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Oh, Angie, don’t you weep – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,297
    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    Do keep up, she gets the money back in a few months or years anyway.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,976

    If Rachel was accounts is safe for this reshuffle, he surely can't sack her post the nightmare budget for Christmas.

    Reeves is probably now safe for at least another year. You can’t lose your chancellor and DPM in the space of 2-3 months.
    You can...
    Well, yes, but I don’t think you’d want to!
  • isamisam Posts: 42,482

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    RE-OPEN CURRYGATE!

    Angela Rayner never forgiven Starmer for his attempt to axe her from his team prior to the election. As the former Deputy Prime Minister, she knows where a lot of bodies are buried. And when the moment is right, and Starmer is at his most vulnerable, she will disinter them in spectacular fashion.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15069393/DAN-HODGES-Angela-Rayners-resignation-political-catastrophe-Keir-Starmer-nightmare-truly-begun.html

    More rubbish from Hodges .

    Rayner isn’t going to trash Starmer and help the opposition.
    Yes, this 'knows where the bodies are buried stuff' is always massively overblown. We all waited with bated breath for similar stuff from Dom Cummings that never materialized.
    Apart from getting rid of Johnson by leaking Partygate!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,864
    Peter Mandelson in Downing Street...
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890
    I feel so sad for the centrist political set losing their working class Everyman, or in this case everywoman, it must be appalling for them.

    A true political colossus.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,953
    Scott_xP said:

    Peter Mandelson in Downing Street...

    Now there's a man who knows about top level cabinet resignations...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,297
    isam said:

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    RE-OPEN CURRYGATE!

    Angela Rayner never forgiven Starmer for his attempt to axe her from his team prior to the election. As the former Deputy Prime Minister, she knows where a lot of bodies are buried. And when the moment is right, and Starmer is at his most vulnerable, she will disinter them in spectacular fashion.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15069393/DAN-HODGES-Angela-Rayners-resignation-political-catastrophe-Keir-Starmer-nightmare-truly-begun.html

    More rubbish from Hodges .

    Rayner isn’t going to trash Starmer and help the opposition.
    Yes, this 'knows where the bodies are buried stuff' is always massively overblown. We all waited with bated breath for similar stuff from Dom Cummings that never materialized.
    Apart from getting rid of Johnson by leaking Partygate!
    Also, and speaking generally and definitely not in reference to Mr Cummings, it's the successful leakers who don't get found and publicised. Especially given the confidentiality issues involved with personal data, quite independent of their fiduciary duties.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,810
    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    Now that’s just cynical political posturing, Mrs Rayner would be proud of them.

    (Yes, ministers are officially on three months’ notice, which isn’t particularly outrageous when you think of the personal adjustments required).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,864
    @LadPolitics

    Who will replace Angela Rayner as Deputy Prime Minister?

    We open with 4/1 joint favourites - Wes Streeting & Shabana Mahmood

    Anyone else you'd like added to the betting?

    https://x.com/LadPolitics/status/1963947117031854358
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890

    If she is admitting guilt, and proved guilty by the investigation, Rayner cannot possibly stay as an MP.
    Fraudsters and criminals cannot be legislators.

    She has not been proven to be a fraudster or a criminal. The HMRC can consider seeking a criminal prosecution, but it's highly unlikely they would.

    Fraudsters and criminals can be legislators. A past criminal record is no obstacle to becoming an MP. A jail sentence of more than a year while you are an MP gets you disqualified, but less does not (but will trigger a recall petition).

    There is a very long list of fraudsters and/or criminals who have been or are legislators.
    Indeed, the hyperbole on this issue is reaching absurd proportions. This is the kind of oversight that essentially t the majority of the population would have made, refracted through both the political axe-grinding of the Telegraph, and someone with an unusual amount of information to give them.
    Its the attempted cover up / lies / deflection that has done for her, not the original tax issue. If she had paid the extra on day one of the story, explained the situation honestly, think would have survived and all be forgotten in 6 months. I doubt most people remember her previous run in with the media over confusion about just where she actually lived for years.

    The report explicitly mentions that she didn't act straight away on the issue when it came to light.
    I don't believe that at all. The key error was failing to pay £40k in tax owed.
    I think she could have ridden it out though, if hands up straight away, paid it, then said my personal situation is really complicated, it seems there has been a mistake, teary interview with Beth Rigby. Instead, straight away it was no, nothing to see, then well I am getting new legal advice, but I took loads of legal advice to begin with and they said it was all above board....I think it was over a week later, referred herself to standards.
    There was a court order that prevented her talking about part of the issue that she had to get lifted, however.
    Irrelevant. The court order was over the payment by the NHS to the trust, which initially was claiming this secret info meant she was ok with her tax affairs. Nothing stopping her first paying the extra amount due straight away, then getting the restrictions lifted, finally the teary interview with friendly journalist like Beth Rigby. I think that would have played out much better for her.

    Instead, it went, I have done nothing wrong, are you sure, yes, it appears you have done something wrong, can't talk legal restrictions, here is more evidence, well I got loads of legal advice that told me it was ok, are you sure, yes, I will get new advice, teary interview, proper legal expert you done wrong, extra tax paid, then finally referred to standards who found she didn't get proper legal advice as she claimed.
    That's a somewhat loaded re-telling of events. We're talking days, not weeks or months. She didn't says "loads of legal advice". I don't see how you expect someone to pay the extra amount until they know what the extra amount actually is, which requires waiting for legal advice.

    The central problem is she didn't pay ~£40k in tax she should have, and she's responsible for that. A slightly quicker resolution of that question wouldn't have saved her.
    She claimed she took the advice after consulting 3 different legal opinions. Which appears to be a lie.

    The story was first broken 2 weeks ago. The first week she said nothing to see, go away. The investigation notes that she didn't act straight away and should have done. Wasn't until last weekend did she go and get any advice.
    Which you re-worded to "loads". I've not seen anything showing it was a lie - where was that?
    God you are insufferable sometimes. We aren't peer reviewing academic papers here.

    As for the lie about legal advice. If she had taken advice from 3 different lawyers, she would be able to provide the written evidence. The report notes that the conveyance firm on two instances told her they were not legal tax experts and she should seek such advice, which she did not.
    So, there's no evidence that it's a lie. You have drawn that inference.

    What she didn't do is seek adequate legal advice in which she fully informed the advisor of her situation.

    I really don't know why you are insisting on this line that it's the cover-up that got her. No, it's not paying ~£40k in tax that got her.
    Come on now....your career is on the line, you have been referred to standards investigation. You have claimed in interviews you took 3 separate legal opinions. The standards investigator first question will be can you show me all the legal advice you received. As noted in the report, the only evidence provided was two documents from conveyor firm stating your tax affairs are complicated, we aren't tax advisors, you need to get some. That is clear evidence she doesn't have the sort of legal advice that she claimed she had been given.

    When it comes to legal advice, it is never word of mouth, it is all in writing.

    What I saying is I think Rayner / Starmer wanted to ride this out and I think they might have been able to do if the order of events had been slightly different. Again, the report makes a point of how it was bad that she didn't address this issue as soon as it was raised.
    This is the letter from the Independent Adviser: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68bac57c536d629f9c82ab4b/Letter_from_the_Independent_Adviser_to_the_Prime_Minister.pdf What part of that "makes a point of how it was bad that she didn't address this issue as soon as it was raised"? Or do you mean something else?

    The letter does say:

    "I should acknowledge that Ms Rayner has provided her full and open cooperation in assisting me with my inquiries."

    And:

    "It is the realisation of this error that prompted Ms Rayner, shortly after having received the final tax law advice, to refer the matter to me on Wednesday 3 September."

    Note the use of the word "shortly".

    And:

    "On realisation of this error, she has sought quickly to correct the mistake and to refer herself to HMRC in order to ensure that she pays the correct amount."
    Yet she tried to throw under the bus the companies she had been using. Pretty shitty. Trying to put the blame on them. She’s no saint.

    Their responses were telling.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,641
    Surely an opportunity to get rid of Ed miliband has presented itself. Get rid and drill baby drill.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,750
    Carnyx said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Another issue that has had less focus on with Rayner. She is registered to vote in 3 different places, two via post. That is a very bad look for a leading politician, that she is claiming now Brighton is her home, but not removing herself from her old address.

    Have we have a system that doesn't disallow this I don't know. It is massively open to abuse.

    Annual cycle for registry, remember: selling one house and moving to another would account for at least two.

    And who is getting at information like that on the (presumably) closed register?
    The electoral roll is publicly available.
    No, it isn't; or at least you can be taken off the public roll.
    Most people are on the Open Register, unless they specifically ask to be taken off.
    I think the awareness that the Open Register can be used by third parties is more common knowledge now, and more people are on the closed register than in the past.
    I don't know what other areas do but my local electoral registrar says up front - and twice over - on the annual renewal form that anyone can buy the open register to get your name and address, for "lots of purposes including direct marketing". And the change acts as a toggle, future years default to the closed registet.

    But as discussed, credit scoring firms and - very significantly - political parties can still get to the closed register.
    Just scanning a few authorities from ONS, I'm reckoning about 2/3 of voters are on the closed register.
  • isam said:

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    RE-OPEN CURRYGATE!

    Angela Rayner never forgiven Starmer for his attempt to axe her from his team prior to the election. As the former Deputy Prime Minister, she knows where a lot of bodies are buried. And when the moment is right, and Starmer is at his most vulnerable, she will disinter them in spectacular fashion.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15069393/DAN-HODGES-Angela-Rayners-resignation-political-catastrophe-Keir-Starmer-nightmare-truly-begun.html

    More rubbish from Hodges .

    Rayner isn’t going to trash Starmer and help the opposition.
    Yes, this 'knows where the bodies are buried stuff' is always massively overblown. We all waited with bated breath for similar stuff from Dom Cummings that never materialized.
    Apart from getting rid of Johnson by leaking Partygate!
    It wasn’t partygate that got rid of Boris Johnson, he survived the vote of confidence.

    It was lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority then lying about it and getting ministers to lie about it that got rid of Boris Johnson.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,953
    isam said:

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    RE-OPEN CURRYGATE!

    Angela Rayner never forgiven Starmer for his attempt to axe her from his team prior to the election. As the former Deputy Prime Minister, she knows where a lot of bodies are buried. And when the moment is right, and Starmer is at his most vulnerable, she will disinter them in spectacular fashion.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15069393/DAN-HODGES-Angela-Rayners-resignation-political-catastrophe-Keir-Starmer-nightmare-truly-begun.html

    More rubbish from Hodges .

    Rayner isn’t going to trash Starmer and help the opposition.
    Yes, this 'knows where the bodies are buried stuff' is always massively overblown. We all waited with bated breath for similar stuff from Dom Cummings that never materialized.
    Apart from getting rid of Johnson by leaking Partygate!
    While Partygate certainly damaged Johnson, it was lying to Parliament about the Pincher affair that finished Johnsons career. A completely self inflicted wound caused by covering up for a sexual predator. Right wingers are curiously untroubled by sexual abuse when the perpetrators are older white cis males. I wonder why.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,701
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Peter Mandelson in Downing Street...

    Now there's a man who knows about top level cabinet resignations...
    ... and mortgages.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,033
    Taz said:

    If she is admitting guilt, and proved guilty by the investigation, Rayner cannot possibly stay as an MP.
    Fraudsters and criminals cannot be legislators.

    She has not been proven to be a fraudster or a criminal. The HMRC can consider seeking a criminal prosecution, but it's highly unlikely they would.

    Fraudsters and criminals can be legislators. A past criminal record is no obstacle to becoming an MP. A jail sentence of more than a year while you are an MP gets you disqualified, but less does not (but will trigger a recall petition).

    There is a very long list of fraudsters and/or criminals who have been or are legislators.
    Indeed, the hyperbole on this issue is reaching absurd proportions. This is the kind of oversight that essentially t the majority of the population would have made, refracted through both the political axe-grinding of the Telegraph, and someone with an unusual amount of information to give them.
    Its the attempted cover up / lies / deflection that has done for her, not the original tax issue. If she had paid the extra on day one of the story, explained the situation honestly, think would have survived and all be forgotten in 6 months. I doubt most people remember her previous run in with the media over confusion about just where she actually lived for years.

    The report explicitly mentions that she didn't act straight away on the issue when it came to light.
    I don't believe that at all. The key error was failing to pay £40k in tax owed.
    I think she could have ridden it out though, if hands up straight away, paid it, then said my personal situation is really complicated, it seems there has been a mistake, teary interview with Beth Rigby. Instead, straight away it was no, nothing to see, then well I am getting new legal advice, but I took loads of legal advice to begin with and they said it was all above board....I think it was over a week later, referred herself to standards.
    There was a court order that prevented her talking about part of the issue that she had to get lifted, however.
    Irrelevant. The court order was over the payment by the NHS to the trust, which initially was claiming this secret info meant she was ok with her tax affairs. Nothing stopping her first paying the extra amount due straight away, then getting the restrictions lifted, finally the teary interview with friendly journalist like Beth Rigby. I think that would have played out much better for her.

    Instead, it went, I have done nothing wrong, are you sure, yes, it appears you have done something wrong, can't talk legal restrictions, here is more evidence, well I got loads of legal advice that told me it was ok, are you sure, yes, I will get new advice, teary interview, proper legal expert you done wrong, extra tax paid, then finally referred to standards who found she didn't get proper legal advice as she claimed.
    That's a somewhat loaded re-telling of events. We're talking days, not weeks or months. She didn't says "loads of legal advice". I don't see how you expect someone to pay the extra amount until they know what the extra amount actually is, which requires waiting for legal advice.

    The central problem is she didn't pay ~£40k in tax she should have, and she's responsible for that. A slightly quicker resolution of that question wouldn't have saved her.
    She claimed she took the advice after consulting 3 different legal opinions. Which appears to be a lie.

    The story was first broken 2 weeks ago. The first week she said nothing to see, go away. The investigation notes that she didn't act straight away and should have done. Wasn't until last weekend did she go and get any advice.
    Which you re-worded to "loads". I've not seen anything showing it was a lie - where was that?
    God you are insufferable sometimes. We aren't peer reviewing academic papers here.

    As for the lie about legal advice. If she had taken advice from 3 different lawyers, she would be able to provide the written evidence. The report notes that the conveyance firm on two instances told her they were not legal tax experts and she should seek such advice, which she did not.
    So, there's no evidence that it's a lie. You have drawn that inference.

    What she didn't do is seek adequate legal advice in which she fully informed the advisor of her situation.

    I really don't know why you are insisting on this line that it's the cover-up that got her. No, it's not paying ~£40k in tax that got her.
    Come on now....your career is on the line, you have been referred to standards investigation. You have claimed in interviews you took 3 separate legal opinions. The standards investigator first question will be can you show me all the legal advice you received. As noted in the report, the only evidence provided was two documents from conveyor firm stating your tax affairs are complicated, we aren't tax advisors, you need to get some. That is clear evidence she doesn't have the sort of legal advice that she claimed she had been given.

    When it comes to legal advice, it is never word of mouth, it is all in writing.

    What I saying is I think Rayner / Starmer wanted to ride this out and I think they might have been able to do if the order of events had been slightly different. Again, the report makes a point of how it was bad that she didn't address this issue as soon as it was raised.
    This is the letter from the Independent Adviser: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68bac57c536d629f9c82ab4b/Letter_from_the_Independent_Adviser_to_the_Prime_Minister.pdf What part of that "makes a point of how it was bad that she didn't address this issue as soon as it was raised"? Or do you mean something else?

    The letter does say:

    "I should acknowledge that Ms Rayner has provided her full and open cooperation in assisting me with my inquiries."

    And:

    "It is the realisation of this error that prompted Ms Rayner, shortly after having received the final tax law advice, to refer the matter to me on Wednesday 3 September."

    Note the use of the word "shortly".

    And:

    "On realisation of this error, she has sought quickly to correct the mistake and to refer herself to HMRC in order to ensure that she pays the correct amount."
    Yet she tried to throw under the bus the companies she had been using. Pretty shitty. Trying to put the blame on them. She’s no saint.

    Their responses were telling.
    Sure.

    But I don't think that's why she's gone, or that if she hadn't done that she wouldn't have gone, which appears to be @FrancisUrquhart 's argument, if I've not misunderstood him.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,511
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Have Hyundai been employing 450 illegals in a factory? Or is Trump nuts? Place your bets now...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj6xe5d6103o

    "South Koreans detained in ICE raid at Hyundai electric vehicle site in Georgia"

    Well, there's an interesting fine line that has always existed. When I worked for Goldman Sachs, I regularly traveled to the US for work. Sometimes I'd be in the Goldman Sachs office in New York for a week at a time on a project. I didn't have a visa, I was employed by Goldman Sachs in London. I'd told immigration that I was there for work.

    Was that OK? Or should I have gotten a work visa for that temporary assignment?

    Generally speaking, this stuff is done by 'sniff test'.

    It's entirely possible that Hyundai was pushing the boundaries here. South Koreans without visas, in the US for sustained periods, working for the company. (It is equally worth remembering, though, that the US wants TSMC and others to build fabrication plants in the US. If there's going to be a requirement for every Taiwanese manager coming over to go through the visa process - especially given the current delays in the system - then those plants aren't going to get built in a hurry.)
    Presumably Hyundai themselves have their staff on appropriate visas, perhaps a few overstayers on visit visas working to set up the plant.

    More likely to be ancially staff such as security, cleaners, caterers, building trades etc who aren’t going to be getting visas and aren’t employed directly, but the customer wanted Koreans.
    Well, anyone needing to live in the US with a bank account will have a visa. But what if you are the Hyundai expert on the use of a particular Kuka machine as part of the production line? You'll want to oversee it's installation, but you're not being transferred to the US, you're there for a few weeks.

    But what if that few weeks becomes a month because of delays?

    But you're right: we don't really know yet exactly what has happened. It could be cleaning (or catering) staff. it could be line workers without visas from Central America. It could be Spanish speaking Americans without proper documentation on them.
    I’m sure I’m not the only one who went somewhere for a one-month project and was still there six months later, it happens all the time.

    At some point it does become a problem though, plenty of people in my part of the world take a day trip to neighbouring Oman on a “visa run” purely to renew a UAE visit visa which used to be 30 days (now 60), because there’s fines for overstaying (c.£20/day) and you know you will eventually be caught.

    Any business in the US at the moment should know that the federal government is clamping down on illegal immigration, and everyone on site should have their papers in order. Presumably someone tipped-off the Feds about illegals working there.
    £20 fine is generous, I had a colleague who due to project issues was leaving on the last day of his 4 week visa to KZ. Plane was late and the airport opened immigration just after midnight. He spent 3 days in a cell.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,848
    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,171
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think the nail in the coffin was the statement from her conveyancers after she tried to throw them under the bus.

    I wonder if she had kept strum she might have got away with it. Instead she came out throwing everybody else under the bus, claiming was them lawyers fault.

    I am sure TSE will tell us, "You come at the king lawyers, you best not miss."
    It will annoy many on here, but the Telegraph were at the forefront of the investigations and the only unknown is who was doing the leaking to them ?
    Yup big scalp for the Telegraph. Last night's exclusive statement from the conveyancing firm was when it was all over.
    I did post their statement on here and said I leave it there

    It was obviously a devastating response but the conveyancers were quite rightly defending their position
    Raynor also claimed to have consulted two different trust lawyers, as well as her conveyancers. I presume those consultations turned out to be imaginary, or at the very least wildly insufficient to protect her from any liability.
    I think it is clear she was being dishonest. Two other firms have admitted they have worked with her in the past over her trust and sale her stake in the Ashton house. Both were very clear they were not asked or provided any legal advice on this new property purchase / taxes due.

    Again, I come back to the point who knew the overall picture as it seems lots of people were in the dark.
    My counter to this argument is simple: if she knew she was being dishonest, then she would also have known that she only had to wait six months for her son to be of age at which point she would no longer be liable for the higher rate of stamp duty.

    It just seems completely implausible anyone would knowingly commit fraud in order to gain £40k when they could sit on their backside for six months and gain that £40k legally.

    Rayner was toast the moment it became clear that she had underpaid stamp duty without taking professional advice (or at least read the guidance on gov.uk ...) but the idea that she was deliberately fraudulent doesn’t fit the known facts of the case.
    Criminals tend not to be very clever.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,355
    edited September 5
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think the nail in the coffin was the statement from her conveyancers after she tried to throw them under the bus.

    I wonder if she had kept strum she might have got away with it. Instead she came out throwing everybody else under the bus, claiming was them lawyers fault.

    I am sure TSE will tell us, "You come at the king lawyers, you best not miss."
    It will annoy many on here, but the Telegraph were at the forefront of the investigations and the only unknown is who was doing the leaking to them ?
    Yup big scalp for the Telegraph. Last night's exclusive statement from the conveyancing firm was when it was all over.
    I did post their statement on here and said I leave it there

    It was obviously a devastating response but the conveyancers were quite rightly defending their position
    Raynor also claimed to have consulted two different trust lawyers, as well as her conveyancers. I presume those consultations turned out to be imaginary, or at the very least wildly insufficient to protect her from any liability.
    I think it is clear she was being dishonest. Two other firms have admitted they have worked with her in the past over her trust and sale her stake in the Ashton house. Both were very clear they were not asked or provided any legal advice on this new property purchase / taxes due.

    Again, I come back to the point who knew the overall picture as it seems lots of people were in the dark.
    My counter to this argument is simple: if she knew she was being dishonest, then she would also have known that she only had to wait six months for her son to be of age at which point she would no longer be liable for the higher rate of stamp duty.

    It just seems completely implausible anyone would knowingly commit fraud in order to gain £40k when they could sit on their backside for six months and gain that £40k legally..
    That is different issue to the one I am talking about. I am specifically talking about being dishonest in her response to the media story, where after it was clear telling the media to go away wasn't going to cut it, she then defended herself saying she took these various legal advice and all said she had paid the correct amount.

    What appears to have happened is the conveyancers put on the paperwork (as is standard) we aren't tax experts go and get further advice as you have complex personal tax situation, and she didn't.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018
    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    A quid pro quo might be if Truss relinquishes her Prime Ministerial pension for her five minutes as PM.

    The Tories have their scalp. Why can't they enjoy the win without being vindictive to the woman in her moment of loss? Perhaps because they can't get over that she called them scum.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,763
    MaxPB said:

    Surely an opportunity to get rid of Ed miliband has presented itself. Get rid and drill baby drill.

    Labour's most popular minister. That would push them well down into the teens as the last remnants of the centrist dads abandon them for the Lib Dems.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,941

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Rayner's successor as Deputy Leader will not be Burgon, Abbott, Long-Bailey or any of the other 'hard left' possibilities. The party has changed too much.

    If she was to run for it, I'd put money on Bridget Phillipson being elected. A natural successor to Ange.

    Was it Bridget who said last week that the rights of asylum seekers trump those of people from Epping?
    The right of asylum seekers not to be dumped on the streets trumps the right of the people of Epping to abdicate from our national obligation to take in and process asylum seekers.

    Not such a stirring soundbite but a little more accurate.
    But it's okay for British people to be homeless? I don't see this same absolute obligation to house them.
    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/homelessness-code-of-guidance-for-local-authorities/overview-of-the-homelessness-legislation , paragraph 14

    14. Housing authorities have a duty to take reasonable steps to help prevent any eligible person (regardless of priority need status, intentionality and whether they have a local connection) who is threatened with homelessness from becoming homeless. This means either helping them to stay in their current accommodation or helping them to find a new place to live before they become actually homeless. The prevention duty continues for 56 days unless it is brought to an end by an event such as accommodation being secured for the person, or by their becoming homeless.
    Looks as though, if the authority can wangle a stay of eviction for 57 days they don't have any obligation as their duty has expired. And the duty also ceases if the person is made homeless.

    (I can't follow the link to see what the rest of it says.)
  • I have mentioned before I have a family trust set up (and don’t hate me MaxPB when I say I own six properties).

    The amount of paperwork I had to fill in to make sure my family (both as a group and individuals) paid the right amount of tax now and in the future.

    I had to spend so much money so my accountants and lawyers could talk to each other to ensure there were no gaps in the information.

    I think Rayner thought this would be easy and assumed her advisers would sort it out, she’s not the first person to make that assumption.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,947
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tres said:
    Small boats data
    This page shows figures for the last 7 days for irregular migrants attempting to cross the English Channel in small boats without permission to enter the UK.

    Date Migrants arrived Boats arrived Boats involved in uncontrolled landings Notes
    29 August 2025 0 0 0
    30 August 2025 0 0 0
    31 August 2025 0 0 0
    1 September 2025 0 0 0
    2 September 2025 0 0 0
    3 September 2025 0 0 0
    4 September 2025 0 0 0
    Is this like petty crime in San Francisco, where if you stop reporting it and counting it, then it doesn’t count in the recorded statistics?
    No, it's a consequence of the weather. Arrivals are extremely lumpy and weather dependent.
    Ah so a week of bad weather, rather than any success on the part of the government.
    Yes. It's been very blustery this last week. (And crossings are pretty seasonal too. More in summer. Less in winter.)
    September is the peak month. Same month that William the Conqueror crossed.

    I don't know whether it is solely due to the weather in the Channel, but also in terms of people moving into and across Europe earlier in the year.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,133

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    A quid pro quo might be if Truss relinquishes her Prime Ministerial pension for her five minutes as PM.

    The Tories have their scalp. Why can't they enjoy the win without being vindictive to the woman in her moment of loss? Perhaps because they can't get over that she called them scum.
    Badenoch was particularly loathsome . She really is vile without a single redeeming feature .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,810
    Nigelb said:

    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."

    Ooh, so it’s genuine Koreans from Hyundai, LG etc.

    Could be an interesting diplomatic incident, surely they’ve not let a hundreds of key staff overstay visit visas?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,848

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    A quid pro quo might be if Truss relinquishes her Prime Ministerial pension for her five minutes as PM.

    The Tories have their scalp. Why can't they enjoy the win without being vindictive to the woman in her moment of loss? Perhaps because they can't get over that she called them scum.
    And so go some way to substantiating the epithet.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018
    Scott_xP said:

    Peter Mandelson in Downing Street...

    As an advisor to Rayner to explain how the Ministerial phoenix can rise from the ashes, several times over?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,337
    isam said:

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    RE-OPEN CURRYGATE!

    Angela Rayner never forgiven Starmer for his attempt to axe her from his team prior to the election. As the former Deputy Prime Minister, she knows where a lot of bodies are buried. And when the moment is right, and Starmer is at his most vulnerable, she will disinter them in spectacular fashion.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15069393/DAN-HODGES-Angela-Rayners-resignation-political-catastrophe-Keir-Starmer-nightmare-truly-begun.html

    More rubbish from Hodges .

    Rayner isn’t going to trash Starmer and help the opposition.
    Yes, this 'knows where the bodies are buried stuff' is always massively overblown. We all waited with bated breath for similar stuff from Dom Cummings that never materialized.
    Apart from getting rid of Johnson by leaking Partygate!
    You might have a point, but I think Dom had already departed when a lot of the lockdown-dodging at Number Ten occurred, though that doesn't mean he wasn't passed information by his spies.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,121
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."

    Ooh, so it’s genuine Koreans from Hyundai, LG etc.

    Could be an interesting diplomatic incident, surely they’ve not let a hundreds of key staff overstay visit visas?
    As I said before I’m going for needed in a hurry and couldn’t wait for the visas to arrive
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,171

    I have mentioned before I have a family trust set up (and don’t hate me MaxPB when I say I own six properties).

    The amount of paperwork I had to fill in to make sure my family (both as a group and individuals) paid the right amount of tax now and in the future.

    I had to spend so much money so my accountants and lawyers could talk to each other to ensure there were no gaps in the information.

    I think Rayner thought this would be easy and assumed her advisers would sort it out, she’s not the first person to make that assumption.

    Sorry, why should anyone have sympathy for people who own multiple properties?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018

    isam said:

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    RE-OPEN CURRYGATE!

    Angela Rayner never forgiven Starmer for his attempt to axe her from his team prior to the election. As the former Deputy Prime Minister, she knows where a lot of bodies are buried. And when the moment is right, and Starmer is at his most vulnerable, she will disinter them in spectacular fashion.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15069393/DAN-HODGES-Angela-Rayners-resignation-political-catastrophe-Keir-Starmer-nightmare-truly-begun.html

    More rubbish from Hodges .

    Rayner isn’t going to trash Starmer and help the opposition.
    Yes, this 'knows where the bodies are buried stuff' is always massively overblown. We all waited with bated breath for similar stuff from Dom Cummings that never materialized.
    Apart from getting rid of Johnson by leaking Partygate!
    It wasn’t partygate that got rid of Boris Johnson, he survived the vote of confidence.

    It was lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority then lying about it and getting ministers to lie about it that got rid of Boris Johnson.
    ...but other than that, nothing of substance to report?
  • The betting markets have Wes Streeting and Shabana Mahmood as favourites for next DPM (Streeting 5/1 Will Hill; Mahmood 11/2 Star Sports)

    After that Cooper (6/1 Ladbrokes) and Heeley (8/1 Will Hill)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,297
    tlg86 said:

    I have mentioned before I have a family trust set up (and don’t hate me MaxPB when I say I own six properties).

    The amount of paperwork I had to fill in to make sure my family (both as a group and individuals) paid the right amount of tax now and in the future.

    I had to spend so much money so my accountants and lawyers could talk to each other to ensure there were no gaps in the information.

    I think Rayner thought this would be easy and assumed her advisers would sort it out, she’s not the first person to make that assumption.

    Sorry, why should anyone have sympathy for people who own multiple properties?
    He didn't say he lived in them all.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,171
    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    I have mentioned before I have a family trust set up (and don’t hate me MaxPB when I say I own six properties).

    The amount of paperwork I had to fill in to make sure my family (both as a group and individuals) paid the right amount of tax now and in the future.

    I had to spend so much money so my accountants and lawyers could talk to each other to ensure there were no gaps in the information.

    I think Rayner thought this would be easy and assumed her advisers would sort it out, she’s not the first person to make that assumption.

    Sorry, why should anyone have sympathy for people who own multiple properties?
    He didn't say he lived in them all.
    So what? If you're going to arrange your affairs in such a way, then it is up to you to make sure everything is in order.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,822

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    A quid pro quo might be if Truss relinquishes her Prime Ministerial pension for her five minutes as PM.

    The Tories have their scalp. Why can't they enjoy the win without being vindictive to the woman in her moment of loss? Perhaps because they can't get over that she called them scum.
    They seem keen to prove her right.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,953
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."

    Ooh, so it’s genuine Koreans from Hyundai, LG etc.

    Could be an interesting diplomatic incident, surely they’ve not let a hundreds of key staff overstay visit visas?
    As I said before I’m going for needed in a hurry and couldn’t wait for the visas to arrive
    Reading it, it may well be down to the details of what they were doing and whether it was covered by the terms of the visas that they came in on.

    And of course on ICE being competent and not detaining innocent people.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    A quid pro quo might be if Truss relinquishes her Prime Ministerial pension for her five minutes as PM.

    The Tories have their scalp. Why can't they enjoy the win without being vindictive to the woman in her moment of loss? Perhaps because they can't get over that she called them scum.
    And so go some way to substantiating the epithet.
    Yep.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,297
    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    I have mentioned before I have a family trust set up (and don’t hate me MaxPB when I say I own six properties).

    The amount of paperwork I had to fill in to make sure my family (both as a group and individuals) paid the right amount of tax now and in the future.

    I had to spend so much money so my accountants and lawyers could talk to each other to ensure there were no gaps in the information.

    I think Rayner thought this would be easy and assumed her advisers would sort it out, she’s not the first person to make that assumption.

    Sorry, why should anyone have sympathy for people who own multiple properties?
    He didn't say he lived in them all.
    So what? If you're going to arrange your affairs in such a way, then it is up to you to make sure everything is in order.
    I was making a joke!

    But of course he's being competent and efficient.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,941
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."

    Ooh, so it’s genuine Koreans from Hyundai, LG etc.

    Could be an interesting diplomatic incident, surely they’ve not let a hundreds of key staff overstay visit visas?
    From what YouTube shows me, it seems ICE isn't too bothered about minor excuses like perfectly valid paperwork.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018
    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,953

    The betting markets have Wes Streeting and Shabana Mahmood as favourites for next DPM (Streeting 5/1 Will Hill; Mahmood 11/2 Star Sports)

    After that Cooper (6/1 Ladbrokes) and Heeley (8/1 Will Hill)

    Cooper looks value. Female, close to Starmer, not ambitious for the top job.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,208

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    A quid pro quo might be if Truss relinquishes her Prime Ministerial pension for her five minutes as PM.

    The Tories have their scalp. Why can't they enjoy the win without being vindictive to the woman in her moment of loss? Perhaps because they can't get over that she called them scum.
    I do agree, it’s done. Tories and others need to remember that she was gone after so hard and with zero forgiveness partly because she had been the loudest and most unforgiving about Tory misdemeanours.

    Take the win and move on, we have enough rebuilding to do ourselves so don’t waste any more energy on this however much schadenfreude the right might be feeling.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,976

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
  • eekeek Posts: 31,121

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,953

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    "His" Constituency home is in his partners name, though inhabited only by spiders.

    What is the Stamp Duty position if the money for it came from his account?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,511
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Have Hyundai been employing 450 illegals in a factory? Or is Trump nuts? Place your bets now...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj6xe5d6103o

    "South Koreans detained in ICE raid at Hyundai electric vehicle site in Georgia"

    Well, there's an interesting fine line that has always existed. When I worked for Goldman Sachs, I regularly traveled to the US for work. Sometimes I'd be in the Goldman Sachs office in New York for a week at a time on a project. I didn't have a visa, I was employed by Goldman Sachs in London. I'd told immigration that I was there for work.

    Was that OK? Or should I have gotten a work visa for that temporary assignment?

    Generally speaking, this stuff is done by 'sniff test'.

    It's entirely possible that Hyundai was pushing the boundaries here. South Koreans without visas, in the US for sustained periods, working for the company. (It is equally worth remembering, though, that the US wants TSMC and others to build fabrication plants in the US. If there's going to be a requirement for every Taiwanese manager coming over to go through the visa process - especially given the current delays in the system - then those plants aren't going to get built in a hurry.)
    Presumably Hyundai themselves have their staff on appropriate visas, perhaps a few overstayers on visit visas working to set up the plant.

    More likely to be ancially staff such as security, cleaners, caterers, building trades etc who aren’t going to be getting visas and aren’t employed directly, but the customer wanted Koreans.
    Well, anyone needing to live in the US with a bank account will have a visa. But what if you are the Hyundai expert on the use of a particular Kuka machine as part of the production line? You'll want to oversee it's installation, but you're not being transferred to the US, you're there for a few weeks.

    But what if that few weeks becomes a month because of delays?

    But you're right: we don't really know yet exactly what has happened. It could be cleaning (or catering) staff. it could be line workers without visas from Central America. It could be Spanish speaking Americans without proper documentation on them.
    Doesn't really matter, though.

    The fact that ICE is making a priority of arresting workers in a new build factory representing billions in foreign investment, on a day when abysmal manufacturing jobs numbers are released, and when the president was elected on the promise of deporting rapists and murderers, the "worst of the worst", graphically illustrates the incoherence of the current administration.
    They're on a "numbers" target, sweeping an entire Hyundai factory is a bigger haul than kidnapping hispanic looking people on the street, covered in this podcast ICE - How Trump built an American Gestapo by Origin story
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,976
    edited September 5
    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    It’s not his house then, surely? He might live there, but if it’s not legally owned by him then I’m not sure that means much?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,864

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    It’s not his house then, surely? He might live there, but if it’s not legally owned by him then I’m not sure that means much?
    It does if he is claiming Parliamentary expenses for it?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,033
    edited September 5

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    It’s not his house then, surely? He might live there, but if it’s not legally owned by him then I’m not sure that means much?
    He says he bought a house in Clacton: e.g. https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/clacton-mp-nigel-farage-said-9842675 He did not buy it: his girlfriend bought a house. Is that a lie or just a simplification?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,171
    Scott_xP said:

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    It’s not his house then, surely? He might live there, but if it’s not legally owned by him then I’m not sure that means much?
    It does if he is claiming Parliamentary expenses for it?
    And is he?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,297
    Foxy said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    "His" Constituency home is in his partners name, though inhabited only by spiders.

    What is the Stamp Duty position if the money for it came from his account?
    Would be interesting if the denizens include the Distinguished Jumping Spider (Attulus distinguendus). It's protected ...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,734
    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Have Hyundai been employing 450 illegals in a factory? Or is Trump nuts? Place your bets now...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj6xe5d6103o

    "South Koreans detained in ICE raid at Hyundai electric vehicle site in Georgia"

    Well, there's an interesting fine line that has always existed. When I worked for Goldman Sachs, I regularly traveled to the US for work. Sometimes I'd be in the Goldman Sachs office in New York for a week at a time on a project. I didn't have a visa, I was employed by Goldman Sachs in London. I'd told immigration that I was there for work.

    Was that OK? Or should I have gotten a work visa for that temporary assignment?

    Generally speaking, this stuff is done by 'sniff test'.

    It's entirely possible that Hyundai was pushing the boundaries here. South Koreans without visas, in the US for sustained periods, working for the company. (It is equally worth remembering, though, that the US wants TSMC and others to build fabrication plants in the US. If there's going to be a requirement for every Taiwanese manager coming over to go through the visa process - especially given the current delays in the system - then those plants aren't going to get built in a hurry.)
    Presumably Hyundai themselves have their staff on appropriate visas, perhaps a few overstayers on visit visas working to set up the plant.

    More likely to be ancially staff such as security, cleaners, caterers, building trades etc who aren’t going to be getting visas and aren’t employed directly, but the customer wanted Koreans.
    Well, anyone needing to live in the US with a bank account will have a visa. But what if you are the Hyundai expert on the use of a particular Kuka machine as part of the production line? You'll want to oversee it's installation, but you're not being transferred to the US, you're there for a few weeks.

    But what if that few weeks becomes a month because of delays?

    But you're right: we don't really know yet exactly what has happened. It could be cleaning (or catering) staff. it could be line workers without visas from Central America. It could be Spanish speaking Americans without proper documentation on them.
    Doesn't really matter, though.

    The fact that ICE is making a priority of arresting workers in a new build factory representing billions in foreign investment, on a day when abysmal manufacturing jobs numbers are released, and when the president was elected on the promise of deporting rapists and murderers, the "worst of the worst", graphically illustrates the incoherence of the current administration.
    They're on a "numbers" target, sweeping an entire Hyundai factory is a bigger haul than kidnapping hispanic looking people on the street, covered in this podcast ICE - How Trump built an American Gestapo by Origin story
    Also, this is an electric vehicle/battery plant. According to MAGA religion....
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,606
    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    I have mentioned before I have a family trust set up (and don’t hate me MaxPB when I say I own six properties).

    The amount of paperwork I had to fill in to make sure my family (both as a group and individuals) paid the right amount of tax now and in the future.

    I had to spend so much money so my accountants and lawyers could talk to each other to ensure there were no gaps in the information.

    I think Rayner thought this would be easy and assumed her advisers would sort it out, she’s not the first person to make that assumption.

    Sorry, why should anyone have sympathy for people who own multiple properties?
    He didn't say he lived in them all.
    Legendary modesty precludes?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018
    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    So he didn't need (legally) to pay the full rate of stamp duty.

    Avoidance rather than accidental evasion.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,976
    Scott_xP said:

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    It’s not his house then, surely? He might live there, but if it’s not legally owned by him then I’m not sure that means much?
    It does if he is claiming Parliamentary expenses for it?
    Perhaps. I’ll be honest, I don’t know the answer to that.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,171

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    So he didn't need (legally) to pay the full rate of stamp duty.

    Avoidance rather than accidental evasion.
    Do we know if Sam Tarry owns another property? Rayner could have done the same with the Hove property if he doesn't.

    Of course, buying a property and sticking it in someone else's name is risky...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,953
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    "His" Constituency home is in his partners name, though inhabited only by spiders.

    What is the Stamp Duty position if the money for it came from his account?
    Would be interesting if the denizens include the Distinguished Jumping Spider (Attulus distinguendus). It's protected ...
    I should hope so too if it is Distinguished!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,349
    Dopermean said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    Have Hyundai been employing 450 illegals in a factory? Or is Trump nuts? Place your bets now...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj6xe5d6103o

    "South Koreans detained in ICE raid at Hyundai electric vehicle site in Georgia"

    Well, there's an interesting fine line that has always existed. When I worked for Goldman Sachs, I regularly traveled to the US for work. Sometimes I'd be in the Goldman Sachs office in New York for a week at a time on a project. I didn't have a visa, I was employed by Goldman Sachs in London. I'd told immigration that I was there for work.

    Was that OK? Or should I have gotten a work visa for that temporary assignment?

    Generally speaking, this stuff is done by 'sniff test'.

    It's entirely possible that Hyundai was pushing the boundaries here. South Koreans without visas, in the US for sustained periods, working for the company. (It is equally worth remembering, though, that the US wants TSMC and others to build fabrication plants in the US. If there's going to be a requirement for every Taiwanese manager coming over to go through the visa process - especially given the current delays in the system - then those plants aren't going to get built in a hurry.)
    Presumably Hyundai themselves have their staff on appropriate visas, perhaps a few overstayers on visit visas working to set up the plant.

    More likely to be ancially staff such as security, cleaners, caterers, building trades etc who aren’t going to be getting visas and aren’t employed directly, but the customer wanted Koreans.
    Well, anyone needing to live in the US with a bank account will have a visa. But what if you are the Hyundai expert on the use of a particular Kuka machine as part of the production line? You'll want to oversee it's installation, but you're not being transferred to the US, you're there for a few weeks.

    But what if that few weeks becomes a month because of delays?

    But you're right: we don't really know yet exactly what has happened. It could be cleaning (or catering) staff. it could be line workers without visas from Central America. It could be Spanish speaking Americans without proper documentation on them.
    I’m sure I’m not the only one who went somewhere for a one-month project and was still there six months later, it happens all the time.

    At some point it does become a problem though, plenty of people in my part of the world take a day trip to neighbouring Oman on a “visa run” purely to renew a UAE visit visa which used to be 30 days (now 60), because there’s fines for overstaying (c.£20/day) and you know you will eventually be caught.

    Any business in the US at the moment should know that the federal government is clamping down on illegal immigration, and everyone on site should have their papers in order. Presumably someone tipped-off the Feds about illegals working there.
    £20 fine is generous, I had a colleague who due to project issues was leaving on the last day of his 4 week visa to KZ. Plane was late and the airport opened immigration just after midnight. He spent 3 days in a cell.
    And this is why you never cut it fine with visa end dates.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,947
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."

    Ooh, so it’s genuine Koreans from Hyundai, LG etc.

    Could be an interesting diplomatic incident, surely they’ve not let a hundreds of key staff overstay visit visas?
    As I said before I’m going for needed in a hurry and couldn’t wait for the visas to arrive
    Reading it, it may well be down to the details of what they were doing and whether it was covered by the terms of the visas that they came in on.

    And of course on ICE being competent and not detaining innocent people.
    ICE seem to operate on the principle of arrest people first, lie second, try not to ask questions ever.

    It's entirely plausible that they received a tip-off about foreigners working at the factories, and simply arrested everyone on that basis.
  • Foxy said:

    The betting markets have Wes Streeting and Shabana Mahmood as favourites for next DPM (Streeting 5/1 Will Hill; Mahmood 11/2 Star Sports)

    After that Cooper (6/1 Ladbrokes) and Heeley (8/1 Will Hill)

    Cooper looks value. Female, close to Starmer, not ambitious for the top job.
    Bizarre. Streeting is just about the only one who hasn't ballsed up his brief. Move him and let someone else balls up Health since he failed to do it.

    Cooper, nuff said

    The only one who it would be sensible to move is Reeves and take Housing and Local Goverment away from DPM. but that would be too sensible.

    I saw on Guido they are talking about moving the Defra Secretary. Crikey, most of us thought it was impossible to have a worse Defra Secretary that Liz Truss. Steve Reed makes Liz Truss look good. And that Minister of State, bloody hell !
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,042
    Carnyx said:
    Poor Ian (a relative by marriage of PB's own Roger I believe). Presumably SLab's poor polling might have something to do with it, but a bit unfair not to drag Anas into the conversation about who's responsible, or indeed Sir Keir himself.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,976
    edited September 5
    Foxy said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    "His" Constituency home is in his partners name, though inhabited only by spiders.

    What is the Stamp Duty position if the money for it came from his account?
    The tax would be payable by the legal buyer, I believe. Any money provided to the buyer to enable the purchase might be subject to gifting rules (and checks around the source of funds) but I don’t think there’s anything SDLT-related there

    (disclaimer: I am not a tax lawyer! Please do not refer Angela Rayner or anyone else to me for advice).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,624

    nico67 said:

    Non-farm payrolls 22k.

    Who is Trump going to fire now ?

    The cows for not eating enough.
    Maine is allegedly unhappy, the lobster export trade having largely moved to Canada for both Pacific and Atlantic - much to do with Canada being in the CPTPP and havgin a EUropean trade agreement. The USA's produce get tariffs ...
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,511
    AnneJGP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."

    Ooh, so it’s genuine Koreans from Hyundai, LG etc.

    Could be an interesting diplomatic incident, surely they’ve not let a hundreds of key staff overstay visit visas?
    From what YouTube shows me, it seems ICE isn't too bothered about minor excuses like perfectly valid paperwork.
    Yep, more interested in committing sexual assaults apparently.
    ICE pays less then US police depts
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,624
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    So he didn't need (legally) to pay the full rate of stamp duty.

    Avoidance rather than accidental evasion.
    Do we know if Sam Tarry owns another property? Rayner could have done the same with the Hove property if he doesn't.

    Of course, buying a property and sticking it in someone else's name is risky...
    Would you do that with a relatively new partner and an 800k seafront pad?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,848
    Nigelb said:

    nico67 said:

    Non-farm payrolls 22k.

    Who is Trump going to fire now ?

    The cows for not eating enough.
    Lutnick says the jobs numbers "will get better because you'll take out the people who are just trying to create noise against the president ... this is gonna be the greatest growth economy six months from now, a year from today"
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963942918898561126

    They'd better get someone seriously creative onto those tractor stats.
    That was quick.

    Trump's nominee to run the Bureau of Labor Statistics ran an anonymous Twitter account filled with sexually degrading attacks on Kamala Harris, anti-gay slurs, and far-right conspiracy theories.
    https://x.com/KFILE/status/1963940328437629018
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,919

    eek said:

    I wouldn't argue that Rayner is innocent or that she shouldn't have resigned, but surely the real story here is the one @Roger alluded to yesterday - who informed on her? There's an assassin at the heart of the government, elected or unelected. Their motives are unclear, and, unlike Rayner, they're still there.

    I wouldn't argue that Rayner is innocent or that she shouldn't have resigned, but surely the real story here is the one @Roger alluded to yesterday - who informed on her? There's an assassin at the heart of the government, elected or unelected. Their motives are unclear, and, unlike Rayner, they're still there.

    You can go on public websites like this one and see what stamp duty rate was paid. After the furore over her previous property purchases journalists were inevitably going to check it out. No whistleblower needed.

    https://houseprices.io/?q=NW3+7BG
    Um - where does it show that the transaction type was a btl or second home?
    Ownership of property is also public domain. So if someone (of their trust) owns x bits of property…
    None of the above sources include the stamp duty though. How much stamp duty she paid is between her & HMRC - and presumably anyone involved in carrying out background checks on her who had access to her financial affairs?

    If anyone has evidence to the contrary and can point to a publicly available data source that includes the stamp duty then I’m happy to be corrected obviously!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,337
    "A guide to Hove for Angela Rayner
    Not to be confused with Brighton, thank you very much.

    By Nicholas Lezard"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2025/09/a-guide-to-hove-for-angela-rayner
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,983
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."

    Ooh, so it’s genuine Koreans from Hyundai, LG etc.

    Could be an interesting diplomatic incident, surely they’ve not let a hundreds of key staff overstay visit visas?
    I suppose it depends what they're doing. No visa needed for 90 days for short term visits per US government website:



    All rather definition-dependent though, that.
  • Must be a first as Farage sidelined on his big day by Rayner and Starmer's troubles
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    So he didn't need (legally) to pay the full rate of stamp duty.

    Avoidance rather than accidental evasion.
    Do we know if Sam Tarry owns another property? Rayner could have done the same with the Hove property if he doesn't.

    Of course, buying a property and sticking it in someone else's name is risky...
    Enjoy your win.

    Do you Tories never give up?

    I am reminded of two old boys falling out in the Splottlands in the 1980s. They were both at least in their late seventies and the one had knocked the other to the floor. The upright old fellow had to balance himself using the bar before he could start booting his opponent in the head.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,640
    MattW said:

    nico67 said:

    Non-farm payrolls 22k.

    Who is Trump going to fire now ?

    The cows for not eating enough.
    Maine is allegedly unhappy, the lobster export trade having largely moved to Canada for both Pacific and Atlantic - much to do with Canada being in the CPTPP and havgin a EUropean trade agreement. The USA's produce get tariffs ...
    How does one catch a Pacific lobster in Maine?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,297

    Carnyx said:
    Poor Ian (a relative by marriage of PB's own Roger I believe). Presumably SLab's poor polling might have something to do with it, but a bit unfair not to drag Anas into the conversation about who's responsible, or indeed Sir Keir himself.
    TBF the MP for Red Morningside always seemed to me a bit out of step with the rest of Slab ideologically, Ms Baillie apart perhaps. But wouldn't that put him if anything closer to the SKS end? Of course SKS has more of a range to choose from than when Mr Murray lived in solitary splendour, whether or not bedecked with UFs, and the new lot have had a year or so to make their mark.
  • Yvette Cooper to be moved apparently
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,919

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    TSE has pointed out that a number of MPs might have ... interesting skeletons in their closets when it comes to their housing arrangements, even if they’re legal they look incredibly dicey in this post-expenses scandal era.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,012
    Taz said:

    I feel so sad for the centrist political set losing their working class Everyman, or in this case everywoman, it must be appalling for them.

    A true political colossus.

    You’re almost as obsessed with this mythical centrist hero worship of working class Rayner as you are about Lib Dems. It’s one of your default go-tos.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,864
    @KevinASchofield

    Hearing David Lammy is leaving the Foreign Office and could become justice secretary.

    Would allow Yvette Cooper to become Foreign Secretary if she is replaced by Shabana Mahmood at the Home Office
  • isamisam Posts: 42,482
    Andy_JS said:

    "A guide to Hove for Angela Rayner
    Not to be confused with Brighton, thank you very much.

    By Nicholas Lezard"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2025/09/a-guide-to-hove-for-angela-rayner

    Lots of “Hove Actually” merchandise sold there
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,133

    Must be a first as Farage sidelined on his big day by Rayner and Starmer's troubles

    Yes at least it helped stop the Reform media fawning for a day .
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,337
    edited September 5

    Carnyx said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Another issue that has had less focus on with Rayner. She is registered to vote in 3 different places, two via post. That is a very bad look for a leading politician, that she is claiming now Brighton is her home, but not removing herself from her old address.

    Have we have a system that doesn't disallow this I don't know. It is massively open to abuse.

    Annual cycle for registry, remember: selling one house and moving to another would account for at least two.

    And who is getting at information like that on the (presumably) closed register?
    The electoral roll is publicly available.
    No, it isn't; or at least you can be taken off the public roll.
    Most people are on the Open Register, unless they specifically ask to be taken off.
    I think the awareness that the Open Register can be used by third parties is more common knowledge now, and more people are on the closed register than in the past.
    I don't know what other areas do but my local electoral registrar says up front - and twice over - on the annual renewal form that anyone can buy the open register to get your name and address, for "lots of purposes including direct marketing". And the change acts as a toggle, future years default to the closed registet.

    But as discussed, credit scoring firms and - very significantly - political parties can still get to it ...
    For a political website there is a surprising amount of confusion over this.

    Unless it has changed since I was a councillor, not that long ago; Once upon a time there was only the Open Register. The problem with that was some weirdos like the twerp who killed the Labour MP a few years ago used that to stalk public figures. Therefore they introduced the option of taking your address off the public register as published. But, you still had to be on the closed register. Most people know that.

    However, if you stand for election, or if you are agent for a serving councillor such as a political agent then you are still supplied with the full unredacted register. So this circulates everywhere, it has to. It is used on polling days at polling stations but also used by party workers, of all parties. So in fact the "closed" register stops double glazing salemen, but virtually no-one else.

    Now, being on multiple registers. There is a series of problems with the ROPA, Representation of the People Acts over this because we insist on not having lifelong personal registration, for good reasons maybe, but would in effect be by ID Cards - hence why they don't have this problem in France and why they can't grasp why we have a problem.

    Now, if you have a qualifying property then you should be on the relevant Electoral Register and in theory you could face a fine if you refused registration. But, I don't think that has happened to anyone outside Northern Ireland since 1983. So being on multiple registers is not an issue. And you can have a postal vote for any registration. So for a General Election say you could have 3 or 4 postal votes both legally and properly. The unlawful act would be to use more than one of them at the same election. That is why the electorate numbers for constituencies are probably inflated by about 5%.

    Now, local elections. You have multiple votes, but you should only exercise your vote in one election. You can't vote in say 3 different wards. Exception if there are county and district elections same day for same ward. Then you can vote in both, obviously. But a by-election anywhere where you have a vote, you can vote even if that is not the constituency you actually voted in at the full election.

    If it was found someone had voted twice on the same day in different wards etc etc then I suspect they would be liable to up to 6 mths and disqualification from standing for 5 yrs. I think some of the London causes celebres included this but would be unlikely anyone could trace everything within the 6 mth cut-off.

    That is the simplified version, in reality it is rathr more complicated.
    It's interesting how we had an open electoral register for many decades and no-one ever had any problems with it until about 1999, and that was just one person who complained and took it to court. It shows how responsible most people were back then — that they didn't mis-use the information.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,854
    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Seoul voices regret after about 300 Koreans detained in US immigration raid at Hyundai-LG plant

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/20250905/seoul-voices-regret-after-300-koreans-detained-in-us-immigration-raid-at-hyundai-lg-plant
    The Korean government expressed regret on Friday over a U.S. immigration raid that is believed to have resulted in the detention of about 300 Korean citizens at a Hyundai and LG Energy Solution construction site in Georgia.

    The detainees reportedly included a mix of Hyundai Motor Group affiliate employees and LG Energy Solution headquarters staff who were in the United States on business.

    Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stressed that the business operations of Korean companies should not be disrupted by American law enforcement actions.

    "The economic activities of our investment firms and the rights of our citizens must not be unfairly infringed upon during U.S. law enforcement operations," ministry spokesperson Lee Jae-woong said during a briefing.

    Lee added that the ministry is taking active measures, including dispatching consuls from the Korean Embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in Atlanta to the site and setting up an on-site task force.

    "We have also conveyed our concerns and regret through the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, urging them to ensure that the legitimate rights and interests of our citizens are fully protected," the spokesperson said...


    This, reportedly, is an "unusually strong response". Which translates as the Koreans saying politely "please stop being complete arses."

    Ooh, so it’s genuine Koreans from Hyundai, LG etc.

    Could be an interesting diplomatic incident, surely they’ve not let a hundreds of key staff overstay visit visas?
    I suppose it depends what they're doing. No visa needed for 90 days for short term visits per US government website:



    All rather definition-dependent though, that.
    Knowing the way ICE's been 'working', it might just be that some redneck reported some odd-looking people going into the building...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018
    nico67 said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1963957846929793080

    @GuidoFawkes
    RAYNER: Tories call for Rayner to be stripped of her ministerial severance payment after calculating that she is set to receive £16,876.


    Well that's some of the tax bill paid!

    A quid pro quo might be if Truss relinquishes her Prime Ministerial pension for her five minutes as PM.

    The Tories have their scalp. Why can't they enjoy the win without being vindictive to the woman in her moment of loss? Perhaps because they can't get over that she called them scum.
    Badenoch was particularly loathsome . She really is vile without a single redeeming feature .
    One can but hope that something Badenoch said in Essex crosses the line of slander and Ange sues her for 40 grand.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,482

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    So he didn't need (legally) to pay the full rate of stamp duty.

    Avoidance rather than accidental evasion.
    Do we know if Sam Tarry owns another property? Rayner could have done the same with the Hove property if he doesn't.

    Of course, buying a property and sticking it in someone else's name is risky...
    Enjoy your win.

    Do you Tories never give up?

    I am reminded of two old boys falling out in the Splottlands in the 1980s. They were both at least in their late seventies and the one had knocked the other to the floor. The upright old fellow had to balance himself using the bar before he could start booting his opponent in the head.
    You started it by trying to bring Farage down with Ange!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,780
    Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    2m
    Hearing David Lammy is leaving the Foreign Office and could become justice secretary.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,033
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    nico67 said:

    Non-farm payrolls 22k.

    Who is Trump going to fire now ?

    The cows for not eating enough.
    Lutnick says the jobs numbers "will get better because you'll take out the people who are just trying to create noise against the president ... this is gonna be the greatest growth economy six months from now, a year from today"
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963942918898561126

    They'd better get someone seriously creative onto those tractor stats.
    That was quick.

    Trump's nominee to run the Bureau of Labor Statistics ran an anonymous Twitter account filled with sexually degrading attacks on Kamala Harris, anti-gay slurs, and far-right conspiracy theories.
    https://x.com/KFILE/status/1963940328437629018
    Presumably that's why Trump nominated him.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,012
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    nico67 said:

    Non-farm payrolls 22k.

    Who is Trump going to fire now ?

    The cows for not eating enough.
    Lutnick says the jobs numbers "will get better because you'll take out the people who are just trying to create noise against the president ... this is gonna be the greatest growth economy six months from now, a year from today"
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963942918898561126

    They'd better get someone seriously creative onto those tractor stats.
    That was quick.

    Trump's nominee to run the Bureau of Labor Statistics ran an anonymous Twitter account filled with sexually degrading attacks on Kamala Harris, anti-gay slurs, and far-right conspiracy theories.
    https://x.com/KFILE/status/1963940328437629018
    Pretty solid MAGA CV then, or “resume” as they call it over there.
  • nico67 said:

    Must be a first as Farage sidelined on his big day by Rayner and Starmer's troubles

    Yes at least it helped stop the Reform media fawning for a day .
    Not just today but the news media throughout this weekend

    This seems a very substantial cabinet reshuffle
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,018
    Foss said:
    As we see all these ghouls arrive in Birmingham, I am missing Ange already.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,349
    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Another issue that has had less focus on with Rayner. She is registered to vote in 3 different places, two via post. That is a very bad look for a leading politician, that she is claiming now Brighton is her home, but not removing herself from her old address.

    Have we have a system that doesn't disallow this I don't know. It is massively open to abuse.

    Annual cycle for registry, remember: selling one house and moving to another would account for at least two.

    And who is getting at information like that on the (presumably) closed register?
    The electoral roll is publicly available.
    No, it isn't; or at least you can be taken off the public roll.
    Most people are on the Open Register, unless they specifically ask to be taken off.
    I think the awareness that the Open Register can be used by third parties is more common knowledge now, and more people are on the closed register than in the past.
    I don't know what other areas do but my local electoral registrar says up front - and twice over - on the annual renewal form that anyone can buy the open register to get your name and address, for "lots of purposes including direct marketing". And the change acts as a toggle, future years default to the closed registet.

    But as discussed, credit scoring firms and - very significantly - political parties can still get to it ...
    For a political website there is a surprising amount of confusion over this.

    Unless it has changed since I was a councillor, not that long ago; Once upon a time there was only the Open Register. The problem with that was some weirdos like the twerp who killed the Labour MP a few years ago used that to stalk public figures. Therefore they introduced the option of taking your address off the public register as published. But, you still had to be on the closed register. Most people know that.

    However, if you stand for election, or if you are agent for a serving councillor such as a political agent then you are still supplied with the full unredacted register. So this circulates everywhere, it has to. It is used on polling days at polling stations but also used by party workers, of all parties. So in fact the "closed" register stops double glazing salemen, but virtually no-one else.

    Now, being on multiple registers. There is a series of problems with the ROPA, Representation of the People Acts over this because we insist on not having lifelong personal registration, for good reasons maybe, but would in effect be by ID Cards - hence why they don't have this problem in France and why they can't grasp why we have a problem.

    Now, if you have a qualifying property then you should be on the relevant Electoral Register and in theory you could face a fine if you refused registration. But, I don't think that has happened to anyone outside Northern Ireland since 1983. So being on multiple registers is not an issue. And you can have a postal vote for any registration. So for a General Election say you could have 3 or 4 postal votes both legally and properly. The unlawful act would be to use more than one of them at the same election. That is why the electorate numbers for constituencies are probably inflated by about 5%.

    Now, local elections. You have multiple votes, but you should only exercise your vote in one election. You can't vote in say 3 different wards. Exception if there are county and district elections same day for same ward. Then you can vote in both, obviously. But a by-election anywhere where you have a vote, you can vote even if that is not the constituency you actually voted in at the full election.

    If it was found someone had voted twice on the same day in different wards etc etc then I suspect they would be liable to up to 6 mths and disqualification from standing for 5 yrs. I think some of the London causes celebres included this but would be unlikely anyone could trace everything within the 6 mth cut-off.

    That is the simplified version, in reality it is rathr more complicated.
    It's interesting how we had an open electoral register for many decades and no-one ever had any problems with it until about 1999, and that was just one person who complained and took it to court. It shows how responsible most people were back then — that they didn't mis-use the information.
    It was also the rise of computers and easy scanning and the internet. Before then, you could get the electoral roll, but there was a limit to how much damage you could do with it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,171
    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Is it me or is Farage with his complicated housing arrangements strangely quiet?

    What’s complicated about his housing arrangements? Genuine question
    His house in Clapton isn’t owned by him?
    So he didn't need (legally) to pay the full rate of stamp duty.

    Avoidance rather than accidental evasion.
    Do we know if Sam Tarry owns another property? Rayner could have done the same with the Hove property if he doesn't.

    Of course, buying a property and sticking it in someone else's name is risky...
    Would you do that with a relatively new partner and an 800k seafront pad?
    If she loves him like Farage obviously loves his partner...

    (yes, I know, Farage is wealthy enough to take the gamble).
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,976
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    Hearing David Lammy is leaving the Foreign Office and could become justice secretary.

    Would allow Yvette Cooper to become Foreign Secretary if she is replaced by Shabana Mahmood at the Home Office

    Those feel like rather bizarre and unnecessary changes? Is this all to knock Rayner off the front page?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,780
    "Phase 3 better be a cracker," says one Labour insider
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