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How HMRC could turn the leadership ambitions of Angela into ashes – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,930
edited 8:17AM in General
How HMRC could turn the leadership ambitions of Angela into ashes – politicalbetting.com

Anyone who has dealt with HMRC in the last few years will know the infuriatingly slow place of HMRC so this story will be familiar. Angela Rayner is trying to out the issues of her tax minimisation strategies that led to her resignation as Deputy Prime Minister because she and her colleagues know she cannot run whilst this investigation isn’t resolved, as The Telegraph reports

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,508
    edited 8:12AM
    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,676
    Word missing in header title?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,788
    @TSE - I think there's a word missing from the title.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,018
    How HMRC Could... "RUIN"????
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,676
    Hearing that Mandelson was appointed US Ambassador BEFORE the security clearance was completed.

    Starmer has nowhere to hide if so.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,150
    Yes, turn was missing from the headline.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,150

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,577
    edited 8:20AM
    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,676

    Yes, turn was missing from the headline.

    Angela's Ashes...very good!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,895
    The DT and other right wing papers are stirring and hoping to make Rayner look duplicitous and want to finish off her leadership ambitions.

    Clearly though she can forget any thoughts of a leadership challenge until this HMRC issue is sorted out .

    And of course she’s very polarising with a large section of the public unwilling to forgive or forget her recent transgression.

    The Labour membership is altogether different and if she can sort out that tax issue in time no doubt she would be favourite to win .

    I for one really like her and all these accusations that she’s too thick or too gobby to be PM ignore the parade of recent PMs who were apparently so educated but have crashed and burned .

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,397
    It will be more than the original amount as interest and a possible fine added?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,150
    edited 8:21AM
    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    'HMRC will have to decide whether to also levy an additional penalty.'

    That's the issue.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,018

    Hearing that Mandelson was appointed US Ambassador BEFORE the security clearance was completed.

    Starmer has nowhere to hide if so.

    That will be Goodnight Irene if it's true.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,156



    Why are we? It's about as riveting as roundabout procedures.

    Chagsosmania on here is fucking amazing. Goethe once wrote that there were four great 'Weltliteratur': Persian, Sanskrit, Chinese and Western European, presumably in that order. If he were with us today, he would be forced to add a fifth: Lapin de la Lune's online symposium on the jewel of the Indian Ocean.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,279
    Russian general shot several times in Moscow

    Alekseyev is a senior figure in the main directorate of Russia's military general staff (GRU) and is the latest high-ranking military figure to have been targeted in the capital since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine began almost four years ago.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3686nzexp3o
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,601
    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    I think that she owes them money and how much is known. The bigger question is whether HMRC will apply a penalty.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,676

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
    When you think Trump has hit rock bottom, he flips open a trapdoor and descends into another tier of hell...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,150

    Yes, turn was missing from the headline.

    Angela's Ashes...very good!
    Yay, somebody spotted the subtle play on words.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,018
    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    Does she look like the sort of woman who's going to have thousands in the bank for a rainy day?

    She's probably up to her eyes in debt and living off credit cards and overdraft...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,508

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
    Yep, and Grok pretended it isn’t that.

    https://x.com/grok/status/2019657672774070440?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,577
    GIN1138 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    Does she look like the sort of woman who's going to have thousands in the bank for a rainy day?

    She's probably up to her eyes in debt and living off credit cards and overdraft...
    Can't a trade union cover it for her?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,123
    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    They haven't decided whether or how much to fine her. So not simple.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,487
    FPT: Mr. Punter, the Chagos reference is significant because Number Ten is bleating about it even now. Even now, as the PM might be forcing his final days in office.

    On-topic: I'm unsurprised Rayner's keen to get her hands on another property.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,681
    I see from the picture that UK must pay £2billion to EU to help arm Ukraine but I can't read the text. Does it mean the EU takes the first £2b of anything we pay towards an EU project?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,456

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
    The more senile Trump becomes, the more she shows what he is.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,123
    edited 8:33AM
    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,804
    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,577
    nico67 said:

    The DT and other right wing papers are stirring and hoping to make Rayner look duplicitous and want to finish off her leadership ambitions.

    Clearly though she can forget any thoughts of a leadership challenge until this HMRC issue is sorted out .

    And of course she’s very polarising with a large section of the public unwilling to forgive or forget her recent transgression.

    The Labour membership is altogether different and if she can sort out that tax issue in time no doubt she would be favourite to win .

    I for one really like her and all these accusations that she’s too thick or too gobby to be PM ignore the parade of recent PMs who were apparently so educated but have crashed and burned .

    Good point. She’s the victim here.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,403
    It's remarkable if Rayner's tax problems and Streeting's closeness to Mandelson prevent their anbitions
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,577
    Sean_F said:

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
    The more senile Trump becomes, the more she shows what he is.
    That’s grim, even by his standards.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,509
    Have to say I love the Matt on the front page. "Hurtling downwards, seconds from disaster with no means of control. I'd hate to be Keir Starmer", says the luge competitor.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,804
    Scott_xP said:

    Russian general shot several times in Moscow

    Alekseyev is a senior figure in the main directorate of Russia's military general staff (GRU) and is the latest high-ranking military figure to have been targeted in the capital since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine began almost four years ago.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3686nzexp3o

    How unfortunate.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,150
    England's U19 bowlers getting absolutely getting stepmommed in the final.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,493
    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    The problem that Labour has is who are the other options - all the main parties are threadbare when it comes to possible options to be PM
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,577

    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    I think that she owes them money and how much is known. The bigger question is whether HMRC will apply a penalty.
    They’d apply a penalty to you or I, of course they should apply one. It would be reduced if she came forward.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,577
    Dura_Ace said:



    Why are we? It's about as riveting as roundabout procedures.

    Chagsosmania on here is fucking amazing. Goethe once wrote that there were four great 'Weltliteratur': Persian, Sanskrit, Chinese and Western European, presumably in that order. If he were with us today, he would be forced to add a fifth: Lapin de la Lune's online symposium on the jewel of the Indian Ocean.
    I feel as if I’m the only one who doesn’t care about it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,123
    AnneJGP said:

    I see from the picture that UK must pay £2billion to EU to help arm Ukraine but I can't read the text. Does it mean the EU takes the first £2b of anything we pay towards an EU project?

    The £2bn is the price for our defence manufacturers participating in the EU program to rearm Europe/Ukraine.

    It's inevitable that it would cost us something, since we're not contributing to the EU fund.
    Without a lot more information (not something I'd expect the Telegraph to be able to provide), it's impossible to tell whether that headline figure is a good, average or horrible deal (or even exactly what it represents).
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,577

    England's U19 bowlers getting absolutely getting stepmommed in the final.

    Over the kitchen table ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,804
    AnneJGP said:

    I see from the picture that UK must pay £2billion to EU to help arm Ukraine but I can't read the text. Does it mean the EU takes the first £2b of anything we pay towards an EU project?

    There’s an EU project to arm Ukraine with confiscated Russian assets, but Macron doesn’t want the UK to benefit even though France can’t produce the weapons in sufficient numbers.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,507
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    The problem that Labour has is who are the other options - all the main parties are threadbare when it comes to possible options to be PM
    Which is why Starmer got the gig in the first place. The junior ministers and shadows of (roughly) 2015-2022, the people who ought to be in their political prime about now, got destroyed in the various political binfires of Corbyn, Brexit and Boris and Liz.

    One of the things that humans process really badly is situations where cause and effect are separated by decades. Minute-by-minute Permanews just makes that worse.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,009

    Hearing that Mandelson was appointed US Ambassador BEFORE the security clearance was completed.

    Starmer has nowhere to hide if so.

    "Hearing That" ...?

    From whom, where or just wishful thinking ?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,233
    Taz said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Why are we? It's about as riveting as roundabout procedures.

    Chagsosmania on here is fucking amazing. Goethe once wrote that there were four great 'Weltliteratur': Persian, Sanskrit, Chinese and Western European, presumably in that order. If he were with us today, he would be forced to add a fifth: Lapin de la Lune's online symposium on the jewel of the Indian Ocean.
    I feel as if I’m the only one who doesn’t care about it.
    You're not alone I think.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,493
    Utterly off topic but an interesting story - a plan to pump water under a new building so the casino floor sits in the “river” - thus reducing the amount of tax paid

    https://www.25newsnow.com/2026/02/05/par-a-dice-redevelopment-plan-agenda-illinois-gaming-board-meeting/

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,509
    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
    The more senile Trump becomes, the more she shows what he is.
    That’s grim, even by his standards.
    I think it shows he is becoming even more disinhibited. It's of a piece with his meandering drivel that forms his speeches these days. He is more ill now than Biden was when he was persuaded to stand down. And most of his party are looking the other way, just as the Democrats did.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,804
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    The problem that Labour has is who are the other options - all the main parties are threadbare when it comes to possible options to be PM
    Oh absolutely.

    I genuinely think that the last decade of social media has led to no-one of substance having any interest in politics.

    If Starmer was to fall, I’d support someone like John Healey to take over.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,009
    Dura_Ace said:



    Why are we? It's about as riveting as roundabout procedures.

    Chagsosmania on here is fucking amazing. Goethe once wrote that there were four great 'Weltliteratur': Persian, Sanskrit, Chinese and Western European, presumably in that order. If he were with us today, he would be forced to add a fifth: Lapin de la Lune's online symposium on the jewel of the Indian Ocean.
    Well, yes, but it was a stick with which to beat a recently elected Labour Government.

    You should know there are some on here who don't like Labour very much - perhaps you hadn't noticed...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,895
    Taz said:

    nico67 said:

    The DT and other right wing papers are stirring and hoping to make Rayner look duplicitous and want to finish off her leadership ambitions.

    Clearly though she can forget any thoughts of a leadership challenge until this HMRC issue is sorted out .

    And of course she’s very polarising with a large section of the public unwilling to forgive or forget her recent transgression.

    The Labour membership is altogether different and if she can sort out that tax issue in time no doubt she would be favourite to win .

    I for one really like her and all these accusations that she’s too thick or too gobby to be PM ignore the parade of recent PMs who were apparently so educated but have crashed and burned .

    Good point. She’s the victim here.
    I didn’t say she was the victim . She messed up and should have taken proper tax advice . She’s a marmite character but as with Johnson many either loved him or hated him . Starmer is just meh . Dull and competent leadership was what the public expected not this clusterfxck .
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,322

    Yes, turn was missing from the headline.

    Angela's Ashes...very good!
    Yay, somebody spotted the subtle play on words.
    Is there a subtle one there too?
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,257
    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    We have a winner for the most 1950s sounding comment of the day.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,322
    Nigelb said:

    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...

    Is that not the whole idea of vetting though? To find out the extent of any concerns and whether or not there is more to be concerned about, which you were not aware of.

    Why even bother with vetting by your logic?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,575
    Taz said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Why are we? It's about as riveting as roundabout procedures.

    Chagsosmania on here is fucking amazing. Goethe once wrote that there were four great 'Weltliteratur': Persian, Sanskrit, Chinese and Western European, presumably in that order. If he were with us today, he would be forced to add a fifth: Lapin de la Lune's online symposium on the jewel of the Indian Ocean.
    I feel as if I’m the only one who doesn’t care about it.
    You are not.

    It isn't possible to care about everything all the time. It is one of the functions of multi party democracy and a free media that each individual like me delegates nearly all the planet to the scrutiny and action of government/parliament, the scrutiny of the many bodies and institutions who look hard at stuff (of which there are legions) and to the hard stare of the media.

    Trust and competence are central to the project; misinformation and single issue fanaticism is sand in its engine; some of the reasons we are in a bit of a fix.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,322
    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    Getting into financial trouble certainly seems to put her on a par with Trump as far as that element is concerned.

    Maybe the two of them would have something to bond over?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,156
    Sandpit said:

    AnneJGP said:

    I see from the picture that UK must pay £2billion to EU to help arm Ukraine but I can't read the text. Does it mean the EU takes the first £2b of anything we pay towards an EU project?

    There’s an EU project to arm Ukraine with confiscated Russian assets, but Macron doesn’t want the UK to benefit even though France can’t produce the weapons in sufficient numbers.
    It's nothing to do with Russian assets. The EU are borrowing it, taking it from their budget or chiselling it out of the UK (who will in turn have to borrow it).

    https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2026/02/04/council-agrees-position-on-legal-framework-to-provide-90-billion-in-financial-support-to-ukraine/

    Nobody had Belgium's back when it came to confiscating frozen Russian assets so that scheme is in the ditch.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,331
    FPT on Holyhead - thought the place had a lot of potential. Great transport connections for somewhere so rural, RSPB reserve, RAF base nearby, stunning surrounds, megaliths. A beautifully proportioned High Street that is currently a traffic sewer but would do very well out of some pedestrianisation. If I were Chancellor, I'd judge my success over what somewere like Holyhead looks like in 5 years time.

    It's the starting point for Lon Las Cymru, which was why I was there - I spent £35 in the bakers which sustained me to Harlech.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,436
    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    Not correct. The way tax law works, is you either owe it or you don't. No need to pay it if you are in dispute as there are appeals to FTT and UTT if you are so inclined.

    Would you be so enthusiastic to pay money to HMRC if you didn't think you owed it? Why encourage others.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,676

    Nigelb said:

    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...

    Is that not the whole idea of vetting though? To find out the extent of any concerns and whether or not there is more to be concerned about, which you were not aware of.

    Why even bother with vetting by your logic?
    Telling the FT to "fuck off" with their questions about his relationship with Epstein should have at least shown there was a real sensitivity about the issue.

    And now we know why. It was career - and possibly freedom - ending.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,508
    'I'll check we've got that the right way round'

    https://x.com/deanbegley1/status/2019341636103467066?s=20

    Apart from the hilarity of GB News not having its finger on the faltering pulse of the zeitgeist, that vividly painted pantomime dame is Anne Diamond! After the recent Jan Leaming brouhaha, what the hell is going on with our female newsreaders? Can we expect the fragrant Anna Ford to pop up in the Epstein files?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,057

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
    The odd thing is it is just tacked on to the end of a video alleging hacked voting machines at the 2020 election.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/116021857490657707
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,575

    Nigelb said:

    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...

    Is that not the whole idea of vetting though? To find out the extent of any concerns and whether or not there is more to be concerned about, which you were not aware of.

    Why even bother with vetting by your logic?
    Indeed. We would expect MI5 and MI6 to read the Guardian and the FT but we would expect them to go just that little bit further, with all their public and secret powers to hack into stuff, listen to phone calls, read our emails and collate intelligence from the world.

    It's a bit like appointing Ian Huntley to be a school caretaker. You discover (under the modern system) that he has no convictions but keeps being investigated for relevant stuff. The red lights flashing inform the depth of your further research and your decision making. With PM, you know, being men of the world, that bad people do multiple bad things in addition to the ones you have found out, so let's make sure.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,703
    i am confused.

    Okay for Nadim Zahawi to become Chancellor and run for leader / PM
    Not OK for Angela Rayner to run for leader / PM

    ?
  • eekeek Posts: 32,493

    i am confused.

    Okay for Nadim Zahawi to become Chancellor and run for leader / PM
    Not OK for Angela Rayner to run for leader / PM

    ?

    My party, my rules. Opposition party, that’s not fair

    I would have thought that was obvious
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 110
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    The problem that Labour has is who are the other options - all the main parties are threadbare when it comes to possible options to be PM
    Oh absolutely.

    I genuinely think that the last decade of social media has led to no-one of substance having any interest in politics.

    If Starmer was to fall, I’d support someone like John Healey to take over.
    Healey, Alexander, Cooper, Jones, Mcfadden are all very capable. Steady the ship.

    Centre right of the Party though.

    The pair who could emerge as unity candidates with very solid party support and females that scratches the need of some

    Thirnberry.
    Hillier.

    Meg Hillier is a modern day Hattie Harperson in many ways.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,921
    Dura_Ace said:



    Why are we? It's about as riveting as roundabout procedures.

    Chagsosmania on here is fucking amazing. Goethe once wrote that there were four great 'Weltliteratur': Persian, Sanskrit, Chinese and Western European, presumably in that order. If he were with us today, he would be forced to add a fifth: Lapin de la Lune's online symposium on the jewel of the Indian Ocean.
    Believe it or not, I don't actually care about Chagos itself. I'm not so deluded about Britain's position in the world that I think we need a base there. I do however object strongly as a taxpayer to funding the giveaway for the next 100 years. That can fuck off, and then fuck off some more.

    The idea of giving it to America (raised before, but raised again yesterday) is a fairly sound one. Trump has made clear he'll nick it anyway if he feels inclined. We cannot sell it to America sadly, because Starmer's shitty deal with Mauritius makes that impossible diplomatically.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,555
    Scott_xP said:

    Russian general shot several times in Moscow

    Alekseyev is a senior figure in the main directorate of Russia's military general staff (GRU) and is the latest high-ranking military figure to have been targeted in the capital since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine began almost four years ago.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3686nzexp3o

    Is this Ukraine?

    Seems a bit imaginative for the Windows-And-Suicide boys.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,493

    Scott_xP said:

    Russian general shot several times in Moscow

    Alekseyev is a senior figure in the main directorate of Russia's military general staff (GRU) and is the latest high-ranking military figure to have been targeted in the capital since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine began almost four years ago.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3686nzexp3o

    Is this Ukraine?

    Seems a bit imaginative for the Windows-And-Suicide boys.
    I was assuming this general was aware of the dodgy window issue so had been carefully avoiding them for a few weeks, hence plan b
  • isamisam Posts: 43,520
    Keir Starmer has a blindspot when it comes to Labour grandees & their dubious associations.

    I’ve written to the PM demanding full transparency on why Matthew Doyle was elevated to the House of Lords despite serious red flags during vetting.

    There seems to be a pattern emerging.

    https://x.com/kemibadenoch/status/2019699066440183961?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,123

    Nigelb said:

    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...

    Is that not the whole idea of vetting though? To find out the extent of any concerns and whether or not there is more to be concerned about, which you were not aware of.

    Why even bother with vetting by your logic?
    That's your logic, not mine. It ought to be obvious what the point is.
    If we've decided now it was a huge mistake to appoint him (it was), that also should have been clear a year ago.

    I've no issue with those who said it was a mistake back then. It's the ones who enthusiastically supported the appointment, and are now saying it was an act of great turpitude.

    The vetting *in this case* shouldn't have really changed that judgment.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,493
    edited 9:12AM

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
    The odd thing is it is just tacked on to the end of a video alleging hacked voting machines at the 2020 election.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/116021857490657707
    I don’t think the tacking on is odd, it’s intentional to get the insult out which will then draw attention to the video.

    And remember the age old trick I pull, put something really contentious in the video so the other slightly less contentious things are accepted as fact
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,727
    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,921
    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes

    There are really no good candidates.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,555
    edited 9:14AM
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...

    Is that not the whole idea of vetting though? To find out the extent of any concerns and whether or not there is more to be concerned about, which you were not aware of.

    Why even bother with vetting by your logic?
    Indeed. We would expect MI5 and MI6 to read the Guardian and the FT but we would expect them to go just that little bit further, with all their public and secret powers to hack into stuff, listen to phone calls, read our emails and collate intelligence from the world.

    It's a bit like appointing Ian Huntley to be a school caretaker. You discover (under the modern system) that he has no convictions but keeps being investigated for relevant stuff. The red lights flashing inform the depth of your further research and your decision making. With PM, you know, being men of the world, that bad people do multiple bad things in addition to the ones you have found out, so let's make sure.

    After Ian Huntley, the formal vetting process was introduced for such posts.

    To make it an offence to appoint someone to work in such a role, without the full & *completed* vetting.

    So, every school caretaker, every teacher gets a CRB check (not to mention the enhanced version). My relative, who runs a building company, does a CRB check on his workers - they are in and out of people's houses, after all. Taxi drivers in London get an enhanced CRB.

    Would Mandy have passed an enhanced CRB?

    EDIT: emails are close to public domain. The security services (in every country) have been recording them for many, many years. A dig in that database would have been simple and easy. Was it done?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,727

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes

    There are really no good candidates.
    Streeting is probably the best of a not great bunch
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,676
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    AnneJGP said:

    I see from the picture that UK must pay £2billion to EU to help arm Ukraine but I can't read the text. Does it mean the EU takes the first £2b of anything we pay towards an EU project?

    There’s an EU project to arm Ukraine with confiscated Russian assets, but Macron doesn’t want the UK to benefit even though France can’t produce the weapons in sufficient numbers.
    It's nothing to do with Russian assets. The EU are borrowing it, taking it from their budget or chiselling it out of the UK (who will in turn have to borrow it).

    https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2026/02/04/council-agrees-position-on-legal-framework-to-provide-90-billion-in-financial-support-to-ukraine/

    Nobody had Belgium's back when it came to confiscating frozen Russian assets so that scheme is in the ditch.
    Lots of talk that the Russians had Kompromat on folk in Brussels. Which they used to block the confiscation.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,575
    Battlebus said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    Not correct. The way tax law works, is you either owe it or you don't. No need to pay it if you are in dispute as there are appeals to FTT and UTT if you are so inclined.

    Would you be so enthusiastic to pay money to HMRC if you didn't think you owed it? Why encourage others.
    WRT Rayner as next PM - which in principle is not the worst idea - I feel that in the end and after a lot of huffing and puffing the MPs will decide that the winner just has to be someone who is vanishingly unlikely to have stuff in their life history that will emerge to hinder or destroy them.

    Rayner is no sort of bad person I am sure. But as with Zahawi and his careless overlooking of the £5,000,000 he owed the HMRC, the lack of clear legal cover and lack of consultation with HMRC over the stamp duty thing means that a red light flashes about judgment and competence. This is sadly a disqualification. Being squeaky clean, and how you approach ensuring you are are equally important.

    As to betting on next Labour leader - which really is a Novices' Hurdle not a Derby - a guess is that the winner has to be: squeaky clean, a woman, serious, with decent political antennae, good at narrative which makes words mean something.

    Might Cooper be value?

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,676
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes

    There are really no good candidates.
    Streeting is probably the best of a not great bunch
    I reckon Streeting will disappoint. Don't like the guy - too much weasel DNA I reckon. Not what is needed by a country replacing Starmer.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,703
    Brixian59 said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    The problem that Labour has is who are the other options - all the main parties are threadbare when it comes to possible options to be PM
    Oh absolutely.

    I genuinely think that the last decade of social media has led to no-one of substance having any interest in politics.

    If Starmer was to fall, I’d support someone like John Healey to take over.
    Healey, Alexander, Cooper, Jones, Mcfadden are all very capable. Steady the ship.

    Centre right of the Party though.

    The pair who could emerge as unity candidates with very solid party support and females that scratches the need of some

    Thirnberry.
    Hillier.

    Meg Hillier is a modern day Hattie Harperson in many ways.
    Gosh, that’s just reinforced the paucity of talent in Labour for me, I’m afraid (not that any of the other parties look better).

    It’s hard to see beyond Streeting and Rayner for very good reasons. They, for different reasons, are the best communicators in the Party.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,894
    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    Her household was in financial trouble when she was born, because she grew up in poverty being raised by her grandma and left school at 16 without any qualifications.

    I like the idea of a PM with an authentic working class background who has overcome extreme adversity to get to the top. Any foreign leader worth their salt would take seriously someone who has, although some are obviously not worth their salt. I wouldn't blame her for looking down on those born with a silver spoon in their mouth, like Trump.
  • MustaphaMondeoMustaphaMondeo Posts: 471

    i am confused.

    Okay for Nadim Zahawi to become Chancellor and run for leader / PM
    Not OK for Angela Rayner to run for leader / PM

    ?

    Ya gotta b a good girl to get on. ?

  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 110
    Back to Mandy

    Growing belief amongst some of the more sensible unblinkered Lobby Journalists that McSweeney was leaving post in March, before locals to return to HQ role for locals and beyond.

    New CoS already chosen, reported by Sky and Guardian.

    Suspect he'll go after half term period a few days early.

    Bigger issue emerging is the battle between the Met Pol and CPS and Speaker of the House and how battle lines draw up.

    Met Police very much playing standard legal procedure of vital not to possibly contaminate evidence in to public domain.

    Speaker saying Parliament can overrule.

    My questions are this

    Is a Committee deemed to be watertight safe in terms of non disclosure. You can imagine pressure rabid tight Press will put on Members?

    As importantly how do likes of Badenoch, Davey, SNP play this. They should be very very cautious not to have the arrogance to believe that they are above the Law. I would imagine some Tory grandees like Davis, Grieve etc will be very hostile if Kamikaze Kemi who always knows best sidles up for a fight with the Met.

    Farage coincidentally is playing more of a waiting game, whether that's due to his links to Epstein or legally prudent or both will be interesting to watch.

    On topic. It may suit Ange and Starmer, who I and many think her and Hillier intervened to protect on Wednesday if Hmrc don't publish for a few months early June after locals may be ideal for them.

    There are plenty on opposition benches who have far greater hmrc and more politically based skeletons in their cupboards than ange.

    Interesting and not at all clear cut what happens next

    Btw

    Clevedon Labour hold in County and area Tories should be winning back seats in a crushing blow and clear sign Tories are in deep deep electoral dooh
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,727

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes

    There are really no good candidates.
    Streeting is probably the best of a not great bunch
    I reckon Streeting will disappoint. Don't like the guy - too much weasel DNA I reckon. Not what is needed by a country replacing Starmer.
    Well given it is going to have to be a Labour candidate if Streeting went in the next year or 2, if it is a choice between Streeting, Rayner or Ed Miliband to lead the UK on the world stage it is no contest
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,487

    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    Her household was in financial trouble when she was born, because she grew up in poverty being raised by her grandma and left school at 16 without any qualifications.

    I like the idea of a PM with an authentic working class background who has overcome extreme adversity to get to the top. Any foreign leader worth their salt would take seriously someone who has, although some are obviously not worth their salt. I wouldn't blame her for looking down on those born with a silver spoon in their mouth, like Trump.
    It's nice like the idea but do you like the reality? What has Rayner done, except for enrich herself and push business policies so far left even most unions don't back them?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,555
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...

    Is that not the whole idea of vetting though? To find out the extent of any concerns and whether or not there is more to be concerned about, which you were not aware of.

    Why even bother with vetting by your logic?
    That's your logic, not mine. It ought to be obvious what the point is.
    If we've decided now it was a huge mistake to appoint him (it was), that also should have been clear a year ago.

    I've no issue with those who said it was a mistake back then. It's the ones who enthusiastically supported the appointment, and are now saying it was an act of great turpitude.

    The vetting *in this case* shouldn't have really changed that judgment.
    I think that there is a middle case - those who held their noses a bit and *assumed* that the full vetting for the Ambassadors job would be done. And *assumed* that Mandy's "I'm innocent, because I'm gay" explanation covered the issue.

    I thought the appointment was a mistake, at the time.

    Another thing that wasn't in the public domain was the political angle - Mandy was known to be indiscreet in the face of wealth.

    But the revelation that he'd been systematically handing over information from the very heart of government, within minutes of receiving it was new. As was the recipe of money by him and his SO from Epstein. As was him giving advice on how to force the hand, on policy, of the government of which he was a part

    The cherry on top was the derogatory attitude towards his colleagues.

    I think this revelation was the straw that broke the political dimension of this so thoroughly - Mandy, in the views of just about everyone, betrayed the government, the Labour party and the national interest. Which is why there is not political support left to slow down or redact embarrassing information.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,894
    From listening to the news this morning, it appears that emails and WhatsApps between Mandelson and various senior government figures and advisers are likely to be released.

    The mind boggles as to what might potentially come out of that in the form of incidental remarks and the like.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,577

    i am confused.

    Okay for Nadim Zahawi to become Chancellor and run for leader / PM
    Not OK for Angela Rayner to run for leader / PM

    ?

    Who said it was okay for Nadim to run for leader? No doubt it wouldn't have gone well for the Tories had he won!

    It's not the Tories' fault that Rayner might become PM...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,555
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Russian general shot several times in Moscow

    Alekseyev is a senior figure in the main directorate of Russia's military general staff (GRU) and is the latest high-ranking military figure to have been targeted in the capital since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine began almost four years ago.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3686nzexp3o

    Is this Ukraine?

    Seems a bit imaginative for the Windows-And-Suicide boys.
    I was assuming this general was aware of the dodgy window issue so had been carefully avoiding them for a few weeks, hence plan b
    Surely, you bash them over the head, before throwing them out the window?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,313

    Nigelb said:

    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...

    Is that not the whole idea of vetting though? To find out the extent of any concerns and whether or not there is more to be concerned about, which you were not aware of.

    Why even bother with vetting by your logic?
    What stands out from a succession of spy scandals is the different standards of vetting for the likes of me and thee rather than those with a proper background. You and I might find ourselves disqualified for having an uncle who was once done for drunk and disorderly, whereas the likes of Peter Mandelson would be waved through despite the obvious red flags.

    The journalist and author Ben McIntyre is particular hot on this. It's certainly true that unless things have changed a lot since the days of Philby and Blunt there really is no point in vetting anyone. The Mandelson fiasco does suggest that things haven't changed that much.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,727

    Sandpit said:

    There’s really no question to which Angela Rayner is the answer.

    If she can’t run her own household without getting into financial trouble, what chance her running the country?

    Can we imagine her turning up to a meeting with Trump or Xi, and be taken remotely seriously?

    Her household was in financial trouble when she was born, because she grew up in poverty being raised by her grandma and left school at 16 without any qualifications.

    I like the idea of a PM with an authentic working class background who has overcome extreme adversity to get to the top. Any foreign leader worth their salt would take seriously someone who has, although some are obviously not worth their salt. I wouldn't blame her for looking down on those born with a silver spoon in their mouth, like Trump.
    Had she got to Oxbridge from that background or made herself a self made millionaire you might have a point but otherwise there are millions of single mother's raised on council estates who left school with no qualifications and maybe got a middle class office job with a bit of hard work. It doesn't mean they should be PM!

    Rayner would be a better campaigner than Starmer no doubt and she she would rally the left more behind her as Corbyn did but she would turn off centrist swing voters and in terms of actual competence for the job Starmer would be better. Sir Keir was himself raised in a relatively working class household and through sheer hard work did manage to get to university and an Oxford postgrad degree and the bar and KC and on that basis if it were a choice between Rayner or keeping Starmer I would keep him
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,555
    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    What will be the reaction of the remaining few non-insane Trumpers to this? Free speech innit, just your smelly, old relative’s spicy sense of humour or as is now mostly the case, stare fixedly in the opposite direction and pretend it doesn’t exist?

    https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/2019644111595475407?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Christ, that's Trump sharing images of the Obamas as monkeys.
    The more senile Trump becomes, the more she shows what he is.
    That’s grim, even by his standards.
    I think, at this point, it's a bit grim to think he has any standards.

    He's jumped out of the Overton window. And is wingsuiting to the horizon.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,061
    edited 9:27AM

    'I'll check we've got that the right way round'

    https://x.com/deanbegley1/status/2019341636103467066?s=20

    Apart from the hilarity of GB News not having its finger on the faltering pulse of the zeitgeist, that vividly painted pantomime dame is Anne Diamond! After the recent Jan Leaming brouhaha, what the hell is going on with our female newsreaders? Can we expect the fragrant Anna Ford to pop up in the Epstein files?

    ...And Anne Diamond has turned into Margaret Hodge. That's what happens when the BBC make 40 the cut off age for female newscasters. Great clip though!
  • eekeek Posts: 32,493

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Russian general shot several times in Moscow

    Alekseyev is a senior figure in the main directorate of Russia's military general staff (GRU) and is the latest high-ranking military figure to have been targeted in the capital since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine began almost four years ago.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3686nzexp3o

    Is this Ukraine?

    Seems a bit imaginative for the Windows-And-Suicide boys.
    I was assuming this general was aware of the dodgy window issue so had been carefully avoiding them for a few weeks, hence plan b
    Surely, you bash them over the head, before throwing them out the window?
    To bash him over the head you need to get round the people protecting him.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 110
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes

    There are really no good candidates.
    Streeting is probably the best of a not great bunch
    I reckon Streeting will disappoint. Don't like the guy - too much weasel DNA I reckon. Not what is needed by a country replacing Starmer.
    Well given it is going to have to be a Labour candidate if Streeting went in the next year or 2, if it is a choice between Streeting, Rayner or Ed Miliband to lead the UK on the world stage it is no contest
    The equal argument would be the utter shits how Badenoch would be.

    Granted she is a pin up girl of Antipidean Farmers for giving them an agricultural trade agreement that they are still mssturbsting over, her arrogance and ego and argumentative tendencies would be a disaster when diplomacy is key

    Add in the disgraced Mossad Agent the MP for Witham and Tel Aviv and it's crystal clear that the UK would be globally ridiculed by a Tory Government
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,009
    An interesting aspect of the housing question which doesn't get much discussion:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgykp79ezyo
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,676
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes

    There are really no good candidates.
    Streeting is probably the best of a not great bunch
    I reckon Streeting will disappoint. Don't like the guy - too much weasel DNA I reckon. Not what is needed by a country replacing Starmer.
    Well given it is going to have to be a Labour candidate if Streeting went in the next year or 2, if it is a choice between Streeting, Rayner or Ed Miliband to lead the UK on the world stage it is no contest
    The equal argument would be the utter shits how Badenoch would be.

    Granted she is a pin up girl of Antipidean Farmers for giving them an agricultural trade agreement that they are still mssturbsting over, her arrogance and ego and argumentative tendencies would be a disaster when diplomacy is key

    Add in the disgraced Mossad Agent the MP for Witham and Tel Aviv and it's crystal clear that the UK would be globally ridiculed by a Tory Government
    Badenoch Badenoch Badenoch Badenoch Badenoch Badenoch Badenoch Badenoch Badenoch Badenoch

    YAWN...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,727
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes

    There are really no good candidates.
    Streeting is probably the best of a not great bunch
    I reckon Streeting will disappoint. Don't like the guy - too much weasel DNA I reckon. Not what is needed by a country replacing Starmer.
    Well given it is going to have to be a Labour candidate if Streeting went in the next year or 2, if it is a choice between Streeting, Rayner or Ed Miliband to lead the UK on the world stage it is no contest
    Sorry, if Starmer went in the next year or 2
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,156

    'I'll check we've got that the right way round'

    https://x.com/deanbegley1/status/2019341636103467066?s=20

    Apart from the hilarity of GB News not having its finger on the faltering pulse of the zeitgeist, that vividly painted pantomime dame is Anne Diamond! After the recent Jan Leaming brouhaha, what the hell is going on with our female newsreaders? Can we expect the fragrant Anna Ford to pop up in the Epstein files?

    I was on 1FTS at Linton when a fellow student became horribly, snottily and tearfully maudlin drunk in the Dawnay Arms in the village. We had various electrical contraptions to supplement our meagre junior officers' salaries from the fruit machine in there and were therefore regulars. When we eventually inquired into the source of his Strongbow soaked misery, he sobbed, "ANNE DIAMOND WAS MEANT FOR MY COCK AND MY COCK ALONE!". She had got married earlier that week. For the remainder of his very long and very successful RAF and RNZAF career he was known as "Mr. Diamond". True story.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 110
    algarkirk said:

    Battlebus said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wait, so HMRC are working out if she owes them money or not? I thought it was an individual's responsibility to pay the correct tax.

    If she has leadership ambitions, why is she quibbling. Simply pay the tax.

    Not correct. The way tax law works, is you either owe it or you don't. No need to pay it if you are in dispute as there are appeals to FTT and UTT if you are so inclined.

    Would you be so enthusiastic to pay money to HMRC if you didn't think you owed it? Why encourage others.
    WRT Rayner as next PM - which in principle is not the worst idea - I feel that in the end and after a lot of huffing and puffing the MPs will decide that the winner just has to be someone who is vanishingly unlikely to have stuff in their life history that will emerge to hinder or destroy them.

    Rayner is no sort of bad person I am sure. But as with Zahawi and his careless overlooking of the £5,000,000 he owed the HMRC, the lack of clear legal cover and lack of consultation with HMRC over the stamp duty thing means that a red light flashes about judgment and competence. This is sadly a disqualification. Being squeaky clean, and how you approach ensuring you are are equally important.

    As to betting on next Labour leader - which really is a Novices' Hurdle not a Derby - a guess is that the winner has to be: squeaky clean, a woman, serious, with decent political antennae, good at narrative which makes words mean something.

    Might Cooper be value?

    The mist impressive Cooper to be a Party Leader is IMHO the very underrated Daisy

    Ed D needs to step aside
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,044
    stodge said:

    An interesting aspect of the housing question which doesn't get much discussion:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgykp79ezyo

    It does if you have an aged aunt who has finally got rid of her McCarthy and Stone flat in Wokingham after it being empty for over 2 years.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,555

    Nigelb said:

    Exactly what information was the vetting supposed to reveal ?
    Certainly not the cabinet leaks, since no one knew about that until now.

    The relationship itself was common knowledge, and it's utterly absurd to pretend otherwise.
    A fair percentage of those now baying for Starmer's blood waxed lyrical over the appointment at the time (the Mail's Hodge, for example).

    The Epstein file release didn't substantially alter what we knew:

    Peter Mandelson swears at reporter after question on Epstein relationship (Feb 2025)
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/06/peter-mandelson-swears-at-reporter-after-question-on-epstein-relationship
    Peter Mandelson told a reporter to “fuck off” when asked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

    He was questioned about his links with the billionaire paedophile in an interview with the Financial Times as he prepares to become Britain’s ambassador to Washington. However, he told the reporter in no uncertain terms that he did not want to discuss it.

    Lord Mandelson said: “I regret ever meeting him or being introduced to him by his partner Ghislaine Maxwell.

    “I regret even more the hurt he caused to many young women.

    “I’m not going to go into this. It’s an FT obsession and frankly you can all fuck off. OK?”

    The pair’s connections have raised questions since a 2019 internal report on Epstein by JP Morgan bank was filed to a New York court.

    It found Epstein appeared to “maintain a particularly close relationship with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York and Lord Peter Mandelson, a senior member of British government”...

    Is that not the whole idea of vetting though? To find out the extent of any concerns and whether or not there is more to be concerned about, which you were not aware of.

    Why even bother with vetting by your logic?
    What stands out from a succession of spy scandals is the different standards of vetting for the likes of me and thee rather than those with a proper background. You and I might find ourselves disqualified for having an uncle who was once done for drunk and disorderly, whereas the likes of Peter Mandelson would be waved through despite the obvious red flags.

    The journalist and author Ben McIntyre is particular hot on this. It's certainly true that unless things have changed a lot since the days of Philby and Blunt there really is no point in vetting anyone. The Mandelson fiasco does suggest that things haven't changed that much.
    And we are back to the #NU10K - in the Goode Olde Days* Philby wasn't vetted properly because he was a Good Chap.

    Now we don't vet, because they are Proper People.

    If we can manage to have a register for struck off NHS Managers, perhaps we can enforce vetting on all government appointments above a certain level.

    If the PM wants to hire X, he gets a fat file on X. Complete with the list of concerns. The PM can initial next to each concern, that he has seen it and it's all fine.

    *Which weren't
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,894
    edited 9:34AM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, Rayner's tax affairs may ultimately end any potential leadership bid by her. Which is why I make Streeting now likeliest to succeed Starmer if and when he goes

    There are really no good candidates.
    Streeting is probably the best of a not great bunch
    I reckon Streeting will disappoint. Don't like the guy - too much weasel DNA I reckon. Not what is needed by a country replacing Starmer.
    Well given it is going to have to be a Labour candidate if Streeting went in the next year or 2, if it is a choice between Streeting, Rayner or Ed Miliband to lead the UK on the world stage it is no contest
    You're entitled to your opinion.

    However, in electoral terms, the opinions on the choice of potential Labour leaders that matter are from those who might consider voting Labour at the next general election.

    As a potential PM, Streeting is viewed more favourably than some of the other candidates by those who would never contemplate voting for Labour in 2029 whatever the leader, but their views don't really matter in electoral terms.
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