Skip to content

Sir John Curtice thinks the Tories are new Lib Dems – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,718
edited 7:55AM in General
Sir John Curtice thinks the Tories are new Lib Dems – politicalbetting.com

Lib Dems will ‘almost undoubtedly’ win more seats than Tories, says top pollster John Curtice.Sir John Curtice made the stark warning at a fringe event at the Conservative party conference.https://t.co/ZgfPlL3f6R

Read the full story here

«134

Comments

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,328
    Should we be on alert for a Tory to Liberal defection?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827

    All hail the brilliance of which ever Oxford Liberal Democrat ensured that Agent Truss would infiltrate and destroy the Conservative Party.

    And an honourable mention for our own resident superfan.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,310
    edited 8:03AM
    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,143

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,078
    Not undiluted good news if it drives right of centre voters to Nigel Farage's party.

    Good morning, everyone.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,328

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    Single Market.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827
    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    Sometimes I think you're just Luckyguy minus the Truss worship.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,913
    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    Did it make you spit your cornflakes out?

    :)
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,201

    Should we be on alert for a Tory to Liberal defection?

    I wonder if the current Lib Dem positioning might make that a little less likely. I find them to be slowly becoming less centrist and more and more left wing. That’s not to say that as a party with broad traditions (or, if you’re being less charitable, unclear ideological underpinnings) that could shift over time.

    I could still see it happening, mind you - it’s just that at the moment this “Orange Book” Lib-Dem ism which might be attractive to centrist Tories isn’t on strong display.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827
    Which idiot would trust this offer ?

    Trump calls on Democrats to reopen government, will then work on health care

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5542048-trump-healthcare-deal-democrats-reopen-government/
    President Trump on Monday called on Democrats to reopen the government, saying he will only discuss a potential deal on extending health care tax credits once they support the GOP funding proposal...</i€
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,970

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,208

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    Was Mrs Thatcher, as Prime Minister, really Conservative? She was contemptuous of the centrist Butskellite post-war tradition, although arguably the real innovator taking the party to the right economically was not Thatcher but Edward Heath with Selsdon Man.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,225
    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    A bit slow off the mark there with your LD post Taz, the thread had been up a whole 7 minutes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,328
    Nigelb said:

    Which idiot would trust this offer ?

    Trump calls on Democrats to reopen government, will then work on health care

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5542048-trump-healthcare-deal-democrats-reopen-government/
    President Trump on Monday called on Democrats to reopen the government, saying he will only discuss a potential deal on extending health care tax credits once they support the GOP funding proposal...

    I dunno why the Dems are trying to save GOP from its most unpopular set of policies i.e. health insurance/AHA.

    Let them pass and let them take the hit in the mid-terms.

    If they want to use something as leverage against the shut down vote then pick tariffs.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,292
    Nigelb said:

    Which idiot would trust this offer ?

    Trump calls on Democrats to reopen government, will then work on health care

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5542048-trump-healthcare-deal-democrats-reopen-government/
    President Trump on Monday called on Democrats to reopen the government, saying he will only discuss a potential deal on extending health care tax credits once they support the GOP funding proposal.../i€

    Susan Collins & Lisa Murkowski?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,263

    All hail the brilliance of which ever Oxford Liberal Democrat ensured that Agent Truss would infiltrate and destroy the Conservative Party.

    One of my clients was at Oxford Lib Dem club at the same time as her. As bonkers back then as is she is now, by all accounts.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,490
    FPT (might have guessed I'd be dethreaded about this time in the morning!)

    Computer security news: the Online Safety Act is, no, only joking.

    Discord has announced a third-party data breach: stolen data may include names, email addresses, billing information such as payment type and the last four digits of credit cards, and – in some cases – images of government IDs provided for age verification purposes.
    https://www.theregister.com/2025/10/06/discord_support_data_breach/

    The main achievement of the OSA in my case has been to switch on the inbuilt free VPN in my web-browser (Opera) after I discovered that:

    1) Bible Gateway (a really useful Christian resource which has online just about every English bible translation every made) has implemented geo-location blocking of the UK

    2) Imgur having implemented geo-location blocking has broken lots fairly obscure technical forums. In my particular case I was trying to find suggestions for implementing hardware watchdog circuitry for crash protection of a GPIO output from a Raspberry PI (I'm using one that reads some K type thermocouple probes as a thermostat on a 1200deg C plate oven at work - a software crash leaving the heating output on could result in an overtemp event that wrecks the oven) but it's quite a problem in forums covering everything from gaming to classic cars.

    But clearly I'm being kept suitably safe.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,310
    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    A bit slow off the mark there with your LD post Taz, the thread had been up a whole 7 minutes.
    I’ve been out for my morning walk before sitting down to watch Gaudy Night.

    Genuinely I’d like to know what the Lib Dem’s stand for. When you had orange bookers and Sandalistas it was clear what the policies were.

    Nowadays it just seems to be telling different groups what they want to hear. For example the undeserving WASPI women and the rest of the invective is about Farage and Trump.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,887
    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,970
    theProle said:

    FPT (might have guessed I'd be dethreaded about this time in the morning!)

    Computer security news: the Online Safety Act is, no, only joking.

    Discord has announced a third-party data breach: stolen data may include names, email addresses, billing information such as payment type and the last four digits of credit cards, and – in some cases – images of government IDs provided for age verification purposes.
    https://www.theregister.com/2025/10/06/discord_support_data_breach/

    The main achievement of the OSA in my case has been to switch on the inbuilt free VPN in my web-browser (Opera) after I discovered that:

    1) Bible Gateway (a really useful Christian resource which has online just about every English bible translation every made) has implemented geo-location blocking of the UK

    2) Imgur having implemented geo-location blocking has broken lots fairly obscure technical forums. In my particular case I was trying to find suggestions for implementing hardware watchdog circuitry for crash protection of a GPIO output from a Raspberry PI (I'm using one that reads some K type thermocouple probes as a thermostat on a 1200deg C plate oven at work - a software crash leaving the heating output on could result in an overtemp event that wrecks the oven) but it's quite a problem in forums covering everything from gaming to classic cars.

    But clearly I'm being kept suitably safe.
    Congratulations, citizen, on realising the glorious merits of the OSA! And just as soon as VPNs are banned too all children everywhere will be safe from harm online!

    Just as the introduction of speed limits has prevented all traffic accidents, injuries, and deaths. Huzzah for the Limitless Power of the Law!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,402

    Should we be on alert for a Tory to Liberal defection?

    I wonder if the current Lib Dem positioning might make that a little less likely. I find them to be slowly becoming less centrist and more and more left wing. That’s not to say that as a party with broad traditions (or, if you’re being less charitable, unclear ideological underpinnings) that could shift over time.

    I could still see it happening, mind you - it’s just that at the moment this “Orange Book” Lib-Dem ism which might be attractive to centrist Tories isn’t on strong display.
    To be honest, even as a supporter of the party and ex-member, i've no real clue as to the bulk of the party's policies and given we are three years or more from an election, I doubt that kind of granular policy detail is required and as we've seen this week, half thought out daily policy pronouncements usually end up doing more harm than good.

    As for a potential defector, @Taz looks the most likely.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,418

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    The LibDems have a record number of MPs and their polling figures are good compared to most of their history. They are doing well. They are NOT doing as well as Reform UK, but I don’t think that means they’re doing badly.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,104
    edited 8:23AM

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,310
    stodge said:

    Should we be on alert for a Tory to Liberal defection?

    I wonder if the current Lib Dem positioning might make that a little less likely. I find them to be slowly becoming less centrist and more and more left wing. That’s not to say that as a party with broad traditions (or, if you’re being less charitable, unclear ideological underpinnings) that could shift over time.

    I could still see it happening, mind you - it’s just that at the moment this “Orange Book” Lib-Dem ism which might be attractive to centrist Tories isn’t on strong display.
    To be honest, even as a supporter of the party and ex-member, i've no real clue as to the bulk of the party's policies and given we are three years or more from an election, I doubt that kind of granular policy detail is required and as we've seen this week, half thought out daily policy pronouncements usually end up doing more harm than good.

    As for a potential defector, @Taz looks the most likely.
    Thanks, but I will either stick with Labour or not bother next time.

    Our local Lib Dem councillor in a nearby ward, Craig Martin, seems very well regarded locally. But, alas, he won’t get my vote if he stands at the next GE.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,602
    edited 8:26AM
    R4 Today gave the LOTO a dead easy ride this morning and she was not very good.

    Kemi had not worked out how to deal with the Jenrick 'no white faces, not my preferred country' comment. SFAICS she actually had to dispense with his shadow ministerial services in order to be credible and serious.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,601
    On current polls yes with the Tories below 20% in most polling and Reform having overtaken them on the right and Labour still the main party of the left then the LDs are now occupying the centre and set to overtake the Conservatives on seats even if not yet votes.

    While Farage leads Reform as Kemi is showing it is unlikely they will reclaim the mantle of main party of the right however much she and Jenrick push leaving the ECHR and scrapping net zero etc. Not least as Farage is pushing for that anyway and saying the Tories would keep the two child benefit cap and not nationalise British steel as the main distinctions with Reform is hardly a game changer.

    What the Tories should be doing is trying to reclaim the centre right from Ed Davey. While Davey served in Cameron's government and is plausible as a liberal Orange Booker who won lots of ex Conservative home counties seats many of his members and MPs are more leftwing. Daisy Cooper was openly pushing tax rises at the LD conference for instance. It may require a more centre right leader like Cleverly for the Conservatives to reclaim that ground from the LDs though
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,970

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    The LibDems have a record number of MPs and their polling figures are good compared to most of their history. They are doing well. They are NOT doing as well as Reform UK, but I don’t think that means they’re doing badly.
    In these circumstances the Lib Dems should be looking to either be the Government or the Official Opposition after the next election. Doing well but lagging a mile behind Reform when both the big parties are as popular as a handjob from Edward Scissorhands is not good enough.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,887
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I wouldn't keep your hopes up for the budget.The terminally wooden Rachel Reeves trying to placate the Daily Telegraph will not end well.

    Starmer should get rid of her if only to have the unpleasant medicine delivered by a smilier face.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,285

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    The LibDems have a record number of MPs and their polling figures are good compared to most of their history. They are doing well. They are NOT doing as well as Reform UK, but I don’t think that means they’re doing badly.
    In these circumstances the Lib Dems should be looking to either be the Government or the Official Opposition after the next election. Doing well but lagging a mile behind Reform when both the big parties are as popular as a handjob from Edward Scissorhands is not good enough.
    Ultimately, it comes down to "what is the point of the Lib Dems?"
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,826
    Good morning everybody!

    About to go for my Covid vaccination, which the website tells I can't have, at a site which the website tells me doesn't exist, but when I spoke to the staff there yesterday they assured me there would be no problem. I'm over 75, (by 12 years!) and there's never been an issue in the past.

    On topic, I wonder if this will encourage Chris Mason and the rest of the BBC's political team to take their heads out of Farage's bottom and give some attention to the various LibDem spokespeople. I'd like to think so but will wait and see.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,887
    HYUFD said:

    On current polls yes with the Tories below 20% in most polling and Reform having overtaken them on the right and Labour still the main party of the left then the LDs are now occupying the centre and set to overtake the Conservatives on seats even if not yet votes.

    While Farage leads Reform as Kemi is showing it is unlikely they will reclaim the mantle of main party of the right however much she and Jenrick push leaving the ECHR and scrapping net zero etc. Not least as Farage is pushing for that anyway and saying the Tories would keep the two child benefit cap and not nationalise British steel as the main distinctions with Reform is hardly a game changer.

    What the Tories should be doing is trying to reclaim the centre right from Ed Davey. While Davey served in Cameron's government and is plausible as a liberal Orange Booker who won lots of ex Conservative home counties seats many of his members and MPs are more leftwing. Daisy Cooper was openly pushing tax rises at the LD conference for instance. It may require a more centre right leader like Cleverly for the Conservatives to reclaim that ground from the LDs though

    I agree, but that won't happen with a party led by the jack booted Napoleon that is Jenrick.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,457

    theProle said:

    FPT (might have guessed I'd be dethreaded about this time in the morning!)

    Computer security news: the Online Safety Act is, no, only joking.

    Discord has announced a third-party data breach: stolen data may include names, email addresses, billing information such as payment type and the last four digits of credit cards, and – in some cases – images of government IDs provided for age verification purposes.
    https://www.theregister.com/2025/10/06/discord_support_data_breach/

    The main achievement of the OSA in my case has been to switch on the inbuilt free VPN in my web-browser (Opera) after I discovered that:

    1) Bible Gateway (a really useful Christian resource which has online just about every English bible translation every made) has implemented geo-location blocking of the UK

    2) Imgur having implemented geo-location blocking has broken lots fairly obscure technical forums. In my particular case I was trying to find suggestions for implementing hardware watchdog circuitry for crash protection of a GPIO output from a Raspberry PI (I'm using one that reads some K type thermocouple probes as a thermostat on a 1200deg C plate oven at work - a software crash leaving the heating output on could result in an overtemp event that wrecks the oven) but it's quite a problem in forums covering everything from gaming to classic cars.

    But clearly I'm being kept suitably safe.
    Congratulations, citizen, on realising the glorious merits of the OSA! And just as soon as VPNs are banned too all children everywhere will be safe from harm online!

    Just as the introduction of speed limits has prevented all traffic accidents, injuries, and deaths. Huzzah for the Limitless Power of the Law!
    Got to say I’m looking forward to the VPN ban but the civil service needs to implement it first.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,457
    edited 8:38AM
    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Should we be on alert for a Tory to Liberal defection?

    I wonder if the current Lib Dem positioning might make that a little less likely. I find them to be slowly becoming less centrist and more and more left wing. That’s not to say that as a party with broad traditions (or, if you’re being less charitable, unclear ideological underpinnings) that could shift over time.

    I could still see it happening, mind you - it’s just that at the moment this “Orange Book” Lib-Dem ism which might be attractive to centrist Tories isn’t on strong display.
    To be honest, even as a supporter of the party and ex-member, i've no real clue as to the bulk of the party's policies and given we are three years or more from an election, I doubt that kind of granular policy detail is required and as we've seen this week, half thought out daily policy pronouncements usually end up doing more harm than good.

    As for a potential defector, @Taz looks the most likely.
    Thanks, but I will either stick with Labour or not bother next time.

    Our local Lib Dem councillor in a nearby ward, Craig Martin, seems very well regarded locally. But, alas, he won’t get my vote if he stands at the next GE.
    I’m probably a natural Lib Dem voter (bar their Nimbyisms) but as they can’t win around here i won’t waste my vote
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,602

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    LDs are neither insurgent (Reform, and to a lesser extent Green) nor a possible party of government.
    They have done remarkably well but at a price. In effect they are a sub species of Labour, and thrive exactly and only where Labour don't thrive and also Tory/Reform are not absolute certainties historically.

    Their job now, whatever it was in the past, is to keep Reform/Reformlite out of office in up to 100 seats by winning them, adding to the total of seats won by parties that are not very good but not actually insane.

    This is a step change, and insufficiently recognised as a win. People forget that previously they held about 6 seats.

    A next step change in which they become one of two principal candidates for power is not impossible, but would take both genius and luck, as it requires either both right parties to abandon the role, or Labour to do so. The Labour machine is exceedingly robust.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,278
    Whoops, British flight control computers found on Russian/Iranian drones bombing Ukraine.

    Mr Zelensky calling out a number of Western countries who have obvious export control issues with military-grade components ending up with sanctioned nations.

    https://x.com/zelenskyyua/status/1975116539540992410
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,278
    eek said:

    theProle said:

    FPT (might have guessed I'd be dethreaded about this time in the morning!)

    Computer security news: the Online Safety Act is, no, only joking.

    Discord has announced a third-party data breach: stolen data may include names, email addresses, billing information such as payment type and the last four digits of credit cards, and – in some cases – images of government IDs provided for age verification purposes.
    https://www.theregister.com/2025/10/06/discord_support_data_breach/

    The main achievement of the OSA in my case has been to switch on the inbuilt free VPN in my web-browser (Opera) after I discovered that:

    1) Bible Gateway (a really useful Christian resource which has online just about every English bible translation every made) has implemented geo-location blocking of the UK

    2) Imgur having implemented geo-location blocking has broken lots fairly obscure technical forums. In my particular case I was trying to find suggestions for implementing hardware watchdog circuitry for crash protection of a GPIO output from a Raspberry PI (I'm using one that reads some K type thermocouple probes as a thermostat on a 1200deg C plate oven at work - a software crash leaving the heating output on could result in an overtemp event that wrecks the oven) but it's quite a problem in forums covering everything from gaming to classic cars.

    But clearly I'm being kept suitably safe.
    Congratulations, citizen, on realising the glorious merits of the OSA! And just as soon as VPNs are banned too all children everywhere will be safe from harm online!

    Just as the introduction of speed limits has prevented all traffic accidents, injuries, and deaths. Huzzah for the Limitless Power of the Law!
    Got to say I’m looking forward to the VPN ban but the civil service needs to implement it first.
    Start by publishing the firewall logs from Parliament, and work outwards from there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,601

    Nigelb said:

    Which idiot would trust this offer ?

    Trump calls on Democrats to reopen government, will then work on health care

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5542048-trump-healthcare-deal-democrats-reopen-government/
    President Trump on Monday called on Democrats to reopen the government, saying he will only discuss a potential deal on extending health care tax credits once they support the GOP funding proposal...

    I dunno why the Dems are trying to save GOP from its most unpopular set of policies i.e. health insurance/AHA.

    Let them pass and let them take the hit in the mid-terms.

    If they want to use something as leverage against the shut down vote then pick tariffs.
    As the ex Tea Party right of the GOP see even health care tax credits as socialism and it will split them from Trump
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,602

    Good morning everybody!

    About to go for my Covid vaccination, which the website tells I can't have, at a site which the website tells me doesn't exist, but when I spoke to the staff there yesterday they assured me there would be no problem. I'm over 75, (by 12 years!) and there's never been an issue in the past.

    On topic, I wonder if this will encourage Chris Mason and the rest of the BBC's political team to take their heads out of Farage's bottom and give some attention to the various LibDem spokespeople. I'd like to think so but will wait and see.

    Think what is box office. Farage has always conveyed the sense that he is insurgent and intends to impact directly on events as a change maker. To the extent that it is possible he will be PM.

    The LDs never ever convey a serious sense of mattering beyond being the outfit that is a sub branch of the centre left, who in up to 100 seats are the non rightist candidate.

    (Geographically this seems to be mostly connected to King Alfred and Danelaw. I wonder why).

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,601

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    Voting LD is now a marker of having made it to the upper middle class, living in Surrey or the Cotswolds or Tunbridge Wells or SW London, shopping at Waitrose etc much like voting Tory used to be something to aspire to.

    Voting Reform by contrast is now as common as voting Labour used to be. Something your plumber or the binmen did.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,725
    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today gave the LOTO a dead easy ride this morning and she was not very good.

    Kemi had not worked out how to deal with the Jenrick 'no white faces, not my preferred country' comment. SFAICS she actually had to dispense with his shadow ministerial services in order to be credible and serious.

    Is Jenrick going to ban White Flight and force us all to move to Birmingham? I think we should be told.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,225
    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    A bit slow off the mark there with your LD post Taz, the thread had been up a whole 7 minutes.
    I’ve been out for my morning walk before sitting down to watch Gaudy Night.

    Genuinely I’d like to know what the Lib Dem’s stand for. When you had orange bookers and Sandalistas it was clear what the policies were.

    Nowadays it just seems to be telling different groups what they want to hear. For example the undeserving WASPI women and the rest of the invective is about Farage and Trump.
    Maybe we can discuss over a beer sometime. Like me you obviously apprecaite a decent cask beer. Don't want to bore the pants off of anyone here. If you are down South anytime drop me a DM.

    FYI I am an Orange Booker.

    Re your specific examples:

    WASPIs I agree with you although the Government at the time could have done better by staggering the change more so that it wasn't so abrupt and actually writing to them all beforehand. I appreciate the writing it is an expense, but they wrote to me to tell me I was getting a £10 Christmas bonus for goodness sake (which was a waste of money). Having said all of that it was well publicised.

    Re Farage and Trump that is a no brainer politically. It makes them distinct from the other parties (who either support him or need to suck up to him because they are in Government). So it is politically sensible means to harness votes and is consistent with them being politically opposite. They could bang on about electoral reform, but the average voter doesn't give a damn.

    The LDs are knee deep in policies, but you won't see them publicised by the media. It is hard for them to get airtime, hence the ridiculous publicity stunts. Sadly they work.

    PS I don't agree with all LD stuff at all and whereas I don't agree with most (although some) of the stuff from Reform/Labour/Tories/Greens etc I don't get fixated on any of them.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,570

    Good morning everybody!

    About to go for my Covid vaccination, which the website tells I can't have, at a site which the website tells me doesn't exist, but when I spoke to the staff there yesterday they assured me there would be no problem. I'm over 75, (by 12 years!) and there's never been an issue in the past.

    On topic, I wonder if this will encourage Chris Mason and the rest of the BBC's political team to take their heads out of Farage's bottom and give some attention to the various LibDem spokespeople. I'd like to think so but will wait and see.

    I'm booked in for flu and covid jabs tomorrow (history of leukeamia plus asthma gets me entitled). I am unsure about whether we need to keep vaccinating everyone for covid or not. Most who want it have had at least 4 or 5 shots. I don't know whether a boost its needed every year. We are NOT intending to vaccinate children such as my son, who is coming up to three in Jan, relying on natural infection.

    And there are lots of people who are desperate to have covid shots because they have been terrorised over the last few years.

    Not sure where the evidence on this is, right now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Which idiot would trust this offer ?

    Trump calls on Democrats to reopen government, will then work on health care

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5542048-trump-healthcare-deal-democrats-reopen-government/
    President Trump on Monday called on Democrats to reopen the government, saying he will only discuss a potential deal on extending health care tax credits once they support the GOP funding proposal...

    I dunno why the Dems are trying to save GOP from its most unpopular set of policies i.e. health insurance/AHA.

    Let them pass and let them take the hit in the mid-terms.

    If they want to use something as leverage against the shut down vote then pick tariffs.
    Because they've been trying to negotiate a deal which preserves health funding.
    That has a twofold purpose: they actually do want to save it, and in the event they can't, they want to make sure the blame lands where it belongs.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,201
    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    LDs are neither insurgent (Reform, and to a lesser extent Green) nor a possible party of government.
    They have done remarkably well but at a price. In effect they are a sub species of Labour, and thrive exactly and only where Labour don't thrive and also Tory/Reform are not absolute certainties historically.

    Their job now, whatever it was in the past, is to keep Reform/Reformlite out of office in up to 100 seats by winning them, adding to the total of seats won by parties that are not very good but not actually insane.

    This is a step change, and insufficiently recognised as a win. People forget that previously they held about 6 seats.

    A next step change in which they become one of two principal candidates for power is not impossible, but would take both genius and luck, as it requires either both right parties to abandon the role, or Labour to do so. The Labour machine is exceedingly robust.
    I agree re the Labour machine; though what will be very interesting is to see what happens to it in places where it starts to be challenged by Reform. If we go through 2/3 local elections where Reform start winning and supplanting councillors in some of these very core Labour areas it will be interesting to see how the party reacts.

    The interesting thing about Reform is that they are fighting both Labour and the Tories across seats and regions both would never have expected to lose - even going beyond the 2019 Red Wall for Labour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827

    Nigelb said:

    Which idiot would trust this offer ?

    Trump calls on Democrats to reopen government, will then work on health care

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5542048-trump-healthcare-deal-democrats-reopen-government/
    President Trump on Monday called on Democrats to reopen the government, saying he will only discuss a potential deal on extending health care tax credits once they support the GOP funding proposal.../i€

    Susan Collins & Lisa Murkowski?
    Not Democrats.
    There's Fetterman, of course.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,145

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today gave the LOTO a dead easy ride this morning and she was not very good.

    Kemi had not worked out how to deal with the Jenrick 'no white faces, not my preferred country' comment. SFAICS she actually had to dispense with his shadow ministerial services in order to be credible and serious.

    Is Jenrick going to ban White Flight and force us all to move to Birmingham? I think we should be told.
    So that's why he wants us to leave the ECHR, so we can be forced to move to Birmingham.

    Birmingham is a dump full of Brummies whose accents are awful.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,310
    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    A bit slow off the mark there with your LD post Taz, the thread had been up a whole 7 minutes.
    I’ve been out for my morning walk before sitting down to watch Gaudy Night.

    Genuinely I’d like to know what the Lib Dem’s stand for. When you had orange bookers and Sandalistas it was clear what the policies were.

    Nowadays it just seems to be telling different groups what they want to hear. For example the undeserving WASPI women and the rest of the invective is about Farage and Trump.
    Maybe we can discuss over a beer sometime. Like me you obviously apprecaite a decent cask beer. Don't want to bore the pants off of anyone here. If you are down South anytime drop me a DM.

    FYI I am an Orange Booker.

    Re your specific examples:

    WASPIs I agree with you although the Government at the time could have done better by staggering the change more so that it wasn't so abrupt and actually writing to them all beforehand. I appreciate the writing it is an expense, but they wrote to me to tell me I was getting a £10 Christmas bonus for goodness sake (which was a waste of money). Having said all of that it was well publicised.

    Re Farage and Trump that is a no brainer politically. It makes them distinct from the other parties (who either support him or need to suck up to him because they are in Government). So it is politically sensible means to harness votes and is consistent with them being politically opposite. They could bang on about electoral reform, but the average voter doesn't give a damn.

    The LDs are knee deep in policies, but you won't see them publicised by the media. It is hard for them to get airtime, hence the ridiculous publicity stunts. Sadly they work.

    PS I don't agree with all LD stuff at all and whereas I don't agree with most (although some) of the stuff from Reform/Labour/Tories/Greens etc I don't get fixated on any of them.
    Will certainly do so, if I’m ever that way. A beer sounds good. Cask deffo.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,310
    Are there many seats outside of Devon/Cornwall where Reform would be challenging the Lib Dem’s.

    I cannot see Lib Dem’s stopping Reform merely taking Tory/Labour rural seats.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,292
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Which idiot would trust this offer ?

    Trump calls on Democrats to reopen government, will then work on health care

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5542048-trump-healthcare-deal-democrats-reopen-government/
    President Trump on Monday called on Democrats to reopen the government, saying he will only discuss a potential deal on extending health care tax credits once they support the GOP funding proposal.../i€

    Susan Collins & Lisa Murkowski?
    Not Democrats.
    There's Fetterman, of course.
    I thought we were searching for gullible idiots.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,601

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    Thatcher would have opposed nationalising British steel though, like Kemi but unlike Farage.

    While early years Thatcher backed entry into the EEC, after her Bruges speech latter years Thatcher was much more Reformy, like Farage she was an opponent of the Maastricht Treaty for instance and she strongly backed IDS and Hague to be Conservative leader over EUphile Ken Clarke
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,063
    HYUFD said:

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    Voting LD is now a marker of having made it to the upper middle class, living in Surrey or the Cotswolds or Tunbridge Wells or SW London, shopping at Waitrose etc much like voting Tory used to be something to aspire to.

    Voting Reform by contrast is now as common as voting Labour used to be. Something your plumber or the binmen did.
    I used to be a binman.

    Looks like Ill have to vote Reform.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827
    stodge said:

    Should we be on alert for a Tory to Liberal defection?

    I wonder if the current Lib Dem positioning might make that a little less likely. I find them to be slowly becoming less centrist and more and more left wing. That’s not to say that as a party with broad traditions (or, if you’re being less charitable, unclear ideological underpinnings) that could shift over time.

    I could still see it happening, mind you - it’s just that at the moment this “Orange Book” Lib-Dem ism which might be attractive to centrist Tories isn’t on strong display.
    To be honest, even as a supporter of the party and ex-member, i've no real clue as to the bulk of the party's policies and given we are three years or more from an election, I doubt that kind of granular policy detail is required and as we've seen this week, half thought out daily policy pronouncements usually end up doing more harm than good.

    As for a potential defector, @Taz looks the most likely.
    How does @RochdalePioneers see this ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,399
    On the OSA

    The U.K. national body of a sport has banned some coaches from any participation in the sport (as organised by the national body) for *life*.

    They did so after an external investigation, complete with lawyers checking everything.

    The national body then put a list of the banned coaches on their website.

    They were promptly hit with a legal notice under the OSA, saying that they were harming said coaches.

    So the list of life banned coaches/people was amended. And the coaches suing removed.

    So it seems, the OSA can be used to prevent organisations promulgating information on individuals who are banned for gross misbehaviour.

    Won’t someone please think of the children?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Which idiot would trust this offer ?

    Trump calls on Democrats to reopen government, will then work on health care

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5542048-trump-healthcare-deal-democrats-reopen-government/
    President Trump on Monday called on Democrats to reopen the government, saying he will only discuss a potential deal on extending health care tax credits once they support the GOP funding proposal.../i€

    Susan Collins & Lisa Murkowski?
    Not Democrats.
    There's Fetterman, of course.
    I thought we were searching for gullible idiots.
    Understood.
    But this is more about the GOP vs the Democrats.

    Collins and Murkowski are going to vote with their party on the budget, come what may. They only show a bit of bipartisan leg where the stakes are low.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827

    HYUFD said:

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    Voting LD is now a marker of having made it to the upper middle class, living in Surrey or the Cotswolds or Tunbridge Wells or SW London, shopping at Waitrose etc much like voting Tory used to be something to aspire to.

    Voting Reform by contrast is now as common as voting Labour used to be. Something your plumber or the binmen did.
    I used to be a binman.

    Looks like Ill have to vote Reform.
    Tories for the dustbin of history then ?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,547

    Good morning everybody!

    About to go for my Covid vaccination, which the website tells I can't have, at a site which the website tells me doesn't exist, but when I spoke to the staff there yesterday they assured me there would be no problem. I'm over 75, (by 12 years!) and there's never been an issue in the past.

    On topic, I wonder if this will encourage Chris Mason and the rest of the BBC's political team to take their heads out of Farage's bottom and give some attention to the various LibDem spokespeople. I'd like to think so but will wait and see.

    I'm booked in for flu and covid jabs tomorrow (history of leukeamia plus asthma gets me entitled). I am unsure about whether we need to keep vaccinating everyone for covid or not. Most who want it have had at least 4 or 5 shots. I don't know whether a boost its needed every year. We are NOT intending to vaccinate children such as my son, who is coming up to three in Jan, relying on natural infection.

    And there are lots of people who are desperate to have covid shots because they have been terrorised over the last few years.

    Not sure where the evidence on this is, right now.
    I’m probably not going to bother with a Covid booster unless media reports say the current strain/strains is particularly brutal. It is like a mild flu then I will tolerate it. Biggest driver to make me have a Covid jab wagging would be if it was required to have it to go to places/travel etc.

    Flu I will have as had flu for first time in my life last Christmas and it was brutal - worse than my worst Covid, also completely destroyed Christmas for me.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,351

    Good morning everybody!

    About to go for my Covid vaccination, which the website tells I can't have, at a site which the website tells me doesn't exist, but when I spoke to the staff there yesterday they assured me there would be no problem. I'm over 75, (by 12 years!) and there's never been an issue in the past.

    On topic, I wonder if this will encourage Chris Mason and the rest of the BBC's political team to take their heads out of Farage's bottom and give some attention to the various LibDem spokespeople. I'd like to think so but will wait and see.

    I'm booked in for flu and covid jabs tomorrow (history of leukeamia plus asthma gets me entitled). I am unsure about whether we need to keep vaccinating everyone for covid or not. Most who want it have had at least 4 or 5 shots. I don't know whether a boost its needed every year. We are NOT intending to vaccinate children such as my son, who is coming up to three in Jan, relying on natural infection.

    And there are lots of people who are desperate to have covid shots because they have been terrorised over the last few years.

    Not sure where the evidence on this is, right now.
    I'm not bothering with a Covid jab because I currently have Covid. Had a test left over and Mrs Flatlander took it for the lolz. Big fat red line. It isn't very pleasant.

    Seems there are a couple of strains going round at the moment.

    Aside from this, I'm not sure how long each jab gives some protection. I'd be surprised if it wasn't longer than a year and I wasn't about to rush out for one.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,490
    edited 8:59AM
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,826

    Good morning everybody!

    About to go for my Covid vaccination, which the website tells I can't have, at a site which the website tells me doesn't exist, but when I spoke to the staff there yesterday they assured me there would be no problem. I'm over 75, (by 12 years!) and there's never been an issue in the past.

    On topic, I wonder if this will encourage Chris Mason and the rest of the BBC's political team to take their heads out of Farage's bottom and give some attention to the various LibDem spokespeople. I'd like to think so but will wait and see.

    I'm booked in for flu and covid jabs tomorrow (history of leukeamia plus asthma gets me entitled). I am unsure about whether we need to keep vaccinating everyone for covid or not. Most who want it have had at least 4 or 5 shots. I don't know whether a boost its needed every year. We are NOT intending to vaccinate children such as my son, who is coming up to three in Jan, relying on natural infection.

    And there are lots of people who are desperate to have covid shots because they have been terrorised over the last few years.

    Not sure where the evidence on this is, right now.
    I believe that the organism responsible for Covid is mutating in a similar fashion to that responsible for 'flu. I therefore suspect that a further shot is needed, but maybe some mature reflection would be appropriate.

    And thanks for the paper yesterday.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,145
    Lord Hermer has accused the Tories of jeopardising a potential legal appeal over the thwarted prosecution of a member of the rap group Kneecap on terrorism charges.

    The Attorney General has written to the Opposition, accusing them of inaccurate comments and warning them of the “potential impact of their words on legal proceedings” over the dropping of the case against Kneecap rapper Liam Óg Ó hAnnaidh.

    In a letter to Robert Jenrick, the shadow home secretary, Lord Hermer disclosed that the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) is considering an appeal and said: “I am sure you will carefully consider any further public comments to avoid any risk of prejudicing any future proceedings.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/10/07/lord-hermer-accuses-tories-putting-kneecap-appeal-at-risk/
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,826
    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

    Sainsbury's in Braintree is the cheapest round here; sometimes over 10p/litre less than elsewhere.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,291
    Taz said:

    Are there many seats outside of Devon/Cornwall where Reform would be challenging the Lib Dem’s.

    I cannot see Lib Dem’s stopping Reform merely taking Tory/Labour rural seats.

    The collapse of the Tories benefits the Lib Dems and benefits Reform a lot more. Everything stems from that collapse given the electoral system. Lib Dems and Reform are two sides of that same coin.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,677

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today gave the LOTO a dead easy ride this morning and she was not very good.

    Kemi had not worked out how to deal with the Jenrick 'no white faces, not my preferred country' comment. SFAICS she actually had to dispense with his shadow ministerial services in order to be credible and serious.

    Is Jenrick going to ban White Flight and force us all to move to Birmingham? I think we should be told.
    If he introduces a Two Tone Housing Policy will he be sent to Coventry.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,044

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today gave the LOTO a dead easy ride this morning and she was not very good.

    Kemi had not worked out how to deal with the Jenrick 'no white faces, not my preferred country' comment. SFAICS she actually had to dispense with his shadow ministerial services in order to be credible and serious.

    Is Jenrick going to ban White Flight and force us all to move to Birmingham? I think we should be told.
    So that's why he wants us to leave the ECHR, so we can be forced to move to Birmingham.

    Birmingham is a dump full of Brummies whose accents are awful.
    And yet still better than the dump that is Manchester
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,104
    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

    See - it's working because now we're talking about a hypothetical Labour policy.

    It would have to be gentle gradation between no fuel duty in Benbecula to full whack in central London. It would never be perfect and cause some perverse outcomes in some cases, but far far better than something entirely counter-productive like charging on mileage which harms rural communities and incentivises short journeys.

    The best motoring tax would be a flat £1 charge per journey.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,399
    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

    At one point, the issue of lorries filling up the other side of the Channel and delivering across the U.K. was a serious competition issue for domestic hauliers.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,225
    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    A bit slow off the mark there with your LD post Taz, the thread had been up a whole 7 minutes.
    I’ve been out for my morning walk before sitting down to watch Gaudy Night.

    Genuinely I’d like to know what the Lib Dem’s stand for. When you had orange bookers and Sandalistas it was clear what the policies were.

    Nowadays it just seems to be telling different groups what they want to hear. For example the undeserving WASPI women and the rest of the invective is about Farage and Trump.
    Maybe we can discuss over a beer sometime. Like me you obviously apprecaite a decent cask beer. Don't want to bore the pants off of anyone here. If you are down South anytime drop me a DM.

    FYI I am an Orange Booker.

    Re your specific examples:

    WASPIs I agree with you although the Government at the time could have done better by staggering the change more so that it wasn't so abrupt and actually writing to them all beforehand. I appreciate the writing it is an expense, but they wrote to me to tell me I was getting a £10 Christmas bonus for goodness sake (which was a waste of money). Having said all of that it was well publicised.

    Re Farage and Trump that is a no brainer politically. It makes them distinct from the other parties (who either support him or need to suck up to him because they are in Government). So it is politically sensible means to harness votes and is consistent with them being politically opposite. They could bang on about electoral reform, but the average voter doesn't give a damn.

    The LDs are knee deep in policies, but you won't see them publicised by the media. It is hard for them to get airtime, hence the ridiculous publicity stunts. Sadly they work.

    PS I don't agree with all LD stuff at all and whereas I don't agree with most (although some) of the stuff from Reform/Labour/Tories/Greens etc I don't get fixated on any of them.
    Will certainly do so, if I’m ever that way. A beer sounds good. Cask deffo.
    I would volunteer when I am up your neck of the woods, but that never happens (too cold). Having said that my daughters boyfriend is from Middlesbrough which I vaguely recall is somewhere up north.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827
    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

    See - it's working because now we're talking about a hypothetical Labour policy.

    It would have to be gentle gradation between no fuel duty in Benbecula to full whack in central London. It would never be perfect and cause some perverse outcomes in some cases, but far far better than something entirely counter-productive like charging on mileage which harms rural communities and incentivises short journeys.

    The best motoring tax would be a flat £1 charge per journey.
    Mucking about with complicated changes to fuel duty, when it's going to start the slide into terminal decline quite soon, would be an enormous waste of government effort, for no very obvious benefit.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,420
    @bestforbritain.org‬

    Wow. Robert Jenrick doubles down by branding a black journalist's questions "ridiculous" and saying that the problem is not his comments, but "journalists like you who pop up and try to knock me down", adding that "this is the reason why terrorist attacks happen". ~AA

    https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.org/post/3m2lqc3tsak2g
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,104
    Nigelb said:

    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

    See - it's working because now we're talking about a hypothetical Labour policy.

    It would have to be gentle gradation between no fuel duty in Benbecula to full whack in central London. It would never be perfect and cause some perverse outcomes in some cases, but far far better than something entirely counter-productive like charging on mileage which harms rural communities and incentivises short journeys.

    The best motoring tax would be a flat £1 charge per journey.
    Mucking about with complicated changes to fuel duty, when it's going to start the slide into terminal decline quite soon, would be an enormous waste of government effort, for no very obvious benefit.
    Highly likely to be implemented then ;)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,461

    HYUFD said:

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    Voting LD is now a marker of having made it to the upper middle class, living in Surrey or the Cotswolds or Tunbridge Wells or SW London, shopping at Waitrose etc much like voting Tory used to be something to aspire to.

    Voting Reform by contrast is now as common as voting Labour used to be. Something your plumber or the binmen did.
    I used to be a binman.

    Looks like Ill have to vote Reform.
    Surely as an ex-binman you should be taking out the rubbish not bringing it in?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,278
    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

    See - it's working because now we're talking about a hypothetical Labour policy.

    It would have to be gentle gradation between no fuel duty in Benbecula to full whack in central London. It would never be perfect and cause some perverse outcomes in some cases, but far far better than something entirely counter-productive like charging on mileage which harms rural communities and incentivises short journeys.

    The best motoring tax would be a flat £1 charge per journey.
    How’s about not taxing mobility.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,748
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    Voting LD is now a marker of having made it to the upper middle class, living in Surrey or the Cotswolds or Tunbridge Wells or SW London, shopping at Waitrose etc much like voting Tory used to be something to aspire to.

    Voting Reform by contrast is now as common as voting Labour used to be. Something your plumber or the binmen did.
    I used to be a binman.

    Looks like Ill have to vote Reform.
    Surely as an ex-binman you should be taking out the rubbish not bringing it in?
    Sanitary operatives recycle rubbish too, nowadays.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,461
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

    See - it's working because now we're talking about a hypothetical Labour policy.

    It would have to be gentle gradation between no fuel duty in Benbecula to full whack in central London. It would never be perfect and cause some perverse outcomes in some cases, but far far better than something entirely counter-productive like charging on mileage which harms rural communities and incentivises short journeys.

    The best motoring tax would be a flat £1 charge per journey.
    Mucking about with complicated changes to fuel duty, when it's going to start the slide into terminal decline quite soon, would be an enormous waste of government effort, for no very obvious benefit.
    Highly likely to be implemented then ;)
    Nah, according to the Fukkers and the Tories they're good at handing out obscure benefits.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,104
    edited 9:20AM
    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    That’s pretty damning from Sir John. What an awful thing to say. The Tories are bad but Lib Dem’s !!

    What is wrong with the Lib Dems?

    Labour are aimlessly treading water lost between Palestine and Israel and hamstrung by their ridiculous "no new taxes" pledge from 14 years in Opposition. Whilst the Tories, where do you start? And the Greens, loud, excitable and as green and mad as a bag of frogs. And as for Farage, magic remedies from the MAGA right, uncosted, unhinged and unquesttioned.
    At least the Greens and Reform have some interesting ideas, even if they are completely crazy. I think that is at least part of why Labour aren't doing well - I really hope the budget has something innovative it even if the kind of wholesale reform I want to see isn't there. Local fuel duty rates based on rurality index?
    I like the idea of local fuel duty, but isn't it utterly impractical? My car does nearly 1k miles on a tank, I already plan my filling points to buy fuel where it's cheapest. Local duty just means that everyone will fill up at rural locations rather than big cities (the cheapest place I go semi-regularly is currently a Morrisons in Breadbury, just off the M67, although if I'm anywhere near Whitchurch I get a tank full from DA Roberts in Grindley Brook - he's usually the UK's cheapest filling station).

    See - it's working because now we're talking about a hypothetical Labour policy.

    It would have to be gentle gradation between no fuel duty in Benbecula to full whack in central London. It would never be perfect and cause some perverse outcomes in some cases, but far far better than something entirely counter-productive like charging on mileage which harms rural communities and incentivises short journeys.

    The best motoring tax would be a flat £1 charge per journey.
    How’s about not taxing mobility.
    It's not a bad argument but taxing motoring does tick three boxes in terms of the economics: is a Pigou tax for road wear, congestion, noise pollution, and emissions; isn't as distortive as other taxes like employer NICs or taxes on industry; is highly progressive because mileage correlates closely with incomes.

    It's why it typically comes top of things that economists think should be taxed (considering that you need to find a way to raise revenue somehow). Formulating something that is optimal for all these outcomes is tricky though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,070
    Scott_xP said:

    @bestforbritain.org‬

    Wow. Robert Jenrick doubles down by branding a black journalist's questions "ridiculous" and saying that the problem is not his comments, but "journalists like you who pop up and try to knock me down", adding that "this is the reason why terrorist attacks happen". ~AA

    https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.org/post/3m2lqc3tsak2g

    How very Trumpian.

    (Actually, JD Vance spun exactly the same line of bullshit last week...)
  • glwglw Posts: 10,544
    Scott_xP said:

    @bestforbritain.org‬

    Wow. Robert Jenrick doubles down by branding a black journalist's questions "ridiculous" and saying that the problem is not his comments, but "journalists like you who pop up and try to knock me down", adding that "this is the reason why terrorist attacks happen". ~AA

    https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.org/post/3m2lqc3tsak2g

    He tried this Trumpian "reasoning" on Radio 5 this morning as well, broadly saying 'my possibly racist comments aren't the problem, people being offended by my possibly racist comments are the problem'.

    He's a berk without enough sense to apologise and try to properly explain the point he was trying to make.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,225
    Taz said:

    Are there many seats outside of Devon/Cornwall where Reform would be challenging the Lib Dem’s.

    I cannot see Lib Dem’s stopping Reform merely taking Tory/Labour rural seats.

    I think you are correct, they won't. Reform are where the LDs used to be in having a decent percentage of the vote and few seats. However once you get over a certain percentage the seats fall like dominoes. The LDs never achieved that. Reform might. Certainly on current predictions they will, but you know 4 years is a long time.

    Whereas the LD strategy has moved them from few seats for their percentage of the vote to lots of seats, but that now means it is hard to add significant numbers of seats to that number (the domino effect has gone because of concentration of votes). It is hard to see past another 10+ seats currently, although on current polling I do think they will gain those.

    Interesting you identified Devon and Cornwall. I think the Rural Devon seats MRPs identify for Reform will actually have the LDs as the main challengers to Con/Lab. Cornwall is a bit harder. This should be LD territory, but Reform do appear to be the challengers to Con/Lab here. I don't think anyone is going to challenge the LDs for their existing seats in Devon and Cornwall, but it will be an interesting fight between Reform, the LDs and the incumbents in the other (rural) seats here.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,120
    Scott_xP said:

    @bestforbritain.org‬

    Wow. Robert Jenrick doubles down by branding a black journalist's questions "ridiculous" and saying that the problem is not his comments, but "journalists like you who pop up and try to knock me down", adding that "this is the reason why terrorist attacks happen". ~AA

    https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.org/post/3m2lqc3tsak2g

    All George Floyd's fault
  • Sandpit said:

    Whoops, British flight control computers found on Russian/Iranian drones bombing Ukraine.

    Mr Zelensky calling out a number of Western countries who have obvious export control issues with military-grade components ending up with sanctioned nations.

    https://x.com/zelenskyyua/status/1975116539540992410

    He states that microcomputers from the UK are found in Russian missiles. Unless that's a mistranslation, the only 'microcomputer' produced in the UK in any quantity is the the Raspberry Pi. Good luck stopping anyone getting hold of those, over 70m have been made. They're everywhere.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,602

    Scott_xP said:

    @bestforbritain.org‬

    Wow. Robert Jenrick doubles down by branding a black journalist's questions "ridiculous" and saying that the problem is not his comments, but "journalists like you who pop up and try to knock me down", adding that "this is the reason why terrorist attacks happen". ~AA

    https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.org/post/3m2lqc3tsak2g

    How very Trumpian.

    (Actually, JD Vance spun exactly the same line of bullshit last week...)
    I don't think Kemi's position can be rescued, but if it can it requires her to remove Jenrick from the shadow front bench.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,921
    Taz said:

    Are there many seats outside of Devon/Cornwall where Reform would be challenging the Lib Dem’s.

    I cannot see Lib Dem’s stopping Reform merely taking Tory/Labour rural seats.

    There are one or two like Eastbourne, North Norfolk, but they're long shots for Reform.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,426

    Good morning everybody!

    About to go for my Covid vaccination, which the website tells I can't have, at a site which the website tells me doesn't exist, but when I spoke to the staff there yesterday they assured me there would be no problem. I'm over 75, (by 12 years!) and there's never been an issue in the past.

    On topic, I wonder if this will encourage Chris Mason and the rest of the BBC's political team to take their heads out of Farage's bottom and give some attention to the various LibDem spokespeople. I'd like to think so but will wait and see.

    I'm booked in for flu and covid jabs tomorrow (history of leukeamia plus asthma gets me entitled). I am unsure about whether we need to keep vaccinating everyone for covid or not. Most who want it have had at least 4 or 5 shots. I don't know whether a boost its needed every year. We are NOT intending to vaccinate children such as my son, who is coming up to three in Jan, relying on natural infection.

    And there are lots of people who are desperate to have covid shots because they have been terrorised over the last few years.

    Not sure where the evidence on this is, right now.
    As I understand it the Covid virus continues to mutate rapidly, and so it seems sensible to treat it as we do Influenza. Annual vaccinations for the latest variant, available to those who are particularly vulnerable, or expect to be in regular close contract with the vulnerable.

    The main difference with influenza is that children are not vulnerable to Covid in the way that they are to influenza.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,921
    "Digital ID cards pave way for £600m tax grab
    HMRC hopes to use online identification to secure unpaid revenue and prevent ‘errors’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/07/digital-id-cards-pave-way-for-600m-tax-grab
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,070
    edited 9:30AM
    On topic, I will be on the other side of that bet. Reform has not generated an identity seperate to that of Farage. They are one heart attack away from dissolving. If that were to happen, there is only one realistic way to get rid of this abomination of a Government - which is the return of the previous abomination. The alternative is a rainbow coalition of chaos. If the Tories look half-way sane, a chunk of voters will give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Half-way sane is not embracing Robert Jenrick, however.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,278

    Sandpit said:

    Whoops, British flight control computers found on Russian/Iranian drones bombing Ukraine.

    Mr Zelensky calling out a number of Western countries who have obvious export control issues with military-grade components ending up with sanctioned nations.

    https://x.com/zelenskyyua/status/1975116539540992410

    He states that microcomputers from the UK are found in Russian missiles. Unless that's a mistranslation, the only 'microcomputer' produced in the UK in any quantity is the the Raspberry Pi. Good luck stopping anyone getting hold of those, over 70m have been made. They're everywhere.
    If that’s what it is, then yeah they’re everywhere and with a whole load of legitimate use.

    I’m sure the MoD will be asking for clarification from the Ukranians, of exactly what were the items under discussion.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,418
    HYUFD said:

    On current polls yes with the Tories below 20% in most polling and Reform having overtaken them on the right and Labour still the main party of the left then the LDs are now occupying the centre and set to overtake the Conservatives on seats even if not yet votes.

    While Farage leads Reform as Kemi is showing it is unlikely they will reclaim the mantle of main party of the right however much she and Jenrick push leaving the ECHR and scrapping net zero etc. Not least as Farage is pushing for that anyway and saying the Tories would keep the two child benefit cap and not nationalise British steel as the main distinctions with Reform is hardly a game changer.

    What the Tories should be doing is trying to reclaim the centre right from Ed Davey. While Davey served in Cameron's government and is plausible as a liberal Orange Booker who won lots of ex Conservative home counties seats many of his members and MPs are more leftwing. Daisy Cooper was openly pushing tax rises at the LD conference for instance. It may require a more centre right leader like Cleverly for the Conservatives to reclaim that ground from the LDs though

    Just trying to out-Reform Reform just makes Reform look tempting. The Tories could be pushing on being the pro-business, pro-innovation, sensible-with-your-money party.

    They should do lots of, "We welcome people who can make a contribution to this country, while being tough on illegal immigration." They've got a good story to tell with party leaders like Sunak and Badenoch.

    Instead, it's just endless "not seeing another white face" and "deport 750,000", but if you hate immigrants, Reform UK hate them harder. Or it's "leave the ECHR" and "abolish the Sentencing Council", lots of abolish something that the Daily Telegraph invents headlines about, rather than offering any positive solutions to the country.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,225
    HYUFD said:

    All hail the brilliance of Sir Ed Davey.

    He is endlessly sneered at by mainly Tories as he quietly goes about building a machine to win seats and build a base...

    I thought the Tory conference would be bad, I had no idea it would be this bad. You cannot outflank refuk to the right and yet that is still the Badenoch play. The Big Policy Announcements ripping up the work of their own governments - Coutinho slagging off the policies of SofS Coutinho being the funniest of the lot.

    And then the Thatcher worship. A fucking museum this year. Of a woman who would not be welcome in today's Tory party as despite her economic policies the aim was to lift working people - a very strong safety net to catch the people at the bottom, significant investment into regions, Britain at the heart of international order, free trade. All now heresy in todays ReformCosplay and ScrewtheUnion party.
    While the Conservatives are suffering (largely self-inflicted woe) the Lib Dems should not be feeling smug.

    We have two main parties, both very very unpopular. Cui bono? Not the Lib Dems. They've been eclipsed by the latest Farage vehicle, content to be the approved party of Waitrose shoppers in leafy suburbs, uncontaminated by the need to appeal to the Great Unwashed, unsullied by the vulgarity of popular support.

    Which is a shame, because, for all their wrongness about many things, I think the Lib Dems would be far better/less bad for the country than Prime Minister Nigel Farage, which is what we may end up with after the next election.
    Voting LD is now a marker of having made it to the upper middle class, living in Surrey or the Cotswolds or Tunbridge Wells or SW London, shopping at Waitrose etc much like voting Tory used to be something to aspire to.

    Voting Reform by contrast is now as common as voting Labour used to be. Something your plumber or the binmen did.
    Although I generally agree with this post @hyufd you can over do the upper middle class bit. Most of these posh areas are still predominantly non-posh. Guildford for instance is full of Victorian terraces, council estates, modern housing estates etc and outside of that you get the villages which have the posh houses. In area they are much bigger, but in population density they are not and they are still predominantly Tory. For instance we monitor the ballot boxes when opened at the GE. I live in a posh village and have posh villages around me. All those boxes were either Tory or neck and neck. The point is you win the centre and mitigate the damage in the villages.

    Guildford will have many more upper middle class voters than most other areas, but they won't be a majority except in a few villages.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,078
    Andy_JS said:

    "Digital ID cards pave way for £600m tax grab
    HMRC hopes to use online identification to secure unpaid revenue and prevent ‘errors’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/07/digital-id-cards-pave-way-for-600m-tax-grab

    LOL
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,426
    Eabhal said:

    The best motoring tax would be a flat £1 charge per journey.

    That would have the effect of dissuading people from stopping for breaks on long motorway journeys, making accidents from tiredness more likely.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,461
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @bestforbritain.org‬

    Wow. Robert Jenrick doubles down by branding a black journalist's questions "ridiculous" and saying that the problem is not his comments, but "journalists like you who pop up and try to knock me down", adding that "this is the reason why terrorist attacks happen". ~AA

    https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.org/post/3m2lqc3tsak2g

    How very Trumpian.

    (Actually, JD Vance spun exactly the same line of bullshit last week...)
    I don't think Kemi's position can be rescued, but if it can it requires her to remove Jenrick from the shadow front bench.
    He should Tory off and join the Fukkers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,461

    Eabhal said:

    The best motoring tax would be a flat £1 charge per journey.

    That would have the effect of dissuading people from stopping for breaks on long motorway journeys, making accidents from tiredness more likely.
    Not necessarily correct. A car computer treats any journey break of less than two hours as continuing the same journey.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,278
    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today gave the LOTO a dead easy ride this morning and she was not very good.

    Kemi had not worked out how to deal with the Jenrick 'no white faces, not my preferred country' comment. SFAICS she actually had to dispense with his shadow ministerial services in order to be credible and serious.

    Lord Hannan:

    https://x.com/danieljhannan/status/1975484786308468786?s=12

    “No one falls for selective reporting any more. We can read @RobertJenrick's comments for ourselves, and see what he said, namely that ethnic enclaves are a sign of failure.
    There was a time when mischievous Guardian headlines could do real damage, but that power has vanished.”
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827
    Scott_xP said:

    @bestforbritain.org‬

    Wow. Robert Jenrick doubles down by branding a black journalist's questions "ridiculous" and saying that the problem is not his comments, but "journalists like you who pop up and try to knock me down", adding that "this is the reason why terrorist attacks happen". ~AA

    https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.org/post/3m2lqc3tsak2g

    Is he actually insane ?
Sign In or Register to comment.