It must have been so strange being born British in the 1920s.
You are born into the global hegemon. An industrial juggernaut. The world's reserve currency. The largest empire ever known. The undisputed ruler of the waves.
R3 had a recording of her performing in some Broadway musical. Decent contralto, if rather warbley.
This narrative from young rightwingers is becoming increasingly common. It misses out just how many people of thar generation enjoyed the 60s and 70s, like many relatives of mine, as a huge relief.
Oh, I'm sure that's true.
But either way the culture shock must have been considerable.
I often think the sweet spot was someone born in the late 30s. That does presuppose that you didn’t suffer loss in the war, but you’d be generally too young to remember much of it. Teenager in the relative stability of the 50s. Still young enough to enjoy the 60s.
Men, yes. Women perhaps not so much.
Dad was born in 1939. Remembers snippets of the war but not much. Served in the guards rather than national service then straight into Wiltshire Police for 30 years. Retired at 56 with a huge pay off (restructuring) and has now been retired as long as he served.
Pretty sweet spot.
I was born in 1943. I thoroughly enjoyed the sixties, married in 1968. Three kids and five grandsons all living within walking distance of me. Fired in 1995 (long story) with big pay off and large fully inflation protected pension. I'm extremely lucky. In good health. Skiing next year. And I'm still alive to see the fantastic AI revolution. What a time to be alive! I think I hit the sweet spot.
Except you're going to die about five years before they solve longevity, reverse ageing and everyone lives until they're 190, or forever
So, maybe not such a sweet spot
If they do solve longevity and reverse aging in that timescale then none of us on this forum will be able to afford it. Even the lawyers
The last generation to live. Or the last generation to die. The 2030s are going to be quite the emotional rollercoaster.
I am reading THE SIMULATION HYPOTHESIS by Zirk
With every day that passes, this hypothesis - insane as it seems - makes more sense
I don’t know the book but am familiar with the concept. It’s essentially God for tech bros, no?
When I was young and glib, I fluctuated between atheist and agnostic and back again. But the more life I live, the more I realise that reality is very strange indeed, and it’s a profound mystery why there is something rather than nothing.
I remain unimpressed by the specific doctrine of the global religions. But I recognise that they are mere cultural masks over the face of a broader truth. My view these days is best summed up by the idea that we are all but divine ideas of the mind of God. The effervescent bubbles of consciousness flowing back into the waterfall you once described.
Bishop Berkeley's 'Three Dialogues between Hylas and Philonous', one of the great, funny and witty bits of 18th century philosophy, taking a line which greatly troubled Kant - he never quite managed to throw it off - more or less argues, and argues elegantly - it is not easy to refute - for more or less just this.
(Most people who have not read Berkeley assume that he is obviously wrong and easy to refute, like Samuel Johnson. They couldn't be more wrong.)
He just didn't quite take it to its logical endpoint. That we are simply waves on the ocean. We aren't divine ideas of God. That there is nothing other than consciousness. No God, or anything at all separate from our minds.
One of the deepest puzzles in the philosophy of mind is how consciousness emerges from what seem to be purely chemical reactions and electrical impulses in the brain.
One of the deepest puzzles in physics is the nature of fundamental particles of matter, and how those particles can communicate instantaneously across space.
One of the deepest puzzles in life is the existence (or not) and nature of god.
I feel like those three things should be reducible to the same puzzle. Life would have a wonderful elegance if it were so.
(My best stab at a conjecture: every fundamental particle has consciousness, but we only 'see' consciousness at the human level because the brain has a particularly dense interaction of fundamental particles. God is simply the accumulated interaction of the consciousness inherent in every particle in the universe. And with that, to bed).
Have you seen the new, back to form Horizon?
Secrets of the Brain The most complex object in the cosmos - forged in a fire of planetary catastrophes, conflicts, death, sex and love. Jim Al-Khalili tells the epic story of how our brains evolved.
What it does not explain is why on iplayer, the BBC has put it under Secrets of the Brain rather than with the older Horizon programmes, thus wasting several minutes of my time just now.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
I don't think it is illogical.
There is an immediacy here. The Manchester attack was on Jews, and the people protesting are protesting the actions of Jews, albeit in another country (*). There was much fear in the Jewish community in Britain before this attack, something the marches do not help, and attacks on the Jewish community have increased. And here is an attack on the Jewish community in Britain. In this country.
To make it clear for all but the brain-dead: the Jews in Manchester; indeed, the Jews in Britain, are not responsible for the actions of Bibi.
It's a bit like when Corbyn invited IRA 'volunteers' into the parliament two weeks after their compatriots killed five people in the Brighton bombings, including one of his colleagues. He may have thought he was doing some good (though I doubt it); what he was really doing was metaphorically shitting over the dead and injured. Shame on him.
I say the same about anyone who attends 'pro-Palestinian' protests this weekend. Give the Jewish community time to grieve; give them a week. If not, shame on them. And they are making it clear they are not pro-Palestinian, but anti-Jewish.
(*) Although I have no doubt that many are protesting about Jews, in general...
There may be some interesting dynamics going on here. Our dear Tommeh is a cause celebre amongst some of our genius techbroes in the USA, and perhaps their high-intellect and in-no-way-racist president. By inviting Tommeh, they're getting on the side of the in-no-way-racist president and the genius techbroes.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. ETA re-reading your post i particularly agree that the slogan "long live the intifada" is poorly chosen because the word 'intifada' can mean so many different things and has been used by a minority of extremists to refer to a holy war with Jews. It also has a much more widely used interpretation as rebellion against Israeli oppression in Palestinian territory.
However in neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
There is no point because of course obviously, you have already seen them. You just interpret them differently.
I haven't seen any footage of any demonstrations, that's why I want to see them, as I've been rather busy today.
Since you're not willing to post them we can all draw our own inferences about you.
Genuinely? For example, a mere few hours after the incident.
It is fine to interpret this differently. But at a minimum I think it’s reasonable to expect most right minded people would be wary about making this sort of scene in the middle of London so soon after a race based terror attack. And it follows what mindset such people were in when they decided to do this.
There are similar in other places if you search.
Still not good enough to support your claim in my opinion.
I don't dispute the timing of any pro-Gazan protest in the immediate aftermath of a murderous attack against Jewish people is probably not appropriate. The first part of your clip is not easy to hear, and I am assuming lurking within could be something best left unsaid in reference to the State of Israel, but where is "1,2,3,4 occupation no more" or even the undecipherable bit at the start celebrating the murder of Jews?
It is true that the X poster asserts that the demonstration is a celebration for murdering Jews, but I can't see it myself. Do I think these protests appropriate given the timing? No.
It must have been so strange being born British in the 1920s.
You are born into the global hegemon. An industrial juggernaut. The world's reserve currency. The largest empire ever known. The undisputed ruler of the waves.
R3 had a recording of her performing in some Broadway musical. Decent contralto, if rather warbley.
This narrative from young rightwingers is becoming increasingly common. It misses out just how many people of thar generation enjoyed the 60s and 70s, like many relatives of mine, as a huge relief.
Oh, I'm sure that's true.
But either way the culture shock must have been considerable.
I often think the sweet spot was someone born in the late 30s. That does presuppose that you didn’t suffer loss in the war, but you’d be generally too young to remember much of it. Teenager in the relative stability of the 50s. Still young enough to enjoy the 60s.
Men, yes. Women perhaps not so much.
Dad was born in 1939. Remembers snippets of the war but not much. Served in the guards rather than national service then straight into Wiltshire Police for 30 years. Retired at 56 with a huge pay off (restructuring) and has now been retired as long as he served.
Pretty sweet spot.
I was born in 1943. I thoroughly enjoyed the sixties, married in 1968. Three kids and five grandsons all living within walking distance of me. Fired in 1995 (long story) with big pay off and large fully inflation protected pension. I'm extremely lucky. In good health. Skiing next year. And I'm still alive to see the fantastic AI revolution. What a time to be alive! I think I hit the sweet spot.
Except you're going to die about five years before they solve longevity, reverse ageing and everyone lives until they're 190, or forever
So, maybe not such a sweet spot
If they do solve longevity and reverse aging in that timescale then none of us on this forum will be able to afford it. Even the lawyers
The last generation to live. Or the last generation to die. The 2030s are going to be quite the emotional rollercoaster.
I am reading THE SIMULATION HYPOTHESIS by Zirk
With every day that passes, this hypothesis - insane as it seems - makes more sense
I don’t know the book but am familiar with the concept. It’s essentially God for tech bros, no?
When I was young and glib, I fluctuated between atheist and agnostic and back again. But the more life I live, the more I realise that reality is very strange indeed, and it’s a profound mystery why there is something rather than nothing.
I remain unimpressed by the specific doctrine of the global religions. But I recognise that they are mere cultural masks over the face of a broader truth. My view these days is best summed up by the idea that we are all but divine ideas of the mind of God. The effervescent bubbles of consciousness flowing back into the waterfall you once described.
Bishop Berkeley's 'Three Dialogues between Hylas and Philonous', one of the great, funny and witty bits of 18th century philosophy, taking a line which greatly troubled Kant - he never quite managed to throw it off - more or less argues, and argues elegantly - it is not easy to refute - for more or less just this.
(Most people who have not read Berkeley assume that he is obviously wrong and easy to refute, like Samuel Johnson. They couldn't be more wrong.)
He just didn't quite take it to its logical endpoint. That we are simply waves on the ocean. We aren't divine ideas of God. That there is nothing other than consciousness. No God, or anything at all separate from our minds.
One of the deepest puzzles in the philosophy of mind is how consciousness emerges from what seem to be purely chemical reactions and electrical impulses in the brain.
One of the deepest puzzles in physics is the nature of fundamental particles of matter, and how those particles can communicate instantaneously across space.
One of the deepest puzzles in life is the existence (or not) and nature of god.
I feel like those three things should be reducible to the same puzzle. Life would have a wonderful elegance if it were so.
(My best stab at a conjecture: every fundamental particle has consciousness, but we only 'see' consciousness at the human level because the brain has a particularly dense interaction of fundamental particles. God is simply the accumulated interaction of the consciousness inherent in every particle in the universe. And with that, to bed).
I think this is bang on. I sometimes wonder whether the sun is conscious. A giant fusion reactor cooking and creating quantum particles, in no doubt quite complex patterns. A completely different set of senses to earth based animals but perception all the same, from its electromagnetic field and even coronal mass ejections.
Getting to consciousness in a rock or a table is a harder intellectual challenge but I don’t rule it out.
And it would mean the pagans had it right, all along. They had much longer to think about it, after all, than all these Johnny-come-lately fake religions.
My most weird experience was at a business awayday in a London hotel, when at lunch, out of the blue, I got this incredibly strong feeling that my old briefcase, left in a meeting room along a corridor on the floor below - was shouting for help; so strong that I exclaimed "my case!" in the middle of everyone’s conversation, and immediately had to go back to the room; there was no question of ignoring it. As I arrived, there was this dodgy Irish guy coming out of our empty room, who it later transpired had been through my case and taken a cheque out of the back of my cheque book.
The ‘logical’ explanation is that I had subconsciously noticed him hanging about the hotel and my mind had somehow connected the dots without me even thinking about it. But bizarre, nevertheless, and it still seems an unlikely leap from noticing someone suspicious generally hanging about, and thinking my own case was being rifled through, as it turned out that it was, at that very moment.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
I don't think it is illogical.
There is an immediacy here. The Manchester attack was on Jews, and the people protesting are protesting the actions of Jews, albeit in another country (*). There was much fear in the Jewish community in Britain before this attack, something the marches do not help, and attacks on the Jewish community have increased. And here is an attack on the Jewish community in Britain. In this country.
To make it clear for all but the brain-dead: the Jews in Manchester; indeed, the Jews in Britain, are not responsible for the actions of Bibi.
It's a bit like when Corbyn invited IRA 'volunteers' into the parliament two weeks after their compatriots killed five people in the Brighton bombings, including one of his colleagues. He may have thought he was doing some good (though I doubt it); what he was really doing was metaphorically shitting over the dead and injured. Shame on him.
I say the same about anyone who attends 'pro-Palestinian' protests this weekend. Give the Jewish community time to grieve; give them a week. If not, shame on them. And they are making it clear they are not pro-Palestinian, but anti-Jewish.
(*) Although I have no doubt that many are protesting about Jews, in general...
I disagree with almost everything here:
The Manchester attack was on Jews, and the people protesting are protesting the actions of Jews,
The Manchester attack was on Jews for no other reason (I presume) than that they were Jews. The protests are about genocidal actions of a war monger and the mass suffering and starvation of innocents. The fact Netanyahu is Jewish is incidental at this stage. To draw the parallel you have is dangerous in my view.
much fear in the Jewish community in Britain before this attack, something the marches do not help, and attacks on the Jewish community have increased.
Agreed, and the increase in attacks on Jews is horrifying. But this should be dealt with directly, not by stifling the freedom to protest. Anyone who holds a British Jew in the slightest way responsible for the actions of Netanyahu is, as you say, brain dead.
t's a bit like when Corbyn invited IRA 'volunteers' into the parliament...I say the same about anyone who attends 'pro-Palestinian' protests this weekend.
Er...what?! You are implicitly claiming that anyone decrying the destruction and murder in Gaza is somehow linked to the extremist actions of a murderer of two innocent people. In your analogy I am guessing the protesters are Corbyn, which means the IRA volunteers are analogous with...what, the people in Gaza being starved right now? And that those people are in some way responsible for the actions of a terrorist in Manchester? Help me out here, this isn't making sense.
give them a week
And in that week, as a guesstimate, how many innocent people will be murdered in Gaza?
Hopefully Trump and Qatar can collectively force Netanyahu and Hamas towards an end of hostilities, even if "peace" in a stable long-term relationship is a very long way off.
I doubt Trump can remember more than two points on his 20-point plan. In this case that's a strength. He recognises Hamas saying they'll release hostages as a positive step, which deserves a positive step in response. There's no need to go from 0 to 100, but instead take it one stage at a time.
I'm certain there will be bumps in the road. I just hope that the main actors can be persuaded to keep an eye on the bigger prize.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
There is no point because of course obviously, you have already seen them. You just interpret them differently.
I haven't seen any footage of any demonstrations, that's why I want to see them, as I've been rather busy today.
Since you're not willing to post them we can all draw our own inferences about you.
Genuinely? For example, a mere few hours after the incident.
It is fine to interpret this differently. But at a minimum I think it’s reasonable to expect most right minded people would be wary about making this sort of scene in the middle of London so soon after a race based terror attack. And it follows what mindset such people were in when they decided to do this.
There are similar in other places if you search.
Still not good enough to support your claim in my opinion.
I don't dispute the timing of any pro-Gazan protest in the immediate aftermath of a murderous attack against Jewish people is probably not appropriate. The first part of your clip is not easy to hear, and I am assuming lurking within could be something best left unsaid in reference to the State of Israel, but where is "1,2,3,4 occupation no more" or even the undecipherable bit at the start celebrating the murder of Jews?
It is true that the X poster asserts that the demonstration is a celebration for murdering Jews, but I can't see it myself. Do I think these protests appropriate given the timing? No.
Bit of a shock that a believer in UFOs thinks an assertion based on what they ‘feel’ to be true rather than hard evidence is persuasive.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
I don't think it is illogical.
There is an immediacy here. The Manchester attack was on Jews, and the people protesting are protesting the actions of Jews, albeit in another country (*). There was much fear in the Jewish community in Britain before this attack, something the marches do not help, and attacks on the Jewish community have increased. And here is an attack on the Jewish community in Britain. In this country.
To make it clear for all but the brain-dead: the Jews in Manchester; indeed, the Jews in Britain, are not responsible for the actions of Bibi.
It's a bit like when Corbyn invited IRA 'volunteers' into the parliament two weeks after their compatriots killed five people in the Brighton bombings, including one of his colleagues. He may have thought he was doing some good (though I doubt it); what he was really doing was metaphorically shitting over the dead and injured. Shame on him.
I say the same about anyone who attends 'pro-Palestinian' protests this weekend. Give the Jewish community time to grieve; give them a week. If not, shame on them. And they are making it clear they are not pro-Palestinian, but anti-Jewish.
(*) Although I have no doubt that many are protesting about Jews, in general...
I disagree with almost everything here:
The Manchester attack was on Jews, and the people protesting are protesting the actions of Jews,
The Manchester attack was on Jews for no other reason (I presume) than that they were Jews. The protests are about genocidal actions of a war monger and the mass suffering and starvation of innocents. The fact Netanyahu is Jewish is incidental at this stage. To draw the parallel you have is dangerous in my view.
much fear in the Jewish community in Britain before this attack, something the marches do not help, and attacks on the Jewish community have increased.
Agreed, and the increase in attacks on Jews is horrifying. But this should be dealt with directly, not by stifling the freedom to protest. Anyone who holds a British Jew in the slightest way responsible for the actions of Netanyahu is, as you say, brain dead.
t's a bit like when Corbyn invited IRA 'volunteers' into the parliament...I say the same about anyone who attends 'pro-Palestinian' protests this weekend.
Er...what?! You are implicitly claiming that anyone decrying the destruction and murder in Gaza is somehow linked to the extremist actions of a murderer of two innocent people. In your analogy I am guessing the protesters are Corbyn, which means the IRA volunteers are analogous with...what, the people in Gaza being starved right now? And that those people are in some way responsible for the actions of a terrorist in Manchester? Help me out here, this isn't making sense.
give them a week
And in that week, as a guesstimate, how many innocent people will be murdered in Gaza?
And in that week, how much fear will be spread amongst the Jewish community here in Britain? A community that is grieving and fearful.
I'm talking about fear here. The link is that these protests spread fear, especially as some people seem unable to separate Jews from Israel, even if they are in this country. I'm talking about the increase in anti-Semitic attacks in this country.
I'm not talking about 'stifling protest'; I'm talking about common decency. Just for a weekend.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. ETA re-reading your post i particularly agree that the slogan "long live the intifada" is poorly chosen because the word 'intifada' can mean so many different things and has been used by a minority of extremists to refer to a holy war with Jews. It also has a much more widely used interpretation as rebellion against Israeli oppression in Palestinian territory.
However in neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
I’m willing to stand corrected, but I thought that both the Liverpool Street Station protest, and that in Bournemouth, were impromptu ones.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
Which is daft, because there are several extremely good reasons to think this is a very unwise appointment, and in talking complete BS like that they haven't mentioned a single one of them.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. ETA re-reading your post i particularly agree that the slogan "long live the intifada" is poorly chosen because the word 'intifada' can mean so many different things and has been used by a minority of extremists to refer to a holy war with Jews. It also has a much more widely used interpretation as rebellion against Israeli oppression in Palestinian territory.
However in neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
Appreciated. As is clear from today’s headlines, the assertion that protestors have been giving the impression of celebrating or dancing on graves is not one held only by me and others here, but the weight of our political class too. The Corbyn IRA analogy is a good one - “Friends” was his typical refrain wasn’t it. Most people hear that sort of thing in the context of recent murder on our streets and are repulsed.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
Two things we either forgot, or never really realised;
1. Vox-pops, letters pages and phone-ins are there to entertain and fill time/space, not to provide an accurate reflection of the mind of the nation.
2. Speakers' Corner is there for the benefit of the speaker, not the audience.
Twix, Bluesky etc just take those two factors and turn them up to 11. A thousand angry tweets on a subject tells that a thousand people were angry about that subject. Or one person with a thousand online identities. No more than that.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
Two things we either forgot, or never really realised;
1. Vox-pops, letters pages and phone-ins are there to entertain and fill time/space, not to provide an accurate reflection of the mind of the nation.
2. Speakers' Corner is there for the benefit of the speaker, not the audience.
Twix, Bluesky etc just take those two factors and turn them up to 11. A thousand angry tweets on a subject tells that a thousand people were angry about that subject. Or one person with a thousand online identities. No more than that.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
One of the curses of our age is how far we have elevated "can I do this?" over "is it wise and kind for me to do this?"
Hence the need for unhelpfully pedantic regulation, because"do the wise thing" doesn't work.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
I was out for dinner in the week to mark the retirement of a Jewish colleague, albeit a fairly secular one.
He was considering moving to London in order to be closer to his son, but said the protests had given him second thoughts.
On further conversation it became clear that he meant the "Tommy Robinson" flag protesters. He didn't mention the Gaza ones.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
Two things we either forgot, or never really realised;
1. Vox-pops, letters pages and phone-ins are there to entertain and fill time/space, not to provide an accurate reflection of the mind of the nation.
2. Speakers' Corner is there for the benefit of the speaker, not the audience.
Twix, Bluesky etc just take those two factors and turn them up to 11. A thousand angry tweets on a subject tells that a thousand people were angry about that subject. Or one person with a thousand online identities. No more than that.
Possibly even less than that - it could simply be the output of Russian/Iranian/Chinese troll farms, seeking to divide and enrage us.
It's incumbent on us, then, to all step back from time to time and make an extra effort to understand those we disagree with, to reach out to others. To reaffirm the things that unite us that we often overlook in our rush to argue over those points where we disagree.
And I think that is where the organisers of the Gaza protests have fallen short.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
I am not CoE so have no dog in this fight. My own denominations has long had female equality.
The position of many denominations is not to be Biblical liberalism, but rather to believe in continuing revelation and the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, hence doctrines and liturgy continue to evolve.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
One of the curses of our age is how far we have elevated "can I do this?" over "is it wise and kind for me to do this?"
Hence the need for unhelpfully pedantic regulation, because"do the wise thing" doesn't work.
As @Cyclefree has put, it there are things that are legal, things that are illegal, and a subset of things that are legal, but bad-mannered.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
One of the curses of our age is how far we have elevated "can I do this?" over "is it wise and kind for me to do this?"
Hence the need for unhelpfully pedantic regulation, because"do the wise thing" doesn't work.
As @Cyclefree has put, it there are things that are legal, things that are illegal, and a subset of things that are legal, but bad-mannered.
And then there is any given action by the Post Office and their equally dodgy solicitors...
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
One of the curses of our age is how far we have elevated "can I do this?" over "is it wise and kind for me to do this?"
Hence the need for unhelpfully pedantic regulation, because"do the wise thing" doesn't work.
As @Cyclefree has put, it there are things that are legal, things that are illegal, and a subset of things that are legal, but bad-mannered.
And the difficulty is that there are to responses to that.
One is to shun the bad-mannered for being bad-mannered. The other is to celebrate them for getting one over on the squares and olds.
Overnight the Ukrainians hit the Kirishi oil refinery. This is the second-largest oil refinery in Russia, located in Leningrad Oblast, about 100km from St. Petersburg and 800km from Ukraine. It was previously hit on the 14th September 2025.
The effectiveness of Ukrainian air defences seems to be decreasing, with the result that Chernihiv in particular suffered damage to its energy infrastructure overnight.
I’ve never understood why the girls who told lies that got Stephan Kiszcow put away for years were not prosecuted for perverting the course of justice.
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
Holding such demonstrations, and organising them impromptu, straight after the attack in Manchester (and earlier, straight after 7/10/23), seems like coat-trailing to me, a poke in the eye.
Do you have any evidence they were impromptu? The one in Edinburgh had been advertised for several days before the terrorist attack.
(We're now getting multiple scrabbling attempts to pin these demos has some kind of celebration of the murders in Manchester. Weird).
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
It may be that I can't see the wood from the trees, but I haven't noticed a great deal of support on here for those whose anti-Netanyahu commentary spills over into support for the wickedness we saw in Crumpsall.
There is an undoubted conflate of what Bibi has done to Gaza with Jewish people going about their lawful business. I have no doubt it is extremely uncomfortable to operate normally as a Jewish person in the UK when personal abuse and an even more sinister narrative like that culminating in murders outside a Synagogue is going on and is a clear and present danger. But has anyone on here conflated the two?
I reserve the right to call out Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir by name, but I wouldn't dream of attacking you, or cheering someone else who is attacking you (or worshippers in Manchester) for Israeli Cabinet wickedness. All I have seen on here in relation to the outrage in Manchester is universal condemnation and that is right.
My next criticism of Israel (and it is not a criticism of Jewish people in Golders Green or Prestwich who I suspect would share my horror) will be for their (and it would appear to be official) cosying up to a vile racist called Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. I doubt many on here would disagree with me either.
You ( like me) should be allowed to continue on your way unhindered and in complete safety. The fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman.
On the flip side of course is the baiting of Muslim people going about their lawful business by disciples of the aforementioned Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is also vile. Making British Muslims feel unsafe is as repulsive as making British Jews feel unsafe, and I am afraid to say some of that has spilled onto these pages. Admittedly this is a very small cabal of posters. But nonetheless I wonder how I would feel if I were a fully integrated into society Muslim ( rather than a lapsed Agnostic) when posters go off on some withering Nd disgusting Islamaphobic rant?
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
At a time when I had trouble sleeping, I read the bible. There's something rather ... spiritual ... about reading the bible for hours in the early hours, when you're high on lack of sleep and painkillers. I don't think it's the best way to learn the bible at all, but it was surprisingly pleasant.
Reading it quickly over a matter of weeks led me to realise how inconsistent, contradictory, and perhaps incoherent it is - which is perhaps part of the attraction, and to be expected for something that was written over long periods of time, by many authors, and which has been translated by different cultures, being altered in the process. You can get many different readings on the same topic by reading different parts of the bible, and can pick and choose what you want and interpret it as you want.
After the bible, I read half of the Quran. Only half, as I found it much more disconcerting, as it read as much more of a coherent tale, the literal word of God. That, and the fact it feels more alien to my cultural Christian upbringing.
Hopefully Trump and Qatar can collectively force Netanyahu and Hamas towards an end of hostilities, even if "peace" in a stable long-term relationship is a very long way off.
I doubt Trump can remember more than two points on his 20-point plan. In this case that's a strength. He recognises Hamas saying they'll release hostages as a positive step, which deserves a positive step in response. There's no need to go from 0 to 100, but instead take it one stage at a time.
I'm certain there will be bumps in the road. I just hope that the main actors can be persuaded to keep an eye on the bigger prize.
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
Holding such demonstrations, and organising them impromptu, straight after the attack in Manchester (and earlier, straight after 7/10/23), seems like coat-trailing to me, a poke in the eye.
Do you have any evidence they were impromptu? The one in Edinburgh had been advertised for several days before the terrorist attack.
(We're now getting multiple scrabbling attempts to pin these demos has some kind of celebration of the murders in Manchester. Weird).
I'm guessing that it is due to their young age; and that, from my reading, it may have been his head hitting the pavement that caused the most injury.
In the case below, a man who killed another man with a single punch was jailed for 30 months, which is about the same. I'd say this case is worse, as it was apparently multiple hits and kicks, but that might be offset by their age. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35714722
But more interesting for me is why they did it? What was their motivation? This seems rather important.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Really.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
It may be that I can't see the wood from the trees, but I haven't noticed a great deal of support on here for those whose anti-Netanyahu commentary spills over into support for the wickedness we saw in Crumpsall.
There is an undoubted conflate of what Bibi has done to Gaza with Jewish people going about their lawful business. I have no doubt it is extremely uncomfortable to operate normally as a Jewish person in the UK when personal abuse and an even more sinister narrative like that culminating in murders outside a Synagogue is going on and is a clear and present danger. But has anyone on here conflated the two?
I reserve the right to call out Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir by name, but I wouldn't dream of attacking you, or cheering someone else who is attacking you (or worshippers in Manchester) for Israeli Cabinet wickedness. All I have seen on here in relation to the outrage in Manchester is universal condemnation and that is right.
My next criticism of Israel (and it is not a criticism of Jewish people in Golders Green or Prestwich who I suspect would share my horror) will be for their (and it would appear to be official) cosying up to a vile racist called Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. I doubt many on here would disagree with me either.
You ( like me) should be allowed to continue on your way unhindered and in complete safety. The fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman.
On the flip side of course is the baiting of Muslim people going about their lawful business by disciples of the aforementioned Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is also vile. Making British Muslims feel unsafe is as repulsive as making British Jews feel unsafe, and I am afraid to say some of that has spilled onto these pages. Admittedly this is a very small cabal of posters. But nonetheless I wonder how I would feel if I were a fully integrated into society Muslim ( rather than a lapsed Agnostic) when posters go off on some withering Nd disgusting Islamaphobic rant?
The fact supporters of Tommeh exist and are Islamaphobic does not excuse the vile anti-Jewish people.
"he fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman."
It's not just the government. It's people in society making the choice to spread fear.
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
Holding such demonstrations, and organising them impromptu, straight after the attack in Manchester (and earlier, straight after 7/10/23), seems like coat-trailing to me, a poke in the eye.
Do you have any evidence they were impromptu? The one in Edinburgh had been advertised for several days before the terrorist attack.
(We're now getting multiple scrabbling attempts to pin these demos has some kind of celebration of the murders in Manchester. Weird).
The police have confirmed that they had received no prior notification of the “spontaneous” protest that took place in the Haymarket and Downing Street, on 2nd October. The Liverpool Street Station protests, near the kinder transport memorial, seem to be a regular occurrence, but @moonshine has referred to the unpleasant slogans that were being chanted there.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Really.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
One are events happening in another country, thousands of mils away, over which we have f-all control.
The other is about people in our own country.
You make it clear that you 'care' more for people in another country than you do people in ours.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
A pair of female deacons were tortured by Pliny the Younger, when Governor of Bithynia, as Roman law required evidence from slaves to be given, following torture.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
A pair of female deacons were tortured by Pliny the Younger, when Governor of Bithynia, as Roman law required evidence from slaves to be given, following torture.
Classic autumn extra-tropical warm sector this evening. The temperature across the South East has risen to over 17C, warmer than at midday, in near 100% humidity, and will stay there all night as vast amounts of latent heat get released from condensation.
This is the tropics dumping its surplus late season heat on the mid latitudes.
The sort of weather that causes algae to start growing on doorsteps.
ETA: oh and a nasty gust front between midnight and 1am to look forward to.
102 MPH was recorded at Tiree at 8pm tonight!
Also 100 MPH at Elgol on Skye. Its been wild across the Highlands and Islands and the North East tonight, power cuts and roads closed due to fallen trees all over the place. But hopeful it should start to calm down in the early hours.
Seriously windy down here too. Bit worried about the car parked under a tree still in leaf.
Very glad we keep our garden trees pruned every 2-3 years, the shed screwed down to its concrete base (It sits across the prevailing wind with a drop on one side), and had the garden fence rebuilt (this time with a double planking arrangement to let some wind through).
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
AIUI an issue is that the bible has been altered and translated so many times over the centuries, according to the mores and beliefs of the time, and writing such as some of the apocrypha being declared (literally) non-canon, or canon, at various times. So if the culture in the mid 100s in the Middle East had been a little bit more pro-woman, Christianity may have been as well.
TL:DR; the bible reflects the morals and views not just of God, but of the people who wrote, edited and translated it over the centuries. And also amongst those who read and interpret it now.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
A pair of female deacons were tortured by Pliny the Younger, when Governor of Bithynia, as Roman law required evidence from slaves to be given, following torture.
Good morning, everyone.
It's shockingly modern but I'm reading a history of Prussia. Many in the legal profession were outraged when Frederick the Great restricted (and then banned, I think) torturing people into confession.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Really.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
One are events happening in another country, thousands of mils away, over which we have f-all control.
The other is about people in our own country.
You make it clear that you 'care' more for people in another country than you do people in ours.
Fuck off. I've worked hard to try to keep this discussion not ad hominem. I'd appreciate you doing the same.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Really.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
One are events happening in another country, thousands of mils away, over which we have f-all control.
The other is about people in our own country.
You make it clear that you 'care' more for people in another country than you do people in ours.
Fuck off. I've worked hard to try to keep this discussion not ad hominem. I'd appreciate you doing the same.
I apologise. But my point still stands: the protest does nothing to help Palestinians, but they do spread fear in this country.
Not having protests this weekend will not cause the Palestinians any additional harm. It will cause a lot of harm, and hurt, to the Jewish community at a time they've been targeted.
That choice seems obvious to me: choose not to protest this week.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
A pair of female deacons were tortured by Pliny the Younger, when Governor of Bithynia, as Roman law required evidence from slaves to be given, following torture.
Good morning, everyone.
It's shockingly modern but I'm reading a history of Prussia. Many in the legal profession were outraged when Frederick the Great restricted (and then banned, I think) torturing people into confession.
Judicial torture was rather more of an early modern, than a medieval practice, precisely because jurists began to study Roman law in great detail, and Roman jurists considered it a reliable method of establishing the truth.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
Holding the Church of England in contempt is almost an essential qualification for the position, I'd have thought
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
Holding such demonstrations, and organising them impromptu, straight after the attack in Manchester (and earlier, straight after 7/10/23), seems like coat-trailing to me, a poke in the eye.
Do you have any evidence they were impromptu? The one in Edinburgh had been advertised for several days before the terrorist attack.
(We're now getting multiple scrabbling attempts to pin these demos has some kind of celebration of the murders in Manchester. Weird).
The police have confirmed that they had received no prior notification of the “spontaneous” protest that took place in the Haymarket and Downing Street, on 2nd October. The Liverpool Street Station protests, near the kinder transport memorial, seem to be a regular occurrence, but moonshine has referred to the unpleasant slogans that were being chanted there.
Right - and those are the ones where dozens of protestors were arrested, right? Fair enough.
In the video that moonshine shared the slogans were about the Israeli Government's treatment of people in Gaza. Not sure why you would find such words unpleasant.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
AIUI an issue is that the bible has been altered and translated so many times over the centuries, according to the mores and beliefs of the time, and writing such as some of the apocrypha being declared (literally) non-canon, or canon, at various times. So if the culture in the mid 100s in the Middle East had been a little bit more pro-woman, Christianity may have been as well.
TL:DR; the bible reflects the morals and views not just of God, but of the people who wrote, edited and translated it over the centuries. And also amongst those who read and interpret it now.
The canonical bible was agreed in C4 I think (Nicea) and hasn’t changed since then AIUI. But yes it’s a collection of written down oral history, letters and prophecies over many centuries
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
I can't say I've ever been fussed by women vicars, priests or bishops - although I can understand from a religious point of view why gay marriage might be a problem.
I'm far more bothered by their politics, values, ethics and belief in the Institution. And it seems to be part of the General Synod, yet alone elected as Archbishop, you essentially need to be a Corbynite.
The first female Archbishop of Canterbury is creating lots of reasoned comments on Twix...
e.g.: "Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
The only bit of the Bible I have read in any detail are Paul's letters to Timothy, given that was the name chosen for me by my mother, and when I did so I was so disappointed that I briefly considered renaming myself something like Deuteronomy, until I made a brief stab at reading that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
There was a very interesting interview on world service a week or so ago with a woman who has been campaigning for 30 years to change the Catholic Church’s position.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
AIUI an issue is that the bible has been altered and translated so many times over the centuries, according to the mores and beliefs of the time, and writing such as some of the apocrypha being declared (literally) non-canon, or canon, at various times. So if the culture in the mid 100s in the Middle East had been a little bit more pro-woman, Christianity may have been as well.
TL:DR; the bible reflects the morals and views not just of God, but of the people who wrote, edited and translated it over the centuries. And also amongst those who read and interpret it now.
God's view on the matter of women priests, as with so many of his views, seems to match exactly whatever the views are of those in charge at any particular moment. Amazingly flexible fella. I can't claim any insight into the views of Sarah Mulally, but if she is the tediously right-on leftie she is painted then she matches pretty much all of the views I have heard from the CoE in the past ten years. She does have an annoying voice though.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Really.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
One are events happening in another country, thousands of mils away, over which we have f-all control.
The other is about people in our own country.
You make it clear that you 'care' more for people in another country than you do people in ours.
Fuck off. I've worked hard to try to keep this discussion not ad hominem. I'd appreciate you doing the same.
You've been among the more measured on here in this debate. That JosiasJessop has resorted to that tells you all you need to know about the strength of your arguments.
To address one of the points you make about why these protests are happening - it's pretty obvious imo. 1) There is something horrible happening that is widely regarded as ethnic cleansing, even genocide, and most of us had an education that means we feel obliged to call such actions out 2) Unusually the UK Government has continued to support the political regime that is accused of these crimes in a way that it has not about, say, Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
To not protest now is to effectively concede that the protests are anti-semitic rather than a protest of the above. They are more important than ever.
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
Holding such demonstrations, and organising them impromptu, straight after the attack in Manchester (and earlier, straight after 7/10/23), seems like coat-trailing to me, a poke in the eye.
Do you have any evidence they were impromptu? The one in Edinburgh had been advertised for several days before the terrorist attack.
(We're now getting multiple scrabbling attempts to pin these demos has some kind of celebration of the murders in Manchester. Weird).
The police have confirmed that they had received no prior notification of the “spontaneous” protest that took place in the Haymarket and Downing Street, on 2nd October. The Liverpool Street Station protests, near the kinder transport memorial, seem to be a regular occurrence, but @moonshine has referred to the unpleasant slogans that were being chanted there.
Thanks for following that up Sean. In which case I'm completely in agreement with you. That's pretty vile.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Really.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
One are events happening in another country, thousands of mils away, over which we have f-all control.
The other is about people in our own country.
You make it clear that you 'care' more for people in another country than you do people in ours.
Fuck off. I've worked hard to try to keep this discussion not ad hominem. I'd appreciate you doing the same.
You've been among the more measured on here in this debate. That JosiasJessop has resorted to that tells you all you need to know about the strength of your arguments.
To address one of the points you make about why these protests are happening - it's pretty obvious imo. 1) There is something horrible happening that is widely regarded as ethnic cleansing, even genocide, and most of us had an education that means we feel obliged to call such actions out 2) Unusually the UK Government has continued to support the political regime that is accused of these crimes in a way that it has not about, say, Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
IMV he is *not* being measured. But by all means, disagree.
But things can be multi-causal. You say "why these protests are happening", and give two reasons.
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Really.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
One are events happening in another country, thousands of mils away, over which we have f-all control.
The other is about people in our own country.
You make it clear that you 'care' more for people in another country than you do people in ours.
Fuck off. I've worked hard to try to keep this discussion not ad hominem. I'd appreciate you doing the same.
I apologise. But my point still stands: the protest does nothing to help Palestinians, but they do spread fear in this country.
Not having protests this weekend will not cause the Palestinians any additional harm. It will cause a lot of harm, and hurt, to the Jewish community at a time they've been targeted.
That choice seems obvious to me: choose not to protest this week.
These are rather tight conditions:
1) All protests must have a decent chance of changing government policy (which these protests have helped to achieve with recognition of a Palestinian state) 2) They must not offend or intimidate anyone else
It's difficult to think of any protest that meets these conditions.
Unexpectedly staying home instead of heading to Spain on family holiday. Storm Bastard* still raging outside, here in the NE up a hill it’s not so much the peak wind speed as the continuous nature of it.
Blowing 60mph gusts since 3pm yesterday and forecast to continue doing so until lunchtime tomorrow…
*not the reason we had to abruptly scrap the holiday
OT. It so happens that my sister and her vast family are members of the Heaton Park synagogue in Prestwich where the killing took place. They were there yesterday but thankfully undamaged. Indeed the last time I visited that synagogue was for the wedding of one of her children about five years ago.
I'm really not interested in getting into this anti semitism discussion particularly when it is as full of ignorance as it so often is on here when the leading racists take the stage.
But how is it after the wanton killings of newsmen babies small children photo journalists doctors nurses and at least 60,000 non combatents we know no details whatsoever about the life stories of any of them yet we are told out of respect for the synagogue attack all demonstations against the Gazan genocide should stop. Just don't offend Jews?
Does Netanyahu answer for anything? He is a proven liar and a butcher yet not a word from the Board of Deputies against him except that trying to charge him with genocide is an outrage.
British Jews opinion of Netanyahu is strongly negative*:
"95% of adult British Jews have an opinion on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most widely known leader among those examined. Four in five Jews hold an unfavourable opinion of him, with 65% saying they “strongly disapprove” and 15% saying they “somewhat” disapprove of him."
You wouldn't know that if you just read the output of the Board of Deputies, or for that matter PB, or indeed British Jihadists.
* the poll is from 2024, but things have only got worse since.
I’m not sure I see the connection. The British Jews I know have a deeply unfavourite opinion of Bibi. Yet still consider Israel has the right to defend herself against external attack.
Sure, but when that defence turns into genocide?
You’ve been the king of whataboutery in the last 24hrs, which is disappointingly out of character. Two middle aged British Jews are dead, more in serious condition. As far as we know they have nothing to do with any supposed genocide thousands of miles away.
Exactly so. They had nothing to do with the genocide in Gaza.
The best response to terrorism is to keep calm and carry on, including a protest on an unrelated issue scheduled for tommorow.
But the whole point is that it’s not unrelated in the eyes of the “protestors”.
What evidence do you have for that?
Unless you think opposing genocide in Gaza and our governments inadequate response is purely driven by anti-semitism.
If so then you are way out of line with British public opinion:
My evidence is the multitude of celebratory “protests” around the uk last night. And while I recognise your polls, I do think that the quite bizarre focus on the Palestinian cause above all others is primarily driven by anti semitism, conscious or unwitting. It’s not a view that makes you friends in real life to be sure. Because it’s a very hard truth to hear. But it’s what I think.
Do you have any evidence of a "multitude of celebratory protests last night"?
It's quite some allegation.
The videos are not hard to find.
I have seen videos of protests about the genocide in Gaza and against the stopping of the Gaza flotilla, but not one celebrating the Manchester attack.
I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. Peace out.
It's not really a "change mind" kind of thing. You said the videos of people celebrating the terrorist attack were not hard to find.
Shouldn't take you long then.
It shouldn’t take you long either.
So you made an allegation, was asked for evidence, and haven't provided it.
Noted.
Are we really pretending that the crowds at Liverpool Street or Glasgow last night were in a celebratory mood after watching the Europa League? We have truly gone through the looking glass.
Without a video, this is quite hard to judge.
Genuinely, are you gaslighting? The Home Secretary has today said:
“ I was very disappointed to see those protests go ahead last night.
“I think that behaviour is fundamentally un-British. I think it’s dishonourable.“
Post the videos, a simple request.
How about this one? “Long live the intifada” combined with drumming and dancing on the day of the murder of innocents?
What I don't really understand is why innocents in Manchester count in your tally but innocents in Gaza don't. I can see the risk of whataboutery in this, but it genuinely confuses me.
ETA: I don't think I have expressed myself very well.
What I mean is, you are asking that protesters hold off protesting because of the murder of innocents. But they are protesting about the murder of innocents. Is your stance not illogical?
There is a time and a place.
Dancing and having a celebratory atmosphere on the day of a brutal attack is, at best, open to misinterpretation.
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. In neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community. I know many taking part don't want that, but I have no doubt many do, and indeed that might be part of the point in attending for some. Regardless, they cause fear.
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
The protests cause fear in the Jewish community.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
"I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions."
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Really.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
One are events happening in another country, thousands of mils away, over which we have f-all control.
The other is about people in our own country.
You make it clear that you 'care' more for people in another country than you do people in ours.
Fuck off. I've worked hard to try to keep this discussion not ad hominem. I'd appreciate you doing the same.
I apologise. But my point still stands: the protest does nothing to help Palestinians, but they do spread fear in this country.
Not having protests this weekend will not cause the Palestinians any additional harm. It will cause a lot of harm, and hurt, to the Jewish community at a time they've been targeted.
That choice seems obvious to me: choose not to protest this week.
These are rather tight conditions:
1) All protests must have a decent chance of changing government policy (which these protests have helped to achieve with recognition of a Palestinian state) 2) They must not offend or intimidate anyone else
It's difficult to think of any protest that meets these conditions.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying *this week* / *weekend*.
It's the fact the Jewish community have suffered a terrible attack, and common decency would be not to spread more fear amongst them. Let them grieve for a while without piling more fear on them.
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
It may be that I can't see the wood from the trees, but I haven't noticed a great deal of support on here for those whose anti-Netanyahu commentary spills over into support for the wickedness we saw in Crumpsall.
There is an undoubted conflate of what Bibi has done to Gaza with Jewish people going about their lawful business. I have no doubt it is extremely uncomfortable to operate normally as a Jewish person in the UK when personal abuse and an even more sinister narrative like that culminating in murders outside a Synagogue is going on and is a clear and present danger. But has anyone on here conflated the two?
I reserve the right to call out Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir by name, but I wouldn't dream of attacking you, or cheering someone else who is attacking you (or worshippers in Manchester) for Israeli Cabinet wickedness. All I have seen on here in relation to the outrage in Manchester is universal condemnation and that is right.
My next criticism of Israel (and it is not a criticism of Jewish people in Golders Green or Prestwich who I suspect would share my horror) will be for their (and it would appear to be official) cosying up to a vile racist called Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. I doubt many on here would disagree with me either.
You ( like me) should be allowed to continue on your way unhindered and in complete safety. The fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman.
On the flip side of course is the baiting of Muslim people going about their lawful business by disciples of the aforementioned Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is also vile. Making British Muslims feel unsafe is as repulsive as making British Jews feel unsafe, and I am afraid to say some of that has spilled onto these pages. Admittedly this is a very small cabal of posters. But nonetheless I wonder how I would feel if I were a fully integrated into society Muslim ( rather than a lapsed Agnostic) when posters go off on some withering Nd disgusting Islamaphobic rant?
The fact supporters of Tommeh exist and are Islamaphobic does not excuse the vile anti-Jewish people.
"he fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman."
It's not just the government. It's people in society making the choice to spread fear.
I thought I made myself clear. I can condemn the Israeli Government for inviting Yaxley Lennon to lecture in Israel, but I have no business and no need to suggest that has anything to do with the British Jewish Community.
I never suggested it was the British Government who "spread fear", they are guilty only if they allow fear to spread unabated, and that goes for any community in Britain..
Unexpectedly staying home instead of heading to Spain on family holiday. Storm Bastard* still raging outside, here in the NE up a hill it’s not so much the peak wind speed as the continuous nature of it.
Blowing 60mph gusts since 3pm yesterday and forecast to continue doing so until lunchtime tomorrow…
*not the reason we had to abruptly scrap the holiday
That's the way it's going to be now.
Several Storm Bastards each Winter, which will be wet, warmer, and windier, and hotter dry summers.
The lengths to which some on here seek to deny the anti-Semitic nature of some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators and their actions over the last two years is really very depressing and very discouraging for the future of this country and the Jewish community living here. If we refuse to name clearly what is going on, we will not be able to deal with it properly.
It saddens and angers me too much. So I will take a break. Bad enough that these things happen but then to see apparently intelligent people try to pretend that it isn't happening or to diminish it is too much for me.
It may be that I can't see the wood from the trees, but I haven't noticed a great deal of support on here for those whose anti-Netanyahu commentary spills over into support for the wickedness we saw in Crumpsall.
There is an undoubted conflate of what Bibi has done to Gaza with Jewish people going about their lawful business. I have no doubt it is extremely uncomfortable to operate normally as a Jewish person in the UK when personal abuse and an even more sinister narrative like that culminating in murders outside a Synagogue is going on and is a clear and present danger. But has anyone on here conflated the two?
I reserve the right to call out Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir by name, but I wouldn't dream of attacking you, or cheering someone else who is attacking you (or worshippers in Manchester) for Israeli Cabinet wickedness. All I have seen on here in relation to the outrage in Manchester is universal condemnation and that is right.
My next criticism of Israel (and it is not a criticism of Jewish people in Golders Green or Prestwich who I suspect would share my horror) will be for their (and it would appear to be official) cosying up to a vile racist called Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. I doubt many on here would disagree with me either.
You ( like me) should be allowed to continue on your way unhindered and in complete safety. The fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman.
On the flip side of course is the baiting of Muslim people going about their lawful business by disciples of the aforementioned Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is also vile. Making British Muslims feel unsafe is as repulsive as making British Jews feel unsafe, and I am afraid to say some of that has spilled onto these pages. Admittedly this is a very small cabal of posters. But nonetheless I wonder how I would feel if I were a fully integrated into society Muslim ( rather than a lapsed Agnostic) when posters go off on some withering Nd disgusting Islamaphobic rant?
The fact supporters of Tommeh exist and are Islamaphobic does not excuse the vile anti-Jewish people.
"he fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman."
It's not just the government. It's people in society making the choice to spread fear.
I thought I made myself clear. I can condemn the Israeli Government for inviting Yaxley Lennon to lecture in Israel, but I have no business and no need to suggest that has anything to do with the British Jewish Community.
I never suggested it was the British Government who "spread fear", they are guilty only if they allow fear to spread unabated, and that goes for any community in Britain..
How would you suggest the government stop allowing fear to spread unabated? What should they have done / do?
Unexpectedly staying home instead of heading to Spain on family holiday. Storm Bastard* still raging outside, here in the NE up a hill it’s not so much the peak wind speed as the continuous nature of it.
Blowing 60mph gusts since 3pm yesterday and forecast to continue doing so until lunchtime tomorrow…
*not the reason we had to abruptly scrap the holiday
That's the way it's going to be now.
Several Storm Bastards each Winter, which will be wet, warmer, and windier, and hotter dry summers.
I call all of the big ones Storm Bastard. Because they are.
Unexpectedly staying home instead of heading to Spain on family holiday. Storm Bastard* still raging outside, here in the NE up a hill it’s not so much the peak wind speed as the continuous nature of it.
Blowing 60mph gusts since 3pm yesterday and forecast to continue doing so until lunchtime tomorrow…
*not the reason we had to abruptly scrap the holiday
That's the way it's going to be now.
Several Storm Bastards each Winter, which will be wet, warmer, and windier, and hotter dry summers.
I call all of the big ones Storm Bastard. Because they are.
What's the joke about the old-school copper addressing a crim?
"I wasn't calling you a bastard, you bastard. I was calling that bastard a bastard..."
Some discussion last night on protests not being illegal - even if in appalling bad taste.
Well in the one in London the protesters were shouting an Arab slogan demanding the beheading of Jews. That is not protest. Nor is it free speech. It is incitement to violence which has always been an exception to free speech. Those protestors should be arrested and charged and protests which go round chanting slogans calling for the death of Jews should be banned.
As for the poster last night saying that Netanyahu was responsible for the rise in anti-semitism, this is so disgusting on so many levels. First, because it blames Jews for what evil people do to them. Second because it reveals the lie at the heart of so many of these protests - that they are only against Zionism, only against what Israel does, not against Jews generally. But this is not true is it. The use of the word Zionism has been a convenient way to launder anti-semitism into the discourse here and to justify attacks on and vile language against Jews here. That is why there has been a rise in anti-semitism here.
There are genuine and well-founded serious criticisms to be made of Israel's conduct, much of it made by Israelis themselves. But much of it is not made in any sort of good faith, much of it is barely disguised anti-semitism or is used to justify hatred of Jews outside Israel. The use of the word "Zionist" is utterly disingenuous and is similar to those on the Tommy Robinson side who say that they anti- Islam when in reality we know and they know we know that they use "Islam" and "Muslim" as a figleaf to mean "blacks" or "Pakistanis" etc. Let's not fool ourselves: exactly the same is happening with the use of the word "Zionist" and it is long past the time for these protesters to be called out on this.
I note also that one of the protests was in Liverpool Street Station - site of the memorial to the Kindertransport. The people protesting last night struck me as the sort of people who in another era were those who made the Kindertransport necessary.
Excellent comment @Cyclefree - and yes, absolutely, many of the protestors last night weren’t just lamenting Gaza they were gleefully exulting in the Manchester attacks. The triumphant flag waving, the horrific chanting, the body language of Joy - and then the violence. Repulsive
You’re wrong on one minor point tho. Tommy Robinson is not anti-black, if you look at his background there is no evidence for this, quite the contrary. He is a thug and a demagogue and wildly anti-Muslim - that’s his thing
However I’m sure plenty of his nastier followers are racist in the way you say
I'm abroad at the moment so don't have any impression of the marches. I absolutely agree that anti-semitism is evil, and also baffling, like being against anyone over 6 feet tall or some other irrelevant issue. However, it is almost as impossible to defend Netanyahu's policies and "anti-Zionist" is a convenient a shorthand for saying that as any that I can think of. I'm Jewish by descent and traditionally pro-Israel, but I see nothing defensible in their current policies. I describe that as being anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic (which would inter alia mean being against myself). In fact, I think that Netanyhu's policies are keeping anti-semitism alive (precisely through the delibarely conflation of Israeli policies with Jewishness), when it would otherwise have disappeared along with flat-earthism and other weird beliefs. I'm not wedded to the wording but we shoulldn't get hung up on that - a rational position is to be opposed to Israeli policy while regarding anti-semitism with contempt.
Some discussion last night on protests not being illegal - even if in appalling bad taste.
Well in the one in London the protesters were shouting an Arab slogan demanding the beheading of Jews. That is not protest. Nor is it free speech. It is incitement to violence which has always been an exception to free speech. Those protestors should be arrested and charged and protests which go round chanting slogans calling for the death of Jews should be banned.
As for the poster last night saying that Netanyahu was responsible for the rise in anti-semitism, this is so disgusting on so many levels. First, because it blames Jews for what evil people do to them. Second because it reveals the lie at the heart of so many of these protests - that they are only against Zionism, only against what Israel does, not against Jews generally. But this is not true is it. The use of the word Zionism has been a convenient way to launder anti-semitism into the discourse here and to justify attacks on and vile language against Jews here. That is why there has been a rise in anti-semitism here.
There are genuine and well-founded serious criticisms to be made of Israel's conduct, much of it made by Israelis themselves. But much of it is not made in any sort of good faith, much of it is barely disguised anti-semitism or is used to justify hatred of Jews outside Israel. The use of the word "Zionist" is utterly disingenuous and is similar to those on the Tommy Robinson side who say that they anti- Islam when in reality we know and they know we know that they use "Islam" and "Muslim" as a figleaf to mean "blacks" or "Pakistanis" etc. Let's not fool ourselves: exactly the same is happening with the use of the word "Zionist" and it is long past the time for these protesters to be called out on this.
I note also that one of the protests was in Liverpool Street Station - site of the memorial to the Kindertransport. The people protesting last night struck me as the sort of people who in another era were those who made the Kindertransport necessary.
Excellent comment @Cyclefree - and yes, absolutely, many of the protestors last night weren’t just lamenting Gaza they were gleefully exulting in the Manchester attacks. The triumphant flag waving, the horrific chanting, the body language of Joy - and then the violence. Repulsive
You’re wrong on one minor point tho. Tommy Robinson is not anti-black, if you look at his background there is no evidence for this, quite the contrary. He is a thug and a demagogue and wildly anti-Muslim - that’s his thing
However I’m sure plenty of his nastier followers are racist in the way you say
I'm abroad at the moment so don't have any impression of the marches. I absolutely agree that anti-semitism is evil, and also baffling, like being against anyone over 6 feet tall or some other irrelevant issue. However, it is almost as impossible to defend Netanyahu's policies and "anti-Zionist" is a convenient a shorthand for saying that as any that I can think of. I'm Jewish by descent and traditionally pro-Israel, but I see nothing defensible in their current policies. I describe that as being anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic (which would inter alia mean being against myself). In fact, I think that Netanyhu's policies are keeping anti-semitism alive (precisely through the delibarely conflation of Israeli policies with Jewishness), when it would otherwise have disappeared along with flat-earthism and other weird beliefs. I'm not wedded to the wording but we shoulldn't get hung up on that - a rational position is to be opposed to Israeli policy while regarding anti-semitism with contempt.
Fine post Nick. My feelings and I have to say a majority of those Ive spoken to who are very much closer to the 'Jewish community' than most of the pontificators on here who seem to have an agenda I can't follow and just seems to involve some rather crude race baiting
Comments
Really odd to my mind.
Which other people do you think should be raped?
Oh how the mighty are fallen etc
There is an immediacy here. The Manchester attack was on Jews, and the people protesting are protesting the actions of Jews, albeit in another country (*). There was much fear in the Jewish community in Britain before this attack, something the marches do not help, and attacks on the Jewish community have increased. And here is an attack on the Jewish community in Britain. In this country.
To make it clear for all but the brain-dead: the Jews in Manchester; indeed, the Jews in Britain, are not responsible for the actions of Bibi.
It's a bit like when Corbyn invited IRA 'volunteers' into the parliament two weeks after their compatriots killed five people in the Brighton bombings, including one of his colleagues. He may have thought he was doing some good (though I doubt it); what he was really doing was metaphorically shitting over the dead and injured. Shame on him.
I say the same about anyone who attends 'pro-Palestinian' protests this weekend. Give the Jewish community time to grieve; give them a week. If not, shame on them. And they are making it clear they are not pro-Palestinian, but anti-Jewish.
(*) Although I have no doubt that many are protesting about Jews, in general...
I am not sure our views are actually that far apart on this. If I were leading a demonstration against genocide in Gaza, i would instinctively want to seek common cause with those mourning and angry about a horrific attack on a synagogue and murder of two innocent Jews. As @tyson eloquently expressed last night, the revulsion that drives both the protesters and those focused on the synagogue attack seems very similar to me.
If, as @Sean_F suggests, impromptu demos were set up in response to the murder of two innocent people then the people organising those demos should rot in hell. I'm not aware that has happened but also trust Sean as a usually reliable and well informed poster (Sean if you read this I'd appreciate clarification).
Likewise if protesters are celebrating the murders I feel the same as you. ETA re-reading your post i particularly agree that the slogan "long live the intifada" is poorly chosen because the word 'intifada' can mean so many different things and has been used by a minority of extremists to refer to a holy war with Jews. It also has a much more widely used interpretation as rebellion against Israeli oppression in Palestinian territory.
However in neither the video you posted not the one @moonshine did do I detect an atmosphere of celebration. I am guessing you have been on or seen a mass protest; simplistic chants, drums and megaphones are standard tools.
I think a far more thoughtful approach to a Gaza protest yesterday would have been to break with those standard tools (something like a silent vigil) but that's easy for me to post, not being in the guts of organising the thing.
(As an aside @moonshine if you read this thanks for posting the other video, and as I hope this post makes clear I agree it's all about interpretation and reasonable people may differ in this. I felt it was becoming a pile on on you last night so stepped back a little.)
And creating more fear immediately after an attack on a synagogue is nasty. Cancel the protests for this weekend.
And you know what? It'll cause f-all harm to the people in Gaza.
I might suggest that the protestors also think of ways that the fear they are spreading might be minimised in the long term.
Edit: indeed, I shall go further. If they protest this weekend, in my eyes they shall no longer be pro-Gaza protests.
They'll be anti-Jewish protests.
I don't dispute the timing of any pro-Gazan protest in the immediate aftermath of a murderous attack against Jewish people is probably not appropriate. The first part of your clip is not easy to hear, and I am assuming lurking within could be something best left unsaid in reference to the State of Israel, but where is "1,2,3,4 occupation no more" or even the undecipherable bit at the start celebrating the murder of Jews?
It is true that the X poster asserts that the demonstration is a celebration for murdering Jews, but I can't see it myself. Do I think these protests appropriate given the timing? No.
My most weird experience was at a business awayday in a London hotel, when at lunch, out of the blue, I got this incredibly strong feeling that my old briefcase, left in a meeting room along a corridor on the floor below - was shouting for help; so strong that I exclaimed "my case!" in the middle of everyone’s conversation, and immediately had to go back to the room; there was no question of ignoring it. As I arrived, there was this dodgy Irish guy coming out of our empty room, who it later transpired had been through my case and taken a cheque out of the back of my cheque book.
The ‘logical’ explanation is that I had subconsciously noticed him hanging about the hotel and my mind had somehow connected the dots without me even thinking about it. But bizarre, nevertheless, and it still seems an unlikely leap from noticing someone suspicious generally hanging about, and thinking my own case was being rifled through, as it turned out that it was, at that very moment.
The Manchester attack was on Jews, and the people protesting are protesting the actions of Jews,
The Manchester attack was on Jews for no other reason (I presume) than that they were Jews. The protests are about genocidal actions of a war monger and the mass suffering and starvation of innocents. The fact Netanyahu is Jewish is incidental at this stage. To draw the parallel you have is dangerous in my view.
much fear in the Jewish community in Britain before this attack, something the marches do not help, and attacks on the Jewish community have increased.
Agreed, and the increase in attacks on Jews is horrifying. But this should be dealt with directly, not by stifling the freedom to protest. Anyone who holds a British Jew in the slightest way responsible for the actions of Netanyahu is, as you say, brain dead.
t's a bit like when Corbyn invited IRA 'volunteers' into the parliament...I say the same about anyone who attends 'pro-Palestinian' protests this weekend.
Er...what?! You are implicitly claiming that anyone decrying the destruction and murder in Gaza is somehow linked to the extremist actions of a murderer of two innocent people. In your analogy I am guessing the protesters are Corbyn, which means the IRA volunteers are analogous with...what, the people in Gaza being starved right now? And that those people are in some way responsible for the actions of a terrorist in Manchester? Help me out here, this isn't making sense.
give them a week
And in that week, as a guesstimate, how many innocent people will be murdered in Gaza?
I doubt Trump can remember more than two points on his 20-point plan. In this case that's a strength. He recognises Hamas saying they'll release hostages as a positive step, which deserves a positive step in response. There's no need to go from 0 to 100, but instead take it one stage at a time.
I'm certain there will be bumps in the road. I just hope that the main actors can be persuaded to keep an eye on the bigger prize.
e.g.:
"Today, Oct 3rd 2025, the Church of England died. In naming Sarah Mullally Archbishop of Canterbury, it embraced feminist rebellion over biblical truth. The See of Canterbury is vacant. Anglicanism globally will not follow a false teacher in ecclesiastical drag."
or
"The new female Archbishop of Canterbury supports abortion, Black Lives Matter and has claimed the CofE is 'institutionally racist'. In other words, she's a godless communist!"
and worse.
Naturally enough, these sorts of tweets are the things that come up first when I click on the 'Archbishop of Canterbury' link on the "What's happening" bar.
I'm talking about fear here. The link is that these protests spread fear, especially as some people seem unable to separate Jews from Israel, even if they are in this country. I'm talking about the increase in anti-Semitic attacks in this country.
I'm not talking about 'stifling protest'; I'm talking about common decency. Just for a weekend.
This statement seems at the heart of it for you. And in the strength of my response to your other post there is a risk of appearing to dismiss this point.
I don't dismiss it - it must be pretty horrendous being a British Jew right now. I imagine someone walking through central London, or catching a train, and happening across a protest. The intimidation must be pretty extreme.
I'm just not sure that 'causing fear' works as a way to judge the rightness or wrongness of political actions.
The analogy that comes to mind is teemagers. They strike fear into the hearts of many, and sporadic attempts have been made to address this fear (do you remember the mosquito things that only teenagers could hear?). These attempts never work and usually make things worse.
1. Vox-pops, letters pages and phone-ins are there to entertain and fill time/space, not to provide an accurate reflection of the mind of the nation.
2. Speakers' Corner is there for the benefit of the speaker, not the audience.
Twix, Bluesky etc just take those two factors and turn them up to 11. A thousand angry tweets on a subject tells that a thousand people were angry about that subject. Or one person with a thousand online identities. No more than that.
On the face of it, Paul is a raging misogynist, and the Biblical injunction against women taking leadership positions seems quite clear. I have no problem with Christians deciding that they're comfortable disregarding Pauline teaching, or the parts of Leviticus that exercise some of their co-religionists, in favour of concentrating on the gospels and the teaching of Jesus - but it's hardly surprising that it would be controversial to do so. It feels like an at least as radical reinterpretation of Christianity than Protestantism, or the split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
Really? Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
And to be clear, I'm not calling for any protests this weekend to be banned. Let them go ahead if the protestors are nasty enough to want to do it. It's just that I hope the protestors are wise, and kind, enough to take the weekend off.
(I'd also point out that right-wing counter-protestors should also reconsider...)
Hence the need for unhelpfully pedantic regulation, because"do the wise thing" doesn't work.
He was considering moving to London in order to be closer to his son, but said the protests had given him second thoughts.
On further conversation it became clear that he meant the "Tommy Robinson" flag protesters. He didn't mention the Gaza ones.
It's incumbent on us, then, to all step back from time to time and make an extra effort to understand those we disagree with, to reach out to others. To reaffirm the things that unite us that we often overlook in our rush to argue over those points where we disagree.
And I think that is where the organisers of the Gaza protests have fallen short.
The position of many denominations is not to be Biblical liberalism, but rather to believe in continuing revelation and the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, hence doctrines and liturgy continue to evolve.
One is to shun the bad-mannered for being bad-mannered. The other is to celebrate them for getting one over on the squares and olds.
The effectiveness of Ukrainian air defences seems to be decreasing, with the result that Chernihiv in particular suffered damage to its energy infrastructure overnight.
I’ve never understood why the girls who told lies that got Stephan Kiszcow put away for years were not prosecuted for perverting the course of justice.
(We're now getting multiple scrabbling attempts to pin these demos has some kind of celebration of the murders in Manchester. Weird).
There is an undoubted conflate of what Bibi has done to Gaza with Jewish people going about their lawful business. I have no doubt it is extremely uncomfortable to operate normally as a Jewish person in the UK when personal abuse and an even more sinister narrative like that culminating in murders outside a Synagogue is going on and is a clear and present danger. But has anyone on here conflated the two?
I reserve the right to call out Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir by name, but I wouldn't dream of attacking you, or cheering someone else who is attacking you (or worshippers in Manchester) for Israeli Cabinet wickedness. All I have seen on here in relation to the outrage in Manchester is universal condemnation and that is right.
My next criticism of Israel (and it is not a criticism of Jewish people in Golders Green or Prestwich who I suspect would share my horror) will be for their (and it would appear to be official) cosying up to a vile racist called Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. I doubt many on here would disagree with me either.
You ( like me) should be allowed to continue on your way unhindered and in complete safety. The fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman.
On the flip side of course is the baiting of Muslim people going about their lawful business by disciples of the aforementioned Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is also vile. Making British Muslims feel unsafe is as repulsive as making British Jews feel unsafe, and I am afraid to say some of that has spilled onto these pages. Admittedly this is a very small cabal of posters. But nonetheless I wonder how I would feel if I were a fully integrated into society Muslim ( rather than a lapsed Agnostic) when posters go off on some withering Nd disgusting Islamaphobic rant?
Reading it quickly over a matter of weeks led me to realise how inconsistent, contradictory, and perhaps incoherent it is - which is perhaps part of the attraction, and to be expected for something that was written over long periods of time, by many authors, and which has been translated by different cultures, being altered in the process. You can get many different readings on the same topic by reading different parts of the bible, and can pick and choose what you want and interpret it as you want.
After the bible, I read half of the Quran. Only half, as I found it much more disconcerting, as it read as much more of a coherent tale, the literal word of God. That, and the fact it feels more alien to my cultural Christian upbringing.
In the case below, a man who killed another man with a single punch was jailed for 30 months, which is about the same. I'd say this case is worse, as it was apparently multiple hits and kicks, but that might be offset by their age.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35714722
But more interesting for me is why they did it? What was their motivation? This seems rather important.
Not least because there is a lot of fear about. Where in your calculation is the fear of a Palestinian at the risk of being killed by the IDF?
And I acknowledge the futility of coming out onto the streets of UK to protest this, but whilst the UK exports arms to Israel I think it is a valid action.
Even political actions that are designed, or which some taking part hope, will cause fear?
You elide two options that are really quite different. I see no evidence the first is true. The second (that there will always be irredeemably idiotic people at protests) is a universal truth.
"he fact that you feel you can't is an indictments of the British Government since (at the very least) 7th October 2023 and people like Jeremy Corbyn who can't differentiate between Benjamin Netanyahu and Maureen Lipman."
It's not just the government. It's people in society making the choice to spread fear.
The other is about people in our own country.
You make it clear that you 'care' more for people in another country than you do people in ours.
Her argument - from scripture although I haven’t validated it personally - was that women *deacons* were common in the early church as a distinct order to priests (who were men only). Her argument was that women should be appointed as deacons as that would normalise the concept of female catholic leaders.
(I forget her name but she is significant enough to have met the last pope one on one on a couple of occasions).
Current status according to her is that they can’t say no (because it’s a valid argument) but that they don’t want to say yes. So they just don’t answer…
TL:DR; the bible reflects the morals and views not just of God, but of the people who wrote, edited and translated it over the centuries. And also amongst those who read and interpret it now.
It's shockingly modern but I'm reading a history of Prussia. Many in the legal profession were outraged when Frederick the Great restricted (and then banned, I think) torturing people into confession.
I've worked hard to try to keep this discussion not ad hominem.
I'd appreciate you doing the same.
Not having protests this weekend will not cause the Palestinians any additional harm. It will cause a lot of harm, and hurt, to the Jewish community at a time they've been targeted.
That choice seems obvious to me: choose not to protest this week.
In the video that moonshine shared the slogans were about the Israeli Government's treatment of people in Gaza. Not sure why you would find such words unpleasant.
I'm far more bothered by their politics, values, ethics and belief in the Institution. And it seems to be part of the General Synod, yet alone elected as Archbishop, you essentially need to be a Corbynite.
I can't claim any insight into the views of Sarah Mulally, but if she is the tediously right-on leftie she is painted then she matches pretty much all of the views I have heard from the CoE in the past ten years.
She does have an annoying voice though.
To address one of the points you make about why these protests are happening - it's pretty obvious imo. 1) There is something horrible happening that is widely regarded as ethnic cleansing, even genocide, and most of us had an education that means we feel obliged to call such actions out 2) Unusually the UK Government has continued to support the political regime that is accused of these crimes in a way that it has not about, say, Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
To not protest now is to effectively concede that the protests are anti-semitic rather than a protest of the above. They are more important than ever.
NEW THREAD
But things can be multi-causal. You say "why these protests are happening", and give two reasons.
I'll give you a third that you did not mention.
Anti-semitism.
1) All protests must have a decent chance of changing government policy (which these protests have helped to achieve with recognition of a Palestinian state)
2) They must not offend or intimidate anyone else
It's difficult to think of any protest that meets these conditions.
Blowing 60mph gusts since 3pm yesterday and forecast to continue doing so until lunchtime tomorrow…
*not the reason we had to abruptly scrap the holiday
It's the fact the Jewish community have suffered a terrible attack, and common decency would be not to spread more fear amongst them. Let them grieve for a while without piling more fear on them.
I never suggested it was the British Government who "spread fear", they are guilty only if they allow fear to spread unabated, and that goes for any community in Britain..
Several Storm Bastards each Winter, which will be wet, warmer, and windier, and hotter dry summers.
"I wasn't calling you a bastard, you bastard. I was calling that bastard a bastard..."