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The public do not expect Starmer to be Lab leader at the next election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,664
edited 6:06PM in General
The public do not expect Starmer to be Lab leader at the next election – politicalbetting.com

While Keir Starmer yesterday insisted he will definitely lead Labour into the next election, most Britons see this as unlikelyLikely: 32%Unlikely: 53%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,330
    edited September 3
    1st. Like the Trot in the Green leadership ballot.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,761

    1st?

    Only because I took the time to write a proper post…
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,101

    1st?

    Only because I took the time to write a proper post…
    And that was your mistake…
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,330
    If the polls stay as they are, he'll be out in 2028. A year for the newbie to make a difference.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,330
    edited September 3
    N9t only was I first, I was first to reply on topic. Which is definitely a first for me.
  • I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,790
    edited September 3
    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,929

    FPT

    In defence of PCCs they replaced police authorities.

    Which were ineffective, remote and unresponsive to public priorities. And in some cases the police/police unions threatened difficult members to force them to resign from the authorities.

    The PCCs are not perfect, but there is a need for civilian political oversight of police activities and some appointed committee somewhere in a smoke-filled room just doesn’t cut it

    In Leics and Rutland our PCC recently defected to Reform.

    https://www.leicester.news/leicestershire-police-and-crime-commissioner-rupert-matthews-defects-from-tories-to-reform-uk/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,790

    FPT

    In defence of PCCs they replaced police authorities.

    Which were ineffective, remote and unresponsive to public priorities. And in some cases the police/police unions threatened difficult members to force them to resign from the authorities.

    The PCCs are not perfect, but there is a need for civilian political oversight of police activities and some appointed committee somewhere in a smoke-filled room just doesn’t cut it

    It’s a shame that most of the PCC elections came down to a blue rosette or a red rosette, rather than people with experience and ideas about policing policy, that could trial new things in a small area so we could all see what works and what doesn’t.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,831

    1st?

    Only because I took the time to write a proper post…
    Rookie error.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,761
    Foxy said:

    FPT

    In defence of PCCs they replaced police authorities.

    Which were ineffective, remote and unresponsive to public priorities. And in some cases the police/police unions threatened difficult members to force them to resign from the authorities.

    The PCCs are not perfect, but there is a need for civilian political oversight of police activities and some appointed committee somewhere in a smoke-filled room just doesn’t cut it

    In Leics and Rutland our PCC recently defected to Reform.

    https://www.leicester.news/leicestershire-police-and-crime-commissioner-rupert-matthews-defects-from-tories-to-reform-uk/
    And the electorate can sling him out next time if they don’t like that
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,790
    Nigelb said:

    1st?

    Only because I took the time to write a proper post…
    Rookie error.
    A Kimi Antonelli, as we’ll call it this week.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,761
    Nigelb said:

    1st?

    Only because I took the time to write a proper post…
    Rookie error.
    An honourable last second stand based on first principles
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,101

    If the polls stay as they are, he'll be out in 2028. A year for the newbie to make a difference.

    If that happens I look forward to all the labour supporters screaming ' election now!' and saying that if you change leader you HAVE to have an election.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,929

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,794

    If the polls stay as they are, he'll be out in 2028. A year for the newbie to make a difference.

    If that happens I look forward to all the labour supporters screaming ' election now!' and saying that if you change leader you HAVE to have an election.
    Surely you aren't suggesting Labour might be...hypocrites?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,468
    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,831

    If the polls stay as they are, he'll be out in 2028. A year for the newbie to make a difference.

    If that happens I look forward to all the labour supporters screaming ' election now!' and saying that if you change leader you HAVE to have an election.
    That will be only after their second ... or third change of leader.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,122
    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    I’m not a Green supporter but he came across well on Newsnight. If the Greens and Your get together it could be interesting. UK voters aren’t used to voting for an alliance which is much more common on mainland Europe but we certainly aren’t living in normal political times .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,929
    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,831
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    In defence of PCCs they replaced police authorities.

    Which were ineffective, remote and unresponsive to public priorities. And in some cases the police/police unions threatened difficult members to force them to resign from the authorities.

    The PCCs are not perfect, but there is a need for civilian political oversight of police activities and some appointed committee somewhere in a smoke-filled room just doesn’t cut it

    It’s a shame that most of the PCC elections came down to a blue rosette or a red rosette, rather than people with experience and ideas about policing policy, that could trial new things in a small area so we could all see what works and what doesn’t.
    Turnout was less than a quarter of the electorate.
  • I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    To be fair, anyone trying to be British Prime Minister right now who isn't afraid of the consequences hasn't understood the situation.

    And in many ways, I'm fine with gradualism. The last decade has seen a couple of attempts at radical step change (Brexit and Truss) and they have caused a lot of the problems we are currently in.

    But yes, the current politics is dire, and that's perfectly consistent with SKS being the least bad option. We don't have a Presidential system, it's fine for Starmer to be the Kenneth Horne straight man, but he needs Hugh Paddick and Kenneth Williams to orbit him. At the moment, he's Syd Little and they're Eddie Large, and they don't even have a decent scriptwriter.

    (As for Europe, how does the next Labour leadership election not boil down to being Kern On Europe and firing Morgan McSweeney into the Sun?)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,101
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
  • Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    Electorally? Of the Greens? Yep - they will continue to rise.

    Polanski is shittalking on the arrest though - it's absurd. Worse, it gives succour to Musk and "Robinson" and all the other people attacking free speech.
  • 1st. Like the Trot in the Green leadership ballot.

    Like Liz Truss he is a former Lib Dem.

    i have heard some very delicious stuff about him from some Lib Dems, in short, he only joined the Greens because the Lib Dems wouldn't let him stand at the Richmond Park by election/guarantee him a decent seat.

    Also, he also heckled Corbyn because Corbyn was helping to facilitate Brexit.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/let-our-friend-stay-corbyn-insists
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,027
    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    One of the regular joys of PB is supporters of one party bewailing the bastard supporters of another party electing leaders that they don’t like. Very much a Matthew 7:3 situation.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,794
    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    If he was having a laugh, he would have added "Down with this sort of thing"...

    Careful now.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,876
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    I’m sure he’s shitting himself.

    It may be an articulate response but it is far from intelligent.

    Still, I guess it’s Glinner so nicking him is okay because he’s a bit of a berk.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,505
    nico67 said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    I’m not a Green supporter but he came across well on Newsnight. If the Greens and Your get together it could be interesting. UK voters aren’t used to voting for an alliance which is much more common on mainland Europe but we certainly aren’t living in normal political times .
    It would be a mistake for the Greens to become entangled with Corbyn and Sultana, they'd just drag them under.

    It'll interesting to see how the latest former LibDem to be leader of another UK party does, it's a low bar ;)
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,876

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    Electorally? Of the Greens? Yep - they will continue to rise.

    Polanski is shittalking on the arrest though - it's absurd. Worse, it gives succour to Musk and "Robinson" and all the other people attacking free speech.
    The Greens will gain on the swings and lose on the roundabouts.

    Inner city wise they will gain, rural shires Greens aren’t going to want to be voting for the Gaza/Culture wars mob.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,423
    A contrarian view from the FT, which I agree with the sentiment of (even if saint is a massive overstatement, less bad fiscal position than many others is more accurate):

    "The UK is a fiscal saint, not a sinner

    ... Instead, there are three genuine explanations for Britain being singled out for punishment in markets. First, the rise in 30-year UK gilt yields reflects a collapse in demand from defined benefit pension funds as they hit maturity and no longer require such debt in large quantities. Second is the peculiar twice-yearly pass-fail nature of Britain’s fiscal rules, which create destructive industries in forecasting black holes in the public finances and imagining scare stories about who tax rises will hit next. The third is that the binary fiscal rules relate to highly uncertain fiscal forecasts five years hence, set by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, not the current reality.

    ...

    What should the UK government do? In the short term, some decisions are easy. It should direct its Debt Management Office to issue much less long-term debt. UK gilts already have an average maturity of about 14 years, twice the level of other advanced economies on average. There are few risks in dramatically scaling back long-term debt issuance and avoiding paying current high market borrowing costs. The BoE, likewise, will decide this month on its balance sheet run-off and how much of the long-term debt, amassed under quantitative easing, it wants to sell. That’s a monetary policy decision for them, but it is difficult to think of good arguments why very high long-term borrowing costs help manage a short-term inflation problem.

    The government should also move quickly to implement a version of the IMF’s recommendation and limit fiscal forecasts to one a year. The UK is unusual in having two; each one comes with huge amounts of damaging speculation and such a change would not water down Reeves’ “ironclad” rules.

    It is likely that the OBR’s forecasts will still show that tax rises are needed in the Budget in order to hit the fiscal rules by 2030. If so, their implementation should be delayed. There is no need for additional fiscal consolidation immediately."

    https://on.ft.com/3HNCGVf
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,027
    USA now blowing up boats in international waters and killing ‘11 narco terrorists’. Even the IDF might hesitate over that.

    Given Trumpania’s record on wrongfully arresting people on their own territory, I’m sure we can be confident that those summarily executed were in fact narco terrorists.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,935
    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Five armed police officers to arrest one person on arrival at the airport is proportionate to 3 tweets deemed offensive?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,940

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Banning under 16's from Red Bull is a game changer though, they are focussing on the big issues
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,600
    edited September 3

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    If he was having a laugh, he would have added "Down with this sort of thing"...

    Careful now.
    Or said 'that would be an ecumenical matter.'

    Graham Linehan is another example of social media/monomania radicalising people.

    It's cost him a lot of money and his marriage.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,200
    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
  • Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    Electorally? Of the Greens? Yep - they will continue to rise.

    Polanski is shittalking on the arrest though - it's absurd. Worse, it gives succour to Musk and "Robinson" and all the other people attacking free speech.
    The Greens will gain on the swings and lose on the roundabouts.

    Inner city wise they will gain, rural shires Greens aren’t going to want to be voting for the Gaza/Culture wars mob.
    I am anticipating a bit of a shake out. Gaza obsessives go and join Jezbollah. Let the Greens do what JezWeCan could have been - campaigning on social justice.

    Or, both end up shouting "traitor" at each other as they try and outdo each other with their Gaza obsession.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,929

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
    Because Linehan hasn't been in the country until yesterday?

    Like I have said, I do not support the arrest, just as I do not support the arrests of elderly folk holding up posters supporting Palestine Action. We need a better grip on delineating what incitement to violence actually is.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,790

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
    He’s been working in the US.

    There’s suggestions that the Tweets in question were actually sent while he was in the US, in which case the question is what does the conduct of an Irishman in the US have anything to do with the British police in the first place, and can Americans visiting London expect the same treatment?
    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1962872272915431425
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,940
    edited September 3
    nico67 said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    I’m not a Green supporter but he came across well on Newsnight. If the Greens and Your get together it could be interesting. UK voters aren’t used to voting for an alliance which is much more common on mainland Europe but we certainly aren’t living in normal political times .
    Two cheeks of the same arse, both full of loonies.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,027
    edited September 3
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
    Sorry, I love the film but it is accepted usage, just like Hoover describes an overpriced dust sucking machine made in the far east with a UJ sticker bunged on it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,940
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    In defence of PCCs they replaced police authorities.

    Which were ineffective, remote and unresponsive to public priorities. And in some cases the police/police unions threatened difficult members to force them to resign from the authorities.

    The PCCs are not perfect, but there is a need for civilian political oversight of police activities and some appointed committee somewhere in a smoke-filled room just doesn’t cut it

    It’s a shame that most of the PCC elections came down to a blue rosette or a red rosette, rather than people with experience and ideas about policing policy, that could trial new things in a small area so we could all see what works and what doesn’t.
    Can't have that when they need jobs for the boys.
  • dunhamdunham Posts: 22
    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    And also a Mancunian.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,468
    edited September 3
    AnneJGP said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Five armed police officers to arrest one person on arrival at the airport is proportionate to 3 tweets deemed offensive?
    Starmer has form for over reacting to jokes himself

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jul/29/paul-chambers-twitter-joke-airport
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,200

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
    Sorry, I love the film but it is accepted usage, just like Hoover describes an overpriced dust sucking machine made in the far east with a UJ sticker bunged on it.
    Then I shall fight and campaign until people see the real Blimp once more. It does annoy me though because his character is supposed to reflect the national character of the time where he is disciplined and resolute but caring and open minded as opposed to those Nazi chaps.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,505
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    I’m sure he’s shitting himself.

    It may be an articulate response but it is far from intelligent.

    Still, I guess it’s Glinner so nicking him is okay because he’s a bit of a berk.
    I thought yesterday's reposted tweet summed it up best.

    Musing on the issue...

    If you're trans then trans rights affect your entire life
    If you're female then trans rights may impinge on your rights
    But if you're male? Why has Linehan become so obsessed with this?

    And as already posted, the Police just seem to have wasted their time because it's an "easy win".
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,935
    On topic, who is standing head & shoulders above SKS to sweep everything before them?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,285
    edited September 3
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
    Two different things, to some extent, [edit], I think. The film is actually in part subverting the prseconceptions of Blimps by making the point they mean well and are decent personally but still out of date.

    The film is late WW2 - very much we're all in it together sort of message was needed at the time. But the notion of Col Blimp was created by Low the cartoonist in 1934 fide the OED. For instance Graun 1935 "The authors are by no means Colonel Blimps: they even..dare to utter sacrilegious things about the holy ritual of cricket."

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,929
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
    I know the film well, indeed I rated it 5* on Letterboxd.

    My ★★★★★ review of The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp on Letterboxd https://boxd.it/7SOk2D

    My reference is to the cartoon character invented by Low in 1934, who is quite different to the film character.

    "Blimp was a satire on the political opinions of the British establishment of the 1930s and 1940s. The characters was intended to criticise attitudes such as isolationism, impatience with the British public's concerns and a lack of enthusiasm for democracy. These were attitudes which Low, a New Zealander, considered as being common in British politics."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_Blimp
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,027
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
    Sorry, I love the film but it is accepted usage, just like Hoover describes an overpriced dust sucking machine made in the far east with a UJ sticker bunged on it.
    Then I shall fight and campaign until people see the real Blimp once more. It does annoy me though because his character is supposed to reflect the national character of the time where he is disciplined and resolute but caring and open minded as opposed to those Nazi chaps.
    A noble cause, I might even vote for you. Didn’t Churchill want the film banned originally? Suggests the misunderstanding started early on.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,940
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
    He’s been working in the US.

    There’s suggestions that the Tweets in question were actually sent while he was in the US, in which case the question is what does the conduct of an Irishman in the US have anything to do with the British police in the first place, and can Americans visiting London expect the same treatment?
    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1962872272915431425
    So, several months old, made furth of our jurisdiction and @Foxy thinks Polanski saying he should be arrested is a clever response? Am I keeping up?
    One hopes he was being sarcastic
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,935
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
    He’s been working in the US.

    There’s suggestions that the Tweets in question were actually sent while he was in the US, in which case the question is what does the conduct of an Irishman in the US have anything to do with the British police in the first place, and can Americans visiting London expect the same treatment?
    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1962872272915431425
    People on YouTube have been speculating about that. Undermining the tourist industry is a great plan.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,330
    AnneJGP said:

    On topic, who is standing head & shoulders above SKS to sweep everything before them?

    Sadly, it is Farage.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,929

    USA now blowing up boats in international waters and killing ‘11 narco terrorists’. Even the IDF might hesitate over that.

    Given Trumpania’s record on wrongfully arresting people on their own territory, I’m sure we can be confident that those summarily executed were in fact narco terrorists.

    The crazy bit isnt the extra judicial killing in international waters, it is doing it in order that he could post it on Social Media.
  • AnneJGP said:

    On topic, who is standing head & shoulders above SKS to sweep everything before them?

    Churchill: Où est la masse de manœuvre?
    Gamelin: Aucune.

    Hence a well-meaning political nonentity as PM, and chancers leading most of the opposition parties.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,136
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
    Sorry, I love the film but it is accepted usage, just like Hoover describes an overpriced dust sucking machine made in the far east with a UJ sticker bunged on it.
    Then I shall fight and campaign until people see the real Blimp once more. It does annoy me though because his character is supposed to reflect the national character of the time where he is disciplined and resolute but caring and open minded as opposed to those Nazi chaps.
    The literary misquotation that annoys me is when people use "Up to a point, Lord Copper" to literally mean "Up to a point". The point of the phrase in Evelyn Waugh's Scoop is that it's the most violent disagreement that his terrified assistant allows himself to express.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,935

    AnneJGP said:

    On topic, who is standing head & shoulders above SKS to sweep everything before them?

    Sadly, it is Farage.
    I'd give that a Like but I don't like the idea. ISTM we do need someone who can take hold of the present surge and direct it into healthy productive channels. A surge of virtuous national pride determined to resolve some of our problems. But all we've got so far are either rabble rousing or suppressing. Can't see either of those ending well.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,122
    DavidL said:

    In more concrete matters relating to Starmer's future we have just had our 11th consecutive month with manufacturing PMIs below 50, that is indicating a future contraction and the latest figure is one of the worst: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-factories-stumble-as-new-orders-fall-back-pmi-shows/ar-AA1LD3ZA?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=68b69efe1dfd4e56a1a8495a30003596&ei=27

    I may have mentioned our trade deficit from time to time in passing. This really isn't helping. Its time we had a government more focused on the day job.

    The economy is only staying afloat because of services . The latest update to that is due out shortly .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,929
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
    He’s been working in the US.

    There’s suggestions that the Tweets in question were actually sent while he was in the US, in which case the question is what does the conduct of an Irishman in the US have anything to do with the British police in the first place, and can Americans visiting London expect the same treatment?
    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1962872272915431425
    So, several months old, made furth of our jurisdiction and @Foxy thinks Polanski saying he should be arrested is a clever response? Am I keeping up?
    One hopes he was being sarcastic
    No, I was not.

    Linehan was arrested for inciting violence as a hate crime. If we are to have such laws on the books then we should enforce them.

    I don't think the law is fit in it's current form and should be revised. Incitement to violence should only be considered criminal if there is a realistic expectation of violence as a result.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,136
    Dopermean said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    I’m sure he’s shitting himself.

    It may be an articulate response but it is far from intelligent.

    Still, I guess it’s Glinner so nicking him is okay because he’s a bit of a berk.
    I thought yesterday's reposted tweet summed it up best.

    Musing on the issue...

    If you're trans then trans rights affect your entire life
    If you're female then trans rights may impinge on your rights
    But if you're male? Why has Linehan become so obsessed with this?

    And as already posted, the Police just seem to have wasted their time because it's an "easy win".
    I think that Linehan is a nasty piece of work who's comments shade into abuse and ridicule in a way that even incredibly passionate partisans like JK Rowling never do. What angered me about his tweet was the bit that said "if a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act". I think women have every right to protect single sex space but to assume that any trans woman who wants to use a bathroom is motivated by violence is insane. Having said all that, in a sane world he'd just be banned from X rather than arrested.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,612
    Foxy said:

    FPT

    In defence of PCCs they replaced police authorities.

    Which were ineffective, remote and unresponsive to public priorities. And in some cases the police/police unions threatened difficult members to force them to resign from the authorities.

    The PCCs are not perfect, but there is a need for civilian political oversight of police activities and some appointed committee somewhere in a smoke-filled room just doesn’t cut it

    In Leics and Rutland our PCC recently defected to Reform.

    https://www.leicester.news/leicestershire-police-and-crime-commissioner-rupert-matthews-defects-from-tories-to-reform-uk/
    Is that a first, unless perhaps the Mayors of Greater Lincs and Hull & East Yorkshire have the role?

    One to watch.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,612
    edited September 3
    ..
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,391
    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,045
    If Reform continue to lead the polls for the next few years then Starmer might not lead Labour into the next general election with Angela Rayner his likeliest replacement. However Andy Burnham is the only alternative Labour leader who might make a difference in the polls and he is not even an MP
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,863
    Foxy said:

    USA now blowing up boats in international waters and killing ‘11 narco terrorists’. Even the IDF might hesitate over that.

    Given Trumpania’s record on wrongfully arresting people on their own territory, I’m sure we can be confident that those summarily executed were in fact narco terrorists.

    The crazy bit isnt the extra judicial killing in international waters, it is doing it in order that he could post it on Social Media.
    Killing people for content

    How far away are we from The Running Man, or The hunger Games?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,391
    Stereodog said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
    Sorry, I love the film but it is accepted usage, just like Hoover describes an overpriced dust sucking machine made in the far east with a UJ sticker bunged on it.
    Then I shall fight and campaign until people see the real Blimp once more. It does annoy me though because his character is supposed to reflect the national character of the time where he is disciplined and resolute but caring and open minded as opposed to those Nazi chaps.
    The literary misquotation that annoys me is when people use "Up to a point, Lord Copper" to literally mean "Up to a point". The point of the phrase in Evelyn Waugh's Scoop is that it's the most violent disagreement that his terrified assistant allows himself to express.
    Agreed, but a pedant also asks: What is the 'literal' meaning of 'Up to a point'?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,045
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
    A Labour government won't ever deliver deep austerity, its MPs and members will always force it to tax the rich and higher earners more instead
  • Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    USA now blowing up boats in international waters and killing ‘11 narco terrorists’. Even the IDF might hesitate over that.

    Given Trumpania’s record on wrongfully arresting people on their own territory, I’m sure we can be confident that those summarily executed were in fact narco terrorists.

    The crazy bit isnt the extra judicial killing in international waters, it is doing it in order that he could post it on Social Media.
    Killing people for content

    How far away are we from The Running Man, or The hunger Games?
    That's next week.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,505
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
    He’s been working in the US.

    There’s suggestions that the Tweets in question were actually sent while he was in the US, in which case the question is what does the conduct of an Irishman in the US have anything to do with the British police in the first place, and can Americans visiting London expect the same treatment?
    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1962872272915431425
    So, several months old, made furth of our jurisdiction and @Foxy thinks Polanski saying he should be arrested is a clever response? Am I keeping up?
    One hopes he was being sarcastic
    No, I was not.

    Linehan was arrested for inciting violence as a hate crime. If we are to have such laws on the books then we should enforce them.

    I don't think the law is fit in it's current form and should be revised. Incitement to violence should only be considered criminal if there is a realistic expectation of violence as a result.
    I'd agree with that and also that there are degrees of violence.
    Setting fire to homes is a higher degree than a "punch in the balls" and inciting arson when there are arsonists on the street is a higher degree.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,748
    @MattW the incident you mentioned on the last thread is is quite common on social media btw. The kind of thing I would have done in my teens but the kinetic energy involved is pretty extreme.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,935
    Foxy said:

    USA now blowing up boats in international waters and killing ‘11 narco terrorists’. Even the IDF might hesitate over that.

    Given Trumpania’s record on wrongfully arresting people on their own territory, I’m sure we can be confident that those summarily executed were in fact narco terrorists.

    The crazy bit isnt the extra judicial killing in international waters, it is doing it in order that he could post it on Social Media.
    Clearly a candidate for arrest as soon as his plane lands in the UK?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,761
    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    That’s rather unfair

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything homophobic or individually anti-Semitic on here.

    There is @Casino_Royale and the vegan venison, I’ll give you that…
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,874
    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    In more concrete matters relating to Starmer's future we have just had our 11th consecutive month with manufacturing PMIs below 50, that is indicating a future contraction and the latest figure is one of the worst: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-factories-stumble-as-new-orders-fall-back-pmi-shows/ar-AA1LD3ZA?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=68b69efe1dfd4e56a1a8495a30003596&ei=27

    I may have mentioned our trade deficit from time to time in passing. This really isn't helping. Its time we had a government more focused on the day job.

    The economy is only staying afloat because of services . The latest update to that is due out shortly .
    Yes and to be fair that has largely been the case for 30 years or more. But what we are not seeing is any sign of investment in new production in the UK, any uplift in training, any growth in productivity, any facilitation of growth by removing planning hurdles or otherwise, any attempt to encourage entrepreneurial activity in the UK, it makes you despair. What we got instead was the increase in Employers NI and an above inflation increase in the minimum wage with inevitable consequences for the level of employment.

    It just won't do. Our forthcoming budget needs to focus on growth (as Reeves herself recognised before the election). That means finding ways to boost investment through more generous allowances, encouraging training, not hammering Entrepreneurial Relief or Capital Gains or share based ISAs, looking at why London is struggling to compete in the IPO market, etc etc. I fear we are going to see the reverse as our Chancellor scrabbles around for a few billion more taxes to make her nonsensical targets and kick the can down the road for a few more months.
    My new brainiac IQ 190 squillionaire friend, who was freaking out about the gilts market months ago (presciently) is now freaking out about gilts EVEN MORE

    He says the government is “driving straight into a brick wall”. He thinks the present gilts “crisis” is maybe the markets reacting to Starmer’s “phase 2” speech which didn’t acknowledge the fiscal emergency at all

    He says, as tax rises won’t work, borrowing can’t be done, and the government refuses to cut, we “may become Turkey or Argentina for a bit”

    🫣

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,790
    Well it’s fair to say that the free speech advocates in the US have picked up the Graham Linehan story - although many of them seem a little confused at the British use of the term “armed police”.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,122
    edited September 3
    Farage seems to be calling for the US to use trade as a way to force changes to our rules around free speech .

    One can only imagine the furore if the EU tried to interfere in this way. Farage is a fxcking traitor who is effectively asking the US to economically harm the UK .
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,748
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
    He’s been working in the US.

    There’s suggestions that the Tweets in question were actually sent while he was in the US, in which case the question is what does the conduct of an Irishman in the US have anything to do with the British police in the first place, and can Americans visiting London expect the same treatment?
    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1962872272915431425
    So, several months old, made furth of our jurisdiction and @Foxy thinks Polanski saying he should be arrested is a clever response? Am I keeping up?
    One hopes he was being sarcastic
    No, I was not.

    Linehan was arrested for inciting violence as a hate crime. If we are to have such laws on the books then we should enforce them.

    I don't think the law is fit in it's current form and should be revised. Incitement to violence should only be considered criminal if there is a realistic expectation of violence as a result.
    That sounds reasonable but I'm not sure that would stop Linehan being arrested - physical violence against Trans people has grown rapidly in the last few years and I think you could make a solid case the online activities of individuals like him has contributed to it.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,136
    algarkirk said:

    Stereodog said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    Why do people on here insist on using Colonel Blimp as some sort of alternate for Gammon or social conservative right winger?

    Whilst Blimp is a stickler for things being done properly, especially military issues, he is clearly, especially for his era, a liberal, open minded and kind honourable man. His attitude to women and to his German “adversary”, his internationalism and his dislike of war don’t put him in the category people think he was when they think they are being sharp using him as a criticism.

    Maybe watch the film and know about the ciphers you use rather than just lazily throw them out there.
    Sorry, I love the film but it is accepted usage, just like Hoover describes an overpriced dust sucking machine made in the far east with a UJ sticker bunged on it.
    Then I shall fight and campaign until people see the real Blimp once more. It does annoy me though because his character is supposed to reflect the national character of the time where he is disciplined and resolute but caring and open minded as opposed to those Nazi chaps.
    The literary misquotation that annoys me is when people use "Up to a point, Lord Copper" to literally mean "Up to a point". The point of the phrase in Evelyn Waugh's Scoop is that it's the most violent disagreement that his terrified assistant allows himself to express.
    Agreed, but a pedant also asks: What is the 'literal' meaning of 'Up to a point'?

    Ha fair point. In pedantry terms that's getting close to 'is a rock literally rock or just a linguistic token we assign to the hard thing which is literally a rock'
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,640
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    In more concrete matters relating to Starmer's future we have just had our 11th consecutive month with manufacturing PMIs below 50, that is indicating a future contraction and the latest figure is one of the worst: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-factories-stumble-as-new-orders-fall-back-pmi-shows/ar-AA1LD3ZA?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=68b69efe1dfd4e56a1a8495a30003596&ei=27

    I may have mentioned our trade deficit from time to time in passing. This really isn't helping. Its time we had a government more focused on the day job.

    The economy is only staying afloat because of services . The latest update to that is due out shortly .
    Yes and to be fair that has largely been the case for 30 years or more. But what we are not seeing is any sign of investment in new production in the UK, any uplift in training, any growth in productivity, any facilitation of growth by removing planning hurdles or otherwise, any attempt to encourage entrepreneurial activity in the UK, it makes you despair. What we got instead was the increase in Employers NI and an above inflation increase in the minimum wage with inevitable consequences for the level of employment.

    It just won't do. Our forthcoming budget needs to focus on growth (as Reeves herself recognised before the election). That means finding ways to boost investment through more generous allowances, encouraging training, not hammering Entrepreneurial Relief or Capital Gains or share based ISAs, looking at why London is struggling to compete in the IPO market, etc etc. I fear we are going to see the reverse as our Chancellor scrabbles around for a few billion more taxes to make her nonsensical targets and kick the can down the road for a few more months.
    My new brainiac IQ 190 squillionaire friend, who was freaking out about the gilts market months ago (presciently) is now freaking out about gilts EVEN MORE

    He says the government is “driving straight into a brick wall”. He thinks the present gilts “crisis” is maybe the markets reacting to Starmer’s “phase 2” speech which didn’t acknowledge the fiscal emergency at all

    He says, as tax rises won’t work, borrowing can’t be done, and the government refuses to cut, we “may become Turkey or Argentina for a bit”

    🫣

    Argentina has always been the unlikely but potentially realistic outcome of a Labour government.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,287
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
    That really is an excellent summary of our position and the challenges we face. Note debt interest's significant contribution to the increasing deficit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,790
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    In more concrete matters relating to Starmer's future we have just had our 11th consecutive month with manufacturing PMIs below 50, that is indicating a future contraction and the latest figure is one of the worst: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-factories-stumble-as-new-orders-fall-back-pmi-shows/ar-AA1LD3ZA?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=68b69efe1dfd4e56a1a8495a30003596&ei=27

    I may have mentioned our trade deficit from time to time in passing. This really isn't helping. Its time we had a government more focused on the day job.

    The economy is only staying afloat because of services . The latest update to that is due out shortly .
    Yes and to be fair that has largely been the case for 30 years or more. But what we are not seeing is any sign of investment in new production in the UK, any uplift in training, any growth in productivity, any facilitation of growth by removing planning hurdles or otherwise, any attempt to encourage entrepreneurial activity in the UK, it makes you despair. What we got instead was the increase in Employers NI and an above inflation increase in the minimum wage with inevitable consequences for the level of employment.

    It just won't do. Our forthcoming budget needs to focus on growth (as Reeves herself recognised before the election). That means finding ways to boost investment through more generous allowances, encouraging training, not hammering Entrepreneurial Relief or Capital Gains or share based ISAs, looking at why London is struggling to compete in the IPO market, etc etc. I fear we are going to see the reverse as our Chancellor scrabbles around for a few billion more taxes to make her nonsensical targets and kick the can down the road for a few more months.
    My new brainiac IQ 190 squillionaire friend, who was freaking out about the gilts market months ago (presciently) is now freaking out about gilts EVEN MORE

    He says the government is “driving straight into a brick wall”. He thinks the present gilts “crisis” is maybe the markets reacting to Starmer’s “phase 2” speech which didn’t acknowledge the fiscal emergency at all

    He says, as tax rises won’t work, borrowing can’t be done, and the government refuses to cut, we “may become Turkey or Argentina for a bit”

    🫣

    Argentina has always been the unlikely but potentially realistic outcome of a Labour government.
    So who’s the British Javier Milei, and can we just cut to that stage as soon as possible please?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,951

    1st?

    Only because I took the time to write a proper post…
    Schoolboy error...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,391
    WRT Starmer being replaced and the political future; a factor as yet not in play.

    If we reach a 2027/8 with a reasonable chance that Reform heads the next government, but with perhaps 60%+ of voters being opposed to the idea, then there is a decent chance of 'Stop Farage' thinking coalescing around an alternative.

    Few alternatives are available, and if by then the Tories are seen as an adjunct to Reform not an alternative, then 'Labour led' is the only one.

    Who are the leaders who could lead Labour in that setting? Perhaps Streeting, but he is going to lose his seat next time. Not Rayner, not Burnham.

    Jones? Bell?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,790
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
    That really is an excellent summary of our position and the challenges we face. Note debt interest's significant contribution to the increasing deficit.
    There was always going to be this doom loop once a decade and a half of effectively zero interest rates ended, but governments thought it wasn’t going to end on their watch.

    Instead we are all now like Gordon Brown’s much lauded (by himself) ending of the economic cycle, which of course was true until it wasn’t and finished with a nasty recession.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,045
    edited September 3
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    In more concrete matters relating to Starmer's future we have just had our 11th consecutive month with manufacturing PMIs below 50, that is indicating a future contraction and the latest figure is one of the worst: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-factories-stumble-as-new-orders-fall-back-pmi-shows/ar-AA1LD3ZA?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=68b69efe1dfd4e56a1a8495a30003596&ei=27

    I may have mentioned our trade deficit from time to time in passing. This really isn't helping. Its time we had a government more focused on the day job.

    The economy is only staying afloat because of services . The latest update to that is due out shortly .
    Yes and to be fair that has largely been the case for 30 years or more. But what we are not seeing is any sign of investment in new production in the UK, any uplift in training, any growth in productivity, any facilitation of growth by removing planning hurdles or otherwise, any attempt to encourage entrepreneurial activity in the UK, it makes you despair. What we got instead was the increase in Employers NI and an above inflation increase in the minimum wage with inevitable consequences for the level of employment.

    It just won't do. Our forthcoming budget needs to focus on growth (as Reeves herself recognised before the election). That means finding ways to boost investment through more generous allowances, encouraging training, not hammering Entrepreneurial Relief or Capital Gains or share based ISAs, looking at why London is struggling to compete in the IPO market, etc etc. I fear we are going to see the reverse as our Chancellor scrabbles around for a few billion more taxes to make her nonsensical targets and kick the can down the road for a few more months.
    My new brainiac IQ 190 squillionaire friend, who was freaking out about the gilts market months ago (presciently) is now freaking out about gilts EVEN MORE

    He says the government is “driving straight into a brick wall”. He thinks the present gilts “crisis” is maybe the markets reacting to Starmer’s “phase 2” speech which didn’t acknowledge the fiscal emergency at all

    He says, as tax rises won’t
    work, borrowing can’t be done,
    and the government refuses to
    cut, we “may become Turkey or
    Argentina for a bit”

    🫣

    Except Argentina now under
    uber Thatcherite Milei has
    slashed spending and cut tax
    and is seen as a role model by
    Kemi. France, when under Francois Hollande and his Socialist government, may be a better model for where we head under Starmer Labour
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,874
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
    That really is an excellent summary of our position and the challenges we face. Note debt interest's significant contribution to the increasing deficit.
    Maybe Allister Heath is right - for once - and we will get a new election. If my friend is right and cutting spending is the only way, but Labour MPs refuse to do it, then either the government prints money and inflation explodes, then we go bust anyway (in the end), or we have an election to elect MPs who WILL cut spending
  • HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
    A Labour government won't ever deliver deep austerity, its MPs and members will always force it to tax the rich and higher earners more instead
    Nobody else will either. Because nobody knows how to get elected promising fiscal continence or how to get re-elected after delivering it.

    Especially with gobby yobs on the left and right saying it can all be done by hitting various undesirables.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,761
    Stereodog said:

    Dopermean said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    I’m sure he’s shitting himself.

    It may be an articulate response but it is far from intelligent.

    Still, I guess it’s Glinner so nicking him is okay because he’s a bit of a berk.
    I thought yesterday's reposted tweet summed it up best.

    Musing on the issue...

    If you're trans then trans rights affect your entire life
    If you're female then trans rights may impinge on your rights
    But if you're male? Why has Linehan become so obsessed with this?

    And as already posted, the Police just seem to have wasted their time because it's an "easy win".
    I think that Linehan is a nasty piece of work who's comments shade into abuse and ridicule in a way that even incredibly passionate partisans like JK Rowling never do. What angered me about his tweet was the bit that said "if a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act". I think women have every right to protect single sex space but to assume that any trans woman who wants to use a bathroom is motivated by violence is insane. Having said all that, in a sane world he'd just be banned from X rather than arrested.
    I don’t think that he is saying they are motivated by violence.

    The act of being in the room is a “violent abusive act”. It’s a violation of the women’s privacy so abusive, and he’s using violent in its secondary meaning of “strong or powerful”
  • Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
    That really is an excellent summary of our position and the challenges we face. Note debt interest's significant contribution to the increasing deficit.
    Maybe Allister Heath is right - for once - and we will get a new election. If my friend is right and cutting spending is the only way, but Labour MPs refuse to do it, then either the government prints money and inflation explodes, then we go bust anyway (in the end), or we have an election to elect MPs who WILL cut spending
    Turkeys do not vote for Christmas. There will be an election when the Labour Party see fit and not before.

    When people say "cut spending" it always means "on other people". As service delivery is already at crisis point we can't actually cut spending at the front line - it will cost more in emergency spending to manage the crises created.

    We need to change what we spend the money on.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,287
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    In more concrete matters relating to Starmer's future we have just had our 11th consecutive month with manufacturing PMIs below 50, that is indicating a future contraction and the latest figure is one of the worst: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-factories-stumble-as-new-orders-fall-back-pmi-shows/ar-AA1LD3ZA?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=68b69efe1dfd4e56a1a8495a30003596&ei=27

    I may have mentioned our trade deficit from time to time in passing. This really isn't helping. Its time we had a government more focused on the day job.

    The economy is only staying afloat because of services . The latest update to that is due out shortly .
    Yes and to be fair that has largely been the case for 30 years or more. But what we are not seeing is any sign of investment in new production in the UK, any uplift in training, any growth in productivity, any facilitation of growth by removing planning hurdles or otherwise, any attempt to encourage entrepreneurial activity in the UK, it makes you despair. What we got instead was the increase in Employers NI and an above inflation increase in the minimum wage with inevitable consequences for the level of employment.

    It just won't do. Our forthcoming budget needs to focus on growth (as Reeves herself recognised before the election). That means finding ways to boost investment through more generous allowances, encouraging training, not hammering Entrepreneurial Relief or Capital Gains or share based ISAs, looking at why London is struggling to compete in the IPO market, etc etc. I fear we are going to see the reverse as our Chancellor scrabbles around for a few billion more taxes to make her nonsensical targets and kick the can down the road for a few more months.
    My new brainiac IQ 190 squillionaire friend, who was freaking out about the gilts market months ago (presciently) is now freaking out about gilts EVEN MORE

    He says the government is “driving straight into a brick wall”. He thinks the present gilts “crisis” is maybe the markets reacting to Starmer’s “phase 2” speech which didn’t acknowledge the fiscal emergency at all

    He says, as tax rises won’t work, borrowing can’t be done, and the government refuses to cut, we “may become Turkey or Argentina for a bit”

    🫣

    I am no brainiac, nor do I have an IQ of 190, nor, sadly, am I a squillionaire but this is kind of obvious. We are heading towards a fiscal crisis. It is not just that we need to borrow new money at penalty rates, we also have to roll over ever more debt taken out when interest rates were very, very low. 10 year gilts maturing just now were probably borrowed at less than 1%. To replace those borrowed funds we will be borrowing the same money at more than 5%. The cost of our debt is going to be rising for a long time, even if we manage to get current rates down. Every other category of spending is going to be squeezed by this.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,945

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    As the tweets were from April, why has it taken so long?
    He’s been working in the US.

    There’s suggestions that the Tweets in question were actually sent while he was in the US, in which case the question is what does the conduct of an Irishman in the US have anything to do with the British police in the first place, and can Americans visiting London expect the same treatment?
    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1962872272915431425
    So, several months old, made furth of our jurisdiction and @Foxy thinks Polanski saying he should be arrested is a clever response? Am I keeping up?
    One hopes he was being sarcastic
    No, I was not.

    Linehan was arrested for inciting violence as a hate crime. If we are to have such laws on the books then we should enforce them.

    I don't think the law is fit in it's current form and should be revised. Incitement to violence should only be considered criminal if there is a realistic expectation of violence as a result.
    As I understand it Linehan is a foreign national who was tweeting whilst outside the UK. I do not understand how the Public Order Act of 1986 is applicable to a non-British person using a non-British service whilst not in Britain. Regardless of what they said.
    Under British law it is illegal to treat Linehan as a foreigner. So, in that sense he is as British as you or I.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,122
    edited September 3
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
    That really is an excellent summary of our position and the challenges we face. Note debt interest's significant contribution to the increasing deficit.
    Maybe Allister Heath is right - for once - and we will get a new election. If my friend is right and cutting spending is the only way, but Labour MPs refuse to do it, then either the government prints money and inflation explodes, then we go bust anyway (in the end), or we have an election to elect MPs who WILL cut spending
    There’s zero chance of an early election . Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,790

    Stereodog said:

    Dopermean said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    New Green Party leader seems like a laugh

    “These are totally unacceptable tweets... I think it was proportionate to arrest him"

    Zack Polanski, Green Party Leader, on the arrest of comedy writer Graham Linehan at Heathrow airport on Monday.

    #Newsnight


    https://x.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1963021805196562467?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's a very articulate and intelligent response.

    Starmer should be afraid, very afraid...
    I’m sure he’s shitting himself.

    It may be an articulate response but it is far from intelligent.

    Still, I guess it’s Glinner so nicking him is okay because he’s a bit of a berk.
    I thought yesterday's reposted tweet summed it up best.

    Musing on the issue...

    If you're trans then trans rights affect your entire life
    If you're female then trans rights may impinge on your rights
    But if you're male? Why has Linehan become so obsessed with this?

    And as already posted, the Police just seem to have wasted their time because it's an "easy win".
    I think that Linehan is a nasty piece of work who's comments shade into abuse and ridicule in a way that even incredibly passionate partisans like JK Rowling never do. What angered me about his tweet was the bit that said "if a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act". I think women have every right to protect single sex space but to assume that any trans woman who wants to use a bathroom is motivated by violence is insane. Having said all that, in a sane world he'd just be banned from X rather than arrested.
    I don’t think that he is saying they are motivated by violence.

    The act of being in the room is a “violent abusive act”. It’s a violation of the women’s privacy so abusive, and he’s using violent in its secondary meaning of “strong or powerful”
    He’s using the language of his activist opponents back at them. Remember “silence is violence” from the BLM protests a few years ago?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,748
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rather like the joke about the lightbulb, the Labour leadership needs to want to change.

    As we saw with Corbyn, the way the Labour Party is set up makes it pretty much impossible to depose a leader who doesn’t want to move on.

    Starmer seems happy enough in the job, he does whatever the lawyers and courts tell him to do, and doesn’t care much for public opinion. Perhaps it will take a major financial crisis to wake him up?

    Does 'major financial crisis' include the one we are in, where the only day to day solution is to place our grandchildren into bankruptcy instead of sorting stuff out ourselves and Labour MPs won't vote for tiny cuts?

    6 minute excellent explainer from Ed Conway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQiIDuHpTk
    That really is an excellent summary of our position and the challenges we face. Note debt interest's significant contribution to the increasing deficit.
    Maybe Allister Heath is right - for once - and we will get a new election. If my friend is right and cutting spending is the only way, but Labour MPs refuse to do it, then either the government prints money and inflation explodes, then we go bust anyway (in the end), or we have an election to elect MPs who WILL cut spending
    It's not really Labour refusing to do it. It's the electorate. That's why spending increased so rapidly even under the Conservatives, and would do so under Reform's plans too. The former's voters are old and sick; the latter's are much more reliant on state support than any other.

    There is no low spending option on offer. If there was, it would involve cutting or freezing NHS spending - no plan is credible without doing that given the enormous size and growth of the health budget. It would require high earners to tolerate that, and they overwhelmingly vote Labour.

    Sorry.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,324
    Foxy said:

    I see the Starmer administration and consider a government utterly mired in the mundane. I have no doubt that ministers are in their departments beavering away being busy on policy initiatives, feeling like they are making a difference. The problem is that largely they are not - busy fools.

    If Starmer is to break this current political zeitgeist then he needs to change plan and do so significantly. @Leon suggests he call an EU referendum - that would do it! Or something similarly bold. I'd even welcome him coming out and calling out the racist women-beating child-molesting scum at the heart of the protect our women / raise the colours movement.

    He won't do anything. Because he's frit.

    Zack Polanski probably will though.

    His landslide victory in the leadership contest in a party that gets 8-10% of the vote is the political news of the week.

    Gay, Vegan and Jewish it's enough to have the PB blimps clutching their smelling salts...

    And his deputy is Muslim.
    https://x.com/simonmontefiore/status/1963119820653621688?s=48
This discussion has been closed.