Why blaming Brexit might help Labour (in the short term) – politicalbetting.com

System · November 10

Why blaming Brexit might help Labour (in the short term) – politicalbetting.com

Chancellor says Brexit deal caused long-term damage to economyShe quoted the Office for Budget Responsibility's calculation of a 4% long-term hit relative to remaining in the EUhttps://t.co/J32bkljstM

Read the full story here

IanB2 · November 10

First! Unlike Brexit

Nigelb · November 10

I doubt it will help Labour much, even though it's largely true.

rcs1000 · November 10

rottenborough said:

Mexicanpete said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:
Newsom's response to the Democratic senators folding.

"Pathetic."
https://x.com/GavinNewsom/status/1987703732600184837
Newsom is a malignant narcissist.

The Dems really need to be looking at other candidates.
Newsom is right though. Schumer folded and for not a jot. No concessions on healthcare, the Dems might as well not have bothered. A quick vote in Congress then MAGA Mike shuts down Congress again before any Epstein vote. The Dems have been played by the WH.

And why don't you like Newsom? Yes he's financed by Getty money but that is a hell of a lot less troublesome than Putin money.

I doubt he will survive until 2028. He looks way stronger than anyone else so I expect MAGA Mafia will put a target on his back.
I don't understand why trying to help GOP out of a massive hole of their own digging over healthcare for their poor, rural voters in time for 2026 is a Dem priority myself.

Maybe i am missing something?

Indeed: millions of Americans are going to see their healthcare costs double in the next year. They're not going to be happy.

numbertwelve · November 10

Nigelb said:
I doubt it will help Labour much, even though it's largely true.

Pretty much where my thoughts are.

They’ve messed up their messaging. If they’d have been shouting this louder from the word go then - maybe? - they might get a bit more of a hearing on it. As it is they are curiously coming out with all these excuses 18 months in, 18 months where I think it’s fair to say they’ve not been seen to excel at governing.

BartholomewRoberts · November 10

It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.

rcs1000 · November 10

rcs1000 said:

rottenborough said:

Mexicanpete said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:
Newsom's response to the Democratic senators folding.

"Pathetic."
https://x.com/GavinNewsom/status/1987703732600184837
Newsom is a malignant narcissist.

The Dems really need to be looking at other candidates.
Newsom is right though. Schumer folded and for not a jot. No concessions on healthcare, the Dems might as well not have bothered. A quick vote in Congress then MAGA Mike shuts down Congress again before any Epstein vote. The Dems have been played by the WH.

And why don't you like Newsom? Yes he's financed by Getty money but that is a hell of a lot less troublesome than Putin money.

I doubt he will survive until 2028. He looks way stronger than anyone else so I expect MAGA Mafia will put a target on his back.
I don't understand why trying to help GOP out of a massive hole of their own digging over healthcare for their poor, rural voters in time for 2026 is a Dem priority myself.

Maybe i am missing something?
Indeed: millions of Americans are going to see their healthcare costs double in the next year. They're not going to be happy.

Around 22 to 24 million people will see their health care costs rise by $1,000 due to the removal of the Obamacare subsidies.

A substantial portion of these people will be Republican voters.

Scott_xP · November 10

@JakeSherman

NEWS -- SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON plans to swear in Rep.-elect ADELITA GRIJALVA before the government funding vote.

This will not change the vote count on the funding bill. But it will put the EPSTEIN discharge petition over the 218-signature threshold.

OldKingCole · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.

I wouldn't call 31% a 'huge' majority. Indeed, only in today's electoral world could it be described as 'a majority'.

I am becoming ever more hopeful that I will see Britain returning to membership during my lifetime.

DavidL · November 10

I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.

algarkirk · November 10

Governments are allowed to blame foreign wars and weather, but you can't, once 16 months into government, blame something which you as the government have the unique power to amend, negotiate, legislate about, get around, make deals, seek the Norway option, seek the Swiss option, seek to rejoin, invade Poland, hold referendums and so on.

Roger · November 10

They haven't got much choice. Some very smart people have convinced the country that Brexit is costing the UK big time and now the only non believers are those who voted Brexit and are too embarrassed to admit they made a gigantic mistake

SandyRentool · November 10

algarkirk said:
Governments are allowed to blame foreign wars and weather, but you can't, once 16 months into government, blame something which you as the government have the unique power to amend, negotiate, legislate about, get around, make deals, seek the Norway option, seek the Swiss option, seek to rejoin, invade Poland, hold referendums and so on.

I agree. We can justifiably sat that the Tory version of Brexit was a bag of shite, but it is time for Labour to turn this into a good Brexit - that's what I voted for.

(Remainers, please don't bother saying that there is no such thing as a good Brexit.)

Northern_Al · November 10

I think the most interesting, and surprising, bit of the data in the header is the impact of Brexit on "yourself personally", with only around 8% recording a positive impact and 45% a negative impact, and a smaller number of 'don't knows' than other categories. The rest of the questions will be fairly abstract to many respondents, but this one is obviously just a personal feeling. Which is why I find the high proportion of negatives a bit surprising.

OnlyLivingBoy · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.

The UK used to grow faster than the EU average both in aggregate GDP and in per capita terms, and since Brexit has grown slower than the EU average. How much of that one attributes to Brexit will always be up for debate: we will only ever have estimates. However, looking at the very real barriers to trade, investment and hiring that Brexit has created in sectors like manufacturing, food and financial services it seems highly plausible that Brexit has done real damage to our economy. Of courseyou are welcome to say that the sovereignty benefits outweigh those economic costs. But I don't think voters are buying that. Brexit is crap and voters know it.

BartholomewRoberts · November 10

OldKingCole said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
I wouldn't call 31% a 'huge' majority. Indeed, only in today's electoral world could it be described as 'a majority'.

I am becoming ever more hopeful that I will see Britain returning to membership during my lifetime.

31% positive versus 21% negative.

31/52 of those saying positive or negative = 60% which is a significant majority of those expressing an opinion.

Burgessian · November 10

OldKingCole said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
I wouldn't call 31% a 'huge' majority. Indeed, only in today's electoral world could it be described as 'a majority'.

I am becoming ever more hopeful that I will see Britain returning to membership during my lifetime.

My understanding is that any single member of the EU could veto UK membership.

That includes Viktor Orban, to name just one.

I cannot imagine a circumstance in which every single member of the EU would nod the UK through without seeking to extract some significant concessions.

Being a supplicant is uncomfortable. And I really don't think the great British public would wear the implied humiliation however it was dressed up.

I've seen the flags.

Roger · November 10

Nigelb said:
I doubt it will help Labour much, even though it's largely true.

It will if they go the whole way and announce that in partnership with the Lib Dems and Greens that they intend to begin negotiations on a cross party basis to correct a serious mistake sold to the public on a lie by the then Tory government to rejoin over the next two years.

SandyRentool · November 10

Northern_Al said:
I think the most interesting, and surprising, bit of the data in the header is the impact of Brexit on "yourself personally", with only around 8% recording a positive impact and 45% a negative impact, and a smaller number of 'don't knows' than other categories. The rest of the questions will be fairly abstract to many respondents, but this one is obviously just a personal feeling. Which is why I find the high proportion of negatives a bit surprising.

44% have had to queue at passport control. 1% have had to spend less time in their villa in Tuscany.

PoodleInASlipstream · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:
Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.

I belive this a a major contributor to the current unpopularity of Labour. No more EU to take the blame, they are accountable for every policy.

If we were still in the EU the government would not have to implement the OSA or ID cards and take the political hit for them, just wait for similar EU regulations to provide cover.

Removing the "sorry, the EU requires us to do this, we have no choice" excuse from British politics has been greatly beneficial to our democracy, if rather less so to the electoral prospects of the parties used to hiding behind it...

Carnyx · November 10

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.

Hm. I see your point with some of the same old stuff already being dug out of the rotting crypt. But your argument only holds if there is no voter consensus. If one develops, then the situation changes.

Northern_Al · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:

OldKingCole said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
I wouldn't call 31% a 'huge' majority. Indeed, only in today's electoral world could it be described as 'a majority'.

I am becoming ever more hopeful that I will see Britain returning to membership during my lifetime.
31% positive versus 21% negative.

31/52 of those saying positive or negative = 60% which is a significant majority of those expressing an opinion.

You can't do that. The 35% answering 'no impact' are expressing an opinion. It's only the 14% 'don't knows' who aren't. Talk about spin!

dixiedean · November 10

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.

What kind of demented idiots would have spent the previous 20 years doing so?
Oh yes. The ones leading the polls.

Carnyx · November 10

OldKingCole said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
I wouldn't call 31% a 'huge' majority. Indeed, only in today's electoral world could it be described as 'a majority'.

I am becoming ever more hopeful that I will see Britain returning to membership during my lifetime.

And claiming a 31% Brexiter majority is neither a sound interpretation of democracy whem more folk have positivelyt asserted it made no difference, not is it particularly useful when it is merely the very poor best out of a lot of criteria.

dixiedean · November 10

Brexit, PR and of course a new leader are three massive trump cards up the government holds to play before the next election.
Deploy them skilfully and things could look very different.

JohnLilburne · November 10

algarkirk said:
Governments are allowed to blame foreign wars and weather, but you can't, once 16 months into government, blame something which you as the government have the unique power to amend, negotiate, legislate about, get around, make deals, seek the Norway option, seek the Swiss option, seek to rejoin, invade Poland, hold referendums and so on.

Indeed. The obvious response is "well, what are you doing about it?"

Carnyx · November 10

Northern_Al said:
I think the most interesting, and surprising, bit of the data in the header is the impact of Brexit on "yourself personally", with only around 8% recording a positive impact and 45% a negative impact, and a smaller number of 'don't knows' than other categories. The rest of the questions will be fairly abstract to many respondents, but this one is obviously just a personal feeling. Which is why I find the high proportion of negatives a bit surprising.

Doesn't surprise me. It's made life objectively worse for a lot of people - family links (a huge worry for many), travel, business/jobs.

williamglenn · November 10

dixiedean said:
Brexit, PR and of course a new leader are three massive trump cards up the government holds to play before the next election.
Deploy them skilfully and things could look very different.

The first two could only really be played in the way that Cameron did in the 2010-2015 parliament by promising a referendum if they win next time.

Nigelb · November 10

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.

Move on to .. what, exactly ?

"I get that" you find it "psychologically difficult" to accept that a large majority of the UK electorate judge Brexit to have been a failure.
But railing against those you disagree with, absent any positive suggestions, is just railing.

DavidL · November 10

Carnyx said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Hm. I see your point with some of the same old stuff already being dug out of the rotting crypt. But your argument only holds if there is no voter consensus. If one develops, then the situation changes.

Even if there is a majority for rejoining (and that may well change when we see what is on offer) there will not be a consensus. Far too many people are too invested in this. It will renew our divisions and it is not worth it. I can assure you I would have felt the same had the vote gone the other way.

Here are the latest figures from the Parliamentary library: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/#:~:text=In Q2 2025, UK GDP grew by 0.3%,data explorer, Quarterly real GDP growth of G7

Where is this underperformance? It simply doesn't exist and that is despite having staggeringly incompetent governments of both stripes in the relevant years who have had a much greater impact on our economic performance. What has more impact on our economic performance, Reeves' never ending tax raising threats and uncertainty or slightly different trading terms? No one rational has to even think about the answer.

Big_G_NorthWales · November 10

Roger said:
They haven't got much choice. Some very smart people have convinced the country that Brexit is costing the UK big time and now the only non believers are those who voted Brexit and are too embarrassed to admit they made a gigantic mistake

I voted remain and now we have had a democratic vote and left, I accept the decision and it is upto our governments to make it work

Re-joining would be a distraction from our problems even if the EU wanted to open discussions, which they don't, not least with the prospect of a Reform government

It's time to move on

Nigelb · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.

And interesting to not that a large majority apparently judge that we've made an absolute mess of having "control of our laws", whatever that means.

The "very raison d'etre" of Brexit did not, as I recall, include worsening the cost of living; the economy; businesses; public finance; trade... or even immigration.

Big_G_NorthWales · November 10

Roger said:

Nigelb said:
I doubt it will help Labour much, even though it's largely true.
It will if they go the whole way and announce that in partnership with the Lib Dems and Greens that they intend to begin negotiations on a cross party basis to correct a serious mistake sold to the public on a lie by the then Tory government to rejoin over the next two years.

In your dreams

Phil · November 10

Can’t see rejoin on the cards, but could well imagine a future UK government just going “fuck it” and taking us into the EEA, EFTA or some custom thing that’s remarkably like these two but somehow ineffably different enough to allow them to deny that they are “undoing Brexit”.

DavidL · November 10

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Move on to .. what, exactly ?

"I get that" you find it "psychologically difficult" to accept that a large majority of the UK electorate judge Brexit to have been a failure.
But railing against those you disagree with, absent any positive suggestions, is just railing.

We already have a close trading relationship with the EU. We should do our best to improve it and remove any barriers that exist. We should look to be a bit less bureaucratic in our administration and regulation. We should look for areas of cooperation addressing the strategic weaknesses that Europe needs to address given that America is no longer a reliable ally. Defence is an obvious area where we have lots to bring to table and common interests. There is lots to do and most of it will be positive with the EU. Absolutely no problem with that. No one sane would.

numbertwelve · November 10

williamglenn said:

dixiedean said:
Brexit, PR and of course a new leader are three massive trump cards up the government holds to play before the next election.
Deploy them skilfully and things could look very different.
The first two could only really be played in the way that Cameron did in the 2010-2015 parliament by promising a referendum if they win next time.

Agreed, though I don’t think it’s impossible they would go for these things if they felt it might make the difference in a GE.

I wouldn’t relish it: I don’t think the country needs to re-litigate Brexit again so soon. It would also provide a huge shot in the arm for Reform as they would able to turn the election into a de-facto rerun of the referendum - that likely wouldn’t end well for Labour seats in the East and North.

PJH · November 10

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.

Totally agree with you, from the other side of the argument. There is no point even contemplating it until the right have recognised the folly of Brexit and swung behind a campaign to rejoin. For that reason, despite being 25-30 years younger than OKC, I see no prospect of rejoining in my lifetime.

stodge · November 10

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.

Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".

Those who voted LEAVE are so desperate to preserve what they think they won the slightest hint of a rapprochement or a better working relationship with the EU becomes nigh on an act of treason - how dare they try to make leaving work with the EU?

It's long past rejoining or joining or whatever - it's about trying to come up with a mutually satisfactory economic relationship which allows all sides to prosper and doesn't drown either or both in regulation and process.

The irony is it was all about sovereignty and control - we were supposed to take control of our borders, weren't we? Remind me how that has progressed in the past few years.

turbotubbs · November 10

Phil said:
Can’t see rejoin on the cards, but could well imagine a future UK government just going “fuck it” and taking us into the EEA, EFTA or some custom thing that’s remarkably like these two but somehow ineffably different enough to allow them to deny that they are “undoing Brexit”.

Most who wanted Brexit wanted the free trade aspects without the political nonsense (ever closer union...). Being in a free trade area is fine for that.

PJH · November 10

SandyRentool said:

algarkirk said:
Governments are allowed to blame foreign wars and weather, but you can't, once 16 months into government, blame something which you as the government have the unique power to amend, negotiate, legislate about, get around, make deals, seek the Norway option, seek the Swiss option, seek to rejoin, invade Poland, hold referendums and so on.
I agree. We can justifiably sat that the Tory version of Brexit was a bag of shite, but it is time for Labour to turn this into a good Brexit - that's what I voted for.

(Remainers, please don't bother saying that there is no such thing as a good Brexit.)

"There is no such thing as a good Brexit"

- but I agree with you that Brexit was implemented very badly (no thought went into the practicalities, really) and Labour's opportunity is to make a better job of it.

MarqueeMark · November 10

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.

Phil · November 10

turbotubbs said:

Phil said:
Can’t see rejoin on the cards, but could well imagine a future UK government just going “fuck it” and taking us into the EEA, EFTA or some custom thing that’s remarkably like these two but somehow ineffably different enough to allow them to deny that they are “undoing Brexit”.
Most who wanted Brexit wanted the free trade aspects without the political nonsense (ever closer union...). Being in a free trade area is fine for that.

As that subset of Brexiteers found out (to their chagrin) the EU does not permit free trade without signing up to EU rules & regulations. The amount of free trade you get is roughly in proportion to how far you are willing to sign up to EU regulations. If you want the fullest free trade package, you have to sign up to freedom of movement as well.

The temptation for any UK government to steadily move closer to EU rules & regulations and to open up to more & more freedom of movement over time is going to be ever present. Look at where Switzerland has ended up, by way of example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations

I suspect we’re likely to end up in a similar place, eventually.

kinabalu · November 10

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.

I agree more time must elapse before (if we ever do) revisit our decision to leave the EU. This doesn't mean the consequences of the decision shouldn't be recognised. The public finances (therefore the budget) are impacted by the productivity downgrade from the OBS and some of the downgrade is attributable to Brexit. Should this be left unspoken because it offends or irritates people who voted for it? I don't see why.

Mexicanpete · November 10

MarqueeMark said:

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.

It's done it's over. You won, suck it up.

But you were tucked up by some pro-Russian, anti-Ukraine bad guys.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002lpff

algarkirk · November 10

PJH said:

SandyRentool said:

algarkirk said:
Governments are allowed to blame foreign wars and weather, but you can't, once 16 months into government, blame something which you as the government have the unique power to amend, negotiate, legislate about, get around, make deals, seek the Norway option, seek the Swiss option, seek to rejoin, invade Poland, hold referendums and so on.
I agree. We can justifiably sat that the Tory version of Brexit was a bag of shite, but it is time for Labour to turn this into a good Brexit - that's what I voted for.

(Remainers, please don't bother saying that there is no such thing as a good Brexit.)
"There is no such thing as a good Brexit" - but I agree with you that Brexit was implemented very badly (no thought went into the practicalities, really) and Labour's opportunity is to make a better job of it.

I think the precise issue is this: It was a reasonable presumption that the government that went into a referendum on the issue of EU membership believed there was an intelligent, well worked, detailed plan for the implementation of either result, otherwise (a) they would have not held it and (b) would have told us in the starkest possible terms that no sensible plan was possible.

But following this, and the now obvious fact that Labour in 2024 had no overall detailed plan for 2024-2029 and after, trust is at an all time low.

It is reasonable to presume there is no plan as a general political principle.

I hesitate to ask, but...Have Reform got a plan? And which is more terrifying - the thought that they have a plan, or the thought that they have not?

BartholomewRoberts · November 10

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
The UK used to grow faster than the EU average both in aggregate GDP and in per capita terms, and since Brexit has grown slower than the EU average. How much of that one attributes to Brexit will always be up for debate: we will only ever have estimates. However, looking at the very real barriers to trade, investment and hiring that Brexit has created in sectors like manufacturing, food and financial services it seems highly plausible that Brexit has done real damage to our economy. Of courseyou are welcome to say that the sovereignty benefits outweigh those economic costs. But I don't think voters are buying that. Brexit is crap and voters know it.

There is simply no evidence to substantiate that.

Pick any reasonable window, not utterly distorted by the wild swings in data in 2016 (caused by huge currency fluctuations) and it is quite clear that the UK has grown at least as well as competitor European nations. There is no Brexit deficit.

From 2019-2023 (so before Covid impacted data to most recent accurate data) the UK has grown by a miserly 2.2% while Germany has grown by a much more miserly 0.3%

Doesn't really suit the anti-Brexit narrative now, does it?

AnneJGP · November 10

So financing the unable-to-go-to-work masses during covid lockdowns had no tangible effect on the country's economy? Yeah, right.

BartholomewRoberts · November 10

Nigelb said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
And interesting to not that a large majority apparently judge that we've made an absolute mess of having "control of our laws", whatever that means.

The "very raison d'etre" of Brexit did not, as I recall, include worsening the cost of living; the economy; businesses; public finance; trade... or even immigration.

That's the whole point of democracy, if our government makes a mess of things we can kick the buggers out.

How could we kick out the Eurocrats?

AnneJGP · November 10

OldKingCole said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
I wouldn't call 31% a 'huge' majority. Indeed, only in today's electoral world could it be described as 'a majority'.

I am becoming ever more hopeful that I will see Britain returning to membership during my lifetime.

If our economy is as bad as all that, we couldn't be a net contributor. Would they want us if they need to finance us?

Nigelb · November 10

DavidL said:

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Move on to .. what, exactly ?

"I get that" you find it "psychologically difficult" to accept that a large majority of the UK electorate judge Brexit to have been a failure.
But railing against those you disagree with, absent any positive suggestions, is just railing.
We already have a close trading relationship with the EU. We should do our best to improve it and remove any barriers that exist. We should look to be a bit less bureaucratic in our administration and regulation. We should look for areas of cooperation addressing the strategic weaknesses that Europe needs to address given that America is no longer a reliable ally. Defence is an obvious area where we have lots to bring to table and common interests. There is lots to do and most of it will be positive with the EU. Absolutely no problem with that. No one sane would.

"Who on earth believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU"... ?

See how that works ?

Sean_F · November 10

I think we are past the point where Labour will get the benefit of any excuse they can contrive.

If say, Labour did promise rejoin, they would a boost from centre left voters, but in turn, Reform would get a boost from centre right voters.

Stark_Dawning · November 10

Yes, this could be a smart move by Rachel. We're getting to the stage now where everyone is disparaging Brexit - even Nigel has slammed it as a nightmare of red tape and business strangulation - so Rachel can position herself as the voice of the right-thinking person and perpetual good sense. I suppose the Leavers could counter by wheeling out Boris and Frosty to tell us what a splendid idea it all was, but I can't see the Great British public being too receptive. Probably best to blame silly old Dave and leave it at that.

Nigelb · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:

Nigelb said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
And interesting to not that a large majority apparently judge that we've made an absolute mess of having "control of our laws", whatever that means.

The "very raison d'etre" of Brexit did not, as I recall, include worsening the cost of living; the economy; businesses; public finance; trade... or even immigration.
That's the whole point of democracy, if our government makes a mess of things we can kick the buggers out.

We have already.

Taz · November 10

Licence fee is worth the money, let’s keep the Beeb, latest

‘ DJ Tim Westwood ‘carried out attacks at BBC studios' courtnewsuk.co.uk/?p=465213’

https://x.com/courtnewsuk/status/1987841366546612460?s=61

Nigelb · November 10

MarqueeMark said:

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.

The winners have been pretty quiet about what a great thing Brexit has been, of course ?

MarqueeMark · November 10

Scott_xP said:
@JakeSherman

NEWS -- SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON plans to swear in Rep.-elect ADELITA GRIJALVA before the government funding vote.

This will not change the vote count on the funding bill. But it will put the EPSTEIN discharge petition over the 218-signature threshold.

Assuming he holds to this - and he has no fig leaf left to avoid swearing her in - then we potentially have something even bigger than Watergate about to happen.

Republicans are going to have to ask themselves - "Do I side with Trump and all he has done - or do I break with him?" The chatter is 100+ in Congress will decide to vote for release of the Epstein files. There is murmering in DC that the stuff apparently shown by Epstein to Michael Wolff - topless under-age girls pointing to a stain on Trump's crotch - is tame compared to what else has been seen. If that proves to be true, Trump will be 25th'd almost immediately - nobody will stand by him.

This is already a thing. I find it almost impossible to believe that so many apparently devout Christian Republicans are holding the line - when it only needed one of the 200-odd to break ranks and be the 218th signatory. Their voters are going to want to know what they have been doing protecting a "pedo President".

Nigelb · November 10

Obama should sue...

Trump just posted a fake story claiming Obama was paid $2.5 million in “Obamacare royalties.”

The source? A satirical website whose disclaimer literally says:

“Everything on this website is fiction. If you believe it’s real, you should have your head examined.”

https://x.com/allenanalysis/status/1987580419345453149

Fairliered · November 10

Message to Rachel Reeves: An extra 5% on Income Tax levied on those that voted for Brexit, to pay for the untold damage they have done to the economy. If fact, and extra 10% on old people who have destroyed their children and grandchildren’s future.

Nigelb · November 10

MarqueeMark said:

Scott_xP said:
@JakeSherman

NEWS -- SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON plans to swear in Rep.-elect ADELITA GRIJALVA before the government funding vote.

This will not change the vote count on the funding bill. But it will put the EPSTEIN discharge petition over the 218-signature threshold.
Assuming he holds to this - and he has no fig leaf left to avoid swearing her in - then we potentially have something even bigger than Watergate about to happen.

Republicans are going to have to ask themselves - "Do I side with Trump and all he has done - or do I break with him?" The chatter is 100+ in Congress will decide to vote for release of the Epstein files. There is murmering in DC that the stuff apparently shown by Epstein to Michael Wolff - topless under-age girls pointing to a stain on Trump's crotch - is tame compared to what else has been seen. If that proves to be true, Trump will be 25th'd almost immediately - nobody will stand by him.

This is already a thing. I find it almost impossible to believe that so many apparently devout Christian Republicans are holding the line - when it only needed one of the 200-odd to break ranks and be the 218th signatory. Their voters are going to want to know what they have been doing protecting a "pedo President".

Ghislaine Maxwell, the Jeffrey Epstein confidante and convicted child sex trafficker, is being waited on “hand and foot” by the staff at her minimum security prison camp while she prepares a request that Donald Trump commute her sentence, according to whistleblower revelations made public Monday by House Democrats.
https://x.com/DilanianMSNBC/status/1987841056101003584

Pure coincidence, no doubt.

bondegezou · November 10

How many years is it since it was Green policy to leave the EU?

OnlyLivingBoy · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
The UK used to grow faster than the EU average both in aggregate GDP and in per capita terms, and since Brexit has grown slower than the EU average. How much of that one attributes to Brexit will always be up for debate: we will only ever have estimates. However, looking at the very real barriers to trade, investment and hiring that Brexit has created in sectors like manufacturing, food and financial services it seems highly plausible that Brexit has done real damage to our economy. Of courseyou are welcome to say that the sovereignty benefits outweigh those economic costs. But I don't think voters are buying that. Brexit is crap and voters know it.
There is simply no evidence to substantiate that.

Pick any reasonable window, not utterly distorted by the wild swings in data in 2016 (caused by huge currency fluctuations) and it is quite clear that the UK has grown at least as well as competitor European nations. There is no Brexit deficit.

From 2019-2023 (so before Covid impacted data to most recent accurate data) the UK has grown by a miserly 2.2% while Germany has grown by a much more miserly 0.3%

Doesn't really suit the anti-Brexit narrative now, does it?

Germany is the sick man of Europe faced by a devastating energy price shock. If you compare the UK to the EU as a whole we were clearly outperforming in the decades running up to Brexit and since then our per capita growth and outright growth has significantly lagged the EU average.

Mexicanpete · November 10

Sean_F said:
I think we are past the point where Labour will get the benefit of any excuse they can contrive.

If say, Labour did promise rejoin, they would a boost from centre left voters, but in turn, Reform would get a boost from centre right voters.

You are probably right but to this day Tory commentators trawl up the Liam Byrne letter, Brown selling the Gold, Healey's mistaken application to the IMF and Wilson's devaluation of the pound, yet we are not supposed to talk about Brexit and the PPE scandal. Mere trifles!

Mortimer · November 10

Fairliered said:
Message to Rachel Reeves: An extra 5% on Income Tax levied on those that voted for Brexit, to pay for the untold damage they have done to the economy. If fact, and extra 10% on old people who have destroyed their children and grandchildren’s future.

If we have similar on those who insisted we were locked down to avoid the sniffles, I'd accept that.

And a 5% supertax on all public sector workers who have gold plated pensions, too.

bondegezou · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
The UK used to grow faster than the EU average both in aggregate GDP and in per capita terms, and since Brexit has grown slower than the EU average. How much of that one attributes to Brexit will always be up for debate: we will only ever have estimates. However, looking at the very real barriers to trade, investment and hiring that Brexit has created in sectors like manufacturing, food and financial services it seems highly plausible that Brexit has done real damage to our economy. Of courseyou are welcome to say that the sovereignty benefits outweigh those economic costs. But I don't think voters are buying that. Brexit is crap and voters know it.
There is simply no evidence to substantiate that.

Pick any reasonable window, not utterly distorted by the wild swings in data in 2016 (caused by huge currency fluctuations) and it is quite clear that the UK has grown at least as well as competitor European nations. There is no Brexit deficit.

From 2019-2023 (so before Covid impacted data to most recent accurate data) the UK has grown by a miserly 2.2% while Germany has grown by a much more miserly 0.3%

Doesn't really suit the anti-Brexit narrative now, does it?

Whether Brexit was a good idea or not, your logic doesn't work. Comparing the UK post-Brexit to Germany or any other nation still in the EU is not comparing like with like. Germany and the UK had different growth rates when we were both in the EU. Your comparison can't prove that Brexiting was or wasn't good for the UK economy. You need to compare the UK that has Brexited with a counter-factual UK that didn't... which is, of course, impossible. Best you can do is to try to drill down, looking at multiple factors, to see if there's been a Brexit effect.

OnlyLivingBoy · November 10

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.

Ha ha, if there's one thing that voters on the left (the bulk of Remain voters) are used to it is losing, believe me. I very much get where you are coming from but surely the best thing to do when you realise you have made a mistake is to correct it. Why should my children suffer for a decision made when they were barely at primary school?

algarkirk · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:

Nigelb said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
And interesting to not that a large majority apparently judge that we've made an absolute mess of having "control of our laws", whatever that means.

The "very raison d'etre" of Brexit did not, as I recall, include worsening the cost of living; the economy; businesses; public finance; trade... or even immigration.
That's the whole point of democracy, if our government makes a mess of things we can kick the buggers out.

How could we kick out the Eurocrats?

Indeed. We are about to come back to the really insoluble bit. The UK was an active part of an EU which, over time and with the UK's aid, became an organisation which when were in it millions wanted to be out; and when out of it millions want to be in.

The case for being in and the case for being out are both overwhelmingly strong, but in completely different areas of our lives.

(This oddly resembles traditional arguments for and against the existence of God - there being an overwhelmingly strong case for both conclusions. Hope I don't set a hare running.)

kinabalu · November 10

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:
I think we are past the point where Labour will get the benefit of any excuse they can contrive.

If say, Labour did promise rejoin, they would a boost from centre left voters, but in turn, Reform would get a boost from centre right voters.
You are probably right but to this day Tory commentators trawl up the Liam Byrne letter, Brown selling the Gold, Healey's mistaken application to the IMF and Wilson's devaluation of the pound, yet we are not supposed to talk about Brexit and the PPE scandal. Mere trifles!

Bit odd, isn't it. The Tories can "clean up Labour's mess" for years, Labour get about a fortnight after which it's all just "excuses".

Nigelb · November 10

One thing that Trump in the Oval Office has definitely achieved, is ending woke.

Mexicanpete · November 10

MarqueeMark said:

Scott_xP said:
@JakeSherman

NEWS -- SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON plans to swear in Rep.-elect ADELITA GRIJALVA before the government funding vote.

This will not change the vote count on the funding bill. But it will put the EPSTEIN discharge petition over the 218-signature threshold.
Assuming he holds to this - and he has no fig leaf left to avoid swearing her in - then we potentially have something even bigger than Watergate about to happen.

Republicans are going to have to ask themselves - "Do I side with Trump and all he has done - or do I break with him?" The chatter is 100+ in Congress will decide to vote for release of the Epstein files. There is murmering in DC that the stuff apparently shown by Epstein to Michael Wolff - topless under-age girls pointing to a stain on Trump's crotch - is tame compared to what else has been seen. If that proves to be true, Trump will be 25th'd almost immediately - nobody will stand by him.

This is already a thing. I find it almost impossible to believe that so many apparently devout Christian Republicans are holding the line - when it only needed one of the 200-odd to break ranks and be the 218th signatory. Their voters are going to want to know what they have been doing protecting a "pedo President".

You have an optimism I admire.

This sort of s***, however unpleasant, seldom sticks to the Orange f*****.

I hope you are right.

Fairliered · November 10

Mortimer said:

Fairliered said:
Message to Rachel Reeves: An extra 5% on Income Tax levied on those that voted for Brexit, to pay for the untold damage they have done to the economy. If fact, and extra 10% on old people who have destroyed their children and grandchildren’s future.
If we have similar on those who insisted we were locked down to avoid the sniffles, I'd accept that.

And a 5% supertax on all public sector workers who have gold plated pensions, too.

Increase the supertax to 100% of payoffs to those that have failed when running organisations when Lessons haven’t been Learned.

Eabhal · November 10

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
The UK used to grow faster than the EU average both in aggregate GDP and in per capita terms, and since Brexit has grown slower than the EU average. How much of that one attributes to Brexit will always be up for debate: we will only ever have estimates. However, looking at the very real barriers to trade, investment and hiring that Brexit has created in sectors like manufacturing, food and financial services it seems highly plausible that Brexit has done real damage to our economy. Of courseyou are welcome to say that the sovereignty benefits outweigh those economic costs. But I don't think voters are buying that. Brexit is crap and voters know it.
There is simply no evidence to substantiate that.

Pick any reasonable window, not utterly distorted by the wild swings in data in 2016 (caused by huge currency fluctuations) and it is quite clear that the UK has grown at least as well as competitor European nations. There is no Brexit deficit.

From 2019-2023 (so before Covid impacted data to most recent accurate data) the UK has grown by a miserly 2.2% while Germany has grown by a much more miserly 0.3%

Doesn't really suit the anti-Brexit narrative now, does it?
Germany is the sick man of Europe faced by a devastating energy price shock. If you compare the UK to the EU as a whole we were clearly outperforming in the decades running up to Brexit and since then our per capita growth and outright growth has significantly lagged the EU average.

It's impossible to prove either way because there are no scientific experiments in economics; too many other factors. Quoting that 2.2% figure is meaningless unless you can prove it wouldn't have been 4.4% had we stayed inside the EU - or indeed not 0% without the Boriswave.

I'm reasonably satisfied that the indicators that we have point to leaving the EU having a negative effect on the economy. Anecdotally, the small business in my extended family (specialised manufacturing) survived it but it caused a massive headache for those running it - long hours trying to maintain relationships across Europe, and developing new ones here in the UK. I can't think of any examples where things became easier.

OllyT · November 10

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:
They haven't got much choice. Some very smart people have convinced the country that Brexit is costing the UK big time and now the only non believers are those who voted Brexit and are too embarrassed to admit they made a gigantic mistake
I voted remain and now we have had a democratic vote and left, I accept the decision and it is upto our governments to make it work

Re-joining would be a distraction from our problems even if the EU wanted to open discussions, which they don't, not least with the prospect of a Reform government

It's time to move on

How can you magically "make it work" if you believe it was a disastrous decision in the first place?

The only way we will ever know is if Farage wins the election and has 5 years to show us how t works. The only problem is that by that stage he will have another dozen excuses for why it's a crock of sh*t, all of which will be someone else's fault.

Farage and Trump are 2 cheeks of the same arsse. It is always someone else's fault.

carnforth · November 10

SandyRentool said:

Northern_Al said:
I think the most interesting, and surprising, bit of the data in the header is the impact of Brexit on "yourself personally", with only around 8% recording a positive impact and 45% a negative impact, and a smaller number of 'don't knows' than other categories. The rest of the questions will be fairly abstract to many respondents, but this one is obviously just a personal feeling. Which is why I find the high proportion of negatives a bit surprising.
44% have had to queue at passport control. 1% have had to spend less time in their villa in Tuscany.

I entered Schengen yesterday and had my prints and photo taken at an e-gate. No queue. Still had a stamp afterward, but that goes away next year. Seemed pretty seamless. Cars at Dover might be a different matter, but we shall see.

stodge · November 10

MarqueeMark said:

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.

Well, I'm glad I made you laugh but you know that's not what I meant.

Any even slight hint of building a relationship with the EU and up pop the cheerleaders for LEAVE, the Mail and the Express, with the tired old headline "Brexit Betrayal". Even now, more than nine years ago, we cannot have a relationship with the EU without the B words being flashed across the newspaper headlines.

However, it's apparently only "the losers" who are complaining - I must come to your universe one day where up is down, white is black and the Conservatives won in 2024.

Phil · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
The UK used to grow faster than the EU average both in aggregate GDP and in per capita terms, and since Brexit has grown slower than the EU average. How much of that one attributes to Brexit will always be up for debate: we will only ever have estimates. However, looking at the very real barriers to trade, investment and hiring that Brexit has created in sectors like manufacturing, food and financial services it seems highly plausible that Brexit has done real damage to our economy. Of courseyou are welcome to say that the sovereignty benefits outweigh those economic costs. But I don't think voters are buying that. Brexit is crap and voters know it.
There is simply no evidence to substantiate that.

Pick any reasonable window, not utterly distorted by the wild swings in data in 2016 (caused by huge currency fluctuations) and it is quite clear that the UK has grown at least as well as competitor European nations. There is no Brexit deficit.

From 2019-2023 (so before Covid impacted data to most recent accurate data) the UK has grown by a miserly 2.2% while Germany has grown by a much more miserly 0.3%

Doesn't really suit the anti-Brexit narrative now, does it?

Free trade is supposed to benefit both parties to every trade, that’s kind of the point of free market liberalism.

So, by extension, any Brexit deficit would be expected to apply as much to our EU trade partners as it does to us. The fact that our competitor EU nations have grown about as much as we have is not evidence that Brexit has been cost free - there is growth that all parties could have enjoyed that has been denied to us as a consequence of the trade barriers erected by Brexit.

We can, of course, democratically decide that we don’t want that economic activity - that we value the ability to set our own rules & deny freedom of movement to EU citizens more highly. That is the choice we have currently settled upon, but it’s a choice we can revisit, if we so choose.

MarqueeMark · November 10

Mexicanpete said:

MarqueeMark said:

Scott_xP said:
@JakeSherman

NEWS -- SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON plans to swear in Rep.-elect ADELITA GRIJALVA before the government funding vote.

This will not change the vote count on the funding bill. But it will put the EPSTEIN discharge petition over the 218-signature threshold.
Assuming he holds to this - and he has no fig leaf left to avoid swearing her in - then we potentially have something even bigger than Watergate about to happen.

Republicans are going to have to ask themselves - "Do I side with Trump and all he has done - or do I break with him?" The chatter is 100+ in Congress will decide to vote for release of the Epstein files. There is murmering in DC that the stuff apparently shown by Epstein to Michael Wolff - topless under-age girls pointing to a stain on Trump's crotch - is tame compared to what else has been seen. If that proves to be true, Trump will be 25th'd almost immediately - nobody will stand by him.

This is already a thing. I find it almost impossible to believe that so many apparently devout Christian Republicans are holding the line - when it only needed one of the 200-odd to break ranks and be the 218th signatory. Their voters are going to want to know what they have been doing protecting a "pedo President".

You have an optimism I admire.

This sort of s***, however unpleasant, seldom sticks to the Orange f*****.

I hope you are right.

Trump will utterly dominate the news across the planet. No doubt that will keep him happy....

stodge · November 10

Fairliered said:

Mortimer said:

Fairliered said:
Message to Rachel Reeves: An extra 5% on Income Tax levied on those that voted for Brexit, to pay for the untold damage they have done to the economy. If fact, and extra 10% on old people who have destroyed their children and grandchildren’s future.
If we have similar on those who insisted we were locked down to avoid the sniffles, I'd accept that.

And a 5% supertax on all public sector workers who have gold plated pensions, too.
Increase the supertax to 100% of payoffs to those that have failed when running organisations when Lessons haven’t been Learned.

Oh dear, another assault on the poor old public sector workers and their pensions from the usual suspects.

I'm sure you know very few public sector workers have "gold plated pensions" (whatever that perjorative actually means). The "blue light" pension is different from the civil service pension which is different from local Government pensions which are in turn different from teachers' pensions.

Malmesbury · November 10

Fairliered said:

Mortimer said:

Fairliered said:
Message to Rachel Reeves: An extra 5% on Income Tax levied on those that voted for Brexit, to pay for the untold damage they have done to the economy. If fact, and extra 10% on old people who have destroyed their children and grandchildren’s future.
If we have similar on those who insisted we were locked down to avoid the sniffles, I'd accept that.

And a 5% supertax on all public sector workers who have gold plated pensions, too.
Increase the supertax to 100% of payoffs to those that have failed when running organisations when Lessons haven’t been Learned.

132,000%

#CyclefreeIsAlwaysRight

Flatlander · November 10

stodge said:

MarqueeMark said:

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.
Well, I'm glad I made you laugh but you know that's not what I meant.

Any even slight hint of building a relationship with the EU and up pop the cheerleaders for LEAVE, the Mail and the Express, with the tired old headline "Brexit Betrayal". Even now, more than nine years ago, we cannot have a relationship with the EU without the B words being flashed across the newspaper headlines.

However, it's apparently only "the losers" who are complaining - I must come to your universe one day where up is down, white is black and the Conservatives won in 2024.

The Mail and the Express don't speak for anyone other than the Mail and the Express.

Most leavers wanted (and still want) a relationship with the EU, just not the one we had.

Cookie · November 10

stodge said:

Fairliered said:

Mortimer said:

Fairliered said:
Message to Rachel Reeves: An extra 5% on Income Tax levied on those that voted for Brexit, to pay for the untold damage they have done to the economy. If fact, and extra 10% on old people who have destroyed their children and grandchildren’s future.
If we have similar on those who insisted we were locked down to avoid the sniffles, I'd accept that.

And a 5% supertax on all public sector workers who have gold plated pensions, too.
Increase the supertax to 100% of payoffs to those that have failed when running organisations when Lessons haven’t been Learned.
Oh dear, another assault on the poor old public sector workers and their pensions from the usual suspects.

I'm sure you know very few public sector workers have "gold plated pensions" (whatever that perjorative actually means). The "blue light" pension is different from the civil service pension which is different from local Government pensions which are in turn different from teachers' pensions.

But - and I speak as a member of such a scheme - almost all of those are miles better than those available in the private sector.

tlg86 · November 10

carnforth said:

SandyRentool said:

Northern_Al said:
I think the most interesting, and surprising, bit of the data in the header is the impact of Brexit on "yourself personally", with only around 8% recording a positive impact and 45% a negative impact, and a smaller number of 'don't knows' than other categories. The rest of the questions will be fairly abstract to many respondents, but this one is obviously just a personal feeling. Which is why I find the high proportion of negatives a bit surprising.
44% have had to queue at passport control. 1% have had to spend less time in their villa in Tuscany.
I entered Schengen yesterday and had my prints and photo taken at an e-gate. No queue. Still had a stamp afterward, but that goes away next year. Seemed pretty seamless. Cars at Dover might be a different matter, but we shall see.

It was a bit of a farce in Prague last week. Took 90 mins to clear passport. What caused the trouble was that they were recording details of where people were staying and what flights they were booked out on. They were recording this with pen and paper!

Next European away day is Brugge by Eurostar, so I'll be at St Pancras extra early for that.

OnlyLivingBoy · November 10

Eabhal said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
The UK used to grow faster than the EU average both in aggregate GDP and in per capita terms, and since Brexit has grown slower than the EU average. How much of that one attributes to Brexit will always be up for debate: we will only ever have estimates. However, looking at the very real barriers to trade, investment and hiring that Brexit has created in sectors like manufacturing, food and financial services it seems highly plausible that Brexit has done real damage to our economy. Of courseyou are welcome to say that the sovereignty benefits outweigh those economic costs. But I don't think voters are buying that. Brexit is crap and voters know it.
There is simply no evidence to substantiate that.

Pick any reasonable window, not utterly distorted by the wild swings in data in 2016 (caused by huge currency fluctuations) and it is quite clear that the UK has grown at least as well as competitor European nations. There is no Brexit deficit.

From 2019-2023 (so before Covid impacted data to most recent accurate data) the UK has grown by a miserly 2.2% while Germany has grown by a much more miserly 0.3%

Doesn't really suit the anti-Brexit narrative now, does it?
Germany is the sick man of Europe faced by a devastating energy price shock. If you compare the UK to the EU as a whole we were clearly outperforming in the decades running up to Brexit and since then our per capita growth and outright growth has significantly lagged the EU average.
It's impossible to prove either way because there are no scientific experiments in economics; too many other factors. Quoting that 2.2% figure is meaningless unless you can prove it wouldn't have been 4.4% had we stayed inside the EU - or indeed not 0% without the Boriswave.

I'm reasonably satisfied that the indicators that we have point to leaving the EU having a negative effect on the economy. Anecdotally, the small business in my extended family (specialised manufacturing) survived it but it caused a massive headache for those running it - long hours trying to maintain relationships across Europe, and developing new ones here in the UK. I can't think of any examples where things became easier.

Exactly. Impossible to prove because as you say economics is not an experimental science. However the bulk of evidence at the micro and macro level as well as economic theory and common sense suggests a negative economic effect. In my own field (financial services) the negative effect has been very clear.

stodge · November 10

Flatlander said:

stodge said:

MarqueeMark said:

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.
Well, I'm glad I made you laugh but you know that's not what I meant.

Any even slight hint of building a relationship with the EU and up pop the cheerleaders for LEAVE, the Mail and the Express, with the tired old headline "Brexit Betrayal". Even now, more than nine years ago, we cannot have a relationship with the EU without the B words being flashed across the newspaper headlines.

However, it's apparently only "the losers" who are complaining - I must come to your universe one day where up is down, white is black and the Conservatives won in 2024.
The Mail and the Express don't speak for anyone other than the Mail and the Express.

Most leavers wanted (and still want) a relationship with the EU, just not the one we had.

As someone, who, along with 30% of LD voters at the time, voted LEAVE, I don't disagree.

We couldn't go on as we were with our half-hearted, rebate obsessed, opt-out fixated membership so it was better for both us and the EU we left but I never bought in to the absurdities of "Global Britain" perpetrated by Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and others

A trading and economic relationship analogous to what we had in the old EEC would be ideal but unfortunately it all got conflated with Freedom of Movement and the Euro, neither of which the British public are ever likely to accept.

BlancheLivermore · November 10

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:
I think we are past the point where Labour will get the benefit of any excuse they can contrive.

If say, Labour did promise rejoin, they would a boost from centre left voters, but in turn, Reform would get a boost from centre right voters.
You are probably right but to this day Tory commentators trawl up the Liam Byrne letter, Brown selling the Gold, Healey's mistaken application to the IMF and Wilson's devaluation of the pound, yet we are not supposed to talk about Brexit and the PPE scandal. Mere trifles!

How many years do you think you'll be fighting the 2019 Remembrance Day wreath scandal for?

I know someone's got to. Thank fuck it's you

Dopermean · November 10

Big hand for the BBC board, Prescott and Telegraph as license fee payers face a $1bn shakedown by DJT.

Along with the Tory DG's resignation that's quite a stunning act of self-harm.

Peter_the_Punter · November 10

BlancheLivermore said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:
I think we are past the point where Labour will get the benefit of any excuse they can contrive.

If say, Labour did promise rejoin, they would a boost from centre left voters, but in turn, Reform would get a boost from centre right voters.
You are probably right but to this day Tory commentators trawl up the Liam Byrne letter, Brown selling the Gold, Healey's mistaken application to the IMF and Wilson's devaluation of the pound, yet we are not supposed to talk about Brexit and the PPE scandal. Mere trifles!
How many years do you think you'll be fighting the 2019 Remembrance Day wreath scandal for?

I know someone's got to. Thank fuck it's you

Have we forgiven Michael Foot for his his cenotaph donkey jacket gaffe yet?

Alphabet_Soup · November 10

Flatlander said:

stodge said:

MarqueeMark said:

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.
Well, I'm glad I made you laugh but you know that's not what I meant.

Any even slight hint of building a relationship with the EU and up pop the cheerleaders for LEAVE, the Mail and the Express, with the tired old headline "Brexit Betrayal". Even now, more than nine years ago, we cannot have a relationship with the EU without the B words being flashed across the newspaper headlines.

However, it's apparently only "the losers" who are complaining - I must come to your universe one day where up is down, white is black and the Conservatives won in 2024.
The Mail and the Express don't speak for anyone other than the Mail and the Express.

Most leavers wanted (and still want) a relationship with the EU, just not the one we had.

Britain will rejoin the EU ... (a) when we are desperate enough to need them and (b) when they are desperate enough to need us. In other words, it requires a tidal wave of desperation to engulf the entire continent and these off-shore islands all at the same time. Not a situation any sane person would relish.

Mexicanpete · November 10

Fuxake. Trump threatens the BBC with a billion dollar lawsuit.

The BBC self flagellation is fuckin' ludicrous. Badenoch and Farage fall behind Trump, Labour and the LibDems fall behind the BBC.

So the idiocy is now one of Trump didn't incite sedition, it was a BBC lie. They'll pay the f***** won't they?

carnforth · November 10

Moderately on topic I note that the EU is considering preventing this government's age-based ban on smoking applying to Northern Ireland.

Peter_the_Punter · November 10

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Eabhal said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.
The UK used to grow faster than the EU average both in aggregate GDP and in per capita terms, and since Brexit has grown slower than the EU average. How much of that one attributes to Brexit will always be up for debate: we will only ever have estimates. However, looking at the very real barriers to trade, investment and hiring that Brexit has created in sectors like manufacturing, food and financial services it seems highly plausible that Brexit has done real damage to our economy. Of courseyou are welcome to say that the sovereignty benefits outweigh those economic costs. But I don't think voters are buying that. Brexit is crap and voters know it.
There is simply no evidence to substantiate that.

Pick any reasonable window, not utterly distorted by the wild swings in data in 2016 (caused by huge currency fluctuations) and it is quite clear that the UK has grown at least as well as competitor European nations. There is no Brexit deficit.

From 2019-2023 (so before Covid impacted data to most recent accurate data) the UK has grown by a miserly 2.2% while Germany has grown by a much more miserly 0.3%

Doesn't really suit the anti-Brexit narrative now, does it?
Germany is the sick man of Europe faced by a devastating energy price shock. If you compare the UK to the EU as a whole we were clearly outperforming in the decades running up to Brexit and since then our per capita growth and outright growth has significantly lagged the EU average.
It's impossible to prove either way because there are no scientific experiments in economics; too many other factors. Quoting that 2.2% figure is meaningless unless you can prove it wouldn't have been 4.4% had we stayed inside the EU - or indeed not 0% without the Boriswave.

I'm reasonably satisfied that the indicators that we have point to leaving the EU having a negative effect on the economy. Anecdotally, the small business in my extended family (specialised manufacturing) survived it but it caused a massive headache for those running it - long hours trying to maintain relationships across Europe, and developing new ones here in the UK. I can't think of any examples where things became easier.
Exactly. Impossible to prove because as you say economics is not an experimental science. However the bulk of evidence at the micro and macro level as well as economic theory and common sense suggests a negative economic effect. In my own field (financial services) the negative effect has been very clear.

Impossible to prove, maybe, but just how smart do you have to be to figure that leaving the world's largest and most successful free trade association might have had some economic downsides.

isam · November 10

BartholomewRoberts said:
It is utter nonsense. The UK has grown as fast as EU nations both overall and per capita in the past 15 years with Brexit not even troubling the scorers.

Though interesting to note that a huge majority say that Brexit has been positive for controlling our own laws which of course was the very raison d'etre.

It's lowered EU migration... not so sure that is the benefit I thought it would be given that it's made other immigration soar.

What we need I suppose is a government that genuinely wants low migration, and at least Brexit has given us the ability to have one of those that won't have it's hands tied.

Dopermean · November 10

Peter_the_Punter said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:
I think we are past the point where Labour will get the benefit of any excuse they can contrive.

If say, Labour did promise rejoin, they would a boost from centre left voters, but in turn, Reform would get a boost from centre right voters.
You are probably right but to this day Tory commentators trawl up the Liam Byrne letter, Brown selling the Gold, Healey's mistaken application to the IMF and Wilson's devaluation of the pound, yet we are not supposed to talk about Brexit and the PPE scandal. Mere trifles!
How many years do you think you'll be fighting the 2019 Remembrance Day wreath scandal for?

I know someone's got to. Thank fuck it's you
Have we forgiven Michael Foot for his his cenotaph donkey jacket gaffe yet?

These days Jaeger would sue.

MarqueeMark · November 10

Kemi says there is a need for top to bottom Reform.

Oh, reform of the BBC.

Stuartinromford · November 10

Flatlander said:

stodge said:

MarqueeMark said:

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.
Well, I'm glad I made you laugh but you know that's not what I meant.

Any even slight hint of building a relationship with the EU and up pop the cheerleaders for LEAVE, the Mail and the Express, with the tired old headline "Brexit Betrayal". Even now, more than nine years ago, we cannot have a relationship with the EU without the B words being flashed across the newspaper headlines.

However, it's apparently only "the losers" who are complaining - I must come to your universe one day where up is down, white is black and the Conservatives won in 2024.
The Mail and the Express don't speak for anyone other than the Mail and the Express.

Most leavers wanted (and still want) a relationship with the EU, just not the one we had.

Everyone had things about the EU they didn't like. Everyone has things about the EU they don't like.

That's true of pretty much everything, but the unusual thing about the EU was the voted to leave. But then the attempt to find a degree of connection that everyone was happy with was really quite thin. And we don't like that, either.

And now we're stuck between not wanting to reopen the can of worms and the rubbishness of the status quo. The trouble is that demanding politicians make Brexit work is much like Pharaoh's demands that the Israelites make bricks without straw.

eek · November 10

stodge said:

Flatlander said:

stodge said:

MarqueeMark said:

stodge said:

DavidL said:
I really cannot fathom what sort of demented idiot would think that the solution to the next 10 years is to have the same obsession with membership of the EU as we have had in the last 10. Who wants to go through that all again? Who really believes that we would get an acceptable deal from the EU? Who on earth thinks that the uncertainty this would cause would be helpful? It is really ridiculous.

I know that those who lost the Brexit vote are not used to losing. I know that their views are far more important than the rest of us. I get that they find this psychologically difficult. But enough. Just enough. Move on and address our real problems rather than this displacement activity.
Come on, it's not those who "lost" who are doing all the complaining - it's the "winners".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hah!!

Not been a bleat out of the Referendum losers since the day of the vote. Nope. Utterly silent.
Well, I'm glad I made you laugh but you know that's not what I meant.

Any even slight hint of building a relationship with the EU and up pop the cheerleaders for LEAVE, the Mail and the Express, with the tired old headline "Brexit Betrayal". Even now, more than nine years ago, we cannot have a relationship with the EU without the B words being flashed across the newspaper headlines.

However, it's apparently only "the losers" who are complaining - I must come to your universe one day where up is down, white is black and the Conservatives won in 2024.
The Mail and the Express don't speak for anyone other than the Mail and the Express.

Most leavers wanted (and still want) a relationship with the EU, just not the one we had.
As someone, who, along with 30% of LD voters at the time, voted LEAVE, I don't disagree.

We couldn't go on as we were with our half-hearted, rebate obsessed, opt-out fixated membership so it was better for both us and the EU we left but I never bought in to the absurdities of "Global Britain" perpetrated by Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and others

A trading and economic relationship analogous to what we had in the old EEC would be ideal but unfortunately it all got conflated with Freedom of Movement and the Euro, neither of which the British public are ever likely to accept.

Take it you haven’t been to Europe recently - it took 90 minutes for me to get into Prague on Friday.

Got to say my 60 minute transfer in Schiphol next week would be fun in Mrs Eek couldn’t request assistance

Dopermean · November 10

Cookie said:

stodge said:

Fairliered said:

Mortimer said:

Fairliered said:
Message to Rachel Reeves: An extra 5% on Income Tax levied on those that voted for Brexit, to pay for the untold damage they have done to the economy. If fact, and extra 10% on old people who have destroyed their children and grandchildren’s future.
If we have similar on those who insisted we were locked down to avoid the sniffles, I'd accept that.

And a 5% supertax on all public sector workers who have gold plated pensions, too.
Increase the supertax to 100% of payoffs to those that have failed when running organisations when Lessons haven’t been Learned.
Oh dear, another assault on the poor old public sector workers and their pensions from the usual suspects.

I'm sure you know very few public sector workers have "gold plated pensions" (whatever that perjorative actually means). The "blue light" pension is different from the civil service pension which is different from local Government pensions which are in turn different from teachers' pensions.
But - and I speak as a member of such a scheme - almost all of those are miles better than those available in the private sector.

Speaking as someone who isn't, that was the remuneration package.
A race to the bottom because private sector workers can't negotiate decent Ts and Cs only helps miserly employers.

Roger · November 10

Who is to be the next DG? If they go with an ex politician I'd go for David Milliband or maybe David Gaulke or perhaps Nick Clegg. The worst choices would be Michael Gove or Charles Moore

More likely though is a producer from a rival station so without a BBC history. Channel 4 is a very well handled station. Or maybe a wild card like Nick Hytner.....

stodge · November 10

Cookie said:

stodge said:

Fairliered said:

Mortimer said:

Fairliered said:
Message to Rachel Reeves: An extra 5% on Income Tax levied on those that voted for Brexit, to pay for the untold damage they have done to the economy. If fact, and extra 10% on old people who have destroyed their children and grandchildren’s future.
If we have similar on those who insisted we were locked down to avoid the sniffles, I'd accept that.

And a 5% supertax on all public sector workers who have gold plated pensions, too.
Increase the supertax to 100% of payoffs to those that have failed when running organisations when Lessons haven’t been Learned.
Oh dear, another assault on the poor old public sector workers and their pensions from the usual suspects.

I'm sure you know very few public sector workers have "gold plated pensions" (whatever that perjorative actually means). The "blue light" pension is different from the civil service pension which is different from local Government pensions which are in turn different from teachers' pensions.
But - and I speak as a member of such a scheme - almost all of those are miles better than those available in the private sector.

It's part of recruitment and retention - my father spent the last 20 years of his career in the civil service because he knew the index-linked pension would keep him and my Mum going once he stopped work.

Could he have earned more in the private sector? Doubtless but that wasn't the point for him back then.

Of course, the public sector employee takes a deduction every month into the pension (well, they did and do for LPGS) but the key point was the Council also contributed and those earning more contributed more ensuring the pot for all could be funded.

There have been significant reforms in both 2008 and 2014 to LPGS such as the ending of the "85 year rule" and higher contributions for the same result.

Indeed, one of the by-products of these reforms and the one million local Government roles lost under Conservative-led Governments from 2011 was the LPGS fund returned to some form of stability having been in some trouble after the GFC.

Longevity of service or loyalty is rewarded - if you've worked in local Government for 40 years and then retire you will come out with a annual pension probably two thirds to three quarters of final salary but obviously those who weren't in it for so long don't get anything like that.

Big_G_NorthWales · November 10

Majority of the public want to keep the 2 child cap

https://x.com/YouGov/status/1987901680243937438?s=19

theProle · November 10

Nigelb said:
I doubt it will help Labour much, even though it's largely true.

Very interesting comment from the someone at the IEA (I think) on a podcast I was listening to this morning. The gist of it was:

The OBR decided ages ago Brexit would be a 4% hit. This was in their forecasts for several budgets, including last year's.

No-one is briefing that the OBR have changed this calculation, and the IEA wonk suggested that most of the available data suggests the actual outturn is if anything less than a 4% hit.

Reeves claiming that the mess she currently finds herself in is a result of Brexit is therefore utterly implausible, as her black hole has only opened up since the budget last year.

My comment: If Reeves wants a scapegoat for her current black hole, she needs something which has happened after her last budget. Unfortunately for her, that leaves her pretty thin on options, possibly because the true culprit is mainly her own stupidity in going on a massive tax and spend splurge in last year's budget.

Big_G_NorthWales · November 10

On the BBC

https://x.com/YouGov/status/1987927719271641095?s=19

Why blaming Brexit might help Labour (in the short term) – politicalbetting.com

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