains could run slower than planned to save money - BBC News https://share.google/JEjub8jHZo6jL2h3I

    It will give the bats time to fly out of the tunnels.
    You don’t need to make it up - it’s a set of know nothing idiots trying to save money.

    Slower trains won’t save money when we need 4 more trains to create a regular timetable but no-one involved in the decision will have ever thought about that type of slightly secondary issue.

  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,315
    Taz said:

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Pensioners, benefits claimants and public sector workers have already enjoyed their generosity
    I'm struggling to think what free money I've received from my public sector employer.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,890
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Wow !!

    ‘ ISRAELI OFFICIALS BELIEVE THE US AND IRAN COULD HOLD TALKS IN ISLAMABAD AS SOON AS THIS WEEK - REUTERS SOURCES’


    https://x.com/wallstengine/status/2036101427861594225?s=61

    Iran promises not to build the bomb.
    The US and Israel promise not to try and overthrow the Iranian government.
    Iran opens the Straits of Hormuz.

    Crisis over.

    (Fingers crossed.)
    Plausible given:
    - Iran in no place to build the bomb while being bombarded daily
    - The US and Israel have plainly failed to overthrow the Iranian government, despite their efforts. And they don't have the appetite for a land war that would be needed to make it happen.
    - Iran knows the Strait is a bargaining chip that has worked well and do so again in the future if the US or Israel renege.

    My concern is one side holds out for too much. Such as no Uranium at all or full sanction relief. Or the IRGC just refuse to stop firing missiles.

    But the potential for the deal is there. In game theory, the status quo (or escalation) results in a loss for both parties. De-escalation gets no one their optimal result but better than they are right now.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,190
    And she's not even one of the totally mental ones.
    (I know it's a referendum on legal reforms but Meloni did tie herself to its success)

    Spencer Hakimian
    @SpencerHakimian
    🚨BREAKING: ITALIAN EXIT POLL SHOWS MELONI LOSS

    https://x.com/SpencerHakimian/status/2036083622638145566?s=20
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,797
    Some reports emerging on X that US bases in Kuwait have just been hit
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,273

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Truss gave everyone free money too. It crashed the economy.
    Nigel Farage told us that Truss's budget was the "most Conservative budget since 1986". Both of you can't be right.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,676

    You couldn't make it up
    HS2 the superfast. Railway is likely to run at reduced speed to save money


    Billions wasted.

    HS2 trains could run slower than planned to save money - BBC News https://share.google/JEjub8jHZo6jL2h3I

    It's right to say that building it for more than 300kmh was a ridiculous decision but I doubt changing the specification now would save that much money.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,598
    edited 3:49PM
    "14.23 GMT
    Exit polls suggest Meloni narrowly lost contentious referendum — snap analysis
    Angela Giuffrida in Rome

    Exit polls on Monday appeared to suggest Italy’s prime minister has narrowly lost a contentious referendum on judicial reform."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2026/mar/23/local-eu-elections-slovenia-italy-france-latest-updates-news
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,568
    Scott_xP said:

    News networks just interviewed a rambling old man on TV. He's delusional. Thinks he's the President.

    Actually, he thinks Gavin Newsom is President!
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,554
    Stereodog said:

    Taz said:

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Pensioners, benefits claimants and public sector workers have already enjoyed their generosity
    I'm struggling to think what free money I've received from my public sector employer.
    Reform candidates on the other hand seem to well-represented amongst the COVID free money recipients
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,273

    DougSeal said:

    So the point in this war, was…

    To smokescreen the Epstein files and it has worked like a Swiss watch.
    I don't understand this. The whole point of a historic allegation is that it's not current. It could re-emerge at any time.
    So long as the war continues, the Epstein files are off the news and some of the stuff that has dropped in the last fortnight has been particularly damning for Trump.
    You all misunderstand Trump. He’s merely trying to sort out the mess left by Barak Biden.
    He is currently not very impressed with "dumb" "President Gavin Newscum". Maybe Newsom dropped this particularly b******.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,897
    edited 3:52PM
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Wow !!

    ‘ ISRAELI OFFICIALS BELIEVE THE US AND IRAN COULD HOLD TALKS IN ISLAMABAD AS SOON AS THIS WEEK - REUTERS SOURCES’


    https://x.com/wallstengine/status/2036101427861594225?s=61

    Iran promises not to build the bomb.
    The US and Israel promise not to try and overthrow the Iranian government.
    Iran opens the Straits of Hormuz.

    Crisis over.

    (Fingers crossed.)
    Iran promises not to build the bomb.

    Hmmm.

    Need some heft behind it if they do.

    A ) The US and Israel will bomb the shit out of Iran again.

    B ) Meanwhile, the GCC spends an insane amount on missile defence. From Ukraine.

    C ) Oh, and America and Pakistan will give the Saudis 10 nukes. Pick your 10 Iranian cities to wave goodbye.

    D ) And for good measure, the US will mine the Straits of Hormuz. They won't become live until codes are entered. Or somebody tries to move them.

    Assume the Iranians will try to cheat - and build that into the peace deal.

    (And at some point, very soon, Putin has to pay a very high price for siding with Iran at the deadly risk to American servicemen and women.)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,190
    𝐃𝐈𝐆𝐁
    @_DIGB
    3h
    Iran down the pub on Friday after Trump backed down

    https://x.com/_DIGB/status/2036051464645157181?s=20
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,598

    You couldn't make it up
    HS2 the superfast. Railway is likely to run at reduced speed to save money


    Billions wasted.

    HS2 trains could run slower than planned to save money - BBC News https://share.google/JEjub8jHZo6jL2h3I

    There's still the increased capacity which is very much needed.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,273

    DougSeal said:

    So the point in this war, was…

    To smokescreen the Epstein files and it has worked like a Swiss watch.
    I don't understand this. The whole point of a historic allegation is that it's not current. It could re-emerge at any time.
    So long as the war continues, the Epstein files are off the news and some of the stuff that has dropped in the last fortnight has been particularly damning for Trump.
    You all misunderstand Trump. He’s merely trying to sort out the mess left by Barak Biden.
    Barrack Hussain O'Biden please.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,217
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Wow !!

    ‘ ISRAELI OFFICIALS BELIEVE THE US AND IRAN COULD HOLD TALKS IN ISLAMABAD AS SOON AS THIS WEEK - REUTERS SOURCES’


    https://x.com/wallstengine/status/2036101427861594225?s=61

    Iran promises not to build the bomb.
    The US and Israel promise not to try and overthrow the Iranian government.
    Iran opens the Straits of Hormuz.

    Crisis over.

    (Fingers crossed.)
    Yes, but the first protects against the second happening and vice versa. So I think the subtext is that an agreement will be in place for just long enough for Iran to rebuild and improve on its weapons arsenal while Israel in particular will be keen to get back to bombing Iran very quickly to forestall that.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 22,338
    Stereodog said:

    Taz said:

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Pensioners, benefits claimants and public sector workers have already enjoyed their generosity
    I'm struggling to think what free money I've received from my public sector employer.
    Some (e.g. medics) have had huge pay rises. Others, he might be referring to the generosity of pensions in the public sector.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,190

    DougSeal said:

    So the point in this war, was…

    To smokescreen the Epstein files and it has worked like a Swiss watch.
    I don't understand this. The whole point of a historic allegation is that it's not current. It could re-emerge at any time.
    So long as the war continues, the Epstein files are off the news and some of the stuff that has dropped in the last fortnight has been particularly damning for Trump.
    You all misunderstand Trump. He’s merely trying to sort out the mess left by Barak Biden.
    Barrack Hussain O'Biden please.
    'Sleepy Joe has shit in my pants again!'
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,454

    OT - Times sets a new record for use of the word 'may' in a heading. Another benefit of just making your stories up I suppose...

    In other media watch snippets - The Telegraph has managed make a story out of John Terry putting some approving emojis under a Rupert Lowe tweet. That's it, the whole story.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2026/03/22/john-terry-appears-to-back-rupert-lowe-call-for-burqa-ban/?recomm_id=02251515-b15c-434a-a91e-709d821f0d17
    The Daily Express YouTube channel clips up every Rupert Lowe session on the Public Accounts Committee.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,273
    DoctorG said:

    Full figures from the poll mentioned earlier

    Lord ashcroft poll for Scottish parliament

    Constituency:

    SNP - 39%
    Ref - 14%
    Lab - 12%
    Grn - 11%
    LD - 10%
    Con - 9%

    Regional

    SNP - 31%
    Grn - 17%
    Ref - 15%
    Lab - 12%
    Con - 10%
    LD - 9%
    Other - 1%

    theres no way Greens are getting 11% on the constituency vote - they've only declared they are standing in approx 5 seats so far

    Aren't we allowed to slag off non-BPC Ashcroft polls because they are often inaccurate based on often absurd application of data from other polls?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,285

    𝐃𝐈𝐆𝐁
    @_DIGB
    3h
    Iran down the pub on Friday after Trump backed down

    https://x.com/_DIGB/status/2036051464645157181?s=20

    Trump is absolutely shi'ite.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,315

    Stereodog said:

    Taz said:

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Pensioners, benefits claimants and public sector workers have already enjoyed their generosity
    I'm struggling to think what free money I've received from my public sector employer.
    Some (e.g. medics) have had huge pay rises. Others, he might be referring to the generosity of pensions in the public sector.
    Well I've never had a huge pay rise and I suspect my pension is a lot less ample than many on this site. However that is beside the point because none of that is free money as it's still a wage for services rendered. You might think the wage is too generous but it's hardly free money.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,273

    DougSeal said:

    So the point in this war, was…

    To smokescreen the Epstein files and it has worked like a Swiss watch.
    I don't understand this. The whole point of a historic allegation is that it's not current. It could re-emerge at any time.
    So long as the war continues, the Epstein files are off the news and some of the stuff that has dropped in the last fortnight has been particularly damning for Trump.
    You all misunderstand Trump. He’s merely trying to sort out the mess left by Barak Biden.
    Barrack Hussain O'Biden please.
    'Sleepy Joe has shit in my pants again!'
    Trump probably believes Joe Biden stinks when he is in Trump's orbit. Although the uncanny bit is everyone else smells of wet turd in Trump's orbit too. Funny that.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,119
    Trumps going into business to run Hormuz with the Ayatollah now?

    Can things get any crazier? With Trump at the helm. Yes,. Of course they can! 😂🤣
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,119

    DoctorG said:

    Full figures from the poll mentioned earlier

    Lord ashcroft poll for Scottish parliament

    Constituency:

    SNP - 39%
    Ref - 14%
    Lab - 12%
    Grn - 11%
    LD - 10%
    Con - 9%

    Regional

    SNP - 31%
    Grn - 17%
    Ref - 15%
    Lab - 12%
    Con - 10%
    LD - 9%
    Other - 1%

    theres no way Greens are getting 11% on the constituency vote - they've only declared they are standing in approx 5 seats so far

    Aren't we allowed to slag off non-BPC Ashcroft polls because they are often inaccurate based on often absurd application of data from other polls?
    The Good Lord wasn't wildly different from all other pollsters with his final poll before the 2024 general election. Lab and Ref were overstated, Con understated, which was the case with most of them.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,032

    NEW THREAD

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,273

    Taz said:

    😳

    Journalist:

    "Who is Steve Witkoff speaking with in Iran?"

    🇺🇸🇮🇷 Trump:

    "A top person"

    Journalist:

    "Who is it?"

    Trump:

    "I can't.

    I don't [want] them to be killed.

    https://x.com/marionawfal/status/2036082375944212773?s=61

    He’s worried about the Israeli veto.
    "I have no control over my own foreign policy"
    "...nor my own anal sphincter".
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,030

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Truss gave everyone free money too. It crashed the economy.
    Nigel Farage told us that Truss's budget was the "most Conservative budget since 1986". Both of you can't be right.
    Well Farage is a cock and I am a legend. This is not advanced calculus
    I can never read the word 'legend' without thinking of feet.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,554

    Stereodog said:

    Taz said:

    Afternoon all.
    Batshit crazy times
    Wonder what Reeves will wheel out tomorrow and if it will have the same impact as the lasy ecomonic support package

    During COVID, Boris gave everyone free money. That sounds more like the sort of progress we want to see.

    If Starmer wants to be more popular, free money is the answer. It worked for Boris.
    Pensioners, benefits claimants and public sector workers have already enjoyed their generosity
    I'm struggling to think what free money I've received from my public sector employer.
    Some (e.g. medics) have had huge pay rises. Others, he might be referring to the generosity of pensions in the public sector.
    Contributory pensions, all mainly now average salary since a few years ago and as per their employment Ts and Cs?

    Disclaimer, never been public sector and barring 4 years as an employee, entirely responsible for my pension, health, life and employment insurances.

    Just get pissed off with the "beggar thy neighbour" attacks on public sector employees, how would the attackers feel if their employer took back their contributions to employees' pensions?
    A la Maxwell and others.
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