Motorway‑by‑Motorway Breakdown of “The North” Signage
🚗 M1 (London → Leeds) Appears from North London: As soon as you join the M1 heading out of London, you’ll see “The North” alongside “Watford”, “Luton”, etc.
Continues past Milton Keynes: Still labelled “The North” through Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire.
Fades out around Nottingham / East Midlands: Once you reach the Nottingham/Derby/Leicester triangle, the signage shifts to specific cities like Sheffield, Leeds, and Doncaster.
Gone entirely by Sheffield: At this point, you’re considered in the North.
🚗 M6 (Birmingham → Carlisle) Appears south of Birmingham: Approaching the West Midlands, “The North (M6)” is common on the M5, M40, and M42 feeders.
Strongest around the M6/M5 junction: This is one of the most famous “The North” sign clusters.
Disappears north of Wolverhampton: Once you’re past the Black Country, signs switch to Manchester, Liverpool, and Preston.
Replaced by Scotland references near Carlisle: By the time you reach Cumbria, signs point to Scotland instead of “The North”.
🚗 M40 (London → Birmingham) Appears around High Wycombe: “The North (M6)” appears long before you reach Birmingham.
Continues to the M42 interchange: The M40 uses “The North” as a directional label until you hit the Birmingham orbital.
Stops once you join the M42/M6: After that, you’re in the Midlands and the signage becomes more specific.
🚗 M4 (London → South Wales) Appears only near the M25/M40 junction: The M4 itself doesn’t go north, but signs for “The North (M40)” appear around Heathrow and the M25.
Disappears once you’re west of Reading: Because the M4 isn’t a northbound route, “The North” is only used to direct you to the M40 or M1.
🚗 M5 (Birmingham → Exeter) Appears only near Birmingham: “The North (M6)” appears at the northern end of the M5.
Gone once you head south: The M5 is a south‑west motorway, so “The North” is only used to direct you away from it.
🚗 M62 (Liverpool → Hull) Almost never uses “The North”: Because the M62 runs across the North, not toward it.
Uses city names instead: Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull — no regional labels needed.
🚗 M25 (London orbital) Appears on northern and western quadrants: Signs like “The North (M1)” or “The North (M40)” are common.
Stops once you’re directed onto the correct motorway: The M25 itself never takes you to “The North”; it only funnels you toward the M1 or M40.
Road signs are only really to point you in a direction. You are clearly in the North in North Yorkshire, yet you still get road signs pointing you towards THE NORTH or THE SOUTH on the A1 so you kniw whether to join on this side or the other.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
Wait, what?!
These people are specifically trained to deal with the stress of armed response. You and William are saying it's not sensible to provoke them with...a camera and a polite assertion of your rights as a citizen?!
The analogy in teaching would be to say to a student 'its not sensible to question a teacher while they are dealing with an unruly pupil - see what reaction you'd get'.
The reaction from me as a teacher would be calm, measured and de-escalatory. That's my job. If I was to respond in any other way I should be reprimanded, fired, banned from teaching depending on the severity of my response.
I would expect such nonsense from William but I'm surprised to see you justifying this - I have you down as one of the sensible ones.
Motorway‑by‑Motorway Breakdown of “The North” Signage
🚗 M1 (London → Leeds) Appears from North London: As soon as you join the M1 heading out of London, you’ll see “The North” alongside “Watford”, “Luton”, etc.
Continues past Milton Keynes: Still labelled “The North” through Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire.
Fades out around Nottingham / East Midlands: Once you reach the Nottingham/Derby/Leicester triangle, the signage shifts to specific cities like Sheffield, Leeds, and Doncaster.
Gone entirely by Sheffield: At this point, you’re considered in the North.
🚗 M6 (Birmingham → Carlisle) Appears south of Birmingham: Approaching the West Midlands, “The North (M6)” is common on the M5, M40, and M42 feeders.
Strongest around the M6/M5 junction: This is one of the most famous “The North” sign clusters.
Disappears north of Wolverhampton: Once you’re past the Black Country, signs switch to Manchester, Liverpool, and Preston.
Replaced by Scotland references near Carlisle: By the time you reach Cumbria, signs point to Scotland instead of “The North”.
🚗 M40 (London → Birmingham) Appears around High Wycombe: “The North (M6)” appears long before you reach Birmingham.
Continues to the M42 interchange: The M40 uses “The North” as a directional label until you hit the Birmingham orbital.
Stops once you join the M42/M6: After that, you’re in the Midlands and the signage becomes more specific.
🚗 M4 (London → South Wales) Appears only near the M25/M40 junction: The M4 itself doesn’t go north, but signs for “The North (M40)” appear around Heathrow and the M25.
Disappears once you’re west of Reading: Because the M4 isn’t a northbound route, “The North” is only used to direct you to the M40 or M1.
🚗 M5 (Birmingham → Exeter) Appears only near Birmingham: “The North (M6)” appears at the northern end of the M5.
Gone once you head south: The M5 is a south‑west motorway, so “The North” is only used to direct you away from it.
🚗 M62 (Liverpool → Hull) Almost never uses “The North”: Because the M62 runs across the North, not toward it.
Uses city names instead: Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull — no regional labels needed.
🚗 M25 (London orbital) Appears on northern and western quadrants: Signs like “The North (M1)” or “The North (M40)” are common.
Stops once you’re directed onto the correct motorway: The M25 itself never takes you to “The North”; it only funnels you toward the M1 or M40.
Road signs are only really to point you in a direction. You are clearly in the North in North Yorkshire, yet you still get road signs pointing you towards THE NORTH or THE SOUTH on the A1 so you kniw whether to join on this side or the other.
Surely in Yorkshire, they only refer to Yorkshire itself?
Very nice header btw @TSE. As an enthusiast of tgis sort of perceptual geigraphy I am fascinated.
It confirms my view that Lincolnshire is the only county to be in the north (Scunthorpe, Grimsby), the Midlands (Lincoln) and the south (Spalding, the Deepings).
Motorway‑by‑Motorway Breakdown of “The North” Signage
🚗 M1 (London → Leeds) Appears from North London: As soon as you join the M1 heading out of London, you’ll see “The North” alongside “Watford”, “Luton”, etc.
Continues past Milton Keynes: Still labelled “The North” through Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire.
Fades out around Nottingham / East Midlands: Once you reach the Nottingham/Derby/Leicester triangle, the signage shifts to specific cities like Sheffield, Leeds, and Doncaster.
Gone entirely by Sheffield: At this point, you’re considered in the North.
🚗 M6 (Birmingham → Carlisle) Appears south of Birmingham: Approaching the West Midlands, “The North (M6)” is common on the M5, M40, and M42 feeders.
Strongest around the M6/M5 junction: This is one of the most famous “The North” sign clusters.
Disappears north of Wolverhampton: Once you’re past the Black Country, signs switch to Manchester, Liverpool, and Preston.
Replaced by Scotland references near Carlisle: By the time you reach Cumbria, signs point to Scotland instead of “The North”.
🚗 M40 (London → Birmingham) Appears around High Wycombe: “The North (M6)” appears long before you reach Birmingham.
Continues to the M42 interchange: The M40 uses “The North” as a directional label until you hit the Birmingham orbital.
Stops once you join the M42/M6: After that, you’re in the Midlands and the signage becomes more specific.
🚗 M4 (London → South Wales) Appears only near the M25/M40 junction: The M4 itself doesn’t go north, but signs for “The North (M40)” appear around Heathrow and the M25.
Disappears once you’re west of Reading: Because the M4 isn’t a northbound route, “The North” is only used to direct you to the M40 or M1.
🚗 M5 (Birmingham → Exeter) Appears only near Birmingham: “The North (M6)” appears at the northern end of the M5.
Gone once you head south: The M5 is a south‑west motorway, so “The North” is only used to direct you away from it.
🚗 M62 (Liverpool → Hull) Almost never uses “The North”: Because the M62 runs across the North, not toward it.
Uses city names instead: Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull — no regional labels needed.
🚗 M25 (London orbital) Appears on northern and western quadrants: Signs like “The North (M1)” or “The North (M40)” are common.
Stops once you’re directed onto the correct motorway: The M25 itself never takes you to “The North”; it only funnels you toward the M1 or M40.
Yeah, that’s wrong. There’s one just south of Leeds in the run up to the M1/M621 split.
This doesn't exonerate Mr Ross in the slightest. What he did was despicable and will doubtless go unpunished.
It's an awful and needless tragedy and the bastards who have been dragging this poor woman through the mud have been utterly dreadful. We have seen the footage, which ever way you look at it Mr Ross had no justifiable reason to assassinate her.
If you want to say this woman's death is a tragedy, that we should pray for her soul as Christians and Americans, then I agree with you.
But the media dishonesty about this officer is an all-time moment in shameless press propaganda.
Does this law enforcement officer have a family? Yes. Did he he get seriously injured by a vehicle just six months ago? Yes. Did he have reason to fear for his life? Yes. Does he have every right to safety while he's doing his job? Yes.
I want our law enforcement officers to do their jobs and come home safely to their family. If you don't like the immigration policy of the Trump administration, attack me. Leave our law enforcement alone.
And it's time for the press to finally tell the truth about this story.
Motorway‑by‑Motorway Breakdown of “The North” Signage
🚗 M1 (London → Leeds) Appears from North London: As soon as you join the M1 heading out of London, you’ll see “The North” alongside “Watford”, “Luton”, etc.
Continues past Milton Keynes: Still labelled “The North” through Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire.
Fades out around Nottingham / East Midlands: Once you reach the Nottingham/Derby/Leicester triangle, the signage shifts to specific cities like Sheffield, Leeds, and Doncaster.
Gone entirely by Sheffield: At this point, you’re considered in the North.
🚗 M6 (Birmingham → Carlisle) Appears south of Birmingham: Approaching the West Midlands, “The North (M6)” is common on the M5, M40, and M42 feeders.
Strongest around the M6/M5 junction: This is one of the most famous “The North” sign clusters.
Disappears north of Wolverhampton: Once you’re past the Black Country, signs switch to Manchester, Liverpool, and Preston.
Replaced by Scotland references near Carlisle: By the time you reach Cumbria, signs point to Scotland instead of “The North”.
🚗 M40 (London → Birmingham) Appears around High Wycombe: “The North (M6)” appears long before you reach Birmingham.
Continues to the M42 interchange: The M40 uses “The North” as a directional label until you hit the Birmingham orbital.
Stops once you join the M42/M6: After that, you’re in the Midlands and the signage becomes more specific.
🚗 M4 (London → South Wales) Appears only near the M25/M40 junction: The M4 itself doesn’t go north, but signs for “The North (M40)” appear around Heathrow and the M25.
Disappears once you’re west of Reading: Because the M4 isn’t a northbound route, “The North” is only used to direct you to the M40 or M1.
🚗 M5 (Birmingham → Exeter) Appears only near Birmingham: “The North (M6)” appears at the northern end of the M5.
Gone once you head south: The M5 is a south‑west motorway, so “The North” is only used to direct you away from it.
🚗 M62 (Liverpool → Hull) Almost never uses “The North”: Because the M62 runs across the North, not toward it.
Uses city names instead: Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull — no regional labels needed.
🚗 M25 (London orbital) Appears on northern and western quadrants: Signs like “The North (M1)” or “The North (M40)” are common.
Stops once you’re directed onto the correct motorway: The M25 itself never takes you to “The North”; it only funnels you toward the M1 or M40.
Yeah, that’s wrong. There’s one just south of Leeds in the run up to the M1/M621 split.
I think there are also some near the M1/A64 junction and also possibly Darlington but I’m too lazy to find them right now.
I wonder if full-fat Gemini would be better than Copilot as google’s mapping is much better.
The data on road signs text and locations must be on a database somewhere because navigation apps will generally tell you what is on the sign for the exit you want to take from a roundabout, for example, but no-one appears to have put this up anywhere that you can easily find it on the web.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Motorway‑by‑Motorway Breakdown of “The North” Signage
🚗 M1 (London → Leeds) Appears from North London: As soon as you join the M1 heading out of London, you’ll see “The North” alongside “Watford”, “Luton”, etc.
Continues past Milton Keynes: Still labelled “The North” through Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire.
Fades out around Nottingham / East Midlands: Once you reach the Nottingham/Derby/Leicester triangle, the signage shifts to specific cities like Sheffield, Leeds, and Doncaster.
Gone entirely by Sheffield: At this point, you’re considered in the North.
🚗 M6 (Birmingham → Carlisle) Appears south of Birmingham: Approaching the West Midlands, “The North (M6)” is common on the M5, M40, and M42 feeders.
Strongest around the M6/M5 junction: This is one of the most famous “The North” sign clusters.
Disappears north of Wolverhampton: Once you’re past the Black Country, signs switch to Manchester, Liverpool, and Preston.
Replaced by Scotland references near Carlisle: By the time you reach Cumbria, signs point to Scotland instead of “The North”.
🚗 M40 (London → Birmingham) Appears around High Wycombe: “The North (M6)” appears long before you reach Birmingham.
Continues to the M42 interchange: The M40 uses “The North” as a directional label until you hit the Birmingham orbital.
Stops once you join the M42/M6: After that, you’re in the Midlands and the signage becomes more specific.
🚗 M4 (London → South Wales) Appears only near the M25/M40 junction: The M4 itself doesn’t go north, but signs for “The North (M40)” appear around Heathrow and the M25.
Disappears once you’re west of Reading: Because the M4 isn’t a northbound route, “The North” is only used to direct you to the M40 or M1.
🚗 M5 (Birmingham → Exeter) Appears only near Birmingham: “The North (M6)” appears at the northern end of the M5.
Gone once you head south: The M5 is a south‑west motorway, so “The North” is only used to direct you away from it.
🚗 M62 (Liverpool → Hull) Almost never uses “The North”: Because the M62 runs across the North, not toward it.
Uses city names instead: Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull — no regional labels needed.
🚗 M25 (London orbital) Appears on northern and western quadrants: Signs like “The North (M1)” or “The North (M40)” are common.
Stops once you’re directed onto the correct motorway: The M25 itself never takes you to “The North”; it only funnels you toward the M1 or M40.
Yeah, that’s wrong. There’s one just south of Leeds in the run up to the M1/M621 split.
I think there are also some near the M1/A64 junction and also possibly Darlington but I’m too lazy to find them right now.
I wonder if full-fat Gemini would be better than Copilot as google’s mapping is much better.
The data on road signs text and locations must be on a database somewhere because navigation apps will generally tell you what is on the sign for the exit you want to take from a roundabout, for example, but no-one appears to have put this up anywhere that you can easily find it on the web.
It maybe part of the OS’s premium offering? OTOH it’s possible the Google is doing some fancy object and image recognition for some of their stuff.
Liz Truss - Northerner Margaret Thatcher - Southerner
Thatcher was from Grantham. That's hardly the South, but then neither is it the North, me duck.
But she lived most of her life in the South, from University onwards. She became Southern by choice, being MP for Finchley, and retiring to Dulwich.
Its like social class in that while there is some lag, it is implausible to claim to be working class and be a senior barrister.
Finchley and Dulwich are London more than the South.
If your parents were working class and you went to a state comprehensive or academy or high school you can probably always claim to have been working class by upbringing even if now middle class by profession
If you want to say this woman's death is a tragedy, that we should pray for her soul as Christians and Americans, then I agree with you.
But the media dishonesty about this officer is an all-time moment in shameless press propaganda.
Does this law enforcement officer have a family? Yes. Did he he get seriously injured by a vehicle just six months ago? Yes. Did he have reason to fear for his life? Yes. Does he have every right to safety while he's doing his job? Yes.
I want our law enforcement officers to do their jobs and come home safely to their family. If you don't like the immigration policy of the Trump administration, attack me. Leave our law enforcement alone.
And it's time for the press to finally tell the truth about this story.
A single word comes to mind for Vance and it rhymes with James Hunt.
First Syria. Then Venezuala. Now Iran? And after that?
Wonder if Kim Jong Un plays dominoes.
Yes, Syria has an ex-al Qaeda guy in charge, Venezuela has a Chavista as President, so presumably the US will ensure a radical Shi'a cleric rules Iran, and a communist rules North Korea.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Are you really saying Yorkshire is the South?
I mean really?
Friends of mine from Bolton consider Sheffield to be the Midlands.
Some of my best friends claim to have passed through there on their way to salmon fishing in Scotland.
Though I do have the odd friend who happens to be a Duke or Marquess or Earl with Estates in rural Northumberland, Cheshire or Yorkshire I stay with on the way from time to time
Are you still on this nonsense? Neither the BBC nor the Guardian have been supporting the Mullahs. What they have done is report what the Mullahs have said, that's all.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Are you really saying Yorkshire is the South?
I mean really?
Friends of mine from Bolton consider Sheffield to be the Midlands.
I think we should go by self-identification really.
If you go into a city centre pub in Sheffield and insist to the locals they are Midlanders, will you get out alive?
First Syria. Then Venezuala. Now Iran? And after that?
Wonder if Kim Jong Un plays dominoes.
He's protected by China.
What should the government do about Iran? Trump has made threats to the regime over civilian casualties. Ultimately they have long been the world's biggest state sponsor of terror and are currently supporting the worst military aggression in Europe for 80 years. You also have a ready made successor in Pahlavi who talks the talk on democracy.
As Europeans, do we need to be more ruthless? (embrace the inner carnivore as Macron put it).
The North begins at the Yorkshire and Cheshire borders.
The South begins at the Oxfordshire, Gloucestershire, Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire borders.
Everywhere else in England is in the Midlands or East Anglia
To bring back an old map I created for this last time:
Split into population thirds, by constituency. Shading is population density.
Of course, this doesn't tell you anything about culture.
Sorry Wales - you are in the Midlands.
It's an interesting alternative definition - the beginning of "the North" is defined by the point at which you've passed 50% of the population of the country.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Are you really saying Yorkshire is the South?
I mean really?
I've been to Sheffield a few times (most recently September), not once have I seen any station signs saying "Sheffield Midland".
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Sheffield is certainly North, Peterborough is East Anglia, not South
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
The North begins at the Yorkshire and Cheshire borders.
The South begins at the Oxfordshire, Gloucestershire, Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire borders.
Everywhere else in England is in the Midlands or East Anglia
To bring back an old map I created for this last time:
Split into population thirds, by constituency. Shading is population density.
Of course, this doesn't tell you anything about culture.
Sorry Wales - you are in the Midlands.
It's an interesting alternative definition - the beginning of "the North" is defined by the point at which you've passed 50% of the population of the country.
Unfortunately I've now blown my image allowance, so I can't illustrate that.
I can tell you that the first constituency in the "North" by that definition is Coventry North West.
I imagine the population is more bottom heavy than the census data so it may have shifted slightly south now.
Motorway‑by‑Motorway Breakdown of “The North” Signage
🚗 M1 (London → Leeds) Appears from North London: As soon as you join the M1 heading out of London, you’ll see “The North” alongside “Watford”, “Luton”, etc.
Continues past Milton Keynes: Still labelled “The North” through Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire.
Fades out around Nottingham / East Midlands: Once you reach the Nottingham/Derby/Leicester triangle, the signage shifts to specific cities like Sheffield, Leeds, and Doncaster.
Gone entirely by Sheffield: At this point, you’re considered in the North.
🚗 M6 (Birmingham → Carlisle) Appears south of Birmingham: Approaching the West Midlands, “The North (M6)” is common on the M5, M40, and M42 feeders.
Strongest around the M6/M5 junction: This is one of the most famous “The North” sign clusters.
Disappears north of Wolverhampton: Once you’re past the Black Country, signs switch to Manchester, Liverpool, and Preston.
Replaced by Scotland references near Carlisle: By the time you reach Cumbria, signs point to Scotland instead of “The North”.
🚗 M40 (London → Birmingham) Appears around High Wycombe: “The North (M6)” appears long before you reach Birmingham.
Continues to the M42 interchange: The M40 uses “The North” as a directional label until you hit the Birmingham orbital.
Stops once you join the M42/M6: After that, you’re in the Midlands and the signage becomes more specific.
🚗 M4 (London → South Wales) Appears only near the M25/M40 junction: The M4 itself doesn’t go north, but signs for “The North (M40)” appear around Heathrow and the M25.
Disappears once you’re west of Reading: Because the M4 isn’t a northbound route, “The North” is only used to direct you to the M40 or M1.
🚗 M5 (Birmingham → Exeter) Appears only near Birmingham: “The North (M6)” appears at the northern end of the M5.
Gone once you head south: The M5 is a south‑west motorway, so “The North” is only used to direct you away from it.
🚗 M62 (Liverpool → Hull) Almost never uses “The North”: Because the M62 runs across the North, not toward it.
Uses city names instead: Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull — no regional labels needed.
🚗 M25 (London orbital) Appears on northern and western quadrants: Signs like “The North (M1)” or “The North (M40)” are common.
Stops once you’re directed onto the correct motorway: The M25 itself never takes you to “The North”; it only funnels you toward the M1 or M40.
Interesting how Copilot doesn't know that the logical and symmetrical approach with the M5 would be Exeter - Birmingham. South to North, as in the other cases.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
I have been pulled by the cops in the US who were far too keen to be waving their guns around and for a Brit its a scaru experience.
The advice i was given from Americans proved spot on. Show your hands clearly and away from the wheel, no sudden movements or reaching into pockets or glovebox. Turn the engine off and if they ask for keys throw them out the window and make it clear you are obeying orders at all times and no intention to try to flee.
As you say so many Americans carry guns the police will make assumptions if you starr digging around under the seat or glovebox without being asked to do so.
Motorway‑by‑Motorway Breakdown of “The North” Signage
🚗 M1 (London → Leeds) Appears from North London: As soon as you join the M1 heading out of London, you’ll see “The North” alongside “Watford”, “Luton”, etc.
Continues past Milton Keynes: Still labelled “The North” through Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire.
Fades out around Nottingham / East Midlands: Once you reach the Nottingham/Derby/Leicester triangle, the signage shifts to specific cities like Sheffield, Leeds, and Doncaster.
Gone entirely by Sheffield: At this point, you’re considered in the North.
🚗 M6 (Birmingham → Carlisle) Appears south of Birmingham: Approaching the West Midlands, “The North (M6)” is common on the M5, M40, and M42 feeders.
Strongest around the M6/M5 junction: This is one of the most famous “The North” sign clusters.
Disappears north of Wolverhampton: Once you’re past the Black Country, signs switch to Manchester, Liverpool, and Preston.
Replaced by Scotland references near Carlisle: By the time you reach Cumbria, signs point to Scotland instead of “The North”.
🚗 M40 (London → Birmingham) Appears around High Wycombe: “The North (M6)” appears long before you reach Birmingham.
Continues to the M42 interchange: The M40 uses “The North” as a directional label until you hit the Birmingham orbital.
Stops once you join the M42/M6: After that, you’re in the Midlands and the signage becomes more specific.
🚗 M4 (London → South Wales) Appears only near the M25/M40 junction: The M4 itself doesn’t go north, but signs for “The North (M40)” appear around Heathrow and the M25.
Disappears once you’re west of Reading: Because the M4 isn’t a northbound route, “The North” is only used to direct you to the M40 or M1.
🚗 M5 (Birmingham → Exeter) Appears only near Birmingham: “The North (M6)” appears at the northern end of the M5.
Gone once you head south: The M5 is a south‑west motorway, so “The North” is only used to direct you away from it.
🚗 M62 (Liverpool → Hull) Almost never uses “The North”: Because the M62 runs across the North, not toward it.
Uses city names instead: Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull — no regional labels needed.
🚗 M25 (London orbital) Appears on northern and western quadrants: Signs like “The North (M1)” or “The North (M40)” are common.
Stops once you’re directed onto the correct motorway: The M25 itself never takes you to “The North”; it only funnels you toward the M1 or M40.
Very interesting, though its best efforts don't really change anything. Once south of Shap the north is not the same. And you start entering liberal democrat territory.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
I read some commentary on the protests in Iran recently. The writer was berating those who were worried that the State was successfully crushing the protests because there had been a few dozen deaths as a result of State violence. They pointed out that an average of more than 50 people die every day in Iranian road traffic collisions, and so if the death toll from the protests was below that level it wasn't going to be enough to scare people away from protesting - they take greater risks on the roads every day.
This seemed like a remarkable figure, since the population of Iran (~90 million) is not much larger than that UK (~70 million) where the death toll on the roads is ~4 per day, as discussed on PB.com. recently. I looked it up and, indeed, more than 20,000 people died on Iranian roads in 2023. Life is simply cheaper there.
So it is, I think, with the US and gun deaths. They accept an astonishing level of violent death by firearms because they are used to it. And so this also means that, individually, the threshold for using guns is simply that much lower. It's just not such a big deal to kill someone with a gun, because it's not that unusual.
Over Christmas I naturally watched many Christmas films, including Die Hard, and it's notable that one of the narrative arcs that concluded at the end of the film is the one of the noble cop who has chosen desk duty because he lost his self-confidence after shooting and killing a teenager, but happily he regains this self-confidence by shooting and killing a bad guy as the dramatic finale to the film.
Have only just seen the interesting conclusion to last nite's match and I can see why you were a little irritated. Martinelli shoud have been sent off, although possibly not for the reasons you think.
He threw the ball at a grounded opponent. I had just this situation in a game I reffed long ago and I have had the luxury of many years to contemplate the correct action. All other things being equal, it's a booking, but not a red card (unless it is so egregious as to constitute violent conduct, but normally it would not.)
The shove on the stricken player is a separate incident, and again it is a yellow card. It is undoubtedly ungentlemanly conduct, but not violent. This second yellow then makes it a sending off, which is I think the outcome you wanted though not necessarily by the same process of reasoning as you followed.
Sorry for the delay in posting this but I know how much you value my opinion and I didn't want you to think I didn't have one.
This would be definitive in normal times. But many of us are not convinced that 'the rule of law' now means in the USA what it means in the UK. Executive order + national guard/other military intervention might 'trump' the rule of law. can we be certain it won't? I am not.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
Sensible laws on gun ownership - where would they start? The USA seems to be overrun with guns of all kinds. Lots of places are out of reach of law enforcement and self defence is the only defence they have. And they seem very keen on the idea that guns are necessary to defend ordinary people from an over-reaching government. What's the first step in changing a culture like that?
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
I read some commentary on the protests in Iran recently. The writer was berating those who were worried that the State was successfully crushing the protests because there had been a few dozen deaths as a result of State violence. They pointed out that an average of more than 50 people die every day in Iranian road traffic collisions, and so if the death toll from the protests was below that level it wasn't going to be enough to scare people away from protesting - they take greater risks on the roads every day.
This seemed like a remarkable figure, since the population of Iran (~90 million) is not much larger than that UK (~70 million) where the death toll on the roads is ~4 per day, as discussed on PB.com. recently. I looked it up and, indeed, more than 20,000 people died on Iranian roads in 2023. Life is simply cheaper there.
So it is, I think, with the US and gun deaths. They accept an astonishing level of violent death by firearms because they are used to it. And so this also means that, individually, the threshold for using guns is simply that much lower. It's just not such a big deal to kill someone with a gun, because it's not that unusual.
Over Christmas I naturally watched many Christmas films, including Die Hard, and it's notable that one of the narrative arcs that concluded at the end of the film is the one of the noble cop who has chosen desk duty because he lost his self-confidence after shooting and killing a teenager, but happily he regains this self-confidence by shooting and killing a bad guy as the dramatic finale to the film.
That's a pleasantly cerebral post, LP, but the explanation of gun crime rates in the USA is far simpler. It's down to the NRA and the colossal amount of lolly tied up in the gun business.
American roads are as safe as ours. They value life just as much as us. They just haven't the wherewithal to take on the gun lobby.
This would be definitive in normal times. But many of us are not convinced that 'the rule of law' now means in the USA what it means in the UK. Executive order + national guard/other military intervention might 'trump' the rule of law. can we be certain it won't? I am not.
If nothing else, it's now practically impossible to believe Trump 2.0 is just going to calmly accept the results of any elections he doesn't like.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
Sensible laws on gun ownership - where would they start? The USA seems to be overrun with guns of all kinds. Lots of places are out of reach of law enforcement and self defence is the only defence they have. And they seem very keen on the idea that guns are necessary to defend ordinary people from an over-reaching government. What's the first step in changing a culture like that?
First step is to start voting for candidates who support greater gun control. It's a long road, but that would be a start.
Do we still have them? I haven’t driven very far north for a long time. But I remember them from trips to Glossop (where my Dad’s from; definitely in the North, even though it’s in Derbyshire, as a kid)
For me it's about motorway service stations. The South stops with Newport Pagnell and the North starts at Tibshelf. I don't know much about the stretch in between except that it tends to decide general elections and usually in favour of the tories.
This would be definitive in normal times. But many of us are not convinced that 'the rule of law' now means in the USA what it means in the UK. Executive order + national guard/other military intervention might 'trump' the rule of law. can we be certain it won't? I am not.
If nothing else, it's now practically impossible to believe Trump 2.0 is just going to calmly accept the results of any elections he doesn't like.
He is obsessed with the new ballroom being bulletproof 'for the next inauguration'
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
Wait, what?!
These people are specifically trained to deal with the stress of armed response. You and William are saying it's not sensible to provoke them with...a camera and a polite assertion of your rights as a citizen?!
The analogy in teaching would be to say to a student 'its not sensible to question a teacher while they are dealing with an unruly pupil - see what reaction you'd get'.
The reaction from me as a teacher would be calm, measured and de-escalatory. That's my job. If I was to respond in any other way I should be reprimanded, fired, banned from teaching depending on the severity of my response.
I would expect such nonsense from William but I'm surprised to see you justifying this - I have you down as one of the sensible ones.
Well that's okay then if they're 'trained'.
And what if something goes wrong or something happens unexpectedly ?
The sensible thing is not to go up to armed men undertaking some potentially violent activity and stick a camera in their faces and then argue with them.
Consider if there was some armed police operation happening on your own street. Would you go up to them and stick a camera in their faces ? I certainly wouldn't because it wouldn't do any good and it might end up with very bad consequences for me or someone else.
This would be definitive in normal times. But many of us are not convinced that 'the rule of law' now means in the USA what it means in the UK. Executive order + national guard/other military intervention might 'trump' the rule of law. can we be certain it won't? I am not.
If the rule of law is now genuinely a dead letter, then the US financial system is a dead letter too. Trump's comments on denying repayments on Treasuries to countries that he doesn't like ought to torpedo the US bond markets... Unfortunately the UK is the second largest holder of US treasuries, behind Japan but ahead of China.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
I read some commentary on the protests in Iran recently. The writer was berating those who were worried that the State was successfully crushing the protests because there had been a few dozen deaths as a result of State violence. They pointed out that an average of more than 50 people die every day in Iranian road traffic collisions, and so if the death toll from the protests was below that level it wasn't going to be enough to scare people away from protesting - they take greater risks on the roads every day.
This seemed like a remarkable figure, since the population of Iran (~90 million) is not much larger than that UK (~70 million) where the death toll on the roads is ~4 per day, as discussed on PB.com. recently. I looked it up and, indeed, more than 20,000 people died on Iranian roads in 2023. Life is simply cheaper there.
So it is, I think, with the US and gun deaths. They accept an astonishing level of violent death by firearms because they are used to it. And so this also means that, individually, the threshold for using guns is simply that much lower. It's just not such a big deal to kill someone with a gun, because it's not that unusual.
Over Christmas I naturally watched many Christmas films, including Die Hard, and it's notable that one of the narrative arcs that concluded at the end of the film is the one of the noble cop who has chosen desk duty because he lost his self-confidence after shooting and killing a teenager, but happily he regains this self-confidence by shooting and killing a bad guy as the dramatic finale to the film.
That's a pleasantly cerebral post, LP, but the explanation of gun crime rates in the USA is far simpler. It's down to the NRA and the colossal amount of lolly tied up in the gun business.
American roads are as safe as ours. They value life just as much as us. They just haven't the wherewithal to take on the gun lobby.
The Americans have 6x as many road deaths as we do per capita. It's even worse for pedestrians, particularly after taking into account how little walking they do. It's why we have to push back hard on the recent trend towards SUVs and pick-up trucks before we see the same massive increase in fatalities.
I think they probably value their own lives as much as we do. Other people? Not so much.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Sheffield is certainly North, Peterborough is East Anglia, not South
Personally I've always regarded Sheffield as a frontier town.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Everyone is obsessed about their 'rights' in the USA.
If they were as concerned about their responsibilities then the country would be in a lot better shape.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
I'm at the Reform rally at the Excel centre in London. So far this evening I've chatted with a couple of Hindu pensioners, a Tube driver, a soldier, a Christian youth worker, a millionaire property developer and a violinist. This absolutely chimes with all of the published polling. Reform is the party most like modern Britain. Unlike Labour it represents business and the working class. Unlike the Tories it can win in Wales, Scotland and the North. Unlike the LibDems it is actually liberal and democratic! I'm excited to be a small part of what @Nigel_Farage is building. A truly national party that is this fast declining country's last, best chance.
I'm at the Reform rally at the Excel centre in London. So far this evening I've chatted with a couple of Hindu pensioners, a Tube driver, a soldier, a Christian youth worker, a millionaire property developer and a violinist. This absolutely chimes with all of the published polling. Reform is the party most like modern Britain. Unlike Labour it represents business and the working class. Unlike the Tories it can win in Wales, Scotland and the North. Unlike the LibDems it is actually liberal and democratic! I'm excited to be a small part of what @Nigel_Farage is building. A truly national party that is this fast declining country's last, best chance.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Are you really saying Yorkshire is the South?
I mean really?
No, I'm saying that Sheffield is in the Midlands. The North begins at Rotherham.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
I think it's far deeper than that, in both police and societal culture.
USA police are tolerated acting like sheriffs in the wild-west, with all the personal behaviour that allows. Many of them are in tiny police departments, run by elected rather than properly trained individuals, inadequate professional training, with little effective accountability especially across States, a bias towards immunity from prosecution, and a tendency to dehumanise anyone. Joe Arpiao, anyone?
As a specific, here we have risk management of police chases by a third party for example, and tactics that have a high risk require authorisation by a third party in the control room.
UK (and I think probably Western Europe, though I do not know all of it in detail) are far more professional, and recognise that the public are human and give consideration. That is even with the many problems we hear about.
There's a deeper societal thing, too. In the USA afaics violence is an accepted and assumed currency of interaction. That's a huge difference.
If you talk funny, you're from the South. If you talk "foony", you're from the North.
Your post is illustrative of Southerners almost getting it, but falling short. Northerners pronounce the U in funny as a U. Southerners are more likely to pronounce it as an A. Internally you know this, but you cannot accept that Northerners are right on something, so you make out northerners pronounce it as OO, which clearly they don't.
The foot strut split is about no longer pronouncing the OO in words like look and book. Stoke on Trent notably still pronounces the OO. Say "lOOk it's a bOOk nOOk" to sound like a Stokie.
The northern pronunciation of the 'u' in funny might be better called the strut - strat split. It's got nothing to do with the OO diphthong. I've heard strut pronounced 'strat' in Luton enough times. I believe it is common in Essex too.
And there was me thinking that the foot-strut spit was a Crossfit exercise.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
I can't follow this. Are you suggesting that observing law enforcement is flouting an American law? Either you're mistaken, or you're right and America is already a fascist state.
I'm at the Reform rally at the Excel centre in London. So far this evening I've chatted with a couple of Hindu pensioners, a Tube driver, a soldier, a Christian youth worker, a millionaire property developer and a violinist. This absolutely chimes with all of the published polling. Reform is the party most like modern Britain. Unlike Labour it represents business and the working class. Unlike the Tories it can win in Wales, Scotland and the North. Unlike the LibDems it is actually liberal and democratic! I'm excited to be a small part of what @Nigel_Farage is building. A truly national party that is this fast declining country's last, best chance.
(I'm being carefully non-commital. I've dealt with Montie enough to have some respect for him, but I think that - like IDS - he has rather lost his roots, and moved too close to Danny Kruger type views.)
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
Wait, what?!
These people are specifically trained to deal with the stress of armed response. You and William are saying it's not sensible to provoke them with...a camera and a polite assertion of your rights as a citizen?!
The analogy in teaching would be to say to a student 'its not sensible to question a teacher while they are dealing with an unruly pupil - see what reaction you'd get'.
The reaction from me as a teacher would be calm, measured and de-escalatory. That's my job. If I was to respond in any other way I should be reprimanded, fired, banned from teaching depending on the severity of my response.
I would expect such nonsense from William but I'm surprised to see you justifying this - I have you down as one of the sensible ones.
Well that's okay then they're trained.
And what if something goes wrong or something happens unexpectedly ?
The sensible thing is not to go up to armed men undertaking some potentially violent activity and stick a camera in their faces and then argue with them.
Consider if there was some armed police operation happening on your own street. Would you go up to them and stick a camera in their faces ? I certainly wouldn't because it wouldn't do any good and it might end up with very bad consequences for me or someone else.
You'd be identifying more with the tank in Tiananmen then. That student was being a real pain.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Sheffield is certainly North, Peterborough is East Anglia, not South
Peterborough isn't in the sticky out bit, so not East Anglia.
I'm at the Reform rally at the Excel centre in London. So far this evening I've chatted with a couple of Hindu pensioners, a Tube driver, a soldier, a Christian youth worker, a millionaire property developer and a violinist. This absolutely chimes with all of the published polling. Reform is the party most like modern Britain. Unlike Labour it represents business and the working class. Unlike the Tories it can win in Wales, Scotland and the North. Unlike the LibDems it is actually liberal and democratic! I'm excited to be a small part of what @Nigel_Farage is building. A truly national party that is this fast declining country's last, best chance.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
At which point you need to make a rational judgement, and decide where you stand.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
Wait, what?!
These people are specifically trained to deal with the stress of armed response. You and William are saying it's not sensible to provoke them with...a camera and a polite assertion of your rights as a citizen?!
The analogy in teaching would be to say to a student 'its not sensible to question a teacher while they are dealing with an unruly pupil - see what reaction you'd get'.
The reaction from me as a teacher would be calm, measured and de-escalatory. That's my job. If I was to respond in any other way I should be reprimanded, fired, banned from teaching depending on the severity of my response.
I would expect such nonsense from William but I'm surprised to see you justifying this - I have you down as one of the sensible ones.
Well that's okay then if they're 'trained'.
And what if something goes wrong or something happens unexpectedly ?
The sensible thing is not to go up to armed men undertaking some potentially violent activity and stick a camera in their faces and then argue with them.
Consider if there was some armed police operation happening on your own street. Would you go up to them and stick a camera in their faces ? I certainly wouldn't because it wouldn't do any good and it might end up with very bad consequences for me or someone else.
There have been a few times when I've come into contact with armed British police. A couple of times I was really nervous about it.
Once I returned home to find our street cordoned off, so I had to ask a copper for permission to cross the barrier and walk home - a mental health patient armed with a knife was in a sort of hostage situation. You could tell it was an active situation and the police thought they might have to use their weapons.
The second time was returning south to London from the G8 protests at Gleneagles. Our specially chartered protest train had been delayed after the July 7th terrorist attack that morning. We eventually arrived into Euston late in the evening to be met by a line of armed police we had to walk along, who had clearly all categorised us as, "violent criminal scum".
The armed MOD Plod never made me feel nervous, and their dogs are very well trained. But we were all following the rules of how to behave when interacting with them.
It's yet more "the midterms are coming, everything is going to be alright" thinking. It would be naive to think that any Republican controlled state will hold a free and fair election. The are lots of countries that hold elections and are de facto under the control of one party or person.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
I can't follow this. Are you suggesting that observing law enforcement is flouting an American law? Either you're mistaken, or you're right and America is already a fascist state.
Whatever horrors Trump perpetrates Richard will react with a variation of "but the Dems ...". It borders on the pathological.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
I can't follow this. Are you suggesting that observing law enforcement is flouting an American law? Either you're mistaken, or you're right and America is already a fascist state.
There are other laws than the 'constitutional right' to shove a camera into a cop's face.
Immigration laws have been flouted for decades - which is what lies behind the whole ICE deployment issue.
Or is it okay for laws to be flouted as long as the 'correct side' is doing it ?
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Everyone is obsessed about their 'rights' in the USA.
If they were as concerned about their responsibilities then the country would be in a lot better shape.
I very much agree there. But the system mitigates against the possibility.
The greatest things they could do would be to move to a social health care system (of whatever sort), deal with endemic guns and similar.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
Wait, what?!
These people are specifically trained to deal with the stress of armed response. You and William are saying it's not sensible to provoke them with...a camera and a polite assertion of your rights as a citizen?!
The analogy in teaching would be to say to a student 'its not sensible to question a teacher while they are dealing with an unruly pupil - see what reaction you'd get'.
The reaction from me as a teacher would be calm, measured and de-escalatory. That's my job. If I was to respond in any other way I should be reprimanded, fired, banned from teaching depending on the severity of my response.
I would expect such nonsense from William but I'm surprised to see you justifying this - I have you down as one of the sensible ones.
Well that's okay then if they're 'trained'.
And what if something goes wrong or something happens unexpectedly ?
The sensible thing is not to go up to armed men undertaking some potentially violent activity and stick a camera in their faces and then argue with them.
Consider if there was some armed police operation happening on your own street. Would you go up to them and stick a camera in their faces ? I certainly wouldn't because it wouldn't do any good and it might end up with very bad consequences for me or someone else.
In a rich world democracy, one is entitled to expect the agents of the State to be something more disciplined than a trigger-happy militia.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
I read some commentary on the protests in Iran recently. The writer was berating those who were worried that the State was successfully crushing the protests because there had been a few dozen deaths as a result of State violence. They pointed out that an average of more than 50 people die every day in Iranian road traffic collisions, and so if the death toll from the protests was below that level it wasn't going to be enough to scare people away from protesting - they take greater risks on the roads every day.
This seemed like a remarkable figure, since the population of Iran (~90 million) is not much larger than that UK (~70 million) where the death toll on the roads is ~4 per day, as discussed on PB.com. recently. I looked it up and, indeed, more than 20,000 people died on Iranian roads in 2023. Life is simply cheaper there.
So it is, I think, with the US and gun deaths. They accept an astonishing level of violent death by firearms because they are used to it. And so this also means that, individually, the threshold for using guns is simply that much lower. It's just not such a big deal to kill someone with a gun, because it's not that unusual.
Over Christmas I naturally watched many Christmas films, including Die Hard, and it's notable that one of the narrative arcs that concluded at the end of the film is the one of the noble cop who has chosen desk duty because he lost his self-confidence after shooting and killing a teenager, but happily he regains this self-confidence by shooting and killing a bad guy as the dramatic finale to the film.
That's a pleasantly cerebral post, LP, but the explanation of gun crime rates in the USA is far simpler. It's down to the NRA and the colossal amount of lolly tied up in the gun business.
American roads are as safe as ours. They value life just as much as us. They just haven't the wherewithal to take on the gun lobby.
The Americans have 6x as many road deaths as we do per capita. It's even worse for pedestrians, particularly after taking into account how little walking they do. It's why we have to push back hard on the recent trend towards SUVs and pick-up trucks before we see the same massive increase in fatalities.
I think they probably value their own lives as much as we do. Other people? Not so much.
Thanks Eabhal. I need to check that one out. I am going from memory of the last time I looked up the figures. I'm surprised, but you may be right and I will look it up later.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Everyone is obsessed about their 'rights' in the USA.
If they were as concerned about their responsibilities then the country would be in a lot better shape.
I very much agree there. But the system mitigates against the possibility.
The greatest things they could do would be to move to a social health care system (of whatever sort), deal with endemic guns and similar.
But they can't.
Maybe they can. As Churchill pointed out, you can generally rely on them to do the right thing, although only after exhausting every other possibility.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
I can't follow this. Are you suggesting that observing law enforcement is flouting an American law? Either you're mistaken, or you're right and America is already a fascist state.
There are other laws than the 'constitutional right' to shove a camera into a cop's face.
Immigration laws have been flouted for decades - which is what lies behind the whole ICE deployment issue.
Or is it okay for laws to be flouted as long as the 'correct side' is doing it ?
And that's only the third worst attempt at whataboutery so far today.
When BritICE smash down your door and demand your passport, you'll be glad someone like me will be there filming it. Particularly if you get shot for protesting it.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Sheffield is certainly North, Peterborough is East Anglia, not South
Peterborough isn't in the sticky out bit, so not East Anglia.
This would be definitive in normal times. But many of us are not convinced that 'the rule of law' now means in the USA what it means in the UK. Executive order + national guard/other military intervention might 'trump' the rule of law. can we be certain it won't? I am not.
That to me is a fairly naive comment from Josh in the current climate. It's like trying to oppose Farage purely with rationality, which he just does not embrace.
Trumps sees an era of hard power, and he does not give a damn whether he has "authority" or not. The question is who will stop him?
One of the themes in the latest Nat Con Squad podcast (who are young-middle-age intellectuals - eg who write for the. Speccie or the Daily Caller who spend their time trying to justify whatever the Trump-latest happens to be).
At present they want the impeachment of a couple of "rogue Judges" (one being Judge Boasberg) in order to intimidate the rest of the Judiciary.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
I read some commentary on the protests in Iran recently. The writer was berating those who were worried that the State was successfully crushing the protests because there had been a few dozen deaths as a result of State violence. They pointed out that an average of more than 50 people die every day in Iranian road traffic collisions, and so if the death toll from the protests was below that level it wasn't going to be enough to scare people away from protesting - they take greater risks on the roads every day.
This seemed like a remarkable figure, since the population of Iran (~90 million) is not much larger than that UK (~70 million) where the death toll on the roads is ~4 per day, as discussed on PB.com. recently. I looked it up and, indeed, more than 20,000 people died on Iranian roads in 2023. Life is simply cheaper there.
So it is, I think, with the US and gun deaths. They accept an astonishing level of violent death by firearms because they are used to it. And so this also means that, individually, the threshold for using guns is simply that much lower. It's just not such a big deal to kill someone with a gun, because it's not that unusual.
Over Christmas I naturally watched many Christmas films, including Die Hard, and it's notable that one of the narrative arcs that concluded at the end of the film is the one of the noble cop who has chosen desk duty because he lost his self-confidence after shooting and killing a teenager, but happily he regains this self-confidence by shooting and killing a bad guy as the dramatic finale to the film.
That's a pleasantly cerebral post, LP, but the explanation of gun crime rates in the USA is far simpler. It's down to the NRA and the colossal amount of lolly tied up in the gun business.
American roads are as safe as ours. They value life just as much as us. They just haven't the wherewithal to take on the gun lobby.
The Americans have 6x as many road deaths as we do per capita. It's even worse for pedestrians, particularly after taking into account how little walking they do. It's why we have to push back hard on the recent trend towards SUVs and pick-up trucks before we see the same massive increase in fatalities.
I think they probably value their own lives as much as we do. Other people? Not so much.
Thanks Eabhal. I need to check that one out. I am going from memory of the last time I looked up the figures. I'm surprised, but you may be right and I will look it up later.
Two things to bear in mind - 1) they have twice the overall mileage per capita that we do. Most of that is simply their geography, but more miles will push the number of fatalities up somewhat even if they aren't all in urban areas 2) the recent and quite dramatic increase in fatalities is apparently linked to collisions at night and to those involving larger personal vehicles. Road safety nerds are rather interested in these trends.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
I can't follow this. Are you suggesting that observing law enforcement is flouting an American law? Either you're mistaken, or you're right and America is already a fascist state.
Whatever horrors Trump perpetrates Richard will react with a variation of "but the Dems ...". It borders on the pathological.
Yes, I manage to see beyond the mindless "my side good, their side bad" cheerleading too many people, on either side, engage in.
Perhaps you would prefer if I joined the chorus to spout the likes of:
Joe Biden isn't senile he's always had his funny ways / absent mind / stutter Hunter Biden is a victim of a political witch hunt. Joe Biden will never give Hunter a presidential pardon. Vance is a furniture shagger, hahaha
and on and on.
What I'd like to see in the USA is honest, competent, centrist government - that's not been on offer for the last decade so I'll happily continue to blame the lot of them. The only variance is which side is currently the more dishonest, incompetent and extreme - currently its Trump's gang.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
I can't follow this. Are you suggesting that observing law enforcement is flouting an American law? Either you're mistaken, or you're right and America is already a fascist state.
There are other laws than the 'constitutional right' to shove a camera into a cop's face.
Immigration laws have been flouted for decades - which is what lies behind the whole ICE deployment issue.
Or is it okay for laws to be flouted as long as the 'correct side' is doing it ?
And that's only the third worst attempt at whataboutery so far today.
When BritICE smash down your door and demand your passport, you'll be glad someone like me will be there filming it. Particularly if you get shot for protesting.
You know that BritICE do do that? Labour Home Secretaries like John Reid used to go and watch them smash down people's doors on dawn raids.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
I can't follow this. Are you suggesting that observing law enforcement is flouting an American law? Either you're mistaken, or you're right and America is already a fascist state.
There are other laws than the 'constitutional right' to shove a camera into a cop's face.
Immigration laws have been flouted for decades - which is what lies behind the whole ICE deployment issue.
Or is it okay for laws to be flouted as long as the 'correct side' is doing it ?
And that's only the third worst attempt at whataboutery so far today.
When BritICE smash down your door and demand your passport, you'll be glad someone like me will be there filming it. Particularly if you get shot for protesting.
You know that BritICE do do that? Labour Home Secretaries like John Reid used to go and watch them smash down people's doors on dawn raids.
Aye but they don't shoot people for filming it on their phones.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Everyone is obsessed about their 'rights' in the USA.
If they were as concerned about their responsibilities then the country would be in a lot better shape.
I very much agree there. But the system mitigates against the possibility.
The greatest things they could do would be to move to a social health care system (of whatever sort), deal with endemic guns and similar.
But they can't.
Maybe they can. As Churchill pointed out, you can generally rely on them to do the right thing, although only after exhausting every other possibility.
I honestly can't tell. They are currently back in the 1930s, and pursuing the economic policies that caused their economy to take years longer to recover than the European equivalents.
And all of the Trumpists are still in cuckoo land.
The RN and LFI have tabled motions of no confidence. According to several media reports, if one of the motions succeeds in bringing down the government, Emmanuel Macron and his Prime Minister Lecornu have already decided to dissolve the National Assembly and call new legislative elections.
The fact that the station is called "Sheffield Midland" and is at the end of the Midland Mainline is clear evidence that the Steel City is not in The North.
I always consider that I've reached The South as the train pulls in to Peterborough.
Sheffield is certainly North, Peterborough is East Anglia, not South
Peterborough isn't in the sticky out bit, so not East Anglia.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
That's not how it works in parts of the USA.
Rights that are not asserted and defended are all too often ignored.
(In general I prefer our system where police officers show a measure of politeness and consideration).
With ICE in particular they are detaining huge numbers of people illegally, and deporting them illegally, deliberately undermining the rule of law, which is part of the Trump campaign to create, in practice, a police state. I think it will be unravelled in the end; time will tell.
Very broadly speaking the police everywhere will quickly categorise a person as a member of one of two groups, "a fine upstanding member of society," or, "violent criminal scum." If you get categorised as the latter then you are in big trouble.
Where I have to give British police credit is their categorisation of the former was broad enough to include citizens being very awkward buggers on protests, including non-violent direct action. We all seemed to have a good idea of where the line was, how the game was played, and we didn't want to cross it.
ICE seem to have a much narrower definition of fine upstanding citizen, and I'm not sure it's safe for anyone to be in the vicinity of ICE when they're amped up. I certainly have no intention of risking it.
If I have a scintilla of sympathy for this cretin who killed the nice lady it arises from the doubt he would certainly have entertained that she might be armed. Why? Because so many Americans are. So from his point of view it may well have been merely prudent to assume that he was vulnerable and therefore it might be a good idea to get his retaliation in first, which he did.
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
I read some commentary on the protests in Iran recently. The writer was berating those who were worried that the State was successfully crushing the protests because there had been a few dozen deaths as a result of State violence. They pointed out that an average of more than 50 people die every day in Iranian road traffic collisions, and so if the death toll from the protests was below that level it wasn't going to be enough to scare people away from protesting - they take greater risks on the roads every day.
This seemed like a remarkable figure, since the population of Iran (~90 million) is not much larger than that UK (~70 million) where the death toll on the roads is ~4 per day, as discussed on PB.com. recently. I looked it up and, indeed, more than 20,000 people died on Iranian roads in 2023. Life is simply cheaper there.
So it is, I think, with the US and gun deaths. They accept an astonishing level of violent death by firearms because they are used to it. And so this also means that, individually, the threshold for using guns is simply that much lower. It's just not such a big deal to kill someone with a gun, because it's not that unusual.
Over Christmas I naturally watched many Christmas films, including Die Hard, and it's notable that one of the narrative arcs that concluded at the end of the film is the one of the noble cop who has chosen desk duty because he lost his self-confidence after shooting and killing a teenager, but happily he regains this self-confidence by shooting and killing a bad guy as the dramatic finale to the film.
That's a pleasantly cerebral post, LP, but the explanation of gun crime rates in the USA is far simpler. It's down to the NRA and the colossal amount of lolly tied up in the gun business.
American roads are as safe as ours. They value life just as much as us. They just haven't the wherewithal to take on the gun lobby.
The Americans have 6x as many road deaths as we do per capita. It's even worse for pedestrians, particularly after taking into account how little walking they do. It's why we have to push back hard on the recent trend towards SUVs and pick-up trucks before we see the same massive increase in fatalities.
I think they probably value their own lives as much as we do. Other people? Not so much.
Thanks Eabhal. I need to check that one out. I am going from memory of the last time I looked up the figures. I'm surprised, but you may be right and I will look it up later.
Two things to bear in mind - 1) they have twice the overall mileage per capita that we do. Most of that is simply their geography, but more miles will push the number of fatalities up somewhat even if they aren't all in urban areas 2) the recent and quite dramatic increase in fatalities is apparently linked to collisions at night and to those involving larger personal vehicles. Road safety nerds are rather interested in these trends.
Thanks Eabhal. I am a bit of a road safety nerd myself and am aware of the care with which the raw figures need to be interpreted. I had thought the US and UK were broadly similar in terms of safety but it seems I need to update my brain cells.
If you ignore the politicised commentary and just watch this clip, this is a good example of the kind of passive-aggressive "observation" that ICE and other law enforcement officers have to deal with now. In this case it doesn't escalate and the woman backs down but it's easy to see how these situations can get out of hand:
The algorithm definitely likes you William if you start being sent these clips/conversations, unless you were seeking them out. They are armed to the teeth for an arrest of an illegal immigrant? What a country. They are a long way down the third Reich trail.
That's just ICE * goons trying to intimidate a member of the public from standing on her constitutional rights in the USA.
* I'm assuming ICE.
You need to join the world of common sense instead of 'constitutional rights'.
Sticking a camera in the faces of a bunch of heavily armed stressed people is not sensible.
If you want to try go and do it to some of the Notts plods to see what reaction you get.
They probably aren’t going to put three bullets in your head, though.
Which is even more of a reason not to do the same with the US variety.
Democracy depends on some people having the courage to stand up for their rights. The freedoms you currently enjoy were delivered by the kind of people currently protesting in America and Iran.
And you'll get both sides of the US political divide saying that and thinking that they're the ones standing up for their rights and think they're entitled, in the name of freedom, to flout the laws the other side passes.
I can't follow this. Are you suggesting that observing law enforcement is flouting an American law? Either you're mistaken, or you're right and America is already a fascist state.
There are other laws than the 'constitutional right' to shove a camera into a cop's face.
Immigration laws have been flouted for decades - which is what lies behind the whole ICE deployment issue.
Or is it okay for laws to be flouted as long as the 'correct side' is doing it ?
Maybe watch the video at the start of this thread of comments again, and let us know at what point the person filming was 'shoving the camera in the cop's face'.
I'm at the Reform rally at the Excel centre in London. So far this evening I've chatted with a couple of Hindu pensioners, a Tube driver, a soldier, a Christian youth worker, a millionaire property developer and a violinist. This absolutely chimes with all of the published polling. Reform is the party most like modern Britain. Unlike Labour it represents business and the working class. Unlike the Tories it can win in Wales, Scotland and the North. Unlike the LibDems it is actually liberal and democratic! I'm excited to be a small part of what @Nigel_Farage is building. A truly national party that is this fast declining country's last, best chance.
(I'm being carefully non-commital. I've dealt with Montie enough to have some respect for him, but I think that - like IDS - he has rather lost his roots, and moved too close to Danny Kruger type views.)
Yes. Wait and see. We are at an interesting point. It seems to me that fewer big names (TimM, Kruger) have joined than I would have expected.
This matters because, SFAICS, the plan is to have a battalion of truly talented people to do a quasi American style takeover of the civil, legislative and executive process in order to get stuff done. (This would include massive numbers of appointments to the Lords)
This needs the right people, and (even harder) it needs a coherent policy framework in order that once you have the battalion in place, Reform and the country know 'who we are, where we are going and how we are going to get there'.
I am not sure which is harder: Getting the huge team of the willing and able; or forming a coherent set of policy plans out of the internal contradiction which is the Reform history and support base.
Comments
These people are specifically trained to deal with the stress of armed response. You and William are saying it's not sensible to provoke them with...a camera and a polite assertion of your rights as a citizen?!
The analogy in teaching would be to say to a student 'its not sensible to question a teacher while they are dealing with an unruly pupil - see what reaction you'd get'.
The reaction from me as a teacher would be calm, measured and de-escalatory. That's my job. If I was to respond in any other way I should be reprimanded, fired, banned from teaching depending on the severity of my response.
I would expect such nonsense from William but I'm surprised to see you justifying this - I have you down as one of the sensible ones.
Wonder if Kim Jong Un plays dominoes.
It confirms my view that Lincolnshire is the only county to be in the north (Scunthorpe, Grimsby), the Midlands (Lincoln) and the south (Spalding, the Deepings).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9JesreXvVafyur3s6
I think there are also some near the M1/A64 junction and also possibly Darlington but I’m too lazy to find them right now.
I wonder if full-fat Gemini would be better than Copilot as google’s mapping is much better.
The South begins at the Oxfordshire, Gloucestershire, Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire borders.
Everywhere else in England is in the Midlands or East Anglia
This doesn't exonerate Mr Ross in the slightest. What he did was despicable and will doubtless go unpunished.
It's an awful and needless tragedy and the bastards who have been dragging this poor woman through the mud have been utterly dreadful. We have seen the footage, which ever way you look at it Mr Ross had no justifiable reason to assassinate her.
You are crossing the line of common decency.
JD Vance
@JDVance
If you want to say this woman's death is a tragedy, that we should pray for her soul as Christians and Americans, then I agree with you.
But the media dishonesty about this officer is an all-time moment in shameless press propaganda.
Does this law enforcement officer have a family? Yes. Did he he get seriously injured by a vehicle just six months ago? Yes. Did he have reason to fear for his life? Yes. Does he have every right to safety while he's doing his job? Yes.
I want our law enforcement officers to do their jobs and come home safely to their family. If you don't like the immigration policy of the Trump administration, attack me. Leave our law enforcement alone.
And it's time for the press to finally tell the truth about this story.
Is Chesterfield?
Reckon that's the border
I mean really?
If your parents were working class and you went to a state comprehensive or academy or high school you can probably always claim to have been working class by upbringing even if now middle class by profession
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqqXBc3tRHc
Split into population thirds, by constituency. Shading is population density.
Of course, this doesn't tell you anything about culture.
Sorry Wales - you are in the Midlands.
Joshua Reed Eakle 🗽
@JoshEakle
Because I'm seeing a lot of unncessary dooming in the comments, let's get some facts straight:
Fact: No matter the circumstances—wartime, so-called “martial law,” or any national crisis—Trump has zero authority to cancel elections.
Fact: Elections are run entirely by the states. The federal government has no jurisdiction over how votes are counted or certified.
https://x.com/JoshEakle/status/2009651911574573129
If you go into a city centre pub in Sheffield and insist to the locals they are Midlanders, will you get out alive?
What should the government do about Iran? Trump has made threats to the regime over civilian casualties. Ultimately they have long been the world's biggest state sponsor of terror and are currently supporting the worst military aggression in Europe for 80 years. You also have a ready made successor in Pahlavi who talks the talk on democracy.
As Europeans, do we need to be more ruthless? (embrace the inner carnivore as Macron put it).
Now far be it for me to suggest that incidents of this kind might become a tad less common if there were some sensible laws on gun ownership in place so that the law enforcement boys would have less reason to believe their adversaries would be armed, but you might think that somebody that side of the pond would join a couple of the dots together. So far I have heard nothing to that effect amidst all the wailing.
I stress however that the scintilla is indeed the tiniest spark. My overwhelming sympathies are with the lady and her loved ones.
Instinctively I rebel against a definition that would see the geographical extent of the North shrink were it to attract population from the South.
I can tell you that the first constituency in the "North" by that definition is Coventry North West.
I imagine the population is more bottom heavy than the census data so it may have shifted slightly south now.
The advice i was given from Americans proved spot on. Show your hands clearly and away from the wheel, no sudden movements or reaching into pockets or glovebox. Turn the engine off and if they ask for keys throw them out the window and make it clear you are obeying orders at all times and no intention to try to flee.
As you say so many Americans carry guns the police will make assumptions if you starr digging around under the seat or glovebox without being asked to do so.
This seemed like a remarkable figure, since the population of Iran (~90 million) is not much larger than that UK (~70 million) where the death toll on the roads is ~4 per day, as discussed on PB.com. recently. I looked it up and, indeed, more than 20,000 people died on Iranian roads in 2023. Life is simply cheaper there.
So it is, I think, with the US and gun deaths. They accept an astonishing level of violent death by firearms because they are used to it. And so this also means that, individually, the threshold for using guns is simply that much lower. It's just not such a big deal to kill someone with a gun, because it's not that unusual.
Over Christmas I naturally watched many Christmas films, including Die Hard, and it's notable that one of the narrative arcs that concluded at the end of the film is the one of the noble cop who has chosen desk duty because he lost his self-confidence after shooting and killing a teenager, but happily he regains this self-confidence by shooting and killing a bad guy as the dramatic finale to the film.
Have only just seen the interesting conclusion to last nite's match and I can see why you were a little irritated. Martinelli shoud have been sent off, although possibly not for the reasons you think.
He threw the ball at a grounded opponent. I had just this situation in a game I reffed long ago and I have had the luxury of many years to contemplate the correct action. All other things being equal, it's a booking, but not a red card (unless it is so egregious as to constitute violent conduct, but normally it would not.)
The shove on the stricken player is a separate incident, and again it is a yellow card. It is undoubtedly ungentlemanly conduct, but not violent. This second yellow then makes it a sending off, which is I think the outcome you wanted though not necessarily by the same process of reasoning as you followed.
Sorry for the delay in posting this but I know how much you value my opinion and I didn't want you to think I didn't have one.
Best
PtP
American roads are as safe as ours. They value life just as much as us. They just haven't the wherewithal to take on the gun lobby.
He doesn't plan on leaving
And what if something goes wrong or something happens unexpectedly ?
The sensible thing is not to go up to armed men undertaking some potentially violent activity and stick a camera in their faces and then argue with them.
Consider if there was some armed police operation happening on your own street. Would you go up to them and stick a camera in their faces ? I certainly wouldn't because it wouldn't do any good and it might end up with very bad consequences for me or someone else.
I think they probably value their own lives as much as we do. Other people? Not so much.
If they were as concerned about their responsibilities then the country would be in a lot better shape.
Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧
@montie
I'm at the Reform rally at the Excel centre in London. So far this evening I've chatted with a couple of Hindu pensioners, a Tube driver, a soldier, a Christian youth worker, a millionaire property developer and a violinist. This absolutely chimes with all of the published polling. Reform is the party most like modern Britain. Unlike Labour it represents business and the working class. Unlike the Tories it can win in Wales, Scotland and the North. Unlike the LibDems it is actually liberal and democratic! I'm excited to be a small part of what
@Nigel_Farage is building. A truly national party that is this fast declining country's last, best chance.
https://x.com/montie/status/2009698327013568888
USA police are tolerated acting like sheriffs in the wild-west, with all the personal behaviour that allows. Many of them are in tiny police departments, run by elected rather than properly trained individuals, inadequate professional training, with little effective accountability especially across States, a bias towards immunity from prosecution, and a tendency to dehumanise anyone. Joe Arpiao, anyone?
As a specific, here we have risk management of police chases by a third party for example, and tactics that have a high risk require authorisation by a third party in the control room.
UK (and I think probably Western Europe, though I do not know all of it in detail) are far more professional, and recognise that the public are human and give consideration. That is even with the many problems we hear about.
There's a deeper societal thing, too. In the USA afaics violence is an accepted and assumed currency of interaction. That's a huge difference.
(I'm being carefully non-commital. I've dealt with Montie enough to have some respect for him, but I think that - like IDS - he has rather lost his roots, and moved too close to Danny Kruger type views.)
Once I returned home to find our street cordoned off, so I had to ask a copper for permission to cross the barrier and walk home - a mental health patient armed with a knife was in a sort of hostage situation. You could tell it was an active situation and the police thought they might have to use their weapons.
The second time was returning south to London from the G8 protests at Gleneagles. Our specially chartered protest train had been delayed after the July 7th terrorist attack that morning. We eventually arrived into Euston late in the evening to be met by a line of armed police we had to walk along, who had clearly all categorised us as, "violent criminal scum".
The armed MOD Plod never made me feel nervous, and their dogs are very well trained. But we were all following the rules of how to behave when interacting with them.
Immigration laws have been flouted for decades - which is what lies behind the whole ICE deployment issue.
Or is it okay for laws to be flouted as long as the 'correct side' is doing it ?
The greatest things they could do would be to move to a social health care system (of whatever sort), deal with endemic guns and similar.
But they can't.
When BritICE smash down your door and demand your passport, you'll be glad someone like me will be there filming it. Particularly if you get shot for protesting it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Anglia
(This is not an original observation, but still)
Trumps sees an era of hard power, and he does not give a damn whether he has "authority" or not. The question is who will stop him?
One of the themes in the latest Nat Con Squad podcast (who are young-middle-age intellectuals - eg who write for the. Speccie or the Daily Caller who spend their time trying to justify whatever the Trump-latest happens to be).
At present they want the impeachment of a couple of "rogue Judges" (one being Judge Boasberg) in order to intimidate the rest of the Judiciary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERqCQoQUNgM
Perhaps you would prefer if I joined the chorus to spout the likes of:
Joe Biden isn't senile he's always had his funny ways / absent mind / stutter
Hunter Biden is a victim of a political witch hunt.
Joe Biden will never give Hunter a presidential pardon.
Vance is a furniture shagger, hahaha
and on and on.
What I'd like to see in the USA is honest, competent, centrist government - that's not been on offer for the last decade so I'll happily continue to blame the lot of them. The only variance is which side is currently the more dishonest, incompetent and extreme - currently its Trump's gang.
Only once you pass 75% of the population do you get anywhere near what might be described as North - Rother Valley.
And all of the Trumpists are still in cuckoo land.
The RN and LFI have tabled motions of no confidence. According to several media reports, if one of the motions succeeds in bringing down the government, Emmanuel Macron and his Prime Minister Lecornu have already decided to dissolve the National Assembly and call new legislative elections.
I will take Greenland one way or another, otherwise Russia or China will !!!!
This matters because, SFAICS, the plan is to have a battalion of truly talented people to do a quasi American style takeover of the civil, legislative and executive process in order to get stuff done. (This would include massive numbers of appointments to the Lords)
This needs the right people, and (even harder) it needs a coherent policy framework in order that once you have the battalion in place, Reform and the country know 'who we are, where we are going and how we are going to get there'.
I am not sure which is harder: Getting the huge team of the willing and able; or forming a coherent set of policy plans out of the internal contradiction which is the Reform history and support base.
On all this Shipman is worth a glance:
https://spectator.com/article/we-will-use-the-power-of-democracy-to-blow-you-away-reform-plots-a-path-to-no-10/