There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I'd like to see that 'Wise Men' split into its three components, GOLD, frankincense and myrrh. I suspect the first (which was me) would then be higher, perhaps right up there with Joseph.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
I played the Angel Gabriel, but as I was an angel it was some sort of frock. Was bout 5 at the time.
Depending which version of the bible you read, Gabriel is either male or unspecified, and so are angels in general. I think the theology is they are sexless or genderless.
ETA mind you, the angels on Captain Scarlet were clearly women.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
Not invariably, occasionally nativity plays get lucky & have a real live baby available (with Mum hovering in the wings if not on stage).
Sounds ghastly! I remember Sunday school - I hated every moment. I think I may have been cast as a shepherd. Perhaps I was an early victim of being a replacement for the plastic doll and its scarred me forever. We will never know.
I sound a bit grouchy I know, but the secular Christmas I rather love. Apart from the jollity of course
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
Not invariably, occasionally nativity plays get lucky & have a real live baby available (with Mum hovering in the wings if not on stage).
Sounds ghastly! I remember Sunday school - I hated every moment. I think I may have been cast as a shepherd. Perhaps I was an early victim of being a replacement for the plastic doll and its scarred me forever. We will never know.
I sound a bit grouchy I know, but the secular Christmas I rather love. Apart from the jollity of course
That's an interesting comment - I went to Sunday school in my early years but have always associated Nativity plays with ordinary school. Never knowingly encountered a Sunday school nativity play, maybe just because it was all too early, before memory kicked in.
I think this mostly shows that successful people invent stories about their past that may -or may not- match reality.
Not really. First, it looks plausible in that the brighter, charismatic kids get to play the leads and do better in life.
And second, you could shuffle most of those parts and it would still look plausible.
But most Josephs will be at state schools and private schools will have to have their share of all the other parts, and yet we know how important the private/state split is in terms of future success, so all those private school shepherds will earn more than those state school Josephs.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
Not invariably, occasionally nativity plays get lucky & have a real live baby available (with Mum hovering in the wings if not on stage).
Sounds ghastly! I remember Sunday school - I hated every moment. I think I may have been cast as a shepherd. Perhaps I was an early victim of being a replacement for the plastic doll and its scarred me forever. We will never know.
I sound a bit grouchy I know, but the secular Christmas I rather love. Apart from the jollity of course
That's an interesting comment - I went to Sunday school in my early years but have always associated Nativity plays with ordinary school. Never knowingly encountered a Sunday school nativity play, maybe just because it was all too early, before memory kicked in.
My recollections are very vague. Sunday school in my memory was very bad though. Normal school was rubbish too until I got to secondary school - I went from 'idiot' (they told my father that) to top of pretty much every subject at secondary school. (At uni I was pretty average though.)
I think this mostly shows that successful people invent stories about their past that may -or may not- match reality.
Not really. First, it looks plausible in that the brighter, charismatic kids get to play the leads and do better in life.
And second, you could shuffle most of those parts and it would still look plausible.
But most Josephs will be at state schools and private schools will have to have their share of all the other parts, and yet we know how important the private/state split is in terms of future success, so all those private school shepherds will earn more than those state school Josephs.
Is the Telegraph not supposed to be a campaigning platform for Freedom of Speech, rather than censorship? The complaints are pathetic.
People having their own opinion that I happen to disagree with, and putting on a performace on that basis that does not restrict my speech or actions, is NOT discrimination.
Totally agree with this, what is needed is to listen to people who post on PB 100,000 times instead. I’m honestly just fed up with losers. Right-wing and left-wing politics is just losers from top to bottom who have an excessive amount of cultural power in the age of the internet because losers post on Reddit 79,000 times as much as people who have jobs https://nitter.poast.org/SwannMarcus89/status/2001883311145406928#m
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
I played the Angel Gabriel, but as I was an angel it was some sort of frock. Was bout 5 at the time.
Depending which version of the bible you read, Gabriel is either male or unspecified, and so are angels in general. I think the theology is they are sexless or genderless.
ETA mind you, the angels on Captain Scarlet were clearly women.
In the film "Dogma" Alan Rickman drops his trousers to show that angels are sexless.
I was costume director for the nativity play*. I was particularly proud of my Dr Seuss style crowns. The vicar was less pleased by my substitution of nappies, baby powder and a rattle for the traditional wise men's presents. More practical for a newborn in a manger.**
*admittedly as a parent of Fox jr
** the traditional presents are symbolic: Gold for a King, Frankincence for a prophet, and Myhrr for embalming a corpse. All fine and dandy of course, but not what a new mother wants to hear.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think this mostly shows that successful people invent stories about their past that may -or may not- match reality.
Not really. First, it looks plausible in that the brighter, charismatic kids get to play the leads and do better in life.
And second, you could shuffle most of those parts and it would still look plausible.
But most Josephs will be at state schools and private schools will have to have their share of all the other parts, and yet we know how important the private/state split is in terms of future success, so all those private school shepherds will earn more than those state school Josephs.
Yes but you've got the state school shepherds and the private school Josephs as well, so it is all averaged out.
And one reason private schools do better, even in showbiz, is that (certainly the boarding schools) do so much more drama, with house plays and school plays every few weeks, presumably on the grounds that it keeps them off street corners.
And for many children, the nativity play will be the first taste of that. Learning to project and hold an audience.
Mass clearout of England leadership not in ECB plans after Ashes failure
McCullum’s position likely to come under scrutiny
ECB believes mass sackings would be a mistake
The England and Wales Cricket Board is eager to avoid a mass clearout of England’s senior leadership in the wake of another humiliating away Ashes series defeat.
England’s hopes of winning the urn were expunged inside 11 days for just the fourth time in the contest’s 143-year history with Sunday’s 82-run defeat in Adelaide, and a fourth Ashes whitewash is on the cards in Melbourne and Sydney, unless the tourists can arrest a dismal 18-match run without a win in Australia that stretches back to 2011.
A full review of the tour’s planning and execution will take place following the final Test next month when jobs could be on the line, with Brendon McCullum’s position as head coach expected to come under the most scrutiny.
The Guardian has been told that the ECB do not want to repeat the mass cull that followed their 4-0 defeat in Australia four years ago, however, when coach Chris Silverwood and director of cricket Ashley Giles were sacked the following month, with Joe Root resigning as captain following another series defeat in the West Indies two months later.
While changes could still be made depending on the outcome of the rest of the tour, the ECB believes that mass sackings would be a mistake and leave England less well-placed to learn the lessons of the tour.
Rather than appointing a completely new leadership team, there is a desire at Lord’s to retain what one source described as some “institutional muscle memory” of an Ashes tour, which, given England’s dismal record of one series win since 1987, is in danger of appearing an insurmountable challenge.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
I played the Angel Gabriel, but as I was an angel it was some sort of frock. Was bout 5 at the time.
Depending which version of the bible you read, Gabriel is either male or unspecified, and so are angels in general. I think the theology is they are sexless or genderless.
ETA mind you, the angels on Captain Scarlet were clearly women.
In the film "Dogma" Alan Rickman drops his trousers to show that angels are sexless.
That’s what Harvey Weinstein wanted you to believe
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
I'm not sure we can safely assume anything happened...
But the other gospels imply that they already lived in Bethlehem, which would make more sense. Luke seems to have gone off on one.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
My daughter was Joseph in her final nativity last year.
She requested a speaking role and all the female speaking roles had already been assigned and she was told she could be Joseph if she was happy with that. She agreed and did it well.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
I'm not sure we can safely assume anything happened...
For sake of argument I was accepting the basic premise of the story, though I am no expert on the historicity of Jesus of Bethlehem/Nazareth..
I was costume director for the nativity play*. I was particularly proud of my Dr Seuss style crowns. The vicar was less pleased by my substitution of nappies, baby powder and a rattle for the traditional wise men's presents. More practical for a newborn in a manger.**
*admittedly as a parent of Fox jr
** the traditional presents are symbolic: Gold for a King, Frankincence for a prophet, and Myhrr for embalming a corpse. All fine and dandy of course, but not what a new mother wants to hear.
Not so sure about the last. Almost the first thing my grandmother did in 1925 after my dad was born was to take out life insurance with the Pru to pay for his funeral if he got scarlet fever, etc. etc. in those pre-vaccine days. I've still got the policy document, one of those enormous engraved things. They stopped collecting their 1d a week when he was about 60 or so. Finally cashed it in a few eyars back. Was an interesting exercise to consider the payments in and out when correcting for inflation.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
There's no reference to an innkeeper either.
Well without that the whole story just falls apart!
Not sure the poll is saying post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Seems more like what you might call 'individuals who stand out' even at age eight find that happens for the rest of their life.
We did Joseph and his amazing coat at primary school (thanks to a teacher knowing a professional music director with time on his hands). It was a big deal and the main part went to the good looking, tall, bright kid whose father was a GP and would likely be passing the 11+ with flying colours etc, etc. To be fair my memory is he could hold a note.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
My daughter was Joseph in her final nativity last year.
She requested a speaking role and all the female speaking roles had already been assigned and she was told she could be Joseph if she was happy with that. She agreed and did it well.
Mass clearout of England leadership not in ECB plans after Ashes failure
McCullum’s position likely to come under scrutiny
ECB believes mass sackings would be a mistake
The England and Wales Cricket Board is eager to avoid a mass clearout of England’s senior leadership in the wake of another humiliating away Ashes series defeat.
England’s hopes of winning the urn were expunged inside 11 days for just the fourth time in the contest’s 143-year history with Sunday’s 82-run defeat in Adelaide, and a fourth Ashes whitewash is on the cards in Melbourne and Sydney, unless the tourists can arrest a dismal 18-match run without a win in Australia that stretches back to 2011.
A full review of the tour’s planning and execution will take place following the final Test next month when jobs could be on the line, with Brendon McCullum’s position as head coach expected to come under the most scrutiny.
The Guardian has been told that the ECB do not want to repeat the mass cull that followed their 4-0 defeat in Australia four years ago, however, when coach Chris Silverwood and director of cricket Ashley Giles were sacked the following month, with Joe Root resigning as captain following another series defeat in the West Indies two months later.
While changes could still be made depending on the outcome of the rest of the tour, the ECB believes that mass sackings would be a mistake and leave England less well-placed to learn the lessons of the tour.
Rather than appointing a completely new leadership team, there is a desire at Lord’s to retain what one source described as some “institutional muscle memory” of an Ashes tour, which, given England’s dismal record of one series win since 1987, is in danger of appearing an insurmountable challenge.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
I'm not sure we can safely assume anything happened...
But the other gospels imply that they already lived in Bethlehem, which would make more sense. Luke seems to have gone off on one.
There's a lot of CV buffing in the Nativity story.
A lot of the story is to set up the birth of Jesus as fulfilling multiple Old Testament prophecies. Indeed there is no evidence that Herod held a census, let alone one that required people to travel to their ancestors town. But there had to be a reason for the Messiah to be born there as prophecied.
But fisking the story for facts is to miss the point. Ancient peoples were much more comfortable with myth, story telling and symbolism than our rather dry and dusty logic. The point is a radical one; that God is to be found in the most lowly places, not in gilded palaces, He is for everyone.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
I think this mostly shows that successful people invent stories about their past that may -or may not- match reality.
Not really. First, it looks plausible in that the brighter, charismatic kids get to play the leads and do better in life.
And second, you could shuffle most of those parts and it would still look plausible.
But most Josephs will be at state schools and private schools will have to have their share of all the other parts, and yet we know how important the private/state split is in terms of future success, so all those private school shepherds will earn more than those state school Josephs.
Yes but you've got the state school shepherds and the private school Josephs as well, so it is all averaged out.
And one reason private schools do better, even in showbiz, is that (certainly the boarding schools) do so much more drama, with house plays and school plays every few weeks, presumably on the grounds that it keeps them off street corners.
And for many children, the nativity play will be the first taste of that. Learning to project and hold an audience.
I'd imagine that the children who are given the speaking parts are relatively more articulate and confident and that might carry through to adulthood. I played Joseph in a nativity play at school and Pontius Pilate in a Passion Play as an adult. I played him as a harassed bureaucrat which allowed me to draw from my experience as a harassed bureaucrat.
In my extensive experience the archangel Gabriel is invariably played by a girl, even though Gabriel is always described in the bible as 'He'. I imagine since the Supreme Court ruling that this may be a bit of a problem. I hope the EHRC guidance covers this matter, as well as the vexed question of which loos archangels use.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
I'm not sure we can safely assume anything happened...
But the other gospels imply that they already lived in Bethlehem, which would make more sense. Luke seems to have gone off on one.
There's a lot of CV buffing in the Nativity story.
A lot of the story is to set up the birth of Jesus as fulfilling multiple Old Testament prophecies. Indeed there is no evidence that Herod held a census, let alone one that required people to travel to their ancestors town. But there had to be a reason for the Messiah to be born there as prophecied.
But fisking the story for facts is to miss the point. Ancient peoples were much more comfortable with myth, story telling and symbolism than our rather dry and dusty logic. The point is a radical one; that God is to be found in the most lowly places, not in gilded palaces, He is for everyone.
I don't know that fisking for facts is entirely irrelevant when some of those 'facts' are relied upon to lend weight to the mythological symbolism and thus increase the moral weight to add to the messaging - I'd agree the point of the story is, surely, more important than some of the fine details or biblical literalism, but without certain details the point can be a bit different - presumably why they were included by some in retellings in the first place, clearly it was felt people would 'miss the point' if they were not included.
Or disagreed on what parts of 'the' point were signifcant, hence needing an illogical census etc.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
I've seen a lot of comments online recently from Vivek Ramaswamy seemingly attempting to push back at some of the more 'nativist' or outright nazi-ish tendencies of some on the right.
I don't think we've got something to that degree here, but 2025 was the first time I can remember coming across so many comments pushing more racialised ideas of citizenship quite hard.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
There's no reference to an innkeeper either.
Though there is reference to the inn. Which presumably had a keeper. There is no reference to the stable. The stable is inferred, unreliably, from the manger. The shepherds are told to look for the manger, not the stable, as the sign they have the right baby.
The whole splendid thing is a post hoc legitimation myth. The ancient world abounds in them. It is none the worse for that.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
Honestly, I’m getting bombarded with Holocaust denial, Russian trolls, rants by Lozza Fox, and Rupert Lowe, and assorted idiocies, despite blocking these sites.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
I'm not sure we can safely assume anything happened...
But the other gospels imply that they already lived in Bethlehem, which would make more sense. Luke seems to have gone off on one.
There's a lot of CV buffing in the Nativity story.
A lot of the story is to set up the birth of Jesus as fulfilling multiple Old Testament prophecies. Indeed there is no evidence that Herod held a census, let alone one that required people to travel to their ancestors town. But there had to be a reason for the Messiah to be born there as prophecied.
But fisking the story for facts is to miss the point. Ancient peoples were much more comfortable with myth, story telling and symbolism than our rather dry and dusty logic. The point is a radical one; that God is to be found in the most lowly places, not in gilded palaces, He is for everyone.
I don't know that fisking for facts is entirely irrelevant when some of those 'facts' are relied upon to lend weight to the mythological symbolism and thus increase the moral weight to add to the messaging - I'd agree the point of the story is, surely, more important than some of the fine details or biblical literalism, but without certain details the point can be a bit different - presumably why they were included by some in retellings in the first place, clearly it was felt people would 'miss the point' if they were not included.
Or disagreed on what parts of 'the' point were signifcant, hence needing an illogical census etc.
There was a census around that time, but it would not have operated as mentioned, and also took place when Herod was not ruler, so Herod and the census could not simultaneously have happened.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
I played the Virgin Mary in a school nativity once (at secondary school).
We wrote it, and it included some wonderful lines:
Me 'I'll go in my Skoda, because I'm a sconner. It was a waste of money.'*
Innkeeper: 'The sheep shearing sheds are just round the back.' (In what we earnestly assured the headmaster was a totally and utterly accidental slip, this became 'sheep shagging sheds' in the performance.)
Alasdair and Peter: 'We're the Three Wise Hippies and we come in Peace, Man!' (Vulcan Salute) Me: 'No you're not, there's only two of you.' Alasdair to Peter: 'Say, what have you done with that loser Steve?' Peter: 'He was map reading and thought the map was wrong, so he went to Cairo.' (Not at all a reference to the unfortunate moment Steve was doing map reading on the DofE Bronze expedition and led them to totally the wrong place because he was holding it upside down and then insisted the map must have a mistake in it.)
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
Honestly, I’m getting bombarded with Holocaust denial, Russian trolls, rants by Lozza Fox, and Rupert Lowe, and assorted idiocies, despite blocking these sites.
Facebook has become practically useless recently- enshittification in full effect.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
There's no reference to an innkeeper either.
Though there is reference to the inn. Which presumably had a keeper. There is no reference to the stable. The stable is inferred, unreliably, from the manger. The shepherds are told to look for the manger, not the stable, as the sign they have the right baby.
The whole splendid thing is a post hoc legitimation myth. The ancient world abounds in them. It is none the worse for that.
There's no reference to an inn either, the word used meant 'guest room', which traditionally would be in a private home and not a commercial inn.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
I'm not sure we can safely assume anything happened...
But the other gospels imply that they already lived in Bethlehem, which would make more sense. Luke seems to have gone off on one.
There's a lot of CV buffing in the Nativity story.
A lot of the story is to set up the birth of Jesus as fulfilling multiple Old Testament prophecies. Indeed there is no evidence that Herod held a census, let alone one that required people to travel to their ancestors town. But there had to be a reason for the Messiah to be born there as prophecied.
But fisking the story for facts is to miss the point. Ancient peoples were much more comfortable with myth, story telling and symbolism than our rather dry and dusty logic. The point is a radical one; that God is to be found in the most lowly places, not in gilded palaces, He is for everyone.
I don't know that fisking for facts is entirely irrelevant when some of those 'facts' are relied upon to lend weight to the mythological symbolism and thus increase the moral weight to add to the messaging - I'd agree the point of the story is, surely, more important than some of the fine details or biblical literalism, but without certain details the point can be a bit different - presumably why they were included by some in retellings in the first place, clearly it was felt people would 'miss the point' if they were not included.
Or disagreed on what parts of 'the' point were signifcant, hence needing an illogical census etc.
There was a census around that time, but it would not have operated as mentioned, and also took place when Herod was not ruler, so Herod and the census could not simultaneously have happened.
There were three Herods, around that time; murderous batshit Herod; Herod Archelaus, and Herod Antipas. Quite possibly, the three gets mixed up.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
Honestly, I’m getting bombarded with Holocaust denial, Russian trolls, rants by Lozza Fox, and Rupert Lowe, and assorted idiocies, despite blocking these sites.
Twitter has now defaulted to showing me 'For You' rather than 'Following'.
I get the stuff you're seeing now and worse.
In the past week I get to see the posts from the likes Lozza Fox, Rupert Lowe, somebody Lucy White who doesn't want Muslims in parliament.
It's like following Tommy Robinson's Twitter feed.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
I'm not sure we can safely assume anything happened...
But the other gospels imply that they already lived in Bethlehem, which would make more sense. Luke seems to have gone off on one.
There's a lot of CV buffing in the Nativity story.
A lot of the story is to set up the birth of Jesus as fulfilling multiple Old Testament prophecies. Indeed there is no evidence that Herod held a census, let alone one that required people to travel to their ancestors town. But there had to be a reason for the Messiah to be born there as prophecied.
But fisking the story for facts is to miss the point. Ancient peoples were much more comfortable with myth, story telling and symbolism than our rather dry and dusty logic. The point is a radical one; that God is to be found in the most lowly places, not in gilded palaces, He is for everyone.
I don't know that fisking for facts is entirely irrelevant when some of those 'facts' are relied upon to lend weight to the mythological symbolism and thus increase the moral weight to add to the messaging - I'd agree the point of the story is, surely, more important than some of the fine details or biblical literalism, but without certain details the point can be a bit different - presumably why they were included by some in retellings in the first place, clearly it was felt people would 'miss the point' if they were not included.
Or disagreed on what parts of 'the' point were signifcant, hence needing an illogical census etc.
There was a census around that time, but it would not have operated as mentioned, and also took place when Herod was not ruler, so Herod and the census could not simultaneously have happened.
There were three Herods, around that time; murderous batshit Herod; Herod Archelaus, and Herod Antipas. Quite possibly, the three gets mixed up.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
Honestly, I’m getting bombarded with Holocaust denial, Russian trolls, rants by Lozza Fox, and Rupert Lowe, and assorted idiocies, despite blocking these sites.
I stopped actively using Facebook years ago and never embraced Twitter. Facebook pissed me off when it went to overwhelmingly showing people/groups I never followed rather than my 'Friends'. Defeated the entire point of it as far as I was concerned.
Only thing I still use it for is Messenger with my friends and family.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I don't think I've ever even met someone who had a nativity play at school. I think I always assumed they were something made up for 1970s comedy shows.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
Honestly, I’m getting bombarded with Holocaust denial, Russian trolls, rants by Lozza Fox, and Rupert Lowe, and assorted idiocies, despite blocking these sites.
I stopped actively using Facebook years ago and never embraced Twitter. Facebook pissed me off when it went to overwhelmingly showing people/groups I never followed rather than my 'Friends'. Defeated the entire point of it as far as I was concerned.
Only thing I still use it for is Messenger with my friends and family.
Like most changes from big tech companies thesedays they seem designed for the company's benefit, not the customer.
Which is a shame, as so many things are much more convenient now thanks to companies, but the attitude seems to have shifted.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
Honestly, I’m getting bombarded with Holocaust denial, Russian trolls, rants by Lozza Fox, and Rupert Lowe, and assorted idiocies, despite blocking these sites.
There are some sites where Nativity denial is rampant.
She has been an MSP since 2021, and will now stand down at the election
Labour have tumbled in the polls since their win at the Maryhill council by election in December 2024, as it stands it will be an uphill task to take tis seat. The previous boundaries for Glasgow Kelvin were very friendly for the Greens, this new seat doesn't take in the city centre and goes further north than Maryhill, into some rural territory. I had fancied Patrick Harvie to stand here, but he's not listed as a constituency candidate yet.
I think the Greens could have taken the current Kelvin seat next year, with the new boundaries that will be tougher, but not impossible. The Greens will surely be pushing hard for at least a second list seat in Glasgow.
Male lead (well, after Christ) gets £14,000 more than the female lead – sounds about right.
Perhaps the great problem that Christianity has is that Christ is always played by a plastic doll.
A remarkably tasteless nativity scene came up on my Facebook page, depicting Baby Hitler, in place of Baby Jesus. The wise men and shepherds had swastika armbands, and there was a Nazi flag on the stable wall.
You need to stop following the Republican Party on Facebook.
Honestly, I’m getting bombarded with Holocaust denial, Russian trolls, rants by Lozza Fox, and Rupert Lowe, and assorted idiocies, despite blocking these sites.
You can just not use facebook. It's quite easy to avoid. I think my online life improved immeasurably when I closed FB and twitter about 10 years ago. And they're only going to get worse and worse. There's no particular point making money for either of them as they float further down into the sewer.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
There's no reference to an innkeeper either.
Though there is reference to the inn. Which presumably had a keeper. There is no reference to the stable. The stable is inferred, unreliably, from the manger. The shepherds are told to look for the manger, not the stable, as the sign they have the right baby.
The whole splendid thing is a post hoc legitimation myth. The ancient world abounds in them. It is none the worse for that.
Is there even an inn? The implication is that they were guests, but it could have been at a relatives house.
I thought there actually was a census in Judea, but prior to Herod, so Luke got the timeline a bit mixed up.
There's this to be said for it: how many boys get to play Mary, and how many girls get to play Joseph?
Suggesting that the distribution is skewed by sex as a confounder, with men earning more than women, Good point.
It may also be a case of if you subdivide any group into subcategories, measure a thing, then sort by size of that thing then you will end up with a staircase regardless of actual underlying pattern,
What MiC should have done is a stacked bar graph or a histogram, so we could identify if outliers are skewing it
I’d also assume that there might be an economic correlation - schools in better off areas put on relatively more nativity shows and/or kids from socially excluded backgrounds don’t participate in these shows & also struggle in later life
Yes, and this also correlates with the donkeys and sheep voting Reform yesterday.
Of course, there are no animals mentioned in the biblical accounts. There are definitely no donkeys, sheep or any other kind of domesticated beast, so it is all traditional nonsense invented long after the gospels.
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
I'm not sure we can safely assume anything happened...
But the other gospels imply that they already lived in Bethlehem, which would make more sense. Luke seems to have gone off on one.
There's a lot of CV buffing in the Nativity story.
A lot of the story is to set up the birth of Jesus as fulfilling multiple Old Testament prophecies. Indeed there is no evidence that Herod held a census, let alone one that required people to travel to their ancestors town. But there had to be a reason for the Messiah to be born there as prophecied.
But fisking the story for facts is to miss the point. Ancient peoples were much more comfortable with myth, story telling and symbolism than our rather dry and dusty logic. The point is a radical one; that God is to be found in the most lowly places, not in gilded palaces, He is for everyone.
I don't know that fisking for facts is entirely irrelevant when some of those 'facts' are relied upon to lend weight to the mythological symbolism and thus increase the moral weight to add to the messaging - I'd agree the point of the story is, surely, more important than some of the fine details or biblical literalism, but without certain details the point can be a bit different - presumably why they were included by some in retellings in the first place, clearly it was felt people would 'miss the point' if they were not included.
Or disagreed on what parts of 'the' point were signifcant, hence needing an illogical census etc.
There was a census around that time, but it would not have operated as mentioned, and also took place when Herod was not ruler, so Herod and the census could not simultaneously have happened.
There were three Herods, around that time; murderous batshit Herod; Herod Archelaus, and Herod Antipas. Quite possibly, the three gets mixed up.
About time that name made a comeback. We've enough Jacks, Olivers and Jaydens.
Comments
JUDITH: I do feel, Reg, that any Anti-Imperialist group like ours must reflect such a divergence of interests within its power-base.
REG: Agreed. Francis?
FRANCIS: Yeah. I think Judith's point of view is very valid, Reg, provided the Movement never forgets that it is the inalienable right of every man--
STAN: Or woman.
FRANCIS: Or woman... to rid himself--
STAN: Or herself.
FRANCIS: Or herself.
REG: Agreed.
FRANCIS: Thank you, brother.
STAN: Or sister.
FRANCIS: Or sister. Where was I?
REG: I think you'd finished.
FRANCIS: Oh. Right.
REG: Furthermore, it is the birthright of every man--
STAN: Or woman.
REG: Why don't you shut up about women, Stan. You're putting us off.
STAN: Women have a perfect right to play a part in our movement, Reg.
Rashomon Is a brilliant film.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/12/17/gay-in-the-manger-show-outrages-students/
And second, you could shuffle most of those parts and it would still look plausible.
ETA mind you, the angels on Captain Scarlet were clearly women.
"Can't have union with his wife until she gives birth here!"
I sound a bit grouchy I know, but the secular Christmas I rather love. Apart from the jollity of course
I do remember carrying a carpet, which I suppose would be accurate for someone wandering out of the Arabian desert.
Obviously the statistics are nonsense here but it is quite amusing. How early are our life chances set?
Australian (Stam Fine)
- Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B2NXFtM_YA (60 mins)
- Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXLuRx2rw6s (73 mins)
American (Matt Pearson aka Feral Historian)(Full article link)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/408effae3bedbe5c
(Never mind OnlyFans,)
People having their own opinion that I happen to disagree with, and putting on a performace on that basis that does not restrict my speech or actions, is NOT discrimination.
Full article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/1f98de3e3e33583d
I’m honestly just fed up with losers. Right-wing and left-wing politics is just losers from top to bottom who have an excessive amount of cultural power in the age of the internet because losers post on Reddit 79,000 times as much as people who have jobs
https://nitter.poast.org/SwannMarcus89/status/2001883311145406928#m
*admittedly as a parent of Fox jr
** the traditional presents are symbolic: Gold for a King, Frankincence for a prophet, and Myhrr for embalming a corpse. All fine and dandy of course, but not what a new mother wants to hear.
Why else would we say Myrrhy Christmas?
I think I'm with the Wee Frees on this.
And one reason private schools do better, even in showbiz, is that (certainly the boarding schools) do so much more drama, with house plays and school plays every few weeks, presumably on the grounds that it keeps them off street corners.
And for many children, the nativity play will be the first taste of that. Learning to project and hold an audience.
McCullum’s position likely to come under scrutiny
ECB believes mass sackings would be a mistake
The England and Wales Cricket Board is eager to avoid a mass clearout of England’s senior leadership in the wake of another humiliating away Ashes series defeat.
England’s hopes of winning the urn were expunged inside 11 days for just the fourth time in the contest’s 143-year history with Sunday’s 82-run defeat in Adelaide, and a fourth Ashes whitewash is on the cards in Melbourne and Sydney, unless the tourists can arrest a dismal 18-match run without a win in Australia that stretches back to 2011.
A full review of the tour’s planning and execution will take place following the final Test next month when jobs could be on the line, with Brendon McCullum’s position as head coach expected to come under the most scrutiny.
The Guardian has been told that the ECB do not want to repeat the mass cull that followed their 4-0 defeat in Australia four years ago, however, when coach Chris Silverwood and director of cricket Ashley Giles were sacked the following month, with Joe Root resigning as captain following another series defeat in the West Indies two months later.
While changes could still be made depending on the outcome of the rest of the tour, the ECB believes that mass sackings would be a mistake and leave England less well-placed to learn the lessons of the tour.
Rather than appointing a completely new leadership team, there is a desire at Lord’s to retain what one source described as some “institutional muscle memory” of an Ashes tour, which, given England’s dismal record of one series win since 1987, is in danger of appearing an insurmountable challenge.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/dec/21/ecb-clearout-england-leadership-ashes-defeat-australia-cricket
[Pope] Benedict puts the record straight in his third book on the life of Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, which was released on Tuesday and looks destined for the bestseller lists with an initial print run of one million.
Having dealt with Christ's adult life and death in his first two books, the pope tackles the birth of the son of God and puts paid to some myths surrounding the newly born Jesus's spell in a stable with Mary and Joseph.
"In the gospels there is no mention of animals," the pope states. He says references to the ox and the donkey in other parts of the Bible may have inspired Christians to include them in their nativity scenes.
The Vatican itself has included animals in the nativity scenes it sets up each year in St Peter's Square, and Benedict concedes that the tradition is here to stay. "No nativity scene will give up its ox and donkey," he says.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/pope-nativity-animals
Doesn't seem very conclusive, I presume the gospels don't mention the first poop from the divine baby, but we can safely assume it happened without it being an invention.
But the other gospels imply that they already lived in Bethlehem, which would make more sense. Luke seems to have gone off on one.
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who cares
Your own Personal Jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who's there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNd4eocq2K0
She requested a speaking role and all the female speaking roles had already been assigned and she was told she could be Joseph if she was happy with that. She agreed and did it well.
Seems more like what you might call 'individuals who stand out' even at age eight find that happens for the rest of their life.
We did Joseph and his amazing coat at primary school (thanks to a teacher knowing a professional music director with time on his hands). It was a big deal and the main part went to the good looking, tall, bright kid whose father was a GP and would likely be passing the 11+ with flying colours etc, etc. To be fair my memory is he could hold a note.
I was a fucking non-speaking brother iirc.
A lot of the story is to set up the birth of Jesus as fulfilling multiple Old Testament prophecies. Indeed there is no evidence that Herod held a census, let alone one that required people to travel to their ancestors town. But there had to be a reason for the Messiah to be born there as prophecied.
But fisking the story for facts is to miss the point. Ancient peoples were much more comfortable with myth, story telling and symbolism than our rather dry and dusty logic. The point is a radical one; that God is to be found in the most lowly places, not in gilded palaces, He is for everyone.
Or disagreed on what parts of 'the' point were signifcant, hence needing an illogical census etc.
I don't think we've got something to that degree here, but 2025 was the first time I can remember coming across so many comments pushing more racialised ideas of citizenship quite hard.
The whole splendid thing is a post hoc legitimation myth. The ancient world abounds in them. It is none the worse for that.
We wrote it, and it included some wonderful lines:
Me 'I'll go in my Skoda, because I'm a sconner. It was a waste of money.'*
Innkeeper: 'The sheep shearing sheds are just round the back.' (In what we earnestly assured the headmaster was a totally and utterly accidental slip, this became 'sheep shagging sheds' in the performance.)
Alasdair and Peter: 'We're the Three Wise Hippies and we come in Peace, Man!' (Vulcan Salute)
Me: 'No you're not, there's only two of you.'
Alasdair to Peter: 'Say, what have you done with that loser Steve?'
Peter: 'He was map reading and thought the map was wrong, so he went to Cairo.' (Not at all a reference to the unfortunate moment Steve was doing map reading on the DofE Bronze expedition and led them to totally the wrong place because he was holding it upside down and then insisted the map must have a mistake in it.)
Happy days...
*I'm currently on Skoda No. 4.
The only bit actually mentioned is the manger.
I get the stuff you're seeing now and worse.
In the past week I get to see the posts from the likes Lozza Fox, Rupert Lowe, somebody Lucy White who doesn't want Muslims in parliament.
It's like following Tommy Robinson's Twitter feed.
Only thing I still use it for is Messenger with my friends and family.
Which is a shame, as so many things are much more convenient now thanks to companies, but the attitude seems to have shifted.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5q1xd21w3o
She has been an MSP since 2021, and will now stand down at the election
Labour have tumbled in the polls since their win at the Maryhill council by election in December 2024, as it stands it will be an uphill task to take tis seat. The previous boundaries for Glasgow Kelvin were very friendly for the Greens, this new seat doesn't take in the city centre and goes further north than Maryhill, into some rural territory. I had fancied Patrick Harvie to stand here, but he's not listed as a constituency candidate yet.
I think the Greens could have taken the current Kelvin seat next year, with the new boundaries that will be tougher, but not impossible. The Greens will surely be pushing hard for at least a second list seat in Glasgow.
I thought there actually was a census in Judea, but prior to Herod, so Luke got the timeline a bit mixed up.
We've enough Jacks, Olivers and Jaydens.
@TheSnowDreamer
·
7h
Happy winter solstice! The length of day is a mere 7 hours 49 minutes and 51 second in London.
From tomorrow we will only be going up for next 181 days….