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Robert Jenrick, a man of letters? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,728
edited October 4 in General
Robert Jenrick, a man of letters? – politicalbetting.com

NEW: Allies of Robert Jenrick are collecting no confidence letters from Conservative MPs calling for party leader Kemi Badenoch to quit, The i Paper has been told.https://t.co/mNBCYDRFTQ

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264
    Nah
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,483
    He has collected letters from every MP who likes him.

    Next week he hopes to make it to double figures.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,286
    The MPs vote last time was hopelessly split. There’s not an obvious unifying flag bearer for the Tory party at the moment.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,597

    I'm not sure Starmer can lead any initiative for the next 4 years, of any sort. He's held in contempt by almost everyone, so cannot command any following or loyalty. He will remain in office but not in power.

    Essentially what that means is he'll run confidence and supply for his own government, despite having a 'landslide' majority.

    It has felt to me that over the last few weeks he has changed into a “place-holder” in position until someone emerges to take over. How amazing to think the huge majority he had and what he could do with it and yet it’s just a big pile of inertia and muddle. My personal worry though is that he gets replaced by someone capable from the left so I hope he stays.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,298
    Scott_xP said:

    He has collected letters from every MP who likes him.

    Next week he hopes to make it to double figures.

    From the header-linked story:-

    Sources said up to 12 letters of no confidence had already been written, but are yet to be submitted to Bob Blackman. He is chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee and would normally file letters until the threshold for challenge had been reached. By holding on to the letters, the allies of Jenrick remain in greater control of any potential challenge.

    Recent rule changes now require a move by 30 per cent of the Parliamentary party or 36 letters of no-confidence. They would then hold a ballot.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-plotting-replace-badenoch-jenrick-3955742
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,104
    boulay said:

    I'm not sure Starmer can lead any initiative for the next 4 years, of any sort. He's held in contempt by almost everyone, so cannot command any following or loyalty. He will remain in office but not in power.

    Essentially what that means is he'll run confidence and supply for his own government, despite having a 'landslide' majority.

    It has felt to me that over the last few weeks he has changed into a “place-holder” in position until someone emerges to take over. How amazing to think the huge majority he had and what he could do with it and yet it’s just a big pile of inertia and muddle. My personal worry though is that he gets replaced by someone capable from the left so I hope he stays.
    Looking at the rest of the losers around him I doubt you have much to worry about.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,503
    edited October 4

    I'm not sure Starmer can lead any initiative for the next 4 years, of any sort. He's held in contempt by almost everyone, so cannot command any following or loyalty. He will remain in office but not in power.

    Essentially what that means is he'll run confidence and supply for his own government, despite having a 'landslide' majority.

    Suppose you are an advocate for a single-issue cause. Something innocuous like planting broadleaf trees.

    Normally you'd be desperate to win government support for your cause. You've dedicated years to trying to win attention for the importance of planting native woodlands. Do you really want Starmer to notice you?

    Isn't there a risk that if Starmer decides to devote a morning to leadenly extolling the virtues of British trees for British woodlands, that by the afternoon the enraged people of Britain will be applying chainsaw to trunk of every woke oak tree that they can find.

    I think you'd lay low for a while.
  • How many surgeons live in council houses?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,879
    edited October 4

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    The headline of the thread made me think, rather, of the British newspaper reports of the demise of a - and possibly more than one - Parisian philosopher-intellectual headlined as "Man of French Letters".

    (I hasten to say that this is not related to Mr Jenrick.)
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,731
    moonshine said:

    The MPs vote last time was hopelessly split. There’s not an obvious unifying flag bearer for the Tory party at the moment.

    Chris Phip was on the BBC offering to replace the ECHR with the 1689 Bill of Rights. He has his finger on the pulse so should be considered.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,731
    edited October 4

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Probably none as Council Houses don't really exist now. They were hived off to Social Landlords and 'affordable' housing.

    And good morning to all including someone call Ad Hominem who seems to get name checked a lot in the evenings.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,503

    I'm not sure Starmer can lead any initiative for the next 4 years, of any sort. He's held in contempt by almost everyone, so cannot command any following or loyalty. He will remain in office but not in power.

    Essentially what that means is he'll run confidence and supply for his own government, despite having a 'landslide' majority.

    It's a bizarre situation for Labour to feel adrift (beyond Spend More) and Starmer to look so lacking in authority after such a landslide victory.
    Starmer's leadership ratings in opposition were poor. Very poor. Against an incumbent government that had been in office for 14 years, that has given the country Liz Truss, he only just scraped over one-third of the vote.

    The aberration is not his unpopularity, but the landslide majority, and the source of that aberration is obvious: FPTP and the public's overriding desire to punish the Tories.

    The public seem to really resent that FPTP gave then the choice between tolerating a Conservative Party that foisted Truss onto the country and Keir Starmer. They are going to want to make up for that at the next election. Keir Starmer will be crushed. The only question is whether it is Reform who benefit - as indicated by current opinion polls - or if some other party (or leader) can seize the moment.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,590
    Kemi could get her loyalists to submit letters now, so that she can win the confidence vote and put Generic back in his box.

    However, I can spot one or two flaws in this strategy.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,827

    Scott_xP said:

    He has collected letters from every MP who likes him.

    Next week he hopes to make it to double figures.

    From the header-linked story:-

    Sources said up to 12 letters of no confidence had already been written, but are yet to be submitted to Bob Blackman. He is chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee and would normally file letters until the threshold for challenge had been reached. By holding on to the letters, the allies of Jenrick remain in greater control of any potential challenge.

    Recent rule changes now require a move by 30 per cent of the Parliamentary party or 36 letters of no-confidence. They would then hold a ballot.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-plotting-replace-badenoch-jenrick-3955742
    30% is quite a high bar, requiring almost everyone who is sceptical of a leader to act. It's a very non trivial barrier to surmount, compared with the travails of getting only 15% of letters in.

    I wonder if the additional hurdle makes Badenoch a lot safer than we might suppose and brings the Conservatives quite a lot closer to Labour in terms of leader safety.

    Clear betting implications here.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,500
    Battlebus said:

    moonshine said:

    The MPs vote last time was hopelessly split. There’s not an obvious unifying flag bearer for the Tory party at the moment.

    Chris Phip was on the BBC offering to replace the ECHR with the 1689 Bill of Rights. He has his finger on the pulse so should be considered.
    I believe he has a pulse so should be considered is the standard Tory formulation nowadays.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,503
    Pro_Rata said:

    Scott_xP said:

    He has collected letters from every MP who likes him.

    Next week he hopes to make it to double figures.

    From the header-linked story:-

    Sources said up to 12 letters of no confidence had already been written, but are yet to be submitted to Bob Blackman. He is chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee and would normally file letters until the threshold for challenge had been reached. By holding on to the letters, the allies of Jenrick remain in greater control of any potential challenge.

    Recent rule changes now require a move by 30 per cent of the Parliamentary party or 36 letters of no-confidence. They would then hold a ballot.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-plotting-replace-badenoch-jenrick-3955742
    30% is quite a high bar, requiring almost everyone who is sceptical of a leader to act. It's a very non trivial barrier to surmount, compared with the travails of getting only 15% of letters in.

    I wonder if the additional hurdle makes Badenoch a lot safer than we might suppose and brings the Conservatives quite a lot closer to Labour in terms of leader safety.

    Clear betting implications here.
    It has a dual effect. On the one hand it makes it harder to trigger a vote. But when a vote does happen, it is much more likely to unseat the incumbent.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,353

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,298
    Pro_Rata said:

    Scott_xP said:

    He has collected letters from every MP who likes him.

    Next week he hopes to make it to double figures.

    From the header-linked story:-

    Sources said up to 12 letters of no confidence had already been written, but are yet to be submitted to Bob Blackman. He is chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee and would normally file letters until the threshold for challenge had been reached. By holding on to the letters, the allies of Jenrick remain in greater control of any potential challenge.

    Recent rule changes now require a move by 30 per cent of the Parliamentary party or 36 letters of no-confidence. They would then hold a ballot.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-plotting-replace-badenoch-jenrick-3955742
    30% is quite a high bar, requiring almost everyone who is sceptical of a leader to act. It's a very non trivial barrier to surmount, compared with the travails of getting only 15% of letters in.

    I wonder if the additional hurdle makes Badenoch a lot safer than we might suppose and brings the Conservatives quite a lot closer to Labour in terms of leader safety.

    Clear betting implications here.
    Yes, especially when the awkward squad has no common philosophy, unlike say the ERG. And if the 1922 has no sight of the letters, Blackman cannot follow Graham Brady (old lady) and sidle up to Kemi in the division lobbies and warn her to consider her position.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,721
    edited October 4
    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,056

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,055

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    Performative cruelty wins votes.

    And please don't confuse Robert Jenrick with that similarly names, daft politician Jobert Renrick who trumpeted placing more and more Asylum Seekers into Holiday Inn Express hotels.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,185

    Pro_Rata said:

    Scott_xP said:

    He has collected letters from every MP who likes him.

    Next week he hopes to make it to double figures.

    From the header-linked story:-

    Sources said up to 12 letters of no confidence had already been written, but are yet to be submitted to Bob Blackman. He is chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee and would normally file letters until the threshold for challenge had been reached. By holding on to the letters, the allies of Jenrick remain in greater control of any potential challenge.

    Recent rule changes now require a move by 30 per cent of the Parliamentary party or 36 letters of no-confidence. They would then hold a ballot.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-plotting-replace-badenoch-jenrick-3955742
    30% is quite a high bar, requiring almost everyone who is sceptical of a leader to act. It's a very non trivial barrier to surmount, compared with the travails of getting only 15% of letters in.

    I wonder if the additional hurdle makes Badenoch a lot safer than we might suppose and brings the Conservatives quite a lot closer to Labour in terms of leader safety.

    Clear betting implications here.
    It'd be comically fitting if Jenrick manages to topple Badenoch, then Cleverly wins a leadership contest.
    Though whoever loses this leadership contest need not despair. Plenty of time for another one before the General Election.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 4
    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,485
    Scott_xP said:

    He has collected letters from every MP who likes him.

    Next week he hopes to make it to double figures.

    Perhaps double down figures?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,485
    Carnyx said:

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    The headline of the thread made me think, rather, of the British newspaper reports of the demise of a - and possibly more than one - Parisian philosopher-intellectual headlined as "Man of French Letters".

    (I hasten to say that this is not related to Mr Jenrick.)
    You do not condom him?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,721
    moonshine said:

    The MPs vote last time was hopelessly split. There’s not an obvious unifying flag bearer for the Tory party at the moment.

    Cleverly closest to that, he was loyal to Boris to the end, loyal to Truss to the end, loyal to Rishi to the end and is now a Kemi loyalist on the whole though a bit less hardline than she now is against net zero and the ECHR.

    Cleverly could also get Labour and LD tactical votes against Reform in Tory held seats Kemi and Jenrick can't
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    The arguments that the left used when the Tories suggested it was that (I) it would break up communities; (II) it was unfair to kick people out of their houses; others argued that it created a disincentive to improve your finances.

    No one seemed to consider that state resources were limited and that they should be deployed to those who need them the most

    I’d avoid a cliff edge - but perhaps a sliding scale so that at, say, 67% of the median wage you are paying current levels of subsidised rents up to, say, 120% of median wage where you pay the full market rent
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264
    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,926

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Apparently he has TWO council houses

    🤷🏼‍♂️

    We need to go back to my suggestion. Council houses are awarded to Britons more on merit and less on need

    Merit means a mix of: military service, no criminal record, English language, length of connection to Britain (eg those born here have more rights than recent entrants) - and so forth

    This especially applies to social housing in desirable areas like central London
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,174

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    This is the problem with basing your decisions on economic growth and/or productivity (they are different things). They are both largely out of your control in the short term and so your plans are constantly disrupted.

    I think we need to lose this odd assumption that growth and productivity are how you balance the budget. It's actually about balancing spending, tax and borrowing - and this is necessary and possible whatever the size of your economy. If we are to have fiscal rules, perhaps a better one is that the structural deficit is zero in the next financial year assuming no economic growth.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,721
    Pro_Rata said:

    Scott_xP said:

    He has collected letters from every MP who likes him.

    Next week he hopes to make it to double figures.

    From the header-linked story:-

    Sources said up to 12 letters of no confidence had already been written, but are yet to be submitted to Bob Blackman. He is chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee and would normally file letters until the threshold for challenge had been reached. By holding on to the letters, the allies of Jenrick remain in greater control of any potential challenge.

    Recent rule changes now require a move by 30 per cent of the Parliamentary party or 36 letters of no-confidence. They would then hold a ballot.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-plotting-replace-badenoch-jenrick-3955742
    30% is quite a high bar, requiring almost everyone who is sceptical of a leader to act. It's a very non trivial barrier to surmount, compared with the travails of getting only 15% of letters in.

    I wonder if the additional hurdle makes Badenoch a lot safer than we might suppose and brings the Conservatives quite a lot closer to Labour in terms of leader safety.

    Clear betting implications here.
    Starmer is only safe as Burnham is not an MP.

    If Burnham was an MP again he would almost certainly get enough nominations from Labour MPs to challenge Starmer then comfortably beat Starmer in the Labour membership vote
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,731

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Just having a look at my local Social Housing organisation, there are mixed development where there are renters, owners and shared ownership. So there may be a confusion between 'Council' (which doesn't exist) and 'Social Housing' - and then a further confusion between rent, owner or shared ownership. But like all of these soundbites, it's the trigger rather than the facts that count.

    Anyway shared ownership, part own, part rent is limited to those earning under £90K. So renting will be a lesser amount than that. But you'd have to establish the facts first which are often missing or misinterpreted when feelings are running high.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,879
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    The headline of the thread made me think, rather, of the British newspaper reports of the demise of a - and possibly more than one - Parisian philosopher-intellectual headlined as "Man of French Letters".

    (I hasten to say that this is not related to Mr Jenrick.)
    You do not condom him?
    Feeling too protective, even bearing in mind the apocryphal story about the French translation on Houses of Parliament brown sauce.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,055
    Leon said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Apparently he has TWO council houses

    🤷🏼‍♂️

    We need to go back to my suggestion. Council houses are awarded to Britons more on merit and less on need

    Merit means a mix of: military service, no criminal record, English language, length of connection to Britain (eg those born here have more rights than recent entrants) - and so forth

    This especially applies to social housing in desirable areas like central London
    I think you might be living in a pre-1979 bubble. Rachmanesque landlords hold all the cards (and former council houses) now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,485
    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Probably none as Council Houses don't really exist now. They were hived off to Social Landlords and 'affordable' housing.

    And good morning to all including someone call Ad Hominem who seems to get name checked a lot in the evenings.
    Looking out of my window I can see six houses owned and managed by the council.

    There are eight in sight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,721
    Leon said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Apparently he has TWO council houses

    🤷🏼‍♂️

    We need to go back to my suggestion. Council houses are awarded to Britons more on merit and less on need

    Merit means a mix of: military service, no criminal record, English language, length of connection to Britain (eg those born here have more rights than recent entrants) - and so forth

    This especially applies to social housing in desirable areas like central London
    In terms of place in the social housing waiting list absolutely. Though those with children would obviously still be prioritised, especially if British born and raised in the local area
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,286

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves should abolish the OBR. Its record is terrible and it would buy her some breathing room.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,721

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    They can be Deputy PM or Deputy Leader mascot to the white male Labour Leader of the Opposition or Labour PM
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,298

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,893

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    Well they do have almost 4x as many MPs as the Tories...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,093
    moonshine said:

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves should abolish the OBR. Its record is terrible and it would buy her some breathing room.
    How very Trumpian...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,721
    edited October 4

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

    Personally I would cut off child
    benefit at £100k or above household income.

    I would then use the savings to increase child benefit for the majority of parents who still claim it
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264
    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Just having a look at my local Social Housing organisation, there are mixed development where there are renters, owners and shared ownership. So there may be a confusion between 'Council' (which doesn't exist) and 'Social Housing' - and then a further confusion between rent, owner or shared ownership. But like all of these soundbites, it's the trigger rather than the facts that count.

    Anyway shared ownership, part own, part rent is limited to those earning under £90K. So renting will be a lesser amount than that. But you'd have to establish the facts first which are often missing or misinterpreted when feelings are running high.
    Earning under £90k!?!

    When the median wage is, what, £27k!

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,101
    If they squeeze this contest in before Xmas, they can have the next one after May when Jenrick loses half the Tories’ council seats?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,893

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

    You want to get rid of public schooling??? That's very brave.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,495
    moonshine said:

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves should abolish the OBR. Its record is terrible and it would buy her some breathing room.
    She can’t but the manifesto and election promises should never have been made and need to be binned.

    What we should have had is 3p on income tax and reform of council tax to be based on estimated house price alongside removal of stamp duty.

    And vat should have been changed instead of employer ni
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,911

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    Really nothing like the extraordinary capacity of wetter than a fisherman's sock Tories to hate other Tories.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,185
    IanB2 said:

    If they squeeze this contest in before Xmas, they can have the next one after May when Jenrick loses half the Tories’ council seats?

    Ah, but if the clock resets in (say) January 2026, Jenrick will be immune from challenges until January 2027...

    (Though I note that the immunity is pretty theoretical. May, Johnson and Truss were all technically immune when they fell.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,485
    rcs1000 said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

    You want to get rid of public schooling??? That's very brave.
    It would be a comprehensive reform.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264
    edited October 4
    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves should abolish the OBR. Its record is terrible and it would buy her some breathing room.
    She can’t but the manifesto and election promises should never have been made and need to be binned.

    What we should have had is 3p on income tax and reform of council tax to be based on estimated house price alongside removal of stamp duty.

    And vat should have been changed instead of employer ni
    Doubt the valuation office could cope with that workload

    Edit: also the issue with council tax is the amount raised not who pays it.

    If you want to increase the amount raised by far and away the quickest and easiest way to do it is to add a couple of bands

    A revaluation doesn’t change anything except for redistribution which should be done based on income tax (or an asset tax) not based on the vagaries of what house people live in
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,767
    HYUFD said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

    Personally I would cut off child
    benefit at £100k or above household income.

    I would then use the savings to increase child benefit for the majority of parents who still claim it
    Presumably contingent on the savings being significant, though? John's comment about administrative costs and the benefits of universality on cohesion are still persuasive, no?

    (Also, huge thoughts for you and your wife at the moment, I haven't had a chance to say this yet).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,298

    Leon said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Apparently he has TWO council houses

    🤷🏼‍♂️

    We need to go back to my suggestion. Council houses are awarded to Britons more on merit and less on need

    Merit means a mix of: military service, no criminal record, English language, length of connection to Britain (eg those born here have more rights than recent entrants) - and so forth

    This especially applies to social housing in desirable areas like central London
    I think you might be living in a pre-1979 bubble. Rachmanesque landlords hold all the cards (and former council houses) now.
    pb trivia fans will already know that Rachman was landlord and lover of Mandy Rice-Davies of Profumo Affair fame, who gave pb MRDA (Mandy Rice-Davies applies) – well, he would [say that], wouldn't he?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,306

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    Really nothing like the extraordinary capacity of wetter than a fisherman's sock Tories to hate other Tories.
    I thought the approved PB term was otter’s pocket?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,731

    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Just having a look at my local Social Housing organisation, there are mixed development where there are renters, owners and shared ownership. So there may be a confusion between 'Council' (which doesn't exist) and 'Social Housing' - and then a further confusion between rent, owner or shared ownership. But like all of these soundbites, it's the trigger rather than the facts that count.

    Anyway shared ownership, part own, part rent is limited to those earning under £90K. So renting will be a lesser amount than that. But you'd have to establish the facts first which are often missing or misinterpreted when feelings are running high.
    Earning under £90k!?!

    When the median wage is, what, £27k!

    London and South East where on £90K you'd struggle.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,298

    IanB2 said:

    If they squeeze this contest in before Xmas, they can have the next one after May when Jenrick loses half the Tories’ council seats?

    Ah, but if the clock resets in (say) January 2026, Jenrick will be immune from challenges until January 2027...

    (Though I note that the immunity is pretty theoretical. May, Johnson and Truss were all technically immune when they fell.)
    And Mrs Thatcher had won the ballot that brought her down.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,485
    edited October 4

    IanB2 said:

    If they squeeze this contest in before Xmas, they can have the next one after May when Jenrick loses half the Tories’ council seats?

    Ah, but if the clock resets in (say) January 2026, Jenrick will be immune from challenges until January 2027...

    (Though I note that the immunity is pretty theoretical. May, Johnson and Truss were all technically immune when they fell.)
    And Mrs Thatcher had won the ballot that brought her down.
    She actually joked about it in her last PMQs. Some random Lib Dem asked her if she was a fan of PR in light of the result and she replied, 'I'm sure the honorable lady will understand I am a firm supporter of First Past the Post!'
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,055
    HYUFD said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

    Personally I would cut off child
    benefit at £100k or above household income.

    I would then use the savings to increase child benefit for the majority of parents who still claim it
    The postwar social safety net including universal healthcare set out by the Attlee Government is a failed project in every way shape or form. The Conservative Government between 2010 and 2024 crashed the project to write-off status. Whether this was cock-up (Boris Johnson handing out cash and benefits like confetti) or conspiracy ( because they hated the hand put society) is debatable.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,353
    ydoethur said:

    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Probably none as Council Houses don't really exist now. They were hived off to Social Landlords and 'affordable' housing.

    And good morning to all including someone call Ad Hominem who seems to get name checked a lot in the evenings.
    Looking out of my window I can see six houses owned and managed by the council.

    There are eight in sight.
    Indeed, near me Waverley council still has council houses. There are HA ones too.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,911
    moonshine said:

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves should abolish the OBR. Its record is terrible and it would buy her some breathing room.
    I don't think she could do that. The markets would see it as an attempt to push through massive increases in debt, and we'd have a sovereign debt crisis.

    What she absolutely should do is challenge them to successfully 'predict' the past. Create a model that predicts the past with reasonable accurracy, and you can be allowed to use that model (for now) to predict the future. Fail to do that, and you have effectively delegitimised yourself.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264
    Battlebus said:

    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Just having a look at my local Social Housing organisation, there are mixed development where there are renters, owners and shared ownership. So there may be a confusion between 'Council' (which doesn't exist) and 'Social Housing' - and then a further confusion between rent, owner or shared ownership. But like all of these soundbites, it's the trigger rather than the facts that count.

    Anyway shared ownership, part own, part rent is limited to those earning under £90K. So renting will be a lesser amount than that. But you'd have to establish the facts first which are often missing or misinterpreted when feelings are running high.
    Earning under £90k!?!

    When the median wage is, what, £27k!

    London and South East where on £90K you'd struggle.
    The median wage in London is £47.5k
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,074

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    and the Tories are sitting where in the polls exactly?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264
    edited October 4
    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    and the Tories are sitting where in the polls exactly?
    Interesting. You are implicitly saying that white male leaders are intrinsically better than BAME or female leaders
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,485
    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    and the Tories are sitting where in the polls exactly?
    You want get Gdansk for mentioning their position in Poles.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,298
    rcs1000 said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

    You want to get rid of public schooling??? That's very brave.
    Where has it got us? In 1870, Britain was the richest and most powerful nation on Earth, but after 150 years of compulsory, free education for 5 to 12 year-olds, we can barely afford to park planes on our carriers or buy Skodas for SEND children.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_Education_Act_1870
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,093

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    Really nothing like the extraordinary capacity of wetter than a fisherman's sock Tories to hate other Tories.
    Jenrick has done plenty to be worthy of opprobrium.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,767

    Battlebus said:

    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Just having a look at my local Social Housing organisation, there are mixed development where there are renters, owners and shared ownership. So there may be a confusion between 'Council' (which doesn't exist) and 'Social Housing' - and then a further confusion between rent, owner or shared ownership. But like all of these soundbites, it's the trigger rather than the facts that count.

    Anyway shared ownership, part own, part rent is limited to those earning under £90K. So renting will be a lesser amount than that. But you'd have to establish the facts first which are often missing or misinterpreted when feelings are running high.
    Earning under £90k!?!

    When the median wage is, what, £27k!

    London and South East where on £90K you'd struggle.
    The median wage in London is £47.5k
    Which, on balance, says more about the current state of our housing market than it does about avaricious surgeons.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,485
    maxh said:

    Battlebus said:

    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Just having a look at my local Social Housing organisation, there are mixed development where there are renters, owners and shared ownership. So there may be a confusion between 'Council' (which doesn't exist) and 'Social Housing' - and then a further confusion between rent, owner or shared ownership. But like all of these soundbites, it's the trigger rather than the facts that count.

    Anyway shared ownership, part own, part rent is limited to those earning under £90K. So renting will be a lesser amount than that. But you'd have to establish the facts first which are often missing or misinterpreted when feelings are running high.
    Earning under £90k!?!

    When the median wage is, what, £27k!

    London and South East where on £90K you'd struggle.
    The median wage in London is £47.5k
    Which, on balance, says more about the current state of our housing market than it does about avaricious surgeons.
    Are you saying they get a decent cut?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,055

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    Really nothing like the extraordinary capacity of wetter than a fisherman's sock Tories to hate other Tories.
    Any broad church has its fair share of conflicting ideologies and characters. All those years I paid my subs to the Labour Party I still f*****' despised the likes of Eric Heffer, Dave Nellist and Jeremy Corbyn. I had more in common with Thatcherites than I did Militant Tendency.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,241
    HYUFD said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

    Personally I would cut off child
    benefit at £100k or above household income.

    I would then use the savings to increase child benefit for the majority of parents who still claim it
    While not disagreeing (if anything I would set lower) you need to be wary of setting cliff edges. There are far too many already and specifically a big one at £100k where the effective tax rate is already 60% with the PA illumination. Better to try as much as possible to smooth the tax curve.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,298

    moonshine said:

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves should abolish the OBR. Its record is terrible and it would buy her some breathing room.
    I don't think she could do that. The markets would see it as an attempt to push through massive increases in debt, and we'd have a sovereign debt crisis.

    What she absolutely should do is challenge them to successfully 'predict' the past. Create a model that predicts the past with reasonable accurracy, and you can be allowed to use that model (for now) to predict the future. Fail to do that, and you have effectively delegitimised yourself.
    Yes, Reeves cannot abolish the OBR because, as Liz Truss discovered when she sidelined it, the markets smell a rat and panic, and not in a good way. It must remain the case that George Osborne's political wheeze designed to trap Labour has removed only a Conservative Prime Minister.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,911
    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    and the Tories are sitting where in the polls exactly?
    About par with Labour now in some.

    I think allies of anyone are probably right to collect letters themselves, then send them en masse. I don't really trust the 1922 committee, didn't under Brady, don't now.

    However, I think Kemi is going to have a pretty good conference (and that is my hope too). Perhaps even a modest polling boost from it.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264
    maxh said:

    Battlebus said:

    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Just having a look at my local Social Housing organisation, there are mixed development where there are renters, owners and shared ownership. So there may be a confusion between 'Council' (which doesn't exist) and 'Social Housing' - and then a further confusion between rent, owner or shared ownership. But like all of these soundbites, it's the trigger rather than the facts that count.

    Anyway shared ownership, part own, part rent is limited to those earning under £90K. So renting will be a lesser amount than that. But you'd have to establish the facts first which are often missing or misinterpreted when feelings are running high.
    Earning under £90k!?!

    When the median wage is, what, £27k!

    London and South East where on £90K you'd struggle.
    The median wage in London is £47.5k
    Which, on balance, says more about the current state of our housing market than it does about avaricious surgeons.
    My point was that government resources shouldn’t be focused on people on twice the median wage. Nothing to do with any individual.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,298
    Speaking of the Chumocracy, recent Reform convert Danny Kruger used to be David Cameron's SpAd because, inevitably, they'd both been at Eton.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,420
    Coming to the UK in 2029 if it votes Farage.


    "The hurried actions of those working for DOGE collapsed vital services, leaving government officials backpedaling. On September 24 the Associated Press examined the effect of DOGE on the General Services Administration (GSA), an agency established in the 1940s to manage the thousands of workplaces used by federal employees. DOGE employees targeted the GSA as a prime example of waste, fraud, and abuse. They abruptly canceled almost half of the leases for government space—without telling the tenants—and called for generating savings by selling off federally owned buildings. They also cut staff at headquarters by 79%, portfolio managers by 65%, and facilities managers by 35%.

    The Associated Press reports that 131 leases expired without the government actually leaving the office space, costing the agencies steep fees. Now officials are asking hundreds of GSA workers to come back after what the Associated Press says “amounts to a seven-month paid vacation.” Chad Becker, a former real estate official with the GSA, told the Associated Press: “Ultimately, the outcome was the agency was left broken and understaffed. They didn’t have the people they needed to carry out basic functions.” "

    Heather Cox Richardson email
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,767

    maxh said:

    Battlebus said:

    Battlebus said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Just having a look at my local Social Housing organisation, there are mixed development where there are renters, owners and shared ownership. So there may be a confusion between 'Council' (which doesn't exist) and 'Social Housing' - and then a further confusion between rent, owner or shared ownership. But like all of these soundbites, it's the trigger rather than the facts that count.

    Anyway shared ownership, part own, part rent is limited to those earning under £90K. So renting will be a lesser amount than that. But you'd have to establish the facts first which are often missing or misinterpreted when feelings are running high.
    Earning under £90k!?!

    When the median wage is, what, £27k!

    London and South East where on £90K you'd struggle.
    The median wage in London is £47.5k
    Which, on balance, says more about the current state of our housing market than it does about avaricious surgeons.
    My point was that government resources shouldn’t be focused on people on twice the median wage. Nothing to do with any individual.
    No I know, and I largely agree. I was making a somewhat flippant point that someone may be on twice the median wage and yet still struggle to purchase a house in London without any unearned wealth. Which indicates how broken our housing market is (or, as many on here like to describe it, touches on the housing theory of everything).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,055
    IanB2 said:

    If they squeeze this contest in before Xmas, they can have the next one after May when Jenrick loses half the Tories’ council seats?

    As metaphors go, aren't they more likely to squeeze out Jenrick before Xmas?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,093
    edited October 4

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves will deliver a Budget that reintroduces every possible means of taxation that isn't income tax.

    From the window tax to a dog-ownership tax.

    It will be hugely unpopular as a result. The risk is for Starmer that he stands by the hodgepodge, when he should have replaced Reeves after her first effort was such a dud. Standing by her puts him at huge risk that Mr Bond Market says he's had enough. In which case, they will both have to go.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,055

    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    and the Tories are sitting where in the polls exactly?
    About par with Labour now in some.

    I think allies of anyone are probably right to collect letters themselves, then send them en masse. I don't really trust the 1922 committee, didn't under Brady, don't now.

    However, I think Kemi is going to have a pretty good conference (and that is my hope too). Perhaps even a modest polling boost from it.

    I hope so too. Anything that puts Jenrick back in his box and takes some points from Reform is fine by me.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 4
    I asked Sora to make "Lord of the Rings" more Gen Z 👇

    Here's Lord of the Rizz.

    https://x.com/Solopopsss/status/1974075369071493519

    Coming to Disney+ or Netflix soon....
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,074

    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    and the Tories are sitting where in the polls exactly?
    Interesting. You are implicitly saying that white male leaders are intrinsically better than BAME or female leaders
    No, I am simply making the observation that having 3 BAME leaders in a row might not be entirely unconnected with the fact that half the Tories voters appear to have switched to Reform.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,420
    Met office says UK provisionally broke lowest ever October pressure reading on land.

    947.9
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264

    Speaking of the Chumocracy, recent Reform convert Danny Kruger used to be David Cameron's SpAd because, inevitably, they'd both been at Eton.

    Danny Kruger was a SpAd because he is a thoughtful and interesting guy, not “because” they had both been at Eton
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 4
    Remember the discussion of the plod won't check back more than 2hrs for bike thefts because too time consuming checking CCTV or something...

    Announcing RF-DETR Seg: the new SoTA for real-time instance segmentation. It achieves huge accuracy gains (+8 mAP) over the best YOLO models with similar speed and is a 10-100x speed improvement over prior Transformer-based segmentation models while maintaining similar accuracy.

    https://x.com/braddwyer/status/1974107031679492146
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 4

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves will deliver a Budget that reintroduces every possible means of taxation that isn't income tax.

    From the window tax to a dog-ownership tax.

    It will be hugely unpopular as a result. The risk is for Starmer that he stands by the hodgepodge, when he should have replaced Reeves after her first effort was such a dud. Standing by her puts him at huge risk that Mr Bond Market says he's had enough. In which case, they will both have to go.

    From the point of view of the ordinary citizen the worry has to be these taxes get slipped in, in isolation its bits and pieces here and there, but in totality its start to really add up and politicians always promise I will get rid of these taxes if you elect me, but they rarely do. We just end up with more and more hodgepodge of extra stealth taxation.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,264
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    and the Tories are sitting where in the polls exactly?
    Interesting. You are implicitly saying that white male leaders are intrinsically better than BAME or female leaders
    No, I am simply making the observation that having 3 BAME leaders in a row might not be entirely unconnected with the fact that half the Tories voters appear to have switched to Reform.
    So why is Labour where it is?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,241

    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    and the Tories are sitting where in the polls exactly?
    About par with Labour now in some.

    I think allies of anyone are probably right to collect letters themselves, then send them en masse. I don't really trust the 1922 committee, didn't under Brady, don't now.

    However, I think Kemi is going to have a pretty good conference (and that is my hope too). Perhaps even a modest polling boost from it.

    Traditionally if you are going to have a defection you set it up for your opponents Conference. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a defection to Reform and that is outside of Kemi's control.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,208

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    Does Truss actually count? :lol::lol::lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,208
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    The headline of the thread made me think, rather, of the British newspaper reports of the demise of a - and possibly more than one - Parisian philosopher-intellectual headlined as "Man of French Letters".

    (I hasten to say that this is not related to Mr Jenrick.)
    You do not condom him?
    Ay, there's the rubber.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,185

    HYUFD said:

    I agree with TSE if as is likely the May local elections are bad for the Conservatives that is when Jenrick's supporters would make a move and initiate a VONC but not before. However as Michael Heseltine discovered the assassin rarely wears the Crown in Tory leadership contests.

    If Jenrick supporters therefore forced a VONC which Kemi lost, I would then expect Kemi loyalist MPs to back Cleverly to succeed her. As last year the combined Kemi and Cleverly backing Tory MPs were 2/3 of the Conservatives parliamentary party that would then make Cleverly leader by coronation

    Three BAME leaders one after enough. And three women PMs. How’s Labour doing?
    Does Truss actually count? :lol::lol::lol:
    If she doesn't count, it might explain her budgetary plans.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,128

    moonshine said:

    One person with knowledge of the pre-budget debate in Downing Street said: “There’s a political risk that No 10 are increasingly worried about, that we’re dying a slow death by the manifesto pledges, and the budget will look like a hodgepodge.”

    Reeves remains firmly committed to the manifesto promises, however, according to colleagues, and is not asking officials to cost how much specific tax-raising measures that would involve breaching them in November’s budget might raise.

    Having carried out a stocktake of its productivity forecasts over the summer, the OBR is understood to have presented Reeves with a significantly more pessimistic preliminary growth forecast last month.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/04/rachel-reeves-urged-to-break-manifesto-pledges-to-avoid-pasty-tax-budget

    Reeves should abolish the OBR. Its record is terrible and it would buy her some breathing room.
    I don't think she could do that. The markets would see it as an attempt to push through massive increases in debt, and we'd have a sovereign debt crisis.

    What she absolutely should do is challenge them to successfully 'predict' the past. Create a model that predicts the past with reasonable accurracy, and you can be allowed to use that model (for now) to predict the future. Fail to do that, and you have effectively delegitimised yourself.
    all models are wrong, some are useful
  • eekeek Posts: 31,495
    HYUFD said:

    How many surgeons live in council houses?

    Maybe quite a lot, I don't believe there is a maximum salary for social housing. Once you have the house you get to stay there.

    I'm not sure we know why they came to the country - if it was as refugees it might explain the council house.
    I can’t help but feel that there should be a maximum salary. Why should public resources be used to subsidise the housing costs for those that can afford?
    Why should public resources be used to subsidise childcare for the highly-paid, where the cut-off is at £100,000 a year? That is for either parent, so provided mum is on £99,000 a year and dad gets £98,000, the family still qualifies for 15 hours a week of free childcare per preschool child, and that is on top of the 15 hours for which there is no income limit.

    Routinely, posh papers and accountants advise the rich (or HENRYs, high-earning, not rich yet) to use salary sacrifice to keep their income below the threshold and at the same time enjoy the Chancellor's largesse on private pensions.

    Traditionally those on the left welcome universality of benefits because it means the well-off have skin in the game and will not seek to cut payments that go only to the poor. WFA is a good example. The argument for universality from the right is that it saves money on administration – paying benefits becomes more expensive where you need to check who qualifies.

    Personally I would cut off child
    benefit at £100k or above household income.

    I would then use the savings to increase child benefit for the majority of parents who still claim it
    The child benefit taper kicks off at £60,000 up from £50,000.

    If
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,208

    Jenrick. A man of letters.

    Arrange the letters T, U, C and N.

    "I did not send any confidence letter. It's not true! It's bullshit. I did not send any, I did not!

    "Oh, hi, Mark!"
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    What the actual f##k...

    One of the victims killed in yesterday's attack at a synagogue in Manchester was shot by police during their attempts to bring the unarmed attacker under control, officers have said

    https://x.com/rtenews/status/1974059019158630659
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