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A Streeting named desire – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,787
edited 9:18AM in General
A Streeting named desire – politicalbetting.com

I like Wes Streeting when he’s angry. pic.twitter.com/shzPca08Rf

Read the full story here

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  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,577
    First like Wes!!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,749
    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 9:09AM
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper monthly.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,387
    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,741
    Why Meloni is an exceptional politician

    Giorgia Meloni, Italy’s prime minister, is an exceptional politician. Under her leadership there has been political stability in Italy for the first time in over 15 years

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JYZ3OdkfRM4

    Three minutes from the Economist on Meloni.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 9:10AM
    "Sir Keir Starmer is a man so passionless that he could send a glass eye to sleep (that isn’t a criticism, sometimes we need boring in our lives."

    The claim it will be boring but enjoy the calm, the competence, well that is out the window.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,387
    edited 9:11AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 9:18AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,562
    Not perhaps the best of opening puns, @TSE, " A Streeting Named Desire" would be slightly better in my humble...

    Anyroadup, Ken Clarke's evisceration of Reform on Thursday's QT seems to have struck a few nerves among the Reform commentariat on social media and I doubt he'll be getting any Christmas cards from any of them.

    The truth is he's forgotten more about politics and government than most of us will ever remember.

    I can't speak for other parties but in the LDs, candidates for local elections in target areas were always summoned to meetings in advance and given a briefing on what to do if you get elected. Said candidates were often activists so had a degree of political nous (to a point) but if a paper candidate suddenly found themselves elected, there was an unholy rush to bring said surprising winner up to speed.

    It helped if you had some pre-existing presence on the Council or even former Councillors on whom you could call for advice and guidance.

    Reform appear to have done very little of this - those who stood for the party who were or had been Councillors from other parties obviously could provide some insight but it looks as though the incoming ruling groups were completely unprepared for what faced them when they turned up to be sworn in at the Council HQ on the Monday or Tuesday after the election.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,346
    This morning’s Russian oil refinery with a smoking problem is Ryazan, again.

    https://x.com/tatarigami_ua/status/1989535986653827135
    https://x.com/angelshalagina/status/1989620376507125908
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,749
    stodge said:

    Not perhaps the best of opening puns, @TSE, " A Streeting Named Desire" would be slightly better in my humble...

    Anyroadup, Ken Clarke's evisceration of Reform on Thursday's QT seems to have struck a few nerves among the Reform commentariat on social media and I doubt he'll be getting any Christmas cards from any of them.

    The truth is he's forgotten more about politics and government than most of us will ever remember.

    I can't speak for other parties but in the LDs, candidates for local elections in target areas were always summoned to meetings in advance and given a briefing on what to do if you get elected. Said candidates were often activists so had a degree of political nous (to a point) but if a paper candidate suddenly found themselves elected, there was an unholy rush to bring said surprising winner up to speed.

    It helped if you had some pre-existing presence on the Council or even former Councillors on whom you could call for advice and guidance.

    Reform appear to have done very little of this - those who stood for the party who were or had been Councillors from other parties obviously could provide some insight but it looks as though the incoming ruling groups were completely unprepared for what faced them when they turned up to be sworn in at the Council HQ on the Monday or Tuesday after the election.

    Changed it. I meant to use named, but I overslept and am in a rush.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,738

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    'Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation' sounds dodgy to me.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,854
    This is an official US government account.
    Bow before your new 4chan rulers, puny libs.

    Homeland Security
    @DHSgov
    Womp womp, cry all you want. These criminal illegal aliens aren’t getting released.

    Like clockwork, violent rioters have arrived at the Broadview ICE facility to demand the release of some of the worst human beings on planet earth.

    Get a job you imbecilic morons.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/1989402784316493957?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 9:20AM

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    Failing ever upwards....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,193

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,387

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    No I get all that - politically it's bonkers. And I'm not all in on EVs - my petrol car is outside the window as I type this. Does this alleged new tax make driving the shitbox cheaper than my Tesla? No. And despite some of the previous tax breaks being withdrawn more EVs keep being sold. Because I think we're beyond the tipping point now. People get that they are a better drive.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,412
    edited 9:25AM

    Why Meloni is an exceptional politician

    Giorgia Meloni, Italy’s prime minister, is an exceptional politician. Under her leadership there has been political stability in Italy for the first time in over 15 years

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JYZ3OdkfRM4

    Three minutes from the Economist on Meloni.

    She's now a pro EU centrist and she's her own person. What's not to like?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 9:25AM
    "The Environment Agency said it has limited resources for enforcement, that the estimated cost of removal is greater than the entire annual budget of the local district council."

    "The Environment Agency would only step in and clear this or any site if it was abandoned, had no identifiable person, or the waste posed an imminent threat to life – we operate under the Polluter Pays Principle."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y4dxlgkp4o

    Put a letter in the wrong bin, £1000 fine, undertake massive industrial fly tipping, sorry no money to look into it, not our job to clean it up.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,562

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    I have to say Ken Clarke, even at this advanced years, wouldn't be the worst choice at this time.

    Unfortunately, there's little sign of "centrism" in the modern Conservative Party which I suspect is a cause of anxiety for you. I'd like to hear more from the LDs on what they would do to reduce borrowing - a windfall tax on banks is all very well and good but it's a drop in the ocean when you are looking at £150 billion borrowing.

    Property reform, by which I mean updating the Council Tax (more bands, bringing more houses into higher bands recognising what has happened since 1991) and Land Value Taxation are interesting options (the carrot, both political and economic, might be to abolish Stamp Duty), is long overdue.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,026

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    I've just bought an EV, ex demonstrator. I pay road tax, I will have to pay congestion charge from January, I am ulez compliant, but so are most cars less than 10 years old. Fuel duty I don't pay because I don't buy fuel, but I do pay 20% vat on my electrical energy as I don't have a home charger. I also don't pollute the atmosphere.

    I think I made the right decision.

    😐
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,933
    stodge said:

    Not perhaps the best of opening puns, @TSE, " A Streeting Named Desire" would be slightly better in my humble...

    Anyroadup, Ken Clarke's evisceration of Reform on Thursday's QT seems to have struck a few nerves among the Reform commentariat on social media and I doubt he'll be getting any Christmas cards from any of them.

    The truth is he's forgotten more about politics and government than most of us will ever remember.

    I can't speak for other parties but in the LDs, candidates for local elections in target areas were always summoned to meetings in advance and given a briefing on what to do if you get elected. Said candidates were often activists so had a degree of political nous (to a point) but if a paper candidate suddenly found themselves elected, there was an unholy rush to bring said surprising winner up to speed.

    It helped if you had some pre-existing presence on the Council or even former Councillors on whom you could call for advice and guidance.

    Reform appear to have done very little of this - those who stood for the party who were or had been Councillors from other parties obviously could provide some insight but it looks as though the incoming ruling groups were completely unprepared for what faced them when they turned up to be sworn in at the Council HQ on the Monday or Tuesday after the election.

    Simple common sense solutions innit
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,026

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    I've just bought an EV, ex demonstrator. I pay road tax, I will have to pay congestion charge from January, I am ulez compliant, but so are most cars less than 10 years old. Fuel duty I don't pay because I don't buy fuel, but I do pay 20% vat on my electrical energy as I don't have a home charger. I also don't pollute the atmosphere.

    I think I made the right decision.

    😐
    Ppm holds no worries for me, as the government needs to tax to pay for all the missiles etc.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,395

    Why Meloni is an exceptional politician

    Giorgia Meloni, Italy’s prime minister, is an exceptional politician. Under her leadership there has been political stability in Italy for the first time in over 15 years

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JYZ3OdkfRM4

    Three minutes from the Economist on Meloni.

    Meloni is exceptional because she's the only right wing populist who even bothers to run a competent government.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,395
    stodge said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    I have to say Ken Clarke, even at this advanced years, wouldn't be the worst choice at this time.

    Unfortunately, there's little sign of "centrism" in the modern Conservative Party which I suspect is a cause of anxiety for you. I'd like to hear more from the LDs on what they would do to reduce borrowing - a windfall tax on banks is all very well and good but it's a drop in the ocean when you are looking at £150 billion borrowing.

    Property reform, by which I mean updating the Council Tax (more bands, bringing more houses into higher bands recognising what has happened since 1991) and Land Value Taxation are interesting options (the carrot, both political and economic, might be to abolish Stamp Duty), is long overdue.
    Indeed. Keir Starmer is the worst politician in the UK right now.

    Except all the others. (Ed Davey maybe not included)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,767
    edited 9:40AM
    System said:

    A Streeting named desire – politicalbetting.com

    I like Wes Streeting when he’s angry. pic.twitter.com/shzPca08Rf

    Read the full story here

    Slightly odd modulation to his voice. Rather flat. Felt like he was repeating something he had learnt beforehand rather than actually speaking with genuine passion.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,562

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    First, I'm sorry to hear you are struggling. If coming on here and arguing with some tired old hacks helps, more power to your keyboard, my friend.

    I lament the failure of this incarnation of Labour to be radical much as I did that of Blair in 1997. Perhaps there was going to be a radical second term pace Thatcher after 1983 but the events of September 11th 2001 changed everything as we know.

    The lesson, and I think it's one of Stodge's Political Laws (seventeen or eighteen), is it's never too early to be radical. Both Asquith and Attlee were radical from the minute they got into Government but it seems political timidity in the face of a hostile media (whether written, broadcat or social) is the order of the day for non-Conservative Governments - presumably there is a sense of the fragility of the voting coalition which got them elected.

    From my earliest political stirrings in the 1970s doing my homework by candlelight, I had the sense Labour and the Conservatives were two cheeks of the same arse. Not sure it's as true now as it was then back in the days of the duopoly and let's not forget they still got 58% of the vote and won 532 seats out of 650 between them last time so rumours of its demise may yet be exaggerated.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,395
    On topic. Respect is a two-way Streeting.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,741
    EVs, tax, the budget and the economy. As ever, it is a question of framing.

    Are in-work benefits lifting people out of poverty or subsidising abusive employers?

    Are housing benefits tackling homelessness or subsidising bad landlords?

    Are we promoting the take-up of EVs to help the environment, or writing subsidy cheques to an often hostile dictatorship and the richest man on the planet?

    Is Wes Streeting saving the NHS or paying for American private healthcare?


  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,627
    FF43 said:

    stodge said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    I have to say Ken Clarke, even at this advanced years, wouldn't be the worst choice at this time.

    Unfortunately, there's little sign of "centrism" in the modern Conservative Party which I suspect is a cause of anxiety for you. I'd like to hear more from the LDs on what they would do to reduce borrowing - a windfall tax on banks is all very well and good but it's a drop in the ocean when you are looking at £150 billion borrowing.

    Property reform, by which I mean updating the Council Tax (more bands, bringing more houses into higher bands recognising what has happened since 1991) and Land Value Taxation are interesting options (the carrot, both political and economic, might be to abolish Stamp Duty), is long overdue.
    Indeed. Keir Starmer is the worst politician in the UK right now.

    Except all the others. (Ed Davey maybe not included)
    And part of Ed Davey's quality comes from not having to explain what he would do about our national conundrum.

    Starmer's dismalness has been on full display this week. But it still looks like everyone else would be worse, and I don't know what the answer to that systemic problem is. In my lifetime, the job of PM has always defeated the person doing it, even Thatcher and Blair, and now it does so within a couple of years.

    I'd love to think that a really really good politician could educate the electorate the choice is between paying more taxes and getting less stuff, and yes that includes you, Mr Average-Voter. But when the misinformation system is as toxic as it currently is, I don't think it's possible.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,499

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    I have one of those infamous letters somewhere - must look it out.

    Now it seems councils going bankrupt are two a penny. Deggsy was a pioneer.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,506

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper monthly.
    Average new car, or average new electric car? And is that a mean or median average because those are distorted.

    My car (Japanese origin, not Chinese, self-charging non-plug in petrol hybrid) set me back ~£14k, new, 2 years ago. RRP then was £18k but negotiated a discount. RRP now is still less than £20k, and presumably can be attained for even cheaper if you negotiate hard as I did.

    However yes, I don't see why everyone would with the way the market is going switch beyond hybrids to EVs, especially for those without off-road parking it is already not just more expensive to buy the vehicle, but to charge it too, so it makes no sense whatsoever. Which always gets some "I'm alright Jack" fool to retort "oh I pay this little when I charge it at home" which is not an option for millions without off road parking. 🤦‍♂️

    I am bemused that most people will be considering the congestion charge. I've never paid a penny of congestion charge in my life, thankfully those living in nearby Manchester had the good sense to reject that stupid policy and it hasn't happened anywhere else up here either. Most people don't live in London.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 9:59AM

    FF43 said:

    stodge said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    I have to say Ken Clarke, even at this advanced years, wouldn't be the worst choice at this time.

    Unfortunately, there's little sign of "centrism" in the modern Conservative Party which I suspect is a cause of anxiety for you. I'd like to hear more from the LDs on what they would do to reduce borrowing - a windfall tax on banks is all very well and good but it's a drop in the ocean when you are looking at £150 billion borrowing.

    Property reform, by which I mean updating the Council Tax (more bands, bringing more houses into higher bands recognising what has happened since 1991) and Land Value Taxation are interesting options (the carrot, both political and economic, might be to abolish Stamp Duty), is long overdue.
    Indeed. Keir Starmer is the worst politician in the UK right now.

    Except all the others. (Ed Davey maybe not included)
    And part of Ed Davey's quality comes from not having to explain what he would do about our national conundrum.

    Starmer's dismalness has been on full display this week. But it still looks like everyone else would be worse, and I don't know what the answer to that systemic problem is. In my lifetime, the job of PM has always defeated the person doing it, even Thatcher and Blair, and now it does so within a couple of years.

    I'd love to think that a really really good politician could educate the electorate the choice is between paying more taxes and getting less stuff, and yes that includes you, Mr Average-Voter. But when the misinformation system is as toxic as it currently is, I don't think it's possible.

    Uncle Vince was brilliant as this. Never off the media 2005-2010, on one hand the government could do this, on the other hand that. Gets into government, bloody uselss.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,621
    edited 10:00AM

    FF43 said:

    stodge said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    I have to say Ken Clarke, even at this advanced years, wouldn't be the worst choice at this time.

    Unfortunately, there's little sign of "centrism" in the modern Conservative Party which I suspect is a cause of anxiety for you. I'd like to hear more from the LDs on what they would do to reduce borrowing - a windfall tax on banks is all very well and good but it's a drop in the ocean when you are looking at £150 billion borrowing.

    Property reform, by which I mean updating the Council Tax (more bands, bringing more houses into higher bands recognising what has happened since 1991) and Land Value Taxation are interesting options (the carrot, both political and economic, might be to abolish Stamp Duty), is long overdue.
    Indeed. Keir Starmer is the worst politician in the UK right now.

    Except all the others. (Ed Davey maybe not included)
    And part of Ed Davey's quality comes from not having to explain what he would do about our national conundrum.

    Starmer's dismalness has been on full display this week. But it still looks like everyone else would be worse, and I don't know what the answer to that systemic problem is. In my lifetime, the job of PM has always defeated the person doing it, even Thatcher and Blair, and now it does so within a couple of years.

    I'd love to think that a really really good politician could educate the electorate the choice is between paying more taxes and getting less stuff, and yes that includes you, Mr Average-Voter. But when the misinformation system is as toxic as it currently is, I don't think it's possible.

    Starmer and Reeves have been dismal this week. Neither deserve to survive after Streeting and the pre budget U turn before she has even stood up in Parliament.

    The utter joy from the PB Tories in this instance is well deserved. Although I would like to remind them who broke Britain and that the earth salting for the next government by Sunak and Hunt was pure genius if only Reform hadn't surprised them as the challengers to Labour for government in 2029.

    I have had some sympathy with Starmer trying to govern in the face of a relentless storm of shit from the Telegraph, Mail, GBNews and social media, although the position they find themselves in today after the last ten days is entirely of their own making. Starmer putting 12 year old schoolboy Morgan McSweeney in charge of everything was of itself a schoolboy error.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,506

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    The problem is that petrol is so efficient, economically, that even though our fuel price is almost entirely tax it is already cheaper per mile to drive a self-charging hybrid than it is to drive an EV charged with public charger ports. Add on an EV tax as well, and the distortion goes even wider.

    OK for those who can charge at home, but other than those, what do you do? Stupid, stupid, stupid.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,956

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,956
    edited 10:05AM
    I find this hard to post but...

    MJG has gone up in my estimation.

    "“I am withdrawing my support and endorsement of ‘Congresswoman’ Marjorie Taylor Greene, of the great state of Georgia,” Trump posted on Truth Social on Friday evening. “All I see ‘Wacky’ Marjorie do is COMPLAIN, COMPLAIN, COMPLAIN!”"

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/14/trump-marjorie-taylor-greene-support
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,384

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,554
    edited 10:12AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    No I get all that - politically it's bonkers. And I'm not all in on EVs - my petrol car is outside the window as I type this. Does this alleged new tax make driving the shitbox cheaper than my Tesla? No. And despite some of the previous tax breaks being withdrawn more EVs keep being sold. Because I think we're beyond the tipping point now. People get that they are a better drive.
    I'd be interested in a detailed study of the demand curve for EVs - for some people with drives and doing mainly short journeys the market price can be pretty high; for others living in flats doing long trips (like me) it will be very low. All the government needs to achieve is a new car market where for 80%+ of people an EV makes sense - the used car market will follow on naturally.

    This quickly becomes quite complicated - the new car market is made up of some of the highest income people in country, if you consider that the average car is now over 10 years old and car owners in general tend to be the highest income people anyway. So while I agree with FrancisUrquhart that all the incentives are pointing in the wrong direction at the moment, I would suggest that the current price of them isn't as massive an issue as people sometimes think - it doesn't matter if people like me are priced out at the moment.

    Imagine a scenario where both electricity and petrol had kept pace with general inflation over the last decade. Electricity would be 30% cheaper than it is now, and fuel would be 20% more expensive. If that was the case I think the EV transition would have happened much, much quicker and with much less of the angst that we see today.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,621
    edited 10:11AM
    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    They fell in 49 days and the bond markets freaked out with some immediacy. If you want to add statistical evidence to the bond market point you can look for yourself.

    Oh, and Starmer didn't kill the Queen.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,621
    edited 10:12AM

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    ...or Johnson.

    Although Mrs May is coming across as a Titan of British politics by way of contrast.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,021

    This is an official US government account.
    Bow before your new 4chan rulers, puny libs.

    Homeland Security
    @DHSgov
    Womp womp, cry all you want. These criminal illegal aliens aren’t getting released.

    Like clockwork, violent rioters have arrived at the Broadview ICE facility to demand the release of some of the worst human beings on planet earth.

    Get a job you imbecilic morons.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/1989402784316493957?s=20

    I'm genuinely surprised at them demanding the release of these worst human beings.

    I didn't know Trump, Miller and Hegseth had even been locked up.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,026
    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    In my local by-election in deepest Leicestershire earlier this month compared to 2021 the Conservative vote went from 59.8% to 26.4% and Labour from 13.2% to 3.4% Whilst the 2021 result was a larger area the results are reasonably comparable. I was second to Reform.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,300

    MattW said:

    This is quite concerning. NATOs Wedgetail (= AWACS replacement) programme has been afaics essentially killed by US withdrawal.

    I'm not sure where this laves the UK.

    NATO’s effort to replace its ageing E-3A Sentry fleet has been upended after the United States pulled out of the alliance’s planned purchase of up to six Boeing E-7 Wedgetails, leaving the programme without a strategic or financial anchor, the UK Defence Journal understands.

    The Dutch Ministry of Defence confirmed that Washington withdrew from the AWACS replacement effort in July, prompting the Netherlands and several European partners to abandon the joint plan.
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/nato-scraps-e-7-wedgetail-plan-as-allies-hunt-new-awacs/

    Hopefully an alternative without the US can be jointly embarked upon, so that countries aren't reliant on the fickle giant across the Pond.
    It already exists, and is a much cheaper system, with not greatly inferior capability, built by Saab.

    The E7 Wedgetail looks like another MoD procurement disaster, where we order a highly expensive US system, which becomes massively more expensive after we reduce the order - barely saving any money overall, and ending up with half the capability.

    For the same cost, you could have the Saab, plus scores of military satellites (which is what the US is planning to replace it with).

    Our military procurement is a disaster, powered by hubris and incompetence.

    The desire to have the 'best' system regularly means committing to something we can't really afford, which ends up delivered late, at a stupid unit cost, often obsolescent, and in insufficient numbers.

    Meanwhile the basics - enough ammunition to fight a war that lasts beyond a week, for example - are neglected.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,506
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    No I get all that - politically it's bonkers. And I'm not all in on EVs - my petrol car is outside the window as I type this. Does this alleged new tax make driving the shitbox cheaper than my Tesla? No. And despite some of the previous tax breaks being withdrawn more EVs keep being sold. Because I think we're beyond the tipping point now. People get that they are a better drive.
    I'd be interested in a detailed study of the demand curve for EVs - for some people with drives and doing mainly short journeys the market price can be pretty high; for others living in flats doing long trips (like me) it will be very low. All the government needs to achieve is a new car market where for 80%+ of people an EV makes sense - the used car market will follow on naturally.

    This quickly becomes quite complicated - the new car market is made up of some of the highest income people in country, if you consider that the average car is now over 10 years old and car owners in general tend to be the highest income people anyway. So while I agree with FrancisUrquhart that all the incentives are pointing in the wrong direction at the moment, I would suggest that the current price of them isn't as massive an issue as people sometimes think - it doesn't matter if people like me are priced out at the moment.

    Imagine a scenario where both electricity and petrol had kept pace with general inflation over the last decade. Electricity would be 30% cheaper than it is now, and fuel would be 20% more expensive. If that wasn't the case I think the EV transition would have happened much, much quicker and with much less of the angst that we see today.
    Yet fuel prices are already almost entirely tax, and are due to be phased out.

    Electricity prices are not.

    If fuel taxes had been ramped up beyond their already astronomical levels, then that would just widen the black hole the government would be facing when the tax is phased out.

    And no, you can't just transfer petrol taxes to 'per mile' or electricity to replace it, since the electricity is already too expensive. Government will just need to find its revenues from everyone and not just drivers anymore.

    And no, car owners in general do not tend to be the highest income people. More than three quarters of the country own a car, the highest earners in the country are not more than three quarters of the country. Oh and don't forget London has more higher earners, but considerable lower car ownership, and subsidised public transport.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,021

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    They fell in 49 days and the bond markets freaked out with some immediacy. If you want to add statistical evidence to the bond market point you can look for yourself.

    Oh, and Starmer didn't kill the Queen.
    His attempt at assassinating Streeting was as inept as the rest of his policies.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 10:19AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper monthly.
    Average new car, or average new electric car? And is that a mean or median average because those are distorted.

    My car (Japanese origin, not Chinese, self-charging non-plug in petrol hybrid) set me back ~£14k, new, 2 years ago. RRP then was £18k but negotiated a discount. RRP now is still less than £20k, and presumably can be attained for even cheaper if you negotiate hard as I did.

    However yes, I don't see why everyone would with the way the market is going switch beyond hybrids to EVs, especially for those without off-road parking it is already not just more expensive to buy the vehicle, but to charge it too, so it makes no sense whatsoever. Which always gets some "I'm alright Jack" fool to retort "oh I pay this little when I charge it at home" which is not an option for millions without off road parking. 🤦‍♂️

    I am bemused that most people will be considering the congestion charge. I've never paid a penny of congestion charge in my life, thankfully those living in nearby Manchester had the good sense to reject that stupid policy and it hasn't happened anywhere else up here either. Most people don't live in London.
    Average car cost. There are a number of different figure out there, but the car inflation has been massive the past few years so its hard to pin down one absolute figure.

    rising to average of £42,340 in May 2024
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/363624/average-new-car-price-ps40k-simply-too-high-most-people

    With the average EV purchase price hovering around £46,000. - 2025
    https://wecovr.com/guides/average-cost-of-an-electric-car-in-the-uk-2025/

    average new petrol car £45,218
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/06/old-bangers-dominate-uk-roads-average-car-is-10-years-old/

    According to Philip Nothard, insight director at Cox Automotive, a key factor is the rising price of new cars, up 129% over the past 15 years from an average of £22,868 to £52,342. - 26 November 2024
    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/average-car-age-grows-new-car-prices-rocket-129-15-years

    Basically whichever number you want to go with they are all above luxury car tax level. Its again big time fiscal drag. It came in in 2017, when £40k was the cost of a "proper" luxury car, now a slightly above average car or an average car with some extras.

    Congestion / clean air zones have been popping up all over the place after the last government allowed locals council to introduce them. Bath, Birmingham, Bristol, Bradford. Its an obvious tax grab, and the goal posts keep moving for the ones that have been introduced.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,028
    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,506

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper monthly.
    Average new car, or average new electric car? And is that a mean or median average because those are distorted.

    My car (Japanese origin, not Chinese, self-charging non-plug in petrol hybrid) set me back ~£14k, new, 2 years ago. RRP then was £18k but negotiated a discount. RRP now is still less than £20k, and presumably can be attained for even cheaper if you negotiate hard as I did.

    However yes, I don't see why everyone would with the way the market is going switch beyond hybrids to EVs, especially for those without off-road parking it is already not just more expensive to buy the vehicle, but to charge it too, so it makes no sense whatsoever. Which always gets some "I'm alright Jack" fool to retort "oh I pay this little when I charge it at home" which is not an option for millions without off road parking. 🤦‍♂️

    I am bemused that most people will be considering the congestion charge. I've never paid a penny of congestion charge in my life, thankfully those living in nearby Manchester had the good sense to reject that stupid policy and it hasn't happened anywhere else up here either. Most people don't live in London.
    Average car cost. There are a number of different figure out there, but the car inflation has been massive the past few years so its hard to pin down one absolute figure.

    rising to average of £42,340 in May 2024
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/363624/average-new-car-price-ps40k-simply-too-high-most-people

    With the average EV purchase price hovering around £46,000. - 2025
    https://wecovr.com/guides/average-cost-of-an-electric-car-in-the-uk-2025/

    average new petrol car £45,218
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/06/old-bangers-dominate-uk-roads-average-car-is-10-years-old/

    According to Philip Nothard, insight director at Cox Automotive, a key factor is the rising price of new cars, up 129% over the past 15 years from an average of £22,868 to £52,342. - 26 November 2024
    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/average-car-age-grows-new-car-prices-rocket-129-15-years

    Basically they are all above luxury car tax level.
    Median average according to your first link. I expect that's more vehicles than the mean average, as mean averages tend to be higher that medians.

    Median being just above the threshold doesn't mean all are above the threshold of course, but it does mean that most are. Nearly half the market (approximately) will be below it, with some vehicles like my own less than half the cost of that threshold.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,021

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Have they offered to put you up in a hotel?

    If not, that is outrageous.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 10:25AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper monthly.
    Average new car, or average new electric car? And is that a mean or median average because those are distorted.

    My car (Japanese origin, not Chinese, self-charging non-plug in petrol hybrid) set me back ~£14k, new, 2 years ago. RRP then was £18k but negotiated a discount. RRP now is still less than £20k, and presumably can be attained for even cheaper if you negotiate hard as I did.

    However yes, I don't see why everyone would with the way the market is going switch beyond hybrids to EVs, especially for those without off-road parking it is already not just more expensive to buy the vehicle, but to charge it too, so it makes no sense whatsoever. Which always gets some "I'm alright Jack" fool to retort "oh I pay this little when I charge it at home" which is not an option for millions without off road parking. 🤦‍♂️

    I am bemused that most people will be considering the congestion charge. I've never paid a penny of congestion charge in my life, thankfully those living in nearby Manchester had the good sense to reject that stupid policy and it hasn't happened anywhere else up here either. Most people don't live in London.
    Average car cost. There are a number of different figure out there, but the car inflation has been massive the past few years so its hard to pin down one absolute figure.

    rising to average of £42,340 in May 2024
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/363624/average-new-car-price-ps40k-simply-too-high-most-people

    With the average EV purchase price hovering around £46,000. - 2025
    https://wecovr.com/guides/average-cost-of-an-electric-car-in-the-uk-2025/

    average new petrol car £45,218
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/06/old-bangers-dominate-uk-roads-average-car-is-10-years-old/

    According to Philip Nothard, insight director at Cox Automotive, a key factor is the rising price of new cars, up 129% over the past 15 years from an average of £22,868 to £52,342. - 26 November 2024
    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/average-car-age-grows-new-car-prices-rocket-129-15-years

    Basically they are all above luxury car tax level.
    Median average according to your first link. I expect that's more vehicles than the mean average, as mean averages tend to be higher that medians.

    Median being just above the threshold doesn't mean all are above the threshold of course, but it does mean that most are. Nearly half the market (approximately) will be below it, with some vehicles like my own less than half the cost of that threshold.
    The first says median, others say average. And that was a year ago, its up against this year. The point was a) it was supposed to be "luxury" not a Qashqai with a nicer interior and b) EV are still more expensive on average (particularly if you exclude the BYDs of this world). The point was nudge people into an EV by not having to worry about if it was £40k or not, plus you would give a subsidy to bring the price down to match an ICE.

    Also luxury car tax is not to be sniffed at, you have to pay ~£2.5k in total from years 2-6.

    Its not joined up thinking by the government if your mission if to get everybody into an EV in a few year time.

    Plug In Hybrids are a fast growing sector of the car market.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,506

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper monthly.
    Average new car, or average new electric car? And is that a mean or median average because those are distorted.

    My car (Japanese origin, not Chinese, self-charging non-plug in petrol hybrid) set me back ~£14k, new, 2 years ago. RRP then was £18k but negotiated a discount. RRP now is still less than £20k, and presumably can be attained for even cheaper if you negotiate hard as I did.

    However yes, I don't see why everyone would with the way the market is going switch beyond hybrids to EVs, especially for those without off-road parking it is already not just more expensive to buy the vehicle, but to charge it too, so it makes no sense whatsoever. Which always gets some "I'm alright Jack" fool to retort "oh I pay this little when I charge it at home" which is not an option for millions without off road parking. 🤦‍♂️

    I am bemused that most people will be considering the congestion charge. I've never paid a penny of congestion charge in my life, thankfully those living in nearby Manchester had the good sense to reject that stupid policy and it hasn't happened anywhere else up here either. Most people don't live in London.
    Average car cost. There are a number of different figure out there, but the car inflation has been massive the past few years so its hard to pin down one absolute figure.

    rising to average of £42,340 in May 2024
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/363624/average-new-car-price-ps40k-simply-too-high-most-people

    With the average EV purchase price hovering around £46,000. - 2025
    https://wecovr.com/guides/average-cost-of-an-electric-car-in-the-uk-2025/

    average new petrol car £45,218
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/06/old-bangers-dominate-uk-roads-average-car-is-10-years-old/

    According to Philip Nothard, insight director at Cox Automotive, a key factor is the rising price of new cars, up 129% over the past 15 years from an average of £22,868 to £52,342. - 26 November 2024
    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/average-car-age-grows-new-car-prices-rocket-129-15-years

    Basically they are all above luxury car tax level.
    Median average according to your first link. I expect that's more vehicles than the mean average, as mean averages tend to be higher that medians.

    Median being just above the threshold doesn't mean all are above the threshold of course, but it does mean that most are. Nearly half the market (approximately) will be below it, with some vehicles like my own less than half the cost of that threshold.
    The first says median, others say average. And that was a year ago, its up against this year. The point was a) it was supposed to be "luxury" not a Qashqai was some extra bits and b) EV are still more expensive on average (particularly if you exclude the BYDs of this world).
    Indeed, many lazy reporters have no idea about the difference between mean and medians. However its moot, since if the median is above the threshold, you can pretty much guarantee the mean is too as means almost inevitably are above medians as the bell curve has a much longer tail towards the more expensive vehicles (or whatever else you are looking at).
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,028
    ydoethur said:

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Have they offered to put you up in a hotel?

    If not, that is outrageous.
    No. They sent me two text messages yesterday. The first when the power went, with the 4:30 guess, and the second at 4pm with an 8pm guess

    Since then: nothing. I've been checking their website to get the later guesses
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,621
    ydoethur said:

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Have they offered to put you up in a hotel?

    If not, that is outrageous.
    When I lived in Cradley, Herefordshire as a teenager in the late 1970s (and into the early 1980s) we could be without power for a fortnight without so much as a cheery "sorry" from the MEB. We lived in new houses which had oil powered central heating (fired by electricity). We lived in a row of seven executive style houses and our next door neighbour had furnished their house with a wood burning stove so we (all 6 other households) went to their house for the daylight hours.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,749
    edited 10:30AM

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Are you or anyone on your household on the priority services register? You should be given your recent accident, if you're not, contact your supplier and the network now.

    When the power went off for three days at our house because my mother is on the PSR, Northern PowerGrid came round with power banks/portable generators so our electricity could work.

    https://thepsr.co.uk/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 10:29AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper monthly.
    Average new car, or average new electric car? And is that a mean or median average because those are distorted.

    My car (Japanese origin, not Chinese, self-charging non-plug in petrol hybrid) set me back ~£14k, new, 2 years ago. RRP then was £18k but negotiated a discount. RRP now is still less than £20k, and presumably can be attained for even cheaper if you negotiate hard as I did.

    However yes, I don't see why everyone would with the way the market is going switch beyond hybrids to EVs, especially for those without off-road parking it is already not just more expensive to buy the vehicle, but to charge it too, so it makes no sense whatsoever. Which always gets some "I'm alright Jack" fool to retort "oh I pay this little when I charge it at home" which is not an option for millions without off road parking. 🤦‍♂️

    I am bemused that most people will be considering the congestion charge. I've never paid a penny of congestion charge in my life, thankfully those living in nearby Manchester had the good sense to reject that stupid policy and it hasn't happened anywhere else up here either. Most people don't live in London.
    Average car cost. There are a number of different figure out there, but the car inflation has been massive the past few years so its hard to pin down one absolute figure.

    rising to average of £42,340 in May 2024
    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/363624/average-new-car-price-ps40k-simply-too-high-most-people

    With the average EV purchase price hovering around £46,000. - 2025
    https://wecovr.com/guides/average-cost-of-an-electric-car-in-the-uk-2025/

    average new petrol car £45,218
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/06/old-bangers-dominate-uk-roads-average-car-is-10-years-old/

    According to Philip Nothard, insight director at Cox Automotive, a key factor is the rising price of new cars, up 129% over the past 15 years from an average of £22,868 to £52,342. - 26 November 2024
    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/average-car-age-grows-new-car-prices-rocket-129-15-years

    Basically they are all above luxury car tax level.
    Median average according to your first link. I expect that's more vehicles than the mean average, as mean averages tend to be higher that medians.

    Median being just above the threshold doesn't mean all are above the threshold of course, but it does mean that most are. Nearly half the market (approximately) will be below it, with some vehicles like my own less than half the cost of that threshold.
    The first says median, others say average. And that was a year ago, its up against this year. The point was a) it was supposed to be "luxury" not a Qashqai was some extra bits and b) EV are still more expensive on average (particularly if you exclude the BYDs of this world).
    Indeed, many lazy reporters have no idea about the difference between mean and medians. However its moot, since if the median is above the threshold, you can pretty much guarantee the mean is too as means almost inevitably are above medians as the bell curve has a much longer tail towards the more expensive vehicles (or whatever else you are looking at).
    The Chinese are aggressively pricing their cars in that £30-35k range e.g. The fake Range Rover, the Jaecoo 7, is a petrol or plug in hyrbid around that price and selling well.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,387
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    No I get all that - politically it's bonkers. And I'm not all in on EVs - my petrol car is outside the window as I type this. Does this alleged new tax make driving the shitbox cheaper than my Tesla? No. And despite some of the previous tax breaks being withdrawn more EVs keep being sold. Because I think we're beyond the tipping point now. People get that they are a better drive.
    I'd be interested in a detailed study of the demand curve for EVs - for some people with drives and doing mainly short journeys the market price can be pretty high; for others living in flats doing long trips (like me) it will be very low. All the government needs to achieve is a new car market where for 80%+ of people an EV makes sense - the used car market will follow on naturally.

    This quickly becomes quite complicated - the new car market is made up of some of the highest income people in country, if you consider that the average car is now over 10 years old and car owners in general tend to be the highest income people anyway. So while I agree with FrancisUrquhart that all the incentives are pointing in the wrong direction at the moment, I would suggest that the current price of them isn't as massive an issue as people sometimes think - it doesn't matter if people like me are priced out at the moment.

    Imagine a scenario where both electricity and petrol had kept pace with general inflation over the last decade. Electricity would be 30% cheaper than it is now, and fuel would be 20% more expensive. If that was the case I think the EV transition would have happened much, much quicker and with much less of the angst that we see today.
    The reason why I am largely nonplussed by the alleged tax proposal (and I'm saying so on Monday's forthcoming video) is that I think road pricing is inevitable. New Zealand did precisely what the Reformgraph reported - a volunteer up your EV mileage and pay your tax system which has been quickly replaced by general road pricing and no fuel duty.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,767

    FF43 said:

    stodge said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    I have to say Ken Clarke, even at this advanced years, wouldn't be the worst choice at this time.

    Unfortunately, there's little sign of "centrism" in the modern Conservative Party which I suspect is a cause of anxiety for you. I'd like to hear more from the LDs on what they would do to reduce borrowing - a windfall tax on banks is all very well and good but it's a drop in the ocean when you are looking at £150 billion borrowing.

    Property reform, by which I mean updating the Council Tax (more bands, bringing more houses into higher bands recognising what has happened since 1991) and Land Value Taxation are interesting options (the carrot, both political and economic, might be to abolish Stamp Duty), is long overdue.
    Indeed. Keir Starmer is the worst politician in the UK right now.

    Except all the others. (Ed Davey maybe not included)
    And part of Ed Davey's quality comes from not having to explain what he would do about our national conundrum.

    Starmer's dismalness has been on full display this week. But it still looks like everyone else would be worse, and I don't know what the answer to that systemic problem is. In my lifetime, the job of PM has always defeated the person doing it, even Thatcher and Blair, and now it does so within a couple of years.

    I'd love to think that a really really good politician could educate the electorate the choice is between paying more taxes and getting less stuff, and yes that includes you, Mr Average-Voter. But when the misinformation system is as toxic as it currently is, I don't think it's possible.

    It’s not the “job of PM” that’s the problem, it’s the quality of our politicians and our media (and by extension the voters).

    The PM is the “prime” minister, not the only minister. We have a Cabinet system - in an ideal world, Cabinet Ministers would be “big beasts” with their own thoughts and policies and be given enough time in post to execute. The PM should be setting the strategy (like an executive chair) and then allow ministers to get on with it and only get directly involved in the most sensitive big events (budget, foreign policy, etc).

    However:

    1. Our PMs lack the confidence to have strong independent politicians in cabinets
    2. Our Cabinet ministers are schemers rather than people with a policy vision and the patience to execute
    3. Our media is always demanding to know “what does the PM think” (I’d love to see the PM answer “X is responsible for that - talk to them”). The PM’s public interventions should be rare and powerful (eg people pay more attention when John Major speaks then when Boris Johnson does because the former is more selective about when he gets involved)
    4. The voters don’t care enough to demand better

    For me, the fundamental answer is to allow Cabinet Ministers to be drawn from outside Parliament. The skills needed are different. I would make the Commons focused on scrutiny and legislating - beef up the committees, for example and resource them properly. You need to make sure that the Cabinet can be held accountable by parliament but that doesn’t necessarily require them to be members. I would, however, require the PM to be a member of parliament.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,045
    edited 10:38AM

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    No I get all that - politically it's bonkers. And I'm not all in on EVs - my petrol car is outside the window as I type this. Does this alleged new tax make driving the shitbox cheaper than my Tesla? No. And despite some of the previous tax breaks being withdrawn more EVs keep being sold. Because I think we're beyond the tipping point now. People get that they are a better drive.
    I'd be interested in a detailed study of the demand curve for EVs - for some people with drives and doing mainly short journeys the market price can be pretty high; for others living in flats doing long trips (like me) it will be very low. All the government needs to achieve is a new car market where for 80%+ of people an EV makes sense - the used car market will follow on naturally.

    This quickly becomes quite complicated - the new car market is made up of some of the highest income people in country, if you consider that the average car is now over 10 years old and car owners in general tend to be the highest income people anyway. So while I agree with FrancisUrquhart that all the incentives are pointing in the wrong direction at the moment, I would suggest that the current price of them isn't as massive an issue as people sometimes think - it doesn't matter if people like me are priced out at the moment.

    Imagine a scenario where both electricity and petrol had kept pace with general inflation over the last decade. Electricity would be 30% cheaper than it is now, and fuel would be 20% more expensive. If that was the case I think the EV transition would have happened much, much quicker and with much less of the angst that we see today.
    The reason why I am largely nonplussed by the alleged tax proposal (and I'm saying so on Monday's forthcoming video) is that I think road pricing is inevitable. New Zealand did precisely what the Reformgraph reported - a volunteer up your EV mileage and pay your tax system which has been quickly replaced by general road pricing and no fuel duty.
    IMO if that is your end goal, don't do it just on EVs for a few years. You move to it across the board. Or very least say starting with EVs next year, by 2028, all cars. Something like that. Then there isn't the negative incentive of appearing to be just this extra tax specially on EVs.

    My concern with any new tax, government just can't help themselves but use it to increase the overall tax take.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,028

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Are you or anyone on your household on the priority services register? You should be given your recent accident, if you're not, contact your supplier and the network now.

    When the power went off for three days at our house because my mother is on the PSR, Northern PowerGrid came round with power banks/portable generators so our electricity could work.

    https://thepsr.co.uk/
    Not as far as I am aware..

    I'm supposed to be going back to work in a couple of days, so I'm not confident that I could get on it now
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,498
    Controlled anger can have a place as long as you don't lose it. On doctors and consultants pay Streeting is right, they have had a pay rise above inflation and have got a bigger rise than what nurses have received for example
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,197
    ...

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    They fell in 49 days and the bond markets freaked out with some immediacy. If you want to add statistical evidence to the bond market point you can look for yourself.

    Oh, and Starmer didn't kill the Queen.
    Complete BS in other words.

    Starmer and Reeves' embrace of the 'crashed the economy' narrative on Truss has already begun to sink its fangs into their generous behinds, and that will not stop until what little is left of their economic reputations lies in smouldering ruins.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,522

    ydoethur said:

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Have they offered to put you up in a hotel?

    If not, that is outrageous.
    When I lived in Cradley, Herefordshire as a teenager in the late 1970s (and into the early 1980s) we could be without power for a fortnight without so much as a cheery "sorry" from the MEB. We lived in new houses which had oil powered central heating (fired by electricity). We lived in a row of seven executive style houses and our next door neighbour had furnished their house with a wood burning stove so we (all 6 other households) went to their house for the daylight hours.
    A very well prepared colleague got the last laugh on those who mocked him, a few years back.

    ‘Leccy went out - big storm . First he knew was when the wife called him on the “funny phone” (satellite phone and she was very non-techical) - all the phones were dead, including mobile.

    His house was fine, because he had a generator that ran on fuel oil, and a UPS. Main power going out caused the UPS to fire up the generator.

    His house was the only one with heating and lights for a week.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,506
    HYUFD said:

    Controlled anger can have a place as long as you don't lose it. On doctors and consultants pay Streeting is right, they have had a pay rise above inflation and have got a bigger rise than what nurses have received for example

    Controlled anger is a tricky but useful skill, agreed. It has a time and place, and can help you get your point across meaning you don't need to lose it.

    People who don't learn how to express controlled anger can be those who are more likely to bottle up their emotions until they erupt and lose it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,767
    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    They fell in 49 days and the bond markets freaked out with some immediacy. If you want to add statistical evidence to the bond market point you can look for yourself.

    Oh, and Starmer didn't kill the Queen.
    His attempt at assassinating Streeting was as inept as the rest of his policies.
    Wes Streeting isn’t a Queen though…
  • eekeek Posts: 31,906

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    No I get all that - politically it's bonkers. And I'm not all in on EVs - my petrol car is outside the window as I type this. Does this alleged new tax make driving the shitbox cheaper than my Tesla? No. And despite some of the previous tax breaks being withdrawn more EVs keep being sold. Because I think we're beyond the tipping point now. People get that they are a better drive.
    I'd be interested in a detailed study of the demand curve for EVs - for some people with drives and doing mainly short journeys the market price can be pretty high; for others living in flats doing long trips (like me) it will be very low. All the government needs to achieve is a new car market where for 80%+ of people an EV makes sense - the used car market will follow on naturally.

    This quickly becomes quite complicated - the new car market is made up of some of the highest income people in country, if you consider that the average car is now over 10 years old and car owners in general tend to be the highest income people anyway. So while I agree with FrancisUrquhart that all the incentives are pointing in the wrong direction at the moment, I would suggest that the current price of them isn't as massive an issue as people sometimes think - it doesn't matter if people like me are priced out at the moment.

    Imagine a scenario where both electricity and petrol had kept pace with general inflation over the last decade. Electricity would be 30% cheaper than it is now, and fuel would be 20% more expensive. If that was the case I think the EV transition would have happened much, much quicker and with much less of the angst that we see today.
    The reason why I am largely nonplussed by the alleged tax proposal (and I'm saying so on Monday's forthcoming video) is that I think road pricing is inevitable. New Zealand did precisely what the Reformgraph reported - a volunteer up your EV mileage and pay your tax system which has been quickly replaced by general road pricing and no fuel duty.
    IMO if that is your end goal, don't do it just on EVs for a few years. You move to it across the board. Or very least say starting with EVs next year, by 2028, all cars. Something like that. Then there isn't the negative incentive of appearing to be just this extra tax specially on EVs.

    My concern with any new tax, government just can't help themselves but use it to increase the overall tax take.
    Yep a token cut in fuel duty (say 3p) followed by 1p a mile for ice cars and 3p for BEV would make sense or even 15p off fuel duty and charge all cars 3p a mile.

    Now there would be complaints from the countryside but that can be rectified by implementing a lower rate if your car is registered in the middle of nowhere.

    That would require more thinking through of steps than this Government is capable of though..

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,767

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Be fair. Their estimate was 99.7% accurate
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,395
    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    45 is the number you're looking for.

    Days in office. Truss wasn't allowed to sink further than the cataclysm she unleashed.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,158
    edited 10:57AM
    It does feel like the Labour government of 74-79 when after two years Wilson was replaced by Callaghan. Perhaps this is what Kemi Badenoch is banking on? Some would argue the real turning point in post war UK politics was the IMF moment in 1976.

    The BMA definitely seems out of control. The hard left is re-emerging as a proper menace. But will voters resort to the traditional conservative response anymore?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,767
    edited 10:57AM

    ydoethur said:

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Have they offered to put you up in a hotel?

    If not, that is outrageous.
    When I lived in Cradley, Herefordshire as a teenager in the late 1970s (and into the early 1980s) we could be without power for a fortnight without so much as a cheery "sorry" from the MEB. We lived in new houses which had oil powered central heating (fired by electricity). We lived in a row of seven executive style houses and our next door neighbour had furnished their house with a wood burning stove so we (all 6 other households) went to their house for the daylight hours.
    A very well prepared colleague got the last laugh on those who mocked him, a few years back.

    ‘Leccy went out - big storm . First he knew was when the wife called him on the “funny phone” (satellite phone and she was very non-techical) - all the phones were dead, including mobile.

    His house was fine, because he had a generator that ran on fuel oil, and a UPS. Main power going out caused the UPS to fire up the generator.

    His house was the only one with heating and lights for a week.
    My parents used to live at the end of a long electricity line. Despite their age they weren’t a priority. In the 80s the snow took out the electricity line and the estimate was 10 days to get the power back.

    In order to prevent their food defrosting they balanced their freezer on a toboggan, chained it to a tractor and took it down to the nearest village to plug it into a friend’s garage…
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,498

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    One of the few banks Brown didn't nationalise or bail out
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,956

    ...

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    They fell in 49 days and the bond markets freaked out with some immediacy. If you want to add statistical evidence to the bond market point you can look for yourself.

    Oh, and Starmer didn't kill the Queen.
    Complete BS in other words.

    Starmer and Reeves' embrace of the 'crashed the economy' narrative on Truss has already begun to sink its fangs into their generous behinds, and that will not stop until what little is left of their economic reputations lies in smouldering ruins.
    It took less than a month for Truss's premiership to unravel, a month punctuated by the worst budget in parliamentary history.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,767
    HYUFD said:

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    One of the few banks Brown didn't nationalise or bail out
    That’s incorrect.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,627

    ...

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    They fell in 49 days and the bond markets freaked out with some immediacy. If you want to add statistical evidence to the bond market point you can look for yourself.

    Oh, and Starmer didn't kill the Queen.
    Complete BS in other words.

    Starmer and Reeves' embrace of the 'crashed the economy' narrative on Truss has already begun to sink its fangs into their generous behinds, and that will not stop until what little is left of their economic reputations lies in smouldering ruins.
    It took less than a month for Truss's premiership to unravel, a month punctuated by the worst budget in parliamentary history.
    And what ultimately did for her wasn't the mini-Budget, it was the chaos of the fracking vote.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,197

    ...

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    They fell in 49 days and the bond markets freaked out with some immediacy. If you want to add statistical evidence to the bond market point you can look for yourself.

    Oh, and Starmer didn't kill the Queen.
    Complete BS in other words.

    Starmer and Reeves' embrace of the 'crashed the economy' narrative on Truss has already begun to sink its fangs into their generous behinds, and that will not stop until what little is left of their economic reputations lies in smouldering ruins.
    It took less than a month for Truss's premiership to unravel, a month punctuated by the worst budget in parliamentary history.
    Three of you have said this now - that Truss's rapid defenestration constitutes some sort of proof that she 'crashed the economy', and that her mismanagement of it was worse than Keir Starmer's. A ten year old would be embarrassed at that answer. The resignation of Truss when it became clear MPs would not support her was a political act. It doesn't provide a shred of evidence of anything she did or didn't do to the economy.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,956
    edited 11:09AM

    ...

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    They fell in 49 days and the bond markets freaked out with some immediacy. If you want to add statistical evidence to the bond market point you can look for yourself.

    Oh, and Starmer didn't kill the Queen.
    Complete BS in other words.

    Starmer and Reeves' embrace of the 'crashed the economy' narrative on Truss has already begun to sink its fangs into their generous behinds, and that will not stop until what little is left of their economic reputations lies in smouldering ruins.
    It took less than a month for Truss's premiership to unravel, a month punctuated by the worst budget in parliamentary history.
    Three of you have said this now - that Truss's rapid defenestration constitutes some sort of proof that she 'crashed the economy', and that her mismanagement of it was worse than Keir Starmer's. A ten year old would be embarrassed at that answer. The resignation of Truss when it became clear MPs would not support her was a political act. It doesn't provide a shred of evidence of anything she did or didn't do to the economy.
    Yes, and I suspect many more on here would agree with me on this point at least.

    Has it ever occurred to you that you might be a lone voice on this matter not because everyone else is thinking like a 10 year old, but because you are in fact... wrong?

    No? Well keep dishing out the puerile insults if it makes you feel better.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,158

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    Someone who showed only a moderate interest in financial matters whilst in government. Has he shown any particular enthusiasm since?

    This may reflect the bank chairman role now being more of a political one. What does that say about where we are?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,374
    On the previous thread, it was implied by someone that Tesla Powerwalls have a tendency to catch fire. There have been just 7 recorded incidents globally in the ten years since their launch, from over a million installations. That is around 70x safer than the mean for all electrical products sold in the Uk.

    They’re awesome, they let you run your house all day at the overnight tariff, and give backup when your utility fails you.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,956
    moonshine said:

    On the previous thread, it was implied by someone that Tesla Powerwalls have a tendency to catch fire. There have been just 7 recorded incidents globally in the ten years since their launch, from over a million installations. That is around 70x safer than the mean for all electrical products sold in the Uk.

    They’re awesome, they let you run your house all day at the overnight tariff, and give backup when your utility fails you.

    Doesn't every home battery system do that?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,749

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Are you or anyone on your household on the priority services register? You should be given your recent accident, if you're not, contact your supplier and the network now.

    When the power went off for three days at our house because my mother is on the PSR, Northern PowerGrid came round with power banks/portable generators so our electricity could work.

    https://thepsr.co.uk/
    Not as far as I am aware..

    I'm supposed to be going back to work in a couple of days, so I'm not confident that I could get on it now
    You should still be eligible, you can take yourself off in a month or two.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,374

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    Someone who showed only a moderate interest in financial matters whilst in government. Has he shown any particular enthusiasm since?

    This may reflect the bank chairman role now being more of a political one. What does that say about where we are?
    Don’t understand the love for GO. He doubled the national debt while slashing capital spending, introduced the fiscally crippling triple lock, added unnecessary complexity and cliff edge idiosyncrasies to our already arcane taxation system, and he started the rot of taxing UK North Sea to death. He was also a shill for the Chinese communist party. Just one of the many utterly cack chancellors we have endured this century.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,956

    It does feel like the Labour government of 74-79 when after two years Wilson was replaced by Callaghan. Perhaps this is what Kemi Badenoch is banking on? Some would argue the real turning point in post war UK politics was the IMF moment in 1976.

    The BMA definitely seems out of control. The hard left is re-emerging as a proper menace. But will voters resort to the traditional conservative response anymore?

    I remember the 74-76 period pretty well and today doesn't feel much like that period to me. Far too many differences to draw parallels.

    For a start Starmer is not a patch on Wilson, and Badenoch is certainly no Thatcher.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,522

    It does feel like the Labour government of 74-79 when after two years Wilson was replaced by Callaghan. Perhaps this is what Kemi Badenoch is banking on? Some would argue the real turning point in post war UK politics was the IMF moment in 1976.

    The BMA definitely seems out of control. The hard left is re-emerging as a proper menace. But will voters resort to the traditional conservative response anymore?

    I can dimly remember the power cuts in ‘79

    Labour at that time was were governing, but the result was failure. You can argue about the policies, but they had them and were applying them.

    This time around, they are directionless. Apart from adding regulatory and cost burdens, they have no policies. Certainly none that they are trying to implement with any vigour.

    Instead, they appear to have elevated the courts to be the third, highest chamber of Parliament.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,377
    edited 11:18AM

    moonshine said:

    On the previous thread, it was implied by someone that Tesla Powerwalls have a tendency to catch fire. There have been just 7 recorded incidents globally in the ten years since their launch, from over a million installations. That is around 70x safer than the mean for all electrical products sold in the Uk.

    They’re awesome, they let you run your house all day at the overnight tariff, and give backup when your utility fails you.

    Doesn't every home battery system do that?
    Shows the power of the Tesla brand.

    We’ve been looking into battery storage to complement our solar array. Prices keep dropping and capacity increasing so the question is when to take the plunge.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,377

    ydoethur said:

    SSE now guessing 4pm for my power to be restored. I have very little faith in them; their initial guess was 4:30pm yesterday. They're still digging up the pavement outside my house

    Have they offered to put you up in a hotel?

    If not, that is outrageous.
    When I lived in Cradley, Herefordshire as a teenager in the late 1970s (and into the early 1980s) we could be without power for a fortnight without so much as a cheery "sorry" from the MEB. We lived in new houses which had oil powered central heating (fired by electricity). We lived in a row of seven executive style houses and our next door neighbour had furnished their house with a wood burning stove so we (all 6 other households) went to their house for the daylight hours.
    A very well prepared colleague got the last laugh on those who mocked him, a few years back.

    ‘Leccy went out - big storm . First he knew was when the wife called him on the “funny phone” (satellite phone and she was very non-techical) - all the phones were dead, including mobile.

    His house was fine, because he had a generator that ran on fuel oil, and a UPS. Main power going out caused the UPS to fire up the generator.

    His house was the only one with heating and lights for a week.
    My parents used to live at the end of a long electricity line. Despite their age they weren’t a priority. In the 80s the snow took out the electricity line and the estimate was 10 days to get the power back.

    In order to prevent their food defrosting they balanced their freezer on a toboggan, chained it to a tractor and took it down to the nearest village to plug it into a friend’s garage…
    Could they have just put it out in the snow?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,627
    moonshine said:

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    Someone who showed only a moderate interest in financial matters whilst in government. Has he shown any particular enthusiasm since?

    This may reflect the bank chairman role now being more of a political one. What does that say about where we are?
    Don’t understand the love for GO. He doubled the national debt while slashing capital spending, introduced the fiscally crippling triple lock, added unnecessary complexity and cliff edge idiosyncrasies to our already arcane taxation system, and he started the rot of taxing UK North Sea to death. He was also a shill for the Chinese communist party. Just one of the many utterly cack chancellors we have endured this century.
    He did popular things to Income tax and inheritance tax.

    And for a lot of people, that's all that matters.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,374

    moonshine said:

    On the previous thread, it was implied by someone that Tesla Powerwalls have a tendency to catch fire. There have been just 7 recorded incidents globally in the ten years since their launch, from over a million installations. That is around 70x safer than the mean for all electrical products sold in the Uk.

    They’re awesome, they let you run your house all day at the overnight tariff, and give backup when your utility fails you.

    Doesn't every home battery system do that?
    Yes to a greater or lesser extent, but the Tesla one has pretty much the most competitive cost/kwh of capacity, bearing in mind it’s also got the highest kw output capability.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,266

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    I've just bought an EV, ex demonstrator. I pay road tax, I will have to pay congestion charge from January, I am ulez compliant, but so are most cars less than 10 years old. Fuel duty I don't pay because I don't buy fuel, but I do pay 20% vat on my electrical energy as I don't have a home charger. I also don't pollute the atmosphere.

    I think I made the right decision.

    😐
    The electricity produced to fuel your car will pollute the atmosphere. You’re merely moving your pollution downstream.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,741
    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    45 is the number you're looking for.

    Days in office. Truss wasn't allowed to sink further than the cataclysm she unleashed.

    Liz Truss was Prime Minister from Tuesday, 6th September to Tuesday, 25 October, which is one lettuce, two monarchs, seven weeks or 49 days (or 50 days if you count both her first and last days as full days).

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,522
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    On the previous thread, it was implied by someone that Tesla Powerwalls have a tendency to catch fire. There have been just 7 recorded incidents globally in the ten years since their launch, from over a million installations. That is around 70x safer than the mean for all electrical products sold in the Uk.

    They’re awesome, they let you run your house all day at the overnight tariff, and give backup when your utility fails you.

    Doesn't every home battery system do that?
    Yes to a greater or lesser extent, but the Tesla one has pretty much the most competitive cost/kwh of capacity, bearing in mind it’s also got the highest kw output capability.
    IIRC they’ve, in California, setup so that you can sell power to the utilities from your PowerWall, at set prices.

    So when the demand price *from the utility* goes over a set value, your PowerWall sells power to them. If you want - there’s also a reserve of x% of the PowerWall you can reserve, that won’t be sold.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,498

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    Someone who showed only a moderate interest in financial matters whilst in government. Has he shown any particular enthusiasm since?

    This may reflect the bank chairman role now being more of a political one. What does that say about where we are?
    The chairman just sets long term strategy and leads the board, the CEO runs operations day to day
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,374
    .
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    So it looks like it's going to be:

    - Freeze on thresholds to 2030 (worth £10bn)
    - New tax on some forms of gambling (£3bn)
    - Restriction on NI relief on salary sacrifice for pensions contributions (£2bn)
    - New 'mansion tax' see my earlier post (£1bn)
    - Maybe small changes ie increases to CGT and dividend tax but no obvious sign of this happening ditto IHT changes
    - 'Efficiencies' and the usual 'tax evasion clampdown' (£several bn)

    And that's it

    I don't think the 2 child cap will be lifted at least not in full. Fuel duty won't go up!

    DYOR

    Just hope they don't bring in general tax on betting wins.
    I am really surprised governments haven't gone for at least those who make the bulk of their income from gambling. Lots of other governments have come up with stupid systems aimed at capping the amount of losses you can deduct etc, so that pro gambling end up paying income taxes e.g, Trumps big beautiful bill. The Greeks do it based on daily wins / losses.
    EV mile tax is another fiddle around tax rather than actually govern.

    Also reductions in hidden tax in energy bills in order to subsides heat pumps is another area for Treasury back slapping enjoyment on the day.
    Going after EVs when you are also trying to get everybody into EVs by 2035....remember they added luxury car tax to EVs last time as well and congestion charge is getting added in Lodnon. £40k doesn't get you much car these days, a cheap Chinese EV. joined up thinking.
    I'm not sure on that. If it keeps a bit of downward pressure on price and size, then so much the better.

    Looking at my make - Skodas - all the ranges except the biggest electric SUV start at under 40k, and there are plenty between 20k and 30k, and hatchbacks down to £15k. That's all before discounts.

    (They have a problem with the names, and the Electric models are on the whole physically huge. The models include Kamiq, Karoq, Kodiaq, Elroq, and Enyaq; someone put the ghost of Telly Savalas in the bloody computer.)
    Except it hasnt. Luxury car tax came in 2017, average new car price is £50k now. Last few years up dramatically for a number of reasons. The UK favourite ICE car the Qashqai is now £40k if you spec it up a bit. And with Trump tariffs etc there is no downward pressure, just the Chinese selling at cost.
    To me the average seems to be £40k or so, not £50k.
    No, we did this the other day. The official figures are now that the average new car is £50k. I posted links.

    So your argument seems to be you will drive a BYD or EV Skoda and be happy.

    The whole idea was supposed to be EVs cost a bit more, but a) the government will provide a really good subsidsy so they are on par if not cheaper than an ICE vehicle, so you don't need to worry about base cost (remember most people buy on finance), no luxury car tax, no road tax and also no horrid congestion charges etc.

    Now, even some Skoda EVs (which are ok cars but nobody would describe as luxury), but certainly the average car could cost you £2.5k in luxury car tax, plus if true another £300-400 in this PPM (which will of course only go up in cost over the years), plus you have to pay congestion charge.

    Those are nudges all in the wrong direction if your policy is to get eveybody in an EV by 2035. Most people who foot the upfront cost of the car on finance will more than likely just go fuck it, cost me same in luxury car tax, same in road tax, same in congestion car, might as well just get an ICE car that is cheaper upfront.
    This purported EV tax. Assuming it comes in at all, and then in the form proposed by the Daily Reformgraph.

    3p a mile in tax is less than the 6.7p a mile the average petrol car pays. And if you mostly charge at home you're paying 5% VAT not 20% VAT, so that's another saving.

    Road pricing is inevitable. Though knowing this government they will announce that they are going to raise £3bn by trialling it with a 5p a mile tax on Hydrogen cars.
    It might be less than ICE car tax, but its another nudge not to....people won't do the maths, they will be just like WTF, so I have to pay another tax on my EV. As I say, on top of all the other taxes / reduced subsidies that have been enacted. And that's if you can charge from home etc etc etc.

    Avoiding £2.5k in luxury car tax is a pretty good nudge in the EV direction. But that is gone unless you want to drive a shit box EV from China (China make some very good EVs, low end BYDs aren't them).

    Youi are all in on EVs, nothing wrong with that. I am just pointing out from the general public perspective, getting a subsidy on an EV, no luxury car tax, no road tax, no congestion charge, ohhh that's interesting. Or yeah it costs more up front, yeah you have to pay luxury car tax, and PPM road tax and congestion charge. Ohhhh come on Maureen lets look at those ICE powered Toyotas. Not let me get the Excel spreadsheet out and work this out to the penny.
    I've just bought an EV, ex demonstrator. I pay road tax, I will have to pay congestion charge from January, I am ulez compliant, but so are most cars less than 10 years old. Fuel duty I don't pay because I don't buy fuel, but I do pay 20% vat on my electrical energy as I don't have a home charger. I also don't pollute the atmosphere.

    I think I made the right decision.

    😐
    The electricity produced to fuel your car will pollute the atmosphere. You’re merely moving your pollution downstream.
    While the power produced by the grid does partially offset the pollutant / co2 savings, ev’s are still well in the green compared with gasoline/diesel. Also pollutants on urban streets are more damaging to human health that hose created in ore remote power stations
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,498

    HYUFD said:

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    One of the few banks Brown didn't nationalise or bail out
    That’s incorrect.
    It is correct, only Barclays of the UK banks in 2008 also got no significant bail out but largely as it managed to get a large investment from the Middle East
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,880
    HYUFD said:

    I would like to retract all my previous criticisms of HSBC.

    I now would be proud to work for HSBC and will be moving my main bank account to HSBC.

    On a totally unrelated note.

    BREAKING: George Osborne, the former chancellor, has emerged as a shock contender to become the next chairman of HSBC Holdings, one of the world's top banking jobs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/former-chancellor-osborne-is-shock-contender-to-head-hsbc-13470375

    Someone who showed only a moderate interest in financial matters whilst in government. Has he shown any particular enthusiasm since?

    This may reflect the bank chairman role now being more of a political one. What does that say about where we are?
    The chairman just sets long term strategy and leads the board, the CEO runs operations day to day
    Presumably he's also expecting to be the DG of BBC at the same time? Maybe edit a couple of newspapers as well?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,956
    edited 11:31AM

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    Although my depression continues to fog my brain, I am cheered by the grotesque chaos of a Labour government, a LABOUR government hiring special advisors to scuttle round the Commons handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.

    The Budget is sunk and there's still a week and a half before they unveil it. McSweeney will go, Reeves surely must go, I struggle to see how Starmer doesn't go.

    The LabCon in full effect. Labour are the Tories, Labour are the Tories, naah naah naah naah etc

    Marvellous

    Good morning

    I understand your cynicism, but for me there is a real fear that the damage Starmer and Reeves are inflicting on our county is far worse than Truss/ Kwarteng as they were booted out after a few weeks, whereas this pair together with the idiotic behaviour of their back benches refusing cutting spending is taking us into a huge economic crisis

    The answer is not Reform or the Greens, but a centrist government that is needed is as far away as ever

    Despair is very real
    Rose-tinted memory. Starmer's Labour have been thoroughly inept but not a patch on the wilful self-destruct of Truss.
    Do you have any stats to illustrate that?
    45 is the number you're looking for.

    Days in office. Truss wasn't allowed to sink further than the cataclysm she unleashed.

    Liz Truss was Prime Minister from Tuesday, 6th September to Tuesday, 25 October, which is one lettuce, two monarchs, seven weeks or 49 days (or 50 days if you count both her first and last days as full days).

    Yeah but her premiership was mortally wounded on day 18 (and for 10 of those 18 days government business was suspended during the national mourning period for the late Queen.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,621
    Congratulations to the Telegraph on their 10,000th budget prediction scoop since April 6th.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/11/14/reeves-plots-new-tax-on-middle-class-homeowners/
  • England must be worth backing for 1st Test now..🧐😏

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/nov/15/ashes-england-cricket-mark-wood-injury
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