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  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,459
    edited November 2
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while their is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    It’s not worth it at the cost of all else, which is the Miliband approach. You do that which is most economic and not that which is not. It’s rather extraordinary by the way to characterise Musk as a climate denialist and rather undermines your opinion on this matter.
    I didn't call Musk a denialist, did I? Miliband's approach is almost indistinguishable from the previous government.

    Anyway, the logical outcome from this kind of debate is we need to think about investing much more in adaptation. Flooding is the obvious one (particularly SE England).
    Dredge the rivers. Build more reservoirs to store the water, so we don't have winter floods and summer droughts every sodding year. Old school actual water management, as banned by the EU's absurd habitats regulations - the ones we no longer have to abide by. Next.
    Does dredging rivers not increase floods at the lower end? Hence measures such as increased forest to slow down percolation into said rivers? I thought that was a basic.

    It's the same reason we use Sustainable Drainage Systems in new developments.

    I'd add reduced water usage as an obvious strategy, We use 25% more than our most efficient European peers (which is usually taken as Denmark).
    (I see my last para is off subthread).

    As a further key strategy I'd add peatland restoration, where we are very much a leader.
    Indeed.

    I'm involved in a small peatland restoration project although lowland rather than the degraded upland bogs that are the main issue for flooding.

    There's been lots of good work in the Pennines but more is needed and there's still resistance on some estates.

    Our recent flooding problems are mostly due to urbanisation and extra flood defences upstream though

    The river itself is just a drainage channel long since diverted from its original course and can't be deepened without collapsing the flood banks. In any case it is tidal, so the base water level can't be lowered.

    I have never managed to work out where this dredging obsession comes from.
    We had an almighty red trousers-on-red trousers stooshie once because one landowner wanted another landowner to dredge his gravel beds (good for what remains of the salmon). Difficult to keep a straight face.
    Lol. Surely that would actually be illegal anyway?

    My experience is that the worst estates for land management are the ones that also have problems with dead raptors turning up on their premises.

    Funny that.

    The current bid to buy Rothbury Estate in Northumberland is an interesting one. I hope it succeeds.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,304
    Tres said:

    This Vance Kirk things gonna lead to some cracking conspiracy theories.

    And because of the people involved, eminently reasonable...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,788
    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while there is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    The curious thing is that Musk has previously backed, with his own money, brand and talent, the "innovation not hair shirt" approach. And with the improvements in solar and batteries, that has very largely worked. A very large percentage of the solution exists, and capitalism is delivering it. It's just a question of doing it.

    Yay capitalism.

    And now it seems that Musk is backing away from his triumph, just as it is happening. Why? Has he been driven mad by his own opinion machine?
    You should watch his commentary. He’s not backing away from anything, he thinks much of the US economy can and should be powered by solar / batteries with electric consumption. He just does not think climate change is the most pressing matter for human civilisation. Nor does Bill Gates any more of course.
    The correct answer is what Musk is doing, advancing the state of technology. Unfortunately the Chinese are doing the same.
    That's not unfortunate; we'd be screwed if they weren't.
    What is truly unfortunate is that we ceded domination of both battery and solar production to them by default.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,861
    Tres said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Just look at Greta. Completely forgotten about climate change and wrapped herself in a Palestinian flag.
    Don’t make stuff up. I just looked at her Instagram. The majority of recent posts are about Sudan, while there are others about Palestine and about climate change.
    Sudan? So she's found a new bandwagon to jump on.
    She can’t win with you, can she? If she doesn’t say anything about Sudan, you’d accuse her of being too obsessed with Palestine and ignoring Sudan. If she does say something about Sudan, you accuse her of jumping on a bandwagon.
    Look, she's a young girl with rich and connected parents, it's vitally important that she's taken down a peg or two.
    Ruddy sexism against a modern day Joan of Arc.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,621
    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    Talking about if Sydney Sweeney is hot or mid?
    My Twitter feed is inundated with pictures of her. 👍
    Mine too, horrible isn’t it?

    I think the general conclusion is that the actress is an attractive young lady.
    Busted. This means that the algorithm logged you lingering on the photo and zooming in on her nipples.
    You that like it’s a bad thing?

    (My instagram comprises reels of cute dogs)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,824
    edited November 2

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    I want to deport them because they're illegal immigrants, and they should be deported. This is not controversial, this is the law as written and how it has been written and settled for a very long term.
    It's like saying I want shop lifters prosecuted, I want drunk drivers banned.

    A whole lot of people seemed to have had a conversation and decided that those in breach of their immigration status should no longer be detained and then deported. But havent bothered to tell parliament about it.
    Quite how many undocumented migrants we have is unclear, as there are no official figures and by their vey nature undocumented migrants avoid contact with officialdom, but realistic estimates are around 800 000.

    https://fullfact.org/immigration/uk-illegal-migrants-reform/

    These are quite a mix. A high percentage are children, often with one parent legal, or spouses of legal residents. A lot are visa overstayers, or entered on a visa as tourist etc but are working. Then there are asylum seekers whose applications have been refused (worth noting that half of asylum appeals are successful, so a fair number of these will become legal).

    Yesterday we had a long header on the importance of implementing the law, and in this context it is worth stressing that it is not illegal to enter the country without documents to seek asylum, nor is it a legal requirement to seek asylum in the first safe country. There is a case to make it illegal, though that would involve leaving the international convention on asylum etc, but at present it is not.

    We do deport a lot of people, and many more leave voluntarily, often without the authorities noticing as we do not have exit checks to check for overstayers etc. Of the ones we do know about many are engaged in a process of legalising themselves (extending visas, applying for different forms of visas, asylum appeals etc). It is harder still to deport those that we do not know about.

    Exit checks at ports and airports might be a useful way of getting a better handle on the figures, and flagging up those who overstay, work illegally etc and later plan re-entry.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,861
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    What I don't understand is wht the ECML is shut down. Can't they shunt the train into a siding? Or what am I missing?

    Surely the train itself is the crime scene, and could be moved somewhere secure where BTP forensics team can look over it?

    Perhaps the incident continued onto the platform where the train stopped, and it makes sense to leave the train where it is, to make the investigation easier.
    They need to check the track for discarded evidence though.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while their is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    It’s not worth it at the cost of all else, which is the Miliband approach. You do that which is most economic and not that which is not. It’s rather extraordinary by the way to characterise Musk as a climate denialist and rather undermines your opinion on this matter.
    I didn't call Musk a denialist, did I? Miliband's approach is almost indistinguishable from the previous government.

    Anyway, the logical outcome from this kind of debate is we need to think about investing much more in adaptation. Flooding is the obvious one (particularly SE England).
    Dredge the rivers. Build more reservoirs to store the water, so we don't have winter floods and summer droughts every sodding year. Old school actual water management, as banned by the EU's absurd habitats regulations - the ones we no longer have to abide by. Next.
    Dredge the rivers is hilariously wrong. Just ridiculous. Happily we have experts working hard to find ways to reduce flooding and advising the government so we don't repeat the stupidity of the past.
    In some specific places - the man made ditches in Somerset a lack of mainatainance (I.e. dredging) was certainly an issue for widespread flooding of the levels. That’s a man made system not being maintained., and the levels reverting to being a flood system.
    Same around Abingdon. There were several streams, where you’d normally have a little rivulet running at the bottom of a great big, sandy channel. Which could take about 100x the water in a spate.

    They were man made (expanded), probably in medieval times. Full of life - tadpoles, small fish. Tons of butterflies.

    Then they got neglected. Not such that shopping trolleys are natural, but hey. Environment Agency said don’t touch…

    Anyway, when the big flood came, local flooding. Then they got cleared out. Back to the old state.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,788

    Oh my word.


    Conspiracy theorists will also have noted his recently repeated wish for his wife to convert from Hinduism.

    A wife switch before the presidential primaries ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,861
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Just look at Greta. Completely forgotten about climate change and wrapped herself in a Palestinian flag.
    Don’t make stuff up. I just looked at her Instagram. The majority of recent posts are about Sudan, while there are others about Palestine and about climate change.
    Sudan? So she's found a new bandwagon to jump on.
    She can’t win with you, can she? If she doesn’t say anything about Sudan, you’d accuse her of being too obsessed with Palestine and ignoring Sudan. If she does say something about Sudan, you accuse her of jumping on a bandwagon.
    She's supposed to be an "environmental campaigner".

    Neither Palestinian nor Sudan are part of that brief.

    What do you mean, “She's supposed to be an "environmental campaigner".”? She’s a private individual. She can do what she wants.
    She should learn from Boyan Slat, who by many orders is a more impressive individual and having a superior impact for environmentalism. He is less celebrated but has quietly and efficiently built a team that is on the verge of making a material dent in the problem of plastic pollution.
    Why? Can’t Slat do things his way and Thunberg do things her way?
    Greta’s claim to fame was being a kid who was rude to grownups. This got her, and thus her cause, attention. She is now just an adult who is rude to other adults and has no solutions. Which is instead harmful to her cause(s).
    I remember when she rocked up to parliament and Theresa May got empty chaired as she had affairs of state to deal with while other politicians fawned over her.

    Utterly pathetic.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    What I don't understand is wht the ECML is shut down. Can't they shunt the train into a siding? Or what am I missing?

    Surely the train itself is the crime scene, and could be moved somewhere secure where BTP forensics team can look over it?

    Perhaps the incident continued onto the platform where the train stopped, and it makes sense to leave the train where it is, to make the investigation easier.
    Alternatively a performative over-doing of the crime scene.

    That’s happened a few times before.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,225
    edited November 2

    I note yesterday on pb was all about trans. Today I arrive and it is now all about trains.

    What about trains that identify differently to their construction?

    Such as Class 769, which started out as 319 units…
    When I was boy I used to trainspot on Barnes railway station. I often saw 73085 Melisande. sadly it is no more.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,861
    edited November 2

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    It is not wrong to wonder why this violent thug was given asylum after one violent attack. Now up to 5, and not wrong to want him deported.

    A few here would see him as a victim of racism.

    https://x.com/bea_johanssen/status/1984574712266023361?s=61
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,557

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Just look at Greta. Completely forgotten about climate change and wrapped herself in a Palestinian flag.
    Don’t make stuff up. I just looked at her Instagram. The majority of recent posts are about Sudan, while there are others about Palestine and about climate change.
    Sudan? So she's found a new bandwagon to jump on.
    She can’t win with you, can she? If she doesn’t say anything about Sudan, you’d accuse her of being too obsessed with Palestine and ignoring Sudan. If she does say something about Sudan, you accuse her of jumping on a bandwagon.
    She's supposed to be an "environmental campaigner".

    Neither Palestinian nor Sudan are part of that brief.

    What do you mean, “She's supposed to be an "environmental campaigner".”? She’s a private individual. She can do what she wants.
    I think people are just surprised that having staged a school strike for years over the Climate to draw public attention to an issue she felt was absolutely critical to our survival - and massively sidelined - she's now, when it has yet again taken a back seat, and progress has stalled, deciding to focus most of her energy on Gaza.

    Yes, she can do what she likes. Yes, you can find the odd post on Instagram that still mentions the climate but it makes some question whether what really drives her has changed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,936
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,824
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Short wars are won by existing weapons, but longer wars are won by industrial production*. These don't have to be the best design. No one would claim the Sherman was a better tank than the Panther. Kursk was a major turning point in the war but the tank losses on either side were a rounding error in terms of production. The Germans lost several hundred tanks there but built 11 000 in 1943.

    In a short war with Russia Nato would do quite well, but a longer conventional war would be very different. It takes a long time to rearm and upgrade and we do not manufacture many of the components needed.

    One reason that we developed nuclear weapons was to avoid the huge costs of large standing arsenals and militaries.

    Also other factors, not least trained manpower and political will.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,304
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while there is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    The curious thing is that Musk has previously backed, with his own money, brand and talent, the "innovation not hair shirt" approach. And with the improvements in solar and batteries, that has very largely worked. A very large percentage of the solution exists, and capitalism is delivering it. It's just a question of doing it.

    Yay capitalism.

    And now it seems that Musk is backing away from his triumph, just as it is happening. Why? Has he been driven mad by his own opinion machine?
    You should watch his commentary. He’s not backing away from anything, he thinks much of the US economy can and should be powered by solar / batteries with electric consumption. He just does not think climate change is the most pressing matter for human civilisation. Nor does Bill Gates any more of course.
    The correct answer is what Musk is doing, advancing the state of technology. Unfortunately the Chinese are doing the same.
    That's not unfortunate; we'd be screwed if they weren't.
    What is truly unfortunate is that we ceded domination of both battery and solar production to them by default.
    China has just installed more solar power in six months than the US has installed ever.
  • Nigelb said:

    Oh my word.


    Conspiracy theorists will also have noted his recently repeated wish for his wife to convert from Hinduism.

    A wife switch before the presidential primaries ?
    Just tell her to convert or he's going to ring ICE.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,428

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while their is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    It’s not worth it at the cost of all else, which is the Miliband approach. You do that which is most economic and not that which is not. It’s rather extraordinary by the way to characterise Musk as a climate denialist and rather undermines your opinion on this matter.
    I didn't call Musk a denialist, did I? Miliband's approach is almost indistinguishable from the previous government.

    Anyway, the logical outcome from this kind of debate is we need to think about investing much more in adaptation. Flooding is the obvious one (particularly SE England).
    Dredge the rivers. Build more reservoirs to store the water, so we don't have winter floods and summer droughts every sodding year. Old school actual water management, as banned by the EU's absurd habitats regulations - the ones we no longer have to abide by. Next.
    Dredge the rivers is hilariously wrong. Just ridiculous. Happily we have experts working hard to find ways to reduce flooding and advising the government so we don't repeat the stupidity of the past.
    In some specific places - the man made ditches in Somerset a lack of mainatainance (I.e. dredging) was certainly an issue for widespread flooding of the levels. That’s a man made system not being maintained., and the levels reverting to being a flood system.
    Same around Abingdon. There were several streams, where you’d normally have a little rivulet running at the bottom of a great big, sandy channel. Which could take about 100x the water in a spate.

    They were man made (expanded), probably in medieval times. Full of life - tadpoles, small fish. Tons of butterflies.

    Then they got neglected. Not such that shopping trolleys are natural, but hey. Environment Agency said don’t touch…

    Anyway, when the big flood came, local flooding. Then they got cleared out. Back to the old state.
    The Environment Agency have always been utterly useless since their Inception in 1996 when the National Rivers Authority joined forces with local authority waste regulators. When I ran the Safety Kleen branch in Cardiff I would arrive to find a Transit van load of green waste against the roller shutter door. I had to move it before the vans could leave for the day. Initially I hired skips but after no interest from the EA (NRW are just as useless) I found a black bag with an address in it and they were unprepared to investigate, I got the warehouse man to put the garden waste onto the rear drive of the mothballed Royal Mail depot drive next door. After a while the fly tippers assumed this was a legitimate free tip and proceeded to deposit their green waste in neat open windrows. So there is no hope for your rivers without the intervention of Mother Nature.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,788
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    There will now basically be two modern MBTs in Europe: Rheinmetal's offering, and the S Korean Panther, so it will be two rather than one.

    Having two suppliers means being able to negotiate better deals for localised production.
    No reason that BAE can't stay in the game by collaborating (they already do with Rheinmetal).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    The problem is that the quality mentality.

    Which means that if we could afford hundreds of something cheap, it must be better to spend the money on a few dozens.

    For artillery - buy 500 RCH-155 or Archer. At level, you’d get the factory built in the U.K. - probably more than one. Order a hundred million shell *bodies* - again, you’d get factories built. Why shell bodies? Well, it takes time and a serious factory to make them. Unfilled, they are just a nicely machined piece of steel - they will last for a hundred years.

    That little lot would upset any opposing army on the planet.
  • How Andrew made £15m selling Sunninghill Park, his wedding gift

    The property had been owned by the Crown Estate, but he pocketed the proceeds of its sale to a Kazakh billionaire to pay for Royal Lodge renovations


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/inside-andrew-sunninghill-park-deal-prsrxh9q3
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,723
    Nigelb said:

    Oh my word.


    Conspiracy theorists will also have noted his recently repeated wish for his wife to convert from Hinduism.

    A wife switch before the presidential primaries ?
    If the skin lightening creams don't work..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,212
    edited November 2
    Sir John Major giving an interesting interview on Love Your Weekend with Alan Titchmarsh on ITV now
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,434
    edited November 2
    boulay said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Agreed. I hope the military notice the point made about how the Ukrainians have been using helicopters very successfully to hit drones and are getting the Army Air Corps practicing on this - if it is a successful tactic then use the money from tanks on light, fast well armed helicopters.

    I do think that the long term spending should be done on the basis of we will only be fighting in Arctic/Baltic/Eastern Europe on land and the North Sea, Arctic Sea, and North Atlantic in a defensive war. We should not be getting involved in Africa, Mid East or Pacific so should arm and prep purely for what would work in “our areas” and the conditions and enemy.

    If the world is in such a shitshow that we need to be involved in a war elsewhere like a world war then we will have to adapt as best as we can with what we have but until then we really have one enemy - Russia, in a pretty specific physical environment that we can prepare for with allies.
    I don't follow this logic. We have no appetite to take them on at all in a conventional war - see the repeated incursions into NATO territory with no repurcussions. Why would we want to spend any more money on something we won't use? We already have pretty formidable capabilities just sat around doing nothing.

    I think a lot of this chat about increasing defence budgets is virtue signalling - particularly when it comes from people who are so appalled at the idea of us actually it on the Russians.
  • Ugh.

    Andrew Mountbatten Windsor arranged a private tour of Buckingham Palace while the late Queen was in residence, for businessmen from a cryptocurrency mining firm which agreed to pay his ex-wife up to £1.4m, the BBC can reveal.

    Jay Bloom and his colleague Michael Evers were driven through the palace gates in the former prince's own car after being collected from their five-star Knightsbridge hotel for the visit in June 2019.

    Their company, Pegasus Group Holdings, which Mr Bloom co-founded, employed Sarah Ferguson as a "brand ambassador" for a crypto-mining scheme which would lose investors millions when it failed less than a year later.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5q05v0q1xo
  • Still not too late to pass a Bill of Attainder.

    Andrew erased royal tributes to Jeffrey Epstein victims

    King Charles’s brother routinely refused to sign off statements that supported survivors of abuse. After 15 years of scandal, Charles acknowledged them himself


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-statement-andrew-mountbatten-windsor-m89svml7c
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,723

    How Andrew made £15m selling Sunninghill Park, his wedding gift

    The property had been owned by the Crown Estate, but he pocketed the proceeds of its sale to a Kazakh billionaire to pay for Royal Lodge renovations


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/inside-andrew-sunninghill-park-deal-prsrxh9q3

    Didn't Mr Windsor Mountbatten also sell a Swiss ski chalet (an absolute necessity for a working royal) for millions?
    Thank goodness the king and his wee boy have sorted out the Andrew problem once and for all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,788
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Short wars are won by existing weapons, but longer wars are won by industrial production*. These don't have to be the best design. No one would claim the Sherman was a better tank than the Panther. Kursk was a major turning point in the war but the tank losses on either side were a rounding error in terms of production. The Germans lost several hundred tanks there but built 11 000 in 1943.

    In a short war with Russia Nato would do quite well, but a longer conventional war would be very different. It takes a long time to rearm and upgrade and we do not manufacture many of the components needed.

    One reason that we developed nuclear weapons was to avoid the huge costs of large standing arsenals and militaries.

    Also other factors, not least trained manpower and political will.
    That's less true than it was.
    Europe is (only) now rebuilding a lot of production capacity.
    And if/when Ukraine becomes part of the EU/NATO, then its defence capacity will massively outweigh Russia.

    What matters in the longer term is the competitiveness of European industry.
    We barely count in advanced chip manufacturing (even ASML is majority technology acquired in the US) for example.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while their is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    It’s not worth it at the cost of all else, which is the Miliband approach. You do that which is most economic and not that which is not. It’s rather extraordinary by the way to characterise Musk as a climate denialist and rather undermines your opinion on this matter.
    I didn't call Musk a denialist, did I? Miliband's approach is almost indistinguishable from the previous government.

    Anyway, the logical outcome from this kind of debate is we need to think about investing much more in adaptation. Flooding is the obvious one (particularly SE England).
    Dredge the rivers. Build more reservoirs to store the water, so we don't have winter floods and summer droughts every sodding year. Old school actual water management, as banned by the EU's absurd habitats regulations - the ones we no longer have to abide by. Next.
    Dredge the rivers is hilariously wrong. Just ridiculous. Happily we have experts working hard to find ways to reduce flooding and advising the government so we don't repeat the stupidity of the past.
    In some specific places - the man made ditches in Somerset a lack of mainatainance (I.e. dredging) was certainly an issue for widespread flooding of the levels. That’s a man made system not being maintained., and the levels reverting to being a flood system.
    Same around Abingdon. There were several streams, where you’d normally have a little rivulet running at the bottom of a great big, sandy channel. Which could take about 100x the water in a spate.

    They were man made (expanded), probably in medieval times. Full of life - tadpoles, small fish. Tons of butterflies.

    Then they got neglected. Not such that shopping trolleys are natural, but hey. Environment Agency said don’t touch…

    Anyway, when the big flood came, local flooding. Then they got cleared out. Back to the old state.
    The Environment Agency have always been utterly useless since their Inception in 1996 when the National Rivers Authority joined forces with local authority waste regulators. When I ran the Safety Kleen branch in Cardiff I would arrive to find a Transit van load of green waste against the roller shutter door. I had to move it before the vans could leave for the day. Initially I hired skips but after no interest from the EA (NRW are just as useless) I found a black bag with an address in it and they were unprepared to investigate, I got the warehouse man to put the garden waste onto the rear drive of the mothballed Royal Mail depot drive next door. After a while the fly tippers assumed this was a legitimate free tip and proceeded to deposit their green waste in neat open windrows. So there is no hope for your rivers without the intervention of Mother Nature.
    I was told by a senior civil servant that, under Blair, various “environmental” policies were really about cutting spending. The idea being to pour all available cash into schools and hospitals.

    So the Environment Agency became big on “leave it alone” and major road building was stopped.

    The idea was that it was the kind of cuts that the left of the party would like.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,658
    Healey said: "The early assessment is that this was an isolated incident, an isolated attack.

    "So there's no reason for the rest of us not to get on with our lives, get on and travel to the places we need to get to."

    He described the British public as "pretty tough, pretty resilient" but added the threats the country faced, from other nations as well as terror, required people to be "more vigilant".
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,879

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Ex turpi causa non oritur actio.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,519
    edited November 2
    Tres said:

    This Vance Kirk things gonna lead to some cracking conspiracy theories.

    MAGA won't have any problems with it, even if there is more.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,839

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Just look at Greta. Completely forgotten about climate change and wrapped herself in a Palestinian flag.
    Don’t make stuff up. I just looked at her Instagram. The majority of recent posts are about Sudan, while there are others about Palestine and about climate change.
    Sudan? So she's found a new bandwagon to jump on.
    She can’t win with you, can she? If she doesn’t say anything about Sudan, you’d accuse her of being too obsessed with Palestine and ignoring Sudan. If she does say something about Sudan, you accuse her of jumping on a bandwagon.
    She's supposed to be an "environmental campaigner".

    Neither Palestinian nor Sudan are part of that brief.

    What do you mean, “She's supposed to be an "environmental campaigner".”? She’s a private individual. She can do what she wants.
    I think people are just surprised that having staged a school strike for years over the Climate to draw public attention to an issue she felt was absolutely critical to our survival - and massively sidelined - she's now, when it has yet again taken a back seat, and progress has stalled, deciding to focus most of her energy on Gaza.

    Yes, she can do what she likes. Yes, you can find the odd post on Instagram that still mentions the climate but it makes some question whether what really drives her has changed.
    I'm concerned about climate change mostly because of the adverse effect it will have on people. It doesn't seem that much of a stretch to them be concerned about a war that has lead to do much civilian suffering.

    Of course it is ironic that this is an argument often used against acting on climate change - that we have more immediate problems to deal with.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,936

    Healey said: "The early assessment is that this was an isolated incident, an isolated attack.

    "So there's no reason for the rest of us not to get on with our lives, get on and travel to the places we need to get to."

    He described the British public as "pretty tough, pretty resilient" but added the threats the country faced, from other nations as well as terror, required people to be "more vigilant".

    So on one hand he’s saying it’s a lone nutter with a knife, and on the other that we need to be more aware of terrorists.

    That doesn’t add up.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042
    Eabhal said:

    boulay said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Agreed. I hope the military notice the point made about how the Ukrainians have been using helicopters very successfully to hit drones and are getting the Army Air Corps practicing on this - if it is a successful tactic then use the money from tanks on light, fast well armed helicopters.

    I do think that the long term spending should be done on the basis of we will only be fighting in Arctic/Baltic/Eastern Europe on land and the North Sea, Arctic Sea, and North Atlantic in a defensive war. We should not be getting involved in Africa, Mid East or Pacific so should arm and prep purely for what would work in “our areas” and the conditions and enemy.

    If the world is in such a shitshow that we need to be involved in a war elsewhere like a world war then we will have to adapt as best as we can with what we have but until then we really have one enemy - Russia, in a pretty specific physical environment that we can prepare for with allies.
    I don't follow this logic. We have no appetite to take them on at all in a conventional war - see the repeated incursions into NATO territory with no repurcussions. Why would we want to spend any more money on something we won't use? We already have pretty formidable capabilities just sat around doing nothing.

    I think a lot of this chat about increasing defence budgets is virtue signalling - particularly when it comes from people who are so appalled at the idea of us actually it on the Russians.
    On the incursions - since the start of the Cold War, the pattern was always that NATO responded to incursions with polite escorting, the Russians tried to kill everyone and everything.

    When a Russian patrol aircraft, believed to be carrying nukes, got lost and landed in Alaska, the US let them stay overnight. They provided them with heaters, blankets and food (otherwise they would have been forced out if the plane). In the morning they filled up the plane with fuel and sent them home. The bill for fuel etc was sent to the Russian embassy. Who never paid..

    The point about having a large arsenal is to deter attacks on the Baltics and Poland. It is also to have weapons to lend/give to those who are be attacked.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,861

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while there is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    The curious thing is that Musk has previously backed, with his own money, brand and talent, the "innovation not hair shirt" approach. And with the improvements in solar and batteries, that has very largely worked. A very large percentage of the solution exists, and capitalism is delivering it. It's just a question of doing it.

    Yay capitalism.

    And now it seems that Musk is backing away from his triumph, just as it is happening. Why? Has he been driven mad by his own opinion machine?
    You should watch his commentary. He’s not backing away from anything, he thinks much of the US economy can and should be powered by solar / batteries with electric consumption. He just does not think climate change is the most pressing matter for human civilisation. Nor does Bill Gates any more of course.
    The correct answer is what Musk is doing, advancing the state of technology. Unfortunately the Chinese are doing the same.
    That's not unfortunate; we'd be screwed if they weren't.
    What is truly unfortunate is that we ceded domination of both battery and solar production to them by default.
    China has just installed more solar power in six months than the US has installed ever.
    They don’t have Liberal Democrat NIMBY councils over there so can get stuff done.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,936
    MattW said:

    Tres said:

    This Vance Kirk things gonna lead to some cracking conspiracy theories.

    MAGA won't have any problems with it, even if there is more.
    JD Vance turned up to a Hallowe’en party dressed as a fat meme of himself.

    https://x.com/mtp4real/status/1984415019086561513

    Those who hate him, really hate that he has a sense of humour.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,207

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,839
    edited November 2

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    The problem is that the quality mentality.

    Which means that if we could afford hundreds of something cheap, it must be better to spend the money on a few dozens.

    For artillery - buy 500 RCH-155 or Archer. At level, you’d get the factory built in the U.K. - probably more than one. Order a hundred million shell *bodies* - again, you’d get factories built. Why shell bodies? Well, it takes time and a serious factory to make them. Unfilled, they are just a nicely machined piece of steel - they will last for a hundred years.

    That little lot would upset any opposing army on the planet.
    The main reason to go for quality over quantity is that it gives you a stronger military with a lower manpower requirement. In general this is a good objective - we're not Russia and we should seek to be minimising casualties as much as possible by using better kit.

    Sure, you can take this process too far, but I'd want to be further over on the quality end of quality/quantity spectrum than any adversary.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,658
    edited November 2
    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.
  • Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while there is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    The curious thing is that Musk has previously backed, with his own money, brand and talent, the "innovation not hair shirt" approach. And with the improvements in solar and batteries, that has very largely worked. A very large percentage of the solution exists, and capitalism is delivering it. It's just a question of doing it.

    Yay capitalism.

    And now it seems that Musk is backing away from his triumph, just as it is happening. Why? Has he been driven mad by his own opinion machine?
    You should watch his commentary. He’s not backing away from anything, he thinks much of the US economy can and should be powered by solar / batteries with electric consumption. He just does not think climate change is the most pressing matter for human civilisation. Nor does Bill Gates any more of course.
    The correct answer is what Musk is doing, advancing the state of technology. Unfortunately the Chinese are doing the same.
    That's not unfortunate; we'd be screwed if they weren't.
    What is truly unfortunate is that we ceded domination of both battery and solar production to them by default.
    China has just installed more solar power in six months than the US has installed ever.
    They don’t have Liberal Democrat NIMBY councils over there so can get stuff done.
    The US has Liberal Democrat councils?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,212
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while there is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    The curious thing is that Musk has previously backed, with his own money, brand and talent, the "innovation not hair shirt" approach. And with the improvements in solar and batteries, that has very largely worked. A very large percentage of the solution exists, and capitalism is delivering it. It's just a question of doing it.

    Yay capitalism.

    And now it seems that Musk is backing away from his triumph, just as it is happening. Why? Has he been driven mad by his own opinion machine?
    You should watch his commentary. He’s not backing away from anything, he thinks much of the US economy can and should be powered by solar / batteries with electric consumption. He just does not think climate change is the most pressing matter for human civilisation. Nor does Bill Gates any more of course.
    The correct answer is what Musk is doing, advancing the state of technology. Unfortunately the Chinese are doing the same.
    That's not unfortunate; we'd be screwed if they weren't.
    What is truly unfortunate is that we ceded domination of both battery and solar production to them by default.
    China has just installed more solar power in six months than the US has installed ever.
    They don’t have Liberal Democrat NIMBY councils over there so can get stuff done.
    It is also a one party state so political opponents of the regime just get jailed
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,325

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,824
    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    Surely in these grim and depressing days we need more comic singers in ordee to keep up national morale?
  • Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    It's terror in that people were terrified.

    It's not terrorism in that its not Al Qaida or similar.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,936
    edited November 2
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    Surely in these grim and depressing days we need more comic singers in ordee to keep up national morale?
    Sadly Victoria Wood is no longer with us, Flanders and Swan having departed some time before that. Can we adopt Weird Al Yankovic from the US and Tim Minchin from Australia?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,304
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    Surely in these grim and depressing days we need more comic singers in ordee to keep up national morale?
    Sadly Victoria Wood is no longer with us. Can we adopt Weird Al Yankovic from the US?
    He's only Weird in America. Here, he'd fit right in and just be Al....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,396

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    Whether it gets labelled terrorism or not, at some point they'll have to say whether this was an on-board incident that escalated or whether this was a premeditated attack.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,207
    Taz said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    It is not wrong to wonder why this violent thug was given asylum after one violent attack. Now up to 5, and not wrong to want him deported.

    A few here would see him as a victim of racism.

    https://x.com/bea_johanssen/status/1984574712266023361?s=61
    It is quite unbelievable. Anyone coming here should have to survive on their own , no benefits of any kind whatsoever and any crimes means instant deportation.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,325

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    It's terror in that people were terrified.

    It's not terrorism in that its not Al Qaida or similar.
    This needs to be better expressed by the police in these situations. “Terror related / not terror related” in these circumstances might have perfectly sound operational meanings, but they jar as public-facing phrases, and this helps fuel the fire.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,839
    edited November 2
    Sandpit said:

    Healey said: "The early assessment is that this was an isolated incident, an isolated attack.

    "So there's no reason for the rest of us not to get on with our lives, get on and travel to the places we need to get to."

    He described the British public as "pretty tough, pretty resilient" but added the threats the country faced, from other nations as well as terror, required people to be "more vigilant".

    So on one hand he’s saying it’s a lone nutter with a knife, and on the other that we need to be more aware of terrorists.

    That doesn’t add up.
    There are lots of lone nutters with knives.

    The significance of them being lone nutters is that their attacks aren't coordinated. So an attack on a train yesterday does not presage a sustained campaign of knife attacks on trains. A previous lone nutter with a knife attacked a synagogue, and before that was the Taylor Swift dance class.

    These attacks are uncoordinated, so there's no particular reason to avoid trains, but people should be vigilant everywhere.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,434
    edited November 2

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,815
    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    People with ILR are legal migrants, that's what "Indefinite Leave to Remain" means.

    We have a demographic problem, an increasing proportion of retired people, if the UK doesn't allow working age migration there'll be not enough working people to pay for pensions and healthcare.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,723
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    Surely in these grim and depressing days we need more comic singers in ordee to keep up national morale?
    It's comical that this guy thinks he's a singer but not much morale being kept up.

    https://x.com/churnwell/status/1983647530752897387
  • TresTres Posts: 3,173
    I guess this vindicates Sunak, imagine how many more such incidents we'd suffer if we had all these extra high speed trains hurtling up and down the country.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,449

    Anyhoo, my holiday is over, you can all leave your fallout shelters until next February.

    Hmmm.... Muslim, and a Liverpool Fan, and on holiday?

    Is this you, TSE? :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHmSMGccZ70

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    The problem is that the quality mentality.

    Which means that if we could afford hundreds of something cheap, it must be better to spend the money on a few dozens.

    For artillery - buy 500 RCH-155 or Archer. At level, you’d get the factory built in the U.K. - probably more than one. Order a hundred million shell *bodies* - again, you’d get factories built. Why shell bodies? Well, it takes time and a serious factory to make them. Unfilled, they are just a nicely machined piece of steel - they will last for a hundred years.

    That little lot would upset any opposing army on the planet.
    The main reason to go for quality over quantity is that it gives you a stronger military with a lower manpower requirement. In general this is a good objective - we're not Russia and we should seek to be minimising casualties as much as possible by using better kit.

    Sure, you can take this process too far, but I'd want to be further over on the quality end of quality/quantity spectrum than any adversary.
    Archer and RCH-155 are top of the line.

    The problem is that just buying them wasn’t sexy. Without Unique British Requirements, it wouldn’t keep the managers managing. And without silly little bits* of work for British firms added on, the politicians would be unhappy.

    So the original plan was less than a 100 of something custom. Most probably 50, after the usual disastrous over runs.

    My way, we’d have the biggest manufacturing facility for SPGs in Europe. So the next generation would naturally tend to be built here.
    The whole thing, not just some seat covers.

    With the money saved and spent on shell bodies, we’d have the industrial plant to be the biggest manufacturer of shells in Europe. So if anyone needed shells, they’d be calling us.

    *in one project, they have the work for a handful of seat covers to a British firm. With a resultant price per seat….
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,658
    Two people remain in a life-threatening condition in hospital, police say

    The police said that while nine people were initially believed to have life-threatening injuries, following assessment and treatment four have been discharged but two people remain in a “life threatening condition”.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,607

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    Terrorism has a political motive.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,519
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    Surely in these grim and depressing days we need more comic singers in ordee to keep up national morale?
    Sadly Victoria Wood is no longer with us, Flanders and Swan having departed some time before that. Can we adopt Weird Al Yankovic from the US and Tim Minchin from Australia?
    Fascinating Aida are still around (Christmas Song 2024 - bannable on PB).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vBXFAyUXBc

    As - allegedly - are Instant Sunshine.
    (I don't believe it, said in Glaswegian.)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,839
    Eabhal said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
    We don't describe serial killers as terrorists. Terrorism implies a political agenda.

    Some people are violent nihilists.

    It is useful to discriminate between the two.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,349

    Sandpit said:

    Well it turns out that the Ukranian attack on Tuapse Oil Terminal was worse than first thought.

    Not only is the terminal itself, one of only three in Russia and originator of $7bn/year in exports, completely destroyed, but two dodgy tankers that were on site are also still on fire.

    https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1984913621684494529

    Ukrainian intel is always spot on. Always manage to hit just when ships are loading oil/unloading weapons.
    While these sort of attacks are chicken soup for the soul, this is not by itself a game changer. This terminal exports around 7m mt of refined product per year out of around 150m mt total, with a fairly incidental secondary stream of crude. Refined products exports are only around a third of the Russian hydrocarbons total. And it will likely be online again in weeks to months. So a drop in the ocean.

    But what else is an ocean but a multitude of drops.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,859

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    The 'not terrorist' makes me wonder about the second arrestee - were they a couple of travelling companions and one had a knife and went postal, but the other as his companion was arrested on the possibility of joint enterprise - on the presumption that the knife man and the companion share some commonalities - or were there two active stabbers?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Eabhal said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Musk has spoken quite a bit in the last 48 hours about climate change. I think his view is correct. This doesn’t need to be solved at the cost of all else in the next 5 years, but it needs to have been addressed roughly by the time the century is out.

    In truth, man made climate change is rather low down the list for likely causes of civilisational collapse.
    That's not really how climate change works though, is it?

    It's going to be exceptionally difficult to reverse and, while there is enormous uncertainty about the severity and nature of the ongoing damage, it's almost certainly better value to reduce emissions now than spend billions on flood defences and deal with mass migration from Africa, crop blight etc etc. Or at least it is if you are younger or care about the next few generations.

    The same people who were denying climate change existed have now reached a final, late stage of denialism where they insist it's not worth doing anything about. It's pathetic and transparent.
    The curious thing is that Musk has previously backed, with his own money, brand and talent, the "innovation not hair shirt" approach. And with the improvements in solar and batteries, that has very largely worked. A very large percentage of the solution exists, and capitalism is delivering it. It's just a question of doing it.

    Yay capitalism.

    And now it seems that Musk is backing away from his triumph, just as it is happening. Why? Has he been driven mad by his own opinion machine?
    You should watch his commentary. He’s not backing away from anything, he thinks much of the US economy can and should be powered by solar / batteries with electric consumption. He just does not think climate change is the most pressing matter for human civilisation. Nor does Bill Gates any more of course.
    The correct answer is what Musk is doing, advancing the state of technology. Unfortunately the Chinese are doing the same.
    That's not unfortunate; we'd be screwed if they weren't.
    What is truly unfortunate is that we ceded domination of both battery and solar production to them by default.
    China has just installed more solar power in six months than the US has installed ever.
    They don’t have Liberal Democrat NIMBY councils over there so can get stuff done.
    The US has Liberal Democrat councils?
    US NIMYism is an order of magnitude beyond U.K. NIMYIsm.

    In the places where a mad free-for-all hasn’t happened, there are laws and regulations for everything.

    If you want to start a barbers shop in much of the US, it can take a year or more to get all the permits lined up.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,839
    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    People with ILR are legal migrants, that's what "Indefinite Leave to Remain" means.

    We have a demographic problem, an increasing proportion of retired people, if the UK doesn't allow working age migration there'll be not enough working people to pay for pensions and healthcare.
    There's an obvious problem if British society cannot function without an infinitely expanding population.

    Care to guess what it is?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,434

    Eabhal said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
    We don't describe serial killers as terrorists. Terrorism implies a political agenda.

    Some people are violent nihilists.

    It is useful to discriminate between the two.
    I agree - it's just the sort of thing that people have been arrested for over the last few months is very clearly not terrorism either, whatever the legislation says.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,304

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    The problem is that the quality mentality.

    Which means that if we could afford hundreds of something cheap, it must be better to spend the money on a few dozens.

    For artillery - buy 500 RCH-155 or Archer. At level, you’d get the factory built in the U.K. - probably more than one. Order a hundred million shell *bodies* - again, you’d get factories built. Why shell bodies? Well, it takes time and a serious factory to make them. Unfilled, they are just a nicely machined piece of steel - they will last for a hundred years.

    That little lot would upset any opposing army on the planet.
    The main reason to go for quality over quantity is that it gives you a stronger military with a lower manpower requirement. In general this is a good objective - we're not Russia and we should seek to be minimising casualties as much as possible by using better kit.

    Sure, you can take this process too far, but I'd want to be further over on the quality end of quality/quantity spectrum than any adversary.
    Archer and RCH-155 are top of the line.

    The problem is that just buying them wasn’t sexy. Without Unique British Requirements, it wouldn’t keep the managers managing. And without silly little bits* of work for British firms added on, the politicians would be unhappy.

    So the original plan was less than a 100 of something custom. Most probably 50, after the usual disastrous over runs.

    My way, we’d have the biggest manufacturing facility for SPGs in Europe. So the next generation would naturally tend to be built here.
    The whole thing, not just some seat covers.

    With the money saved and spent on shell bodies, we’d have the industrial plant to be the biggest manufacturer of shells in Europe. So if anyone needed shells, they’d be calling us.

    *in one project, they have the work for a handful of seat covers to a British firm. With a resultant price per seat….
    Do you really need that many shells though, if you are delivering them by drone? Some 75-80% of Russian tank/IFV kills are by Ukrainian FPV drones now. Even if you need 5 drones each to finish off that number, that needs a tiny fraction of the shells previously used to blanket the batllefield.

    Invest in drones and spotty kids in their bedroom who can take out a couple of MBT before they even get up. Cheap as chips.

  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,747
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Tres said:

    This Vance Kirk things gonna lead to some cracking conspiracy theories.

    MAGA won't have any problems with it, even if there is more.
    JD Vance turned up to a Hallowe’en party dressed as a fat meme of himself.

    https://x.com/mtp4real/status/1984415019086561513

    Those who hate him, really hate that he has a sense of humour.
    I’m not a fan of his but it did amuse me when I saw it. In a weird way I think it’s a lot more dangerous to have someone like him in control where he has the wit and ability to mock himself than a humourless unfunny idiot as it shows an intelligence and awareness which idiots like Trump and other hard-men don’t have.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,325

    Eabhal said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
    We don't describe serial killers as terrorists. Terrorism implies a political agenda.

    Some people are violent nihilists.

    It is useful to discriminate between the two.
    Isn’t violent nihilism in and of itself a type of agenda or ideology though?

    This is where it all gets very murky. I do understand what the police are driving at when they make that distinction - I’m just saying it is a clumsy distinction in the eyes of the public, and in the case of mass casualty events hearing that it’s “not terror-related” rings rather hollow.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,859

    Two people remain in a life-threatening condition in hospital, police say

    The police said that while nine people were initially believed to have life-threatening injuries, following assessment and treatment four have been discharged but two people remain in a “life threatening condition”.

    I think life-threatening may initially have been used for "we're not sure how much blood these victims have lost" and was stood down after initial treatment for some of them.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,735
    tlg86 said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    Whether it gets labelled terrorism or not, at some point they'll have to say whether this was an on-board incident that escalated or whether this was a premeditated attack.
    Well the knife didn't come from the buffet car.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,519

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    The problem is that the quality mentality.

    Which means that if we could afford hundreds of something cheap, it must be better to spend the money on a few dozens.

    For artillery - buy 500 RCH-155 or Archer. At level, you’d get the factory built in the U.K. - probably more than one. Order a hundred million shell *bodies* - again, you’d get factories built. Why shell bodies? Well, it takes time and a serious factory to make them. Unfilled, they are just a nicely machined piece of steel - they will last for a hundred years.

    That little lot would upset any opposing army on the planet.
    The main reason to go for quality over quantity is that it gives you a stronger military with a lower manpower requirement. In general this is a good objective - we're not Russia and we should seek to be minimising casualties as much as possible by using better kit.

    Sure, you can take this process too far, but I'd want to be further over on the quality end of quality/quantity spectrum than any adversary.
    Archer and RCH-155 are top of the line.

    The problem is that just buying them wasn’t sexy. Without Unique British Requirements, it wouldn’t keep the managers managing. And without silly little bits* of work for British firms added on, the politicians would be unhappy.

    So the original plan was less than a 100 of something custom. Most probably 50, after the usual disastrous over runs.

    My way, we’d have the biggest manufacturing facility for SPGs in Europe. So the next generation would naturally tend to be built here.
    The whole thing, not just some seat covers.

    With the money saved and spent on shell bodies, we’d have the industrial plant to be the biggest manufacturer of shells in Europe. So if anyone needed shells, they’d be calling us.

    *in one project, they have the work for a handful of seat covers to a British firm. With a resultant price per seat….
    AIUI we already have the new shell factories in place - 300k-500k per annum capacity.

    And are we not purchasing something like 200 RCH-155?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,839
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
    We don't describe serial killers as terrorists. Terrorism implies a political agenda.

    Some people are violent nihilists.

    It is useful to discriminate between the two.
    I agree - it's just the sort of thing that people have been arrested for over the last few months is very clearly not terrorism either, whatever the legislation says.
    I think people have mostly been arrested for supporting terrorism, rather than terrorism per se. I wouldn't describe Palestine Action as terrorist myself, but I don't see it as confusing the definition of terrorism for people to be arrested for supporting a terrorist organisation.

    It's all logically consistent with the (imo flawed) decision to designate Palestine Action.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,349

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    The problem is that the quality mentality.

    Which means that if we could afford hundreds of something cheap, it must be better to spend the money on a few dozens.

    For artillery - buy 500 RCH-155 or Archer. At level, you’d get the factory built in the U.K. - probably more than one. Order a hundred million shell *bodies* - again, you’d get factories built. Why shell bodies? Well, it takes time and a serious factory to make them. Unfilled, they are just a nicely machined piece of steel - they will last for a hundred years.

    That little lot would upset any opposing army on the planet.
    The main reason to go for quality over quantity is that it gives you a stronger military with a lower manpower requirement. In general this is a good objective - we're not Russia and we should seek to be minimising casualties as much as possible by using better kit.

    Sure, you can take this process too far, but I'd want to be further over on the quality end of quality/quantity spectrum than any adversary.
    Archer and RCH-155 are top of the line.

    The problem is that just buying them wasn’t sexy. Without Unique British Requirements, it wouldn’t keep the managers managing. And without silly little bits* of work for British firms added on, the politicians would be unhappy.

    So the original plan was less than a 100 of something custom. Most probably 50, after the usual disastrous over runs.

    My way, we’d have the biggest manufacturing facility for SPGs in Europe. So the next generation would naturally tend to be built here.
    The whole thing, not just some seat covers.

    With the money saved and spent on shell bodies, we’d have the industrial plant to be the biggest manufacturer of shells in Europe. So if anyone needed shells, they’d be calling us.

    *in one project, they have the work for a handful of seat covers to a British firm. With a resultant price per seat….
    Do you really need that many shells though, if you are delivering them by drone? Some 75-80% of Russian tank/IFV kills are by Ukrainian FPV drones now. Even if you need 5 drones each to finish off that number, that needs a tiny fraction of the shells previously used to blanket the batllefield.

    Invest in drones and spotty kids in their bedroom who can take out a couple of MBT before they even get up. Cheap as chips.

    Ww3 might not be fought with nukes but swarms of autonomous bumble bee sized explosive drones. Let of a million of them to seek out destroy the first human it encounters. Or you could even discriminate using facial ID if you were so minded.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,207
    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    People with ILR are legal migrants, that's what "Indefinite Leave to Remain" means.

    We have a demographic problem, an increasing proportion of retired people, if the UK doesn't allow working age migration there'll be not enough working people to pay for pensions and healthcare.
    I know ILR are supposedly legal but in past any man and their dog could get it and then bring in every relative they could round up.
    The country is a shitshow and just letting any Tom, Dick or Harry in is mental. Other countries seem to be able to decide what skilled people they want in the country, UK is totally incapable of that and suffers 50K arses coming in boats, snds taxis for them , puts them up in hotels and treats them to all the best. Surprise surprise that the crooks cannot buy enough boats to satisfy demand.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,879
    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    The nation needs to stop with the 'don't look back in anger'. We need to be livid, we need to be angry we need to show the inherent exceptionalism of British civilisation and express that anger to the institutions and the people that man them and their failure, not the individuals who shouldnt be here, or came because it was a rational choice for them to do so, but the people who let them in. Every politician needs to be afraid that the ballot box is coming for them. Every local government officer, every civil servant, every charity worker and activist who's charity is supping from the taxpayer and is complicit in how our nation has rapidly transformed over the last decade.
    But it makes me feel a bit dirty that the change is through Farage and Reform.
    Thanks for taking the bait. This is the absurdity of you religious war warriors. Even now you are dancing round your handbag unwilling to state precisely which people you want to deport and why.

    To say nothing of the ultimate absurdity. This is put down as "Christianity" against Islam. But most of the "we're Christians" mob aren't...
    I'm fairly clear. I want to deport every damn illegal immigrant, every one of them. I wand the IRL rules changed that anyone with IRL who is convicted of a crime that involves a custodial sentence is added to the list of deportees. That's enough to be getting on with. I dont care what religion they are.
    I've not mentioned religion, directly or indirectly, or intended to infer.
    Just so we are clear. You decry the endless posts from all the people who like you demand to deport all the illegals because they are "fighting age" muslims?
    I'm nobody's keeper, or accountable for the actions and opinions of others. Go and have your straw man arguments with someone else.
    Thats ok thanks. I am just curious because you appear to be the sole person wanting to deport all illegals who isn't foaming about Islam.

    What are the reasons why you want to deport them? We've dismissed race. So why?
    Count me as number 2. The clue is in "illegal", we have enough layabouts , deadbeats and comic singers in this country without having to spend fortunes looking after illegal ones.
    People with ILR are legal migrants, that's what "Indefinite Leave to Remain" means.

    We have a demographic problem, an increasing proportion of retired people, if the UK doesn't allow working age migration there'll be not enough working people to pay for pensions and healthcare.
    It does. It's called the Visa system. Those without a visa or are confirmed refuges shouldn't be here. Allowing them to stay just corrodes the (common law) system.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042

    Eabhal said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
    We don't describe serial killers as terrorists. Terrorism implies a political agenda.

    Some people are violent nihilists.

    It is useful to discriminate between the two.
    The decline in the social fabric is evident. Nihilists used to look like this



    Now we get some idiot “road men”.

    And another thing? What kind of a road man doesn’t were hi viz and carry a gigantic cup of coffee? No wonder the tarmac is in the state it is.

    Pshaw! {adjusts monocle}
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,839

    Eabhal said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
    We don't describe serial killers as terrorists. Terrorism implies a political agenda.

    Some people are violent nihilists.

    It is useful to discriminate between the two.
    Isn’t violent nihilism in and of itself a type of agenda or ideology though?

    This is where it all gets very murky. I do understand what the police are driving at when they make that distinction - I’m just saying it is a clumsy distinction in the eyes of the public, and in the case of mass casualty events hearing that it’s “not terror-related” rings rather hollow.
    Most definitions have their grey areas where it can be hard to say exactly what side of the boundary a particular incident should lie.

    I think in this sort of situation the police could do with being a bit more explicit about what they mean by not terrorism - i.e. not motivated by an ideological agenda.

    I'm recent times it seems to be very much code for "not Muslims", and has the air of being rushed out to forestall an anti-Muslim backlash.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,449

    Eabhal said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
    We don't describe serial killers as terrorists. Terrorism implies a political agenda.

    Some people are violent nihilists.

    It is useful to discriminate between the two.
    "Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,349

    tlg86 said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    Whether it gets labelled terrorism or not, at some point they'll have to say whether this was an on-board incident that escalated or whether this was a premeditated attack.
    Well the knife didn't come from the buffet car.
    Buffet cars… my old grandad told me about those:

    https://vinepair.com/articles/british-rail-traveling-pub/
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,325
    Another thought: while the very depressing debate in these circumstances tends to focus on immigration, perhaps what I feel most strongly is that there is a growing sense of unease around public safety. Let’s leave aside ideology and nationality for a second. Do people feel more secure going about their daily business in this country than they did say 25-30 years ago? We have always had isolated incidents and attacks on the general public, but something does feel different at the moment.

    There are myriad reasons and causes, as is usual. But I do think that we need to look at policing, law and order and matters of security much more closely to try and address this. That is, of course, not something that changes overnight.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    The problem is that the quality mentality.

    Which means that if we could afford hundreds of something cheap, it must be better to spend the money on a few dozens.

    For artillery - buy 500 RCH-155 or Archer. At level, you’d get the factory built in the U.K. - probably more than one. Order a hundred million shell *bodies* - again, you’d get factories built. Why shell bodies? Well, it takes time and a serious factory to make them. Unfilled, they are just a nicely machined piece of steel - they will last for a hundred years.

    That little lot would upset any opposing army on the planet.
    The main reason to go for quality over quantity is that it gives you a stronger military with a lower manpower requirement. In general this is a good objective - we're not Russia and we should seek to be minimising casualties as much as possible by using better kit.

    Sure, you can take this process too far, but I'd want to be further over on the quality end of quality/quantity spectrum than any adversary.
    Archer and RCH-155 are top of the line.

    The problem is that just buying them wasn’t sexy. Without Unique British Requirements, it wouldn’t keep the managers managing. And without silly little bits* of work for British firms added on, the politicians would be unhappy.

    So the original plan was less than a 100 of something custom. Most probably 50, after the usual disastrous over runs.

    My way, we’d have the biggest manufacturing facility for SPGs in Europe. So the next generation would naturally tend to be built here.
    The whole thing, not just some seat covers.

    With the money saved and spent on shell bodies, we’d have the industrial plant to be the biggest manufacturer of shells in Europe. So if anyone needed shells, they’d be calling us.

    *in one project, they have the work for a handful of seat covers to a British firm. With a resultant price per seat….
    Do you really need that many shells though, if you are delivering them by drone? Some 75-80% of Russian tank/IFV kills are by Ukrainian FPV drones now. Even if you need 5 drones each to finish off that number, that needs a tiny fraction of the shells previously used to blanket the batllefield.

    Invest in drones and spotty kids in their bedroom who can take out a couple of MBT before they even get up. Cheap as chips.

    Drones of that kind are a bit of dead end, between electronic warfare and point defence systems*, they won’t be making a dent in a prepared Western Army.

    155 artillery has lasted so long, precisely because it is a balance between effective, cheap and very hard to stop.

    Archer and RCH can automatically fire a pre-loaded mix of ammunition, in a few seconds, using a mix of trajectories so that the shells all arrive at the same moment. Since they need no guidance, they can operate in radio silence, and shoot-and-scoot. That is, drive off before the shells have landed on the target.

    *There are point defence systems in service that can deal with incoming heavy supersonic ATGMs. They would be overkill for drones.
  • Eabhal said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    We've got very confused as to what terrorism is or isn't.

    Must be some very weird circumstance for two people to go on a stabbing spree on a train and it not to be terrorism though. The fact they didn't manage to kill anyone (fingers crossed) does suggest it was a bit random - could it be something as silly as being called out for not having tickets? There are rumours they started with LNER staff.
    We don't describe serial killers as terrorists. Terrorism implies a political agenda.

    Some people are violent nihilists.

    It is useful to discriminate between the two.
    "Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."
    A fantastic quote, and sometimes its really hard to discern between those who have a political/religious reason for their actions and who are just want to destroy things. Because some will masquerade with the former as a means to the latter.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,349
    moonshine said:

    Another thought: while the very depressing debate in these circumstances tends to focus on immigration, perhaps what I feel most strongly is that there is a growing sense of unease around public safety. Let’s leave aside ideology and nationality for a second. Do people feel more secure going about their daily business in this country than they did say 25-30 years ago? We have always had isolated incidents and attacks on the general public, but something does feel different at the moment.

    There are myriad reasons and causes, as is usual. But I do think that we need to look at policing, law and order and matters of security much more closely to try and address this. That is, of course, not something that changes overnight.

    Wronguns need to be excluded from society. And it starts with small crime, these mugs clearing the shelves at Greggs are adding to a downward spiral of lawlessness.
    By the way I am recently enthralled by a twitter account called Mike The Litterpicker, who is the opposite of the Greggs fiends.

    A retired chap who spends his days roaming the streets of Walsall, collecting litter, painting over graffiti and cleaning the street furniture.

    https://x.com/mike56200?s=21
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042
    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another very interesting long read on the Ukraine war, with important and urgent lessons for our defence procurement.

    Is the Ukraine War an RMA?
    https://www.chinatalk.media/p/ukraines-drone-war

    While it’s true that you always arm to fight the next war than the last one, the war in Ukraine has torn up much of the playbook when it comes to how a land war is fought in the 21st century.

    Both sides have used millions, millions of small drones, not to mention the longer-range large one-way drones currently taking out O&G facilities across Russia.

    One good thing it has shown, is that current Western kit is considerably better than Soviet kit, although the Chinese are still pushing the innovation so we need to make sire we don’t fall behind.
    The single most important lesson for me is that, given a severely constrained budget, we need to stop wasting money on legacy kit, especially the flawed stuff.
    So truncate or terminate Ajax, and definitely terminate Challenger 3. An MBT is about the least urgent requirement for the UK, and Challenger 3 will be used by literally no one else in NATO.
    And use the money saved build the army some serious artillery (with a year's worth of ammunition rather than a week's) and drone capacity.

    The choices for the navy and airforce are a lot less clear (though again, all of their kit is useless without a far larger stock of munitions).
    We need to make some choices, though, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, badly.
    Yes the most important point is that we need ammunition. Lots and lots of ammunition. You can have all the artillery, missile launchers, and air defence systems in the world, but they’re useless if they have no ammo.

    C3 tank probably makes little sense, when C2 is already better than anything an enemy can field. Going forward one common NATO design of tank hardware makes sense, that can be built anywhere with local electronics if required.

    We need to make what works already and in quantity, and then look at how innovation can help, which is clearly cheap drones mass-produced when needed.

    After the war, we can and should have the Ukranians help with knowing what worked and what didn’t. We can buy from them what they innovated and worked.
    The problem is that the quality mentality.

    Which means that if we could afford hundreds of something cheap, it must be better to spend the money on a few dozens.

    For artillery - buy 500 RCH-155 or Archer. At level, you’d get the factory built in the U.K. - probably more than one. Order a hundred million shell *bodies* - again, you’d get factories built. Why shell bodies? Well, it takes time and a serious factory to make them. Unfilled, they are just a nicely machined piece of steel - they will last for a hundred years.

    That little lot would upset any opposing army on the planet.
    The main reason to go for quality over quantity is that it gives you a stronger military with a lower manpower requirement. In general this is a good objective - we're not Russia and we should seek to be minimising casualties as much as possible by using better kit.

    Sure, you can take this process too far, but I'd want to be further over on the quality end of quality/quantity spectrum than any adversary.
    Archer and RCH-155 are top of the line.

    The problem is that just buying them wasn’t sexy. Without Unique British Requirements, it wouldn’t keep the managers managing. And without silly little bits* of work for British firms added on, the politicians would be unhappy.

    So the original plan was less than a 100 of something custom. Most probably 50, after the usual disastrous over runs.

    My way, we’d have the biggest manufacturing facility for SPGs in Europe. So the next generation would naturally tend to be built here.
    The whole thing, not just some seat covers.

    With the money saved and spent on shell bodies, we’d have the industrial plant to be the biggest manufacturer of shells in Europe. So if anyone needed shells, they’d be calling us.

    *in one project, they have the work for a handful of seat covers to a British firm. With a resultant price per seat….
    AIUI we already have the new shell factories in place - 300k-500k per annum capacity.

    And are we not purchasing something like 200 RCH-155?
    The shell factories are too small - that’s less than the monthly amount shot in Ukraine. Until they both ran low on shells…

    200 - maybe. And note we didn’t get a manufacturing facility. Because we politely added ourselves to the back of the queue. 72 will be delivered before 2030

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,257

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Its all going to kick off again isn't it?

    Talking about if Sydney Sweeney is hot or mid?
    My Twitter feed is inundated with pictures of her. 👍
    Mine too, horrible isn’t it?

    I think the general conclusion is that the actress is an attractive young lady.
    Busted. This means that the algorithm logged you lingering on the photo and zooming in on her nipples.
    You that like it’s a bad thing?

    (My instagram comprises reels of cute dogs)
    Bitches have lots more pairs of nipples.

    Just saying.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,325
    edited November 2
    moonshine said:

    Another thought: while the very depressing debate in these circumstances tends to focus on immigration, perhaps what I feel most strongly is that there is a growing sense of unease around public safety. Let’s leave aside ideology and nationality for a second. Do people feel more secure going about their daily business in this country than they did say 25-30 years ago? We have always had isolated incidents and attacks on the general public, but something does feel different at the moment.

    There are myriad reasons and causes, as is usual. But I do think that we need to look at policing, law and order and matters of security much more closely to try and address this. That is, of course, not something that changes overnight.

    Wronguns need to be excluded from society. And it starts with small crime, these mugs clearing the shelves at Greggs are adding to a downward spiral of lawlessness.
    I agree that we have found ourselves on a very slippery slope in recent years by seeing low-level crime or even anti-social behaviour failed to be tackled at a widespread level.

    It isn’t even about zero-tolerance necessarily, it’s just that if people don’t think these things are tackled or adequately discouraged then they start to lose confidence and a feeling of security.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,557

    Taz said:

    I see it COP30 this week in Brazil. There’s been little fanfare about it in the lead up to it. A few years ago it would have had significant coverage.

    Main countries aren’t bothering. Hard to see what it can achieve aside from the regular demand for ‘climate reparations’.

    And, yet, the problem is more serious than ever.

    It just goes to show how fickle and shallow much opinion is on this.
    Just look at Greta. Completely forgotten about climate change and wrapped herself in a Palestinian flag.
    Don’t make stuff up. I just looked at her Instagram. The majority of recent posts are about Sudan, while there are others about Palestine and about climate change.
    Sudan? So she's found a new bandwagon to jump on.
    She can’t win with you, can she? If she doesn’t say anything about Sudan, you’d accuse her of being too obsessed with Palestine and ignoring Sudan. If she does say something about Sudan, you accuse her of jumping on a bandwagon.
    She's supposed to be an "environmental campaigner".

    Neither Palestinian nor Sudan are part of that brief.

    What do you mean, “She's supposed to be an "environmental campaigner".”? She’s a private individual. She can do what she wants.
    I think people are just surprised that having staged a school strike for years over the Climate to draw public attention to an issue she felt was absolutely critical to our survival - and massively sidelined - she's now, when it has yet again taken a back seat, and progress has stalled, deciding to focus most of her energy on Gaza.

    Yes, she can do what she likes. Yes, you can find the odd post on Instagram that still mentions the climate but it makes some question whether what really drives her has changed.
    I'm concerned about climate change mostly because of the adverse effect it will have on people. It doesn't seem that much of a stretch to them be concerned about a war that has lead to do much civilian suffering.

    Of course it is ironic that this is an argument often used against acting on climate change - that we have more immediate problems to deal with.
    I think people simply suspect she's fallen in with a left-wing campaigning fraternity, with the supporters to follow, and her unique leadership has fallen away in the process.

    Some like that for that reason, others don't for precisely the same reason.
  • I see majorities of all voters for parties other than Conservatives want to be rid of Kemi. So, she is the one they fear most, and rightly so. I did not vote for Kemi to be leader, I knew she would face real Racism and real Sexism every day from those racist and sexist "anti-wacysts" and anti-sexists who throw both words around to dismiss their opponents. She has done a heck of a good job in the circumstances and if she wasn't doing one heck of a good job our opponents would not be so desperate to be rid of her.

    Those who aren't hearing Kemi aren't listening, at the moment that is their problem, not hers. She can't make them do that any more than two Estate Agents could when they begged the Chancellor to spend 10 minutes filling out a trivial Pro Forma. If neither the Chancellor nor her husband have the intellect to fill out a form which they mandate for all others how is in not malfeasance to allow either of them to serve the Government in a roll which pays more than the minimum wage ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,042
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Another thought: while the very depressing debate in these circumstances tends to focus on immigration, perhaps what I feel most strongly is that there is a growing sense of unease around public safety. Let’s leave aside ideology and nationality for a second. Do people feel more secure going about their daily business in this country than they did say 25-30 years ago? We have always had isolated incidents and attacks on the general public, but something does feel different at the moment.

    There are myriad reasons and causes, as is usual. But I do think that we need to look at policing, law and order and matters of security much more closely to try and address this. That is, of course, not something that changes overnight.

    Wronguns need to be excluded from society. And it starts with small crime, these mugs clearing the shelves at Greggs are adding to a downward spiral of lawlessness.
    By the way I am recently enthralled by a twitter account called Mike The Litterpicker, who is the opposite of the Greggs fiends.

    A retired chap who spends his days roaming the streets of Walsall, collecting litter, painting over graffiti and cleaning the street furniture.

    https://x.com/mike56200?s=21
    Has he been arrested for terrorism, yet?
  • boulay said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Tres said:

    This Vance Kirk things gonna lead to some cracking conspiracy theories.

    MAGA won't have any problems with it, even if there is more.
    JD Vance turned up to a Hallowe’en party dressed as a fat meme of himself.

    https://x.com/mtp4real/status/1984415019086561513

    Those who hate him, really hate that he has a sense of humour.
    I’m not a fan of his but it did amuse me when I saw it. In a weird way I think it’s a lot more dangerous to have someone like him in control where he has the wit and ability to mock himself than a humourless unfunny idiot as it shows an intelligence and awareness which idiots like Trump and other hard-men don’t have.
    I was so hopeful and almost inspired a little by Vance until I saw that incident in the Whitehouse with Zelensky, and he just looked like a combination of a dick and a bully. That's what we will get with Reform, maybe the only way to get things done is to get people like that to do things, but we end up with the other bits. Very much Team America sketch about three types of people stuff.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,257
    moonshine said:

    tlg86 said:

    Plod say 2 British black males been arrested on suspicion of murder, but nothing to suggest this was a terrorist incident. They are a 32-year-old male black British male and 35-year-old British national of Caribbean descent.

    I despair of this ‘not terror related’ stuff. It’s a mass stabbing. If it’s not terror related what is it?
    Whether it gets labelled terrorism or not, at some point they'll have to say whether this was an on-board incident that escalated or whether this was a premeditated attack.
    Well the knife didn't come from the buffet car.
    Buffet cars… my old grandad told me about those:

    https://vinepair.com/articles/british-rail-traveling-pub/
    Not to mention dining cars. With silver service. Happy memory of them in the 1960s, en route from Edinburgh to London behind a nice Deltic (Mum used to book lunch there to help break up the long journey for me, so she told me, and - I now suspect - give herself a treat.)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,304
    edited November 2
    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Well it turns out that the Ukranian attack on Tuapse Oil Terminal was worse than first thought.

    Not only is the terminal itself, one of only three in Russia and originator of $7bn/year in exports, completely destroyed, but two dodgy tankers that were on site are also still on fire.

    https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1984913621684494529

    Ukrainian intel is always spot on. Always manage to hit just when ships are loading oil/unloading weapons.
    While these sort of attacks are chicken soup for the soul, this is not by itself a game changer. This terminal exports around 7m mt of refined product per year out of around 150m mt total, with a fairly incidental secondary stream of crude. Refined products exports are only around a third of the Russian hydrocarbons total. And it will likely be online again in weeks to months. So a drop in the ocean.

    But what else is an ocean but a multitude of drops.
    But the scale of the attacks on these hydrocarbons facilities since early August 2025 IS a gamechanger. The lights are literally going out over Moscow. As well as pissing off the citizenry, previously told that Moscow was untouchable, these attacks are making it much harder for the Russian war machine to operate.

    Russia is trying to fix these facilities. But the companies that own them can neither source the parts (sometimes huge bits of refinery construction kit whose movement you can track from space), nor afford the interest rates on the finance to rebuild. And what was an occasional strike that allowed time to repair is now a missile slamming in every month, to every fortnight as Flamingo production ramps up from initially 30 a month to over 200 a month now. The "cope cages" that are being built around these facilities just can't cope with 1,000 kg of high explosives, where the charge is now being shaped to focus downwards.

    Russian refining capacity is down by as much as 30%. Even if not refined, the production of crude oil requires storage before it is sold. That storage is being hit too. As are the vessels that transport it. Plus the buyers are being scared off - both China and India are halting most of their purchases from Russia, fearing the fall out of sanctions. Sure, some of it will be sold to say Indonesia and refined there. But they will be the next level of sanctions.

    Russia is under the cosh, far more so now than Ukraine.
  • Two people remain in a life-threatening condition in hospital, police say

    The police said that while nine people were initially believed to have life-threatening injuries, following assessment and treatment four have been discharged but two people remain in a “life threatening condition”.

    Good news in that the scale is less than initially thought, with so many situations the number injured or dead increase.
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