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Young Republicans drawn to Holocaust denial and racism – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,832
edited December 9 in General
Young Republicans drawn to Holocaust denial and racism – politicalbetting.com

The Manhattan Institute has done a detailed poll of Republican Party supporters and the different groups they might fall into. The whole thing is worth reading, but one result that jumps out is on conspiracy theories.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,061
    "Jones didn't get them all", as my American great-uncle liked to put it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908
    edited December 9
    First (not quite)

    Here’s a musical treat

    https://youtu.be/4D6_IhZA9Cg?si=mGkjask2j_u08dCV
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,964
    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,619
    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,498
    Carnyx said:

    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.

    Well put Carnyx - I've tried to make that analogy before, only less well. "There must still be immigration going on - I can still see those dark-skinned young men hanging around my town centre and my local hotel is still full of asylum seekers" rather than "immigration must be slowing - the number of dark-skinned young men hanging around my town centre and the number of hotels full of asylum seekers is staying at roughly the same number".

  • Taz said:

    First (not quite)

    Here’s a musical treat

    https://youtu.be/4D6_IhZA9Cg?si=mGkjask2j_u08dCV

    Doesn't that get you a lifetime ban, Taz?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,960
    Carnyx said:

    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.

    More likely, people have a misplaced trust that, if the news media goes big on a story, it must be important. See my favourite "time to end the disatrous democratic experiment" polling;

    Nor do people understand how much the government spends on different things. Asked which were the top three things on which their tax money is spent, 22% still picked MPs expenses – 15 years after that scandal broke and despite the fact IPSA’s current budget represents roughly 0.001% of all government spending. Meanwhile 27% of the population and 24% of Labour 2024 voters said that migrants and asylum seekers were one of the top three items the government spends the most on.

    https://portland-communications.com/uk-politics/budget-build-up-why-labour-is-on-a-collision-course-with-voters-on-tax/

    And that's in the UK, where our news media still aren't as bad as they are Stateside.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,498
    Taz said:

    First (not quite)

    Here’s a musical treat

    https://youtu.be/4D6_IhZA9Cg?si=mGkjask2j_u08dCV

    Excellent.
    On a similar note, for the Black Sabbath-inclined among us (feel forward to start at 0.30): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMA-D9LLiuk&list=RDGMA-D9LLiuk&start_radio=1
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,964
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.

    Well put Carnyx - I've tried to make that analogy before, only less well. "There must still be immigration going on - I can still see those dark-skinned young men hanging around my town centre and my local hotel is still full of asylum seekers" rather than "immigration must be slowing - the number of dark-skinned young men hanging around my town centre and the number of hotels full of asylum seekers is staying at roughly the same number".

    I was actually thinking more generally than that: all those students at the uni, the exotic shops and restaurants, and the people working in the bank ... and of course, most people's local hotels aren't full of asylum seekers.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908

    Taz said:

    First (not quite)

    Here’s a musical treat

    https://youtu.be/4D6_IhZA9Cg?si=mGkjask2j_u08dCV

    Doesn't that get you a lifetime ban, Taz?
    Probably two lifetimes as I posted it in the other thread too 😱
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908
    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    First (not quite)

    Here’s a musical treat

    https://youtu.be/4D6_IhZA9Cg?si=mGkjask2j_u08dCV

    Excellent.
    On a similar note, for the Black Sabbath-inclined among us (feel forward to start at 0.30): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMA-D9LLiuk&list=RDGMA-D9LLiuk&start_radio=1
    Brilliant
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,605
    edited December 9
    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,619
    FF43 said:

    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.

    Just wait until Elon Musk lands someone on the moon and thinking it's fake and generated by Grok becomes a normal progressive opinion.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,297
    A funny story from history ( I hope it is true). Karl Marx's mother was asked about her son's work. She replied " I wish he would make capital rather than writing about it."
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,895
    Surely the most worrying result of the poll is 51% who believe the 2020 election was fraudulent. Doesn't bode well for 2028.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373

    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA

    My computer demands age verification.

    Apparently there are two massive cocks on the video and it tripped the filter.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,895

    FF43 said:

    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.

    Just wait until Elon Musk lands someone on the moon and thinking it's fake and generated by Grok becomes a normal progressive opinion.
    "Import astronauts, become astronauts."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373

    Surely the most worrying result of the poll is 51% who believe the 2020 election was fraudulent. Doesn't bode well for 2028.

    How many of those are referring to Trump's efforts to rig it, which were still not enough?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,061
    I have a horrible feeling that before I die, it will have become orthodoxy that the Holocaust never happened.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,122

    FF43 said:

    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.

    Just wait until Elon Musk lands someone on the moon and thinking it's fake and generated by Grok becomes a normal progressive opinion.
    My God. I've heard of "whataboutery", but how absolutely insane can any human being become?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373
    edited December 9
    slade said:

    A funny story from history ( I hope it is true). Karl Marx's mother was asked about her son's work. She replied " I wish he would make capital rather than writing about it."

    There is a certain irony that the intellectual father of Communism spent most of his letters to his mother demanding she pass his father's money over to him, while living on the profits of a cotton mill dependent ultimately on slave labour to survive.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,061
    ydoethur said:

    slade said:

    A funny story from history ( I hope it is true). Karl Marx's mother was asked about her son's work. She replied " I wish he would make capital rather than writing about it."

    There is a certain irony that the intellectual father of Communism spent most of his letters to his mother demanding she pass his father's money over to him, while living on the profits of a cotton mill dependent ultimately on slave labour to survive.
    The use of slave labour is intrinsic to communism.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908
    Sean_F said:

    I have a horrible feeling that before I die, it will have become orthodoxy that the Holocaust never happened.

    What makes you say that ?

    How can a historically documented event, with video and picture evidence it happened simply be debunked by anyone other than fringe cranks ?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,891

    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA

    There is a BBC Louis Theroux doc where he spends a load of time with Nick Fuentes and fellow travellers. Eye opening stuff. I imagine it’s still on I-player.

    The thing I took away is like a lot of the leaders of the extremes they aren’t stupid but also aren’t remotely as clever as they think they are. This isn’t the good news people would hope for as we’ve seen through history that a lot of the big extreme leaders through history aren’t super brains but they tap into that market where enough people think they have the answers and they don’t expose themselves to proper scrutiny and so look like they are the answer. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc weren’t known for being philosopher kings.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,584

    Surely the most worrying result of the poll is 51% who believe the 2020 election was fraudulent. Doesn't bode well for 2028.

    The problem is one of human nature: people believe things which are convenient to them. And this is made worse by the fact that - both geographically and technologically - we hang out with (and only hear things from) people who agree with us.

    And if you don't know anyone who voted Democrat, how could they possibly have won the election?

    This tendency was kept in check for a long time, because we had a succession of leaders who were prepared to tell their own supporters the truth.

    Now we have a leader who tells people what they want to hear: it's not your fault, you were robbed, etc.

    Unfortunately, it's unbelievably corrosive.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,498
    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.

    Well put Carnyx - I've tried to make that analogy before, only less well. "There must still be immigration going on - I can still see those dark-skinned young men hanging around my town centre and my local hotel is still full of asylum seekers" rather than "immigration must be slowing - the number of dark-skinned young men hanging around my town centre and the number of hotels full of asylum seekers is staying at roughly the same number".

    I was actually thinking more generally than that: all those students at the uni, the exotic shops and restaurants, and the people working in the bank ... and of course, most people's local hotels aren't full of asylum seekers.
    The (genuine) students at the uni aren't that visible to Reform voters. They're worlds that don't tend to collide. And if I understand it correctly, that's an area where reducing numbers actually does lead to fewer visible foreigners, because students go home.

    You're bang on with exotic shops and restaurants of course.

    Most people's local hotels aren't full of asylum seekers but my guess is that most people know a local hotel which is - and they are a very visible reminder of immigrants.
  • boulay said:

    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA

    There is a BBC Louis Theroux doc where he spends a load of time with Nick Fuentes and fellow travellers. Eye opening stuff. I imagine it’s still on I-player.

    The thing I took away is like a lot of the leaders of the extremes they aren’t stupid but also aren’t remotely as clever as they think they are. This isn’t the good news people would hope for as we’ve seen through history that a lot of the big extreme leaders through history aren’t super brains but they tap into that market where enough people think they have the answers and they don’t expose themselves to proper scrutiny and so look like they are the answer. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc weren’t known for being philosopher kings.
    Mein Kampf should be compulsory reading in Secondary Schools so that everyone is fully aware of Hitler's intellectual standard.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908

    boulay said:

    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA

    There is a BBC Louis Theroux doc where he spends a load of time with Nick Fuentes and fellow travellers. Eye opening stuff. I imagine it’s still on I-player.

    The thing I took away is like a lot of the leaders of the extremes they aren’t stupid but also aren’t remotely as clever as they think they are. This isn’t the good news people would hope for as we’ve seen through history that a lot of the big extreme leaders through history aren’t super brains but they tap into that market where enough people think they have the answers and they don’t expose themselves to proper scrutiny and so look like they are the answer. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc weren’t known for being philosopher kings.
    Mein Kampf should be compulsory reading in Secondary Schools so that everyone is fully aware of Hitler's intellectual standard.
    He was just a paper hanger, no one more obscurer.
  • trukattrukat Posts: 98
    rcs1000 said:

    Surely the most worrying result of the poll is 51% who believe the 2020 election was fraudulent. Doesn't bode well for 2028.

    The problem is one of human nature: people believe things which are convenient to them. And this is made worse by the fact that - both geographically and technologically - we hang out with (and only hear things from) people who agree with us.

    And if you don't know anyone who voted Democrat, how could they possibly have won the election?

    This tendency was kept in check for a long time, because we had a succession of leaders who were prepared to tell their own supporters the truth.

    Now we have a leader who tells people what they want to hear: it's not your fault, you were robbed, etc.

    Unfortunately, it's unbelievably corrosive.
    Yes but it is more than that. The US has had vote rigging in the past. You then add in the fact that it takes them days to count the votes in some areas and you erode trust in the electoral system. It is why we should never allow on the night counting to stop. Get the votes in, get them counted, get the result out. Help people to maintain trust in the system.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,037
    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    I have a horrible feeling that before I die, it will have become orthodoxy that the Holocaust never happened.

    What makes you say that ?

    How can a historically documented event, with video and picture evidence it happened simply be debunked by anyone other than fringe cranks ?
    I have no idea what will happen, but we are not, as a species, evolved to be critical historians of things we and our immediate neighbours have not experienced. It takes considerable cultural discipline to comprehend the geographically and historically remote past at all. Nor are we evolved to have an interest in them.

    Mass popular participation in opinion about world things is extremely new. I very much doubt if our current media climate is especially good at curating it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373
    Taz said:

    boulay said:

    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA

    There is a BBC Louis Theroux doc where he spends a load of time with Nick Fuentes and fellow travellers. Eye opening stuff. I imagine it’s still on I-player.

    The thing I took away is like a lot of the leaders of the extremes they aren’t stupid but also aren’t remotely as clever as they think they are. This isn’t the good news people would hope for as we’ve seen through history that a lot of the big extreme leaders through history aren’t super brains but they tap into that market where enough people think they have the answers and they don’t expose themselves to proper scrutiny and so look like they are the answer. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc weren’t known for being philosopher kings.
    Mein Kampf should be compulsory reading in Secondary Schools so that everyone is fully aware of Hitler's intellectual standard.
    He was just a paper hanger, no one more obscurer.
    He was a painter. And there was a painter for you! Could paint an entire apartment, two coats, one afternoon!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mbUdsQfSq0
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,122
    "Trump criticises 'decaying' European countries and 'weak' leaders"

    Senility isn't kind, is it?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,141
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.

    Well put Carnyx - I've tried to make that analogy before, only less well. "There must still be immigration going on - I can still see those dark-skinned young men hanging around my town centre and my local hotel is still full of asylum seekers" rather than "immigration must be slowing - the number of dark-skinned young men hanging around my town centre and the number of hotels full of asylum seekers is staying at roughly the same number".

    I was actually thinking more generally than that: all those students at the uni, the exotic shops and restaurants, and the people working in the bank ... and of course, most people's local hotels aren't full of asylum seekers.
    The (genuine) students at the uni aren't that visible to Reform voters. They're worlds that don't tend to collide. And if I understand it correctly, that's an area where reducing numbers actually does lead to fewer visible foreigners, because students go home.

    You're bang on with exotic shops and restaurants of course.

    Most people's local hotels aren't full of asylum seekers but my guess is that most people know a local hotel which is - and they are a very visible reminder of immigrants.
    I've mentioned it before wrt Lee Anderson in 2024.

    There weren't any local asylum hotels, so he invented one out of thin air.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,010
    Chris said:

    "Trump criticises 'decaying' European countries and 'weak' leaders"

    Senility isn't kind, is it?

    All joking aside, he is 79 and there is a family history of dementia. What are the current prices for him not completing his term?
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    boulay said:

    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA

    There is a BBC Louis Theroux doc where he spends a load of time with Nick Fuentes and fellow travellers. Eye opening stuff. I imagine it’s still on I-player.

    The thing I took away is like a lot of the leaders of the extremes they aren’t stupid but also aren’t remotely as clever as they think they are. This isn’t the good news people would hope for as we’ve seen through history that a lot of the big extreme leaders through history aren’t super brains but they tap into that market where enough people think they have the answers and they don’t expose themselves to proper scrutiny and so look like they are the answer. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc weren’t known for being philosopher kings.
    Mein Kampf should be compulsory reading in Secondary Schools so that everyone is fully aware of Hitler's intellectual standard.
    He was just a paper hanger, no one more obscurer.
    He was a painter. And there was a painter for you! Could paint an entire apartment, two coats, one afternoon!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mbUdsQfSq0
    The absolute highlight of that interview for me, and it’s a segment I’ve watched dozens of times, is when he sings ‘when I’m cleaning windows’ hee hee !!
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908
    Chris said:

    "Trump criticises 'decaying' European countries and 'weak' leaders"

    Senility isn't kind, is it?

    He is totally wrong. European is vibrant, dynamic, nimble, robust and led by titans on the world stage
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,010

    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA

    The unspeakable in conversation with the unwatchable.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,037

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    Truth and facts will not have had their day for a bit yet. But there will be a wider and wider gulf between those who are interested in truth and facts - not easy things to lay hold of - and those who are not.

    And another gulf too; the gulf between those interested in truth and facts in themselves, and those whose passion is knowing their stuff so that they can know how to monetise and manipulate them especially to an audience of the less well informed.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,960
    edited December 9
    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    I have a horrible feeling that before I die, it will have become orthodoxy that the Holocaust never happened.

    What makes you say that ?

    How can a historically documented event, with video and picture evidence it happened simply be debunked by anyone other than fringe cranks ?
    The photographs are fakes. The people who were tried were tortured into making false confessions. The eyewitnesses were liars. David Irving and Norman Finklestein have proved it was all massively exaggerated. Stalin was worse. Churchill was worse. FDR was worse. Zionists exaggerated the whole thing to garner support for Israel.

    What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the GULAG? What about the Bengal Famine? What about Jim Crow?

    Those arguments will suffice for stupid people.
    And the first of those arguments is way more potent now that photographs and videos can be faked so easily. Bad people have faked photos for as long as there have been photos, but not it's trivial to do.

    And all so that horny technerds could see pictures of naked ladies.

    ETA: It's not just stupid people- it's also busy people, or people confronted with stuff they don't know much about. And when push comes to shove, it's pretty easy to manipulate clever people as well.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122

    boulay said:

    On topic, Piers Morgan conducted a two-hour interview with Nick Fuentes yesterday:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KXvjOJ7YA

    There is a BBC Louis Theroux doc where he spends a load of time with Nick Fuentes and fellow travellers. Eye opening stuff. I imagine it’s still on I-player.

    The thing I took away is like a lot of the leaders of the extremes they aren’t stupid but also aren’t remotely as clever as they think they are. This isn’t the good news people would hope for as we’ve seen through history that a lot of the big extreme leaders through history aren’t super brains but they tap into that market where enough people think they have the answers and they don’t expose themselves to proper scrutiny and so look like they are the answer. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc weren’t known for being philosopher kings.
    Mein Kampf should be compulsory reading in Secondary Schools so that everyone is fully aware of Hitler's intellectual standard.
    And when they compare it to current world leaders like the US President........
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,895
    algarkirk said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    Truth and facts will not have had their day for a bit yet. But there will be a wider and wider gulf between those who are interested in truth and facts - not easy things to lay hold of - and those who are not.

    And another gulf too; the gulf between those interested in truth and facts in themselves, and those whose passion is knowing their stuff so that they can know how to monetise and manipulate them especially to an audience of the less well informed.

    I blame religion.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,247
    algarkirk said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    Truth and facts will not have had their day for a bit yet. But there will be a wider and wider gulf between those who are interested in truth and facts - not easy things to lay hold of - and those who are not.

    And another gulf too; the gulf between those interested in truth and facts in themselves, and those whose passion is knowing their stuff so that they can know how to monetise and manipulate them especially to an audience of the less well informed.

    Yes, but those interested in truth and facts are increasingly a) a minority, and b) much less powerful than those who wish to spread misinformation.

    To give an example from today, Trump calling Sadiq Khan a "horrible, vicious, disgusting mayor". None of this is true, even if one doesn't like London's mayor or his politics. But, no doubt amplified by Musk, it will become "the truth" to a majority of people who don't know better. I find this frightening.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122

    algarkirk said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    Truth and facts will not have had their day for a bit yet. But there will be a wider and wider gulf between those who are interested in truth and facts - not easy things to lay hold of - and those who are not.

    And another gulf too; the gulf between those interested in truth and facts in themselves, and those whose passion is knowing their stuff so that they can know how to monetise and manipulate them especially to an audience of the less well informed.

    I blame religion.
    I blame Nick Clegg.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,772

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    Hopefully the under 16 ban will be adopted in most countries. Maybe the best way to regulate adults' use of social media would be to require them to use their real identity when posting. We all know that would seriously inhibit people from posting anti-social material.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,843
    edited December 9
    ydoethur said:

    slade said:

    A funny story from history ( I hope it is true). Karl Marx's mother was asked about her son's work. She replied " I wish he would make capital rather than writing about it."

    There is a certain irony that the intellectual father of Communism spent most of his letters to his mother demanding she pass his father's money over to him, while living on the profits of a cotton mill dependent ultimately on slave labour to survive.
    Far left being champagne socialists who live on daddy's money?

    Seems par for the course, not ironic.

    Tarquin would approve.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,895

    algarkirk said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    Truth and facts will not have had their day for a bit yet. But there will be a wider and wider gulf between those who are interested in truth and facts - not easy things to lay hold of - and those who are not.

    And another gulf too; the gulf between those interested in truth and facts in themselves, and those whose passion is knowing their stuff so that they can know how to monetise and manipulate them especially to an audience of the less well informed.

    Yes, but those interested in truth and facts are increasingly a) a minority, and b) much less powerful than those who wish to spread misinformation.

    To give an example from today, Trump calling Sadiq Khan a "horrible, vicious, disgusting mayor". None of this is true, even if one doesn't like London's mayor or his politics. But, no doubt amplified by Musk, it will become "the truth" to a majority of people who don't know better. I find this frightening.
    But that's how religion started. "God created the universe" - oldest conspiracy theory going.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,214
    @cooperlund.online‬

    I can’t emphasize enough how much you need to watch this until the end

    https://bsky.app/profile/cooperlund.online/post/3m7kzpgr7e22l
  • It's hard to keep up, is the covid lab leak theory a conspiracy again?
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,019
    edited December 9

    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    I have a horrible feeling that before I die, it will have become orthodoxy that the Holocaust never happened.

    What makes you say that ?

    How can a historically documented event, with video and picture evidence it happened simply be debunked by anyone other than fringe cranks ?
    The photographs are fakes. The people who were tried were tortured into making false confessions. The eyewitnesses were liars. David Irving and Norman Finklestein have proved it was all massively exaggerated. Stalin was worse. Churchill was worse. FDR was worse. Zionists exaggerated the whole thing to garner support for Israel.

    What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the GULAG? What about the Bengal Famine? What about Jim Crow?

    Those arguments will suffice for stupid people.
    And the first of those arguments is way more potent now that photographs and videos can be faked so easily. Bad people have faked photos for as long as there have been photos, but not it's trivial to do.

    And all so that horny technerds could see pictures of naked ladies.

    ETA: It's not just stupid people- it's also busy people, or people confronted with stuff they don't know much about. And when push comes to shove, it's pretty easy to manipulate clever people as well.
    I have a long-time friend from school days who, by objective measures (average A-levels, philosophy graduate from low-tier uni, academic but rather hum-drum job) isn't stupid. However, he has always thought of himself as one of life's deep thinkers, with a much deeper insight into the human condition than the rest of us. In the past this has manifested itself relatively harmlessly in professed expertise in woo stuff like alternative therapies and pseudoscientific theories.

    When social media became popular, he embraced it with enthusiasm as it provided him with justification and support for his wacky beliefs as well as providing a platform for him to spread his pearls of wisdom. Of late, though, things seem to have taken a more sinister turn. Twitter and the like have convinced him that he actually is the great intellectual that he always considered himself to be and that the modesty of his achievements are actually due to suppression and conspiracies by others. My once slightly dippy but amiable friend has now become a constantly angry bundle of rage and suspicion who is gradually alienating all of his old pals. It's all very sad.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122
    edited December 9

    It's hard to keep up, is the covid lab leak theory a conspiracy again?

    The only correct answer, bar from a handful of staff at the lab, is don't know. Both true and false will have been spun so many times by various intelligence agencies to a level at which even they don't know the answer, let alone us plebs.
  • Chris said:

    FF43 said:

    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.

    Just wait until Elon Musk lands someone on the moon and thinking it's fake and generated by Grok becomes a normal progressive opinion.
    My God. I've heard of "whataboutery", but how absolutely insane can any human being become?
    He's making the point that the susceptibility to conspiracy theories is not a preserve of the right, i wouldnt even say being on the right makes you more or less prone.

    There are many things, that the truth just no longer matters. Just keep repeating the lie and the truth goes away.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,298
    O/T Anyone used a Chromebook?

    Being told I will be given one for work and must use it rather than my own Macbook - security etc. Only really using it for web access + Google voice.

    Any experience?
  • Chris said:

    FF43 said:

    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.

    Just wait until Elon Musk lands someone on the moon and thinking it's fake and generated by Grok becomes a normal progressive opinion.
    My God. I've heard of "whataboutery", but how absolutely insane can any human being become?
    He's making the point that the susceptibility to conspiracy theories is not a preserve of the right, i wouldnt even say being on the right makes you more or less prone.

    There are many things, that the truth just no longer matters. Just keep repeating the lie and the truth goes away.
    It is not a point when the "whataboutery" is something fictional you have made up and are then positing as bollocks people [will] believe.

    Is there no actual bollocks you can quote to "whatabout"? If not, then making up your own is just bullshit.
  • O/T Anyone used a Chromebook?

    Being told I will be given one for work and must use it rather than my own Macbook - security etc. Only really using it for web access + Google voice.

    Any experience?

    Complete bag of spanners.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,605

    O/T Anyone used a Chromebook?

    Being told I will be given one for work and must use it rather than my own Macbook - security etc. Only really using it for web access + Google voice.

    Any experience?

    I use one. Slightly surprised it is required by work for security purposes when Windows has a lot more support for corporate networks and security controls.

    I would generally recommend if you are primarily using the browser, have an Android phone to share apps and data with and don't need Windows specific applications, eg Office. You get a lot more performance per £ than Apple and avoid the Windows upgrade nightmares.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,772
    The idea that civilisation would collapse if people weren't able to post anonymous online comments is a bit of a stretch imo.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,454

    Carnyx said:

    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.

    More likely, people have a misplaced trust that, if the news media goes big on a story, it must be important. See my favourite "time to end the disatrous democratic experiment" polling;

    Nor do people understand how much the government spends on different things. Asked which were the top three things on which their tax money is spent, 22% still picked MPs expenses – 15 years after that scandal broke and despite the fact IPSA’s current budget represents roughly 0.001% of all government spending. Meanwhile 27% of the population and 24% of Labour 2024 voters said that migrants and asylum seekers were one of the top three items the government spends the most on.

    https://portland-communications.com/uk-politics/budget-build-up-why-labour-is-on-a-collision-course-with-voters-on-tax/

    And that's in the UK, where our news media still aren't as bad as they are Stateside.
    Sometimes I just despair of humanity and want to find somewhere remote to live where none of these idiots can ruin my family's life.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,676
    Evening all :)

    My view on conspiracy theories is quite simple - given humanity's general stupidity and incompetence, the likelihood of complex interconnected events as part of a larger plan is so implausible as to be not worth considering. Post hoc ergo propter hoc may be a nice way for some to explain the world and how it works but it doesn't work for me.

    I incline more to the view most things are the result of ineptitude rather than insight and if we do something good or positive it's usually by accident rather than design. I know when I was working most of what I achieved was through accident - not all, some insight was involved but by no means all.

    On to what we're here for and Trump and his gang seem to think they have some kind of moral crusade to conduct about "Europe" which is apparently in a kind of decadence and decline comparable to 4th century Rome. I don't see that at all - Trump's entitled to his opinion but he's entitled to be wrong and it's interesting to hear this kind of language because it was the language of many, incliding intelllectuals, in the 1920s - a sense of moral and political decline for which a new modernity of political thought was the answer and that applied wherever you felt the answer existed.

    A century on and for all its faults, liberal democracy has done most people well. There are still challenges - child poverty, mental health and addiction woule count among my first three (but that's me) - but nothing I've heard from others suggests they have anything approaching solutions or anything which will improve the lives of most.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,272
    Carnyx said:

    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.

    Yes, I think that so.

    The objection is not to the flow but rather to the presence of immigrants at all.

    Hence all the discussion of mass deportation on the right.
  • Andy_JS said:

    The idea that civilisation would collapse if people weren't able to post anonymous online comments is a bit of a stretch imo.

    It would remove the ability for anonymous whistleblowers.

    I would have to give up PB if I wasn’t allowed to post under a nom de guerre.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,794
    edited December 9
    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    I have a horrible feeling that before I die, it will have become orthodoxy that the Holocaust never happened.

    What makes you say that ?

    How can a historically documented event, with video and picture evidence it happened simply be debunked by anyone other than fringe cranks ?
    The photographs are fakes. The people who were tried were tortured into making false confessions. The eyewitnesses were liars. David Irving and Norman Finklestein have proved it was all massively exaggerated. Stalin was worse. Churchill was worse. FDR was worse. Zionists exaggerated the whole thing to garner support for Israel.

    What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the GULAG? What about the Bengal Famine? What about Jim Crow?

    Those arguments will suffice for stupid people.
    You don’t even need to be stupid.

    Many of these arguments simply follow from the current bien pensant view that Churchill was a terrible racist who is responsible for famine in Bengal, that the Americans were (and presumably still are) white supremacists…and we haven’t even got to the Zionist part.
  • Andy_JS said:

    The idea that civilisation would collapse if people weren't able to post anonymous online comments is a bit of a stretch imo.

    Civilisation would not collapse, it would just make some things marginally worse.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,119
    edited December 9
    Chris said:

    FF43 said:

    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.

    Just wait until Elon Musk lands someone on the moon and thinking it's fake and generated by Grok becomes a normal progressive opinion.
    My God. I've heard of "whataboutery", but how absolutely insane can any human being become?
    You say that, but former MAGA talking points on the space program and SpaceX have crossed the divide already.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,045
    Chris said:

    "Trump criticises 'decaying' European countries and 'weak' leaders"

    Senility isn't kind, is it?

    It’s not that “senility isn’t kind” but more that it erodes the brain to mouth filter - ie you get to see the underlying character without a mask
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,272

    O/T Anyone used a Chromebook?

    Being told I will be given one for work and must use it rather than my own Macbook - security etc. Only really using it for web access + Google voice.

    Any experience?

    I think RCS is a fan, but I didn't really get on with it. Its quick for surfing, but the inbuilt google programmes were just too incompatable with either the Apple or MS Office documents that I deal with, so I replaced it with a mac, with MS Office installed, but even so the walled garden is a pain, for example transferring images from my Samsung phone.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,272

    Andy_JS said:

    The idea that civilisation would collapse if people weren't able to post anonymous online comments is a bit of a stretch imo.

    It would remove the ability for anonymous whistleblowers.

    I would have to give up PB if I wasn’t allowed to post under a nom de guerre.
    I think it better to make Social Media liable for what they publish.

    I like @viewcode idea that anything more complicated than chronological order for comments and posts means editorial control by the hosting company.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,663

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,803
    I noted yesterday that it seemed like there was a growing trend of some on the right getting more frustrated with the perennially online, conspiracy theoriest, racially focused right segments. Might just be the specific right wing people I tend to follow, but it does feel like there has been a shift in the last couple of years things have gotten ruder, cruder, and as sensitive as any fragile snowflake every criticised on the left.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,137
    Scott_xP said:

    @cooperlund.online‬

    I can’t emphasize enough how much you need to watch this until the end

    https://bsky.app/profile/cooperlund.online/post/3m7kzpgr7e22l

    Another AI video or just edited that way?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122
    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,137

    Andy_JS said:

    The idea that civilisation would collapse if people weren't able to post anonymous online comments is a bit of a stretch imo.

    It would remove the ability for anonymous whistleblowers.

    I would have to give up PB if I wasn’t allowed to post under a nom de guerre.
    Not to mention the really bad guys would have official fake IDs anyway, so what would we gain?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The idea that civilisation would collapse if people weren't able to post anonymous online comments is a bit of a stretch imo.

    It would remove the ability for anonymous whistleblowers.

    I would have to give up PB if I wasn’t allowed to post under a nom de guerre.
    I think it better to make Social Media liable for what they publish.

    I like @viewcode idea that anything more complicated than chronological order for comments and posts means editorial control by the hosting company.
    Fine for current usage. But it would quickly adapt to having bots push out the same message repeatedly to ensure you are top of the queue and read more frequently.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908

    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
    How about the BBC seeks its funding via ads or subscriptions and stops pouncing off the taxpayer.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122

    Andy_JS said:

    The idea that civilisation would collapse if people weren't able to post anonymous online comments is a bit of a stretch imo.

    It would remove the ability for anonymous whistleblowers.

    I would have to give up PB if I wasn’t allowed to post under a nom de guerre.
    Not to mention the really bad guys would have official fake IDs anyway, so what would we gain?
    A new cottage industry for the driving test touts to start selling unused or clean social media IDs.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,122

    Chris said:

    FF43 said:

    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.

    Just wait until Elon Musk lands someone on the moon and thinking it's fake and generated by Grok becomes a normal progressive opinion.
    My God. I've heard of "whataboutery", but how absolutely insane can any human being become?
    He's making the point that the susceptibility to conspiracy theories is not a preserve of the right, i wouldnt even say being on the right makes you more or less prone.
    Try applying a Bayesian approach.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,137
    FF43 said:

    O/T Anyone used a Chromebook?

    Being told I will be given one for work and must use it rather than my own Macbook - security etc. Only really using it for web access + Google voice.

    Any experience?

    I use one. Slightly surprised it is required by work for security purposes when Windows has a lot more support for corporate networks and security controls.

    I would generally recommend if you are primarily using the browser, have an Android phone to share apps and data with and don't need Windows specific applications, eg Office. You get a lot more performance per £ than Apple and avoid the Windows upgrade nightmares.
    Posted on patch Tuesday! Good luck, everyone.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122
    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
    How about the BBC seeks its funding via ads or subscriptions and stops pouncing off the taxpayer.
    This thread is about the loss of a shared set of truths and how corrosive that is to society. We need to fix this, rather than get ideological about it.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,605
    edited December 9

    It's hard to keep up, is the covid lab leak theory a conspiracy again?

    The only correct answer, bar from a handful of staff at the lab, is don't know. Both true and false will have been spun so many times by various intelligence agencies to a level at which even they don't know the answer, let alone us plebs.
    COVID origins is different from the others because of the big gaps in knowledge. So if you are evidence led it is really an assessment of probabilities.

    Personally I would say either Open Mind or Market are reasonable assessments on the evidence. Personally I would call it for Market because there is quite strong evidence for it, but this is not a situation where we must make decisions off the back of incomplete knowledge so we could decide to keep it completely open.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,663

    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
    Sure. Or to reduce income tax. Or VAT.

    We tax so many things which are not negative externalities extremely highly. Yet shy away from heavily taxing something which clearly does harm to many in society. They are global so we can't tax profits - so tax revenues.

    I appreciate the difficulty around banning anonymity etc. But it feels like we're at the "well we've tried nothing, and that hasn't worked, so we're all out of ideas" stage.

    Heavy tax and health warnings reduces smoking usage. Do the same for social media. We either raise lots of revenue, reduce social media usage, or a bit of both. All good outcomes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,272

    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Sean_F said:

    I have a horrible feeling that before I die, it will have become orthodoxy that the Holocaust never happened.

    What makes you say that ?

    How can a historically documented event, with video and picture evidence it happened simply be debunked by anyone other than fringe cranks ?
    The photographs are fakes. The people who were tried were tortured into making false confessions. The eyewitnesses were liars. David Irving and Norman Finklestein have proved it was all massively exaggerated. Stalin was worse. Churchill was worse. FDR was worse. Zionists exaggerated the whole thing to garner support for Israel.

    What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the GULAG? What about the Bengal Famine? What about Jim Crow?

    Those arguments will suffice for stupid people.
    And the first of those arguments is way more potent now that photographs and videos can be faked so easily. Bad people have faked photos for as long as there have been photos, but not it's trivial to do.

    And all so that horny technerds could see pictures of naked ladies.

    ETA: It's not just stupid people- it's also busy people, or people confronted with stuff they don't know much about. And when push comes to shove, it's pretty easy to manipulate clever people as well.
    I have a long-time friend from school days who, by objective measures (average A-levels, philosophy graduate from low-tier uni, academic but rather hum-drum job) isn't stupid. However, he has always thought of himself as one of life's deep thinkers, with a much deeper insight into the human condition than the rest of us. In the past this has manifested itself relatively harmlessly in professed expertise in woo stuff like alternative therapies and pseudoscientific theories.

    When social media became popular, he embraced it with enthusiasm as it provided him with justification and support for his wacky beliefs as well as providing a platform for him to spread his pearls of wisdom. Of late, though, things seem to have taken a more sinister turn. Twitter and the like have convinced him that he actually is the great intellectual that he always considered himself to be and that the modesty of his achievements are actually due to suppression and conspiracies by others. My once slightly dippy but amiable friend has now become a constantly angry bundle of rage and suspicion who is gradually alienating all of his old pals. It's all very sad.
    I was quite good friends with one of our male nurses, we had a shared love of Ska, Rocksteady, Roots and Dub reggae and would swap vinyl obscurities. In the end though he went down and down a weird rabbit hole and would spout racist and white supremacist conspiracy theories and "jokes" on Facebook and Twitter. It was even worse than @Leon or @Plato_Says on here.

    Rather weirdly he kept his enthusiasm for Lee "Scratch" Perry. Possibly he was just following the trajectory of most skinheads, from Ska to White Power. He died of bowel cancer in his fifties.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,137
    Chocolate prices jump by a fifth in run-up to Christmas
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/12/09/chocolate-prices-jump-by-a-fifth-in-run-up-to-christmas/ (£££)

    Not just RAM, apparently. Of course, earlier this year some chocolate biscuit brands reduced their cocoa content so much they can no longer call themselves chocolate biscuits.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,091
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    My view on conspiracy theories is quite simple - given humanity's general stupidity and incompetence, the likelihood of complex interconnected events as part of a larger plan is so implausible as to be not worth considering. Post hoc ergo propter hoc may be a nice way for some to explain the world and how it works but it doesn't work for me.

    I incline more to the view most things are the result of ineptitude rather than insight and if we do something good or positive it's usually by accident rather than design. I know when I was working most of what I achieved was through accident - not all, some insight was involved but by no means all.

    On to what we're here for and Trump and his gang seem to think they have some kind of moral crusade to conduct about "Europe" which is apparently in a kind of decadence and decline comparable to 4th century Rome. I don't see that at all - Trump's entitled to his opinion but he's entitled to be wrong and it's interesting to hear this kind of language because it was the language of many, incliding intelllectuals, in the 1920s - a sense of moral and political decline for which a new modernity of political thought was the answer and that applied wherever you felt the answer existed.

    A century on and for all its faults, liberal democracy has done most people well. There are still challenges - child poverty, mental health and addiction woule count among my first three (but that's me) - but nothing I've heard from others suggests they have anything approaching solutions or anything which will improve the lives of most.

    It seems to be part of denigrate degenerate Europe and support the last bastion of Christianity in Europe i.e. Russia. There seems to be some sort of coordination about messaging if you caught the Russian comments about Ukraine at the UN.

    Either that or he's having a fit about not being able to get the Peace prize as it moves out with his reach. He'll just have to make do with FIFA's award.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,676
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Mm. Immigration as total number in UK (which is the everyday sensory reality) confused with immigration as the diffrerential of the former, net or otherwise?

    I wonder if there is some confusion somewhere - much as those Tories used to claim how inflation had dropped, immediately after prices had increased by around 10% the previous year, and it didn't seem to work on the public.

    Yes, I think that so.

    The objection is not to the flow but rather to the presence of immigrants at all.

    Hence all the discussion of mass deportation on the right.
    We're back to the old favourite of facts, figures, perceptions and realities.

    The experiences of people in their communities counts for far more than Government numbers and the widespread perception remains of an immigration system which is out of control and of preferential treatment being afforded (literally) to asylum seekers to the detriment of the indigenous population. Add to that the sense of cultural and economic identity being threatened and undermined by "outsiders" and you can see why the debate is where it is and talk of wholesale deportations of individuals and even social groups is in the mainstream.

    This has worked to the advantage of individuals and groups whose view on migrants is somewhere between unfriendly and downright hostile but this view has been aided and abetted by the failure of successive Governments to be seen to be acting in what the indigenous population considers a "fair" manner. I think if you asked a lot of people whether migrants should be housed in 4-star hotels, old army camps or in tents in fields, the Canvas Party would likely win a majority.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,214

    O/T Anyone used a Chromebook?

    Being told I will be given one for work and must use it rather than my own Macbook - security etc. Only really using it for web access + Google voice.

    Any experience?

    I have one I use just for the web, and for that it's great. Starts up instantly. Always up to date.

    At work we have been talking to Google about various things, and one of them is the Secure Enterprise Browser. The pitch is that since (almost) everything you need to do at work is via a browser, if you put all your security controls in the browser you can do away with an entire stack of network gear, all of which is required just to stop bad things happening at your machine.

    I will be surprised if we go that route since we are currently a Microsoft shop, but if the price is right...
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
    How about the BBC seeks its funding via ads or subscriptions and stops pouncing off the taxpayer.
    This thread is about the loss of a shared set of truths and how corrosive that is to society. We need to fix this, rather than get ideological about it.
    Get BBC Verify on the case 😉

    We need to stop expecting taxpayers to fund the state broadcaster. Let it seek its funding in the marketplace.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,013
    Scott_xP said:

    @cooperlund.online‬

    I can’t emphasize enough how much you need to watch this until the end

    https://bsky.app/profile/cooperlund.online/post/3m7kzpgr7e22l

    I viewed that on my work laptop. I now have to delete my browser history for the last hour. A NSFW warning would have been helpful. :(
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
    How about the BBC seeks its funding via ads or subscriptions and stops pouncing off the taxpayer.
    This thread is about the loss of a shared set of truths and how corrosive that is to society. We need to fix this, rather than get ideological about it.
    Get BBC Verify on the case 😉

    We need to stop expecting taxpayers to fund the state broadcaster. Let it seek its funding in the marketplace.
    And it will then be as open to toxicity as all other news outlets. You may want that, and will probably get it once Farage takes power, but not for me thanks.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,272
    On a lighter note. Mrs Foxy finished dressing our tree today. Dog for scale...


  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,258
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
    How about the BBC seeks its funding via ads or subscriptions and stops pouncing off the taxpayer.
    This thread is about the loss of a shared set of truths and how corrosive that is to society. We need to fix this, rather than get ideological about it.
    Get BBC Verify on the case 😉

    We need to stop expecting taxpayers to fund the state broadcaster. Let it seek its funding in the marketplace.
    They'll manage to resolve the arse/elbow conundrum soon I'm sure.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,301
    Trump is now repeating Russian propaganda:

    Trump: It was an understanding that Ukraine would not be going into NATO. This was long before Putin, in all fairness.

    And now they pushed, you know, when Zelensky first went in and first met Putin, he said, “I want two things. I want Crimea back and we’re going to be a member of NATO.” He didn’t say it in a very nice way either.

    https://x.com/SavchenkoReview/status/1998355621947596859

    Zelensky said the exact opposite, on both issues, when he met Putin (for the only time) in 2019 - offering referendums in both Crimea and Donbass.

    Putin's public causus belli was, of course, Ukraine's wish to join the EU.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    FF43 said:

    It's the 36% figure for moon landings were fake that strikes me. It used be a joke benchmark for a statistically insignificant opinion:"Fewer think X than the moon landings were fake". Now it's an actual thing.

    Just wait until Elon Musk lands someone on the moon and thinking it's fake and generated by Grok becomes a normal progressive opinion.
    My God. I've heard of "whataboutery", but how absolutely insane can any human being become?
    He's making the point that the susceptibility to conspiracy theories is not a preserve of the right, i wouldnt even say being on the right makes you more or less prone.
    Try applying a Bayesian approach.
    That's very popular with conspiracy theorists as well. Bloke called Richard Carrier tried to use it to prove the odds were every scholar other than him in his field was a liar who was covering up a sensational truth.

    He took a slight hit in the credibility when he described probability as being the same as frequency and put out a one line exercise in algebra (which he got wrong) as a proof.

    Not terribly surprising when you realise the only training he had in Bayesian statistics was a three day course in how to manage sonar equipment when he was a technician in the US Coastguard.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908
    edited December 9

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
    How about the BBC seeks its funding via ads or subscriptions and stops pouncing off the taxpayer.
    This thread is about the loss of a shared set of truths and how corrosive that is to society. We need to fix this, rather than get ideological about it.
    Get BBC Verify on the case 😉

    We need to stop expecting taxpayers to fund the state broadcaster. Let it seek its funding in the marketplace.
    And it will then be as open to toxicity as all other news outlets. You may want that, and will probably get it once Farage takes power, but not for me thanks.
    Why the snide personal dig, it’s pathetic assuming what I want from TV news, I don’t have to fund something I have no interest in watching.

    I rarely watch TV news, I’m not alone there, and what little I do BBC News is just as crap as ITV News.

    There is no justification for the license fee in this day and age and has not been for a while. This is something I have argued for, the abolition of it, for over three decades. We will win eventually
  • viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @cooperlund.online‬

    I can’t emphasize enough how much you need to watch this until the end

    https://bsky.app/profile/cooperlund.online/post/3m7kzpgr7e22l

    I viewed that on my work laptop. I now have to delete my browser history for the last hour. A NSFW warning would have been helpful. :(
    Pah, I’ve watched porn on my work laptop, in front of colleagues.

    Okay, we were viewing what an employee had viewed on his laptop before we decided to terminate him or not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373

    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @cooperlund.online‬

    I can’t emphasize enough how much you need to watch this until the end

    https://bsky.app/profile/cooperlund.online/post/3m7kzpgr7e22l

    I viewed that on my work laptop. I now have to delete my browser history for the last hour. A NSFW warning would have been helpful. :(
    Pah, I’ve watched porn on my work laptop, in front of colleagues.

    Okay, we were viewing what an employee had viewed on his laptop before we decided to terminate him or not.
    Did you find it hard when making this decision?
  • ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @cooperlund.online‬

    I can’t emphasize enough how much you need to watch this until the end

    https://bsky.app/profile/cooperlund.online/post/3m7kzpgr7e22l

    I viewed that on my work laptop. I now have to delete my browser history for the last hour. A NSFW warning would have been helpful. :(
    Pah, I’ve watched porn on my work laptop, in front of colleagues.

    Okay, we were viewing what an employee had viewed on his laptop before we decided to terminate him or not.
    Did you find it hard when making this decision?
    It was as entertaining as watching the current Ashes.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,908
    edited December 9

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @cooperlund.online‬

    I can’t emphasize enough how much you need to watch this until the end

    https://bsky.app/profile/cooperlund.online/post/3m7kzpgr7e22l

    I viewed that on my work laptop. I now have to delete my browser history for the last hour. A NSFW warning would have been helpful. :(
    Pah, I’ve watched porn on my work laptop, in front of colleagues.

    Okay, we were viewing what an employee had viewed on his laptop before we decided to terminate him or not.
    Did you find it hard when making this decision?
    It was as entertaining as watching the current Ashes.
    So did his porn watching finish him off ? Or was there a happy ending for him ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,122
    edited December 9
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    The data in the header suggests that it isn't just children who are susceptible to the banality of social media. Whether Australia's approach will work or not is open to question. But even if it does, personally I think adults' use of social media is just as much an issue as children's, and I've no idea what can be done about that. But unless something is done, truth and facts have had their day, and it will only get worse.

    For starters lets tax it like we do tobacco.
    20% tax on social media and government adverts on the harms of social media?

    Maybe they should be forced to show examples of harm at the top of the page like cigarette packets.

    "Steve lost all his friends, his marriage and his job after going down a far-right racist rabbit hole here."

    "Emma committed suicide after being bullied on our platform for months"

    Etc
    How about tax social media to replace the BBC licence fee.....
    How about the BBC seeks its funding via ads or subscriptions and stops pouncing off the taxpayer.
    This thread is about the loss of a shared set of truths and how corrosive that is to society. We need to fix this, rather than get ideological about it.
    Get BBC Verify on the case 😉

    We need to stop expecting taxpayers to fund the state broadcaster. Let it seek its funding in the marketplace.
    And it will then be as open to toxicity as all other news outlets. You may want that, and will probably get it once Farage takes power, but not for me thanks.
    Why the snide personal dig, it’s pathetic assuming what I want from TV news, I don’t have to fund something I have no interest in watching.

    I rarely watch TV news, I’m not alone there, and what little I do BBC News is just as crap as ITV News.

    There is no justification for the license fee in this day and age and has not been for a while. This is something I have argued for, the abolition of it, for over three decades. We will win eventually
    Yours is a selfish view imo. We have benefited from a century of shared understanding of the truth, I freely admit to having a dim view of those who want to replace it with a commercial framework that inevitably will lead to toxic disinformation.

    On direction of travel, I agree you will win.
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