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And breathe – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,900
edited January 21 in General
And breathe – politicalbetting.com

Billy Big Balls blinks first, @realDonaldTrump gives it large until he gets it back in spades. pic.twitter.com/qFdkYHHTPB

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,848
    First!

    Like a Trump reverse ferret.
  • Photos leaked to BBC show faces of hundreds killed in Iran's brutal protest crackdown

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r4957rq8ro
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,136
    FPT

    Just what the world of cricket needs.

    Another T20 league.

    This time Europe.

    https://x.com/espncricinfo/status/2013800315985056124?s=61
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,136
    So is it now likely the EU-USA trade deal will now be back on.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,217
    edited January 21
    How easy is it to get a job/visa in Canada?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,325
    So- did DJT blink, or was this another 'create a panic/solve the panic' cycle allowing those near DJT to do a shabby grift on the markets?

    Not that either of them is especially good news for the rest of us, and not that either of them allows us to treat Americans as reliable allies, but it would be useful to know which model they are following.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,450

    Photos leaked to BBC show faces of hundreds killed in Iran's brutal protest crackdown

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r4957rq8ro

    The reckoning, when it comes, well...

    The ayatollahs are surely sowing the wind.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,385
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    COLLINS: Does it include the US having ownership of Greenland?

    TRUMP: It's a long term deal. It's the ultimate long term deal

    COLLINS: How long is it?

    TRUMP: Infinite. There is no time limit. It's a deal that's forever.



    Is it possible the 'deal' he was offered was the US can put as many bases as they want in Greenland and fuck all else?

    They just needed to ask. It was hardly in Greenland's interest to say "No, we don't want protection from a nuclear attack with your poxy "Golden Dome"....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,617
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    COLLINS: Does it include the US having ownership of Greenland?

    TRUMP: It's a long term deal. It's the ultimate long term deal

    COLLINS: How long is it?

    TRUMP: Infinite. There is no time limit. It's a deal that's forever.



    Is it possible the 'deal' he was offered was the US can put as many bases as they want in Greenland and fuck all else?

    It's Chagos North.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,617
    Now, about those Epstein files.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,385
    Nigelb said:

    Now, about those Epstein files.

    Er....now, about Iran....
  • Photos leaked to BBC show faces of hundreds killed in Iran's brutal protest crackdown

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r4957rq8ro

    The reckoning, when it comes, well...

    The ayatollahs are surely sowing the wind.
    You'd hope so and soon but speaking to a Iranian heritage friend last night, they sadly pointed out it has been 37 years since the Tiananmen Square massacre and the Communist party is still in control.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,136

    So- did DJT blink, or was this another 'create a panic/solve the panic' cycle allowing those near DJT to do a shabby grift on the markets?

    Not that either of them is especially good news for the rest of us, and not that either of them allows us to treat Americans as reliable allies, but it would be useful to know which model they are following.

    Given this isn’t the first time we’ve been here it’s escalate to de-escalate.

    It’s his strategy.

    It’s even in his book.
  • UK would be ‘crazy’ not to consider new EU customs union, says minister

    https://www.ft.com/content/349f7538-0cd1-4e98-a410-70fe94a4950b
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,619

    Nigelb said:

    Now, about those Epstein files.

    Er....now, about Iran....
    TACO

    He was talking bollocks to the brave people of Tehran.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,574
    Andy_JS said:

    "Europe must give Trump what he wants
    Stephen Daisley" (£)

    https://spectator.com/article/europe-must-give-trump-what-he-wants/

    In demanding Greenland, he has read his credit card bill aloud to us and unzipped himself expectantly.

    And the correct response is to acquiesce. Right.
    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    scampi25 said:

    I'd like to see the final deal before deciding if anyone has "won".

    There is no deal.

    Trump can now place some missiles on Greenland, as he could have always done more quickly via a junior US military officer emailing their Danish counterpart.

    Greenland will remain a part of Denmark. Increased Danish and non-US NATO troops will remain there. No tariffs will come into effect for said nations.

    It's an utter capitulation from Trump, for now at least.

    But if I were Starmer I would be calling it a very hard won deal to Trump's face. Keep the oversized toddler happy.
    It does look like a complete climb down by Trump but it would be an illusion to think that we are back to the status quo. The threat of tariffs and military threats against allies will not be forgotten. The world has changed as Carney has spelt out. No one pretends any longer that the US is a reliable ally. The steps to reduce reliance on the US will continue. He has done immense damage to the US and its standing in the world. Again.
    This is the thing - he's been crass and aggressive before, sure, and bluffed and bullied, and because the USA is so powerful and the relationship worthwhile countries look the other way and move on.

    This time he militarily threatened NATO allies, that is so far over the line. He's now said he won't do that, I guess, and very desperate people will say it was crude but ok because he never really meant it, but the very threat is such a deal breaker.

    We very clearly saw that the vast majority of his political minions were going to go along with military action if he required it too, so the fact it did not happen does not excuse ignoring it by thinking it could never happen.

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    COLLINS: Does it include the US having ownership of Greenland?

    TRUMP: It's a long term deal. It's the ultimate long term deal

    COLLINS: How long is it?

    TRUMP: Infinite. There is no time limit. It's a deal that's forever.



    Is it possible the 'deal' he was offered was the US can put as many bases as they want in Greenland and fuck all else?

    They just needed to ask. It was hardly in Greenland's interest to say "No, we don't want protection from a nuclear attack with your poxy "Golden Dome"....
    Indeed. A confected outrage and necessity which he will now protray as a great achievement which required him to threaten invasion (and yes, very deliberately 'not ruling out' such an action is the same as threatening it), thus proving what a genius negotiator he is.

    See it in the Telegraph soon.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,617

    So- did DJT blink, or was this another 'create a panic/solve the panic' cycle allowing those near DJT to do a shabby grift on the markets?

    Not that either of them is especially good news for the rest of us, and not that either of them allows us to treat Americans as reliable allies, but it would be useful to know which model they are following.

    Who knows ?

    But every piece if evidence we have is that if you push back, Trump sometimes caves.
    If you kowtow, he just pushes further.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,325
    Taz said:

    So is it now likely the EU-USA trade deal will now be back on.

    Even if it is, it's a less useful deal than it was a few days ago.

    You're more of a businessman than I am. If you see a potential trading partner going though these occasional meltdowns, you're going to look pretty hard for someone less flaky to trade with- aren't you?

    Bad news for America, Inc. Good news for any insider traders.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,385

    Nigelb said:

    Now, about those Epstein files.

    Er....now, about Iran....
    TACO

    He was talking bollocks to the brave people of Tehran.
    Until they launched a missile with a 10k range...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,682
    I guess the markets spooked him.

    Seems to be the only thing he respects.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,617
    This is the lying arse we just invited to address Parliament.

    Speaker Mike Johnson, 2nd in line of succession to the presidency and blushing furiously from shame, claims to not know about Trump inviting Putin to his "Board of Peace." Either he's lying or incompetent.
    https://x.com/ReallyAmerican1/status/2014030723838091532

    Doesn't even have the excuse of being senile.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,920

    UK would be ‘crazy’ not to consider new EU customs union, says minister

    https://www.ft.com/content/349f7538-0cd1-4e98-a410-70fe94a4950b

    I'm sure it will be "considered" and those anxious to seek us back in the EU will be delighted but let's not assume this is anything other than a Minister speaking to a significant group whose group his Government might need for re-election.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,848
    Eabhal said:

    How easy is it to get a job/visa in Canada?

    A bit tough for either at the moment. The economy is suffering and Canada is slashing visa numbers:

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/article/2026-will-see-canada-slash-immigration-targets-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-year-ahead/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,843
    A Greenlander's point of view. So beautiful and no interest in money fake boobs or anything Trump has to offer.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMPe_e-WRMk
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,136

    Taz said:

    So is it now likely the EU-USA trade deal will now be back on.

    Even if it is, it's a less useful deal than it was a few days ago.

    You're more of a businessman than I am. If you see a potential trading partner going though these occasional meltdowns, you're going to look pretty hard for someone less flaky to trade with- aren't you?

    Bad news for America, Inc. Good news for any insider traders.
    Absolutely you will.

    As I said in the previous thread. He is so volatile you don’t know what is going to happen next. You need reliable partners on both side.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,278

    So- did DJT blink, or was this another 'create a panic/solve the panic' cycle allowing those near DJT to do a shabby grift on the markets?

    Not that either of them is especially good news for the rest of us, and not that either of them allows us to treat Americans as reliable allies, but it would be useful to know which model they are following.

    Trump rambles and bloviates, with little understanding of what is happening. At some point, those around him dig him out of the mess with some fake “win”. I don’t think someone who can’t remember whether he wants Greenland or Iceland realises that he’s blinked, achieved nothing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,682
    Tom Nichols
    @RadioFreeTom
    ·
    50m
    I will almost guarantee that there is no deal or framework for a deal; this is a walk-back. Congress should never have let it get this far, and the damage and humiliation can't be undone, but this is a good outcome (so far).

    https://x.com/RadioFreeTom/status/2014065234206437872
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,482

    Photos leaked to BBC show faces of hundreds killed in Iran's brutal protest crackdown

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r4957rq8ro

    The reckoning, when it comes, well...

    The ayatollahs are surely sowing the wind.
    You'd hope so and soon but speaking to a Iranian heritage friend last night, they sadly pointed out it has been 37 years since the Tiananmen Square massacre and the Communist party is still in control.
    That is true. But the Chinese were able to placate their people through delivering record levels of growth over two decades. Not an option for the Mullahs, I'd think.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,160
    So what was all the fuss about then? Seems like Trump has put his Art of the Deal into practice with Rutte over Greenland
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,366
    Nigelb said:

    So- did DJT blink, or was this another 'create a panic/solve the panic' cycle allowing those near DJT to do a shabby grift on the markets?

    Not that either of them is especially good news for the rest of us, and not that either of them allows us to treat Americans as reliable allies, but it would be useful to know which model they are following.

    Who knows ?

    But every piece if evidence we have is that if you push back, Trump sometimes caves.
    If you kowtow, he just pushes further.
    This one is very much in the public eye, and SFAICS looks like defeat and withdrawal. If it can happen this time, it can happen again. The bully is not invincible.

    I wonder if a factor is in this question: How many American young men's deaths would their mothers, and all the other mothers including Trump voters, think a reasonable sacrifice for the cowardly conquest of a peaceful and defenceless friendly ally and neighbour.

    A number not unadjacent to Zero?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,574
    Nigelb said:

    This is the lying arse we just invited to address Parliament.

    Speaker Mike Johnson, 2nd in line of succession to the presidency and blushing furiously from shame, claims to not know about Trump inviting Putin to his "Board of Peace." Either he's lying or incompetent.
    https://x.com/ReallyAmerican1/status/2014030723838091532

    Doesn't even have the excuse of being senile.

    Claiming not to know things, or seen or heard specific things, even when it has been very widely spread is a classic political dodge. Even if you show them the thing you are asking about so they are now aware, they refuse to answer.

    The idea Johnson has shame about it though is optimistic.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,385
    edited January 21
    Roger said:

    A Greenlander's point of view. So beautiful and no interest in money fake boobs or anything Trump has to offer.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMPe_e-WRMk

    "You can't own property. You can get an allotment..."

    They've given him an allotment, haven't they?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,848
    Nigelb said:

    This is the lying arse we just invited to address Parliament.

    Speaker Mike Johnson, 2nd in line of succession to the presidency and blushing furiously from shame, claims to not know about Trump inviting Putin to his "Board of Peace." Either he's lying or incompetent.
    https://x.com/ReallyAmerican1/status/2014030723838091532

    Doesn't even have the excuse of being senile.

    Johnson always claims to not know about the latest Trump idiocy. That way he doesn't have have to defend the indefensible. His mendacity is only exceeded by his cowardice.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,866
    @joncooper-us.bsky.social‬

    Harry Enten: “Wanna know how poorly Trump buying Greenland polls? Worse than the Epstein files. Seriously, Trump's net approval rating on any attempt to buy Greenland (-40 pts) is lower than his net approval on the Epstein files (-38 pts). Greenland is arguably Trump's worst polling issue.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/joncooper-us.bsky.social/post/3mcxj4lcjzc26
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,299
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    So- did DJT blink, or was this another 'create a panic/solve the panic' cycle allowing those near DJT to do a shabby grift on the markets?

    Not that either of them is especially good news for the rest of us, and not that either of them allows us to treat Americans as reliable allies, but it would be useful to know which model they are following.

    Who knows ?

    But every piece if evidence we have is that if you push back, Trump sometimes caves.
    If you kowtow, he just pushes further.
    This one is very much in the public eye, and SFAICS looks like defeat and withdrawal. If it can happen this time, it can happen again. The bully is not invincible.

    I wonder if a factor is in this question: How many American young men's deaths would their mothers, and all the other mothers including Trump voters, think a reasonable sacrifice for the cowardly conquest of a peaceful and defenceless friendly ally and neighbour.

    A number not unadjacent to Zero?

    TBH, I’d expect a similar number here when it came to Greenlands defence.
  • Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,574
    Scott_xP said:

    @joncooper-us.bsky.social‬

    Harry Enten: “Wanna know how poorly Trump buying Greenland polls? Worse than the Epstein files. Seriously, Trump's net approval rating on any attempt to buy Greenland (-40 pts) is lower than his net approval on the Epstein files (-38 pts). Greenland is arguably Trump's worst polling issue.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/joncooper-us.bsky.social/post/3mcxj4lcjzc26

    He just sees the glory in displays of raw strength. The american public mostly love that too, I'm sure we would too if we could. But they do have limits. Very bizarre limits, but limits.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,734

    Taz said:

    So is it now likely the EU-USA trade deal will now be back on.

    Even if it is, it's a less useful deal than it was a few days ago.

    You're more of a businessman than I am. If you see a potential trading partner going though these occasional meltdowns, you're going to look pretty hard for someone less flaky to trade with- aren't you?

    Bad news for America, Inc. Good news for any insider traders.
    I'm going to make a conscious effort to replace US brands with alternatives where possible.
  • Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,385

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Kemi setting the agenda...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,325
    Nigelb said:

    So- did DJT blink, or was this another 'create a panic/solve the panic' cycle allowing those near DJT to do a shabby grift on the markets?

    Not that either of them is especially good news for the rest of us, and not that either of them allows us to treat Americans as reliable allies, but it would be useful to know which model they are following.

    Who knows ?

    But every piece if evidence we have is that if you push back, Trump sometimes caves.
    If you kowtow, he just pushes further.
    There's kowtow and kowtow, though. Think of it in terms of responding to a toddler having a public tantrum. Sometimes the right response is to forcefully push back, starting with the naughty step and escalating as necessary. But sometimes the right response is to be utterly non-comittal, as much deadpan 'I can hear you shouting at me' as possible. It works because the most effective thing to do to an attention-seeker is give them as little feedback as possible.

    Doing the second requires almost superhuman quantities of sangfoid, as well as the wisdom to choose correctly between the two paths.

    (It's why it's a good thing that nobody went full-on Love, Actually on the Donald, however cathartic it would have been for all of us.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,619

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,617

    Taz said:

    So is it now likely the EU-USA trade deal will now be back on.

    Even if it is, it's a less useful deal than it was a few days ago.

    You're more of a businessman than I am. If you see a potential trading partner going though these occasional meltdowns, you're going to look pretty hard for someone less flaky to trade with- aren't you?

    Bad news for America, Inc. Good news for any insider traders.
    Nonetheless, a trade war is averted for now.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,182
    Traitors again. Bloody hell.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,619
    dixiedean said:

    Traitors again. Bloody hell.

    Is that a BBC2 documentary about the former UKIP political outfit?
  • Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
  • Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,735

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    🤮.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,735

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
  • Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,619

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Reports from Aussie are so far generally positive.

    I suspect it's a bit like lockdowns. Great for some and a nightmare of loneliness for others.
  • Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    It is up to parents to monitor and regulate their kids phone use, if they buy them a phone. No need for the government to illiberally get involved.

    If parents are OK with their kids having social media, with restrictions they determine, then that should be allowed.

    Any state regulations are far less likely to work than parental ones and will be easily by-passed, just like the VPN farce.

    Let parents be the parents, not the government.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,735

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
  • Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
    No
  • eekeek Posts: 32,332
    edited January 21
    The UK once quietly bumped off their king early to ensure better newspaper headlines.

    Just leaving that idea out there for the USA..
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,379

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Amendment to what please?
  • viewcode said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Amendment to what please?
    BBC News - Peers urged to vote social media ban for under-16s - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz0pnekxpn8o?app-referrer=deep-link
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,086
    Nigelb said:

    So- did DJT blink, or was this another 'create a panic/solve the panic' cycle allowing those near DJT to do a shabby grift on the markets?

    Not that either of them is especially good news for the rest of us, and not that either of them allows us to treat Americans as reliable allies, but it would be useful to know which model they are following.

    Who knows ?

    But every piece if evidence we have is that if you push back, Trump sometimes caves.
    If you kowtow, he just pushes further.
    @rcs1000 was a leading proponent of Trump Always Folds, IIRC
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,595
    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?
  • MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    I disagree wholeheartedly.

    A lot of this is being pushed by people who object to social media altogether, but the genie is out of the bottle and kids are going to grow up and enter a world with social media whether you like it or not.

    The only question is whether they enter it with parental regulations and support, or via circumventing the regulations or without any phasing in.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,735

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
    No
    I followed it closely when proposed, argued and introduced in Australia. I can tell you the key piece of detail straight away - it’s not a ban on under sixteens having access to phones, devices or internet use - it’s merely a ban on platforms giving under sixteens accounts. The rest is still parenting.

    So where some children will have better quality of life, better quality education and self learning, other children will be deprived this, so I liken it to those parents who banned Rock n Roll in the house, believing they were doing good. Banning Rock n Roll was actual bizarre, bad parenting.

    And the real kicker here is the actual problem - predatory and addictive algorithms - problem applies to everyone, all ages, not just children. Where is the actual policy needed?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,866
    Cookie said:

    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?

    I spent Christmas in that area a few times, and we did the ferry from Newcastle with an overnight in Bonn, which is a lovely place.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,209

    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    I disagree wholeheartedly.

    A lot of this is being pushed by people who object to social media altogether, but the genie is out of the bottle and kids are going to grow up and enter a world with social media whether you like it or not.

    The only question is whether they enter it with parental regulations and support, or via circumventing the regulations or without any phasing in.
    You disagree because you don't know. I'm sure you would have been disagreeing with laws to restrict underage smoking back when the tobacco companies were happily telling the public that the effects of smoking were nothing to do with them. It's up to parents to stop their kids smoking etc...

    It's actually not very difficult to implement, you put it on the social media companies. £100k fine per under 16 that is allowed an account. The social media companies have the data already and for edge cases they can use the same ID matching services as banks do.

    I just don't think you really understand how little parents can do against the combined weight of $5tn of market capitalisation. Parents have a water pistol but the whole house is on fire.
  • Cookie said:

    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?

    Circa 45 years ago my wife and I and our 3 children did the Hull Rotterdam ferry and stayed overnight in Luxembourg before driving on to our hotel in Fuschl, Austria

    It was fantastic and the kids loved it

    And the added advantage of a boot full of gear
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,182
    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    Neither anxiety nor ADHD are "behavioural disorders".
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,682

    Cookie said:

    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?

    Circa 45 years ago my wife and I and our 3 children did the Hull Rotterdam ferry and stayed overnight in Luxembourg before driving on to our hotel in Fuschl, Austria

    It was fantastic and the kids loved it

    And the added advantage of a boot full of gear
    Yeh, I think a key question would be have the kids done a big ferry trip like this before? If not, then maybe super exciting for them.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    I disagree wholeheartedly.

    A lot of this is being pushed by people who object to social media altogether, but the genie is out of the bottle and kids are going to grow up and enter a world with social media whether you like it or not.

    The only question is whether they enter it with parental regulations and support, or via circumventing the regulations or without any phasing in.
    You disagree because you don't know. I'm sure you would have been disagreeing with laws to restrict underage smoking back when the tobacco companies were happily telling the public that the effects of smoking were nothing to do with them. It's up to parents to stop their kids smoking etc...

    It's actually not very difficult to implement, you put it on the social media companies. £100k fine per under 16 that is allowed an account. The social media companies have the data already and for edge cases they can use the same ID matching services as banks do.

    I just don't think you really understand how little parents can do against the combined weight of $5tn of market capitalisation. Parents have a water pistol but the whole house is on fire.
    I do know, and I do have kids of the age that would be relevant and we have bought our kids tablets, and my eldest a phone, and allow them to use them with social media which we have approved, under restrictions that we have set.

    Smoking and communication are not the same thing whatsoever.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,325
    edited January 21
    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    Though given what we know about how harmful these things are, what's the argument for allowing them for over 16s?

    There are things where society has concluded "you know, it's probably not that good for us, but it's not the end of the world and we'll accept that we can't stop them for everyone." Alcohol is in that category, and tobacco has historically been as well. (Rishi's law to gradually increase the age when you could buy cigarettes died with the election, but was resurrected by the Starmer government and is currently pootling around the Lords.)

    Is social media only a bit harmful like that, or is it more like classified drugs; so harmful that we shouldn't let adults near them either? I think I'm inclined to the latter. In part because the engineering that has gone into them is so ruthless and precise. And I would love to know what those tech megabrains were thinking of getting involved. It's a job, sure, and the instructions to be evil came from above. But "I was only obeying orders" doesn't particularly wash.
  • Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
    No
    I followed it closely when proposed, argued and introduced in Australia. I can tell you the key piece of detail straight away - it’s not a ban on under sixteens having access to phones, devices or internet use - it’s merely a ban on platforms giving under sixteens accounts. The rest is still parenting.

    So where some children will have better quality of life, better quality education and self learning, other children will be deprived this, so I liken it to those parents who banned Rock n Roll in the house, believing they were doing good. Banning Rock n Roll was actual bizarre, bad parenting.

    And the real kicker here is the actual problem - predatory and addictive algorithms - problem applies to everyone, all ages, not just children. Where is the actual policy needed?
    I have already said the answer will be in the detail but there is overwhelming parental support

    One of my children and his wife is in a constant battle with their children over the time on line and also their peer pressure to keep in 24/7 touch including often overnight
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,186
    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    Neither anxiety nor ADHD are "behavioural disorders".
    It also seems rather strange to describe suicide that way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,848
    Scott_xP said:

    Cookie said:

    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?

    I spent Christmas in that area a few times, and we did the ferry from Newcastle with an overnight in Bonn, which is a lovely place.
    Bonn is a lovely city but not much of interest for kids.

    The Rhine and Mosel have lots of pretty small towns, and if the kids are interested in cars the Nurburgring is a brilliant stopover, as a spectator. Those German petrol heads don't mess around.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,574


    Andrew Neil
    @afneil

    The usual Trump sycophants and know-nothings are all piling in claiming he’s a genius, this is the art of the deal in action, he played hardball to get a better Greenland deal than was otherwise available. It’s all nonsense.

    In fact, it’s TACO in action, a Trump surrender, a victory for European NATO for refusing to be cowed/bludgeoned.
    You will find there is nothing in the framework agreement re Greenland/Arctic region that hasn’t been available to USA/Trump for weeks, months, years.

    https://x.com/afneil/status/2014082458573066329

    Maybe there'll be something about how if Greenlanders and Denmark ever want to sell they can?

    But even without it the great victory will be claimed.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,332
    edited January 21
    Cookie said:

    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?

    Ferry from Newcastle to Amsterdam or Train to Amsterdam then Nightjet from Amsterdam to Vienna?

    We did the NightJet from Vienna to Amsterdam in November the new trains are great and rather comfortable (i.e. I slept through the night).
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,182
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    Neither anxiety nor ADHD are "behavioural disorders".
    It also seems rather strange to describe suicide that way.
    Yes. I was going to include that.
    But then I thought. Well it's a behaviour. And it's a stretch to describe it as ordered.
    So I didn't.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,217
    edited January 21
    a

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
    No
    I followed it closely when proposed, argued and introduced in Australia. I can tell you the key piece of detail straight away - it’s not a ban on under sixteens having access to phones, devices or internet use - it’s merely a ban on platforms giving under sixteens accounts. The rest is still parenting.

    So where some children will have better quality of life, better quality education and self learning, other children will be deprived this, so I liken it to those parents who banned Rock n Roll in the house, believing they were doing good. Banning Rock n Roll was actual bizarre, bad parenting.

    And the real kicker here is the actual problem - predatory and addictive algorithms - problem applies to everyone, all ages, not just children. Where is the actual policy needed?
    I have already said the answer will be in the detail but there is overwhelming parental support

    One of my children and his wife is in a constant battle with their children over the time on line and also their peer pressure to keep in 24/7 touch including often overnight
    That's always the big problem - you can have well-meaning parents but if every other kid at school has an e-scooter (actually illegal to use) and that's the way they meet up with pals, what can you do?

    What this legislation needs paired with is an extensive and high-quality public information campaign making it clear what is supposed to be normal and appropriate behaviour. That seems seriously lacking at the moment for some reason - particularly changes to things like the Highway Code. There's more to governance than passing laws.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,954

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    But not by many experts in Child health care nor by organisations like the NSPCC
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,182
    edited January 21

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
    No
    I followed it closely when proposed, argued and introduced in Australia. I can tell you the key piece of detail straight away - it’s not a ban on under sixteens having access to phones, devices or internet use - it’s merely a ban on platforms giving under sixteens accounts. The rest is still parenting.

    So where some children will have better quality of life, better quality education and self learning, other children will be deprived this, so I liken it to those parents who banned Rock n Roll in the house, believing they were doing good. Banning Rock n Roll was actual bizarre, bad parenting.

    And the real kicker here is the actual problem - predatory and addictive algorithms - problem applies to everyone, all ages, not just children. Where is the actual policy needed?
    I have already said the answer will be in the detail but there is overwhelming parental support

    One of my children and his wife is in a constant battle with their children over the time on line and also their peer pressure to keep in 24/7 touch including often overnight
    But again. You're conflating social media and screen time.
    Being on YouTube 24/7 or messaging using What's App. They aren't social media.
    I doubt many parents will be looking at their own habits either.
    It's do as I say not as I do.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,595

    Cookie said:

    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?

    Circa 45 years ago my wife and I and our 3 children did the Hull Rotterdam ferry and stayed overnight in Luxembourg before driving on to our hotel in Fuschl, Austria

    It was fantastic and the kids loved it

    And the added advantage of a boot full of gear
    Yeh, I think a key question would be have the kids done a big ferry trip like this before? If not, then maybe super exciting for them.
    We did it two years ago - Hull-Rotterdam - prior to a holiday in the low countries. It was brilliant - leaving the country via Hull is so delightfully straightforward, like slipping out the back door - and I found sailing down the Humber mesmeric. The ferry experience is definitely an advantage (as well as being cheaper). My qualms are about a 12hr drive across Germany. It might be fun or it might just be a slog. Appreciate all the views though.
  • Eabhal said:

    a

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
    No
    I followed it closely when proposed, argued and introduced in Australia. I can tell you the key piece of detail straight away - it’s not a ban on under sixteens having access to phones, devices or internet use - it’s merely a ban on platforms giving under sixteens accounts. The rest is still parenting.

    So where some children will have better quality of life, better quality education and self learning, other children will be deprived this, so I liken it to those parents who banned Rock n Roll in the house, believing they were doing good. Banning Rock n Roll was actual bizarre, bad parenting.

    And the real kicker here is the actual problem - predatory and addictive algorithms - problem applies to everyone, all ages, not just children. Where is the actual policy needed?
    I have already said the answer will be in the detail but there is overwhelming parental support

    One of my children and his wife is in a constant battle with their children over the time on line and also their peer pressure to keep in 24/7 touch including often overnight
    That's always the big problem - you can have well-meaning parents but if every other kid at school has an e-scooter (actually illegal to use) and that's the way they meet up pals, what can you do?

    What this legislation needs paired with is an extensive and high-quality public information campaign making it clear what is supposed to be normal and appropriate behaviour. That seems seriously lacking at the moment for some reason - particularly changes to things like the Highway Code. There's more to governance than passing laws.
    Peer pressure in teenagers is very much part of the problem, and there is no way parents can control their behaviour when they are together or communicating as I said sometimes overnight
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,209

    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    Though given what we know about how harmful these things are, what's the argument for allowing them for over 16s?

    There are things where society has concluded "you know, it's probably not that good for us, but it's not the end of the world and we'll accept that we can't stop them for everyone." Alcohol is in that cateogry, and tobacco has historically been as well. (Rishi's law to gradually increase the age when you could buy cigarettes died with the election, but was resurrected by the Starmer government and is currently pootling around the Lords.)

    Is social media only a bit harmful like that, or is it more like classified drugs; so harmful that we shouldn't let adults near them either? I think I'm inclined to the latter. In part because the engineering that has gone into them is so ruthless and precise. And I would love to know what those tech megabrains were thinking of getting involved. It's a job, sure, and the instructions to be evil came from above. But "I was only obeying orders" doesn't particularly wash.
    I think social media falls into the alcohol category, or maybe somewhere between booze and fags. It's definitely a "we'll live with it but probably not let kids have it" the same as both of those.

    You'd be surprised at how much "advancement" in social media algorithms is driven by a clever data scientist wanting to solve the problem they've been handed. They don't really see the context, it's just some OKR like "increase the number of scrolls/swipes by 10% YoY" and then they deploy whatever strategies they can to achieve it. It's never framed as "make sure kids spend an extra 30 minutes per day scrolling" for the reason you touch on, they'd probably say no.

    I turned down a job with Meta a couple of years ago because I have them in the same category as tobacco companies, and similarly they pay a premium. They offered me $550k for a director role so it was tempting but ultimately being able to sleep at night was more important.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,866
    According to the
    @nytimes.com
    , Trump's U-turn followed a NATO meeting where top military officers discussed a compromise in which Denmark would give the US sovereignty over small pockets of Greenlandic to build military bases, similar to the British scheme in Cyprus.
  • MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    Though given what we know about how harmful these things are, what's the argument for allowing them for over 16s?

    There are things where society has concluded "you know, it's probably not that good for us, but it's not the end of the world and we'll accept that we can't stop them for everyone." Alcohol is in that category, and tobacco has historically been as well. (Rishi's law to gradually increase the age when you could buy cigarettes died with the election, but was resurrected by the Starmer government and is currently pootling around the Lords.)

    Is social media only a bit harmful like that, or is it more like classified drugs; so harmful that we shouldn't let adults near them either? I think I'm inclined to the latter. In part because the engineering that has gone into them is so ruthless and precise. And I would love to know what those tech megabrains were thinking of getting involved. It's a job, sure, and the instructions to be evil came from above. But "I was only obeying orders" doesn't particularly wash.
    All things can be harmful if taken to excess.

    Any food, or dieting, can be harmful to excess.
    Exercise can be harmful if taken to excess.

    Communication is not automatically harmful. It can be very beneficial and is linked, in moderation, to lower stress and lower mental health problems.

    Yes, some people get harms from social media. A great many people do not, and get a great deal in benefit from it too.

    Education, not elimination, is needed.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,866
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Cookie said:

    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?

    I spent Christmas in that area a few times, and we did the ferry from Newcastle with an overnight in Bonn, which is a lovely place.
    Bonn is a lovely city but not much of interest for kids.

    The Rhine and Mosel have lots of pretty small towns, and if the kids are interested in cars the Nurburgring is a brilliant stopover, as a spectator. Those German petrol heads don't mess around.
    This is true, but it's an evening stopover. Arrive, eat, sleep, breakfast, back on the road
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,209

    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    Though given what we know about how harmful these things are, what's the argument for allowing them for over 16s?

    There are things where society has concluded "you know, it's probably not that good for us, but it's not the end of the world and we'll accept that we can't stop them for everyone." Alcohol is in that category, and tobacco has historically been as well. (Rishi's law to gradually increase the age when you could buy cigarettes died with the election, but was resurrected by the Starmer government and is currently pootling around the Lords.)

    Is social media only a bit harmful like that, or is it more like classified drugs; so harmful that we shouldn't let adults near them either? I think I'm inclined to the latter. In part because the engineering that has gone into them is so ruthless and precise. And I would love to know what those tech megabrains were thinking of getting involved. It's a job, sure, and the instructions to be evil came from above. But "I was only obeying orders" doesn't particularly wash.
    All things can be harmful if taken to excess.

    Any food, or dieting, can be harmful to excess.
    Exercise can be harmful if taken to excess.

    Communication is not automatically harmful. It can be very beneficial and is linked, in moderation, to lower stress and lower mental health problems.

    Yes, some people get harms from social media. A great many people do not, and get a great deal in benefit from it too.

    Education, not elimination, is needed.
    I'm sorry but your categorisation of social media as simply "communication" is utterly naïve.
  • Scott_xP said:

    According to the
    @nytimes.com
    , Trump's U-turn followed a NATO meeting where top military officers discussed a compromise in which Denmark would give the US sovereignty over small pockets of Greenlandic to build military bases, similar to the British scheme in Cyprus.

    That was suggested by Mark Stone of Sky as the likely agreement
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,848

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    But not by many experts in Child health care nor by organisations like the NSPCC
    Yes there is evidence both ways, for example:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2026/jan/14/social-media-time-does-not-increase-teenagers-mental-health-problems-study?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,734

    MaxPB said:

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Pathetic illiberalism.
    I work in data, I have done for a pretty long time and I've had a long career in and adjacent to tech. I've led large data science teams who have worked on optimisation strategies for marketing and specifically social media. Even for third party advertisers the amount of influence we can have on people is truly terrifying.

    The malign influence social media has on children can't be overstated. The simplest and best measure is to get rid. The idea that social media networks don't already know the age of everyone on their platform even without verification is ridiculous and they use that information to serve awful negative spiral content to children and teenagers to keep them scrolling and monetised with ad clicks.

    Child suicide, child anxiety, adhd and many other preventable behavioural disorders are all linked to social media usage and even children who are merely social media adjacent (a kid with a parent that is a heavy user or had an older sibling that is a heavy user despite not having any accounts themselves) also see adverse outcomes.

    Call it illiberal but I don't see any solutions coming from anywhere else. I'd ban tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram, Facebook and Snapchat for under 16s overnight. The damage these big tech companies are doing to kids is irreparable and we need to act now.

    In a decade the narrative will be shocked that we ever allowed kids to have unrestricted access to social media for so long.

    Social media is this generation's smoking and it needs to be banned just the same as smoking was for children and properly policed.
    Though given what we know about how harmful these things are, what's the argument for allowing them for over 16s?

    There are things where society has concluded "you know, it's probably not that good for us, but it's not the end of the world and we'll accept that we can't stop them for everyone." Alcohol is in that category, and tobacco has historically been as well. (Rishi's law to gradually increase the age when you could buy cigarettes died with the election, but was resurrected by the Starmer government and is currently pootling around the Lords.)

    Is social media only a bit harmful like that, or is it more like classified drugs; so harmful that we shouldn't let adults near them either? I think I'm inclined to the latter. In part because the engineering that has gone into them is so ruthless and precise. And I would love to know what those tech megabrains were thinking of getting involved. It's a job, sure, and the instructions to be evil came from above. But "I was only obeying orders" doesn't particularly wash.
    There is strong evidence that the harm on mental health from social media is worse for children (including teenagers) than adults. So there is a quantum of harm argument for limiting the ban to children.

    Then there is the liberalism argument. There's lots of harmful things we permit adults to do. That argument is a lot weaker for children, where the government bans all manner of things until they are an adult (or close).

    What we should do is starting taxing social media, of the sort that is highly addictive, like we do alcohol or tobacco. And make the harm being addicted to them well known. Like alcohol, use in moderation if at all.

    If it is too hard to define what social media is, then simply write a list of apps into law and update as needed.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,595
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Cookie said:

    Hi pb brains trust - any views on the following:

    We (me, wife, three kids 16-11) are hoping to go from Manchester to Austria for a summer holiday. Would you:
    - overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam then drive with overnight stop in Germany (probably cheapest,can pack as much stuff as we want, but would take up two days travelling there and two days travelling back. If si, where would you stay?
    - fly then hire a car (surprisingly expenaive even with Easyjet but only two and a half hours to our destination from Munich)
    - train to Brussels then Brussels-Salzburg sleeper (I'd always wanted to travel that way but some reports are discouraging)
    - something else?

    I spent Christmas in that area a few times, and we did the ferry from Newcastle with an overnight in Bonn, which is a lovely place.
    Bonn is a lovely city but not much of interest for kids.

    The Rhine and Mosel have lots of pretty small towns, and if the kids are interested in cars the Nurburgring is a brilliant stopover, as a spectator. Those German petrol heads don't mess around.
    This is true, but it's an evening stopover. Arrive, eat, sleep, breakfast, back on the road
    Yes, I think what I'd be looking for is somewhere I could do exactly that, ideally including an hour's mooch before 'eat' to get a feel of an attractive European small city.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,866

    Scott_xP said:

    According to the
    @nytimes.com
    , Trump's U-turn followed a NATO meeting where top military officers discussed a compromise in which Denmark would give the US sovereignty over small pockets of Greenlandic to build military bases, similar to the British scheme in Cyprus.

    That was suggested by Mark Stone of Sky as the likely agreement
    Kinda sorta sounds a bit like another US base somewhere...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,217
    edited January 21

    Eabhal said:

    a

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
    No
    I followed it closely when proposed, argued and introduced in Australia. I can tell you the key piece of detail straight away - it’s not a ban on under sixteens having access to phones, devices or internet use - it’s merely a ban on platforms giving under sixteens accounts. The rest is still parenting.

    So where some children will have better quality of life, better quality education and self learning, other children will be deprived this, so I liken it to those parents who banned Rock n Roll in the house, believing they were doing good. Banning Rock n Roll was actual bizarre, bad parenting.

    And the real kicker here is the actual problem - predatory and addictive algorithms - problem applies to everyone, all ages, not just children. Where is the actual policy needed?
    I have already said the answer will be in the detail but there is overwhelming parental support

    One of my children and his wife is in a constant battle with their children over the time on line and also their peer pressure to keep in 24/7 touch including often overnight
    That's always the big problem - you can have well-meaning parents but if every other kid at school has an e-scooter (actually illegal to use) and that's the way they meet up pals, what can you do?

    What this legislation needs paired with is an extensive and high-quality public information campaign making it clear what is supposed to be normal and appropriate behaviour. That seems seriously lacking at the moment for some reason - particularly changes to things like the Highway Code. There's more to governance than passing laws.
    Peer pressure in teenagers is very much part of the problem, and there is no way parents can control their behaviour when they are together or communicating as I said sometimes overnight
    I disagree with that though. I grew up in rural Scotland; those hours playing COD with my friends all the way through my teenage years were important to reduce a sense of isolation, particularly for those living out on farms or in estate cottages. We had MSN chats (*nostalgia*) where we organised group trips to the river or into town for old-fashioned activities like getting drunk or going for a swim.

    There is a big problem here, as MaxPB eloquently describes, but pinning it down is really difficult. I do think the Australians have got the balance just about right (you're allowed simple messaging like whatsapp) but I can understand why people have reservations.
  • Eabhal said:

    a

    Conservative amendment on social media ban for under 16s backed by the Lords - 261 - 150

    Disgracefully authoritarian.
    Nanny state Tories. Where will it end?
    It is certainly a topic of conversation with our children who really struggle with their children's [16, 14, and 13] phone use both in school and elsewhere

    It is very much backed by them and childrens mental health charities
    So no benefits of learning and communication get lost?

    And there’s no other options to investigate and try first?
    It will all be in the detail
    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things, is exactly what is needed from opposition.

    Wrong footing government and showing you are leading on the popular agenda from opposition, and actually achieving things… by doing away with investigations and any consideration of inherent vice, without bothering with pilots schemes, without observing what happens in Australia as time passes, just diving straight in based on seeing something on morning television and told is hugely popular in voodoo polls, is exactly THE WRONG WAY to show you are ready again for power.

    Do you see my point?
    No
    I followed it closely when proposed, argued and introduced in Australia. I can tell you the key piece of detail straight away - it’s not a ban on under sixteens having access to phones, devices or internet use - it’s merely a ban on platforms giving under sixteens accounts. The rest is still parenting.

    So where some children will have better quality of life, better quality education and self learning, other children will be deprived this, so I liken it to those parents who banned Rock n Roll in the house, believing they were doing good. Banning Rock n Roll was actual bizarre, bad parenting.

    And the real kicker here is the actual problem - predatory and addictive algorithms - problem applies to everyone, all ages, not just children. Where is the actual policy needed?
    I have already said the answer will be in the detail but there is overwhelming parental support

    One of my children and his wife is in a constant battle with their children over the time on line and also their peer pressure to keep in 24/7 touch including often overnight
    That's always the big problem - you can have well-meaning parents but if every other kid at school has an e-scooter (actually illegal to use) and that's the way they meet up pals, what can you do?

    What this legislation needs paired with is an extensive and high-quality public information campaign making it clear what is supposed to be normal and appropriate behaviour. That seems seriously lacking at the moment for some reason - particularly changes to things like the Highway Code. There's more to governance than passing laws.
    Peer pressure in teenagers is very much part of the problem, and there is no way parents can control their behaviour when they are together or communicating as I said sometimes overnight
    Parents can put restrictions on devices and set controls, including locking devices overnight if required.

    My daughter has a phone with restrictions, including the restriction that I can see what apps she is using, that to install an app requires my consent (and we have consented to TikTok which she uses on rules my wife set). I can see how long she has spent on each app and set restrictions of time limits and time eg overnight or school hours where the device is locked.

    Poor behaviour can result in the device being locked as a punishment too.
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