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Like Churchill will Boris Johnson defect from the Tories? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,663
edited 6:34AM in General
Like Churchill will Boris Johnson defect from the Tories? – politicalbetting.com

I am not sure there’s any value in these markets. There’s too much ego involved for this to work even before we consider Nigel Farage inability to work well with others.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,591
    Zuerst.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,765
    Despite the attempts by a lot of very sinister bodies to boost Reform, I'm not sure the bandwagon is going to do more than cancel out any Tory recovery. While Banks and others are out there fund raising for Reform and Dorries and others give fealty to Nigel, it all feels a bit fake somehow.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,992
    If Rayner is found to have misbehaved today, is a recall petition possible ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,595

    If Rayner is found to have misbehaved today, is a recall petition possible ?

    The threshold wouldn't be met.

    A recall petition will take place if an MP is:
    • convicted of an offence in the UK and receives a custodial sentence (including a suspended sentence) or is ordered to be detained, other than solely under mental health legislation
    • suspended from the House of Commons for 10 sitting days or 14 calendar days
    • convicted of providing false or misleading information for allowance claims under the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,447

    If Rayner is found to have misbehaved today, is a recall petition possible ?

    No
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,170
    I can’t see Nigel’s ego allowing him to share the spotlight with Boris and I can’t see Boris being subservient to Nigel for long so it’s unlikely. Boris will probably wait until just before the election and see if they are going to win and if so then he might join.

    All depends on what benefits his earning potential and chances of being PM again.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,820
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    £2k/hour to appear on GB News seems more like an undisclosed political donation than a genuine appearance fee. Just another example of how rich rightwing fanatics like GB News owner Marshall are distorting the political conversation.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,591
    Mr Farago is having a rough-in-parts week.

    FPT:

    An unusually straight-from-the-shoulder podcast discussing Nigel Farage from the News Agents, sitting on the sea front at Clacton, including a selection of vox pops as well as Emily Maitlis & Co being unusually blunt.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXB4G1YSp98

    I hadn't twigged that Farage is actually over there to promote GBNews, and the appearance at the Republican controlled committee in Congress was a sideshow; he walked out before his own question session had finished, and was willing to obfuscate about banning journalists from events and communication with Reform led councils.

    It is notable that Paul Marshall is also in the USA, also putting out a "please save us from the UK Government" type line.

    It will be interesting how Free Speech Nigel handles it at the Reform Conference this weekend. We may not hear, because his Party have banned some journalists who do not have opinions they like.

    I'll update a couple of points on my view:

    1 - I said I thought Reform would have to take action against their people or branches which are keen on Tommy Robinson & Co. Judging by his Washington performance, they could potentially jump the other way.
    2 - He could get defenestrated by his own constituency, since he's never seen there
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,447
    Or waits until Nige implodes and then comes in to take over.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,591
    And my love of architecture near Euston Station.:

    If anyone has half an hour for a look at something interesting, I recommend the caryatids in the North and South porches at the 1819 Greek Revival St Pancras New Church which is just across the road.

    It's the only one known to me with these - Greek style figures used as columns - in the country, and is just across the road.

    https://maps.app.goo.gl/tE3oUfc1Ts67wpgp9

    IanVisits article about it, with a piccie of the interior, which was built to seat 2500.

    Open 11-2 6 days a week, or (I assume) service times on Sundays. Art gallery in the crypt.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/inside-the-200-year-old-st-pancras-new-church-56018/
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,170
    O/T I have never heard RFK jr speak before until this morning on Today. He didn’t sound anything like I imagined but like one of those early radio interviews with a decrepit survivor of the US Civil War, a weak and reedy voice like he was struggling, the voice of a very old fragile man.

    I wonder if maybe he has been taken over by the ghost of an 80 year old Civil War veteran hence his somewhat “old fashioned” views on science, or “witchcraft” as our Bobby might call it.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,646
    The Mail are up for reuniting the right;

    https://bsky.app/profile/pmdfoster.bsky.social/post/3ly2zngua7k2k

    Prophetic or pathetic? It's the first time in a long time (since the later 70s?) that they haven't had the government's ear.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,073

    If Rayner is found to have misbehaved today, is a recall petition possible ?

    That can only happen with the following scenarios.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05089/

    A breach of the ministerial code alone can’t lead to a recall petition .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,879
    I am sure that there will be more defections from Badenochs failing Tories to become Reform re-treads, but mostly at the lower levels. Councillors, PCCs, obscure backbench MPs and MSPs, that sort of thing.

    It's a mixed blessing for Farage though. While that does give an infusion of turncoats with a degree of knowledge of how the system works, it does make it harder to differentiate his new broom from a very old and threadbare broom.

    A cabinet of all the talents? No chance.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,483

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    £2k/hour to appear on GB News seems more like an undisclosed political donation than a genuine appearance fee. Just another example of how rich rightwing fanatics like GB News owner Marshall are distorting the political conversation.

    Nigel Farage had a programme on GB News long before his re-entry into the political fray. You just can't bear the fact that someone who you bitterly oppose is doing well.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,975
    On topic, no. Boris has the opposite ideology to Reform on 2 of the 3 issues that define the Trumpist far right: Russia-Ukraine, and climate change.

    On the third, culture war, he may have a similar patter but his record in government is somewhat different.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,727
    FPT overall population density is not a great metric for measuring how much room there is in a country. People in Scotland live in closer proximity to each other than people in England, despite a much lower population density.

    The Netherlands actually has very high number of people living in houses rather than flats, though unlike England they are more likely to be terraced rather than detached. There is plenty of room to go around if only we didn't build these land inefficient detached houses - my tenement was built directly onto farmland in the 19th century and houses 20 people on a footprint that is now taken up by one divorced dad or a widow.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,975
    boulay said:

    O/T I have never heard RFK jr speak before until this morning on Today. He didn’t sound anything like I imagined but like one of those early radio interviews with a decrepit survivor of the US Civil War, a weak and reedy voice like he was struggling, the voice of a very old fragile man.

    I wonder if maybe he has been taken over by the ghost of an 80 year old Civil War veteran hence his somewhat “old fashioned” views on science, or “witchcraft” as our Bobby might call it.

    That’s a good observation. He sounds like an anachronism. I think he, along with Tulsi Gabbard, plays the part of useful idiot for the ideologues in the administration.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813
    boulay said:

    O/T I have never heard RFK jr speak before until this morning on Today. He didn’t sound anything like I imagined but like one of those early radio interviews with a decrepit survivor of the US Civil War, a weak and reedy voice like he was struggling, the voice of a very old fragile man.

    I wonder if maybe he has been taken over by the ghost of an 80 year old Civil War veteran hence his somewhat “old fashioned” views on science, or “witchcraft” as our Bobby might call it.

    A quick google suggests that long term steroid abuse can have similar detrimental effects on the vocal tract.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813

    Fuck's sake.

    I' ve just realised I missed an opportunity to headline this piece with 'Go Nads.'

    Except the Nads are already gone.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,975
    Cicero said:

    Despite the attempts by a lot of very sinister bodies to boost Reform, I'm not sure the bandwagon is going to do more than cancel out any Tory recovery. While Banks and others are out there fund raising for Reform and Dorries and others give fealty to Nigel, it all feels a bit fake somehow.

    Silicon Valley shows that if you put enough money behind an enterprise and keep throwing it in, you can create a self-sustaining bandwagon that carries you all the way to world domination. So I’d not be so relaxed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813

    Nigelb said:

    Will our governments finally grasp that Trump (and any likely GOP successor) is no longer an ally in any real sense to Europe ?

    We are still grossly underestimating the implications of that.
    And one possible future PM is an abject toady towards Trump.

    Bild and Axios: Trump attacked Europe during today's call. The conversation was heated. Trump shifted responsibility for putting pressure on Putin to Europe. Europeans no longer expect Trump to impose sanctions against Russia.

    Trump accused Europeans of buying Russian oil and financing its war machine. Ursula von der Leyen tried to object, saying that Europe had significantly reduced purchases after the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

    Trump was reminded that only Hungary and Slovakia directly import Russian oil. Witkoff turned the tables and accused Europe of buying Russian oil from India.

    When the conversation turned to sanctions, Europe attempted to agree on a joint approach with the American president. The Europeans immediately offered to send their representatives to Washington to set up a working group on sanctions within 48 hours. It is not known whether Trump agreed.

    Trump told the Europeans that they should put pressure on China to give up Russian oil. Trump himself did not introduce secondary duties on China for purchasing oil from Russia, he only introduced them on India.

    Trump emphasized that Europe should put more pressure on Russia.

    After the conversation, Europeans no longer expect Trump to impose sanctions against Russia.

    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1963705264936460405

    Yes. it's all Trumos fault. Europe's just a harmless victim.

    That's the Europe that ignored Putin in 2014, that kept de-scaling it's armed forces, made itself reliant on Russian energy,. The Europe that laughed at Trump and Biden when they said Russia was up to no good that disparaged reports that Russia was going to invade Ukraine and which pleaded helplessness when the tanks rolled over the border.

    Where did I mention 'fault'?

    I'm talking about our country's interests, which require recognising what Trump and his party are.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,646
    boulay said:

    O/T I have never heard RFK jr speak before until this morning on Today. He didn’t sound anything like I imagined but like one of those early radio interviews with a decrepit survivor of the US Civil War, a weak and reedy voice like he was struggling, the voice of a very old fragile man.

    I wonder if maybe he has been taken over by the ghost of an 80 year old Civil War veteran hence his somewhat “old fashioned” views on science, or “witchcraft” as our Bobby might call it.

    And the irony that someone who sounds so unhealthy is Health Secretary is heavy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813

    boulay said:

    O/T I have never heard RFK jr speak before until this morning on Today. He didn’t sound anything like I imagined but like one of those early radio interviews with a decrepit survivor of the US Civil War, a weak and reedy voice like he was struggling, the voice of a very old fragile man.

    I wonder if maybe he has been taken over by the ghost of an 80 year old Civil War veteran hence his somewhat “old fashioned” views on science, or “witchcraft” as our Bobby might call it.

    And the irony that someone who sounds so unhealthy is Health Secretary is heavy.
    More this, I am guessing.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17498324/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,900
    MattW said:

    Mr Farago is having a rough-in-parts week.

    FPT:

    An unusually straight-from-the-shoulder podcast discussing Nigel Farage from the News Agents, sitting on the sea front at Clacton, including a selection of vox pops as well as Emily Maitlis & Co being unusually blunt.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXB4G1YSp98

    I hadn't twigged that Farage is actually over there to promote GBNews, and the appearance at the Republican controlled committee in Congress was a sideshow; he walked out before his own question session had finished, and was willing to obfuscate about banning journalists from events and communication with Reform led councils.

    It is notable that Paul Marshall is also in the USA, also putting out a "please save us from the UK Government" type line.

    It will be interesting how Free Speech Nigel handles it at the Reform Conference this weekend. We may not hear, because his Party have banned some journalists who do not have opinions they like.

    I'll update a couple of points on my view:

    1 - I said I thought Reform would have to take action against their people or branches which are keen on Tommy Robinson & Co. Judging by his Washington performance, they could potentially jump the other way.
    2 - He could get defenestrated by his own constituency, since he's never seen there

    If Nigel's performance had been reported on TV he would have lost votes. It was a car crash, and he was humiliated by Raskin.

    The only BBC coverage I saw was Newsnight where Derbyshire attempted to tear Raskin a new one because of his history with Farage and his insolence to the PM in waiting. Derbyshire has developed into an effective "gotcha" interviewer, but she always seems to start with an agenda. I have no doubt Derbyshire believes Farage to be a clear and present a danger as I do, but a defence of Farage it was nonetheless. Raskin was on his brief and remained untroubled, but why the hostility to him and the defence of Farage's disingenuous "free speech" agenda?

    The News Agents analysis from Clacton was far, far better, but do floating voters all indulge themselves in left wing podcasts by dismissed BBC journalists?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,956
    edited 7:05AM
    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,170
    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    O/T I have never heard RFK jr speak before until this morning on Today. He didn’t sound anything like I imagined but like one of those early radio interviews with a decrepit survivor of the US Civil War, a weak and reedy voice like he was struggling, the voice of a very old fragile man.

    I wonder if maybe he has been taken over by the ghost of an 80 year old Civil War veteran hence his somewhat “old fashioned” views on science, or “witchcraft” as our Bobby might call it.

    A quick google suggests that long term steroid abuse can have similar detrimental effects on the vocal tract.
    Would make sense, you see his Putinesque topless shots and he clearly takes working out seriously but sounds like he’s about to fall off his perch.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813
    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Have you not noticed from the US example that such blatant double standards need not be detrimental to the electoral success of individuals like Trump or Farage, Roger ?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,820

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    £2k/hour to appear on GB News seems more like an undisclosed political donation than a genuine appearance fee. Just another example of how rich rightwing fanatics like GB News owner Marshall are distorting the political conversation.

    Nigel Farage had a programme on GB News long before his re-entry into the political fray. You just can't bear the fact that someone who you bitterly oppose is doing well.
    If you're not worried about the man who could be PM in four years taking oodles of cash (that he's fuelling through a tax avoidance corporate vehicle) from a shadowy billionaire who is also buying up vast swathes of the UK media landscape, then you should be.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,214

    Fuck's sake.

    I' ve just realised I missed an opportunity to headline this piece with 'Go Nads.'

    You're juggling too many balls
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,975
    geoffw said:

    Fuck's sake.

    I' ve just realised I missed an opportunity to headline this piece with 'Go Nads.'

    You're juggling too many balls
    Careful now, you’ll get Graham Linehan going.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,261

    Fuck's sake.

    I' ve just realised I missed an opportunity to headline this piece with 'Go Nads.'

    Esprit des couilles.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782
    Interesting from last night by election in Luton

    LDM 41.3% [-36.3]
    Reform 36.2% [New]
    Labour 11.1% [-11.3]
    Con 6.7% [New]
    Grn 3.8% [New]
    Ind 0.8% [New]

    On the face of it virtually all Reform's votes came from the Lib Dems

    I assume someone can explain this
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,900
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Have you not noticed from the US example that such blatant double standards need not be detrimental to the electoral success of individuals like Trump or Farage, Roger ?
    How GBNews and Talk TV don't cross the threshold of OfCom rules is beyond me. Jamie Raskin held Farage to account in a way, OfCom, the broadcast media, the print media, the Labour Party, the Prime Minister, the Conservative Party and the LOTO don't.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,879
    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    Despite the attempts by a lot of very sinister bodies to boost Reform, I'm not sure the bandwagon is going to do more than cancel out any Tory recovery. While Banks and others are out there fund raising for Reform and Dorries and others give fealty to Nigel, it all feels a bit fake somehow.

    Silicon Valley shows that if you put enough money behind an enterprise and keep throwing it in, you can create a self-sustaining bandwagon that carries you all the way to world domination. So I’d not be so relaxed.
    The 21st century is the era of oligarchy, with corrupt business leaders hand in glove with corrupt politicians to squeeze ever more out of the ordinary folk.

    Reform is a con trick to raise culture wars issues to the fore so that the oligarchs can continue to fleece us. It is why Faragism, Trumpism and Putinism all look so alike.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782
    On topic I would be surprised if Boris joined Reform

    I am delighted Dorries has joined Reform

    Even if I am the last one standing, I will still vote conservative even in next years Senedd vote but may well vote Plaid at the next GE to keep out labour in our constituency
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,975

    Interesting from last night by election in Luton

    LDM 41.3% [-36.3]
    Reform 36.2% [New]
    Labour 11.1% [-11.3]
    Con 6.7% [New]
    Grn 3.8% [New]
    Ind 0.8% [New]

    On the face of it virtually all Reform's votes came from the Lib Dems

    I assume someone can explain this

    Looks like LDs were the NOTA and/or anti-Labour option last time as the Tories weren’t standing. Good to have retained the seat in what on the face of it isn’t a very Lib Demmy looking ward.

    Next time I expect the Labour vote will shrink to near zero if it’s perceived as a LD-Ref fight.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813

    Interesting from last night by election in Luton

    LDM 41.3% [-36.3]
    Reform 36.2% [New]
    Labour 11.1% [-11.3]
    Con 6.7% [New]
    Grn 3.8% [New]
    Ind 0.8% [New]

    On the face of it virtually all Reform's votes came from the Lib Dems

    I assume someone can explain this

    "New" implies that none of those so labelled fielded a candidate last time.

    And for "all Reform's votes" to have come from the LibDems assumes an identical set of voters to last time, which is highly unlikely.

    As we know, one of the reasons for Reform's electoral successes is that they get votes from those who have often not voted in previous elections.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,975
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    Despite the attempts by a lot of very sinister bodies to boost Reform, I'm not sure the bandwagon is going to do more than cancel out any Tory recovery. While Banks and others are out there fund raising for Reform and Dorries and others give fealty to Nigel, it all feels a bit fake somehow.

    Silicon Valley shows that if you put enough money behind an enterprise and keep throwing it in, you can create a self-sustaining bandwagon that carries you all the way to world domination. So I’d not be so relaxed.
    The 21st century is the era of oligarchy, with corrupt business leaders hand in glove with corrupt politicians to squeeze ever more out of the ordinary folk.

    Reform is a con trick to raise culture wars issues to the fore so that the oligarchs can continue to fleece us. It is why Faragism, Trumpism and Putinism all look so alike.

    Brings to mind that great Murdoch and the biscuits on the table cartoon.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,956
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Have you not noticed from the US example that such blatant double standards need not be detrimental to the electoral success of individuals like Trump or Farage, Roger ?
    I have noticed but my hope is that we are due a zeitgeist change and revolting characters like the two you mentioned by constant exposure become as repulsive to the public as they are to many of us at the moment. Talking of revolting people Richard Tice on a visit from Dubai is being eviscerated by Nick Robinson as I type
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,755

    Interesting from last night by election in Luton

    LDM 41.3% [-36.3]
    Reform 36.2% [New]
    Labour 11.1% [-11.3]
    Con 6.7% [New]
    Grn 3.8% [New]
    Ind 0.8% [New]

    On the face of it virtually all Reform's votes came from the Lib Dems

    I assume someone can explain this

    Easy. Only Labour and the LibDems stood last time; this time there was a complete field. Therefore the votes split differently and, in terms of percentage share, HAD to come from LibDem and Labour - and did, pretty much in proportion, from both.

    Of course, given differential turnout it's unlikely the two sets of voters are all the same people.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813

    On topic I would be surprised if Boris joined Reform

    I am delighted Dorries has joined Reform

    Even if I am the last one standing, I will still vote conservative..

    You're forgetting HYUFD, Big_G.
    Just think of it, you two will have the power to split the party.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,646

    Interesting from last night by election in Luton

    LDM 41.3% [-36.3]
    Reform 36.2% [New]
    Labour 11.1% [-11.3]
    Con 6.7% [New]
    Grn 3.8% [New]
    Ind 0.8% [New]

    On the face of it virtually all Reform's votes came from the Lib Dems

    I assume someone can explain this

    Hard to tell when so many parties didn't stand last time. After all, if you were Conservative or Reform minded last time, your options were to vote Lib or Lab or stay on the sofa/go down the pub.

    Local by-elections often boil down to a) can you identify your support and b) can you get them to the polling station? Do those two well enough and you can overcome pretty bad fundamentals.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,755
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    Despite the attempts by a lot of very sinister bodies to boost Reform, I'm not sure the bandwagon is going to do more than cancel out any Tory recovery. While Banks and others are out there fund raising for Reform and Dorries and others give fealty to Nigel, it all feels a bit fake somehow.

    Silicon Valley shows that if you put enough money behind an enterprise and keep throwing it in, you can create a self-sustaining bandwagon that carries you all the way to world domination. So I’d not be so relaxed.
    The 21st century is the era of oligarchy, with corrupt business leaders hand in glove with corrupt politicians to squeeze ever more out of the ordinary folk.

    Reform is a con trick to raise culture wars issues to the fore so that the oligarchs can continue to fleece us. It is why Faragism, Trumpism and Putinism all look so alike.

    It's the long established US GOP formula, where poor people are whipped up about guns and religion and abortion so that they vote for people who will hand over yet more power and wealth to America's super-rich.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813
    The latest legal theory behind presidential powers of execution.

    REPORTER: What legal authority did the Pentagon invoke to strike that boat?

    PETE HEGSETH: We have the absolutely and complete authority

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963785565347717182
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Have you not noticed from the US example that such blatant double standards need not be detrimental to the electoral success of individuals like Trump or Farage, Roger ?
    I have noticed but my hope is that we are due a zeitgeist change and revolting characters like the two you mentioned by constant exposure become as repulsive to the public as they are to many of us at the moment. Talking of revolting people Richard Tice on a visit from Dubai is being eviscerated by Nick Robinson as I type
    Reform are winning all the headlines and no matter how much anyone tries to guilt trip them it is not working

    Reports from Rayner's Ashton constitutuency voters are turning against her and seem to want Reform

    The reason Reform are winning is the stark fact both the conservatives and labour have failed them, and the perception is they are all the same but Reform are new
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,859

    If Rayner is found to have misbehaved today, is a recall petition possible ?

    We’re lucky to have her according to this middle class take which could have come from PB

    https://x.com/telegraph/status/1963640778099466363?s=61
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,907
    edited 7:29AM

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    £2k/hour to appear on GB News seems more like an undisclosed political donation than a genuine appearance fee. Just another example of how rich rightwing fanatics like GB News owner Marshall are distorting the political conversation.

    Nigel Farage had a programme on GB News long before his re-entry into the political fray. You just can't bear the fact that someone who you bitterly oppose is doing well.
    If you're not worried about the man who could be PM in four years taking oodles of cash (that he's fuelling through a tax avoidance corporate vehicle) from a shadowy billionaire who is also buying up vast swathes of the UK media landscape, then you should be.
    The Guardian article is (deliberately?) misleading - if you funnel your income into a ltd company like this then you pay 25% corporation tax, but then you have to pay dividend taxes on top - 8.75% if you’re a lower rate income tax payer & a painful 33.75% if you’re higher rate.

    So a higher rate taxpayer pays ~50% on their marginal income paying themselves this way. A lower rate one pays 31.5%. If you compare with the total tax take for a salaried employee you’ll find the figures are roughly comparable - an employee earning £50k pays 30% of their total cost of employment in taxes (income tax + NI + employers NI) and the marginal rate for a high income earner is 40-45% plus 15% employers NI on top.

    Dividend taxes used to be much lower & it was a huge tax advantage to structure your income through a ltd company. These days, after administration costs you’re probably slightly worse off, but you do get the advantage of being able to structure your income in whatever way you choose, including the ability to spread lumpy income across multiple tax years which can make it worth the effort for some people.

    If you play fast & loose with the corporate credit card you can push some of that income through as expenses of course, but you’re asking for trouble if HMRC ever comes knocking.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,220

    Interesting from last night by election in Luton

    LDM 41.3% [-36.3]
    Reform 36.2% [New]
    Labour 11.1% [-11.3]
    Con 6.7% [New]
    Grn 3.8% [New]
    Ind 0.8% [New]

    On the face of it virtually all Reform's votes came from the Lib Dems

    I assume someone can explain this

    I don't think there's anything to "explain" though I note the inference.

    It's a local by-election, the only one of the week and we know Reform put a lot of effort into the seat. We also know contrary to the last contest, we had Conservative and Green candidates though their efforts were I suspect more nominal - something for supporters of what was once called "the natural party of Government" to explain perhaps.

    Indeed, this contest got coverage in Reform's own paper, the Express. However, the LDs held Reform at bay - such defences are tough and other parties, including yours, have failed miserably against Reform.

    A scare, certainly, and a recognition LD and Reform are often fishing in the same pool of non-committed, disillusioned voters, many of whom were former supporters of both Conservative and Labour.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782
    Nigelb said:

    On topic I would be surprised if Boris joined Reform

    I am delighted Dorries has joined Reform

    Even if I am the last one standing, I will still vote conservative..

    You're forgetting HYUFD, Big_G.
    Just think of it, you two will have the power to split the party.
    That is really funny - thanks
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,859
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    Despite the attempts by a lot of very sinister bodies to boost Reform, I'm not sure the bandwagon is going to do more than cancel out any Tory recovery. While Banks and others are out there fund raising for Reform and Dorries and others give fealty to Nigel, it all feels a bit fake somehow.

    Silicon Valley shows that if you put enough money behind an enterprise and keep throwing it in, you can create a self-sustaining bandwagon that carries you all the way to world domination. So I’d not be so relaxed.
    The 21st century is the era of oligarchy, with corrupt business leaders hand in glove with corrupt politicians to squeeze ever more out of the ordinary folk.

    Reform is a con trick to raise culture wars issues to the fore so that the oligarchs can continue to fleece us. It is why Faragism, Trumpism and Putinism all look so alike.

    Brings to mind that great Murdoch and the biscuits on the table cartoon.
    Has ‘great’ been redefined as ‘tedious, centrist Dad, take that people think is edgy’
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,855
    @imincorrigible.bsky.social‬

    Nick Robinson just asked John Curtice if the BBC giving a platform to Farage & Reform was responsible for their popularity; presumably hoping to hear the polling guru say a resounding "no".

    Instead, Curtice said, "it's not just that, it's also how he uses it"

    So the answer's clearly yes.

    #r4today
  • isamisam Posts: 42,452
    edited 7:34AM
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    Despite the attempts by a lot of very sinister bodies to boost Reform, I'm not sure the bandwagon is going to do more than cancel out any Tory recovery. While Banks and others are out there fund raising for Reform and Dorries and others give fealty to Nigel, it all feels a bit fake somehow.

    Silicon Valley shows that if you put enough money behind an enterprise and keep throwing it in, you can create a self-sustaining bandwagon that carries you all the way to world domination. So I’d not be so relaxed.
    The 21st century is the era of oligarchy, with corrupt business leaders hand in glove with corrupt politicians to squeeze ever more out of the ordinary folk.

    Reform is a con trick to raise culture wars issues to the fore so that the oligarchs can continue to fleece us. It is why Faragism, Trumpism and Putinism all look so alike.

    The last twenty years of Labour & Tory government have transformed the country beyond recognition via mass immigration that was in no manifesto, had young boys and girls told they were in the wrong body and given puberty blockers with no pushback from mainstream politicians, not to mention the unmentionable, and people still think that any reaction to it is part of some shadowy evil plan pushed by big corporations rather than perfectly natural & understandable behaviour from people who’ve been let down and ignored by politicians who took them for granted.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,900
    ...
    Nigelb said:

    The latest legal theory behind presidential powers of execution.

    REPORTER: What legal authority did the Pentagon invoke to strike that boat?

    PETE HEGSETH: We have the absolutely and complete authority

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963785565347717182

    It isn't how democracies are supposed to work, but when all the rules and the checks and balances are jettisoned, he's not wrong. Cheers!🍺🥃🍺🥃🍾🍷🍸🍹🍻🥃🥃
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,859
    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Is this the same as what Sturgeon did to avoid tax ?

    I see nothing wrong with this. If he’s a freelance, and he will be, it makes sense I’ve worked with many who did this.

    Many here do it and many in the media do

    Perhaps we should simply make everyone PAYE then it is not an issue.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,859
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    Despite the attempts by a lot of very sinister bodies to boost Reform, I'm not sure the bandwagon is going to do more than cancel out any Tory recovery. While Banks and others are out there fund raising for Reform and Dorries and others give fealty to Nigel, it all feels a bit fake somehow.

    Silicon Valley shows that if you put enough money behind an enterprise and keep throwing it in, you can create a self-sustaining bandwagon that carries you all the way to world domination. So I’d not be so relaxed.
    The 21st century is the era of oligarchy, with corrupt business leaders hand in glove with corrupt politicians to squeeze ever more out of the ordinary folk.

    Reform is a con trick to raise culture wars issues to the fore so that the oligarchs can continue to fleece us. It is why Faragism, Trumpism and Putinism all look so alike.

    The last twenty years of Labour & Tory government have transformed the country beyond recognition via mass immigration that was in no manifesto, had young boys and girls told they were in the wrong body and given puberty blockers with no pushback from mainstream politicians, not to mention the unmentionable, and people still think that any reaction to it is part of some shadowy evil plan pushed by big corporations rather than perfectly natural & understandable behaviour from people who’ve been let down and ignored by politicians who took them for granted.
    And, don’t forget, told anyone who questioned it they were ‘Far right’ and a ‘bigot’.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,646

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Have you not noticed from the US example that such blatant double standards need not be detrimental to the electoral success of individuals like Trump or Farage, Roger ?
    I have noticed but my hope is that we are due a zeitgeist change and revolting characters like the two you mentioned by constant exposure become as repulsive to the public as they are to many of us at the moment. Talking of revolting people Richard Tice on a visit from Dubai is being eviscerated by Nick Robinson as I type
    Reform are winning all the headlines and no matter how much anyone tries to guilt trip them it is not working

    Reports from Rayner's Ashton constitutuency voters are turning against her and seem to want Reform

    The reason Reform are winning is the stark fact both the conservatives and labour have failed them, and the perception is they are all the same but Reform are new
    Your final paragraph is the heart of the matter.

    Except...

    What would success look like? I think we all agree "not like this". The catch is that it really doesn't feel clear what a realistic path to success looks like. And bluntly, Faragism looks likely to make things worse. In a "I hate this hangover so I'm going to down a bottle of gin, easy on the tonic" way.

    But I don't know how to make that message in the current environment.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,009
    Nigelb said:

    On topic I would be surprised if Boris joined Reform

    I am delighted Dorries has joined Reform

    Even if I am the last one standing, I will still vote conservative..

    You're forgetting HYUFD, Big_G.
    Just think of it, you two will have the power to split the party.
    And both with a taste for Plaid!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782
    Scott_xP said:

    @imincorrigible.bsky.social‬

    Nick Robinson just asked John Curtice if the BBC giving a platform to Farage & Reform was responsible for their popularity; presumably hoping to hear the polling guru say a resounding "no".

    Instead, Curtice said, "it's not just that, it's also how he uses it"

    So the answer's clearly yes.

    #r4today

    Not just the BBC but Sky are providing significant coverage for Farage

    The point that needs to be understood is that no matter how much complaining about coverage, Starmer is PM and has simply lost the narrative and seems to think being Farage lite is the way forward
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,859
    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,128
    Nigelb said:

    The latest legal theory behind presidential powers of execution.

    REPORTER: What legal authority did the Pentagon invoke to strike that boat?

    PETE HEGSETH: We have the absolutely and complete authority

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963785565347717182

    Armed pirates in international waters.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,956
    You can take the boy out of Manchester but you can't take Manchester out of the boy....

    Nick Robinson takes Richard Tice apart (about 8.05)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,505
    Scott_xP said:

    @imincorrigible.bsky.social‬

    Nick Robinson just asked John Curtice if the BBC giving a platform to Farage & Reform was responsible for their popularity; presumably hoping to hear the polling guru say a resounding "no".

    Instead, Curtice said, "it's not just that, it's also how he uses it"

    So the answer's clearly yes.

    #r4today

    The BBC is guilty on several fronts over the last decade or so

    Treating Nigel Lawson as if he is as qualified as actual climate scientists
    Giving Farage and his various parties far more coverage than their then representation / polling warranted
    EDL / Tommy Robinson - Newsnight did a profile several years ago, think it was Katie Razzall
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,009

    Nigelb said:

    The latest legal theory behind presidential powers of execution.

    REPORTER: What legal authority did the Pentagon invoke to strike that boat?

    PETE HEGSETH: We have the absolutely and complete authority

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963785565347717182

    Armed pirates in international waters.
    Isn't there a complete lack of evidence as to what they were, whether that's armed pirates or narco terrorists?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813

    Nigelb said:

    The latest legal theory behind presidential powers of execution.

    REPORTER: What legal authority did the Pentagon invoke to strike that boat?

    PETE HEGSETH: We have the absolutely and complete authority

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963785565347717182

    Armed pirates in international waters.
    That's a bit rude to the USN.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Have you not noticed from the US example that such blatant double standards need not be detrimental to the electoral success of individuals like Trump or Farage, Roger ?
    I have noticed but my hope is that we are due a zeitgeist change and revolting characters like the two you mentioned by constant exposure become as repulsive to the public as they are to many of us at the moment. Talking of revolting people Richard Tice on a visit from Dubai is being eviscerated by Nick Robinson as I type
    Reform are winning all the headlines and no matter how much anyone tries to guilt trip them it is not working

    Reports from Rayner's Ashton constitutuency voters are turning against her and seem to want Reform

    The reason Reform are winning is the stark fact both the conservatives and labour have failed them, and the perception is they are all the same but Reform are new
    Your final paragraph is the heart of the matter.

    Except...

    What would success look like? I think we all agree "not like this". The catch is that it really doesn't feel clear what a realistic path to success looks like. And bluntly, Faragism looks likely to make things worse. In a "I hate this hangover so I'm going to down a bottle of gin, easy on the tonic" way.

    But I don't know how to make that message in the current environment.
    A Farage government leaves me with fear and dread

    The UK does not need a Trump tribute act, but the responsibility now is for Starmer to change the narrative and direction of his government as he is PM for the next 4 years or so [ unless he is forced out]
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,960
    Opponents of Farage (and I count myself among them) need to focus less on the media’s treatment of Farage and more on how to combat him.

    I get that it can be annoying that it sometimes feel that he is getting an easy ride, but that is why it is so important for others to work to change the narrative. He is the manifestation of a lot of genuine grievance out there among voters right now. Perception of the issues needs to change if people like Farage are going to be seen in a different light; regardless of how many times the BBC mentions him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,755
    FPT

    Tomorrow's Guardian front page

    'The conveyancing firm that Angela Rayner used to complete her purchase of an £800,000 flat on the south coast has said it did not offer her tax advice and completed her stamp duty return based only on information she provided'

    I will leave that there

    Parked - alongside Rayner's ambitions
    Will Andy Burnham fancy winning the forthcoming Ashton by-election?
    Not as much as Reform will...
    Come on you PBTories, throw your lot in with Nigel. You know you want to.
    PBTories don’t want to throw their lot in with Nigel, they want their Tory party back. Get Cameron back in, get back to the centre and pray.
    Bobby J. has heeded your clarion call. He's on his way.
    Dear god no. Cameron. Seriously. Best chance of avoiding total wipeout.
    Talking of Cammo, a good friend of mine put together a radio play gently having fun at his Ukraine aid visit to Poland, when people didn't know who he was. It was broadcast Tuesday on R4, available on Sounds, and is 45 mins of light-hearted radio fun.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,960
    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    I fear for Ange that the trust lawyer might just have been someone she spoke to in passing….
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782
    Roger said:

    You can take the boy out of Manchester but you can't take Manchester out of the boy....

    Nick Robinson takes Richard Tice apart (about 8.05)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm

    And it is absolutely not working

    Have you not seen the polls

    Indeed it seems the more they are attacked the more popular they become

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,606

    On topic I would be surprised if Boris joined Reform

    I am delighted Dorries has joined Reform

    Even if I am the last one standing, I will still vote conservative even in next years Senedd vote but may well vote Plaid at the next GE to keep out labour in our constituency

    Crikey, if you do that then HYUFD might finally accept you as a real Conservative!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,073
    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    She told Starmer she had other advisors apart from that conveyancer . Would she just lie to the PM ?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,943

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Have you not noticed from the US example that such blatant double standards need not be detrimental to the electoral success of individuals like Trump or Farage, Roger ?
    I have noticed but my hope is that we are due a zeitgeist change and revolting characters like the two you mentioned by constant exposure become as repulsive to the public as they are to many of us at the moment. Talking of revolting people Richard Tice on a visit from Dubai is being eviscerated by Nick Robinson as I type
    Reform are winning all the headlines and no matter how much anyone tries to guilt trip them it is not working

    Reports from Rayner's Ashton constitutuency voters are turning against her and seem to want Reform

    The reason Reform are winning is the stark fact both the conservatives and labour have failed them, and the perception is they are all the same but Reform are new
    Your final paragraph is the heart of the matter.

    Except...

    What would success look like? I think we all agree "not like this". The catch is that it really doesn't feel clear what a realistic path to success looks like. And bluntly, Faragism looks likely to make things worse. In a "I hate this hangover so I'm going to down a bottle of gin, easy on the tonic" way.

    But I don't know how to make that message in the current environment.
    I read an argument recently that I found interesting and wondered what other people made of it. There are a lot of people who feel worse off, and so they're looking for reasons why, even though income growth hasn't been that bad. The explanation? Car finance.

    The PCP car finance model has encouraged people to buy new cars that they can't afford. This squeezes their remaining disposable income and makes them feel a lot worse off than they are, because they've saddled themselves with a crushing debt for a depreciating asset.

    This has clearly been a victory of marketing for the car manufacturers, but there have been negative consequences for society as a whole, just as there were when gambling companies worked out how effective FOBTs could be at creating gambling addicts.

    I think that if the government could spin down the PCP car finance model then the voters would find they had more disposable income and would feel better for it, even if they had a lower status motor.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782

    Opponents of Farage (and I count myself among them) need to focus less on the media’s treatment of Farage and more on how to combat him.

    I get that it can be annoying that it sometimes feel that he is getting an easy ride, but that is why it is so important for others to work to change the narrative. He is the manifestation of a lot of genuine grievance out there among voters right now. Perception of the issues needs to change if people like Farage are going to be seen in a different light; regardless of how many times the BBC mentions him.

    Spot on
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,391
    Roger said:

    You can take the boy out of Manchester but you can't take Manchester out of the boy....

    Nick Robinson takes Richard Tice apart (about 8.05)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm

    Tice has quite often been OK in interviews, by using the tactic of answering the question, at least up to a point. This morning on R4 Today he was terrible and reverted to very obviously evading dealing with them. His diversions away from the questions were clumsy and illtempered; Robinson was using a somewhat unfair quick fire gotcha approach, but OTOH that's how it goes, and top politicians who want to run the country have to deal with it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,220
    Morning all :)

    Two thoughts this morning - first, as Chris Mason accurately states, it's a lose-lose for Starmer over Rayner. Does his political (and personal) need to keep her in Cabinet outweight the obvious negative impact this story has had and is having on the Government?

    Clearly, if the Ethics committee find she has transgressed, his decision will be easier and he'll have some cover for that decision. If the committee rules she has done nothing wrong, he will again have some cover to retain her in post but the legacy impact of her remaining (particularly with the Housing brief) will be an issue.

    Second, musing on another strong performance for Reform overnight, we will see in May 2026 the true depth of the party's organisation. Winning local by elections is one thing when you can get activists in from nearby but a nationwide set of contests as will be the case next year will be very different. I doubt even Reform can fight everywhere (i'm not expecting to see much of them in Newham for example despite the fact Baxter claims on the latest poll they would win East Ham from Labour) so they will need to play to their strengths.

    The other question is whether the tide will still be flowing for them by then and how they will be if it isn't - that doesn't mean they'll crash to 5% in the polls but if their polling settles at 25-30% they'll need to get their supporters out to have the big impact they need.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782

    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    I fear for Ange that the trust lawyer might just have been someone she spoke to in passing….
    The trust lawyers said they have not been involved since 2020 and Rayner is not a client now
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,128

    Nigelb said:

    The latest legal theory behind presidential powers of execution.

    REPORTER: What legal authority did the Pentagon invoke to strike that boat?

    PETE HEGSETH: We have the absolutely and complete authority

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963785565347717182

    Armed pirates in international waters.
    Isn't there a complete lack of evidence as to what they were, whether that's armed pirates or narco terrorists?
    Piracy is a word for a felony committed at sea, so narco terrorists are also pirates.

    I have seen no-one suggest they were merely enjoying the right of innocent passage.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,711
    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    The Guardian are getting in on the act. Not much of a story but it gives some context to the way different people are treated by nasty rags like the Telegraph who loathe the idea of Rayner having a second home in Hove but don't blink at Farage saving the odd few hundred thousand on a tax wheeze

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/05/nigel-farage-uses-private-company-to-pay-less-tax-on-gb-news-earnings

    Is this the same as what Sturgeon did to avoid tax ?

    I see nothing wrong with this. If he’s a freelance, and he will be, it makes sense I’ve worked with many who did this.

    Many here do it and many in the media do

    Perhaps we should simply make everyone PAYE then it is not an issue.
    When Boris Johnson ran for mayor, Ken Livingstone tried to attack him for doing exactly this, for his (Boris’s) highly paid Telegraph column.

    It turned out that BJ was pretty much the only person in politics who wasn’t using a personal company. He was paying the full wack - ICT and NI.

    It also came out that Ken was using a personal company for his paid media appearances.

    We’ve debated why BJ did this. I think it is significant that he dropped using a personal company just before the MPs expense scandal - MPs expenses were becoming a political issue before, which is why there was such an appetite for the scandal.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,907
    nico67 said:

    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    She told Starmer she had other advisors apart from that conveyancer . Would she just lie to the PM ?
    Probably not, but she might have been ... economical with the actualité. “I had a quick chat with a trust lawyer, but didn’t tell them the full details, nor did I get a written opinion from them” could easily slide into “I consulted a trust lawyer”.

    This is, of course, why lawyers (or at least the sensible ones) take detailed notes of conversations with their clients.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,212
    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    Rayner's problem is that she didn't learn from the old rental income issues from before she became an MP.

    Or rather the lesson that she 'learned' was that she could not declare things properly and then obfuscate her way through difficulties by vaguely refer to 'advice'.

    In a way Rayner has followed Boris in not realising that at a certain level you've got to do things properly.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,791

    Nigelb said:

    The latest legal theory behind presidential powers of execution.

    REPORTER: What legal authority did the Pentagon invoke to strike that boat?

    PETE HEGSETH: We have the absolutely and complete authority

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963785565347717182

    Armed pirates in international waters.
    Isn't there a complete lack of evidence as to what they were, whether that's armed pirates or narco terrorists?
    Piracy is a word for a felony committed at sea, so narco terrorists are also pirates.

    I have seen no-one suggest they were merely enjoying the right of innocent passage.
    "The Pirate Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,933
    Eabhal said:

    FPT overall population density is not a great metric for measuring how much room there is in a country. People in Scotland live in closer proximity to each other than people in England, despite a much lower population density.

    The Netherlands actually has very high number of people living in houses rather than flats, though unlike England they are more likely to be terraced rather than detached. There is plenty of room to go around if only we didn't build these land inefficient detached houses - my tenement was built directly onto farmland in the 19th century and houses 20 people on a footprint that is now taken up by one divorced dad or a widow.

    Not everyone wants to live cheek by jowl with people above and below them , we are not chickens. Any self respecting person would aspire to being detached from the great unwashed.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,782
    Reforms conference today and reports Starmer's ethics advisor will report to him later today

    Now that is one way to take Farage our of the media, because no matter the ethics advisors advice Raynergate is about to be this weekends media story
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,960
    Phil said:

    nico67 said:

    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    She told Starmer she had other advisors apart from that conveyancer . Would she just lie to the PM ?
    Probably not, but she might have been ... economical with the actualité. “I had a quick chat with a trust lawyer, but didn’t tell them the full details, nor did I get a written opinion from them” could easily slide into “I consulted a trust lawyer”.

    This is, of course, why lawyers (or at least the sensible ones) take detailed notes of conversations with their clients.
    Yes, “advice” is doing a lot of the heavy lifting here, it feels to me.

    To me I think the thing that gets her to safety is a written email or piece of advice from a lawyer she has personally engaged to provide it, saying she is in the clear. The fact that nobody so far has said that she was in receipt of full written advice from a retained solicitor suggests to me this might be something more casual (obviously I don’t know). That would be more of a problem for her and leads to a possible conclusion of - she asked some questions, but wasn’t robust enough in confirming the situation or ensuring she had the benefit of written formal advice from a retained lawyer.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,009
    edited 8:02AM

    Nigelb said:

    The latest legal theory behind presidential powers of execution.

    REPORTER: What legal authority did the Pentagon invoke to strike that boat?

    PETE HEGSETH: We have the absolutely and complete authority

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1963785565347717182

    Armed pirates in international waters.
    Isn't there a complete lack of evidence as to what they were, whether that's armed pirates or narco terrorists?
    Piracy is a word for a felony committed at sea, so narco terrorists are also pirates.

    I have seen no-one suggest they were merely enjoying the right of innocent passage.
    The main suggestion is that having 13 people on a smallish boat would be very odd if they were smuggling drugs. It's possible that they were people smugglers or even refugees from the Venezuelan regime that Trump & co are so vociferously negative towards. Of course we'll probably never know and will just have to take the word of that paragon of truthiness, Hegseth.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,073
    edited 8:00AM
    Phil said:

    nico67 said:

    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    She told Starmer she had other advisors apart from that conveyancer . Would she just lie to the PM ?
    Probably not, but she might have been ... economical with the actualité. “I had a quick chat with a trust lawyer, but didn’t tell them the full details, nor did I get a written opinion from them” could easily slide into “I consulted a trust lawyer”.

    This is, of course, why lawyers (or at least the sensible ones) take detailed notes of conversations with their clients.
    Yes that’s certainly a strong possibility. Then it comes down to just her word that she asked for advice . She really needs an email or paper trail showing she was told that only normal stamp duty applied but even then that might read “ according to the information you have provided …..”.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,692
    TimS said:

    Interesting from last night by election in Luton

    LDM 41.3% [-36.3]
    Reform 36.2% [New]
    Labour 11.1% [-11.3]
    Con 6.7% [New]
    Grn 3.8% [New]
    Ind 0.8% [New]

    On the face of it virtually all Reform's votes came from the Lib Dems

    I assume someone can explain this

    Looks like LDs were the NOTA and/or anti-Labour option last time as the Tories weren’t standing. Good to have retained the seat in what on the face of it isn’t a very Lib Demmy looking ward.

    Next time I expect the Labour vote will shrink to near zero if it’s perceived as a LD-Ref fight.
    Morning all.
    Stopsley is very Lib Demmy vote wise. There were boundary changes priot to 2022 but Lib Dems have held the ward named Stopsley throughout the 21st century with big majorities.
    That said its a good hold but shows the LD anti Reform sauce is much more effective in the more Lib Dem friendly demographic areas of leafy sleepy shiretown
    Its poor for Labour and its a shocker for the Tories - under the old boundaries theyd slways at least beat Labour and get a decent % towards 30%. Dont take a cycle off!
  • isamisam Posts: 42,452
    edited 8:02AM
    There was a discussion yesterday about the relevance of what Labour politicians said about Tory misdemeanours in opposition to behaviour of Labour in govt. Many said it was irrelevant, but I think it is actually the most important thing

    Your man in the street wouldn’t normally be that bothered by somebody avoiding stamp duty in the way Rayner has because, let’s face it, we’d all do it if we could. The crime in the eyes of voters is the chasm between the morally superior, pious tone adopted in the last parliament by ‘Mr Rules & Integrity’ and the realisation that they’re all at it. It has been shown for what it always was - a hammily acted pretence designed to fool voters. That’s where the anger comes from
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,933
    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    She is toast and deservedly so, hoist by her own petard.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,212

    Phil said:

    nico67 said:

    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    She told Starmer she had other advisors apart from that conveyancer . Would she just lie to the PM ?
    Probably not, but she might have been ... economical with the actualité. “I had a quick chat with a trust lawyer, but didn’t tell them the full details, nor did I get a written opinion from them” could easily slide into “I consulted a trust lawyer”.

    This is, of course, why lawyers (or at least the sensible ones) take detailed notes of conversations with their clients.
    Yes, “advice” is doing a lot of the heavy lifting here, it feels to me.

    To me I think the thing that gets her to safety is a written email or piece of advice from a lawyer she has personally engaged to provide it, saying she is in the clear. The fact that nobody so far has said that she was in receipt of full written advice from a retained solicitor suggests to me this might be something more casual (obviously I don’t know). That would be more of a problem for her and leads to a possible conclusion of - she asked some questions, but wasn’t robust enough in confirming the situation or ensuring she had the benefit of written formal advice from a retained lawyer.
    I wouldn't expect any tax lawyer to offer their services for free.

    So perhaps Rayner needs to show evidence of payment for tax advice.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,943
    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT overall population density is not a great metric for measuring how much room there is in a country. People in Scotland live in closer proximity to each other than people in England, despite a much lower population density.

    The Netherlands actually has very high number of people living in houses rather than flats, though unlike England they are more likely to be terraced rather than detached. There is plenty of room to go around if only we didn't build these land inefficient detached houses - my tenement was built directly onto farmland in the 19th century and houses 20 people on a footprint that is now taken up by one divorced dad or a widow.

    Not everyone wants to live cheek by jowl with people above and below them , we are not chickens. Any self respecting person would aspire to being detached from the great unwashed.
    We moved to Ireland so that we would be close to my wife's family and her number one requirement for finding a house was that it should be detached.

    I am not missing the sound of a neighbour's TV.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,727
    edited 8:03AM
    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT overall population density is not a great metric for measuring how much room there is in a country. People in Scotland live in closer proximity to each other than people in England, despite a much lower population density.

    The Netherlands actually has very high number of people living in houses rather than flats, though unlike England they are more likely to be terraced rather than detached. There is plenty of room to go around if only we didn't build these land inefficient detached houses - my tenement was built directly onto farmland in the 19th century and houses 20 people on a footprint that is now taken up by one divorced dad or a widow.

    Not everyone wants to live cheek by jowl with people above and below them , we are not chickens. Any self respecting person would aspire to being detached from the great unwashed.
    I'd love to have a big mansion on Barnton Avenue and a small castle in the Highlands too - but that's not going to be possible for 5.6 million people.

    You can hardly call the New Town's apartments or Morningside tenements slums. Indeed, countries like Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland all have higher standards of living than we do, and a much higher proportion of people living in flats.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,956
    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    You can take the boy out of Manchester but you can't take Manchester out of the boy....

    Nick Robinson takes Richard Tice apart (about 8.05)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm

    Tice has quite often been OK in interviews, by using the tactic of answering the question, at least up to a point. This morning on R4 Today he was terrible and reverted to very obviously evading dealing with them. His diversions away from the questions were clumsy and illtempered; Robinson was using a somewhat unfair quick fire gotcha approach, but OTOH that's how it goes, and top politicians who want to run the country have to deal with it.
    It was interesting comparing the interview with Danny Alexander who was being questioned on Rayner with Tice who was being questioned on Farage. It was chalk and cheese. DA was so adept you almost wanted to applaud. Tice by contrast was destroyed. Helped as you suggest by Robinson who was in a different class to the Alexander interviewer
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,481
    Dopermean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @imincorrigible.bsky.social‬

    Nick Robinson just asked John Curtice if the BBC giving a platform to Farage & Reform was responsible for their popularity; presumably hoping to hear the polling guru say a resounding "no".

    Instead, Curtice said, "it's not just that, it's also how he uses it"

    So the answer's clearly yes.

    #r4today

    The BBC is guilty on several fronts over the last decade or so

    Treating Nigel Lawson as if he is as qualified as actual climate scientists
    Giving Farage and his various parties far more coverage than their then representation / polling warranted
    EDL / Tommy Robinson - Newsnight did a profile several years ago, think it was Katie Razzall
    Enoch Powell was correct when he said that a politician complaining about the media is like a ship’s captain complaining about the sea.
  • nico67 said:

    Taz said:

    ‘ The small conveyancing firm that did Angela Rayner’s Hove house purchase say they gave her no tax advice — they’re not even solicitors and have no tax expertise.

    The advisers who set up her trust (from where the Hove deposit came) say they were not involved in any aspect of the Hove purchase.

    The tax barrister who said she’d underpaid stamp duty was only called in after the matter of how much she should pay became a matter of public controversy.

    So from whom did the Deputy PM seek tax advice on the stamp duty she should pay on the Hove home?’


    https://x.com/afneil/status/1963860046284300503?s=61

    She told Starmer she had other advisors apart from that conveyancer . Would she just lie to the PM ?
    Err - Yes ? Would any of the cabinet not just lie to the PM ?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,820
    On topic, no I don't think Johnson will join Reform. For all his manifest faults, Johnson is one of life's natural optimists. That's part of his appeal. Reform is the party of hyperventilating catastrophisers, people who think Peckham is Mogadishu, other assorted angry nihilists and a smattering of closet fascists round the edges. These people are not Boris Johnson's tribe.
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