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The is a bit of a mess for Find Out Now – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,921
edited 8:34AM in General
The is a bit of a mess for Find Out Now – politicalbetting.com

The fallout from that Find Out Now poll is a bit of a mess, over a decade ago a pollster told ‘you’re only as good as your last poll’, on that basis it’s not good for Find Out Now, but for them there’s a few elections coming up for them to recover as I cannot recall ever a pollster saying their poll isn’t statistically signficant.

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Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,682
    First?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,983
    Morning all :)

    Well, yes, but the problem with the "poll" is that it has created a narrative, set the tone (whatever you want) for the contest. I think it's a poor poll for Reform as it has stuck a great big target on Goodwin's back showing he can be defeated but we'll see.

    As for Tinsley, Crick is as usual being absurd. Why do you have to "belong to a party" as though you were a brand of cat food? It'sperfectly possible for people to have connections to and dealings parties they don't support and suggesting a partisan motive isn't helpful. Most people don't understand most things about polls and polling (that's obvious on here for example). They just see the headline figures and jump into "over analysis" mode.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,983

    First?

    Apparently so. Kudos.

    If I were being a little critical, far from the most original opening comment for a thread.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,399
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,399
    On topic, it also perhaps suggests they were rather foolish to agree to a poll they couldn't actually do a decent job on, which is in itself not a great look.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,961
    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,459
    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    Perhaps 143 asked and only 51 ventured an opinion?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,454
    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    143 replied. Only 51 said they were voting and said for what party.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,019
    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    The sample was 143, out of that 143 just 51 expressed a voting intention.

    In most other polls you have 75%+ respondents expressing a voting intention, here it is barely 35%.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,259

    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    143 replied. Only 51 said they were voting and said for what party.
    So it's not Find Out Nowt, it's Find Turnout Now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,544
    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,399
    carnforth said:

    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    143 replied. Only 51 said they were voting and said for what party.
    So it's not Find Out Nowt, it's Find Turnout Now.
    Sounds like the response was overwhelmingly 'Fuck Off Now.'
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,682
    stodge said:

    First?

    Apparently so. Kudos.

    If I were being a little critical, far from the most original opening comment for a thread.
    It's a trade off innit. Spend time thinking of something original to say and you risk losing the coveted first spot. The second comment came one minute after my own so I'm glad I didn't hang around. And I'm struggling to say anything original even now to be honest. I had a late night in my defence.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,399

    stodge said:

    First?

    Apparently so. Kudos.

    If I were being a little critical, far from the most original opening comment for a thread.
    It's a trade off innit. Spend time thinking of something original to say and you risk losing the coveted first spot. The second comment came one minute after my own so I'm glad I didn't hang around. And I'm struggling to say anything original even now to be honest. I had a late night in my defence.
    What did you feel the need to defend that caused you to have a late night?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,944
    edited 8:55AM

    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    The sample was 143, out of that 143 just 51 expressed a voting intention.

    In most other polls you have 75%+ respondents expressing a voting intention, here it is barely 35%.
    What turnout are we expecting? For me, that low FON percentage strikes me as reliable for a low-turnout by-election and a poll conducted before candidates were known, and when the anti-Burnham shenanigans were in people's minds. It is the low number, not the low percentage, that provides cause for concern.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,961
    HYUFD said:

    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.

    Perhaps, but that would be just a lucky guess by those reporting FON rather than any real evidence.

    One advantage of the FON system of piggybacking the postcode lottery is that they can do constituency samples easily. The question over how representative they are is the issue, in particular as to which demographics they miss.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,448
    In that brief, glorious, interval where New Top Gear was funny not thuggish, one of Clarkson's catchphrases was "how hard can it be?" Hilarity reliably followed when the answer turned out to be "much harder than you imagined."

    FON strike me as what would happen if Clarkson, May and Hammond set up a polling firm, just with fewer jokes.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,007
    edited 9:00AM
    Surely one of PBs budding copywriters* can think of a nice alternative for the acronym FoN? There were some pretty good ones for YouGov in the early days. 'AnythingYouwantGov' was a favourite.

    *Sunil?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,961

    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    The sample was 143, out of that 143 just 51 expressed a voting intention.

    In most other polls you have 75%+ respondents expressing a voting intention, here it is barely 35%.
    35% sounds about right for a byelection though. The MOE on a 51 sample must be huge.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,141
    Roger said:

    Surely one of PBs budding copywriters* can think of a nice alternative for the acronym FoN? There were some pretty good ones for YouGov in the early days. 'AnythingYouwantGov' was a favourite.

    *Sunil?

    Find Out Nothing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,019
    edited 9:14AM
    HYUFD said:

    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.

    Have you read the quotes, FON say the poll isn't statistically relevant, they are themselves this poll is utter garbage.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,433

    HYUFD said:

    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.

    Have you read the quotes, FON say the poll isn't statically relevant, they are themselves this poll is utter garbage.
    Ratneresque..
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,454
    edited 9:11AM
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    The sample was 143, out of that 143 just 51 expressed a voting intention.

    In most other polls you have 75%+ respondents expressing a voting intention, here it is barely 35%.
    35% sounds about right for a byelection though. The MOE on a 51 sample must be huge.

    I gave the numbers at https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/5439498/#Comment_5439498

    If you have a random sample, then even a sample of 51 tells you something.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,358
    Did they take their cue from this guy?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOPZuXh-f5M
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,007
    Dura_Ace said:

    Roger said:

    Surely one of PBs budding copywriters* can think of a nice alternative for the acronym FoN? There were some pretty good ones for YouGov in the early days. 'AnythingYouwantGov' was a favourite.

    *Sunil?

    Find Out Nothing.
    Simple but accurate. Another 'FindoutNothing' poll. It works for me.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,118
    @atrupar.com‬

    Trump on his multiple suits against the federal government: "I'm supposed to work out a settlement with myself ... We could make it a substantial amount, nobody would care, because it's gonna go to numerous, very good charities."

    @markjacob.bsky.social‬

    He's looting the U.S. Treasury, people. Most crooked dictators find covert ways to get rich. Trump intends to simply order his government to transfer money into his bank account.

    @nathankalmoe.bsky.social‬

    Usually dictators are more subtle about looting the treasury, because gross corruption is often a part of what gets them overthrown.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,019
    Absolutely off topic.

    In which battle did Horatio Nelson die?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,541
    ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    143 replied. Only 51 said they were voting and said for what party.
    So it's not Find Out Nowt, it's Find Turnout Now.
    Sounds like the response was overwhelmingly 'Fuck Off Now.'
    I'll put you down as Reform then...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,983

    HYUFD said:

    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.

    Have you read the quotes, FON say the poll isn't statistically relevant, they are themselves this poll is utter garbage.
    Yes but the "damage" is done - the poll is out there and we and others have been hyper ventiliating over it for two days and the leaflets for the by election write themselves on the back of this poll.

    Whatever its merits or otherwise, it has set the agenda and the tone at least for now.

    Look at how many by-elections have been "influenced" by late polls showing challengers closing on leaders and I remember Michael Portillo saying his defeat at Enfield Southgate in 1997 was caused by an Observer poll the weekend before showing the level of swing in Conservative seats like his was far greater (was it 15-17%?) than the UNS swing on poll headline numbers which was nearer 10%?

    Even in 2024, the swing in some seats was far greater than any national move - in Chippenham the LDs won on a swing of 21%, the national swing from Con to LD was more like 11-12%.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,222
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.

    Have you read the quotes, FON say the poll isn't statistically relevant, they are themselves this poll is utter garbage.
    Yes but the "damage" is done - the poll is out there and we and others have been hyper ventiliating over it for two days and the leaflets for the by election write themselves on the back of this poll.

    Whatever its merits or otherwise, it has set the agenda and the tone at least for now.

    Look at how many by-elections have been "influenced" by late polls showing challengers closing on leaders and I remember Michael Portillo saying his defeat at Enfield Southgate in 1997 was caused by an Observer poll the weekend before showing the level of swing in Conservative seats like his was far greater (was it 15-17%?) than the UNS swing on poll headline numbers which was nearer 10%?

    Even in 2024, the swing in some seats was far greater than any national move - in Chippenham the LDs won on a swing of 21%, the national swing from Con to LD was more like 11-12%.
    Not sure the last two paragraphs are linked. Was there a local Chippenham poll?

    UNS was always an average of a range of swings.

    Which was cause and which was effect?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,353

    Absolutely off topic.

    In which battle did Horatio Nelson die?

    You are saying that there is a polling company called Taraf al-Ghar?

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,872
    I would rather have this FON poll than not. It's 143 people, 51 with a preference, showing the result we got. It is not really a poll, it's more or less a subsample, however, that doesn't make the information of no value.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,375
    edited 9:39AM
    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,509
    I am sure FON have made a significant mistake. At least they are on the path to acknowledging it.

    It seems to me that the apology is an underused piece of armour in public life. Getting out an apology which is clear, unambiguous, doesn't make qualifications, doesn't use the words 'but' or however' and doesn't transfer part of the blame is not used enough. It is a powerful PR weapon. But the most important element is to do it early and 'get your blow in first' (St Trinian's excellent and true motto), and well before you have started down the usual track of: silence, denial, justification, evasion, transfer of blame to other parties, blaming the media, minimising, pivoting, threatening to issue a writ and so on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,961
    Labour does seem to have chosen a good local candidate.

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3mdpu525r5k2r

    Noticeably more ethnically diverse (albeit smaller) crowd than for the Greens.

    Also a promise from Burnham to help:

    https://bsky.app/profile/andyburnham.bsky.social/post/3mdqfin7bc22y
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,961
    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,148
    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,757
    Interesting data breakdown from Nate Silver's site:

    "The share of Americans who strongly disapprove of the job Trump is doing hit a second term high of 45.7 percent yesterday. Comparatively few Americans — 24.2 percent — strongly approve of Trump."

    So while the headline net approval rate is -14.3%, the net strong approval rate is -21.5%. That's what came through in yesterday's state senate special election, and what I think will be decisive in November.

    The myth here is America is equally divided pro and anti Trump. While that division is real, it's clearly no longer the case that it's an equal one.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,019

    HYUFD said:

    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.

    Have you read the quotes, FON say the poll isn't statically relevant, they are themselves this poll is utter garbage.
    Ratneresque..
    My brain first went to Brett not Gerald.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,364
    edited 9:56AM
    Foxy said:

    Labour does seem to have chosen a good local candidate.

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3mdpu525r5k2r

    Noticeably more ethnically diverse (albeit smaller) crowd than for the Greens.

    Also a promise from Burnham to help:

    https://bsky.app/profile/andyburnham.bsky.social/post/3mdqfin7bc22y

    Labour's candidate (Angeliki Stogia) came quite close to winning Chester South and Eddisbury in the 2024 GE; a new seat, but strongly Tory, I think.

    I don't think Reform would win Gorton and Denton anyway, but I wonder if they'll regret choosing a member of the southern metropolitan academic far-right elite to contest it, when both Greens and Labour have chosen strong local candidates.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,509
    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    I had never heard of Peoples Postcode Lottery until someone drew attention to it as a source for the polling target. SFAICS only a small % of the UK population are subscribers. IMO the best way of finding out their likely demographic is to guess based on who they target their advertising towards. I have never knowingly seen any!

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,259
    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    To begin with he was a nuanced Remainer:

    https://www.maxhastings.com/2016/05/31/its-an-unholy-mess-but-heres-why-im-voting-to-stay-in-the-eu/

    But radicalised by the fact of the result, I think.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,944
    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    Exactly.

    But hold on, what are the alternatives? Political obsessives who have signed up for every panel going (the early days of pb regularly had posts from those who had just completed questionnaires) are hardly representative. Or those desperate enough for money that they will spend half an hour answering hypothetical marketing questions before the political ones? A few years ago, it would have been those out and about during the day with time to kill, or those phoned at home by polling companies too stupid to realise their phone number randomisation methods could never work and who would take the call.

    FON's approach seems be better than most of these, at least in principle. Ask one or two questions only to people already on a site for different reasons.

    Here is my nailed-on prediction for the next general election. The day after, the polling companies will announce an inquiry into why the polls were wrong. They always do, because they always are.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,399
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    I had never heard of Peoples Postcode Lottery until someone drew attention to it as a source for the polling target. SFAICS only a small % of the UK population are subscribers. IMO the best way of finding out their likely demographic is to guess based on who they target their advertising towards. I have never knowingly seen any!

    Guy I used to work with won £250K on it.

    Bought a green hot hatch and saved the rest.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,541
    Ratters said:

    Interesting data breakdown from Nate Silver's site:

    "The share of Americans who strongly disapprove of the job Trump is doing hit a second term high of 45.7 percent yesterday. Comparatively few Americans — 24.2 percent — strongly approve of Trump."

    So while the headline net approval rate is -14.3%, the net strong approval rate is -21.5%. That's what came through in yesterday's state senate special election, and what I think will be decisive in November.

    The myth here is America is equally divided pro and anti Trump. While that division is real, it's clearly no longer the case that it's an equal one.

    Racist clowns down to 24.2%

    Bet they all have guns though.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,944
    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    I had never heard of Peoples Postcode Lottery until someone drew attention to it as a source for the polling target. SFAICS only a small % of the UK population are subscribers. IMO the best way of finding out their likely demographic is to guess based on who they target their advertising towards. I have never knowingly seen any!

    Guy I used to work with won £250K on it.

    Bought a green hot hatch and saved the rest.
    A question for the ages. If you don't want to change your life, why are you doing the flipping lottery?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,259
    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    To begin with he was a nuanced Remainer:

    https://www.maxhastings.com/2016/05/31/its-an-unholy-mess-but-heres-why-im-voting-to-stay-in-the-eu/

    But radicalised by the fact of the result, I think.
    Actually, on further reading, looks like dislike of his former Telegraph underling Boris was the straw...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,541
    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    To begin with he was a nuanced Remainer:

    https://www.maxhastings.com/2016/05/31/its-an-unholy-mess-but-heres-why-im-voting-to-stay-in-the-eu/

    But radicalised by the fact of the result, I think.
    Yeah, but will he be voting Labour next time out?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,230
    edited 10:07AM
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    I had never heard of Peoples Postcode Lottery until someone drew attention to it as a source for the polling target. SFAICS only a small % of the UK population are subscribers. IMO the best way of finding out their likely demographic is to guess based on who they target their advertising towards. I have never knowingly seen any!

    My cousin won £10k on it.

    Edit. Considerably less impressive than Taz's workmate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,541

    Foxy said:

    Labour does seem to have chosen a good local candidate.

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3mdpu525r5k2r

    Noticeably more ethnically diverse (albeit smaller) crowd than for the Greens.

    Also a promise from Burnham to help:

    https://bsky.app/profile/andyburnham.bsky.social/post/3mdqfin7bc22y

    Labour's candidate (Angeliki Stogia)
    Wot - stodgier than our own Stodge?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,433
    edited 10:05AM
    I know there are a few Wings Over Scotland fans on here (none of them supporters of indy strangely). This isn't exactly Harold Bloom but a pithy takedown nonetheless. Wingsy's self frotting over the ICE shootings is reminiscent of his obsession with Liverpool fans being to blame for the Hillsborough disaster. A warning that being obsessively contrarian can mean you end up speaking from within your own rectum.

    https://x.com/discontent_scot/status/2017639406228644121?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,353
    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    If my experience in Morocco are any kind of indication, quite a few Muslims drink. A lot.

    IIRC the online lottery that FON uses is free, which can be used as an excuse to get round religious prohibitions. See “Vodka is made from potatoes, so isn’t ‘fruit of the grape’”
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,353

    Ratters said:

    Interesting data breakdown from Nate Silver's site:

    "The share of Americans who strongly disapprove of the job Trump is doing hit a second term high of 45.7 percent yesterday. Comparatively few Americans — 24.2 percent — strongly approve of Trump."

    So while the headline net approval rate is -14.3%, the net strong approval rate is -21.5%. That's what came through in yesterday's state senate special election, and what I think will be decisive in November.

    The myth here is America is equally divided pro and anti Trump. While that division is real, it's clearly no longer the case that it's an equal one.

    Racist clowns down to 24.2%

    Bet they all have guns though.
    It was never equal. The reason that the MAGA are a force is differential turnout - Trump gets them to the polls.

    This is one reason why, without Trump, all the successors lose in polling matchups.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,433
    edited 10:09AM
    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    To begin with he was a nuanced Remainer:

    https://www.maxhastings.com/2016/05/31/its-an-unholy-mess-but-heres-why-im-voting-to-stay-in-the-eu/

    But radicalised by the fact of the result, I think.
    A telling sign of the state of British politics that voting for Starmer might be considered to involve anything with the word radical in it.
    Though tbf PB's own Ezra Pound also voted for Starmy.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,944
    algarkirk said:

    I am sure FON have made a significant mistake. At least they are on the path to acknowledging it.

    It seems to me that the apology is an underused piece of armour in public life. Getting out an apology which is clear, unambiguous, doesn't make qualifications, doesn't use the words 'but' or however' and doesn't transfer part of the blame is not used enough. It is a powerful PR weapon. But the most important element is to do it early and 'get your blow in first' (St Trinian's excellent and true motto), and well before you have started down the usual track of: silence, denial, justification, evasion, transfer of blame to other parties, blaming the media, minimising, pivoting, threatening to issue a writ and so on.

    Paul McCartney on Elvis's macho approach to apologies:-
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/j9978nOnEWQ
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,948

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway if we think Andrew M-W is embarrassing, what has come out about the Norwegian Crown Princess and her son, currently facing 38 charges, 4 of them for rape, and Epstein is far worse.

    Prior to her marrying the Crown Prince, she had been in several relationships with drug-trafficking gangsters, one of whom fathered her son, now standing trial.

    I find it impossible to fathom how the Norwegian government or royal family could have allowed that marriage. And, impossible to believe that she can be queen, especially in light of her dealings with Epstein.
    I think you're mixing up two different people ?

    The Epstein princess, according to the BBC report, is the Crown Prince's older sister (who lost her royal title in 2024).

    The Prince's wife has nothing to do with Epstein (and is seriously ill, awaiting a lung transplant).
    Ah, my bad.
    You’re right and Nigelb is wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mette-Marit,_Crown_Princess_of_Norway
    Happy to admit my ignorance on this one.

    The only thing I've read in it was the BBC article, which described the Epstein connections of the Prince's sister married to the US shaman (sic), and talked at length about the Crown Princess without mentioning her Epstein involvement.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,148

    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    To begin with he was a nuanced Remainer:

    https://www.maxhastings.com/2016/05/31/its-an-unholy-mess-but-heres-why-im-voting-to-stay-in-the-eu/

    But radicalised by the fact of the result, I think.
    Yeah, but will he be voting Labour next time out?
    Didn’t sound like he will. He thinks Starmer is weak and useless but warned people on the right that Starmer being replaced will be worse as the other potential PMs are far more left wing - totally up controversial point but you could sense the regret.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,944

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    If my experience in Morocco are any kind of indication, quite a few Muslims drink. A lot.

    IIRC the online lottery that FON uses is free, which can be used as an excuse to get round religious prohibitions. See “Vodka is made from potatoes, so isn’t ‘fruit of the grape’”
    Muslim *men* as a lady Muslim friend said with disgust.

    But yes, free to enter means it's not gambling. The early horseracing meetings in Dubai had no betting, obviously, but there were free competitions to pick all the winners. I do not know what they are like now.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,007
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    To begin with he was a nuanced Remainer:

    https://www.maxhastings.com/2016/05/31/its-an-unholy-mess-but-heres-why-im-voting-to-stay-in-the-eu/

    But radicalised by the fact of the result, I think.
    Actually, on further reading, looks like dislike of his former Telegraph underling Boris was the straw...
    Good article.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,948
    edited 10:23AM
    .
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    To begin with he was a nuanced Remainer:

    https://www.maxhastings.com/2016/05/31/its-an-unholy-mess-but-heres-why-im-voting-to-stay-in-the-eu/

    But radicalised by the fact of the result, I think.
    Actually, on further reading, looks like dislike of his former Telegraph underling Boris was the straw...
    I think you mean "principled contempt for his former employee ?"
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,944
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    To begin with he was a nuanced Remainer:

    https://www.maxhastings.com/2016/05/31/its-an-unholy-mess-but-heres-why-im-voting-to-stay-in-the-eu/

    But radicalised by the fact of the result, I think.
    Actually, on further reading, looks like dislike of his former Telegraph underling Boris was the straw...
    Well, he had met him.

    We often talk of nepotism and the old school tie but there are other ways the deck is stacked. Boris got his Telegraph job after he had been sacked by the Times for lying because he'd met and impressed Max Hastings at the Oxford Union.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,948

    Foxy said:

    How did the sample go from 143 to 51?

    The sample was 143, out of that 143 just 51 expressed a voting intention.

    In most other polls you have 75%+ respondents expressing a voting intention, here it is barely 35%.
    Is the VI generally lower on by election polls ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,948

    stodge said:

    First?

    Apparently so. Kudos.

    If I were being a little critical, far from the most original opening comment for a thread.
    It's a trade off innit. Spend time thinking of something original to say and you risk losing the coveted first spot. The second comment came one minute after my own so I'm glad I didn't hang around. And I'm struggling to say anything original even now to be honest. I had a late night in my defence.
    You have several minutes to edit in a flash of brilliance ...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,353

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    If my experience in Morocco are any kind of indication, quite a few Muslims drink. A lot.

    IIRC the online lottery that FON uses is free, which can be used as an excuse to get round religious prohibitions. See “Vodka is made from potatoes, so isn’t ‘fruit of the grape’”
    Muslim *men* as a lady Muslim friend said with disgust.

    But yes, free to enter means it's not gambling. The early horseracing meetings in Dubai had no betting, obviously, but there were free competitions to pick all the winners. I do not know what they are like now.
    Charging interest is forbidden. But service charges proportional to the loan are AOK.

    Beavers are fish, did you know that?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,459

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    If my experience in Morocco are any kind of indication, quite a few Muslims drink. A lot.

    IIRC the online lottery that FON uses is free, which can be used as an excuse to get round religious prohibitions. See “Vodka is made from potatoes, so isn’t ‘fruit of the grape’”
    Muslim *men* as a lady Muslim friend said with disgust.

    But yes, free to enter means it's not gambling. The early horseracing meetings in Dubai had no betting, obviously, but there were free competitions to pick all the winners. I do not know what they are like now.
    Charging interest is forbidden. But service charges proportional to the loan are AOK.

    Beavers are fish, did you know that?
    Be fair. In the Middle Ages the Rule prevented talking when eating dinner in the refectory. So monks invented a second dining room, the misericord, where they'd chat to one another.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,358
    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,875
    Oh dear what was Polanski thinking ?

    Legalising class A drugs ! Not sure this is a vote winner .

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,353
    edited 10:51AM

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    If my experience in Morocco are any kind of indication, quite a few Muslims drink. A lot.

    IIRC the online lottery that FON uses is free, which can be used as an excuse to get round religious prohibitions. See “Vodka is made from potatoes, so isn’t ‘fruit of the grape’”
    Muslim *men* as a lady Muslim friend said with disgust.

    But yes, free to enter means it's not gambling. The early horseracing meetings in Dubai had no betting, obviously, but there were free competitions to pick all the winners. I do not know what they are like now.
    Charging interest is forbidden. But service charges proportional to the loan are AOK.

    Beavers are fish, did you know that?
    Be fair. In the Middle Ages the Rule prevented talking when eating dinner in the refectory. So monks invented a second dining room, the misericord, where they'd chat to one another.
    And thus began the legend of Second Breakfast
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,187

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Given his well-evidenced opinion of Boris, I'd be surprised if he voted Conservative in 2019 either.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,948

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Yes, decent bloke.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,353
    nico67 said:

    Oh dear what was Polanski thinking ?

    Legalising class A drugs ! Not sure this is a vote winner .

    It would collapse much of the systems of organised crime in the U.K.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,944
    nico67 said:

    Oh dear what was Polanski thinking ?

    Legalising class A drugs ! Not sure this is a vote winner .

    Nor am I but is it a vote loser? When was the last time a celebrity was cancelled over drug use? Or politician? Cameron, Osborne, Boris, Gove?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,983

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.

    Have you read the quotes, FON say the poll isn't statistically relevant, they are themselves this poll is utter garbage.
    Yes but the "damage" is done - the poll is out there and we and others have been hyper ventiliating over it for two days and the leaflets for the by election write themselves on the back of this poll.

    Whatever its merits or otherwise, it has set the agenda and the tone at least for now.

    Look at how many by-elections have been "influenced" by late polls showing challengers closing on leaders and I remember Michael Portillo saying his defeat at Enfield Southgate in 1997 was caused by an Observer poll the weekend before showing the level of swing in Conservative seats like his was far greater (was it 15-17%?) than the UNS swing on poll headline numbers which was nearer 10%?

    Even in 2024, the swing in some seats was far greater than any national move - in Chippenham the LDs won on a swing of 21%, the national swing from Con to LD was more like 11-12%.
    Not sure the last two paragraphs are linked. Was there a local Chippenham poll?

    UNS was always an average of a range of swings.

    Which was cause and which was effect?
    I don't know but the point is UNS and individual constituency swings can and often are very different and that can be down tolocal campaigning and/or external factors such as the Observer poll. From what I recall, Labour abandoned other seats in North London which they could see they were going to win and went in to Enfield Southgate in the last four or five days and worked it hard and got the result they wanted.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,187
    So of 143 only 51 expressed a voting intention and 19% of those, 10, were Don't Know, so only 41 people made a positive choice.
    If I was Mr Tinsley I'd be withholding payment.

    More importantly how does this affect the PB competition if FON are disqualified by the BPC?
    Less than 14% might not be a mistake after all!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,541

    nico67 said:

    Oh dear what was Polanski thinking ?

    Legalising class A drugs ! Not sure this is a vote winner .

    Nor am I but is it a vote loser? When was the last time a celebrity was cancelled over drug use? Or politician? Cameron, Osborne, Boris, Gove?
    Going for the coked-up footie fan vote?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,559
    FIND OUTLIERS NOW!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,411

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    I think he voted for Blair’s government.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,375
    Having been a professional Market Researcher at one point in my life, these sub samples reflect the enshitification of genuine research. You can see it in the adverts for certain products e.g sample size 28. Seems to be driven by this constant need for clicks, news and PR.

    At least here you have a peer group that will challenge - even if some are never wrong.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,411

    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Can't find any UK sources but US data indicates that it's those in lower socio-economic status neighbourhoods that tend to gamble. So if there is self-selection, you could argue that it was only certain voters in certain parts of G&D that took part. Add to the ethnic/religious mix (do Muslims gamble?) then the poll is about as useful as a Horoscope.

    You can check yours here.

    It’s good to be confident but don’t overdo it and think you can make a success of something that even experts are reluctant to attempt. If you insist on having a go, be sure to prepare well and have the support of friends. Don’t climb mountains without back-up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-12694901/Horoscopes-stars-week-SALLY-BROMPTON.html

    I don't know how much things like postcode lotteries get thought of as gambling (though they are).

    It must be hard to adequately sample the young and those religious groups that do not gamble.

    Demographic balancing of samples must be a real problem for them.
    If my experience in Morocco are any kind of indication, quite a few Muslims drink. A lot.

    IIRC the online lottery that FON uses is free, which can be used as an excuse to get round religious prohibitions. See “Vodka is made from potatoes, so isn’t ‘fruit of the grape’”
    Muslim *men* as a lady Muslim friend said with disgust.

    But yes, free to enter means it's not gambling. The early horseracing meetings in Dubai had no betting, obviously, but there were free competitions to pick all the winners. I do not know what they are like now.
    In my experience, Hindus and Sikhs are more teetotal than Muslims
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,259
    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Yes, decent bloke.
    Wants to leave the ECHR.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,569
    Good morning ladies and gentlemen.

    Missed out posting yesterday because of family commitments. Have I missed anything significant.

    In local news the Conservatives, fighting to regain a seat lost at the last elections have apparently urged voters to vote Conservative, otherwise their majority on the Council will be in peril.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,375
    New FON Survey " 98% of dead people wish they weren’t."
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,354

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course if Reform do win the Gorton and Denton by election with the Greens third it will be those slagging them off eating humble pie not FON.

    Have you read the quotes, FON say the poll isn't statistically relevant, they are themselves this poll is utter garbage.
    Yes but the "damage" is done - the poll is out there and we and others have been hyper ventiliating over it for two days and the leaflets for the by election write themselves on the back of this poll.

    Whatever its merits or otherwise, it has set the agenda and the tone at least for now.

    Look at how many by-elections have been "influenced" by late polls showing challengers closing on leaders and I remember Michael Portillo saying his defeat at Enfield Southgate in 1997 was caused by an Observer poll the weekend before showing the level of swing in Conservative seats like his was far greater (was it 15-17%?) than the UNS swing on poll headline numbers which was nearer 10%?

    Even in 2024, the swing in some seats was far greater than any national move - in Chippenham the LDs won on a swing of 21%, the national swing from Con to LD was more like 11-12%.
    Not sure the last two paragraphs are linked. Was there a local Chippenham poll?

    UNS was always an average of a range of swings.

    Which was cause and which was effect?
    And with boundary changes, the "swing" relies heavily on the notional result being right from the time before.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,358
    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Yes, decent bloke.
    The measure of decency isn't whether someone agrees with you politically or not.

    Just a tip.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,007
    Dopermean said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Given his well-evidenced opinion of Boris, I'd be surprised if he voted Conservative in 2019 either.
    His judgements were shown to be correct in all respects.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,948
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Yes, decent bloke.
    Wants to leave the ECHR.
    I didn't say I agree with him on everything; there's probably other stuff we disagree on, but that doesn't change my assessment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,948
    edited 11:21AM

    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Yes, decent bloke.
    The measure of decency isn't whether someone agrees with you politically or not.

    Just a tip.
    Indeed.

    Decent bloke @Richard_Tyndall voted for Brexit.

    Nigel Farage; not decent bloke.

    See how that works ?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,715
    Tres said:

    nico67 said:

    Oh dear what was Polanski thinking ?

    Legalising class A drugs ! Not sure this is a vote winner .

    Nor am I but is it a vote loser? When was the last time a celebrity was cancelled over drug use? Or politician? Cameron, Osborne, Boris, Gove?
    Going for the coked-up footie fan vote?
    the whole discussion around drugs by our politicians has been pathetic for decades ever since Labour sacked David Nutt for stating the bleeding obvious
    Quite. Taking an honest, realistic, harm based look at drugs is beyond most politicians.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,461
    "The is a bit of a mess for Find Out Now"

    Come on now
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,399

    Tres said:

    nico67 said:

    Oh dear what was Polanski thinking ?

    Legalising class A drugs ! Not sure this is a vote winner .

    Nor am I but is it a vote loser? When was the last time a celebrity was cancelled over drug use? Or politician? Cameron, Osborne, Boris, Gove?
    Going for the coked-up footie fan vote?
    the whole discussion around drugs by our politicians has been pathetic for decades ever since Labour sacked David Nutt for stating the bleeding obvious
    Quite. Taking an honest, realistic, harm based look at drugs is beyond most politicians.
    The same should apply to tobacco, instead of instituting a ban by stealth.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,358
    Sean_F said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    I think he voted for Blair’s government.
    Max Hastings is so wet in his book the Battle for the Falklands bemoans the fact a leaseback deal wasn't done to prevent the war in the first place, and even after argues its the only long-term solution.

    I put him in the Heathite Pym/Prior Tory patriarch category.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,715
    Taz said:

    Tres said:

    nico67 said:

    Oh dear what was Polanski thinking ?

    Legalising class A drugs ! Not sure this is a vote winner .

    Nor am I but is it a vote loser? When was the last time a celebrity was cancelled over drug use? Or politician? Cameron, Osborne, Boris, Gove?
    Going for the coked-up footie fan vote?
    the whole discussion around drugs by our politicians has been pathetic for decades ever since Labour sacked David Nutt for stating the bleeding obvious
    Quite. Taking an honest, realistic, harm based look at drugs is beyond most politicians.
    The same should apply to tobacco, instead of instituting a ban by stealth.
    Yes, just ban it right now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,683
    From twitter about the latest Andrew photo...

    "I was dining in a pizza establishment when a young lady with a severe gluten intolerance went into anaphylactic shock. When I rushed over to help she was in a pool of sweat, something I am unfamiliar with, causing me to slip and fall over, at which point my trousers fell down."
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,569
    Roger said:

    Dopermean said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Given his well-evidenced opinion of Boris, I'd be surprised if he voted Conservative in 2019 either.
    His judgements were shown to be correct in all respects.
    Apart from the fact that he initially gave Boris a job.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,358
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Crikey, just heard Max Hastings say he voted for Labour/Starmer at the election. I assumed Tory was carved on his heart.

    Max Hastings has always been a very wet Tory, and he was very angry at Brexit - and still is.

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
    Yes, decent bloke.
    The measure of decency isn't whether someone agrees with you politically or not.

    Just a tip.
    Indeed.

    Decent bloke @Richard_Tyndall voted for Brexit.

    Nigel Farage; not decent bloke.

    See how that works ?
    Yes, and it was the point I was making.

    Glad you recognise it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,433
    edited 11:40AM
    Who said there are no second acts in British public life?

    Perhaps something to consider fo Andrew Mountbatten-'Babs' Windsor?

    https://x.com/MichaelTakeMP/status/2017886224141193487?s=20
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,358
    Tres said:

    nico67 said:

    Oh dear what was Polanski thinking ?

    Legalising class A drugs ! Not sure this is a vote winner .

    Nor am I but is it a vote loser? When was the last time a celebrity was cancelled over drug use? Or politician? Cameron, Osborne, Boris, Gove?
    Going for the coked-up footie fan vote?
    the whole discussion around drugs by our politicians has been pathetic for decades ever since Labour sacked David Nutt for stating the bleeding obvious
    I don't like drugs, and have never done them, and nor would I want to be seen promoting them but, personally, my view has always been nuanced if people really want to take them.

    I think it's a really bad idea to put adulturated chemical substances in your body but I don't see it as my business.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,948
    Suddenly court expansion is OK with the GOP after all.

    Utah GOP Gov. Spencer Cox has signed a bill allowing him to add two new justices to the Utah Supreme Court, a move that could reshape future rulings on Utah’s congressional maps, including the court-mandated Democratic UT-01 under Prop 4.
    https://x.com/VoteHub/status/2017653309805384096
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