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Sir Keir Starmer continues to use humour – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,886
edited 4:09PM in General
Sir Keir Starmer continues to use humour – politicalbetting.com

Things you don't expect to hear in PMQs…Starmer: "They had more positions in 14 years than the Kama Sutra. No wonder they're knackered."@TalkTV pic.twitter.com/doavMVZ8rc

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,625

    If winning with humour at PMQs was the secret to success, William Hague would have been PM for 10+ years.

    It's different for PMs, see the clip of Dave.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,785
    Taz said:

    His joke was a crass and stupid one especially in the week they’ve nailed their mast to going after X for images he’s happy to make seventies sitcom gags about sex. What’s it with the left and extreme right they’re obsessed with sex. Flagshaggers from the moronic left and everyone is a paedo from the moronic right.

    He’s inept.

    I just cannot agree that our PM using a sexual inneudo in the present climate is appropriate

    It is childish, and I am not at all sure his female mps will be impressed
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,912
    FPT

    The FBI raided the home of a Washington Post reporter early Wednesday in what the newspaper called a “highly unusual and aggressive” move by law enforcement.

    Agents descended on the Virginia home of Hannah Natanson as part of an investigation into a government contractor accused of illegally retaining classified government materials. The Post is “reviewing and monitoring the situation”, a source at the newspaper told the Guardian.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jan/14/fbi-raid-washington-post-hannah-natanson

    Irony is dead latest:

    "illegally retaining classified government materials."
    Maybe they got the idea Gordon Brown - sending armed police to arrest opposition politicians is a step beyond the journalists, though.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,271

    Taz said:

    His joke was a crass and stupid one especially in the week they’ve nailed their mast to going after X for images he’s happy to make seventies sitcom gags about sex. What’s it with the left and extreme right they’re obsessed with sex. Flagshaggers from the moronic left and everyone is a paedo from the moronic right.

    He’s inept.

    I just cannot agree that our PM using a sexual inneudo in the present climate is appropriate

    It is childish, and I am not at all sure his female mps will be impressed
    Lots of people don't like smut, just as loads of people don't use or like public use of four letter words. It's a non-barking dog so easily missed. I suspect they all vote though.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,448
    edited 4:31PM
    Taz said:

    His joke was a crass and stupid one especially in the week they’ve nailed their mast to going after X for images he’s happy to make seventies sitcom gags about sex. What’s it with the left and extreme right they’re obsessed with sex. Flagshaggers from the moronic left and everyone is a paedo from the moronic right.

    He’s inept.

    Scumbag lefties do have some compelling evidence that at least one member of the moronic right might be a paedo. I've seen the more subdued photos and read the testimony of Katie Johnson.

    Can anyone understand why Trump has removed funding from some paediatric charity?
    Paediatric/ paedophile is probably a close enough spelling for a barely literate orange baboon.

    He'll be banning pedalos next.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    edited 4:33PM
    I am not that particularly bothered by the knock about stuff at PMQs. We have of course in the past had absolute ridicilious pearl clutching when Cameron said calm down dear etc.

    But not sure somebody who pitched himself as Sir No Slogan Boring No Funday Forensic Detail Enough of Boris Bullshit doing blue gags is really on brand.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,281
    I think that the only comical thing that Starmer could manage at PMQs is if he were to answer a Farage question with “EXTERMINATE”, in his natural voice
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,117

    Taz said:

    His joke was a crass and stupid one especially in the week they’ve nailed their mast to going after X for images he’s happy to make seventies sitcom gags about sex. What’s it with the left and extreme right they’re obsessed with sex. Flagshaggers from the moronic left and everyone is a paedo from the moronic right.

    He’s inept.

    I just cannot agree that our PM using a sexual inneudo in the present climate is appropriate

    It is childish, and I am not at all sure his female mps will be impressed
    The joke appears to be gender neutral.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,760
    edited 4:42PM
    Marks for effort (on the humour) but not a patch on Boris Johnson. Remember when he called Starmer "Sir Crasherooni Snoozefest"? LOL!. You couldn't risk sipping a coffee when he was doing PMQs because you'd end up spraying it down your front. He was that funny.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,917

    Taz said:

    His joke was a crass and stupid one especially in the week they’ve nailed their mast to going after X for images he’s happy to make seventies sitcom gags about sex. What’s it with the left and extreme right they’re obsessed with sex. Flagshaggers from the moronic left and everyone is a paedo from the moronic right.

    He’s inept.

    I just cannot agree that our PM using a sexual inneudo in the present climate is appropriate

    It is childish, and I am not at all sure his female mps will be impressed
    The joke appears to be gender neutral.
    Maybe that’s why it appeals to,Lib Dems who don’t even know what a woman is ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354
    edited 4:43PM

    Taz said:

    His joke was a crass and stupid one especially in the week they’ve nailed their mast to going after X for images he’s happy to make seventies sitcom gags about sex. What’s it with the left and extreme right they’re obsessed with sex. Flagshaggers from the moronic left and everyone is a paedo from the moronic right.

    He’s inept.

    I just cannot agree that our PM using a sexual inneudo in the present climate is appropriate

    It is childish, and I am not at all sure his female mps will be impressed
    It may be a little crass but if the joke would fly on the Simpsons it's sufficiently inoffensive as to pass muster and i cannot imagine his MPs, male and female, are so fragile as to claim upset. But it's not a strength of his.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354
    kinabalu said:

    Marks for effort (on the humour) but not a patch on Boris Johnson. Remember when he called Starmer "Sir Crasherooni Snoozefest"? LOL!. You couldn't risk sipping a coffee when he was doing PMQs because you'd end up spraying it down your front. He was that funny.

    Boris could be funny but i dont think joke telling was really his thing to be honest. It was more in the mannerism, and less amusing in high office (and he could be more serious when he wanted).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,312

    I think that the only comical thing that Starmer could manage at PMQs is if he were to answer a Farage question with “EXTERMINATE”, in his natural voice

    EXCRUCIATE more like :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354

    I am not that particularly bothered by the knock about stuff at PMQs. We have of course in the past had absolute ridicilious pearl clutching when Cameron said calm down dear etc.

    But not sure somebody who pitched himself as Sir No Slogan Boring No Funday Forensic Detail Enough of Boris Bullshit doing blue gags is really on brand.

    Trying to seem more likeable perhaps. MPs are often bright and amusing, but those on tv a lot are usually very on message and clamp down on displays of overt personality (one reason more maverick figures are iften liked), as seen when they quit and reveal themselves to be more intetesting.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Marks for effort (on the humour) but not a patch on Boris Johnson. Remember when he called Starmer "Sir Crasherooni Snoozefest"? LOL!. You couldn't risk sipping a coffee when he was doing PMQs because you'd end up spraying it down your front. He was that funny.

    Boris could be funny but i dont think joke telling was really his thing to be honest. It was more in the mannerism, and less amusing in high office (and he could be more serious when he wanted).
    Boris was generally very poor at PMQs (both on a technical level, not surprising as didn't do his homework but also banter). This was especially true post his dicing with death via COVID.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,870

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Marks for effort (on the humour) but not a patch on Boris Johnson. Remember when he called Starmer "Sir Crasherooni Snoozefest"? LOL!. You couldn't risk sipping a coffee when he was doing PMQs because you'd end up spraying it down your front. He was that funny.

    Boris could be funny but i dont think joke telling was really his thing to be honest. It was more in the mannerism, and less amusing in high office (and he could be more serious when he wanted).
    Boris was generally very poor at PMQs (both on a technical level, not surprising as didn't do his homework but also banter). This was especially true post his dicing with death via COVID.
    ...among other things
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    edited 4:53PM
    Has Chief Constable Copilot not gone yet?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,424
    edited 4:55PM
    Taz said:

    His joke was a crass and stupid one especially in the week they’ve nailed their mast to going after X for images he’s happy to make seventies sitcom gags about sex. What’s it with the left and extreme right they’re obsessed with sex. Flagshaggers from the moronic left and everyone is a paedo from the moronic right.

    He’s inept.

    Thats unfair. They are not all paedos, some prefer the comfort of a lovely sofa.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,448

    Has Chief Constable Copilot not gone yet?

    What if he's actually one of the good guys? A Freemason, a Rotary Club fundraiser and branch Chairman of his local Conservative Association.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,625
    edited 5:02PM

    What a sad bunch of pearl clutchers.

    What of their political heroes? Johnson was famed for effing and jeffing in cabinet meetings. Cameron made quite a clever joke about tweets and t**tS. Trump yesterday told a Ford worker to f*** off and what of Farage? Excused as a blameless child and merely schoolyard banter when he didn't so much as cuss as racially abuse people he didn't like.

    What's wrong with you all?

    I agree, if you don’t like smut then you’re not British.

    We are the nation of Chaucer.

    I know it will be a shock to PBers that I love smut/innuendos.

    You just know the pearl clutchers would be banging a different tune if Penny Mordaunt was Tory leader, she loved a good innuendo.

    https://youtu.be/hvLcYUXBBuc?si=0tCtkSdZuRZkMT1p

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,760
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Marks for effort (on the humour) but not a patch on Boris Johnson. Remember when he called Starmer "Sir Crasherooni Snoozefest"? LOL!. You couldn't risk sipping a coffee when he was doing PMQs because you'd end up spraying it down your front. He was that funny.

    Boris could be funny but i dont think joke telling was really his thing to be honest. It was more in the mannerism, and less amusing in high office (and he could be more serious when he wanted).
    Funny as a blocked toilet imo - but I accept it's a matter of taste.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,870
    Hyde:

    If you missed this, the former mayfly Conservative chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has switched gravy trains. If that sounds like the sort of death-defying stunt Tom Cruise might break his ankle doing in the Mission: Impossible franchise, it’s nothing like as exhilaratingly watchable. The Tory gravy train has ground to a halt, and Farage will stop his Reform train even between stations to pick up any old has-been you may remember from episodes such as “deathbed Boris Johnson appointments” or “my horses are warmer than pensioners”

    Now, take Nadhim Zahawi, who spent Monday’s unveiling press conference making much of the fact that a successful businessman such as himself could have chosen to enjoy a “comfortable retirement”, but instead is joining Reform, apparently as an act of national philanthropy. [Yet] Zahawi accepted more from the taxpayer in energy costs for his second home than any other MP. He was forced to repay those, as he was forced to settle his unpaid bills with HMRC after concealing the investigation into his affairs led to him having to resign as chancellor.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,912

    Has Chief Constable Copilot not gone yet?

    What if he's actually one of the good guys? A Freemason, a Rotary Club fundraiser and branch Chairman of his local Conservative Association.
    He’s a lying liar. Who lies.

    After we line the first couple of miles of the Appian Way…

    #NU10K
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,448
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Marks for effort (on the humour) but not a patch on Boris Johnson. Remember when he called Starmer "Sir Crasherooni Snoozefest"? LOL!. You couldn't risk sipping a coffee when he was doing PMQs because you'd end up spraying it down your front. He was that funny.

    Boris could be funny but i dont think joke telling was really his thing to be honest. It was more in the mannerism, and less amusing in high office (and he could be more serious when he wanted).
    It's the way you tell 'em.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,312

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Marks for effort (on the humour) but not a patch on Boris Johnson. Remember when he called Starmer "Sir Crasherooni Snoozefest"? LOL!. You couldn't risk sipping a coffee when he was doing PMQs because you'd end up spraying it down your front. He was that funny.

    Boris could be funny but i dont think joke telling was really his thing to be honest. It was more in the mannerism, and less amusing in high office (and he could be more serious when he wanted).
    Boris was generally very poor at PMQs (both on a technical level, not surprising as didn't do his homework but also banter). This was especially true post his dicing with death via COVID.
    "With friends like these, who needs Yemenis?"
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,602
    edited 5:16PM
    Scott_xP said:
    Insert "They're the same picture" meme here (when Trump is President)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,921
    Starmer obviously has a new scriptwriter who can write jokes
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,312
    edited 5:18PM

    Has Chief Constable Copilot not gone yet?

    What if he's actually one of the good guys? A Freemason, a Rotary Club fundraiser and branch Chairman of his local Conservative Association.
    He’s a lying liar. Who lies.

    After we line the first couple of miles of the Appian Way…

    #NU10K
    I always lie. In fact, I am lying to you now.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,312

    What a sad bunch of pearl clutchers.

    What of their political heroes? Johnson was famed for effing and jeffing in cabinet meetings. Cameron made quite a clever joke about tweets and t**tS. Trump yesterday told a Ford worker to f*** off and what of Farage? Excused as a blameless child and merely schoolyard banter when he didn't so much as cuss as racially abuse people he didn't like.

    What's wrong with you all?

    I agree, if you don’t like smut then you’re not British.

    We are the nation of Chaucer.

    I know it will be a shock to PBers that I love smut/innuendos.

    You just know the pearl clutchers would be banging a different tune if Penny Mordaunt was Tory leader, she loved a good innuendo.

    https://youtu.be/hvLcYUXBBuc?si=0tCtkSdZuRZkMT1p

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2N0TkfrQhY
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,533
    On the chief constable of west mids, I bet he’s feeling seriously annoyed. As far as he is concerned, he will think he’s done what the powers that be wanted. No serious trouble and the Islamists in Birmingham didn’t get called out. Wonder if he has a few nuggets of information to share if he is sacked.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,196
    Nobody will surpass William Hague in the use of humour. He demolished Blair and Brown in the same speech.

    Fat lot of good it did him.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1073698/tony-blair-william-hague-house-commons-brexit-uk-latest-jeremy-corbyn-spt
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer obviously has a new scriptwriter who can write jokes

    If we weren't all looking in the blue book for inspiration this afternoon, I'd say it's always better to get a professional in.

    But there's another thing. In slightly different ways, Starmer, Kemi and Nigel both take themselves very seriously. And the best way to undermine such people is with a joke at their expense. It doesn't even need to be a good one.
    Fixed for you...
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,322

    Nobody will surpass William Hague in the use of humour. He demolished Blair and Brown in the same speech.

    Fat lot of good it did him.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1073698/tony-blair-william-hague-house-commons-brexit-uk-latest-jeremy-corbyn-spt

    I don’t know: he became Foreign Secretary less than two years later.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,912

    Has Chief Constable Copilot not gone yet?

    What if he's actually one of the good guys? A Freemason, a Rotary Club fundraiser and branch Chairman of his local Conservative Association.
    He’s a lying liar. Who lies.

    After we line the first couple of miles of the Appian Way…

    #NU10K
    I always lie. In fact, I am lying to you now.
    Both you and Chief Constable Copilot come from Crete? Small world.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,257
    edited 5:52PM

    Has Chief Constable Copilot not gone yet?

    What if he's actually one of the good guys? A Freemason, a Rotary Club fundraiser and branch Chairman of his local Conservative Association.
    He’s a lying liar. Who lies.

    After we line the first couple of miles of the Appian Way…

    #NU10K
    Cycled it a couple of years ago. Sore on the backside but if you were able to line it, it would be much more comfortable.


  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,163
    JohnO said:

    Nobody will surpass William Hague in the use of humour. He demolished Blair and Brown in the same speech.

    Fat lot of good it did him.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1073698/tony-blair-william-hague-house-commons-brexit-uk-latest-jeremy-corbyn-spt

    I don’t know: he became Foreign Secretary less than two years later.
    Hasn't he got a good gig doing the voices in Wallace and Gromit?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,000
    Polling average which includes the YouGov one putting Ref on 24%.

    Ref 30.1%
    Con 19.4%
    Lab 18.5%
    Grn 13.3%
    LD 12.8%
    SNP 2.7%

    https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,271

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,760

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer obviously has a new scriptwriter who can write jokes

    If we weren't all looking in the blue book for inspiration this afternoon, I'd say it's always better to get a professional in.

    But there's another thing. In slightly different ways, Kemi and Nigel both take themselves very seriously. And the best way to undermine such people is with a joke at their expense. It doesn't even need to be a good one.
    Farage seems especially brittle to me. He struggles to stay civilised under pressure. There have been quite a few examples recently.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership Council.

    They call on West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner, Simon Foster, to sack the West Midlands Police chief.

    Both groups say they "welcome" Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood's expression of "no confidence" in Craig Guildford.

    They say the report from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) into the issue has "confirmed our long-held concerns" that the force "sought evidence that supported a predetermined conclusion", and failed to "engage with the local Jewish community".

    They call on Foster to "exercise his authority" and dismiss Guildford "without delay".
  • TresTres Posts: 3,403

    Taz said:

    His joke was a crass and stupid one especially in the week they’ve nailed their mast to going after X for images he’s happy to make seventies sitcom gags about sex. What’s it with the left and extreme right they’re obsessed with sex. Flagshaggers from the moronic left and everyone is a paedo from the moronic right.

    He’s inept.

    I just cannot agree that our PM using a sexual inneudo in the present climate is appropriate

    It is childish, and I am not at all sure his female mps will be impressed
    ah tories pearl clutching time again
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,533
    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,271
    Andy_JS said:

    Polling average which includes the YouGov one putting Ref on 24%.

    Ref 30.1%
    Con 19.4%
    Lab 18.5%
    Grn 13.3%
    LD 12.8%
    SNP 2.7%

    https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

    Fascinating. A thing to note: The right of centre non-Tory vote is 30.1%, out of 49.5% The left of centre non- Labour vote is 28.8% (+ add a bit for PC, Jezbollah, Islamic indies) out of 47.3%+ a bit. That is, more or less identical.

    Some will interpret this identity as being good for Labour - their opposition is split. Some as good for the Tories - they only have one, very fragile, other party to overcome.

    On the whole I go with the second view. Labour are in bigger trouble than the Tories despite their identical situation.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,226

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer obviously has a new scriptwriter who can write jokes

    If we weren't all looking in the blue book for inspiration this afternoon, I'd say it's always better to get a professional in.

    But there's another thing. In slightly different ways, Starmer, Kemi and Nigel both take themselves very seriously. And the best way to undermine such people is with a joke at their expense. It doesn't even need to be a good one.
    Fixed for you...
    Fair point, and it's a route open to the opposition, if they can find a tame gag-writer.

    But in terms of delivering the material... Starmer is crap. But I suspect that Kemi'n'Nige are probably worse.

    In the land of the blind, the blind bloke with a one-eyed guide dog is King. At least for now.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,403
    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,271
    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    Quite possible. But again, those with power over the matter are going to be much slower to draw conclusions that those assisting from the side, unless of course they have parliamentary privilege.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,392
    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    edited 6:11PM
    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,833

    the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership Council.

    They call on West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner, Simon Foster, to sack the West Midlands Police chief.

    Both groups say they "welcome" Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood's expression of "no confidence" in Craig Guildford.

    They say the report from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) into the issue has "confirmed our long-held concerns" that the force "sought evidence that supported a predetermined conclusion", and failed to "engage with the local Jewish community".

    They call on Foster to "exercise his authority" and dismiss Guildford "without delay".

    Foster has himself already been sacked by Starmer/Mahmood following their decision to abolish PCCs. He may delight in taking absolutely no notice of Mahmood.

    I think that there is a fair chance that Foster ends up by announcing that he is sacking Labour and serving out the remainder of his term as an independent PCC or even as a Green PCC.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,403

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    edited 6:15PM
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,403
    edited 6:17PM

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    edited 6:19PM
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this.
    I always hoped we could hold ourselves and our institutions to have higher standards than swamp land. Recent history hasn't been on a great trajectory but perhaps we can turn the corner on this.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,917
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer obviously has a new scriptwriter who can write jokes

    He just needs someone who knows how to deliver them.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,785
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,319

    Nobody will surpass William Hague in the use of humour. He demolished Blair and Brown in the same speech.

    Fat lot of good it did him.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1073698/tony-blair-william-hague-house-commons-brexit-uk-latest-jeremy-corbyn-spt

    Probably the best speech in the Commons since the war.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,403

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,921
    edited 6:26PM
    JohnO said:

    Nobody will surpass William Hague in the use of humour. He demolished Blair and Brown in the same speech.

    Fat lot of good it did him.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1073698/tony-blair-william-hague-house-commons-brexit-uk-latest-jeremy-corbyn-spt

    I don’t know: he became Foreign Secretary less than two years later.
    Hague also showed the same lack of political cunning Rishi did.

    Both academically brilliant, firsts from Oxford and both had successful careers in business and finance before election as MPs.

    However if Hague had any sense he would have backed Michael Howard in 1997 to be Tory leader as he originally planned rather than run himself. It would then have been Howard who would have lost heavily in 2001 not him and Hague not IDS would have won the 2001 Tory leadership and Hague not Howard would have led the Tories in 2005 when the Tories made reasonable net seat gains. Hague, being much younger than Howard, could then have stayed Tory leader and taken on an unpopular Brown at the next GE with Cameron becoming his Foreign Secretary in 2010 rather than the reverse.

    Rishi too should have remained loyal to Boris in 2022, Boris would then have lost but kept the Conservatives over 200 MPs with Reform still next to nowhere rather than getting 14% as they did against Rishi and Truss would never have had the chance for her PM disaster. Rishi would then have been ideally placed to replace a defeated Boris as Tory leader in late 2024 and would likely be Conservative leader now not Kemi and Rishi would now likely have a big poll lead over the unpopular Starmer and his government
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,870
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Polling average which includes the YouGov one putting Ref on 24%.

    Ref 30.1%
    Con 19.4%
    Lab 18.5%
    Grn 13.3%
    LD 12.8%
    SNP 2.7%

    https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

    Fascinating. A thing to note: The right of centre non-Tory vote is 30.1%, out of 49.5% The left of centre non- Labour vote is 28.8% (+ add a bit for PC, Jezbollah, Islamic indies) out of 47.3%+ a bit. That is, more or less identical.

    Some will interpret this identity as being good for Labour - their opposition is split. Some as good for the Tories - they only have one, very fragile, other party to overcome.

    On the whole I go with the second view. Labour are in bigger trouble than the Tories despite their identical situation.

    Mostly because they have far more to lose
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,870
    edited 6:26PM
    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    Whether it’s elections or interviews, it’s all too easy to fall for the candidate with the best presentational skills, overlooking the rather weak correlation those have with the ability to make good judgments and actually get things done.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,448
    Andy_JS said:

    Polling average which includes the YouGov one putting Ref on 24%.

    Ref 30.1%
    Con 19.4%
    Lab 18.5%
    Grn 13.3%
    LD 12.8%
    SNP 2.7%

    https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

    And the FoN which has Labour on 14 and Green on, oh I don't know?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,912
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,392
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    Whether it’s elections or interviews, it’s all too easy to fall for the candidate with the best presentational skills, overlooking the rather weak correlation those have with the ability to make good judgments and actually get things done.
    This is true, but I'd rather dispute that its the case in my views above.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,403

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
    Hillsborough was 96 deaths, this is 96 gallons of green ink.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,912
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
    Hillsborough was 96 deaths, this is 96 gallons of green ink.
    It all lying.

    This is the point that @Cyclefree and others have been trying to make. Once the fish rots, it’s rotten.

    If they lie on a report like this, then they will lie again and again.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,448

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
    Maybe it was simply a misinformed error. You lot were quite content to give Johnson the benefit of the doubt until his 163rd example of misleading Parliament since 2019.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,602
    Brace

    "Reuters has reported that Donald Trump appears to have decided on a military strike against Iran, with action potentially coming within the next 24 hours.

    Two European officials told the news agency that US military intervention appeared likely, with one saying it could take place within the next day.

    An Israeli official also said it appeared Trump had decided to intervene, although the scope and timing of any strike had yet to be made clear.
    "

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2026/jan/14/iran-protests-live-updates-trump-us-action-death-toll-protester-executions-erfan-soltani
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354
    edited 6:42PM
    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Them being a bunch of wrong uns wouldn't excuse basing decisions on faulty intelligence, and then misleading MPs about the nature of that intelligence, intentionally or otherwise.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,281
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
    Hillsborough was 96 deaths, this is 96 gallons of green ink.
    The report that concluded Maccabi fans should be banned does seem to be have been written with an Islamist pen; green ink may be favoured
  • TresTres Posts: 3,403

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
    Hillsborough was 96 deaths, this is 96 gallons of green ink.
    The report that concluded Maccabi fans should be banned does seem to be have been written with an Islamist pen; green ink may be favoured
    but how does an inclusion of a fictional game in East London passing off without incident support such a decision?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
    Maybe it was simply a misinformed error. You lot were quite content to give Johnson the benefit of the doubt until his 163rd example of misleading Parliament since 2019.
    Well I wasn't. The Chief Constable was probably misinformed by those beneath him, but that's not much of a defence from the local constabulary. Indeed, they may now want him to go in hopes of avoiding a deeper look at why they compiled 'intelligence' that way, and if their standards are lax in other more critical areas.

    That's the problem with such situations, their own initial defence was they were incompetent at googling things, so it's hard to have confidence in the organisation even if the Chief carries the bag as the man ultimately responsible for his service.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,535
    edited 6:42PM
    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    Cameron went, leaving the country in an utter mess, precisely because he was not very good. Not very good at all.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    Whether it’s elections or interviews, it’s all too easy to fall for the candidate with the best presentational skills, overlooking the rather weak correlation those have with the ability to make good judgments and actually get things done.
    However, people sometimes overcorrect and think that a lack of presentational skills indicates good judgement and ability.

    Brown's team undermined him in that regard. I recall one of the debates when he'd done ok, not as slick as the others perhaps, but his media defenders were in such overdrive about how he was substance not style that it made him look worse than he'd actually been.

    And of course when someone does have style they never claim that means they have no substance, as they imply of any opponent who is better at style than them.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,709
    edited 6:47PM
    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
    Maybe it was simply a misinformed error. You lot were quite content to give Johnson the benefit of the doubt until his 163rd example of misleading Parliament since 2019.
    Well I wasn't. The Chief Constable was probably misinformed by those beneath him, but that's not much of a defence from the local constabulary. Indeed, they may now want him to go in hopes of avoiding a deeper look at why they compiled 'intelligence' that way, and if their standards are lax in other more critical areas.

    That's the problem with such situations, their own initial defence was they were incompetent at googling things, so it's hard to have confidence in the organisation even if the Chief carries the bag as the man ultimately responsible for his service.
    I don't really buy that.

    It seems to me they started with a conclusion and got AI (badly) to write it up for them.

    Even the AI vs. Google thing from his testimony - it may (or may not) be a trivial distinction, but it's still a flat out, flagrant lie. That alone is surely sackable.
  • novanova Posts: 927
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Polling average which includes the YouGov one putting Ref on 24%.

    Ref 30.1%
    Con 19.4%
    Lab 18.5%
    Grn 13.3%
    LD 12.8%
    SNP 2.7%

    https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

    Fascinating. A thing to note: The right of centre non-Tory vote is 30.1%, out of 49.5% The left of centre non- Labour vote is 28.8% (+ add a bit for PC, Jezbollah, Islamic indies) out of 47.3%+ a bit. That is, more or less identical.

    Some will interpret this identity as being good for Labour - their opposition is split. Some as good for the Tories - they only have one, very fragile, other party to overcome.

    On the whole I go with the second view. Labour are in bigger trouble than the Tories despite their identical situation.

    Wouldn't you need to take into account the anti-Reform vote? The figures on the left and right may be close, but the left side appear to be a lot more flexible in terms of who they'll vote for at a general election.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer obviously has a new scriptwriter who can write jokes

    If we weren't all looking in the blue book for inspiration this afternoon, I'd say it's always better to get a professional in.

    But there's another thing. In slightly different ways, Kemi and Nigel both take themselves very seriously. And the best way to undermine such people is with a joke at their expense. It doesn't even need to be a good one.
    Farage seems especially brittle to me. He struggles to stay civilised under pressure. There have been quite a few examples recently.
    Reminds me a bit of Corbyn, who could get quite pissy at times. Farage is more prone to lashing out in rather stock fashion however.

    He has been good in the past at going to ground for awhile, but he cannot really manage that now his party is leading in the polls and he really does have a chance of becoming PM.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354

    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner Simon Foster has commented following calls to sack the West Midlands Police Chief Constable Craig Guildford.

    As a reminder, Foster is the only person that has the power to sack Guildford. Earlier the home secretary said she no longer has confidence in the chief constable

    In a statement, he says:

    “I acknowledge, recognise and understand the significant strength of feeling that is shared by many people, including myself, in connection with this contentious issue.

    “His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has written a letter to the Home Secretary to set out his ‘preliminary views’, in relation to the match assessment and categorisation carried out by West Midlands Police around the Maccabi Tel Aviv v’s Aston Villa fixture on 6 November 2025.

    “I have been sent that letter having had no sight of, or briefing on, its contents before today. I must now give it careful and detailed consideration.

    “The letter is not the final HMICFRS report. It describes how the Chief Inspector’s views may ‘develop or change’ as more information is gathered.

    “I have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons and the questions that followed.

    “I await the Home Affairs Select Committee report.

    "It is my statutory duty to hold the Chief Constable to account for the totality of policing in the West Midlands.

    "In order to give all these issues full and proper consideration, I will be taking this matter to a meeting of my Accountability and Governance Board, held in public, on Tuesday 27 January 2026 and asking questions of the Chief Constable.

    "In consideration of these matters, it is vital that all involved act in accordance with due process and the law at all times.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c394zlr8e12t

    It's a lot easier for people (like the Home Sec here) to say 'sack someone now' if it happens to lie in someone else's gift to do so. As for the person who has to make the decision (like when it is the Home Sec's turn) the first thing they actually have to do is consider how this government and parliament has left them WRT the trivial matter of 'the rule of law' and how to painstakingly apply it to the facts of this case because if you get it wrong you will lose in court and be execrated for incompetence by the same people who shout at you now.

    Forget resignations/sackings, I think crimes have likely been committed.
    it's a complete nothing burger of hysteria, a load of politicians gonna be left looking foolish the next time the maccabi hooligans kick off
    Its a nothing burger that a senior police officer lied to MPs using fake AI content to justify a decision...then lied about having ever used AI....its a view....
    that appears to be 1 sentence in a report that was ignored.
    Its the cover up that gets you. You can't have very senior police officers (or any plod) lying about evidence then lying about lying to boot.
    Maybe in the pre-Trump world, but right now I'm failing to give much of a shit about this. Of course the grandstanding committees and poundshop pundits love it because they get to clutch at pearls.
    Is Mahmood clutchimg her pearls by her statement today ?
    Just the latest in a long line of Labour Home Secretary who thinks she has to appear meaner than the tories.
    So your ok with Police officers lying to Parliament and submitting reports full of bullshit and lying about it.

    Hillsborough, eh?

    Just because you agree with the result doesn’t make it better.
    Maybe it was simply a misinformed error. You lot were quite content to give Johnson the benefit of the doubt until his 163rd example of misleading Parliament since 2019.
    Well I wasn't. The Chief Constable was probably misinformed by those beneath him, but that's not much of a defence from the local constabulary. Indeed, they may now want him to go in hopes of avoiding a deeper look at why they compiled 'intelligence' that way, and if their standards are lax in other more critical areas.

    That's the problem with such situations, their own initial defence was they were incompetent at googling things, so it's hard to have confidence in the organisation even if the Chief carries the bag as the man ultimately responsible for his service.
    I don't really buy that.

    It seems to me they started with a conclusion and got AI (badly) to write it up for them.

    Even the AI vs. Google thing from his testimony - it may (or may not) be a trivial distinction, but it's still a flat out, flagrant lie. That alone is surely sackable.
    I think that's a distinct possibility. My suggestion was there would presumably have been others closer to the decision-making than the chief (however involved he was overall I doubt he knew how the intelligence was compiled apart from being told), and those people would probably prefer he fall on his sword in a (vain) hope that it is considered not worth delving into further.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    edited 6:53PM
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer obviously has a new scriptwriter who can write jokes

    If we weren't all looking in the blue book for inspiration this afternoon, I'd say it's always better to get a professional in.

    But there's another thing. In slightly different ways, Kemi and Nigel both take themselves very seriously. And the best way to undermine such people is with a joke at their expense. It doesn't even need to be a good one.
    Farage seems especially brittle to me. He struggles to stay civilised under pressure. There have been quite a few examples recently.
    Reminds me a bit of Corbyn, who could get quite pissy at times. Farage is more prone to lashing out in rather stock fashion however.

    He has been good in the past at going to ground for awhile, but he cannot really manage that now his party is leading in the polls and he really does have a chance of becoming PM.
    The funniest one is when Team Corbyn organised for a very very sympathic "journalist"* to follow them ;long term and Jezza got so pissy when said journalist asked basically one question that wasn't the most softball of softball, they banned the journalist completely and he turned into Jezza what a wanker.

    * they were so unimpartial, you can't really call them a journalist. They basically start the piece with Jezza, big fan.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354
    CatMan said:

    Brace

    "Reuters has reported that Donald Trump appears to have decided on a military strike against Iran, with action potentially coming within the next 24 hours.

    Two European officials told the news agency that US military intervention appeared likely, with one saying it could take place within the next day.

    An Israeli official also said it appeared Trump had decided to intervene, although the scope and timing of any strike had yet to be made clear.
    "

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2026/jan/14/iran-protests-live-updates-trump-us-action-death-toll-protester-executions-erfan-soltani

    Another snatch and grab perhaps, start storing dictators in their own cell block in New York?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,715
    I see the GoFundMe for the Ford Autoworker who was suspended from his job for calling Trump "a Pedophile Protector" is doing well and is now approaching $400 000.

    He will have enough soon to build his own ballroom.

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/tj-sabula-is-a-patriot
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,392

    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    Cameron went, leaving the country in an utter mess, precisely because he was not very good. Not very good at all.
    Perhaps. And I really thought he could have chosen more wisely than Osborne as Chancellor - he was really quite bad in my view. But nonetheless I still think I'd have liked to see Cameron stay on through Brexit. A big part of the chaos was him choosing not to do so.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,709
    nova said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Polling average which includes the YouGov one putting Ref on 24%.

    Ref 30.1%
    Con 19.4%
    Lab 18.5%
    Grn 13.3%
    LD 12.8%
    SNP 2.7%

    https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

    Fascinating. A thing to note: The right of centre non-Tory vote is 30.1%, out of 49.5% The left of centre non- Labour vote is 28.8% (+ add a bit for PC, Jezbollah, Islamic indies) out of 47.3%+ a bit. That is, more or less identical.

    Some will interpret this identity as being good for Labour - their opposition is split. Some as good for the Tories - they only have one, very fragile, other party to overcome.

    On the whole I go with the second view. Labour are in bigger trouble than the Tories despite their identical situation.

    Wouldn't you need to take into account the anti-Reform vote? The figures on the left and right may be close, but the left side appear to be a lot more flexible in terms of who they'll vote for at a general election.
    In Caerphilly, the Tory vote folded very nicely into the Reform vote. There just weren't enough right wingers to secure victory.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,440
    edited 6:57PM
    Foxy said:

    I see the GoFundMe for the Ford Autoworker who was suspended from his job for calling Trump "a Pedophile Protector" is doing well and is now approaching $400 000.

    He will have enough soon to build his own ballroom.

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/tj-sabula-is-a-patriot

    I never use gofundme. I always wonder is it just a pledge system i.e. people can say today I will donate $100, but you settle up later when the funding period closes? If that is the case, I wonder how much money actually ends up being raised in their very political ones.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,448
    Foxy said:

    I see the GoFundMe for the Ford Autoworker who was suspended from his job for calling Trump "a Pedophile Protector" is doing well and is now approaching $400 000.

    He will have enough soon to build his own ballroom.

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/tj-sabula-is-a-patriot

    He'll have a more profitable year than the FoMoCo.

    The biggest Ford dealer group in South Wales CEM Day ( Ford for over100 years) becomes a Geely and Chery dealer.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,809

    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    Cameron went, leaving the country in an utter mess, precisely because he was not very good. Not very good at all.
    I'm not a fan of Cameron at all, and I've criticised his strategy over the Brexit referendum heavily in the past - criticisms you could extend to all three referendums under his governments - and there are many more criticisms of him to make besides, but when you compare him to the PMs who have followed his ability to talk to the public, to make a political case, to lead a Cabinet of capable (if, I might argue, misguided) ministers, put him very far ahead of those that have followed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,147
    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    I think the trouble with Cameron was that he contracted out all his strategic thinking to Osborne, who got it wrong.

    As both PM and foreign secretary he was operationally effective.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,809

    Foxy said:

    I see the GoFundMe for the Ford Autoworker who was suspended from his job for calling Trump "a Pedophile Protector" is doing well and is now approaching $400 000.

    He will have enough soon to build his own ballroom.

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/tj-sabula-is-a-patriot

    I never use gofundme. I always wonder is it just a pledge system i.e. people can say today I will donate $100, but you settle up later when the funding period closes? If that is the case, I wonder how much money actually ends up being raised in their very political ones.
    I'm pretty sure you hand over the money to gofundme at the time you pledge it. My main concern is often over who has launched the appeal and will the money actually reach the claimed recipient.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,709

    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    Cameron went, leaving the country in an utter mess, precisely because he was not very good. Not very good at all.
    I'm not a fan of Cameron at all, and I've criticised his strategy over the Brexit referendum heavily in the past - criticisms you could extend to all three referendums under his governments - and there are many more criticisms of him to make besides, but when you compare him to the PMs who have followed his ability to talk to the public, to make a political case, to lead a Cabinet of capable (if, I might argue, misguided) ministers, put him very far ahead of those that have followed.
    Judged on his own measures of success - keeping things much the same, being a figurehead, doing a bit of politics etc., he was quite good, or 'rather good at it' as he revealingly put it. But he was all presentation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354
    edited 7:08PM
    The PM just has to hold out until 2027 and then things will be easier (I jest, the HoL is not his biggest problem)

    The Observer's Whitehall Editor, Cat Neilan, recently cited my analysis for Hogan Lovells, projecting that the UK government could eliminate the risk of defeat in the House of Lords by 2027.

    There are no limits on the Prime Minister's appointment powers, and the extent of No. 10's ambitions are unclear. Media and public scrutiny could influence how far things go, but both are currently quite subdued. The Lords’ ability to delay bills provides some leverage, potentially encouraging the government to act reasonably if cooler heads prevail.

    Key stats:
    * Since the General Election, the government has been defeated 55 times in 119 Lords divisions, consistent with the previous Conservative government’s experience.
    * However, defeats are set to reduce significantly from 2026.
    * The Hereditary Peers Bill, progressing through the Lords, will remove 88 peers by this session’s end (only 4 are Labour), reducing defeats by 15% and lowering the average majority against the government from 75 to 55.
    * The Government has also been steadily increasing the number of Labour peers. There has been a 36 net gain since the General Election (45 new Labour peers but some are replacing retirees etc)
    * If appointments continue at this pace in 2025-26, defeats could halve. By 2026-27, they may vanish entirely, reducing the ability of the Lords to ask the Government to 'think again'

    * https://nitter.poast.org/nmdacosta/status/1996378088754594241#m
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,354
    edited 7:09PM

    Omnium said:

    A shame Cameron went, I thought he was really rather good. And, @FrancisUrquhart, I thought Hague was going to be a great PM too.

    Cameron went, leaving the country in an utter mess, precisely because he was not very good. Not very good at all.
    I'm not a fan of Cameron at all, and I've criticised his strategy over the Brexit referendum heavily in the past - criticisms you could extend to all three referendums under his governments - and there are many more criticisms of him to make besides, but when you compare him to the PMs who have followed his ability to talk to the public, to make a political case, to lead a Cabinet of capable (if, I might argue, misguided) ministers, put him very far ahead of those that have followed.
    Judged on his own measures of success - keeping things much the same, being a figurehead, doing a bit of politics etc., he was quite good, or 'rather good at it' as he revealingly put it. But he was all presentation.
    Which is not the worst model for a PM, being a decent frontman and political manager, so long as they can pick decent ideologues for strategic direction.

    At the very least he was not at war with his own chancellor, which seems to happen a lot.
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