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The Deputy Leadership proves a Bridget too far for Phillipson – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,751
edited 9:13AM in General
The Deputy Leadership proves a Bridget too far for Phillipson – politicalbetting.com

Very low turnout of 16% but clear win:Powell – 87,407Phillipson – 73,536

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034
    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352
    edited 9:19AM
    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,698
    Closer than I was expecting. A poor candidate wins.

    Continuity Sunak proceeds.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,310
    Congrats to Lucy. May the infelicities multiply
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,821

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Geoff Hoon do, to lead the pack?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,136
    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    It was some guy called Philip Bridgerson, according to LBC
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,272
    edited 9:26AM
    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,821
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets is this so far?

    Starmer isn’t working.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944
    Well, the turnout was abysmal...... maybe they should somehow identify 'still interested' voters ...... but Powell's 'victory' statement t seems reasonable.

    As does she.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,560
    That's an appalling turnout.

    It's like no one cares.

    Is Labour finished?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,272
    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Geoff Hoon do, to lead the pack?
    It was a strong field. Charles Clark deserves an honourable mention. As does the now Dame Jacqui Smith. She can join my current list too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,185
    Yawn.

    16% turnout? Even the Labour Party was yawning....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034
    edited 9:37AM
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    The media are already portraying this as a win for Burnham’s preferred candidate and a defeat for Starmer after Powell criticised his ‘unforced errors’.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/10/25/labour-deputy-leader-elected/

    It is a disastrous end to a terrible week for the PM, which saw his party come third in a by election in a Senedd seat which had always elected Labour candidates before and which saw a Find Out Now poll put Labour third behind not only Reform but even the Conservatives as well
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,185

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets is this so far?

    Starmer isn’t working.
    Steal the original for a poster - a line of Starmers disappearing off into the distance.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,272
    "I find it interesting Starmer has focussed heavily on Katie Lam’s repugnant comments in his speech."

    I don't. He's getting some sensible advice at last. His USP is now that of the leading three parties Labour are the anti racists. He just needs to keep on it. It's got Zack up to 16% with some polls.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,328
    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    Doesn't Labour have quite a lot of people (union members?) who are entitled to vote, but aren't necessarily that attached to the party?

    In terms of raw votes, 95 000 voted in the Kemi-Bob face-off. Bottom line is that membership of political parties with a whiff of power has fallen off a cliff. Which is one of the reasons they are so rubbish these days.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352

    Yawn.

    16% turnout? Even the Labour Party was yawning....

    Should we even mourn a party that dies without purpose or ideology?*

    * That probably applies to both Labour and the Conservatives.

    I am not sure I want to coalesce around Zach Student -Politics so (Sir)EdIsCrapIsPrimeMinister it is then.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944
    edited 9:40AM

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    Doesn't Labour have quite a lot of people (union members?) who are entitled to vote, but aren't necessarily that attached to the party?

    In terms of raw votes, 95 000 voted in the Kemi-Bob face-off. Bottom line is that membership of political parties with a whiff of power has fallen off a cliff. Which is one of the reasons they are so rubbish these days.
    What's Plaid Cymru's membership?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034
    edited 9:41AM
    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    For context both Powell and Phillipson got fewer votes than Starmer and Long Bailey had in 2020 and fewer votes combined than Starmer got then. Philipson even got fewer votes than Lisa Nancy did then
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352
    edited 9:45AM
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,560
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    For context both Powell and Phillipson got fewer votes than Starmer and Long Bailey had in 2020 and fewer votes combined than Starmer got then. Philipson even got fewer votes than Lisa Nancy did then
    Union members get a vote iirc.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    Doesn't Labour have quite a lot of people (union members?) who are entitled to vote, but aren't necessarily that attached to the party?

    In terms of raw votes, 95 000 voted in the Kemi-Bob face-off. Bottom line is that membership of political parties with a whiff of power has fallen off a cliff. Which is one of the reasons they are so rubbish these days.
    The Greens and Reform now claim they have more members than the Conservatives and LDs and on this showing more active members than Labour too at present I expect.

    Although Corbyn Labour had a huge membership and still lost two general elections as centrist swing voters couldn’t stand them
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,201
    Any ideas why the turnout was so low? Few people care who becomes Deputy Leader? More people care but don't care for the options offered?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,328
    edited 9:49AM

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    Doesn't Labour have quite a lot of people (union members?) who are entitled to vote, but aren't necessarily that attached to the party?

    In terms of raw votes, 95 000 voted in the Kemi-Bob face-off. Bottom line is that membership of political parties with a whiff of power has fallen off a cliff. Which is one of the reasons they are so rubbish these days.
    What's Plaid Cymru's membership?
    Wikipedia says about 10k, so equivalent to 200k UK-wide.

    Let's see what happens when they have to run something.

    While I'm at it, the recent Green party leadership election had a tadge under 25k votes, and RefUK have a one man, one vote system.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,822
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    For context both Powell and Phillipson got fewer votes than Starmer and Long Bailey had in 2020 and fewer votes combined than Starmer got then. Philipson even got fewer votes than Lisa Nancy did then
    Given the recent Labour Party events, just looked up "Our Friends in the North" to see there might be a Netflix or Amazon rehash due soon. Perhaps with a Bond theme.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Friends_in_the_North
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352
    edited 9:51AM
    AnneJGP said:

    Any ideas why the turnout was so low? Few people care who becomes Deputy Leader? More people care but don't care for the options offered?

    The excuses would probably be; the role is unimportant, voting Powell and not voting at all was a snub to Starmer, Andy Burnham gets his way (occasionally). The alternative view is that without Wilson or Blair Labour couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,272

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Lucy Powell do? I think she's OK. A great opportunity for a Starmer reset. A compassionate Starmer is what's needed. Lets see more of the the human rights lawyer and less of the Trump sycophant.

    I think he was entitled to a year and a half to find himself but now's the time to show what he's really like. He could do worse than folow the Mamdani playbook..
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352
    edited 9:55AM
    Roger said:

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Lucy Powell do? I think she's OK. A great opportunity for a Starmer reset. A compassionate Starmer is what's needed. Lets see more of the the human rights lawyer and less of the Trump sycophant.

    I think he was entitled to a year and a half to find himself but now's the time to show what he's really like. He could do worse than folow the Mamdani playbook..
    Her track record is appalling. Even Starmer thought she was too shite for his chaotic Cabinet.

    Surely it is now not a case of if Starmer falls, but when, and what no hoper replaces him. There seems to be plenty of left wing Trusses and Sunaks to throw their useless hats into the ring, but no pre-Iraq Tony Blairs.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034
    Roger said:

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Lucy Powell do? I think she's OK. A great opportunity for a Starmer reset. A compassionate Starmer is what's needed. Lets see more of the the human rights lawyer and less of the Trump sycophant.

    I think he was entitled to a year and a half to find himself but now's the time to show what he's really like. He could do worse than folow the Mamdani playbook..
    The Mamdani playbook may revive Labour in the inner cities and university linked towns where it has been leaking votes to the Greens and Plaid. It certainly won’t in the red wall and seaside towns it has lost to Reform
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Lucy Powell do? I think she's OK. A great opportunity for a Starmer reset. A compassionate Starmer is what's needed. Lets see more of the the human rights lawyer and less of the Trump sycophant.

    I think he was entitled to a year and a half to find himself but now's the time to show what he's really like. He could do worse than folow the Mamdani playbook..
    The Mamdani playbook may revive Labour in the inner cities and university linked towns where it has been leaking votes to the Greens and Plaid. It certainly won’t in the red wall and seaside towns it has lost to Reform
    A revival anywhere would be welcomed in Labour circles I would have thought. Universal contempt spells oblivion. Just ask the Tories.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,201

    AnneJGP said:

    Any ideas why the turnout was so low? Few people care who becomes Deputy Leader? More people care but don't care for the options offered?

    The excuses would probably be; the role is unimportant, voting Powell and not voting at all was a snub to Starmer, Andy Burnham gets his way (occasionally). The alternative view is that without Wilson or Blair Labour couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.
    Maybe. But until I read the comments, I'd forgotten members of affiliated TUs get a vote. That would mean a lot of lack of interest.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,459
    AnneJGP said:

    Any ideas why the turnout was so low? Few people care who becomes Deputy Leader? More people care but don't care for the options offered?

    Somebody who I know that knows the Labour Party very well has contacted me to make this very same point.

    I'm surprised that the Labour Party have not published the turnout and vote share of its actual members in the Deputy Leadership election.

    Senior political journalists left to post only the "16% turnout" when actual member turnout might be 3x? that figure...


    https://x.com/DamianSurvation/status/1982022897121042705
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,201

    AnneJGP said:

    Any ideas why the turnout was so low? Few people care who becomes Deputy Leader? More people care but don't care for the options offered?

    Somebody who I know that knows the Labour Party very well has contacted me to make this very same point.

    I'm surprised that the Labour Party have not published the turnout and vote share of its actual members in the Deputy Leadership election.

    Senior political journalists left to post only the "16% turnout" when actual member turnout might be 3x? that figure...


    https://x.com/DamianSurvation/status/1982022897121042705
    Thank you, I was just going to ask that question.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034
    edited 10:01AM

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,105
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    I expect the median voter will vote for whichever candidate will beat Reform.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    Doesn't Labour have quite a lot of people (union members?) who are entitled to vote, but aren't necessarily that attached to the party?

    In terms of raw votes, 95 000 voted in the Kemi-Bob face-off. Bottom line is that membership of political parties with a whiff of power has fallen off a cliff. Which is one of the reasons they are so rubbish these days.
    What's Plaid Cymru's membership?
    Wikipedia says about 10k, so equivalent to 200k UK-wide.

    Let's see what happens when they have to run something.

    While I'm at it, the recent Green party leadership election had a tadge under 25k votes, and RefUK have a one man, one vote system.
    Thanks, should have looked. To much happening here, or was.

    Anyway, so given that Wales has about 3m inhabitants, so 10k out of 3m is 0.3% Quite reasonable. And I think they do control a couple of County Councils..... Carmarthen, Gwynedd and Ynys Mon I think. IIRC Carmarthen has had it's share of 'stories' but the others have no more operational problems than anywhere else and less than some.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,352
    edited 10:04AM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,698

    Roger said:

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Lucy Powell do? I think she's OK. A great opportunity for a Starmer reset. A compassionate Starmer is what's needed. Lets see more of the the human rights lawyer and less of the Trump sycophant.

    I think he was entitled to a year and a half to find himself but now's the time to show what he's really like. He could do worse than folow the Mamdani playbook..
    Her track record is appalling. Even Starmer thought she was too shite for his chaotic Cabinet.

    Surely it is now not a case of if Starmer falls, but when, and what no hoper replaces him. There seems to be plenty of left wing Trusses and Sunaks to throw their useless hats into the ring, but no pre-Iraq Tony Blairs.
    Jedward Miliband or our Ange would be favourites. A bit like Truss replacing Bozo.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Not after his appearance at the Covid (Education) Inquiry earlier this week. Scruffy, disorganised and forgetful, and a dreadful blame-shifter.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,310
    edited 10:14AM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    Almost certainly not. On the traditional left-right axis, they are likely a lib dem or a left-wing Tory.

    On cultural politics, perhaps Reform (but more likely Conservative) - particularly on migration. On economics/fiscal, possibly even as left as Labour.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,452
    Taz said:

    Closer than I was expecting. A poor candidate wins.

    Continuity Sunak proceeds.

    If only.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Not after his appearance at the Covid (Education) Inquiry earlier this week. Scruffy, disorganised and forgetful, and a dreadful blame-shifter.
    So exactly as we always remember him.
    To be honest I thought he'd deteriorated!

    But I was never a fan, so my opinion may be biased.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,310

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Still quite a lot of Labour support to squeeze there too. It's not like 100% of their voters went Plaid.

    It certainly upends the narrative that high turnout = Reform landslide. It looks like there is an opposite and equal reaction in that scenario.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944
    Eabhal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Still quite a lot of Labour support to squeeze there too. It's not like 100% of their voters went Plaid.

    It certainly upends the narrative that high turnout = Reform landslide. It looks like there is an opposite and equal reaction in that scenario.
    Is South Wales directly comparable with NE or NW England? I doubt it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,452
    Fishing said:

    OK, as nothing too world-shaking is happening today, here is a list of my ten biggest recent wrong political predictions, in no particular order:

    1. Remain would edge the referendum
    2. the current government would get a 6 month-1 year honeymoon in the polls
    3. we'd have got rid of Northern Ireland by now
    4. Kamala 24 by the narrowest of margins
    5. Boris would last a full term
    6. the Ukraine war would be over by now
    7. UK GE 2024 vote shares. I got the margin between Lab and Con almost exactly right, but grossly overestimated the proportion of the vote the top two would get and underestimated Reform's share. I got the GE 2019 shares pretty accurate though.
    8. Truss would be more competent than she was
    9. Cameron would win an absolute majority in 2010 (I remember meeting Kwasi Kwarteng just before the election and telling him that. He disagreed with me and turned out to be right)
    10. Labour would be the largest party in a hung Parliament in 2015

    I find auditing oneself in this way a good means of curbing the arrogance that can build up if you only remember your triumphs. I don't think there's a common thread there, and I've made plenty of accurate predictions to offset against them, but that's why, though I post on this site from time to time, I don't engage in the activity from which it gets its name ...

    Don't worry, we've all got plenty of things wrong.

    I thought a hung parliament in 2015, Remain edging a win and Theresa May grabbing a landslide - all amongst my biggest bloopers.

    And that's before we get started on my disastrous record on US politics.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,328

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Not after his appearance at the Covid (Education) Inquiry earlier this week. Scruffy, disorganised and forgetful, and a dreadful blame-shifter.
    So exactly as we always remember him.
    My impression was worse than then. The last few years haven't been kind to his body.

    For a long time, the scruffbag shtick was part of his appeal- it signalled a lack of pomposity, and that can be attractive. It grated a bit when he was PM- you are the country's first citizen, show yourself and your country and your voters some respect, dammit. Now, he just looks and sounds decrepit.

    I think it's the hair loss. It comes for many of us, but the last man to build so much of their brand out of their barnet was Samson.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,452

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    We should avoid reading too much into Caerphilly; there were two anti-establishment parties on offer, and the centre-right constituency was modest.

    But I agree, they could underperform UNS if they are seen as too marmite by the election.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,310
    edited 10:22AM

    Eabhal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Still quite a lot of Labour support to squeeze there too. It's not like 100% of their voters went Plaid.

    It certainly upends the narrative that high turnout = Reform landslide. It looks like there is an opposite and equal reaction in that scenario.
    Is South Wales directly comparable with NE or NW England? I doubt it.
    Well, from a post-industrial deprivation POV - yes?

    As a proxy indicator, the 57% for Leave in Caerphilly is very similar to Brexit voting parts of the NW and NE (e.g. Durham, around Manchester etc). If Reform can't win there then they are restricted to places like Teesside, Essex etc

    The difference is in Wales there is a credible left-wing alternative - Plaid.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,452
    Roger said:

    "I find it interesting Starmer has focussed heavily on Katie Lam’s repugnant comments in his speech."

    I don't. He's getting some sensible advice at last. His USP is now that of the leading three parties Labour are the anti racists. He just needs to keep on it. It's got Zack up to 16% with some polls.

    Starmer acts on the advice of the last person he's spoken to.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034
    edited 10:24AM

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Caerphilly is a left leaning constituency though, it even voted for Jeremy Corbyn and Labour in 2019 when they lost the UK general election by a landslide.

    As long as Farage wins most of the seats Boris won in 2019 he will likely still be PM and unless voters are willing to tactically vote for Labour to beat Reform not just Plaid and the LDs that will remain the case
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,400
    Good morning everyone.

    Saturday obscurities of questionable value.

    The population ratios of E:S:W:Ni are close to 28:3:2:1.

    (That overestimates S and W a little, but is near enough.)
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 972
    Ireland Presidential

    If not already posted:

    https://www.rte.ie/player/onnow/66546216066

    https://www.rte.ie/news/presidential-election/2025/1025/1540513-presidential-count/

    https://www.rte.ie/news/presidential-election/results/#/national

    No official results expected until the afternoon but tallies so far indicate an overwhelming victory for Catherine Connolly and a large number of spoiled ballots.

    Dutch election is Wednesday and that should be it for the 2025 season, at least all the ones I'm following :smile:

    Thanks & hope everyone is keeping well,

    DC
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,328

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    We should avoid reading too much into Caerphilly; there were two anti-establishment parties on offer, and the centre-right constituency was modest.

    But I agree, they could underperform UNS if they are seen as too marmite by the election.
    See also Corbyn 2017. Elections, especially in FPTP, are only partially about maximising your support. They are also about minimising your opposition.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,400
    edited 10:32AM
    So is Lucy Powell the inevitable expected winner? I assume she will be focusing on "representing the membership".

    I'm not sure how helpful the turnout figure is given the varied electorate, unless for comparison with itself.

    I was in a TU for years and years, but viewed its usefulness as inversely proportional to the explicit political positions it took, and it all went a bit downhill after a mega-merger.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034
    edited 10:30AM

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    The modal voter, yes.

    The median voter is someone between the very left of the Conservatives and the right of the Lib Dems. Like always.

    (Doesn't mean that position is popular or correct, but it is where the median nearly always is.)
    It was but now if on economic terms you put the Tories right of Reform then the median voter probably is voting Reform, certainly in England with Labour just behind.

    In cultural terms if you put Reform to the right of the Tories, then the median voter is perhaps voting Tory but with Reform just behind
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,014
    edited 10:30AM

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets is this so far?

    Starmer isn’t working.
    Steal the original for a poster - a line of Starmers disappearing off into the distance.
    An updated version would be a conversation with an IT help desk.

    "My Government's not working."

    "Have you tried switching it on and off again to reboot?"

    "Yes 50 times, it hasn't improved."
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,400
    edited 10:31AM

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Nice to see you around Richard.

    What do they think about Rufford Ford down your way? And how are you finding your local Reform UK Councillors?

    (I'm no fan, especially of the £75k official Council budget for flag-wagging, but they seem to me to be on 2 out of 10 rather than Kent's 0.5 out of 10.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    A MiC poll in May had a Johnson led Conservatives again on 26% to 22% for Farage led Reform and 21% for Labour
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,964
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    The modal voter, yes.

    The median voter is someone between the very left of the Conservatives and the right of the Lib Dems. Like always.

    (Doesn't mean that position is popular or correct, but it is where the median nearly always is.)
    It was but now if on economic terms you put the Tories right of Reform then the median voter probably is voting Reform, certainly in England with Labour just behind.

    In cultural terms if you put Reform to the right of the Tories, then the median voter is perhaps voting Tory but with Reform just behind
    Median implied some kind of scale. I think modal would be better.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,961
    Morning PB - Did I see a thread on Friday morning where TSE was attempting to spin Labour losing a seat they've heald for a Century as being good news for Starmer? 😂😂😂
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,494

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Being the most loved and most hated worked for Mrs Thatcher.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,838

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    The modal voter, yes.

    The median voter is someone between the very left of the Conservatives and the right of the Lib Dems. Like always.

    (Doesn't mean that position is popular or correct, but it is where the median nearly always is.)
    It was but now if on economic terms you put the Tories right of Reform then the median voter probably is voting Reform, certainly in England with Labour just behind.

    In cultural terms if you put Reform to the right of the Tories, then the median voter is perhaps voting Tory but with Reform just behind
    Median implied some kind of scale. I think modal would be better.
    What does the mean voter mean?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,034

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Being the most loved and most hated worked for Mrs Thatcher.
    Against a deeply unpopular Labour government in 1979, a hard left leader of the opposition in 1983 and an opposition divided between Labour and the SDP Alliance in 1983 and 1987.

    Kinnock would probably have beaten Thatcher in 1992 though, only the more centrist Major got the Conservatives the win in 1992 having also scrapped Thatcher’s poll tax
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    The modal voter, yes.

    The median voter is someone between the very left of the Conservatives and the right of the Lib Dems. Like always.

    (Doesn't mean that position is popular or correct, but it is where the median nearly always is.)
    It was but now if on economic terms you put the Tories right of Reform then the median voter probably is voting Reform, certainly in England with Labour just behind.

    In cultural terms if you put Reform to the right of the Tories, then the median voter is perhaps voting Tory but with Reform just behind
    Median implied some kind of scale. I think modal would be better.
    What does the mean voter mean?
    Ones that don't buy their round.
    So vote for Boris?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    A MiC poll in May had a Johnson led Conservatives again on 26% to 22% for Farage led Reform and 21% for Labour
    Ah a 'what if' poll. If you still take notice of them I don't know what to tell you. Johnson might be the best hope the Cons have but any intial boost wouldn't last long. He couldn't really hack it four years ago and to all appearances he has deteriorated further since then. Johnson in a debate with Farage would be fun - for those wh aren''t fans of the ex-PM.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,915

    Fishing said:

    OK, as nothing too world-shaking is happening today, here is a list of my ten biggest recent wrong political predictions, in no particular order:

    1. Remain would edge the referendum
    2. the current government would get a 6 month-1 year honeymoon in the polls
    3. we'd have got rid of Northern Ireland by now
    4. Kamala 24 by the narrowest of margins
    5. Boris would last a full term
    6. the Ukraine war would be over by now
    7. UK GE 2024 vote shares. I got the margin between Lab and Con almost exactly right, but grossly overestimated the proportion of the vote the top two would get and underestimated Reform's share. I got the GE 2019 shares pretty accurate though.
    8. Truss would be more competent than she was
    9. Cameron would win an absolute majority in 2010 (I remember meeting Kwasi Kwarteng just before the election and telling him that. He disagreed with me and turned out to be right)
    10. Labour would be the largest party in a hung Parliament in 2015

    I find auditing oneself in this way a good means of curbing the arrogance that can build up if you only remember your triumphs. I don't think there's a common thread there, and I've made plenty of accurate predictions to offset against them, but that's why, though I post on this site from time to time, I don't engage in the activity from which it gets its name ...

    Don't worry, we've all got plenty of things wrong.
    Yes and you may realise that but it's amazing how many people don't. I have been on this site, which has more than your average level of sophistication, long enough to remember how many people make two fundamental errors over and over again: thinking that current trends will continue into the medium term and thinking that how things appear to them is how they objectively are.

    I remember the number of people posting on here in 2006-7 that the Conservatives would never win again, and similarly in 2020 how the Conservatives would dominate until at least 2030. Perhaps I was lucky to learn a lesson early on - I had a friend who is one of those people who expresses everything with 110% certainty and never acknowledges another's opinion or any shades of grey. In 1990 I bet him £50 that Gulf War One would last less than a year. He thought it would last two. But it was the arrogance that he, knowing nothing about NATO weapons or anything boring like that, showed, that convinced me that, while I could be wrong, I would be more likely to be on the right side of that bet. Remembering how cocksure he was is always a good way to recall how uncertain the future is.

    Come to think of it, he never paid up.

    With interest, he probably owes me his pension by now ...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,400
    edited 10:47AM

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Not after his appearance at the Covid (Education) Inquiry earlier this week. Scruffy, disorganised and forgetful, and a dreadful blame-shifter.
    So exactly as we always remember him.
    My impression was worse than then. The last few years haven't been kind to his body.

    For a long time, the scruffbag shtick was part of his appeal- it signalled a lack of pomposity, and that can be attractive. It grated a bit when he was PM- you are the country's first citizen, show yourself and your country and your voters some respect, dammit. Now, he just looks and sounds decrepit.

    I think it's the hair loss. It comes for many of us, but the last man to build so much of their brand out of their barnet was Samson.
    That reminds me of Ed Davey and his hair loss - he had a notably extended forehead even at school, when he was about 10 or 12. Shaving it bald has comething to be said for it in image terms for men.

    I had an interesting little conversation at the blood clinic yesterday with a 36 year old orderly, who went from talking about addresses to "why don't you have a local accent?", and I was explaining that I go back here longer than Agent Anderson. We were chatting about how private schools devastate local accents (imagine Davey saying "Eeeyup Duck") and it turned out he lived just around the corner from where Davey lived when young (aged under 5).

    Clearly quite knowledgeable as he recalled Lord Frost (aka Frosty the "No" Man), who was at the same school around the same time. David Frost is really quite obscure these days.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,265

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Being the most loved and most hated worked for Mrs Thatcher.
    Having liked Richard's post I thought yours a very good response, but in those days we were in 2 party territory with each having a significant percentage of the vote. Now we have 4 or 5 parties who can gang up on Reform. A bit like squeezing the Liberals of the past but on steroids.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,136

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    Voters who don't want an arse certainly won't be wishing for the return of the a***hole.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,059
    Turnout of 16% would suggest just over 1 million were entitled to vote.

    I thought membership was circa 300k so presumably 700k union votes.

    Any tally on spoilt ballots?

    From my experience usually a few funny comments
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,252

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    The modal voter, yes.

    The median voter is someone between the very left of the Conservatives and the right of the Lib Dems. Like always.

    (Doesn't mean that position is popular or correct, but it is where the median nearly always is.)
    It was but now if on economic terms you put the Tories right of Reform then the median voter probably is voting Reform, certainly in England with Labour just behind.

    In cultural terms if you put Reform to the right of the Tories, then the median voter is perhaps voting Tory but with Reform just behind
    Median implied some kind of scale. I think modal would be better.
    What does the mean voter mean?
    Voter ID is a nominal scale - it cannot have an arithmetic mean.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,059

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Being the most loved and most hated worked for Mrs Thatcher.
    Not so much for Jezza
  • OT - HYUFD is right on this! A pretty terrible result for SKS. The turnout shows just how unappy even Lab members are. It also puts the Lab members happy to follow the party line at under 10%. These people won't be campaigning for him. Powell was seen by some as an 'opposition' candidate but tried not to be overt about it. I suspect if she had been she would have won by a lot more.

    It seems alienating your own supporters while doing nothing meaningful to win over anyone else isn't a winning strategy. However, after Sunak, didn't everyone know that anyway...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,059

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Geoff Hoon do, to lead the pack?
    I met him at the candy store
    He turned around and smiled at me
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,492
    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    The unions evidently thought neither candidate worthy of a preference.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,400
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Being the most loved and most hated worked for Mrs Thatcher.
    Against a deeply unpopular Labour government in 1979, a hard left leader of the opposition in 1983 and an opposition divided between Labour and the SDP Alliance in 1983 and 1987.

    Kinnock would probably have beaten Thatcher in 1992 though, only the more centrist Major got the Conservatives the win in 1992 having also scrapped Thatcher’s poll tax
    Was Major perceived as centrist compared to Mrs Thatcher in 1992?

    Checking, the last round of voting when he became leader was between Michael Heseltine, Douglas Hurd, and John Major.

    Of those three was John Major not the "not wet" one on the Right, being iirc the Chief Secretary to the Treasury?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Conservative_Party_leadership_election
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,452
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    OK, as nothing too world-shaking is happening today, here is a list of my ten biggest recent wrong political predictions, in no particular order:

    1. Remain would edge the referendum
    2. the current government would get a 6 month-1 year honeymoon in the polls
    3. we'd have got rid of Northern Ireland by now
    4. Kamala 24 by the narrowest of margins
    5. Boris would last a full term
    6. the Ukraine war would be over by now
    7. UK GE 2024 vote shares. I got the margin between Lab and Con almost exactly right, but grossly overestimated the proportion of the vote the top two would get and underestimated Reform's share. I got the GE 2019 shares pretty accurate though.
    8. Truss would be more competent than she was
    9. Cameron would win an absolute majority in 2010 (I remember meeting Kwasi Kwarteng just before the election and telling him that. He disagreed with me and turned out to be right)
    10. Labour would be the largest party in a hung Parliament in 2015

    I find auditing oneself in this way a good means of curbing the arrogance that can build up if you only remember your triumphs. I don't think there's a common thread there, and I've made plenty of accurate predictions to offset against them, but that's why, though I post on this site from time to time, I don't engage in the activity from which it gets its name ...

    Don't worry, we've all got plenty of things wrong.
    Yes and you may realise that but it's amazing how many people don't. I have been on this site, which has more than your average level of sophistication, long enough to remember how many people make two fundamental errors over and over again: thinking that current trends will continue into the medium term and thinking that how things appear to them is how they objectively are.

    I remember the number of people posting on here in 2006-7 that the Conservatives would never win again, and similarly in 2020 how the Conservatives would dominate until at least 2030. Perhaps I was lucky to learn a lesson early on - I had a friend who is one of those people who expresses everything with 110% certainty and never acknowledges another's opinion or any shades of grey. In 1990 I bet him £50 that Gulf War One would last less than a year. He thought it would last two. But it was the arrogance that he, knowing nothing about NATO weapons or anything boring like that, showed, that convinced me that, while I could be wrong, I would be more likely to be on the right side of that bet. Remembering how cocksure he was is always a good way to recall how uncertain the future is.

    Come to think of it, he never paid up.

    With interest, he probably owes me his pension by now ...
    That's the thing, good gamblers don't actually need to know very much at all, and are comfortably regularly changing their mind.

    People expect them to be fortune-tellers, and right every time, but it's actually about knowing who and what to listen to and being good at calculating risk.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,105
    edited 11:01AM

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    Doesn't Labour have quite a lot of people (union members?) who are entitled to vote, but aren't necessarily that attached to the party?

    In terms of raw votes, 95 000 voted in the Kemi-Bob face-off. Bottom line is that membership of political parties with a whiff of power has fallen off a cliff. Which is one of the reasons they are so rubbish these days.
    What's Plaid Cymru's membership?
    Wikipedia says about 10k, so equivalent to 200k UK-wide.

    Let's see what happens when they have to run something.

    While I'm at it, the recent Green party leadership election had a tadge under 25k votes, and RefUK have a one man, one vote system.
    Thanks, should have looked. To much happening here, or was.

    Anyway, so given that Wales has about 3m inhabitants, so 10k out of 3m is 0.3% Quite reasonable. And I think they do control a couple of County Councils..... Carmarthen, Gwynedd and Ynys Mon I think. IIRC Carmarthen has had it's share of 'stories' but the others have no more operational problems than anywhere else and less than some.
    For comparison SNP has about 55K members IIRC out of 5.5m population = order of 1% or equivalent to 0.6m UK wide. Sounds quite a decent effort by PC as they aren't so established.

    Caveat: some members will be living furth of Scotland and Wales, but of course that also applies to Tories etc outside the UK.
  • dunhamdunham Posts: 43
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Caerphilly is a left leaning constituency though, it even voted for Jeremy Corbyn and Labour in 2019 when they lost the UK general election by a landslide.

    As long as Farage wins most of the seats Boris won in 2019 he will likely still be PM and unless voters are willing to tactically vote for Labour to beat Reform not just Plaid and the LDs that will remain the case
    In the vast majority of provincial non-metropolitan England, apart from areas south and west of London where the LDs are strong, Reform don't face competetion from anyone other than Conservative or Labour, parties tainted by recent or current government incompetence. This large swathe of England is where Reform is likely to sweep the board at the next GE and become at least the largest UK party in seat numbers.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944
    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Being the most loved and most hated worked for Mrs Thatcher.
    Against a deeply unpopular Labour government in 1979, a hard left leader of the opposition in 1983 and an opposition divided between Labour and the SDP Alliance in 1983 and 1987.

    Kinnock would probably have beaten Thatcher in 1992 though, only the more centrist Major got the Conservatives the win in 1992 having also scrapped Thatcher’s poll tax
    Was Major perceived as centrist compared to Mrs Thatcher in 1992?

    Checking, the last round of voting when he became leader was between Michael Heseltine, Douglas Hurd, and John Major.

    Of those three was John Major not the "not wet" one on the Right, being iirc the Chief Secretary to the Treasury?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Conservative_Party_leadership_election
    Mrs Thatcher became divisive after about 1984/5. Before that she no more or less thought of than any other party leader. Callaghan's Government was 'deeply unpopular' in 1979; it was unpopular but it wasn't, quite frankly, as 'unpopular' as a year or so earlier.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,400
    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    Doesn't Labour have quite a lot of people (union members?) who are entitled to vote, but aren't necessarily that attached to the party?

    In terms of raw votes, 95 000 voted in the Kemi-Bob face-off. Bottom line is that membership of political parties with a whiff of power has fallen off a cliff. Which is one of the reasons they are so rubbish these days.
    What's Plaid Cymru's membership?
    Wikipedia says about 10k, so equivalent to 200k UK-wide.

    Let's see what happens when they have to run something.

    While I'm at it, the recent Green party leadership election had a tadge under 25k votes, and RefUK have a one man, one vote system.
    Thanks, should have looked. To much happening here, or was.

    Anyway, so given that Wales has about 3m inhabitants, so 10k out of 3m is 0.3% Quite reasonable. And I think they do control a couple of County Councils..... Carmarthen, Gwynedd and Ynys Mon I think. IIRC Carmarthen has had it's share of 'stories' but the others have no more operational problems than anywhere else and less than some.
    For comparison SNP has about 55K members IIRC out of 5.5m population = order of 1% or equivalent to 0.6m UK wide. Sounds quite a decent effort by PC as they aren't so established.

    Caveat: some members will be living furth of Scotland and Wales, but of course that also applies to Tories etc outside the UK.
    It's worth a note that that is perhaps close to SNP core - it peaked at 125k.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,105
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    If the turnout is 16% and 160,000 voted doesn't that suggest a membership of close to a million?

    Doesn't Labour have quite a lot of people (union members?) who are entitled to vote, but aren't necessarily that attached to the party?

    In terms of raw votes, 95 000 voted in the Kemi-Bob face-off. Bottom line is that membership of political parties with a whiff of power has fallen off a cliff. Which is one of the reasons they are so rubbish these days.
    What's Plaid Cymru's membership?
    Wikipedia says about 10k, so equivalent to 200k UK-wide.

    Let's see what happens when they have to run something.

    While I'm at it, the recent Green party leadership election had a tadge under 25k votes, and RefUK have a one man, one vote system.
    Thanks, should have looked. To much happening here, or was.

    Anyway, so given that Wales has about 3m inhabitants, so 10k out of 3m is 0.3% Quite reasonable. And I think they do control a couple of County Councils..... Carmarthen, Gwynedd and Ynys Mon I think. IIRC Carmarthen has had it's share of 'stories' but the others have no more operational problems than anywhere else and less than some.
    For comparison SNP has about 55K members IIRC out of 5.5m population = order of 1% or equivalent to 0.6m UK wide. Sounds quite a decent effort by PC as they aren't so established.

    Caveat: some members will be living furth of Scotland and Wales, but of course that also applies to Tories etc outside the UK.
    It's worth a note that that is perhaps close to SNP core - it peaked at 125k.
    Oh yes. That would be the referendum and its aftermath.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,655
    @jakemgrumbach.bsky.social‬

    A very offline cousin sent this to fam group chat. This story is breaking containment.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jakemgrumbach.bsky.social/post/3m3y25alw5c2l
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,622

    Yawn.

    16% turnout? Even the Labour Party was yawning....

    Should we even mourn a party that dies without purpose or ideology?*

    * That probably applies to both Labour and the Conservatives.

    I am not sure I want to coalesce around Zach Student -Politics so (Sir)EdIsCrapIsPrimeMinister it is then.
    Zack, not Zach. (Although he grew up as David.)
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,139

    Turnout of 16% would suggest just over 1 million were entitled to vote.

    I thought membership was circa 300k so presumably 700k union votes.

    Any tally on spoilt ballots?

    From my experience usually a few funny comments

    I almost forgot to vote and I suspect my wife did forget! Neither candidate was very exciting.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,719

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Yes. The possibilities are huge, unpredictable and geographically variable.

    In Scotland and Wales, with Lab and Con out of fashion, if you assume that (mostly) the LDs are not a prime position option, then it's easy: to vote against Reform - you vote SNP/PC. This is obvs what happened on Thursday.

    The complicated bit is England. In about 100 seats you vote LD; simple. In the rest, to vote against Reform is extremely tricky. Is the Tory option simply Reformlite, or an alternative? Probably the former. How do you vote against Reform in a seat the LDs have never challenged in, the Tories are Reformlite and you don't like the government, Labour are in most places the incumbent, and you think the Greens are no better than Trotsky?

    This will take some time for the pieces to fall into place. Either they fall in fragments and Reform can win with 30%; or momentum happens either towards one party (no obvious candidate) or an unacknowledged alliance of LD, Lab, Green with mass tactical voting.

    My seat - Penrith and Solway is a lovely example. Currently Labour, huge notional swing, new boundaries, probably Toryish in normal times and would have been Tory before 2024, absolute Reform territory, LDs nowhere, Greens out of sight. Reform currently projected to win.

    Where does the vote go of those who intensely dislike this government and Reform?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    To an extent you have me there. But I would equally assume given the choice of Johnson or Brave Sir Nigel, Farage takes it by a country mile.

    Caerphilly might question your Reform voting logic.
    Caerphilly was fascinating. It does completely change the Reform narrative in my mind. Being the most popular party might turn out to be meaningless if you are also the most hated party. And Reform certainly sit in that strange spot in the political Venn Diagram right now.
    Being the most loved and most hated worked for Mrs Thatcher.
    Against a deeply unpopular Labour government in 1979, a hard left leader of the opposition in 1983 and an opposition divided between Labour and the SDP Alliance in 1983 and 1987.

    Kinnock would probably have beaten Thatcher in 1992 though, only the more centrist Major got the Conservatives the win in 1992 having also scrapped Thatcher’s poll tax
    Was Major perceived as centrist compared to Mrs Thatcher in 1992?

    Checking, the last round of voting when he became leader was between Michael Heseltine, Douglas Hurd, and John Major.

    Of those three was John Major not the "not wet" one on the Right, being iirc the Chief Secretary to the Treasury?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Conservative_Party_leadership_election
    Mrs Thatcher became divisive after about 1984/5. Before that she no more or less thought of than any other party leader. Callaghan's Government was 'deeply unpopular' in 1979; it was unpopular but it wasn't, quite frankly, as 'unpopular' as a year or so earlier.
    Sorry; should read 'Callaghan's Government wasn't 'deeply unpopular' in 1979
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,492
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    OK, as nothing too world-shaking is happening today, here is a list of my ten biggest recent wrong political predictions, in no particular order:

    1. Remain would edge the referendum
    2. the current government would get a 6 month-1 year honeymoon in the polls
    3. we'd have got rid of Northern Ireland by now
    4. Kamala 24 by the narrowest of margins
    5. Boris would last a full term
    6. the Ukraine war would be over by now
    7. UK GE 2024 vote shares. I got the margin between Lab and Con almost exactly right, but grossly overestimated the proportion of the vote the top two would get and underestimated Reform's share. I got the GE 2019 shares pretty accurate though.
    8. Truss would be more competent than she was
    9. Cameron would win an absolute majority in 2010 (I remember meeting Kwasi Kwarteng just before the election and telling him that. He disagreed with me and turned out to be right)
    10. Labour would be the largest party in a hung Parliament in 2015

    I find auditing oneself in this way a good means of curbing the arrogance that can build up if you only remember your triumphs. I don't think there's a common thread there, and I've made plenty of accurate predictions to offset against them, but that's why, though I post on this site from time to time, I don't engage in the activity from which it gets its name ...

    Don't worry, we've all got plenty of things wrong.
    Yes and you may realise that but it's amazing how many people don't. I have been on this site, which has more than your average level of sophistication, long enough to remember how many people make two fundamental errors over and over again: thinking that current trends will continue into the medium term and thinking that how things appear to them is how they objectively are.

    I remember the number of people posting on here in 2006-7 that the Conservatives would never win again, and similarly in 2020 how the Conservatives would dominate until at least 2030. Perhaps I was lucky to learn a lesson early on - I had a friend who is one of those people who expresses everything with 110% certainty and never acknowledges another's opinion or any shades of grey. In 1990 I bet him £50 that Gulf War One would last less than a year. He thought it would last two. But it was the arrogance that he, knowing nothing about NATO weapons or anything boring like that, showed, that convinced me that, while I could be wrong, I would be more likely to be on the right side of that bet. Remembering how cocksure he was is always a good way to recall how uncertain the future is.

    Come to think of it, he never paid up.

    With interest, he probably owes me his pension by now ...
    TBF to you, if Harris had won, then the war in Ukraine might well be over by now.
    Even if she'd be no improvement over Biden, there certainly wouldn't have been the repeated "lets give Vlad another couple of weeks" nonsense.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,400

    On days like these, in order to keep a thread of faith one has to remind oneself of what went on between 2019 and 2024.

    I had a blacklist of utter roasters I despised through the Blair years. My favourite (least favourite) was Geoff Hoon. Time to remake that list. The hateful Lucy Powell and Reeves are first and second so far. Starmer might be third.

    What did Geoff Hoon do, to lead the pack?
    To me, Hoon gave the appearance of being terminally self-serving. He lived some way outside the Constituency and (sill does afaik), but also by the way he conducted himself politically. His orientation was always imo to cover his backside, rather than deal with questions and problems. And he made a whole series of messes, including around the Iraq War, rather than just one which he then learned from.

    As Def Sec, I'd view both John Healey and Ben Wallace as being far more serious figures.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,541
    Told you from the start.

    This is Labours Liz Truss moment 😃
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,622
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pathetic turnout but another bad day for Starmer as Labour members back Burnham’s preferred candidate Lucy Powell over his preferred candidate Bridget Philippson

    No evidence that Starmer preferred either of them. None of this makes a difference to Starmer's standing. In some ways things are looking up for him. Farage is looking sleazy and flakey and Kemi is beyond doubt a no-hoper.

    So a perfect time for a Starmer reset which he needs and of all the leaders he's the one who holds the stage
    How many resets does a Prime Minister need in a week?

    Just when Starmer demonstrates his facile incompetence, Boris Johnson rocks up to the COVID Inquiry as a reminder that things could be even worse.
    I expect the median voter would now bring back Boris as PM tomorrow. Heck, I expect the median voter would even bring back Rishi as PM tomorrow now
    Starmer and Sunak are considered two cheeks of the same useless arse, and the median voter does not want a Johnson redux. You are wishcasting.
    The median voter is now voting Reform
    No, the modal voter is voting Reform,

    If we arrange people on a left-right scale, Reform get 29%, then Tories get 18%, so we’re 47% along. Next come the LibDems maybe, so the median voter is LibDem.
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