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  • OT It has been an hour or more so I can officially declare my 5½ hour nosebleed over. Three boxes of Kleenex, a ruined polo shirt and a patch of carpet were notable casualties. It is funny how such trivial things can run on.

    Go to A&E.

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/nosebleed/
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,862


    Darya Safai MP
    @SafaiDarya

    Now in Tehran. Despite a total internet blackout, people are flooding the streets, answering the call of Prince Pahlavi.

    Day 14 of the revolution.

    Freedom is within reach.

    https://x.com/SafaiDarya

    Very brave people. I hope they succeed.
    Well, let's assume for a moment they do and that's far from clear.

    Crown Prince Pahlavi has stated publicly he sees his role as transitional with the process being to conduct a referendum wherein the Iranian people would be asked whether they want a constitutional monarchy (that presumably to be refined rather differently than the Monarchy his father oversaw) and a democratic republic (whatever that might mean).

    It's always possible Pahlavi could end up the President of the Republic - there's an irony if there ever was one but not I believe unprecedented globally.

    As always, it's easy for the West to make all sorts of assumptions about a post-theocratic Iran. The demographic profile is fascinating - in a sense they are where we were and they are heading to where we are. The median age is 35 years and compared to western Europe, Iran is a "young" country but the fertility rate is low and if you look at the projected pyramid in 2050, it looks more like western Europe now so they will be facing all the socio-economic problems of an ageing population in 25-30 years.

    For now, however, there are freedoms to be won and it seems regrettably at the moment the theocracy isn't yet willing or able to accept its time has passed.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,850
    edited January 10
    DavidL said:

    I don’t understand why speed traps have to be visible and forewarned. Hidden ones would be far more effective at altering wanker driving attitudes

    Edit - and raise much more revenue

    Because the point of speed traps is not to catch people speeding. It is to change behaviour that might otherwise create a hazard around a particular thing, such as a school or a difficult junction. Making them really obvious will get most people to slow down. Mission accomplished, as an American President once claimed.
    The possibility of a speed trap being anywhere would alter my behaviour more consistently than the known ones.

    In the NWO we will have a few of the bright yellow ones though most will be green and in the hedge.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,862
    First, thank you for simply providing the link.

    As for the poll itself, almost identical to the mid December numbers. We've had Find Out Now and Opinium ostensibly doing fieldwork at the same time - the main difference is the Labour/Green numbers - Opinium has Labour at 20% and the Greens at 13%, FoN has Labour at 15% and the Greens at 17%.

    Make of that what you will.
  • So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,845
    stodge said:

    First, thank you for simply providing the link.

    As for the poll itself, almost identical to the mid December numbers. We've had Find Out Now and Opinium ostensibly doing fieldwork at the same time - the main difference is the Labour/Green numbers - Opinium has Labour at 20% and the Greens at 13%, FoN has Labour at 15% and the Greens at 17%.

    Make of that what you will.
    Yes while the Tories on 18% and the LDs on 12% with both and Reform near identical, 31% with Opinium and 32% with FoN.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,143

    26 years of driving. No points. No bans. Good No Claims. Two parking tickets.

    I did rear-end shunt someone on a roundabout in 2008, and lost the No Claims. I was stressed about breaking up with my long-term girlfriend at the time, not that that's an excuse.

    I've driven a bike and car for over 35 years without an accident, seen loads though...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,231
    kinabalu said:

    Let's stop pussyfooting around and just ban it.

    Down with this sort of thing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHash5takWU
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,297
    edited January 10

    DavidL said:

    I don’t understand why speed traps have to be visible and forewarned. Hidden ones would be far more effective at altering wanker driving attitudes

    Edit - and raise much more revenue

    Because the point of speed traps is not to catch people speeding. It is to change behaviour that might otherwise create a hazard around a particular thing, such as a school or a difficult junction. Making them really obvious will get most people to slow down. Mission accomplished, as an American President once claimed.
    The possibility of a speed trap being anywhere would alter my behaviour more consistently than the known ones.

    In the NWO we will have a few of the bright yellow ones though most will be green and in the hedge.
    Well there are mobile ones and they can be anywhere but typically they are put in places where excess speed is thought to be contributing to accidents or near accidents.

    What is NWO?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,739
    edited January 10

    kinabalu said:

    Let's stop pussyfooting around and just ban it.

    Driving? ICE? X?
    That horrible grok thing. It's failing the public good test so we snuff it out and move on. Firm bold decisive action. That's the way these days.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,650
    By coincidence, ITV (at least here) has just shown this road safety advert:-

    TFL (Transport For London) - Speeding Kills (2023, UK)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXtERKL544Y
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,565
    edited January 10
    i enjoyed Nuremberg.

    Good acting all round, was good to be reminded that Göring was named after his Jewish godfather/his mother's lover Hermann Epenstein.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,259
    edited January 10
    The speed limit on motorway and dual-carriageways should be increased. Most other speed limits should be reduced, and more strictly enforced

    We should also have a sound limit. Loud vehicles should be banned from driving near residential buildings - a quiet setting for loud vehicles in such areas would be acceptable, if strictly enforced
  • OT It has been an hour or more so I can officially declare my 5½ hour nosebleed over. Three boxes of Kleenex, a ruined polo shirt and a patch of carpet were notable casualties. It is funny how such trivial things can run on.

    Hope you're OK. To quote https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/nosebleed/

    "Go to A&E if:
    "You have a nosebleed and:

    "your nosebleed lasts longer than 10 to 15 minutes"
    My wife had one yesterday and I took her to minor injuries who triaged her, checked her nose, and concluded it was a one off but told her to go to A & E if it recurs

    It was not as extensive and going to A & E seems good advice
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,650

    i enjoyed Nuremberg.

    Good acting all round, was good to reminded that Göring was named after his Jewish godfather/his mother's lover Hermann Epenstein.

    I had a friend who'd been at Nuremberg (RAF police).
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,807

    Millions of people ignore the speed limit. How would accurate and detailed (and huge) documentation with maximum speeds for different situations make the slightest bit of difference to anything in a helpful way?

    Think of the lawyers who find the existing Highway Code sexually unsatisfying.

    If increased to 10 million pages, it would enable them to enjoy life more.

    Have you no heart?
    One of my hopes for the rise of LLM's was that they'd let me fill in all the bullsh*t admin paperwork I have to do 10x faster. Then I realised it would let administrators generate 100x more bullsh*t paperwork in return.

    (Thankfully, work has bought MS Copilot so it's effectively useless and has neutered the admins as they decreed it was the only LLM tech we were allowed to use. Hoisted by their own petard...)
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,850
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I don’t understand why speed traps have to be visible and forewarned. Hidden ones would be far more effective at altering wanker driving attitudes

    Edit - and raise much more revenue

    Because the point of speed traps is not to catch people speeding. It is to change behaviour that might otherwise create a hazard around a particular thing, such as a school or a difficult junction. Making them really obvious will get most people to slow down. Mission accomplished, as an American President once claimed.
    The possibility of a speed trap being anywhere would alter my behaviour more consistently than the known ones.

    In the NWO we will have a few of the bright yellow ones though most will be green and in the hedge.
    Well there are mobile ones and they can be anywhere but typically they are put in places where excess speed is thought to be contributing to accidents or near accidents.

    What is NWO?
    Just messing about with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_conspiracy_theory

    Though the mobile ones are yellow in Scotland?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,807
    kinabalu said:

    Let's stop pussyfooting around and just ban it.

    You are the Labour policy unit, and I claim my five pounds.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,390

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,514
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    theProle said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The idea that the Highway Code needs to be made as big as the tax code, in order to cover every possible eventuality, all to stop lawyers lawyering, is one of the most preposterous arguments I’ve read on here. I hope that it’s heroic trolling

    Fine, expect the law on careless driving causing injury or death then to continue to be often decided by what the judge, jury or magistrate of the day decides it in court to mean then
    Literally the very purpose of our legal system.

    What's the problem?
    You have to keenly follow the significant cases then to see what the law actually is in terms of interpretation of the statutory offence of driving carelessly if no drink or drugs or mobile phone use involved and the Highway Code is not very specific about the action
    no you don't, you just have to take care while driving
    Yes but what is 'taking care' is a subjective opinion beyond not drink or drug driving, not using your phone when driving and not driving over the speed limit and not clearly breaching the terms of the Highway Code.

    So what judges and juries decide it to be needs to be followed in other driving cases charged with careless driving
    it means not driving like a muppet. When you drive you see many drivers driving like muppets. Don't do what they do.
    What is 'not driving like a muppet?' A muppet could be driving at the speed limit, not drunk, have no drugs in his system and not be on his phone and not clearly in breach of the highway code but still be charged with careless driving and you would need to follow the case verdict to see if the muppet was convicted and you needed to avoid similar actions
    Except that I don't need to follow all the case law to understand what muppetry is. I already know that driving round blind corners on single track roads at 60mph is a bad idea, regardless of the posted limit, or that it's prudent to leave very long breaking distances and to take corners gently when there's the potential for the road to be covered in ice. I don't actually need a court verdict to tell me that.

    Court verdicts are only significant when they don't give the outcome you'd expect - eg the recent preverse judgement where a firm was fined because a driver delivering to them fell off his lorry, hit his head on the floor and unfortunately died - thus throwing the onus onto anyone who takes deliveries to manage the working at height risk of a driver unloading his lorry, rather than onto the haulier as you would logically expect. (Personally, I think no case should have been brought against anyone for that particular incident - the costs of mitigation vastly exceed the threshold of "reasonably practicable" relative to the level of risk. But HSE are a bunch of unaccoutable shits who have virtually forgotten the concept of "reasonably practicable".)
    Yes but driving round blind corners at 30mph, is that also a bad idea? Debateable and arguments either way. Maybe if very icy should not be done but otherwise?

    As you have shown even judges can produce judgements you might not expect but going forward that would be the law on similar facts unless overturned on appeal
    Drive around a blind corner so that you can stop if there’s a person lying in the road where it’s blind, or where there’s a tractor stopped there, or be comfortable with killing or dying if you don’t

    It’s not complicated at all
    Yes but if driving around a blind corner should that be 25mph to allow time to stop or 30mph? What if it is raining 25mph or 20mph?
    I did give this up as a fruitless exercise, but I have been sucked back in. I can't help it.

    @hyufd You keep asking what speed you should be going for different conditions and different types of bends. You should know this if you are a driver. It is a driving skill that you learn. What are you expecting? Do you want a limit for every bend in every type of condition for every type of car. This is bonkers. You should know yourself when approaching the bend what is right. If you don't, well you might crash and get banned, which by the sounds of it would be a good thing if you didn't know what speed to go.

    I will however repeat the advice I gave earlier. If this vexes you so much read pages 182 to 190 of the Police Drivers Handbook Roadcraft. You can buy it anywhere. It explains it all to you, although if you have no idea of stopping distances for your car in different conditions it might be a waste of time.

    On another point @BartholomewRoberts has made some very good posts on the subject. In one he mentioned the Highway Code often mentions MUST and SHOULD (in capital red) a lot. I don't know whether it is generally known but where it says MUST, then to not do so is an offence with penalty points applicable. SHOULD is guidance. Although it was made clear to me that the police will often not enforce failure to follow a MUST rule (the application of common sense). A common one being the behaviour of cutting over a mini roundabout where you could fit around it is an offence, but a policeman is unlikely to enforce it unless reckless or he had a row with his wife that morning.
    Should know what? What is the definitive safe speed for going round a bend you should never exceed? What is the definitive safe speed for driving in poor weather conditions you should never exceed?

    Even standard stopping conditions will vary depending on bends or how heavy it is raining for example. So what is the safe speed you should definitely never exceed to include those conditions? Even Must and Should Code rules are not always clear on what exactly they require or prohibit
    To your first two questions 'yes'. You shouldn't be driving if the answer is no.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,864
    ohnotnow said:

    kinabalu said:

    Let's stop pussyfooting around and just ban it.

    You are the Labour policy unit, and I claim my five pounds.
    Fake news.

    The Labour Policy Unit is nowhere near as on the pulse as @kinabalu. He can, at least, achieve "StoppedClock" levels of correctness.

    They change policy to ensure that nothing they suggest is ever correct.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,864
    ohnotnow said:

    Millions of people ignore the speed limit. How would accurate and detailed (and huge) documentation with maximum speeds for different situations make the slightest bit of difference to anything in a helpful way?

    Think of the lawyers who find the existing Highway Code sexually unsatisfying.

    If increased to 10 million pages, it would enable them to enjoy life more.

    Have you no heart?
    One of my hopes for the rise of LLM's was that they'd let me fill in all the bullsh*t admin paperwork I have to do 10x faster. Then I realised it would let administrators generate 100x more bullsh*t paperwork in return.

    (Thankfully, work has bought MS Copilot so it's effectively useless and has neutered the admins as they decreed it was the only LLM tech we were allowed to use. Hoisted by their own petard...)
    The final act of the duelling fates.... An army of LLMs generating bullshit vs an army of LLMS summarising bullshit.


  • FossFoss Posts: 2,225

    ohnotnow said:

    Millions of people ignore the speed limit. How would accurate and detailed (and huge) documentation with maximum speeds for different situations make the slightest bit of difference to anything in a helpful way?

    Think of the lawyers who find the existing Highway Code sexually unsatisfying.

    If increased to 10 million pages, it would enable them to enjoy life more.

    Have you no heart?
    One of my hopes for the rise of LLM's was that they'd let me fill in all the bullsh*t admin paperwork I have to do 10x faster. Then I realised it would let administrators generate 100x more bullsh*t paperwork in return.

    (Thankfully, work has bought MS Copilot so it's effectively useless and has neutered the admins as they decreed it was the only LLM tech we were allowed to use. Hoisted by their own petard...)
    The final act of the duelling fates.... An army of LLMs generating bullshit vs an army of LLMS summarising bullshit.


    Sounds like the modern route to “I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream".
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,142

    i enjoyed Nuremberg.

    Good acting all round, was good to be reminded that Göring was named after his Jewish godfather/his mother's lover Hermann Epenstein.

    His brother Albert used Hermann's name to rescue people from the Nazis...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,864
    Foss said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Millions of people ignore the speed limit. How would accurate and detailed (and huge) documentation with maximum speeds for different situations make the slightest bit of difference to anything in a helpful way?

    Think of the lawyers who find the existing Highway Code sexually unsatisfying.

    If increased to 10 million pages, it would enable them to enjoy life more.

    Have you no heart?
    One of my hopes for the rise of LLM's was that they'd let me fill in all the bullsh*t admin paperwork I have to do 10x faster. Then I realised it would let administrators generate 100x more bullsh*t paperwork in return.

    (Thankfully, work has bought MS Copilot so it's effectively useless and has neutered the admins as they decreed it was the only LLM tech we were allowed to use. Hoisted by their own petard...)
    The final act of the duelling fates.... An army of LLMs generating bullshit vs an army of LLMS summarising bullshit.


    Sounds like the modern route to “I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream".
    More that we will be watching - as the Great Machine pulls in evermore powwwwwwwwwwwwwer!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,340
    stodge said:


    Darya Safai MP
    @SafaiDarya

    Now in Tehran. Despite a total internet blackout, people are flooding the streets, answering the call of Prince Pahlavi.

    Day 14 of the revolution.

    Freedom is within reach.

    https://x.com/SafaiDarya

    Very brave people. I hope they succeed.
    Well, let's assume for a moment they do and that's far from clear.

    Crown Prince Pahlavi has stated publicly he sees his role as transitional with the process being to conduct a referendum wherein the Iranian people would be asked whether they want a constitutional monarchy (that presumably to be refined rather differently than the Monarchy his father oversaw) and a democratic republic (whatever that might mean).

    It's always possible Pahlavi could end up the President of the Republic - there's an irony if there ever was one but not I believe unprecedented globally.

    As always, it's easy for the West to make all sorts of assumptions about a post-theocratic Iran. The demographic profile is fascinating - in a sense they are where we were and they are heading to where we are. The median age is 35 years and compared to western Europe, Iran is a "young" country but the fertility rate is low and if you look at the projected pyramid in 2050, it looks more like western Europe now so they will be facing all the socio-economic problems of an ageing population in 25-30 years.

    For now, however, there are freedoms to be won and it seems regrettably at the moment the theocracy isn't yet willing or able to accept its time has passed.
    The trouble is whilst Trump might be inclined to support regime change he's going to want someone taking over who's answerable to him not to the Iranian people.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,436
    It's tragic what is going on in Iran .. admire and pity the young people on the street there
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj9rengvnp9o
    and the BBC is probably just scratching the surface
    more, but not much more on Sky
    meanwhile "US conducts large-scale strikes against ISIS targets in Syria"
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,042
    geoffw said:

    It's tragic what is going on in Iran .. admire and pity the young people on the street there
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj9rengvnp9o
    and the BBC is probably just scratching the surface
    more, but not much more on Sky
    meanwhile "US conducts large-scale strikes against ISIS targets in Syria"

    It's the first article on the BBC news website!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,447

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    12m
    Reports coming out of Washington that US military planners now looking at possible strikes on Iranian military targets if Iranian regime continues to crackdown hard on protestors.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,301

    OT It has been an hour or more so I can officially declare my 5½ hour nosebleed over. Three boxes of Kleenex, a ruined polo shirt and a patch of carpet were notable casualties. It is funny how such trivial things can run on.

    When I suffered nosebleeds it was due to previously undiagnosed high blood pressure. You should get it checked, but drive carefully to the doctor’s.
  • I reckon that I’d be tyrannical compared to HYUFD on driving laws and standards

    I just wouldn’t make the theory test into an applied mathematics degree
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,447
    Topped up on Rubio being GOP nominee in 2028.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,941
    Tres said:

    Very interesting by Jimmy Carr here. Fascinating insights on young men, isolation in society, identity and personal purpose.

    I'm not sure I've heard these expressed as well anywhere else. Two conclusions: (1) he's very intelligent, and, (2) it feels like he's ever so slightly politicising now, possibly because he's concerned and feels he has to.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNcP1G3coWM

    Carr is extremely intelligent and well read. Not just the Cambridge degree, but he has done a lot of podcasts and is able to display breath of knowledge and understanding. For me at a surface level comedy doesn't do justice to actually how smart he is, 100 knob gags and your fat / ugly munter seems like shooting fish in a barrel for him (although keeping that going year after year with new material is impressive, most comedians like musicians have a few greatest hits).

    In the past couple of years he has started filming his audience work and putting it on YouTube. Again its dominated by your a moron / your a slag etc, but in there he drops 2-3 serious moments and they are often really interesting.

    His explanation is that he is genuinely very curious individual and driven to work hard. So he does an insane number of gigs, but that requires huge amount of travel and sitting around, so he is constantly educating himself via books, podcasts, etc.
    I am a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've been to his live shows dozens of times, yet people still heckle him, his responses are a thing of beauty.

    He said he learned a lot about the human condition from working at Shell's marketing department, and also a lot due to the breakdown in his relationship with his father. I don't think they've spoken for over 20 years.

    Can you imagine a Cambridge educated guy making knob jokes and innuendos?
    I am another massive Jimmy Carr fan but only a recent convert. I find his stand up amusing but can take it or leave it But I love his interviews and commentaries. Obviously on part because I agree with so much he says but more because he is so articulate and able to crystallise an argument. There is a huge amount of humanity and good will underpinning it all.
    I saw Carr at Up the Creek in Greenwich many years ago before he became a fixture on the TV. And he still uses some of those jokes from way back then. Notice no one has actually mentioned what these fascinating insights on young men were.
    There's loads of it on Youtube. Worth a look.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,436

    geoffw said:

    It's tragic what is going on in Iran .. admire and pity the young people on the street there
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj9rengvnp9o
    and the BBC is probably just scratching the surface
    more, but not much more on Sky
    meanwhile "US conducts large-scale strikes against ISIS targets in Syria"

    It's the first article on the BBC news website!
    Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the BBC is not giving due attention – in fact it has more than Sky. I just meant that Sky didn't add much. Both are of course hampered by lack of access and internet blackout. The BBC Persian service are surely doing their best
  • Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
  • Where does the South end?

    From where I am, I think Gloucestershire and Oxfordshire are the extremities to the north, and the border to the West has also yet to be defined
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,301

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,506
    Oops.

    “US citizens in Venezuela should leave the country immediately…

    “There are reports of groups of armed militias, known as colectivos, setting up roadblocks and searching vehicles for evidence of US citizenship or support for the United States.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/chadbourn.bsky.social/post/3mc3xyn5w3k2o
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,259
    edited January 10

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,129
    edited January 10
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    theProle said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The idea that the Highway Code needs to be made as big as the tax code, in order to cover every possible eventuality, all to stop lawyers lawyering, is one of the most preposterous arguments I’ve read on here. I hope that it’s heroic trolling

    Fine, expect the law on careless driving causing injury or death then to continue to be often decided by what the judge, jury or magistrate of the day decides it in court to mean then
    Literally the very purpose of our legal system.

    What's the problem?
    You have to keenly follow the significant cases then to see what the law actually is in terms of interpretation of the statutory offence of driving carelessly if no drink or drugs or mobile phone use involved and the Highway Code is not very specific about the action
    no you don't, you just have to take care while driving
    Yes but what is 'taking care' is a subjective opinion beyond not drink or drug driving, not using your phone when driving and not driving over the speed limit and not clearly breaching the terms of the Highway Code.

    So what judges and juries decide it to be needs to be followed in other driving cases charged with careless driving
    it means not driving like a muppet. When you drive you see many drivers driving like muppets. Don't do what they do.
    What is 'not driving like a muppet?' A muppet could be driving at the speed limit, not drunk, have no drugs in his system and not be on his phone and not clearly in breach of the highway code but still be charged with careless driving and you would need to follow the case verdict to see if the muppet was convicted and you needed to avoid similar actions
    Except that I don't need to follow all the case law to understand what muppetry is. I already know that driving round blind corners on single track roads at 60mph is a bad idea, regardless of the posted limit, or that it's prudent to leave very long breaking distances and to take corners gently when there's the potential for the road to be covered in ice. I don't actually need a court verdict to tell me that.

    Court verdicts are only significant when they don't give the outcome you'd expect - eg the recent preverse judgement where a firm was fined because a driver delivering to them fell off his lorry, hit his head on the floor and unfortunately died - thus throwing the onus onto anyone who takes deliveries to manage the working at height risk of a driver unloading his lorry, rather than onto the haulier as you would logically expect. (Personally, I think no case should have been brought against anyone for that particular incident - the costs of mitigation vastly exceed the threshold of "reasonably practicable" relative to the level of risk. But HSE are a bunch of unaccoutable shits who have virtually forgotten the concept of "reasonably practicable".)
    Yes but driving round blind corners at 30mph, is that also a bad idea? Debateable and arguments either way. Maybe if very icy should not be done but otherwise?

    As you have shown even judges can produce judgements you might not expect but going forward that would be the law on similar facts unless overturned on appeal
    Drive around a blind corner so that you can stop if there’s a person lying in the road where it’s blind, or where there’s a tractor stopped there, or be comfortable with killing or dying if you don’t

    It’s not complicated at all
    Yes but if driving around a blind corner should that be 25mph to allow time to stop or 30mph? What if it is raining 25mph or 20mph?
    I did give this up as a fruitless exercise, but I have been sucked back in. I can't help it.

    @hyufd You keep asking what speed you should be going for different conditions and different types of bends. You should know this if you are a driver. It is a driving skill that you learn. What are you expecting? Do you want a limit for every bend in every type of condition for every type of car. This is bonkers. You should know yourself when approaching the bend what is right. If you don't, well you might crash and get banned, which by the sounds of it would be a good thing if you didn't know what speed to go.

    I will however repeat the advice I gave earlier. If this vexes you so much read pages 182 to 190 of the Police Drivers Handbook Roadcraft. You can buy it anywhere. It explains it all to you, although if you have no idea of stopping distances for your car in different conditions it might be a waste of time.

    On another point @BartholomewRoberts has made some very good posts on the subject. In one he mentioned the Highway Code often mentions MUST and SHOULD (in capital red) a lot. I don't know whether it is generally known but where it says MUST, then to not do so is an offence with penalty points applicable. SHOULD is guidance. Although it was made clear to me that the police will often not enforce failure to follow a MUST rule (the application of common sense). A common one being the behaviour of cutting over a mini roundabout where you could fit around it is an offence, but a policeman is unlikely to enforce it unless reckless or he had a row with his wife that morning.
    Should know what? What is the definitive safe speed for going round a bend you should never exceed? What is the definitive safe speed for driving in poor weather conditions you should never exceed?

    Even standard stopping conditions will vary depending on bends or how heavy it is raining for example. So what is the safe speed you should definitely never exceed to include those conditions? Even Must and Should Code rules are not always clear on what exactly they require or prohibit
    There is no definitive safe speed.

    MUST rules are clear on you must do, not prohibited actions. MUST NOT rules are clear on what is prohibited.

    But not all that is not prohibited is safe, which is why you SHOULD use care and attention.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,664
    stodge said:


    Darya Safai MP
    @SafaiDarya

    Now in Tehran. Despite a total internet blackout, people are flooding the streets, answering the call of Prince Pahlavi.

    Day 14 of the revolution.

    Freedom is within reach.

    https://x.com/SafaiDarya

    Very brave people. I hope they succeed.
    Well, let's assume for a moment they do and that's far from clear.

    Crown Prince Pahlavi has stated publicly he sees his role as transitional with the process being to conduct a referendum wherein the Iranian people would be asked whether they want a constitutional monarchy (that presumably to be refined rather differently than the Monarchy his father oversaw) and a democratic republic (whatever that might mean).

    It's always possible Pahlavi could end up the President of the Republic - there's an irony if there ever was one but not I believe unprecedented globally.

    As always, it's easy for the West to make all sorts of assumptions about a post-theocratic Iran. The demographic profile is fascinating - in a sense they are where we were and they are heading to where we are. The median age is 35 years and compared to western Europe, Iran is a "young" country but the fertility rate is low and if you look at the projected pyramid in 2050, it looks more like western Europe now so they will be facing all the socio-economic problems of an ageing population in 25-30 years.

    For now, however, there are freedoms to be won and it seems regrettably at the moment the theocracy isn't yet willing or able to accept its time has passed.
    I postulated 4 outcomes if Iran successfully ditched the mullahs: civil war and chaos; chaos followed by a return to dictatorship; democratic flourishing; partial democracy with an ethno-nationalist restoration.

    If Pahlavi is earnest then there is a hopeful analogue: William of Orange and the glorious revolution. I wonder if that’s his inspiration. Let’s hope so.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,301

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    He would need to own the paper shop to afford to do that now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,864

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    He would need to own the paper shop to afford to do that now.
    ....as a money laundering front for a drug empire....
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,777

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    Brian Redhead used to commute from Macclesfield to Portland Place to present the Today programme. I therefore contend it's an outer London commuter town similar to, say, Godalming.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,266
    edited January 10
    ohnotnow said:

    Millions of people ignore the speed limit. How would accurate and detailed (and huge) documentation with maximum speeds for different situations make the slightest bit of difference to anything in a helpful way?

    Think of the lawyers who find the existing Highway Code sexually unsatisfying.

    If increased to 10 million pages, it would enable them to enjoy life more.

    Have you no heart?
    One of my hopes for the rise of LLM's was that they'd let me fill in all the bullsh*t admin paperwork I have to do 10x faster. Then I realised it would let administrators generate 100x more bullsh*t paperwork in return.

    (Thankfully, work has bought MS Copilot so it's effectively useless and has neutered the admins as they decreed it was the only LLM tech we were allowed to use. Hoisted by their own petard...)
    I'm continually implored to get Copilot to improve efficiency, but so far it has not proven very useful.

    I don't doubt in time an AI could do my job, and many others, but we're still further off than people think even on some pretty basic tasks that people expect could be automated (even without AI) effectively.
  • Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    Macc is in the North. Crewe and Nantwich are disputed territory.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,266

    OT It has been an hour or more so I can officially declare my 5½ hour nosebleed over. Three boxes of Kleenex, a ruined polo shirt and a patch of carpet were notable casualties. It is funny how such trivial things can run on.

    As others have noted with the official advice, that is not trivial, though I am sure there would be heavy sighs from the people on the phone if you tried to follow that advice.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,447
    Scott_xP said:

    Oops.

    “US citizens in Venezuela should leave the country immediately…

    “There are reports of groups of armed militias, known as colectivos, setting up roadblocks and searching vehicles for evidence of US citizenship or support for the United States.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/chadbourn.bsky.social/post/3mc3xyn5w3k2o

    Sounds like Venezuela ICE.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,664
    edited January 10
    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,703
    Scott_xP said:

    Oops.

    “US citizens in Venezuela should leave the country immediately…

    “There are reports of groups of armed militias, known as colectivos, setting up roadblocks and searching vehicles for evidence of US citizenship or support for the United States.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/chadbourn.bsky.social/post/3mc3xyn5w3k2o

    Should really help that oil investment come through.

    Even ignoring the many valid points made by those knowledgeable about oil on how difficult and costly it would be for US oil companies to start drilling in size in a way that is profitable down there, does Trump really think they would be safe?

    He may or may not get the new Venezuelan President in his pocket. But the President will not have control over every armed gang in her country.

    I wouldn't go to work there for a US oil company if you offered me a million a year.
  • Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    Weirdly, my Dad is a Spurs fan

    The very first game he saw live was Man City hammering Spurs. I think that Spurs were then the Double winners and had an Argentinian or two in their ranks, so even a 5-2 drubbing wouldn't matter to a young Spurs fan
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,266
    edited January 10
    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion

    Given the nature of Trump's statements, if he is not a brazen liar then he has no real interest in Europe taking security in the Arctic more seriously, notwithstanding the occasional comment, since that would still not be American security.

    So if they are taking that tack I think it is probably misplaced.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,142
    Scott_xP said:

    Oops.

    “US citizens in Venezuela should leave the country immediately…

    “There are reports of groups of armed militias, known as colectivos, setting up roadblocks and searching vehicles for evidence of US citizenship or support for the United States.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/chadbourn.bsky.social/post/3mc3xyn5w3k2o

    Boots on the ground, gringos?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,468
    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Starmer has no charisma, and his comms are awful. But with (really important) stuff like this I'm glad he's the PM, and not Davey - or God forbid, Farage.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,160
    edited January 10
    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,468

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    Weirdly, my Dad is a Spurs fan

    The very first game he saw live was Man City hammering Spurs. I think that Spurs were then the Double winners and had an Argentinian or two in their ranks, so even a 5-2 drubbing wouldn't matter to a young Spurs fan
    Two different eras? They won the double in 1961, but Ardiles and Villa arrived after the 1978 World Cup.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,160

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Starmer has no charisma, and his comms are awful. But with (really important) stuff like this I'm glad he's the PM, and not Davey - or God forbid, Farage.
    Davey would be fine.
    Heaven knows what Farage would do other than cheerlead Trump.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,260

    kjh said:

    Tres said:

    The best place to drive: A Motorway with light traffic and a 50 mph speed limit. No hassle whatsoever.

    i find driving at 50 mph on motorways so tedious my focus wanders
    Ditto. I hate motorway driving. I loose concentration. I struggle over 150 miles. I love driving around the countryside.
    I do the 8 hour run to Aberdeen from Lincolnshire every Monday night and back again every Thursday. I have come to really like that time as I am forced to relax - listen to books, podcasts and music - which I can never do at home when there are always a million and one other calls on my time. Once I realised (fairly quickly) that speeding and agressive manouveres wouldn't actually save me much time, I just use cruise control and enjoy the ride.
    My commute is over 100 miles there and 100 miles back. IIUC, Aberdeen from Lincolnshire is approx 400 miles there and 400 miles back. So I think you win that one. :(
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,703
    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
    Agreed I see no harm in having a good cop bad cop team effort in Europe until Trump crosses the red line.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,864
    Anyone seen the latest on the Iranian Scot Nat Bots?

    Apparently they've gone berserk - demanding an instant revolution and claiming a rising in the Highlands is occurring.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,468
    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Starmer has no charisma, and his comms are awful. But with (really important) stuff like this I'm glad he's the PM, and not Davey - or God forbid, Farage.
    Davey would be fine.
    Heaven knows what Farage would do other than cheerlead Trump.
    He wouldn't be able to manage the necessary flattery and ego-caressing.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,468

    Anyone seen the latest on the Iranian Scot Nat Bots?

    Apparently they've gone berserk - demanding an instant revolution and claiming a rising in the Highlands is occurring.

    'Instant'? I think they'll have to wait until the snow clears ...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,672

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Starmer has no charisma, and his comms are awful. But with (really important) stuff like this I'm glad he's the PM, and not Davey - or God forbid, Farage.
    Yes, I think he could have been a successful Foreign Sec as he does seem to do well at this sort of diplomacy (except Gaza). It is the domestic stuff he cannot handle.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,739

    ohnotnow said:

    kinabalu said:

    Let's stop pussyfooting around and just ban it.

    You are the Labour policy unit, and I claim my five pounds.
    Fake news.

    The Labour Policy Unit is nowhere near as on the pulse as @kinabalu. He can, at least, achieve "StoppedClock" levels of correctness.

    They change policy to ensure that nothing they suggest is ever correct.
    Cmon get with the new JFDI ethic. Enough of the form filling handwringing 'review its arse off until we're all dead' Process State nonsense. Sick of all that. Just BAN it. Use the sovereignty that we fought for in countless wars and voted for in 2016. Stand up to Big Fascist Tech. Take back control.
  • Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    Weirdly, my Dad is a Spurs fan

    The very first game he saw live was Man City hammering Spurs. I think that Spurs were then the Double winners and had an Argentinian or two in their ranks, so even a 5-2 drubbing wouldn't matter to a young Spurs fan
    Two different eras? They won the double in 1961, but Ardiles and Villa arrived after the 1978 World Cup.
    You’re quite right. I’ve confused things
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,386
    edited January 10
    The US and its partner forces have carried out large-scale strikes against Islamic State (IS) group targets in Syria, the US Central Command (Centcom) has announced.

    US President Donald Trump directed the strikes on Saturday, which are part of Operation Hawkeye Strike, in retaliation for the IS group's deadly attack on US forces in Syria on 13 December, Centcom wrote on X.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly9597r4qpo

    All the pizza warnings went off a few hours ago. They really need to stop ordering pizza, perhaps try Chinese instead....
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,514

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    Weirdly, my Dad is a Spurs fan

    The very first game he saw live was Man City hammering Spurs. I think that Spurs were then the Double winners and had an Argentinian or two in their ranks, so even a 5-2 drubbing wouldn't matter to a young Spurs fan
    Two different eras? They won the double in 1961, but Ardiles and Villa arrived after the 1978 World Cup.
    They had a very memorable cup final, particularly Villa. I was a supporter then. Gone off footy since.
  • Has anyone got adventures planned for this year?
  • The speed limit on motorway and dual-carriageways should be increased. Most other speed limits should be reduced, and more strictly enforced

    We should also have a sound limit. Loud vehicles should be banned from driving near residential buildings - a quiet setting for loud vehicles in such areas would be acceptable, if strictly enforced

    Raising the limit would cause problems for the vehicles that already can't reach 70, they'd be more likely to be struck due to the increased speed differential. Tractors can go on dual carriageways, 50cc mopeds on motorways, etc. The speed/power limits for some vehicles would need to be raised to compensate, which would require licencing changes. Can't see it happening.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,468
    kjh said:

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    Weirdly, my Dad is a Spurs fan

    The very first game he saw live was Man City hammering Spurs. I think that Spurs were then the Double winners and had an Argentinian or two in their ranks, so even a 5-2 drubbing wouldn't matter to a young Spurs fan
    Two different eras? They won the double in 1961, but Ardiles and Villa arrived after the 1978 World Cup.
    They had a very memorable cup final, particularly Villa. I was a supporter then. Gone off footy since.
    Yes, I remember watching that replay against Manchester City and it was probably the best goal ever scored in an FA Cup Final.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,386
    edited January 10

    The speed limit on motorway and dual-carriageways should be increased. Most other speed limits should be reduced, and more strictly enforced

    We should also have a sound limit. Loud vehicles should be banned from driving near residential buildings - a quiet setting for loud vehicles in such areas would be acceptable, if strictly enforced

    Raising the limit would cause problems for the vehicles that already can't reach 70, they'd be more likely to be struck due to the increased speed differential. Tractors can go on dual carriageways, 50cc mopeds on motorways, etc. The speed/power limits for some vehicles would need to be raised to compensate, which would require licencing changes. Can't see it happening.
    80mph is already the defacto upper bound on speed norms on most motorways and the police generally don't bother with people doing <80mph. You could put it into law with carrot and stick of exceeding it bigger splash on the wrist.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,773
    A nice message from an American trying to explain to Americans why Denmark's socialism is so much better than anything on offer from Trump in his attempted buying of Greenland.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GscCBkiYBw
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,160

    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Starmer has no charisma, and his comms are awful. But with (really important) stuff like this I'm glad he's the PM, and not Davey - or God forbid, Farage.
    Davey would be fine.
    Heaven knows what Farage would do other than cheerlead Trump.
    He wouldn't be able to manage the necessary flattery and ego-caressing.
    That's questionable.

    It's also questionable how necessary the flattery is. It certainly failed the ridiculous Rutte, and conversely Trump sometimes respects those who stand up to him.

    In any event Davey is in opposition, with years to go until the next election. It's absolutely necessary for some of our political class to make the point trenchantly that Trump cannot be trusted in the slightest.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,243
    edited January 10

    Anyone seen the latest on the Iranian Scot Nat Bots?

    Apparently they've gone berserk - demanding an instant revolution and claiming a rising in the Highlands is occurring.

    Haven’t they heard, due to the iniquitous SNP government the north of Scotland is in snowed-under lockdown.
    Tbf the notoriously pro Nat BBC has been deliberately ignoring it, so how would they know?

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,301
    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Starmer would be a good Foreign Secretary. It’s a pity he’s a useless PM.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,301
    kjh said:

    Tres said:

    So.. is Macclesfield in the North?

    I say yes. I’m pretty sure that Sandy says no. I haven’t yet compared it to Congleton for Cookie. But I’m not sure that geographical northernness matches English Northernness. In fact, I’m sure that the boundary of the North isn’t a straight line

    So what about Macclesfield?

    my friend is from macclesfield and sounds like a manc so yes northern
    So far the survey says..

    Macclesfield is in the North!
    If you lived in Macc and were going for a night out you would go to Manc. When Macc beat Crystal Palace all right thinking people cheered. Ergo Macc is in the north.
    I like your logic. Makes my Dad definitely Northern. Born and raised in Glossop, from a young age he used to save his paper round money to get a train to Manchester every weekend to watch United, City, or Lancashire cricket. Imagine being able to do that now..
    Weirdly, my Dad is a Spurs fan

    The very first game he saw live was Man City hammering Spurs. I think that Spurs were then the Double winners and had an Argentinian or two in their ranks, so even a 5-2 drubbing wouldn't matter to a young Spurs fan
    Two different eras? They won the double in 1961, but Ardiles and Villa arrived after the 1978 World Cup.
    They had a very memorable cup final, particularly Villa. I was a supporter then. Gone off footy since.
    So have Spurs!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,739
    Foxy said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Starmer has no charisma, and his comms are awful. But with (really important) stuff like this I'm glad he's the PM, and not Davey - or God forbid, Farage.
    Yes, I think he could have been a successful Foreign Sec as he does seem to do well at this sort of diplomacy (except Gaza). It is the domestic stuff he cannot handle.
    The irony is he actually is "not like normal politicians" but not in a way which appeals to people who say they want that.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,259
    edited January 10
    My Dad did definitely go to the 76 Cup Final

    He was a medical student who had married and had a baby girl (my sister), and went to Wembley with his cop father in law and his cop friends, nearly fifty years ago

    Oh When The Saints Go Marching In
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,447

    Shashank Joshi
    @shashj
    ·
    27m
    'An eyewitness who joined the protests on Thursday and Friday nights in Tehran told BBC Persian Television that Gen Z Iranians have been instrumental in encouraging their parents and older people to come out and join the protest marches, urging them not to be afraid.'

    https://x.com/shashj/status/2010112134345093128
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,650
    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
    Greenland is not about security. It's about dibs on the Arctic carve-up with Russia and China. That's why America wants Canada as well.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,243

    The speed limit on motorway and dual-carriageways should be increased. Most other speed limits should be reduced, and more strictly enforced

    We should also have a sound limit. Loud vehicles should be banned from driving near residential buildings - a quiet setting for loud vehicles in such areas would be acceptable, if strictly enforced

    Raising the limit would cause problems for the vehicles that already can't reach 70, they'd be more likely to be struck due to the increased speed differential. Tractors can go on dual carriageways, 50cc mopeds on motorways, etc. The speed/power limits for some vehicles would need to be raised to compensate, which would require licencing changes. Can't see it happening.
    A more helpful measure would be to ban HGVs from the outside lane of dual carriageways and two lane motorways between 7am and 7pm, as is done on German autobahns. There are few things more frustrating than an HGV in the outside lane at 56mph overtaking an HGV in the inside lane doing 55mph, with a half mile tailback behind.
    Though an HGV in the outside lane at 56mph overtaking three HGVs in the inside lane doing 55mph definitely tops it.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,301

    The speed limit on motorway and dual-carriageways should be increased. Most other speed limits should be reduced, and more strictly enforced

    We should also have a sound limit. Loud vehicles should be banned from driving near residential buildings - a quiet setting for loud vehicles in such areas would be acceptable, if strictly enforced

    Raising the limit would cause problems for the vehicles that already can't reach 70, they'd be more likely to be struck due to the increased speed differential. Tractors can go on dual carriageways, 50cc mopeds on motorways, etc. The speed/power limits for some vehicles would need to be raised to compensate, which would require licencing changes. Can't see it happening.
    A more helpful measure would be to ban HGVs from the outside lane of dual carriageways and two lane motorways between 7am and 7pm, as is done on German autobahns. There are few things more frustrating than an HGV in the outside lane at 56mph overtaking an HGV in the inside lane doing 55mph, with a half mile tailback behind.
    Though an HGV in the outside lane at 56mph overtaking three HGVs in the inside lane doing 55mph definitely tops it.
    You have obviously driven along the M8 between Newhouse and Harthill as well!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,036

    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
    Greenland is not about security. It's about dibs on the Arctic carve-up with Russia and China. That's why America wants Canada as well.
    The bogus security angle is just easier to sell to the shitmunchers. The US can already do whatever they like in Greenland in terms of military presence and Denmark (or anyone) isn't going to shit about it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,864

    Anyone seen the latest on the Iranian Scot Nat Bots?

    Apparently they've gone berserk - demanding an instant revolution and claiming a rising in the Highlands is occurring.

    Haven’t they heard, due to the iniquitous SNP government the north of Scotland is in snowed-under lockdown.
    Tbf the notoriously pro Nat BBC has been deliberately ignoring it, so how would they know?

    Apparently they include a claim that a BBC presenter was arrested, on air, for reporting the rebellion.

    Anyone seen any fiery crosses?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,160
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
    Greenland is not about security. It's about dibs on the Arctic carve-up with Russia and China. That's why America wants Canada as well.
    The bogus security angle is just easier to sell to the shitmunchers. The US can already do whatever they like in Greenland in terms of military presence and Denmark (or anyone) isn't going to shit about it.
    It's extremely unlikely Europe is going to go to war with them to stop a Greenland takeover, sure.
    But it's wrong to assume it would be consequence free. The US would become as unattractive partner as China at that point, which down the road leads to a lot of possible downsides.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,036
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
    Greenland is not about security. It's about dibs on the Arctic carve-up with Russia and China. That's why America wants Canada as well.
    The bogus security angle is just easier to sell to the shitmunchers. The US can already do whatever they like in Greenland in terms of military presence and Denmark (or anyone) isn't going to shit about it.
    It's extremely unlikely Europe is going to go to war with them to stop a Greenland takeover, sure.
    But it's wrong to assume it would be consequence free. The US would become as unattractive partner as China at that point, which down the road leads to a lot of possible downsides.
    oh no not consequences
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,386
    edited January 10
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
    Greenland is not about security. It's about dibs on the Arctic carve-up with Russia and China. That's why America wants Canada as well.
    The bogus security angle is just easier to sell to the shitmunchers. The US can already do whatever they like in Greenland in terms of military presence and Denmark (or anyone) isn't going to shit about it.
    There was a correspondence on R5 the other day saying that basically the US already have agreements (including a new one in the past year or so) which allows the US to have as many troops as they like and fly over it at will as long as they inform Denmark. They can't say no as long as they get a message on Signal to say they are going to increase activity.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,386
    Labour MP tells Starmer: Scrap jury reforms or face a by-election
    Karl Turner, who was once falsely accused of a crime, has warned the PM he will stand down on a point of principle

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/labour-starmer-jury-reforms-election-klx7xwkg5
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,266
    edited January 10

    Anyone seen the latest on the Iranian Scot Nat Bots?

    Apparently they've gone berserk - demanding an instant revolution and claiming a rising in the Highlands is occurring.

    HYUFD was right all along, send in the tanks!

    (He knows I jest - no way our tanks work in that terrain)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,266
    edited January 10
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
    Greenland is not about security. It's about dibs on the Arctic carve-up with Russia and China. That's why America wants Canada as well.
    The bogus security angle is just easier to sell to the shitmunchers. The US can already do whatever they like in Greenland in terms of military presence and Denmark (or anyone) isn't going to shit about it.
    It's extremely unlikely Europe is going to go to war with them to stop a Greenland takeover, sure.
    But it's wrong to assume it would be consequence free. The US would become as unattractive partner as China at that point, which down the road leads to a lot of possible downsides.
    oh no not consequences
    Yes as a superpower they can effectively do what they like with just angry words in response, but it is surely still a mistake to assume that they slapping their military dick all over (former) allies' faces is without any consequence whatsoever - otherwise they'd never have developed a policy of speaking softly in the first place. So sarcastic dismissal of attitudes souring on the USA seem like cynical short termism disguised as realism.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,266


    Shashank Joshi
    @shashj
    ·
    27m
    'An eyewitness who joined the protests on Thursday and Friday nights in Tehran told BBC Persian Television that Gen Z Iranians have been instrumental in encouraging their parents and older people to come out and join the protest marches, urging them not to be afraid.'

    https://x.com/shashj/status/2010112134345093128

    I have the depressing thought that I'd be at best a bystander and at worst a collaborator in any revolutionary heroic endeavour.

    Oh well, I guess you never really know until the moment comes (it should be due about now, given an acquaintance assured me the summer political discontent demonstrated there was a rebellion going on in the UK).
  • Labour MP tells Starmer: Scrap jury reforms or face a by-election
    Karl Turner, who was once falsely accused of a crime, has warned the PM he will stand down on a point of principle

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/labour-starmer-jury-reforms-election-klx7xwkg5

    Kudos to him for standing on principle.

    And actually standing on principle, not a David Davis-style gimmick by-election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,160
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Actually it's probably the case that both the French and British approaches are valid.

    Either way it requires an increase in European military capacity, so they're no in any event completely at odds.

    Reducing reliance on US produced weapons remains imperative., as there's no way we can trust a MAGA led US, even if we collaborate militarily with them.

    It's not going to be the easiest of balances, naturally.
    Greenland is not about security. It's about dibs on the Arctic carve-up with Russia and China. That's why America wants Canada as well.
    The bogus security angle is just easier to sell to the shitmunchers. The US can already do whatever they like in Greenland in terms of military presence and Denmark (or anyone) isn't going to shit about it.
    It's extremely unlikely Europe is going to go to war with them to stop a Greenland takeover, sure.
    But it's wrong to assume it would be consequence free. The US would become as unattractive partner as China at that point, which down the road leads to a lot of possible downsides.
    oh no not consequences
    It's not a threat, just an observation.

    You've taken the line since the beginning of Putin's disastrous exercise that Europe is without any real agency.
    That's simply not true.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,266

    Nigelb said:

    MelonB said:

    This is either excellent diplomacy keeping the Western world away from the brink, or pitiful naïveté. Or a bit of both. Whichever, I wish them well.

    NEW: The UK is quietly taking a leading role on Greenland, trying to persuade Trump he doesn’t need to take it over by demonstrating Europe is serious about Arctic security

    In last 48 hours Starmer has spoken to Trump twice about the High North, as well as Frederiksen, Rutte, Macron, Merz

    The UK this week deployed 1,500 Royal Marines commandos to northern Norway. It led discussion on the topic at NATO’s North Atlantic Council. Healey sent message to Danish counterpart. All suggests a larger British role than publicly advertised

    Starmer has been telling Trump that Europe will do more in the Arctic and urging European counterparts to step up their security presence and cooperation with the US there

    That’s in Europe’s interests amid rising concerns about suspected Russian sabotage activity on undersea cables around Finland

    But the British aim is also to persuade Trump that Europe can help with shared interests on Greenland too, rather than let it divide NATO

    One diplomat described it as an effort to take the heat out of the situation, with hopes that the calmer Rubio viewpoint prevails

    It’s the same UK strategy as on Ukraine negotiations and with aiding the US seizure of the tanker in the North Atlantic: demonstrating European diplomatic, military and security utility to the US

    It notably contrasts with the French approach, which publicly warned this week that Europe is facing threats of US coercion


    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2009666844399894695?s=46

    Starmer has no charisma, and his comms are awful. But with (really important) stuff like this I'm glad he's the PM, and not Davey - or God forbid, Farage.
    Davey would be fine.
    Heaven knows what Farage would do other than cheerlead Trump.
    He wouldn't be able to manage the necessary flattery and ego-caressing.
    It must be hard to do with a straight face. Trump probably knows it is mostly phony (though no doubt many respect his power), though I expect that just makes it more appealing to him, not less.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,386
    edited January 10


    Shashank Joshi
    @shashj
    ·
    27m
    'An eyewitness who joined the protests on Thursday and Friday nights in Tehran told BBC Persian Television that Gen Z Iranians have been instrumental in encouraging their parents and older people to come out and join the protest marches, urging them not to be afraid.'

    https://x.com/shashj/status/2010112134345093128

    If people are stuck for tv to watch, a reminder that Tehran is one of the best tv show of the past 10 years.
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