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The Gorton & Denton might become the most (in)famous by-election in history – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,908
edited 9:24AM in General
The Gorton & Denton might become the most (in)famous by-election in history – politicalbetting.com

The Gorton & Denton by-election might be the most momentous by-election since the Kinross and Western Perthshire by-election of 1963. By-elections seldom have the direct ability to see either the current or likely next Prime Minister being ousted at the ballot box but this one might.

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Comments

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,329
    I think Galloway might attract some of the same vote as a Reform UK or a Green candidate. Maybe he just splits the not-Labour vote, and Burnham wins on sub 30%?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,762
    edited 9:30AM
    Mieow.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084
    Third, like....?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,529
    edited 9:31AM
    Is he intending on campaigning via WFH over Zoom from Malaysia?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,917
    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,258
    If Burnham is allowed to stand he likely wins. If not Reform or the Greens could win though not Galloway as it is not a Muslim heavy seat
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,762
    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685

    Tres said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    nico67 said:

    It gets even worse . The victim was legally carrying a fire arm , in the tussle his gun was taken by a member of ICE who is seen walking away with it and then they executed him .

    The defensive shots line from the scum surrounding Trump is a total lie .

    The one thing that gives me optimism that democracy will continue after 2028 is that the administration seems to be determined to alienate everyone you might need for a successful coup d'etat. They've been doing everything they can to upset the military and now apparently they're trying to cancel the rights of gun owners.

    You can't lie to gun owners about something involving a gun, if there's something involving a gun in the media they'll spend the next week obsessing over possible every detail of it.
    I thought the elections would be held but compromised in 2026 and 2028. I think it is most likely they won't be held as the Insurrection Act will have been invoked for both events. They are not playing around this time.
    IIUC the Insurrection Act isn't a magic thing that cancels elections. It allows them to sent the military to places to support law enforcement. They still have the same legal constraints that police do and they still have to obey the courts. If you can tell the military to act illegally to stop people voting then that might be relevant, but that's where you need the support of the military.
    There are no legal constraints left. Mark Kelly will be prosecuted/ court martialed ( he has already had his pension cut and been recalled to service to invoke a court martial) for imploring military personnel to ignore ILLEGAL orders from the Commander in Chief.
    What's happening here is that the administration is constantly doing illegal thing, getting told to stop by the courts, and then, grudgingly, stopping. They keep bringing prosecutions against political enemies and the courts keep throwing them out.
    By stopping, do you mean - moving on to do something else illegal? I don't see much evidence of illegal activity reducing...
    Well, we can only speculate on whether they'd be doing the second illegal thing if the court hadn't prohibited them from doing the first. But on the question "are there still legal constraints on what they're doing" the answer is, "yes".
    I think administration is doing illegal thing, is getting away with it (e.g. ICE people who shot civilians aren't going to be prosecuted/investigated) and then they carry on doing it.

    There are court orders all over the place that are getting ignored. The fact that they choose to comply with some doesn't mean they are constrained.
    plus even in the highly likely event of an ice agent getting charged and convicted, orange or vance will just pardon them
    If they are charged and convicted of a state crime, a federal pardon will not work.

    The real issue is the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution

    Under that a federal officer is immune from state prosecution only if:

    1. The agent was acting within the scope of their federal authority, and
    2. The agent’s actions were necessary and proper to carry out their federal duties.

    Which is why the gaslighting about the ICE agent’s killings being necessary started immediately after each one.

    Add in MAGA control of the federal courts (some of them anyway - anything will be appealed to the Supreme Court)
    IIRC courts have basically said that if a federal officer did not realise they were violating constitutional rights then that's sufficient defence to them as a person, essentially weaponising that ignorance of the law is an excuse.

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685
    HYUFD said:

    If Burnham is allowed to stand he likely wins. If not Reform or the Greens could win though not Galloway as it is not a Muslim heavy seat

    Always provides some entertaining moments though.

    I still have no idea how WPB were organised enough to put up 150 candidates at the GE. Your Party have broken out into factional slates just to select their leadership committee.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,960
    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 4,029

    I think Galloway might attract some of the same vote as a Reform UK or a Green candidate. Maybe he just splits the not-Labour vote, and Burnham wins on sub 30%?

    Yep, Gorton has a large ethnic minority vote ,and Levenshulme is full of students - Greens and a nut job independent will carve up the lefty left/Gaza motivated votes, Burnham could probably carry enough normal people and the Stop Reformers.

    He's got enough credibility in WWC places like Denton, whereas some 27 year old SPAD imposed on the CLP would get trounced.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,960
    Time to dump ChatGPT!

    The latest model of ChatGPT has begun to cite Elon Musk’s Grokipedia as a source on a wide range of queries, including on Iranian conglomerates and Holocaust deniers, raising concerns about misinformation on the platform.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084
    Today’s Rawnsley as we wait for today’s dose of heavy rain to arrive:

    Starmer loyalists claim to have sufficient control over the party’s decision-making processes to strangle any Burnham challenge at birth by simply vetoing him as a candidate for parliament… but vetoing him is freighted with considerable danger for the prime minister.

    If Labour MPs and members make enough noisy fuss about it, there’s a chance the resolve of Number 10 will crumble, as it has before on other issues. The peril facing Sir Keir is that he looks paranoid about one of his party’s more successful figures and frit of a leadership challenge. And a challenge may happen with or without the presence of Mr Burnham in parliament because, as you may have noticed, others – including some who sit in the cabinet – are also interested in taking the prime minister’s job.

    Though there was a chunky Labour majority at the 2024 general election, there’s really no such thing as a safe Labour seat these days. Mr Burnham’s overarching claim is that he has the personality and the ideas to turn things around for his party. If he wants to start proving that concept, the best place to begin is by testing it at the ballot box. Power is rarely given; it has to be pursued. The whirligig of opportunity only comes round every so often. For sure, this is a gamble, but it is one he kind of had to take.



  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,529
    edited 9:42AM
    Scott_xP said:

    Time to dump ChatGPT!

    The latest model of ChatGPT has begun to cite Elon Musk’s Grokipedia as a source on a wide range of queries, including on Iranian conglomerates and Holocaust deniers, raising concerns about misinformation on the platform.

    ChatGPT is so 2024, Gemini was 2025, now its all about the Clawdbot using Claude Max Opus....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,917

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,762
    edited 9:50AM
    Taz said:

    ....

    Taz said:

    boulay said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    This is at least more honest than a large number of news organisations.
    The BBC's US editor has yet to be as honest.

    Reuters North America editor Sally Buzbee on covering Trump's return: 'I don't think in those first few days we understood what an organized agenda they had.'
    https://x.com/Reuters/status/2015122486384341196

    Not entirely unreasonable, as Trump's first term was extremely chaotic and unfocused. I did have dinner with one of the principal architects of Project 2025 though and he scared the bejesus out of me. To be honest nothing Trump has done has surprised me. The goal of these people is total power, they carry a deep loathing for the coastal elites that comes from a place of intellectual insecurity and they want to destroy liberal America for ever. They won't stop until somebody stops them.
    It ought to have been pretty obvious to any journalist doing their work that Trump's staff were a very different crew to the first time around.

    And it's not as though his opponent hadn't described that agenda in some detail.

    But I suppose it's fair to say the speed and extent of what they've done in a year might be a surprise - and Reuters deserve credit for acknowledging it out loud.

    Meanwhile Smith and Webb cheerfully report it almost like business as usual.
    Smith is bad enough but Webb is even worse. Of course Sopel who got Trump 45's back up on more than one occasion was put out to pasture at LBC.
    Didn’t Sopel leave the Beeb so he could do his podcast and make lots of money which he couldn’t while employed at the BBC?
    Yes. After he came back from the USA. Sopel, Maitlis and Goodall left the Beeb to set up their tedious podcast which speaks to like minded people.
    The News Agents on LBC. Both Maitlis and Goodall left the BBC after run ins with Gibb and Davie.

    It would seem people who agree with Gibb like Neil are allowed to ride two horses whilst those who don't, can't.

    Have you seen the News Agents? It's very good. Emily has just returned from the US and has been critical of Starmer's Trump normalisation.
    News Agents is a Global product, like LBC.

    I’ve caught bits of it. I find them a bit smug. I’m not really interested in anything, wherever it sits on the political spectrum, just presenting one view. A centrist version of GB News. Which I have only ever see three times. Twice to see what the production standards were like and once to watch a financial commentator talking about bonds.
    They are critical of Trump (easy pickings) but also frustrated by Dem inertia. Likewise withering annoyance over Starmer capitulation to Trump. They are not left wing versions of Hannity, Watters and Bartiromo.

    I would imagine both Maitlis and Sopel are one nation Tories whist Goodall who has been a Labour Party card holder is very critical of the Government. The problem we have now is one nation Tories are considered left wing firebrands.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,760
    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685
    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That does resonate. Without wanting to return to the wild west there may be too many road blocks and powerful arms length bodies, too many things those ostensibly running things are not trusted to control and whom it is impractical or impossible to ignore. Democratic mandates don't erase legal obstacles automatically, but do there need to be so many?

    You even see this at local government level. Councillors are less powerful and even more financially constrained, subject to whim of central government, but some councillors come into the job thinking it's like a US state, that outside clearly defined areas they are somehow sovereign.

    This is most obvious in planning where they can get very upset and even abusive to staff at being recommended to approve things against the wishes of residents, as they are outraged they're supposed to follow rules set by government.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Burnham is allowed to stand he likely wins. If not Reform or the Greens could win though not Galloway as it is not a Muslim heavy seat

    Always provides some entertaining moments though.

    I still have no idea how WPB were organised enough to put up 150 candidates at the GE. Your Party have broken out into factional slates just to select their leadership committee.
    My guess would be that WPB doesn't have much by way of centralised organisation; simply someone in charge of allowing candidates to use the name, and when someone popped up in a seat with left-wing credentials who wanted to stand under the WPB banner, they were essentially granted use of the party's name and left alone to get on with it.

    Whereas the various factions involved with YP have the centralising mentality that's much more common on the left, and have immediately launched into pitched battles to take control of the central apparatus of the new party, before it's even been created.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,529
    edited 9:49AM
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is very anti Labour these days and shows a bit of conservative with a small c ankle. Big mates with the likes of Jimmy Carr, who is qutie similar. He definitely didn't vote Labour when Jezza was about,. was very vocally against him, and doesn't seem to like Starmer very much.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,762
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is articulate, and Liam who isn't bedded Patsy Kensit. So hats off to both of them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685
    Scott_xP said:

    Time to dump ChatGPT!

    The latest model of ChatGPT has begun to cite Elon Musk’s Grokipedia as a source on a wide range of queries, including on Iranian conglomerates and Holocaust deniers, raising concerns about misinformation on the platform.

    Isn't the main problem with grokipedia its opacity, whereas wikipedia, whilst flawed, is open in how it's info is compiled?

    I've not used grok so that's just something i'd read
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,800

    A line removed from the header on taste and decency grounds.

    'Hoping George Galloway can win a by-election to stop me losing several hundred pounds is like the time I had sex in an elevator with my friend's girlfriend, wrong on so many levels.'

    Lift.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,042
    John McTernan closing remarks on the Trevor Phillips programme this morning

    'Keir Starmer would make a great Foreign Secretary in an Andy Burnham government'

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,367
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
    Freedman's book "Failed state: Why nothing works and how we fix it", which I've recommended here before, is well worth a read, despite being much stronger on why nothing works than on how we fix it.

    The above extract is from a paywalled article, so it would be wrong to paste much more of it, but Freedman goes on to argue that each government tries to tackle the problem by slapping new bodies or levers on top of what's already there, rather than changing anything fundamental. And that state capacity at every level below Westminster is so denuded that many of the things Westminster tries to achieve at the centre simply cannot be delivered out in the localities. The direction of his solutions - toward increasing local capacity and devolving the power to tackle problems - is one that I agree with, but as he observes, national politicians are always schizophrenic towards decentralisation, understanding it conceptually, but ultimately unwilling to cede their own power - even though it's often illusory. As he says, "Any serious attempt to rewire the state needs to focus on the disconnects between power and capacity rather than power per se. "
    All parties state they believe in decentralising power and empowering communities, but rarely do. Local 'Devolution' is rarely any such thing, usually being creating a new body taking power from below not above, or just a new process dependent on Whitehall ultimately controlling things, often pitting local areas against each other.

    Centralisation is not inherently bad, but it is treated as though it is, so instead we get dissonance from centralising and calling it something else.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,856

    A line removed from the header on taste and decency grounds.

    'Hoping George Galloway can win a by-election to stop me losing several hundred pounds is like the time I had sex in an elevator with my friend's girlfriend, wrong on so many levels.'

    Lift.
    Elevator or this song doesn't work.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Yrhv33Zb8&list=RDh3Yrhv33Zb8&start_radio=1
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,508
    edited 10:05AM
    Good morning one and all. Grey and gloomy outside here; there's some entertainment on the horizon, locally, though as we have a Council bye-election to which to look forward. It's an Independent seat and the retiring councillor is supporting his preferred successor; they were out canvassing together yesterday.
    We've also apparently a Labour nominee, but AToW, no mention of a Conservative, although in the recent past it was a Conservative seat. A LibDem is, I think, unlikely.
    The Council is Conservative controlled and the Opposition is a Green/Independent alliance.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,853
    edited 10:13AM
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That does resonate. Without wanting to return to the wild west there may be too many road blocks and powerful arms length bodies, too many things those ostensibly running things are not trusted to control and whom it is impractical or impossible to ignore. Democratic mandates don't erase legal obstacles automatically, but do there need to be so many?

    You even see this at local government level. Councillors are less powerful and even more financially constrained, subject to whim of central government, but some councillors come into the job thinking it's like a US state, that outside clearly defined areas they are somehow sovereign.

    This is most obvious in planning where they can get very upset and even abusive to staff at being recommended to approve things against the wishes of residents, as they are outraged they're supposed to follow rules set by government.
    Mrs Thatcher also made a big power grab for Number 10 at the expense of Cabinet government, followed by President Blair's sofa government and Brown's all-powerful Treasury. Look at PMQs and Jim Callaghan and his predecessors answered only on broad government policy, referring detailed questions to the relevant departments.

    Now the common complaint is that Number 10 is still not powerful enough – see for instance Dominic Cummings' laments. Our political masters watched The West Wing and want to be not President Bartlet but Leo, his omniscient Chief of Staff.

    Jeremy Hunt's two books are worth a read as he is more reflective than most politicians who seek mainly to justify themselves. Contrast Hunt discovering that another clinical directive to hospitals added to the dozens already in place, with David Cameron's detailed explanation of why he chose to wear black socks on Monday the 19th and why this was the better choice over dark grey.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084
    edited 10:13AM

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,800
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
    Freedman's book "Failed state: Why nothing works and how we fix it", which I've recommended here before, is well worth a read, despite being much stronger on why nothing works than on how we fix it.

    The above extract is from a paywalled article, so it would be wrong to paste much more of it, but Freedman goes on to argue that each government tries to tackle the problem by slapping new bodies or levers on top of what's already there, rather than changing anything fundamental. And that state capacity at every level below Westminster is so denuded that many of the things Westminster tries to achieve at the centre simply cannot be delivered out in the localities. The direction of his solutions - toward increasing local capacity and devolving the power to tackle problems - is one that I agree with, but as he observes, national politicians are always schizophrenic towards decentralisation, understanding it conceptually, but ultimately unwilling to cede their own power - even though it's often illusory. As he says, "Any serious attempt to rewire the state needs to focus on the disconnects between power and capacity rather than power per se. "
    But wouldn't that merely add another layer of power, that would attract its own bureacracy, and so the problem worsens.

    Successive laws, mainly but not exclusively added as part of the Blair project have made Britain ungovernable. Any solution must begin with the repeal of those laws, to get us back to square one. These include the Constitutional Reform Act, the Equality Act, The Human Rights Act and several more.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,856
    edited 10:14AM

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That does resonate. Without wanting to return to the wild west there may be too many road blocks and powerful arms length bodies, too many things those ostensibly running things are not trusted to control and whom it is impractical or impossible to ignore. Democratic mandates don't erase legal obstacles automatically, but do there need to be so many?

    You even see this at local government level. Councillors are less powerful and even more financially constrained, subject to whim of central government, but some councillors come into the job thinking it's like a US state, that outside clearly defined areas they are somehow sovereign.

    This is most obvious in planning where they can get very upset and even abusive to staff at being recommended to approve things against the wishes of residents, as they are outraged they're supposed to follow rules set by government.
    Mrs Thatcher also made a big power grab for Number 10 at the expense of Cabinet government, followed by President Blair's sofa government and Brown's all-powerful Treasury. Since then the common complaint is that Number 10 is not powerful enough – see for instance Dominic Cummings' laments. Our political masters watched The West Wing and want to be not President Bartlet but Leo, his omniscient Chief of Staff.

    Jeremy Hunt's two books are worth a read as he is more reflective than most politicians who seek mainly to justify themselves. Contrast Hunt discovering that another clinical directive to hospitals added to the dozens already in place, with David Cameron's detailed explanation of why he chose to wear black socks on Monday the 19th and why this was the better choice over dark grey.
    That's not true, Thatcher regularly let the cabinet overrule/vote against her, most famously on the AIDS/HIV crisis, she wanted it to be a moral campaign, the likes of Norman Fowler wanted it to be a practical campaign.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,197
    edited 10:15AM
    On Topic.

    No need to panic TSE

    Methinks you have no idea how entrenched and pathetic the controlling clique are.

    They would rather hand the keys to Farage than let go of the keys of the stinking carcus of the Party formerly known as Labour to anyone else.

    In fairness to SKS he is merely a puppet soon to be discarded anyway
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,917

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is very anti Labour these days and shows a bit of conservative with a small c ankle. Big mates with the likes of Jimmy Carr, who is qutie similar. He definitely didn't vote Labour when Jezza was about,. was very vocally against him, and doesn't seem to like Starmer very much.
    Like most of us
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084

    Good morning one and all. Grey and gloomy outside here; there's some entertainment on the horizon, locally, though as we have a Council bye-election to which to look forward. It's an Independent seat and the retiring councillor is supporting his preferred successor; they were out canvassing together yesterday.
    We've also apparently a Labour nominee, but AToW, no mention of a Conservative, although in the recent past it was a Conservative seat. A LibDem is, I think, unlikely.
    The Council is Conservative controlled and the Opposition is a Green/Independent alliance.

    Vote Grind!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,853

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is very anti Labour these days and shows a bit of conservative with a small c ankle. Big mates with the likes of Jimmy Carr, who is qutie similar. He definitely didn't vote Labour when Jezza was about,. was very vocally against him, and doesn't seem to like Starmer very much.
    Jimmy Carr, comedian, lifestyle guru and lately political pundit. To be fair, he does offer some pithy insight, for instance woke is American Marxism, and the focus on equality of status rather than class or money. Cynics might say it is Joe Rogan in one minute rather than two hours but...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,329

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That does resonate. Without wanting to return to the wild west there may be too many road blocks and powerful arms length bodies, too many things those ostensibly running things are not trusted to control and whom it is impractical or impossible to ignore. Democratic mandates don't erase legal obstacles automatically, but do there need to be so many?

    You even see this at local government level. Councillors are less powerful and even more financially constrained, subject to whim of central government, but some councillors come into the job thinking it's like a US state, that outside clearly defined areas they are somehow sovereign.

    This is most obvious in planning where they can get very upset and even abusive to staff at being recommended to approve things against the wishes of residents, as they are outraged they're supposed to follow rules set by government.
    Mrs Thatcher also made a big power grab for Number 10 at the expense of Cabinet government, followed by President Blair's sofa government and Brown's all-powerful Treasury. Look at PMQs and Jim Callaghan and his predecessors answered only on broad government policy, referring detailed questions to the relevant departments.

    Now the common complaint is that Number 10 is still not powerful enough – see for instance Dominic Cummings' laments. Our political masters watched The West Wing and want to be not President Bartlet but Leo, his omniscient Chief of Staff.

    Jeremy Hunt's two books are worth a read as he is more reflective than most politicians who seek mainly to justify themselves. Contrast Hunt discovering that another clinical directive to hospitals added to the dozens already in place, with David Cameron's detailed explanation of why he chose to wear black socks on Monday the 19th and why this was the better choice over dark grey.
    What you need to read is "A Government That Worked Better And Cost Less?" by Christopher Hood and Ruth Dixon. There's a review at https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2015/10/14/book-review-a-government-that-worked-better-and-cost-less-evaluating-three-decades-of-reform-and-change-in-uk-central-government-by-christopher-hood-and-ruth-dixon/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
    Freedman's book "Failed state: Why nothing works and how we fix it", which I've recommended here before, is well worth a read, despite being much stronger on why nothing works than on how we fix it.

    The above extract is from a paywalled article, so it would be wrong to paste much more of it, but Freedman goes on to argue that each government tries to tackle the problem by slapping new bodies or levers on top of what's already there, rather than changing anything fundamental. And that state capacity at every level below Westminster is so denuded that many of the things Westminster tries to achieve at the centre simply cannot be delivered out in the localities. The direction of his solutions - toward increasing local capacity and devolving the power to tackle problems - is one that I agree with, but as he observes, national politicians are always schizophrenic towards decentralisation, understanding it conceptually, but ultimately unwilling to cede their own power - even though it's often illusory. As he says, "Any serious attempt to rewire the state needs to focus on the disconnects between power and capacity rather than power per se. "
    But wouldn't that merely add another layer of power, that would attract its own bureacracy, and so the problem worsens.

    Successive laws, mainly but not exclusively added as part of the Blair project have made Britain ungovernable. Any solution must begin with the repeal of those laws, to get us back to square one. These include the Constitutional Reform Act, the Equality Act, The Human Rights Act and several more.
    Not that I agree with the conclusion in that situation, but I do recall Antonin Scalia talking about the seeming difficulty of amending or striking down something like the Voting Rights Act, since of course it sounds wonderful* as who would be against voting rights. Similarly whilst I am not persuaded by arguments to repeal the Human Rights Act, people do sometimes have a tendency to act as though we had, and would have, no rights without it.

    *if he were still around I'm sure he'd have no trouble, given the current makeup of the court.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,488
    It feels the right time to air this one again:

    A Starmerite, a Brownite, a Corbynite and a Blairite walk into a pub. And the Landlord says 'Evening Andy'.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,763
    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    So basically thousands of extra box tickers costing a fortune and explaining why we get nowhere, waste money and are almost bankrupt.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,760
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That does resonate. Without wanting to return to the wild west there may be too many road blocks and powerful arms length bodies, too many things those ostensibly running things are not trusted to control and whom it is impractical or impossible to ignore. Democratic mandates don't erase legal obstacles automatically, but do there need to be so many?

    You even see this at local government level. Councillors are less powerful and even more financially constrained, subject to whim of central government, but some councillors come into the job thinking it's like a US state, that outside clearly defined areas they are somehow sovereign.

    This is most obvious in planning where they can get very upset and even abusive to staff at being recommended to approve things against the wishes of residents, as they are outraged they're supposed to follow rules set by government.
    There's a theory that protocol (aka the "deep state") exists to mediate between central and local governance.

    When the latter gets eviscerated, it takes on a less productive role.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,329

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
    Freedman's book "Failed state: Why nothing works and how we fix it", which I've recommended here before, is well worth a read, despite being much stronger on why nothing works than on how we fix it.

    The above extract is from a paywalled article, so it would be wrong to paste much more of it, but Freedman goes on to argue that each government tries to tackle the problem by slapping new bodies or levers on top of what's already there, rather than changing anything fundamental. And that state capacity at every level below Westminster is so denuded that many of the things Westminster tries to achieve at the centre simply cannot be delivered out in the localities. The direction of his solutions - toward increasing local capacity and devolving the power to tackle problems - is one that I agree with, but as he observes, national politicians are always schizophrenic towards decentralisation, understanding it conceptually, but ultimately unwilling to cede their own power - even though it's often illusory. As he says, "Any serious attempt to rewire the state needs to focus on the disconnects between power and capacity rather than power per se. "
    But wouldn't that merely add another layer of power, that would attract its own bureacracy, and so the problem worsens.

    Successive laws, mainly but not exclusively added as part of the Blair project have made Britain ungovernable. Any solution must begin with the repeal of those laws, to get us back to square one. These include the Constitutional Reform Act, the Equality Act, The Human Rights Act and several more.
    This is a popular view on the fringes of the populist right, e.g. Rupert Lowe goes on about this. (However, as Lowe is stupid and loves Trump, you do have to wonder whether anything he says is of value.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685

    It feels the right time to air this one again:

    A Starmerite, a Brownite, a Corbynite and a Blairite walk into a pub. And the Landlord says 'Evening Andy'.

    Burnhamism is a broad philosophy, unifying all strands of Labour thought.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,472

    I think Galloway might attract some of the same vote as a Reform UK or a Green candidate. Maybe he just splits the not-Labour vote, and Burnham wins on sub 30%?

    Yep, Gorton has a large ethnic minority vote ,and Levenshulme is full of students - Greens and a nut job independent will carve up the lefty left/Gaza motivated votes, Burnham could probably carry enough normal people and the Stop Reformers.

    He's got enough credibility in WWC places like Denton, whereas some 27 year old SPAD imposed on the CLP would get trounced.
    I believe that at the last mayoral election he carried every polling district in GM.
    Although Galloway has a remarkable record I really don't think he'll get close if he runs against Burnham.
    There is a protest vote, of course, but I suspect people also want a return to competent normalcy. Which, incidentally, is why I think Ruth Davidson and Andy Street may be on to something with their recent announcement.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,212

    A line removed from the header on taste and decency grounds.

    'Hoping George Galloway can win a by-election to stop me losing several hundred pounds is like the time I had sex in an elevator with my friend's girlfriend, wrong on so many levels.'

    Lift.
    What, Onto his shoulders !!!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,800
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
    Freedman's book "Failed state: Why nothing works and how we fix it", which I've recommended here before, is well worth a read, despite being much stronger on why nothing works than on how we fix it.

    The above extract is from a paywalled article, so it would be wrong to paste much more of it, but Freedman goes on to argue that each government tries to tackle the problem by slapping new bodies or levers on top of what's already there, rather than changing anything fundamental. And that state capacity at every level below Westminster is so denuded that many of the things Westminster tries to achieve at the centre simply cannot be delivered out in the localities. The direction of his solutions - toward increasing local capacity and devolving the power to tackle problems - is one that I agree with, but as he observes, national politicians are always schizophrenic towards decentralisation, understanding it conceptually, but ultimately unwilling to cede their own power - even though it's often illusory. As he says, "Any serious attempt to rewire the state needs to focus on the disconnects between power and capacity rather than power per se. "
    But wouldn't that merely add another layer of power, that would attract its own bureacracy, and so the problem worsens.

    Successive laws, mainly but not exclusively added as part of the Blair project have made Britain ungovernable. Any solution must begin with the repeal of those laws, to get us back to square one. These include the Constitutional Reform Act, the Equality Act, The Human Rights Act and several more.
    Not that I agree with the conclusion in that situation, but I do recall Antonin Scalia talking about the seeming difficulty of amending or striking down something like the Voting Rights Act, since of course it sounds wonderful* as who would be against voting rights. Similarly whilst I am not persuaded by arguments to repeal the Human Rights Act, people do sometimes have a tendency to act as though we had, and would have, no rights without it.

    *if he were still around I'm sure he'd have no trouble, given the current makeup of the court.
    It is not just that we would 'still have rights' if the HRA were abolished, British liberties are of a totally different order than European rights. Under British common law, anything not expressly prohibited is allowed - the law leaves you alone. Under European systems, everything is prohibited unless expressly permitted. They are two very different systems, and grafting one on to the other has been disastrous.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,515
    malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    So basically thousands of extra box tickers costing a fortune and explaining why we get nowhere, waste money and are almost bankrupt.
    Thousands of box tickers caring only about the process, and not the outcome.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,429
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That does resonate. Without wanting to return to the wild west there may be too many road blocks and powerful arms length bodies, too many things those ostensibly running things are not trusted to control and whom it is impractical or impossible to ignore. Democratic mandates don't erase legal obstacles automatically, but do there need to be so many?

    You even see this at local government level. Councillors are less powerful and even more financially constrained, subject to whim of central government, but some councillors come into the job thinking it's like a US state, that outside clearly defined areas they are somehow sovereign.

    This is most obvious in planning where they can get very upset and even abusive to staff at being recommended to approve things against the wishes of residents, as they are outraged they're supposed to follow rules set by government.
    Mrs Thatcher also made a big power grab for Number 10 at the expense of Cabinet government, followed by President Blair's sofa government and Brown's all-powerful Treasury. Look at PMQs and Jim Callaghan and his predecessors answered only on broad government policy, referring detailed questions to the relevant departments.

    Now the common complaint is that Number 10 is still not powerful enough – see for instance Dominic Cummings' laments. Our political masters watched The West Wing and want to be not President Bartlet but Leo, his omniscient Chief of Staff.

    Jeremy Hunt's two books are worth a read as he is more reflective than most politicians who seek mainly to justify themselves. Contrast Hunt discovering that another clinical directive to hospitals added to the dozens already in place, with David Cameron's detailed explanation of why he chose to wear black socks on Monday the 19th and why this was the better choice over dark grey.
    What you need to read is "A Government That Worked Better And Cost Less?" by Christopher Hood and Ruth Dixon. There's a review at https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2015/10/14/book-review-a-government-that-worked-better-and-cost-less-evaluating-three-decades-of-reform-and-change-in-uk-central-government-by-christopher-hood-and-ruth-dixon/
    When I wrote my PhD on UK urban planning (1997) all the literature was talking about 'de-regulation' under Mrs T. When I looked at the actual data it showed a huge increase in the regulatory burden. Since a minority of academics favour de-regulation few go looking for evidence of regulatory growth. I suspect this replicates across multiple policy areas and it skews public understanding of what is going on.
    https://x.com/Kaleidicworld/status/2015058240418300075
    Reminds me a bit of of quantum mechanics and the duality of light. Look for it acting as a wave and you'll see that. Look for it acting as a particle and you'll see that. .

    The preconceptions of an inquiry can shut out lots of relevant information, or, in extremis, lead to bastardisation of reality in favour of prejudice, (such as pretending Cleopatra VII was black instead of looking at the actually black Kushite dynasty from around 750 to 650 BC).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That does resonate. Without wanting to return to the wild west there may be too many road blocks and powerful arms length bodies, too many things those ostensibly running things are not trusted to control and whom it is impractical or impossible to ignore. Democratic mandates don't erase legal obstacles automatically, but do there need to be so many?

    You even see this at local government level. Councillors are less powerful and even more financially constrained, subject to whim of central government, but some councillors come into the job thinking it's like a US state, that outside clearly defined areas they are somehow sovereign.

    This is most obvious in planning where they can get very upset and even abusive to staff at being recommended to approve things against the wishes of residents, as they are outraged they're supposed to follow rules set by government.
    Mrs Thatcher also made a big power grab for Number 10 at the expense of Cabinet government, followed by President Blair's sofa government and Brown's all-powerful Treasury. Since then the common complaint is that Number 10 is not powerful enough – see for instance Dominic Cummings' laments. Our political masters watched The West Wing and want to be not President Bartlet but Leo, his omniscient Chief of Staff.

    Jeremy Hunt's two books are worth a read as he is more reflective than most politicians who seek mainly to justify themselves. Contrast Hunt discovering that another clinical directive to hospitals added to the dozens already in place, with David Cameron's detailed explanation of why he chose to wear black socks on Monday the 19th and why this was the better choice over dark grey.
    That's not true, Thatcher regularly let the cabinet overrule/vote against her, most famously on the AIDS/HIV crisis, she wanted it to be a moral campaign, the likes of Norman Fowler wanted it to be a practical campaign.
    It's partly true. Thatcher did, as you say, continue to act as PM in charge of a cabinet government - the real centralisation of power from cabinet to PM happened under Blair. But she was responsible for neutering Britain's long tradition of autonomous, influential local government, starving it of funding and abolishing or re-organising the bits of it she didn't like, and she also increased the size of the state, the civil service and the quangocracy. Blair, to his discredit, continued or failed to reverse most of these trends, and after Labour we were straight into austerity with local government taking a much bigger hit than central.

    Money, or lack of it, is as much the problem as power. Central government is often faced with choices between spending money, or cutting spending, itself, or passing the funding or cuts down to local government and, no surprise, when there is money available the centre usually prefers to spend it itself (or at least devise ways to control what localities spend it on, by ring-fenced funding and bidding competitions accompanied by a stack of legal obligations, measurements, league tables and targetry) and when there are cuts they prefer to pass the difficult decisions, and accompanying negative publicity, down to local councils. Simultaneously the centre acts to prevent local councils from increasing their own funding base (with the notable exception of parishes, which are free to raise as much tax as they like), by retaining national control of the tax base and restricting councils from increasing or expanding it. A good recent example was the talk of having a tourist tax, which - unlike in any other country - was suggested as a new source of government funding, rather than going to the local authority in the area where the tourist actually is.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,800

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
    Freedman's book "Failed state: Why nothing works and how we fix it", which I've recommended here before, is well worth a read, despite being much stronger on why nothing works than on how we fix it.

    The above extract is from a paywalled article, so it would be wrong to paste much more of it, but Freedman goes on to argue that each government tries to tackle the problem by slapping new bodies or levers on top of what's already there, rather than changing anything fundamental. And that state capacity at every level below Westminster is so denuded that many of the things Westminster tries to achieve at the centre simply cannot be delivered out in the localities. The direction of his solutions - toward increasing local capacity and devolving the power to tackle problems - is one that I agree with, but as he observes, national politicians are always schizophrenic towards decentralisation, understanding it conceptually, but ultimately unwilling to cede their own power - even though it's often illusory. As he says, "Any serious attempt to rewire the state needs to focus on the disconnects between power and capacity rather than power per se. "
    But wouldn't that merely add another layer of power, that would attract its own bureacracy, and so the problem worsens.

    Successive laws, mainly but not exclusively added as part of the Blair project have made Britain ungovernable. Any solution must begin with the repeal of those laws, to get us back to square one. These include the Constitutional Reform Act, the Equality Act, The Human Rights Act and several more.
    This is a popular view on the fringes of the populist right, e.g. Rupert Lowe goes on about this. (However, as Lowe is stupid and loves Trump, you do have to wonder whether anything he says is of value.)
    Speaking of stupid, I wonder what made you think this piece of crap was an intelligent contribution to the discussion?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,508
    edited 10:28AM

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
    Freedman's book "Failed state: Why nothing works and how we fix it", which I've recommended here before, is well worth a read, despite being much stronger on why nothing works than on how we fix it.

    The above extract is from a paywalled article, so it would be wrong to paste much more of it, but Freedman goes on to argue that each government tries to tackle the problem by slapping new bodies or levers on top of what's already there, rather than changing anything fundamental. And that state capacity at every level below Westminster is so denuded that many of the things Westminster tries to achieve at the centre simply cannot be delivered out in the localities. The direction of his solutions - toward increasing local capacity and devolving the power to tackle problems - is one that I agree with, but as he observes, national politicians are always schizophrenic towards decentralisation, understanding it conceptually, but ultimately unwilling to cede their own power - even though it's often illusory. As he says, "Any serious attempt to rewire the state needs to focus on the disconnects between power and capacity rather than power per se. "
    But wouldn't that merely add another layer of power, that would attract its own bureacracy, and so the problem worsens.

    Successive laws, mainly but not exclusively added as part of the Blair project have made Britain ungovernable. Any solution must begin with the repeal of those laws, to get us back to square one. These include the Constitutional Reform Act, the Equality Act, The Human Rights Act and several more.
    This is a popular view on the fringes of the populist right, e.g. Rupert Lowe goes on about this. (However, as Lowe is stupid and loves Trump, you do have to wonder whether anything he says is of value.)
    'My opponent is as honourable as myself, and may, on occasion, be right!'
    is something which everyone in politics should bear in mind.
    Mind, I don't quite know what you do when your opponent is clearly not a person of honour!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,515

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is very anti Labour these days and shows a bit of conservative with a small c ankle. Big mates with the likes of Jimmy Carr, who is qutie similar. He definitely didn't vote Labour when Jezza was about,. was very vocally against him, and doesn't seem to like Starmer very much.
    Jimmy Carr, comedian, lifestyle guru and lately political pundit. To be fair, he does offer some pithy insight, for instance woke is American Marxism, and the focus on equality of status rather than class or money. Cynics might say it is Joe Rogan in one minute rather than two hours but...
    His recent appearance on Triggernometry podcast is worth watching.

    Comedians are generally very good at picking up societal changes well before anyone else, because they go to every town in the country and know what makes people laugh, and what doesn’t, at any given moment.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWDCZIvLrS4

    They’re letting him into the sandpit next month, in the middle of Ramadan of all times. Two shows sold out, 4,000 tickets.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,763
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Burnham is allowed to stand he likely wins. If not Reform or the Greens could win though not Galloway as it is not a Muslim heavy seat

    Always provides some entertaining moments though.

    I still have no idea how WPB were organised enough to put up 150 candidates at the GE. Your Party have broken out into factional slates just to select their leadership committee.
    My guess would be that WPB doesn't have much by way of centralised organisation; simply someone in charge of allowing candidates to use the name, and when someone popped up in a seat with left-wing credentials who wanted to stand under the WPB banner, they were essentially granted use of the party's name and left alone to get on with it.

    Whereas the various factions involved with YP have the centralising mentality that's much more common on the left, and have immediately launched into pitched battles to take control of the central apparatus of the new party, before it's even been created.
    Club for looneys
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,639
    My view is that Galloway standing is good news for Labour because it splits the grumpy lefty vote. Without Galloway, Greens are favourite, but Galloway will split off a lot more of the Green vote than the Lab vote. It may conceivably be good news for Reform.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685
    malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Burnham is allowed to stand he likely wins. If not Reform or the Greens could win though not Galloway as it is not a Muslim heavy seat

    Always provides some entertaining moments though.

    I still have no idea how WPB were organised enough to put up 150 candidates at the GE. Your Party have broken out into factional slates just to select their leadership committee.
    My guess would be that WPB doesn't have much by way of centralised organisation; simply someone in charge of allowing candidates to use the name, and when someone popped up in a seat with left-wing credentials who wanted to stand under the WPB banner, they were essentially granted use of the party's name and left alone to get on with it.

    Whereas the various factions involved with YP have the centralising mentality that's much more common on the left, and have immediately launched into pitched battles to take control of the central apparatus of the new party, before it's even been created.
    Club for looneys
    PB?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,042
    It appears the King sent a private note to Trump over his comments on Afghanistan and it prompted Trumps U turn
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,329
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That does resonate. Without wanting to return to the wild west there may be too many road blocks and powerful arms length bodies, too many things those ostensibly running things are not trusted to control and whom it is impractical or impossible to ignore. Democratic mandates don't erase legal obstacles automatically, but do there need to be so many?

    You even see this at local government level. Councillors are less powerful and even more financially constrained, subject to whim of central government, but some councillors come into the job thinking it's like a US state, that outside clearly defined areas they are somehow sovereign.

    This is most obvious in planning where they can get very upset and even abusive to staff at being recommended to approve things against the wishes of residents, as they are outraged they're supposed to follow rules set by government.
    Mrs Thatcher also made a big power grab for Number 10 at the expense of Cabinet government, followed by President Blair's sofa government and Brown's all-powerful Treasury. Look at PMQs and Jim Callaghan and his predecessors answered only on broad government policy, referring detailed questions to the relevant departments.

    Now the common complaint is that Number 10 is still not powerful enough – see for instance Dominic Cummings' laments. Our political masters watched The West Wing and want to be not President Bartlet but Leo, his omniscient Chief of Staff.

    Jeremy Hunt's two books are worth a read as he is more reflective than most politicians who seek mainly to justify themselves. Contrast Hunt discovering that another clinical directive to hospitals added to the dozens already in place, with David Cameron's detailed explanation of why he chose to wear black socks on Monday the 19th and why this was the better choice over dark grey.
    What you need to read is "A Government That Worked Better And Cost Less?" by Christopher Hood and Ruth Dixon. There's a review at https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2015/10/14/book-review-a-government-that-worked-better-and-cost-less-evaluating-three-decades-of-reform-and-change-in-uk-central-government-by-christopher-hood-and-ruth-dixon/
    When I wrote my PhD on UK urban planning (1997) all the literature was talking about 'de-regulation' under Mrs T. When I looked at the actual data it showed a huge increase in the regulatory burden. Since a minority of academics favour de-regulation few go looking for evidence of regulatory growth. I suspect this replicates across multiple policy areas and it skews public understanding of what is going on.
    https://x.com/Kaleidicworld/status/2015058240418300075
    He would enjoy Hood and Dixon's book.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,760
    edited 10:38AM
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Off topic, this from Freedman on the travails of government is interesting:

    Quarter of a century ago, Professor Michael Moran came up with the concept of the “regulatory state” to describe the way British government works. He has since passed away but no one has yet produced a better analysis. Nor have many politicians engaged with his ideas, which is a shame because without doing so it’s hard to understand why we are where we are. His argument was that until the 1970s Britain was run like a London club with minimal regulatory oversight. Professions like medicine and finance were self-regulated. Public services had almost no accountability to central government. Private businesses were barely regulated at all. Nor was there any social regulation, like protection of disability rights. Though the state did a lot, Whitehall didn’t.

    This form of “club governance” fell apart across a series of crises in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, from the collapse of Barings Bank to the mad cow disease scandal. Margaret Thatcher also wanted to use the power of government to attack what she saw as low quality taxpayer funded services and inadequate oversight of left-wing public sector workforces. The great myth of Thatcherism is that it was all about making the state smaller whereas, while it reduced capacity at local government level, it made Whitehall a lot larger and more powerful.

    After 1997 New Labour added more oversight of the private sector and social regulation to enforce their human rights legislation. Collectively this led to the creation of a regulatory state without that ever being the intention. An enormous surveillance apparatus was created in an ad hoc fashion. We now have bodies that regulate the professions; that inspect hospitals, schools and other services; that oversee privatised utilities; and try to protect the vulnerable. Across government there are now almost a hundred regulators, and hundreds more public bodies many of which have a quasi-regulatory responsibility, for instance running school assessment or managing public complaints about the NHS. DEFRA alone works with 34 different agencies and public bodies.

    But the creation of this apparatus was not accompanied by any change in the way politicians manage their departments. That has stayed as it was in the club government days, which has created a massive disconnect between expectations of politicians and what they can actually achieve.

    That's very good.
    Freedman's book "Failed state: Why nothing works and how we fix it", which I've recommended here before, is well worth a read, despite being much stronger on why nothing works than on how we fix it.

    The above extract is from a paywalled article, so it would be wrong to paste much more of it, but Freedman goes on to argue that each government tries to tackle the problem by slapping new bodies or levers on top of what's already there, rather than changing anything fundamental. And that state capacity at every level below Westminster is so denuded that many of the things Westminster tries to achieve at the centre simply cannot be delivered out in the localities. The direction of his solutions - toward increasing local capacity and devolving the power to tackle problems - is one that I agree with, but as he observes, national politicians are always schizophrenic towards decentralisation, understanding it conceptually, but ultimately unwilling to cede their own power - even though it's often illusory. As he says, "Any serious attempt to rewire the state needs to focus on the disconnects between power and capacity rather than power per se. "
    I'm absolutely on board with that analysis.

    I recall that one of the better critiques of Thatcher, while she was in power, was very much along those lines.
    And it's simply carried on since then.

    Slashing the regulatory state, though, has to be accompanied by a re-empowering of local government. And the process is likely to be messy.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,800
    Cookie said:

    My view is that Galloway standing is good news for Labour because it splits the grumpy lefty vote. Without Galloway, Greens are favourite, but Galloway will split off a lot more of the Green vote than the Lab vote. It may conceivably be good news for Reform.

    I think Galloway's a bit of a busted flush these days. That makes me think whatever effect it has will be marginal.

    Reform have a chance. I do think their recent polling travails are somewhat exaggerated, and if they pick a charismatic candidate it could be game on.

    But Burnham is strong favourite.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,508
    kle4 said:

    It appears the King sent a private note to Trump over his comments on Afghanistan and it prompted Trumps U turn

    I guess he forgot to add

    P.S I am also King of Canada.
    Exactly. While Trump's U-turn on British troops is welcome, similar apologies and withdrawals are also due to the other Nato service personnel.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,367
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    With his demonic political instincts Hitler was smart enough to know that the SA had outlived its usefulness and no longer fitted in with the brave new Reich. Non-demented Trump might have realised shooting white US citizens in plain sight looks really bad, now not so much. Miller, Vance, Noem, Bondi et al have dipped their hands in so much blood that they're fully committed, any pause or retreat might result in legal examination.
    The enthusiastic support for the Nazis from big business is the biggest refutation of the idiots' cry 'but they were socialists!'. The tech bros falling into line with Trump is yet another startling parallel.

    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,437

    It feels the right time to air this one again:

    A Starmerite, a Brownite, a Corbynite and a Blairite walk into a pub. And the Landlord says 'Evening Andy'.

    You can immediately tell that was a joke. Thre's no such thing as a Starmerite.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,197

    On Topic 2025 rule change by the clique

    The Rules: Under Labour party rules introduced recently, serving directly elected mayors, such as Mr. Burnham, must receive express permission from the NEC to stand for Parliament.

    Burnham has less chance of becoming a Lab MP than Nigel Farage under the SKS clique
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,917

    It appears the King sent a private note to Trump over his comments on Afghanistan and it prompted Trumps U turn

    Too late to teach Trump etiquette. The man's a vulgarian. Good of him to try though
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,639

    It appears the King sent a private note to Trump over his comments on Afghanistan and it prompted Trumps U turn

    Good. Much more effective than falling out publicly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
    What a fresh and original take.

    Why are some billionaires seemingly just as credulous and idiotic as random people on the street?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,042


    On Topic 2025 rule change by the clique

    The Rules: Under Labour party rules introduced recently, serving directly elected mayors, such as Mr. Burnham, must receive express permission from the NEC to stand for Parliament.

    Burnham has less chance of becoming a Lab MP than Nigel Farage under the SKS clique

    We will know within the next couple of hours if he is approved by the NEC
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,917
    Kemi on Desert Island Discs. I thought she might have a pleasant soft side. It seems she doesn't
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,437
    Russian oil and gas revenues 2024 - 9.2 trillion rubles.

    Russian oil ad gas revenues 2025 - 7.1 trillion rubles.

    But the figures are worse than that. The Ukrainia blitz on refineries, export facilities and storage only kicked in from August. Plus, the effective new sanctions on oil only kicked in from November.

    2026 - 5 trillion? 4?
  • Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    The red wonderwall is collapsing.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,488


    On Topic 2025 rule change by the clique

    The Rules: Under Labour party rules introduced recently, serving directly elected mayors, such as Mr. Burnham, must receive express permission from the NEC to stand for Parliament.

    Burnham has less chance of becoming a Lab MP than Nigel Farage under the SKS clique

    We will know within the next couple of hours if he is approved by the NEC
    The politically less-damaging option would be to let him stand, so they'll block him. And in answer to MarqueeMark's observation that's the essence of Starmerism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084
    edited 10:51AM

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    With his demonic political instincts Hitler was smart enough to know that the SA had outlived its usefulness and no longer fitted in with the brave new Reich. Non-demented Trump might have realised shooting white US citizens in plain sight looks really bad, now not so much. Miller, Vance, Noem, Bondi et al have dipped their hands in so much blood that they're fully committed, any pause or retreat might result in legal examination.
    The enthusiastic support for the Nazis from big business is the biggest refutation of the idiots' cry 'but they were socialists!'. The tech bros falling into line with Trump is yet another startling parallel.

    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
    What's going on in the US doesn't, yet at least, look like a concerted attempt to take on and dismantle the sources of opposition power, as happened in Germany in a remarkably determined way and in an amazingly short space of time (and without even majority power, to begin with).

    Insofar as it makes sense, it appears to be some mix of, an attempt to influence the media agenda by pushing immigration and tackling crime to the fore - issues that the Republicans expect to play to their advantage; an attempt to trigger counter-protest in the hope that this will over-react and do more damage to the left than the original injustice does to the right, and playing to their base living in small rural communities far away from the US cities who probably have less understanding of US city life than we do, who will simply see 'their' government "finally getting tough".

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,488
    Roger said:

    Kemi on Desert Island Discs. I thought she might have a pleasant soft side. It seems she doesn't

    I can generally forgive a lot of someone who has good taste in music. She remains unequivocally condemned.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,800


    On Topic 2025 rule change by the clique

    The Rules: Under Labour party rules introduced recently, serving directly elected mayors, such as Mr. Burnham, must receive express permission from the NEC to stand for Parliament.

    Burnham has less chance of becoming a Lab MP than Nigel Farage under the SKS clique

    They cannot stop him without sacrificing the seat to Reform. I just don't think they'll do it. They know Sir Useless is finished anyway.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084

    Roger said:

    Kemi on Desert Island Discs. I thought she might have a pleasant soft side. It seems she doesn't

    I can generally forgive a lot of someone who has good taste in music. She remains unequivocally condemned.
    Michael Jackson is a brave choice, nowadays
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,977
    A reminder that Galloway has already stood and campaigned in a Gorton by-election, getting 5.7%, albeit that parliament ultimately rolled it into the 2017 General Election:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Manchester_Gorton_by-election?wprov=sfla1

    I'd bank on him beating that given the last GE result, though unless the dominoes fall as absurdly as they did in Rochdale, I don't see him running this one close.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,967
    edited 10:56AM

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is very anti Labour these days and shows a bit of conservative with a small c ankle. Big mates with the likes of Jimmy Carr, who is qutie similar. He definitely didn't vote Labour when Jezza was about,. was very vocally against him, and doesn't seem to like Starmer very much.
    Jimmy Carr, comedian, lifestyle guru and lately political pundit. To be fair, he does offer some pithy insight, for instance woke is American Marxism, and the focus on equality of status rather than class or money. Cynics might say it is Joe Rogan in one minute rather than two hours but...
    I think that's pretty unfair on Carr.

    Rogan is poorly read and beliefs are all over the place and often inconsistent, but that allowed him in "peak Rogan" period to ask the sort of questions the vast majority of the public might be asking themselves to interesting people (and some crazies). Now its less of the interesting guests, more of the crazies and much more of the "hot takes".

    Carr on the other hand is extremely well read across many different topics and has clearly considered his position on lots of things, and has come to a particular world view that I would say definitely leans right economically, socially liberal and then some interesting takes in the middle.
    As I think I have said before, whilst I am not the greatest fan of Carr's comedy, I do think he makes valuable contributions to the debate on modern life and where it has gone wrong (and right). I may not always agree with him - though mostly I do - but I value his ability to provide thoughtful, informed and considered analysis of the modern condition.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,529

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is very anti Labour these days and shows a bit of conservative with a small c ankle. Big mates with the likes of Jimmy Carr, who is qutie similar. He definitely didn't vote Labour when Jezza was about,. was very vocally against him, and doesn't seem to like Starmer very much.
    Jimmy Carr, comedian, lifestyle guru and lately political pundit. To be fair, he does offer some pithy insight, for instance woke is American Marxism, and the focus on equality of status rather than class or money. Cynics might say it is Joe Rogan in one minute rather than two hours but...
    I think that's pretty unfair on Carr.

    Rogan is poorly read and beliefs are all over the place and often inconsistent, but that allowed him in "peak Rogan" period to ask the sort of questions the vast majority of the public might be asking themselves to interesting people (and some crazies). Now its less of the interesting guests, more of the crazies and much more of the "hot takes".

    Carr on the other hand is extremely well read across many different topics and has clearly considered his position on lots of things, and has come to a particular world view that I would say definitely leans right economically, socially liberal and then some interesting takes in the middle.
    As I think I have said before, whilst I am not the greatest fan of Carr's comedy, I do think he makes valuable contributions to the debate on modern life and where it has gone wrong (and right). I may not always agree with him - though mostly I do - but I value his ability to provide thoughtful, informed and considered analysis of the modern condition.
    I would happily pay for him to talk seriously. Have no interest in paying to watch his stand up.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,515

    Russian oil and gas revenues 2024 - 9.2 trillion rubles.

    Russian oil ad gas revenues 2025 - 7.1 trillion rubles.

    But the figures are worse than that. The Ukrainia blitz on refineries, export facilities and storage only kicked in from August. Plus, the effective new sanctions on oil only kicked in from November.

    2026 - 5 trillion? 4?

    The capacity is around 50% down already, and most of it isn’t coming back. India isn’t buying much in the face of US sanctions and tariffs, so it’s only China left. They’re paying rubles for the oil, and selling bonds in Yuan to Russia at the same time. Economic strangulation.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,853

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is very anti Labour these days and shows a bit of conservative with a small c ankle. Big mates with the likes of Jimmy Carr, who is qutie similar. He definitely didn't vote Labour when Jezza was about,. was very vocally against him, and doesn't seem to like Starmer very much.
    Jimmy Carr, comedian, lifestyle guru and lately political pundit. To be fair, he does offer some pithy insight, for instance woke is American Marxism, and the focus on equality of status rather than class or money. Cynics might say it is Joe Rogan in one minute rather than two hours but...
    I think that's pretty unfair on Carr.

    Rogan is poorly read and beliefs are all over the place and often inconsistent, but that allowed him in "peak Rogan" period to ask the sort of questions the vast majority of the public might be asking themselves to interesting people (and some crazies). Now its less of the interesting guests, more of the crazies and much more of the "hot takes".

    Carr on the other hand is extremely well read across many different topics and has clearly considered his position on lots of things, and has come to a particular world view that I would say definitely leans right economically, socially liberal and then some interesting takes in the middle.
    Poorly worded. I am pro-Carr although I've not watched Fackham Hall.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,685
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    With his demonic political instincts Hitler was smart enough to know that the SA had outlived its usefulness and no longer fitted in with the brave new Reich. Non-demented Trump might have realised shooting white US citizens in plain sight looks really bad, now not so much. Miller, Vance, Noem, Bondi et al have dipped their hands in so much blood that they're fully committed, any pause or retreat might result in legal examination.
    The enthusiastic support for the Nazis from big business is the biggest refutation of the idiots' cry 'but they were socialists!'. The tech bros falling into line with Trump is yet another startling parallel.

    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
    What's going on in the US doesn't, yet at least, look like a concerted attempt to take on and dismantle the sources of opposition power, as happened in Germany in a remarkably determined way and in an amazingly short space of time (and without even majority power, to begin with).

    Insofar as it makes sense, it appears to be some mix of, an attempt to influence the media agenda by pushing immigration and tackling crime to the fore - issues that the Republicans expect to play to their advantage; an attempt to trigger counter-protest in the hope that this will over-react and do more damage to the left than the original injustice does to the right, and playing to their base living in small rural communities far away from the US cities who probably have less understanding of US city life than we do, who will simply see 'their' government "finally getting tough".

    I think it is more than that. The open ignoring of court instructions, the memos telling ICE executive orders are more important than the constitution, the intimidation to obtain voting records, it may not be all encompassing, but it does look like trying to overwhelm alternative sources of power.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,365
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
    What a fresh and original take.

    Why are some billionaires seemingly just as credulous and idiotic as random people on the street?
    The correlation between wealth and intelligence is weaker than the 'just deserts' theory would have us believe.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,437
    Sandpit said:

    Russian oil and gas revenues 2024 - 9.2 trillion rubles.

    Russian oil ad gas revenues 2025 - 7.1 trillion rubles.

    But the figures are worse than that. The Ukrainia blitz on refineries, export facilities and storage only kicked in from August. Plus, the effective new sanctions on oil only kicked in from November.

    2026 - 5 trillion? 4?

    The capacity is around 50% down already, and most of it isn’t coming back. India isn’t buying much in the face of US sanctions and tariffs, so it’s only China left. They’re paying rubles for the oil, and selling bonds in Yuan to Russia at the same time. Economic strangulation.
    And until they screwed the pooch and invaded Ukraine, this was a G8 country...
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,237
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    With his demonic political instincts Hitler was smart enough to know that the SA had outlived its usefulness and no longer fitted in with the brave new Reich. Non-demented Trump might have realised shooting white US citizens in plain sight looks really bad, now not so much. Miller, Vance, Noem, Bondi et al have dipped their hands in so much blood that they're fully committed, any pause or retreat might result in legal examination.
    The enthusiastic support for the Nazis from big business is the biggest refutation of the idiots' cry 'but they were socialists!'. The tech bros falling into line with Trump is yet another startling parallel.

    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
    What's going on in the US doesn't, yet at least, look like a concerted attempt to take on and dismantle the sources of opposition power, as happened in Germany in a remarkably determined way and in an amazingly short space of time (and without even majority power, to begin with).

    Insofar as it makes sense, it appears to be some mix of, an attempt to influence the media agenda by pushing immigration and tackling crime to the fore - issues that the Republicans expect to play to their advantage; an attempt to trigger counter-protest in the hope that this will over-react and do more damage to the left than the original injustice does to the right, and playing to their base living in small rural communities far away from the US cities who probably have less understanding of US city life than we do, who will simply see 'their' government "finally getting tough".

    I think it is more than that. The open ignoring of court instructions, the memos telling ICE executive orders are more important than the constitution, the intimidation to obtain voting records, it may not be all encompassing, but it does look like trying to overwhelm alternative sources of power.
    It isn't entirely clear one way or the other. The mid-terms will be crucial. If they are rigged the USA may then be too far gone to be considered a free and democratic State.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,846
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
    What a fresh and original take.

    Why are some billionaires seemingly just as credulous and idiotic as random people on the street?
    To be fair, the original German Workers Party was sort of socialist, along with a hefty dose of ethno-nationaliam. The remaining people who took the "sozi" bit seriously were sidelined, or purged along with the SA.

    Showing that entryism works if you want to set up a fascist party.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    With his demonic political instincts Hitler was smart enough to know that the SA had outlived its usefulness and no longer fitted in with the brave new Reich. Non-demented Trump might have realised shooting white US citizens in plain sight looks really bad, now not so much. Miller, Vance, Noem, Bondi et al have dipped their hands in so much blood that they're fully committed, any pause or retreat might result in legal examination.
    The enthusiastic support for the Nazis from big business is the biggest refutation of the idiots' cry 'but they were socialists!'. The tech bros falling into line with Trump is yet another startling parallel.

    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
    The party had its name before Hitler joined, took it over, and shaped it to his purposes, I believe?

    During the early days, it did have a strong proto-socialist wing, aimed at capturing the working classes from the communists, and this guy, who was a brilliant organiser, built the party up from nothing in the industrial north and west:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Strasser

    Around the time the Nazis came to power, Hitler took on and dispensed with this wing of the party, whose outlook didn't conform to Hitler's personal agenda, and because he was unable to tolerate any potential challenge to his leadership. Strasser was forced out of politics and his followers forced to toe the emerging party line, and although Strasser was allowed to stay out of politics and keep his head down for a year or so, he met his end during the 'Night of the Long Knives'.

    While, per the horseshoe theory, there are many aspects of Nazi policy and reality that mirror how the communists ran the USSR (such as party-control of 'fake' labour unions), its relationship with business was entirely different, as was its having supremacist ideology based on race at its very heart.
  • kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Given ICE appears to have a memo stating that their view is an executive order trumps, ahem, the 4th amendment, they may well be instructing all their agents they can basically do anything.

    After each execution every prominent member of the regime issues a statement saying they stand fully behind the stormtroopers
    Suggesting that this year we will be moving from 1933 to 1934...
    Looking on the bright side, that's would suggest eine Nacht der langen Messer is on its way. I'm sure we all have our fovourite candidate for the Röhm role.
    The story from the fall of Weimar was that extra-state paramilitary power (the existence of which was essentially a fallout from the end of WW1), which could be deployed by leading politicians on illegal and violent tasks but then responsibility denied when it suited - was exceptionally useful in enabling them to take control of the state - not just government, but civil society. Some of the stories of properly elected centre-left politicians being beaten up in or physically dragged out of their offices, homes or council meetings and promised violence for them and their families until they resigned, which most of them then did - are horrifying.

    Once the levers and organisations of state and society had been fully captured, the existence of semi-detached paramilitary power became a liabilty rather than asset, and an unwelcome alternative source of power, since the ability then existed (and the obstacles had been removed) to deploy violence under direct state control, and send many centre and left wing politicians off for a spell in Dachau.
    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk
    Hitler was a far left socialist. His party was called the national socialists.

    https://x.com/ddiamond/status/2015239226141331949?s=20
    What a fresh and original take.

    Why are some billionaires seemingly just as credulous and idiotic as random people on the street?
    To be fair, the original German Workers Party was sort of socialist, along with a hefty dose of ethno-nationaliam. The remaining people who took the "sozi" bit seriously were sidelined, or purged along with the SA.

    Showing that entryism works if you want to set up a fascist party.
    Exactly. Trump isn't a Republican, but he's taken over the Republican party from within.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,917
    I got myself an electric car and it is completely without personality It's like a milk float. Just push a button and it moves forward. It always makes me think of Keir Starmer. Having just listened to Desert Island Discs it reminds me of Kemi even more
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    How about a free Oasis concert if Burnham wins? He's a mate of theirs. That should do it

    I thought Noel (or Liam) had gone Tory.
    They're not the brightest-particularly Liam- but I don't think they're that stupid!
    Noel is very anti Labour these days and shows a bit of conservative with a small c ankle. Big mates with the likes of Jimmy Carr, who is qutie similar. He definitely didn't vote Labour when Jezza was about,. was very vocally against him, and doesn't seem to like Starmer very much.
    Jimmy Carr, comedian, lifestyle guru and lately political pundit. To be fair, he does offer some pithy insight, for instance woke is American Marxism, and the focus on equality of status rather than class or money. Cynics might say it is Joe Rogan in one minute rather than two hours but...
    I think that's pretty unfair on Carr.

    Rogan is poorly read and beliefs are all over the place and often inconsistent, but that allowed him in "peak Rogan" period to ask the sort of questions the vast majority of the public might be asking themselves to interesting people (and some crazies). Now its less of the interesting guests, more of the crazies and much more of the "hot takes".

    Carr on the other hand is extremely well read across many different topics and has clearly considered his position on lots of things, and has come to a particular world view that I would say definitely leans right economically, socially liberal and then some interesting takes in the middle.
    As I think I have said before, whilst I am not the greatest fan of Carr's comedy, I do think he makes valuable contributions to the debate on modern life and where it has gone wrong (and right). I may not always agree with him - though mostly I do - but I value his ability to provide thoughtful, informed and considered analysis of the modern condition.
    I would happily pay for him to talk seriously. Have no interest in paying to watch his stand up.
    He's just a centrist dad who's quite happy not paying his taxes, despite being in the top 1 or 2% earnings wise..🧐
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,084
    Looks like North Carolina is about to be at the centre of yet another severe adverse weather event
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