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Is Diane Abbott right? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,639
edited August 22 in General
Is Diane Abbott right? – politicalbetting.com

A third (33%) of 16-34s would consider backing a new left-wing party, dropping to just 9% among those aged 55+.And that’s not all… pic.twitter.com/Np52icKvvU

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  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,963
    FPTP s struggling in a mutiparty system

    Breakthrough is now easier
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,638
    Second!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,860
    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,119
    No.

    [Haven't read the header or comments yet]
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,563

    No.

    [Haven't read the header or comments yet]

    She's defending her use of private schools.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,658
    @washingtonpost.com‬

    Breaking news: A federal judge is giving Florida 60 days to clear out the immigrant detention facility called Alligator Alcatraz. The ruling forbids state officials from moving any other migrants there.

    https://wapo.st/4mrLVJE
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,963
    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    People didnt vote for Labour at all, they voted against the Conservatives,

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,487
    edited August 22
    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.


    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    In which case, polling like this will become depressingly relevant;

    Some people on the left have argued politics is destined to become 'blame the migrants vs blame the rich'.

    Fair or not, this binary turns out to be a surprisingly useful question for dividing the country right down the middle!

    Look at the generational splits, madness.




    https://bsky.app/profile/steveakehurst.bsky.social/post/3lwwgjpn54c2t

    Still, easier to do that than take responsibility ourselves.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,049

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.


    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    In which case, polling like this will become depressingly relevant;

    Some people on the left have argued politics is destined to become 'blame the migrants vs blame the rich'.

    Fair or not, this binary turns out to be a surprisingly useful question for dividing the country right down the middle!

    Look at the generational splits, madness.




    https://bsky.app/profile/steveakehurst.bsky.social/post/3lwwgjpn54c2t

    Still, easier to do that than take responsibility ourselves.
    Blaming people in this way is a stupid way to do politics.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,967

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.


    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    In which case, polling like this will become depressingly relevant;

    Some people on the left have argued politics is destined to become 'blame the migrants vs blame the rich'.

    Fair or not, this binary turns out to be a surprisingly useful question for dividing the country right down the middle!

    Look at the generational splits, madness.




    https://bsky.app/profile/steveakehurst.bsky.social/post/3lwwgjpn54c2t

    Still, easier to do that than take responsibility ourselves.
    The elegant solution is to blame rich migrants.

    It's all the fault of Elon Musk.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,757
    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,801
    The 38% who would consider voting for Reform is interesting. Given that there will also be some neutral responses, it suggests that the proportion of the population who regard Reform as anathema is somewhat lower than many would hope.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,563

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.


    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    In which case, polling like this will become depressingly relevant;

    Some people on the left have argued politics is destined to become 'blame the migrants vs blame the rich'.

    Fair or not, this binary turns out to be a surprisingly useful question for dividing the country right down the middle!

    Look at the generational splits, madness.




    https://bsky.app/profile/steveakehurst.bsky.social/post/3lwwgjpn54c2t

    Still, easier to do that than take responsibility ourselves.
    Bt it's not quite as clear cut as that. I think many people blame the rich and business elite for that immigration, because it's cheaper than investing in technology or in training up British people to do highly-skilled jobs.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,487

    Good morning, everyone.

    Andy_JS said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.


    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    In which case, polling like this will become depressingly relevant;

    Some people on the left have argued politics is destined to become 'blame the migrants vs blame the rich'.

    Fair or not, this binary turns out to be a surprisingly useful question for dividing the country right down the middle!

    Look at the generational splits, madness.




    https://bsky.app/profile/steveakehurst.bsky.social/post/3lwwgjpn54c2t

    Still, easier to do that than take responsibility ourselves.
    Blaming people in this way is a stupid way to do politics.
    I quite agree. It's simplistic, and a vindictive lens through which to view the world.

    But it also has a great redeeming feature. When you blame The Other you exculpate yourself of any responsibility for the ills of the world while simultaneously attributing them to someone else. And then you can focus pointlessly attacking The Other and feeling morally superior about doing it, while the actual problems (and any solutions) remain unattended.
    Agree. It's lousy government.

    But (unfortunately) it's incredibly effective electoral politics.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,369

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,757
    As for the topic, Diane would be better joining JezWeCan than protesting any further inside a Labour party which is removing her.

    CorbynSultana politics isn't mine. But there is clearly a chunk of the electorate holding similar views and why shouldn't they have a party to represent them?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,049
    edited August 22

    The 38% who would consider voting for Reform is interesting. Given that there will also be some neutral responses, it suggests that the proportion of the population who regard Reform as anathema is somewhat lower than many would hope.

    I keep posting this.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Nigel_Farage

    Farage

    popularity 37%
    disliked 40%
    neutral 19%
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,757

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,997

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    Curious anomaly that if list MSPs resign or pass away, the next elected but not placed party candidate on the slate, or the next one full stop if no party candidates left, moves up. That makes sense as they are on the list by virtue of their party.

    And then we get people resigning the party and keeping their MSP list places. OTOH those who are *not* elected are not elected cos the voters don't like their faces enough. So perhaps there is some sense in it.

    (ISTR it's happened a few times already with various parties or none at all benefiting.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,997
    edited August 22

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,152
    Holidays in August, strikes in September.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,522
    edited August 22

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    Sad news.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,152
    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    Bland Toryism is all the bond markets will permit.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,779
    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,437
    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    On the other hand, Leon didn't vote for them to bring back Corbyn...

    In any event, tacking left will do nothing to sort the economy (nor will holding a leadership election), and they're arguably as likely to lose votes in the centre as gain them on the left.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,802
    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,201

    Holidays in August, strikes in September.
    almost as if they are connected

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,997

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Haven't been following his career in detail, but this debate is an example of him in action on relevant matters:

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2023-10-04.17.0&s=Scottish+Welfare+find
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,437

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.

    And the irony is that those two poles are the least likely to deliver.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,295

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.


    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    In which case, polling like this will become depressingly relevant;

    Some people on the left have argued politics is destined to become 'blame the migrants vs blame the rich'.

    Fair or not, this binary turns out to be a surprisingly useful question for dividing the country right down the middle!

    Look at the generational splits, madness.




    https://bsky.app/profile/steveakehurst.bsky.social/post/3lwwgjpn54c2t

    Still, easier to do that than take responsibility ourselves.
    A 'forced choice between two populisms' is a reality distorting concept. While the great majority of people are confused and not very engaged with politics, the great majority also don't take populist positions. Even those who plan to vote Reform don't, in the main, think that the populism of Reform can actually resolve intractable issues, they just want to drain the swamp. (How's Trump's efforts in that ditrection getting on by the way?)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,437
    edited August 22
    If they're going to end up doing this anyway, would it make any sort of sense to get it out of the way now .. ?

    Company leaders sometimes call in management consultants to give them internal leverage to do things they knew they needed to do already.

    On the same basis maybe the UK govt should call in the IMF, to help it make the spending cuts and tax rises it already knows it needs to do?

    https://x.com/s8mb/status/1958533920586174537
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,779
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.

    And the irony is that those two poles are the least likely to deliver.
    Since so far this century we’ve been governed by what lies between these poles with significant delivery problems, does this mean we’re f*cked?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,152
    geoffw said:

    Holidays in August, strikes in September.
    almost as if they are connected

    Riots in July, holidays in August, strikes in September.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,295

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


    I think that can be refined. There is an appetite for political leadership, left, right or centre, to give a narrative account of what the solutions are, where we are now, and how we are going to get there. FWIW I think Labour's last chance to do that comes in the autumn with the budget, which needs to be a budget for the ages which will either make or break Reeves's reputation. A budget gigantic in honesty and fiscal probity, painful and with a coherent well communicated plan, would be a nice change, and give Labour a chance in the next election and give a challenge to Reform.

    By next year anorak attention starts shifting to the next election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,437
    Has he been buying stock in Four Seasons Landscaping ahead of the federal contract ?

    Trump: One of the things we are going to be redoing as your parks. I know more about grass than any human being anywhere in the world. We are going to be regrassing your parks, new sprinklers systems. It will look like Trump national golf club.

    Grass has a life. You know that ? ..

    https://x.com/Acyn/status/1958647231701283208
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,756

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


    I've been a Labour member since I was 21, and I'm currently Chair (and acting Sec) of my CLP. I was an MP for 13 years. I'm not particularly left-wing, but I'm considering joining the new party, when its profile becomes clearer, since I disagree with the centrist and anti-left policies being pursued by Labour - in general, the party seems to me to have become predominantly negative, and if the new party offers a positive strategy I'll seriously consider it. I'm not especially motivated by polling, which can change rapidly, but would be put off if the new party adopted a predominantly negative approach.

    My own position doesn't matter much as I'm 75, but it's fairly widely shared among members. We didn't join in order NOT to be something else.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,402
    Thanks for the heads up. Will be there next week but will be out again before the strikes. Visiting the WW1 cemeteries - you know those folk that literally took a bullet for this country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,967
    Nigelb said:

    Has he been buying stock in Four Seasons Landscaping ahead of the federal contract ?

    Trump: One of the things we are going to be redoing as your parks. I know more about grass than any human being anywhere in the world. We are going to be regrassing your parks, new sprinklers systems. It will look like Trump national golf club.

    Grass has a life. You know that ? ..

    https://x.com/Acyn/status/1958647231701283208

    Well, if he's been experimenting with grass that would explain quite a lot.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,802
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


    I think that can be refined. There is an appetite for political leadership, left, right or centre, to give a narrative account of what the solutions are, where we are now, and how we are going to get there. FWIW I think Labour's last chance to do that comes in the autumn with the budget, which needs to be a budget for the ages which will either make or break Reeves's reputation. A budget gigantic in honesty and fiscal probity, painful and with a coherent well communicated plan, would be a nice change, and give Labour a chance in the next election and give a challenge to Reform.

    By next year anorak attention starts shifting to the next election.
    Yes, political leadership is perhaps a better way of thinking about it.

    If Labour do produce the budget they should have done last year, then they might still be able to right themselves, but I am doubtful they can do it. Reeves is not savvy enough of a political operator or sure-footed enough as a communicator. Starmer is the same, and possesses a feebleness in terms of messaging and setting the political direction.

    Nothing suggests to me we are heading for a restructuring, radical budget. It looks like they’ll instead be leaving the main fiscal levers untouched and the broad fiscal network unreformed, just with tweaks to rates etc here and there. They can’t be too radical, because to properly restructure they need to introduce cuts alongside tax changes, and their backbenchers won’t let them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,779
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Haven't been following his career in detail, but this debate is an example of him in action on relevant matters:

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2023-10-04.17.0&s=Scottish+Welfare+find
    Thanks (I think), a lot to get through before I found Mr Balfour!

    Would a fair précis of the debate be that despite child poverty being less in Scotland than in the rUK, the SNP are to be excoriated for not eradicating it entirely?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,049
    edited August 22
    If you're a Labour supporter, I believe you have a duty to support Starmer and Reeves. They won the election with a majority of 170+.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,295

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    Bland Toryism is all the bond markets will permit.
    Not quite true. The bond markets value fiscal and economic reality, and the voters want centrist social democracy of the sort they have voted for consistently since 1945. There is a range of ways in which this can be delivered and more or less competence in delivery. Such voters who wil vote Reform, we will discover, want, in addition to closed borders and fewer refugees, the post 1945 welfare state delivered free and effectively and without the national bankruptcy of a sovereign debt meltdown. Some will work out that that high spend + fiscal probity = high tax for oneself; others will find out later.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,687
    Diane Abbott is right, under FPTP Corbyn's party won't break through unless it overtakes Labour on the left as Reform have overtaken the Tories on the right.

    Otherwise as Ipsos showed the main impact of Your Party will be to take Green Party votes unless they can agree a pact so only one stands per constituency
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,967
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    Bland Toryism is all the bond markets will permit.
    Not quite true. The bond markets value fiscal and economic reality, and the voters want centrist social democracy of the sort they have voted for consistently since 1945. There is a range of ways in which this can be delivered and more or less competence in delivery. Such voters who wil vote Reform, we will discover, want, in addition to closed borders and fewer refugees, the post 1945 welfare state delivered free and effectively and without the national bankruptcy of a sovereign debt meltdown. Some will work out that that high spend + fiscal probity = high tax for oneself; others will find out later.
    Truss was an interesting variation on an old rule:

    The market stayed rational longer than she could remain politically solvent.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,687

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


    I've been a Labour member since I was 21, and I'm currently Chair (and acting Sec) of my CLP. I was an MP for 13 years. I'm not particularly left-wing, but I'm considering joining the new party, when its profile becomes clearer, since I disagree with the centrist and anti-left policies being pursued by Labour - in general, the party seems to me to have become predominantly negative, and if the new party offers a positive strategy I'll seriously consider it. I'm not especially motivated by polling, which can change rapidly, but would be put off if the new party adopted a predominantly negative approach.

    My own position doesn't matter much as I'm 75, but it's fairly widely shared among members. We didn't join in order NOT to be something else.
    Would be a blow to Starmer if a respected ex Labour MP like you went Nick
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,522

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Seriously, you are going to have a dig at a politician from an Opposition party when far too many SNP politicians have been turning a blind eye to the many scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood over the last eighteen years?! Maybe if far more of them had not only been paying attention but had also grown a backbone then the party might not be in the mess it is today!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,687
    Nigelb said:

    If they're going to end up doing this anyway, would it make any sort of sense to get it out of the way now .. ?

    Company leaders sometimes call in management consultants to give them internal leverage to do things they knew they needed to do already.

    On the same basis maybe the UK govt should call in the IMF, to help it make the spending cuts and tax rises it already knows it needs to do?

    https://x.com/s8mb/status/1958533920586174537

    Well if they did that Corbyn really would be a beneficiary, especially if Starmer followed IMF spending cuts his party could be a UK Syriza which gained from the backlash against austerity and tax rises imposed on Greece
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,422

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


    The media owners are driving right wing populism as a means to their ends, which seem to include a larger dose of overt white nationalism and prejudice than in the recent past. I can't see any media support for even a mild left wing version of that, that is all grass roots.
    I'd expect a large minority, may be even a majority, would grow to support a govt that was more competent in providing health, policing, transport, energy and justice services but it takes time to get the delivery of that flowing.
    Couldn't give a toss about Corbyn and Sultana, but McDonnell and some others on the left could contribute and would be absolutely delighted if Glasman and his blue "Labour" Trumpism was permanently excluded.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,859
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    Bland Toryism is all the bond markets will permit.
    Not quite true. The bond markets value fiscal and economic reality, and the voters want centrist social democracy of the sort they have voted for consistently since 1945. There is a range of ways in which this can be delivered and more or less competence in delivery. Such voters who wil vote Reform, we will discover, want, in addition to closed borders and fewer refugees, the post 1945 welfare state delivered free and effectively and without the national bankruptcy of a sovereign debt meltdown. Some will work out that that high spend + fiscal probity = high tax for oneself; others will find out later.
    The bond markets are concerned with both credit risk and inflation (and base rate) expectations. I think a lot of commentators focus entirely on the former and forget the latter.

    Case in point, yesterday government borrowing came in below expectations but the gilt yield didn’t fall, in fact it slightly rose over the day. Case in point 2, several European countries have higher debt:gdp ratios than us, lower GDP growth, and also higher current deficits, as of course does the US, but their bond yields are lower.

    If you are investing in a fixed term bond at a fixed rate and you expect inflation and depreciation of the currency, you’ll demand a higher yield even if there is zero default risk.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,295

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


    I think that can be refined. There is an appetite for political leadership, left, right or centre, to give a narrative account of what the solutions are, where we are now, and how we are going to get there. FWIW I think Labour's last chance to do that comes in the autumn with the budget, which needs to be a budget for the ages which will either make or break Reeves's reputation. A budget gigantic in honesty and fiscal probity, painful and with a coherent well communicated plan, would be a nice change, and give Labour a chance in the next election and give a challenge to Reform.

    By next year anorak attention starts shifting to the next election.
    Yes, political leadership is perhaps a better way of thinking about it.

    If Labour do produce the budget they should have done last year, then they might still be able to right themselves, but I am doubtful they can do it. Reeves is not savvy enough of a political operator or sure-footed enough as a communicator. Starmer is the same, and possesses a feebleness in terms of messaging and setting the political direction.

    Nothing suggests to me we are heading for a restructuring, radical budget. It looks like they’ll instead be leaving the main fiscal levers untouched and the broad fiscal network unreformed, just with tweaks to rates etc here and there. They can’t be too radical, because to properly restructure they need to introduce cuts alongside tax changes, and their backbenchers won’t let them.
    I fear you are right, but as Labour are the only outfit at the moment capable of winning 325 seats and running the country at all, I shall remain hopeful until the autumn as necessity is the mother of invention.

    If nothing changes by the new year, very focussed attention needs to be given to Reform's actual, as opposed to unicorn, plan for governing. Questions include the overall strategy for spend, tax, debt and deficit, and the reach of state activity. Total managed Expenditure must be X% of GDP, what number is X?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,779
    edited August 22
    Andy_JS said:

    If you're a Labour supporter, I believe you have a duty to support Starmer and Reeves. They won the election with a majority of 170+.

    Labour isn’t a football team, I imagine people largely support a party that enacts policies they agree with (or stop voting for them when they fail to do so). As we see the days of voting for a donkey with an x coloured rosette are fading fast.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,802
    edited August 22
    I see no reason why the bond markets won’t accept more radical changes. The key thing is that there is at least some confidence that the changes will work in the medium to long term.

    Truss’ problem was that she tried to do too much at the wrong stage of the political cycle and that there did not appear to have been any long term planning or forecasting to back up the fiscal shift - it was just cut the taxes and hope. Again I come back to the political cycle here, because it’s important - Truss took office post Covid, in the throes of the Ukrainian inflationary spike and energy crisis, with no mandate from the wider electorate and with only 2 years to go until a GE. Whatever merit or not you put on her tax policies, it was simply an unrealistic political backdrop to be introducing them in.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,801
    HYUFD said:

    Diane Abbott is right, under FPTP Corbyn's party won't break through unless it overtakes Labour on the left as Reform have overtaken the Tories on the right.

    Otherwise as Ipsos showed the main impact of Your Party will be to take Green Party votes unless they can agree a pact so only one stands per constituency

    Perhaps "Your Party" is actually a deep cover assignment from Agent Corbyn to save the Labour party from being eclipsed on the Left by the Green party?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,687
    Andy_JS said:

    The 38% who would consider voting for Reform is interesting. Given that there will also be some neutral responses, it suggests that the proportion of the population who regard Reform as anathema is somewhat lower than many would hope.

    I keep posting this.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Nigel_Farage

    Farage

    popularity 37%
    disliked 40%
    neutral 19%
    Fine provided the 40% don't tactically vote against Farage
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,779
    fitalass said:

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Seriously, you are going to have a dig at a politician from an Opposition party when far too many SNP politicians have been turning a blind eye to the many scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood over the last eighteen years?! Maybe if far more of them had not only been paying attention but had also grown a backbone then the party might not be in the mess it is today!
    Always good to get advice from a supporter of a party that hasn’t managed to win majority support in Scotland for 60+ years, and is now on the verge of extinction.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,860
    Andy_JS said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.


    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    In which case, polling like this will become depressingly relevant;

    Some people on the left have argued politics is destined to become 'blame the migrants vs blame the rich'.

    Fair or not, this binary turns out to be a surprisingly useful question for dividing the country right down the middle!

    Look at the generational splits, madness.




    https://bsky.app/profile/steveakehurst.bsky.social/post/3lwwgjpn54c2t

    Still, easier to do that than take responsibility ourselves.
    Blaming people in this way is a stupid way to do politics.
    Seems to me that, very often, it isn't at root a matter of 'blaming' the groups themselves. It's much more a matter of anger that politicians and authorities favour those groups over & above people who feel they've been unfairly disadvantaged thereby.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,638

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


    I've been a Labour member since I was 21, and I'm currently Chair (and acting Sec) of my CLP. I was an MP for 13 years. I'm not particularly left-wing, but I'm considering joining the new party, when its profile becomes clearer, since I disagree with the centrist and anti-left policies being pursued by Labour - in general, the party seems to me to have become predominantly negative, and if the new party offers a positive strategy I'll seriously consider it. I'm not especially motivated by polling, which can change rapidly, but would be put off if the new party adopted a predominantly negative approach.

    My own position doesn't matter much as I'm 75, but it's fairly widely shared among members. We didn't join in order NOT to be something else.
    Insofar as Labour was elected NOT to be like that Sunak who went before, they're not even managing that, currently.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,690

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There’s a lot of this I do grudgingly agree with here.

    I in fact did vote Labour because I expected, not necessarily bland politics but certainly a government with a general sense of renewal and restructuring that would likely do quite a few important things “under the bonnet” to help fix some of the more egregious problems. I am not a left wing voter, and I wouldn’t vote for a Corbyn led party or a Labour Party that moved measurably further to the left. But, now that it feels that Labour have failed to rise to the challenge on most measures and now seem to offer bland managed decline, I just don’t think the public are in the mood for a centrist party claiming it has the solutions at the moment. It wants the solutions to be driven by those with more solidly left/right views.


    I've been a Labour member since I was 21, and I'm currently Chair (and acting Sec) of my CLP. I was an MP for 13 years. I'm not particularly left-wing, but I'm considering joining the new party, when its profile becomes clearer, since I disagree with the centrist and anti-left policies being pursued by Labour - in general, the party seems to me to have become predominantly negative, and if the new party offers a positive strategy I'll seriously consider it. I'm not especially motivated by polling, which can change rapidly, but would be put off if the new party adopted a predominantly negative approach.

    My own position doesn't matter much as I'm 75, but it's fairly widely shared among members. We didn't join in order NOT to be something else.
    While economic policy is in large part constrained by the bond markets, there is no excuse for Labour's timidity and unwillingness to speak out on non-financial issues. There's plenty of scope to be economically rational and socially radical.

    Starmer's line of "Farage is right, don't vote for him" is the shortest route to political oblivion conceivable. He is the Ramsey MacDonald of the 21st Century.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,817
    Whether Labour like it or not they have to sort out the boats and the issue isn’t just annoying the right .

    The commentary sometimes seem to assume that all those on the left have no problem with this and want an open door policy . This couldn’t be further from the truth .

    I tend to think in general the majority of the British public are fair and would accept genuine asylum seekers especially families , what they don’t want is a free for all .

    Life chances are often a geographical lottery of birth , of course people want a better life but unless the Labour government get to grips with the boats it could unleash even darker forces .

  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,908
    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There's finally something in this country to rail against -the disgusting rise in the far right -yet there's no party doing it.

    I think you're right. It can only be Labour with a non Tory leader but I wouldn't get excited about Corbyn. He's just a wrecker.

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,522
    edited August 22

    fitalass said:

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Seriously, you are going to have a dig at a politician from an Opposition party when far too many SNP politicians have been turning a blind eye to the many scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood over the last eighteen years?! Maybe if far more of them had not only been paying attention but had also grown a backbone then the party might not be in the mess it is today!
    Always good to get advice from a supporter of a party that hasn’t managed to win majority support in Scotland for 60+ years, and is now on the verge of extinction.
    Always good to see a fan of the SNP dish it out to others while never reporting or reflecting on the growing intray of huge scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood. I see that this week was another good one to bury yet more bad news about the SNP's inability to run a whelk store competently far less an administration at Holyrood while it is in recess and Nicola Sturgeon is flogging her memoirs and trying to settle old grievances with some of the individuals that did dare to stand up and call her out while she was FM.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,801

    I see no reason why the bond markets won’t accept more radical changes. The key thing is that there is at least some confidence that the changes will work in the medium to long term.

    Truss’ problem was that she tried to do too much at the wrong stage of the political cycle and that there did not appear to have been any long term planning or forecasting to back up the fiscal shift - it was just cut the taxes and hope. Again I come back to the political cycle here, because it’s important - Truss took office post Covid, in the throes of the Ukrainian inflationary spike and energy crisis, with no mandate from the wider electorate and with only 2 years to go until a GE. Whatever merit or not you put on her tax policies, it was simply an unrealistic political backdrop to be introducing them in.

    She'd said a bunch of mad things during her leadership campaign - such as paying for tax cuts by renegotiating bonds to pay a lower rate of interest - and the budget delivered by Kwarteng gave every impression that she actually believed that nonsense - what resulted was a fundamental loss of confidence.

    The bond market is made up of humans, and so while there are technical aspects fundamentally it's a matter of human emotion, which means it's also something affected by the quality of leadership.

    Starmer/Reeves simply don't inspire confidence.

    I think that Britain needs a few radical changes, and I'd probably be quite excited if some of these were introduced at the next budget. But are Starmer/Reeves capable of selling and implementing radical change?

    I have my doubts, and I could understand if the bond market did too.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,295

    I see no reason why the bond markets won’t accept more radical changes. The key thing is that there is at least some confidence that the changes will work in the medium to long term.

    Truss’ problem was that she tried to do too much at the wrong stage of the political cycle and that there did not appear to have been any long term planning or forecasting to back up the fiscal shift - it was just cut the taxes and hope. Again I come back to the political cycle here, because it’s important - Truss took office post Covid, in the throes of the Ukrainian inflationary spike and energy crisis, with no mandate from the wider electorate and with only 2 years to go until a GE. Whatever merit or not you put on her tax policies, it was simply an unrealistic political backdrop to be introducing them in.

    This is true. But two more things are true too. Bond markets are not political science wonks and they are only narrowly moral. They don't care if the UK has a social democracy structure, as it consistently has had, with varying degrees of competence, since 1945 or whether the UK has a more USA tradition, or indeed a more socialist one; but it cares about risk, inflation and default, and at the outer fringes of possibility cares about whether the UK is conquered by someone else who will default instead.

    So it will accept change and radical change, but only on the usual conditions and at the price set by markets not by the change makers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,690
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There's finally something in this country to rail against -the disgusting rise in the far right -yet there's no party doing it.

    I think you're right. It can only be Labour with a non Tory leader but I wouldn't get excited about Corbyn. He's just a wrecker.

    I don't think Corbyn or Sultana should be leader, but the party should have room for them (and Abbott) in a broader tent. Even Tony Blair recognised that.

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,022

    HYUFD said:

    Diane Abbott is right, under FPTP Corbyn's party won't break through unless it overtakes Labour on the left as Reform have overtaken the Tories on the right.

    Otherwise as Ipsos showed the main impact of Your Party will be to take Green Party votes unless they can agree a pact so only one stands per constituency

    Perhaps "Your Party" is actually a deep cover assignment from Agent Corbyn to save the Labour party from being eclipsed on the Left by the Green party?
    I would have thought the Greens are a bit like the Liberals used to be, about 10% of people support them spread out across the country, with a few pockets of support where they elect MPs. I can't necessarily see Your Party doing well in rural East Anglia for example, but maybe it will do in urban Doncaster. So an electoral pact could work quite well
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,687

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    Yet since the general election the Scottish Tories have been losing voters to the even more reactionary Reform not Labour and the LDs
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,388
    geoffw said:

    Holidays in August, strikes in September.
    almost as if they are connected

    It gives French parents some time to themselves after the kids have gone back to school.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,506
    AnneJGP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.


    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    In which case, polling like this will become depressingly relevant;

    Some people on the left have argued politics is destined to become 'blame the migrants vs blame the rich'.

    Fair or not, this binary turns out to be a surprisingly useful question for dividing the country right down the middle!

    Look at the generational splits, madness.




    https://bsky.app/profile/steveakehurst.bsky.social/post/3lwwgjpn54c2t

    Still, easier to do that than take responsibility ourselves.
    Blaming people in this way is a stupid way to do politics.
    Seems to me that, very often, it isn't at root a matter of 'blaming' the groups themselves. It's much more a matter of anger that politicians and authorities favour those groups over & above people who feel they've been unfairly disadvantaged thereby.
    It's about building a model of the world. In which you are The Down Trodden Hero. The Trans Gay Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs are responsible for everything bad.

    It's better than confessing your sins. You do that, you still can sin. You build a Blame God - that proves you are perfect. You just have to keep on Hating the Blame God.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,690

    Andy_JS said:

    If you're a Labour supporter, I believe you have a duty to support Starmer and Reeves. They won the election with a majority of 170+.

    Labour isn’t a football team, I imagine people largely support a party that enacts policies they agree with (or stop voting for them when they fail to do so). As we see the days of voting for a donkey with an x coloured rosette are fading fast.
    As a football season ticket holder I can assure you that fans are not uncritical of their team. Indeed at Leicester the most common chants are "Rudkin* must go" and "Sack the Board". Booing the team off is not unusual either. Labour supporters (and Tories too) often feel the same.

    *Rudkin is our Director of Football and blamed for overpaid flops on far too high wages.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,967
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There's finally something in this country to rail against -the disgusting rise in the far right -yet there's no party doing it.

    I think you're right. It can only be Labour with a non Tory leader but I wouldn't get excited about Corbyn. He's just a wrecker.

    I don't think Corbyn or Sultana should be leader, but the party should have room for them (and Abbott) in a broader tent. Even Tony Blair recognised that.

    Tony Blair thought of the left as useful idiots who if he threw a bone to them every now and again would keep his working class voters loyal while he did stuff they didn't approve of.

    He also thought this wasn't a problem as they would never hold actual power within the party and so couldn't possibly recontaminate it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,658
    Nigelb said:

    Has he been buying stock in Four Seasons Landscaping ahead of the federal contract ?

    Trump: One of the things we are going to be redoing as your parks. I know more about grass than any human being anywhere in the world. We are going to be regrassing your parks

    He just paved over the Rose Garden
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,603
    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    Yet since the general election the Scottish Tories have been losing voters to the even more reactionary Reform not Labour and the LDs
    In which case, the Scottish Tories have two choices:

    *) To chase Reform down into the reactionary pit.
    *) To choose a more practical position to the problems that face the country.

    The problems with the former are that Reform are kings of that particular hill, and trying to beat them will only cause both of them to descend further into the pit as they become more extremist. That will not be good for the country.

    The problems with the latter is that it is hard, and you need to sell it to a public that is intrigued by Reform's stupid, but easy, 'answers' to the problems that face them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,690
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There's finally something in this country to rail against -the disgusting rise in the far right -yet there's no party doing it.

    I think you're right. It can only be Labour with a non Tory leader but I wouldn't get excited about Corbyn. He's just a wrecker.

    I don't think Corbyn or Sultana should be leader, but the party should have room for them (and Abbott) in a broader tent. Even Tony Blair recognised that.

    Tony Blair thought of the left as useful idiots who if he threw a bone to them every now and again would keep his working class voters loyal while he did stuff they didn't approve of.

    He also thought this wasn't a problem as they would never hold actual power within the party and so couldn't possibly recontaminate it.
    That's as maybe, but he didn't chuck Corbyn out of the party. He even let Livingstone back into the party despite vocal opposition to the Iraq war and running as an independent against the official Labour candidate.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,779
    edited August 22
    fitalass said:

    fitalass said:

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Seriously, you are going to have a dig at a politician from an Opposition party when far too many SNP politicians have been turning a blind eye to the many scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood over the last eighteen years?! Maybe if far more of them had not only been paying attention but had also grown a backbone then the party might not be in the mess it is today!
    Always good to get advice from a supporter of a party that hasn’t managed to win majority support in Scotland for 60+ years, and is now on the verge of extinction.
    Always good to see a fan of the SNP dish it out to others while never reporting or reflecting on the growing intray of huge scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood. I see that this week was another good one to bury yet more bad news about the SNP's inability to run a whelk store competently far less an administration at Holyrood while it is in recess and Nicola Sturgeon is flogging her memoirs and trying to settle old grievances with some of the individuals that did dare to stand up and call her out while she was FM.
    Pretty sure the SCons couldn’t run a whelk stall or an administration at Holyrood, but I guess we’ll never find out in at least one of those cases. There’s a slight chance that Murdo might have some ability with molluscs but a hae ma doots.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,422
    edited August 22
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Has he been buying stock in Four Seasons Landscaping ahead of the federal contract ?

    Trump: One of the things we are going to be redoing as your parks. I know more about grass than any human being anywhere in the world. We are going to be regrassing your parks

    He just paved over the Rose Garden
    Just wait for the triumphant "successful delivery" press release end September / October... "in August this was all dead and brown, now as you can see in these photos, thanks to your President, it's green"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,967
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There's finally something in this country to rail against -the disgusting rise in the far right -yet there's no party doing it.

    I think you're right. It can only be Labour with a non Tory leader but I wouldn't get excited about Corbyn. He's just a wrecker.

    I don't think Corbyn or Sultana should be leader, but the party should have room for them (and Abbott) in a broader tent. Even Tony Blair recognised that.

    Tony Blair thought of the left as useful idiots who if he threw a bone to them every now and again would keep his working class voters loyal while he did stuff they didn't approve of.

    He also thought this wasn't a problem as they would never hold actual power within the party and so couldn't possibly recontaminate it.
    That's as maybe, but he didn't chuck Corbyn out of the party. He even let Livingstone back into the party despite vocal opposition to the Iraq war and running as an independent against the official Labour candidate.

    He let Livingstone back into the party because he didn't want the embarrassment of Labour coming fourth in the London Mayoral election (having come a very poor third the first time around).

    If Livingstone had lost he would have stayed in the political wilderness for good.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,550
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    Bland Toryism is all the bond markets will permit.
    Not quite true. The bond markets value fiscal and economic reality, and the voters want centrist social democracy of the sort they have voted for consistently since 1945. There is a range of ways in which this can be delivered and more or less competence in delivery. Such voters who wil vote Reform, we will discover, want, in addition to closed borders and fewer refugees, the post 1945 welfare state delivered free and effectively and without the national bankruptcy of a sovereign debt meltdown. Some will work out that that high spend + fiscal probity = high tax for oneself; others will find out later.
    The bond markets are concerned with both credit risk and inflation (and base rate) expectations. I think a lot of commentators focus entirely on the former and forget the latter.

    Case in point, yesterday government borrowing came in below expectations but the gilt yield didn’t fall, in fact it slightly rose over the day. Case in point 2, several European countries have higher debt:gdp ratios than us, lower GDP growth, and also higher current deficits, as of course does the US, but their bond yields are lower.

    If you are investing in a fixed term bond at a fixed rate and you expect inflation and depreciation of the currency, you’ll demand a higher yield even if there is zero default risk.
    The UK has a higher idiot premium under Labour than it has had since Truss. Rachel Reeves is Liz Truss in slow motion as markets lose faith in the UK government's ability to cut spending and bring borrowing under control. We are one poorly received fiscal event away from complete meltdown.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,519
    Dopermean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Has he been buying stock in Four Seasons Landscaping ahead of the federal contract ?

    Trump: One of the things we are going to be redoing as your parks. I know more about grass than any human being anywhere in the world. We are going to be regrassing your parks

    He just paved over the Rose Garden
    Just wait for the triumphant "successful delivery" press release end September / October... "in August this was all dead and brown, now as you can see in these photos, thanks to your President, it's green"
    I would have thought the last thing this President claimed to be was Green!

    Mornin' All!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,908

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    Unfortunately the article is followed by one by Douglas Murray. Where do the Spectator manage to find such unpleasant writers? He oozes poison
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,757
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    There's finally something in this country to rail against -the disgusting rise in the far right -yet there's no party doing it.

    I think you're right. It can only be Labour with a non Tory leader but I wouldn't get excited about Corbyn. He's just a wrecker.

    I don't think Corbyn or Sultana should be leader, but the party should have room for them (and Abbott) in a broader tent. Even Tony Blair recognised that.

    Corbyn should be President or some other figurehead title. He is an exceptional speaker, cutting through to groups of people ignored and unreachable by other politicians. But he's no leader. Neither is Zarah Sultana. So they need someone with a bit of umph to come over.

    Their problem is that they're obsessed with Palestine and they need to be obsessed with social justice instead.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,757

    fitalass said:

    fitalass said:

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Seriously, you are going to have a dig at a politician from an Opposition party when far too many SNP politicians have been turning a blind eye to the many scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood over the last eighteen years?! Maybe if far more of them had not only been paying attention but had also grown a backbone then the party might not be in the mess it is today!
    Always good to get advice from a supporter of a party that hasn’t managed to win majority support in Scotland for 60+ years, and is now on the verge of extinction.
    Always good to see a fan of the SNP dish it out to others while never reporting or reflecting on the growing intray of huge scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood. I see that this week was another good one to bury yet more bad news about the SNP's inability to run a whelk store competently far less an administration at Holyrood while it is in recess and Nicola Sturgeon is flogging her memoirs and trying to settle old grievances with some of the individuals that did dare to stand up and call her out while she was FM.
    Pretty sure the SCons couldn’t run a whelk stall or an administration at Holyrood, but I guess we’ll never find out in at least one of those cases. There’s a slight chance that Murdo might have some ability with molluscs but a hae ma doots.
    Politics is as polarised here as it is south of the wall. Independence becomes a glue which previously bound otherwise disparate groups together - its now crumbling at the edges and beyond.

    Its undeniable that Scotland has delivered things that rUK has not. But its also undeniable that the government is tired, lacking in ideas, and ignores large chunks of the country. The next Holyrood election will be a change election, but it isn't yet clear if we're regenerating into David Tennant again or we get an OMG that's Billie Piper result...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,779
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If you're a Labour supporter, I believe you have a duty to support Starmer and Reeves. They won the election with a majority of 170+.

    Labour isn’t a football team, I imagine people largely support a party that enacts policies they agree with (or stop voting for them when they fail to do so). As we see the days of voting for a donkey with an x coloured rosette are fading fast.
    As a football season ticket holder I can assure you that fans are not uncritical of their team. Indeed at Leicester the most common chants are "Rudkin* must go" and "Sack the Board". Booing the team off is not unusual either. Labour supporters (and Tories too) often feel the same.

    *Rudkin is our Director of Football and blamed for overpaid flops on far too high wages.
    Well exactly, only gloryhunters change their football team.
    Supporters of the mighty Rangers were wanting rid of their manager this week after only 8 matches which might be a record. They’ll still turn out every match even if they walk out at half time when their team’s two down at the break.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 152

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    The interesting thing about those quitting the Tories is they are splitting from all angles, for various reasons. Lib dem, independent, Reform. Maybe it would be a different reaction if their list MSPs thought they could retain their seats on current polling
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,487

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    Yet since the general election the Scottish Tories have been losing voters to the even more reactionary Reform not Labour and the LDs
    In which case, the Scottish Tories have two choices:

    *) To chase Reform down into the reactionary pit.
    *) To choose a more practical position to the problems that face the country.

    The problems with the former are that Reform are kings of that particular hill, and trying to beat them will only cause both of them to descend further into the pit as they become more extremist. That will not be good for the country.

    The problems with the latter is that it is hard, and you need to sell it to a public that is intrigued by Reform's stupid, but easy, 'answers' to the problems that face them.
    There's an additional problem. A fair chunk of the Conservative Party is intrigued by Reform's stupid, but easy, 'answers' to the problems that face them. Recent experience of government has taught them that it's not as simple as that, but would that it were, Mr Robinson, would that it were...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,859
    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    With the Conservatives exhausted & lacking credibility after years in government, and Labour apparently much the same after one year in government & years in Opposition, it's very likely indeed that vast numbers of voters will be looking towards parties on the fringe.

    The next GE may be a spoiled ballot for me.

    The only thing that can save Labour is a change of leadership, losing Starmer. Then declare an amnesty for Corbyn and Sultana and get them back in the party. People didn't vote Labour for this Starmer/Reeves bland Toryism.
    Bland Toryism is all the bond markets will permit.
    Not quite true. The bond markets value fiscal and economic reality, and the voters want centrist social democracy of the sort they have voted for consistently since 1945. There is a range of ways in which this can be delivered and more or less competence in delivery. Such voters who wil vote Reform, we will discover, want, in addition to closed borders and fewer refugees, the post 1945 welfare state delivered free and effectively and without the national bankruptcy of a sovereign debt meltdown. Some will work out that that high spend + fiscal probity = high tax for oneself; others will find out later.
    The bond markets are concerned with both credit risk and inflation (and base rate) expectations. I think a lot of commentators focus entirely on the former and forget the latter.

    Case in point, yesterday government borrowing came in below expectations but the gilt yield didn’t fall, in fact it slightly rose over the day. Case in point 2, several European countries have higher debt:gdp ratios than us, lower GDP growth, and also higher current deficits, as of course does the US, but their bond yields are lower.

    If you are investing in a fixed term bond at a fixed rate and you expect inflation and depreciation of the currency, you’ll demand a higher yield even if there is zero default risk.
    The UK has a higher idiot premium under Labour than it has had since Truss. Rachel Reeves is Liz Truss in slow motion as markets lose faith in the UK government's ability to cut spending and bring borrowing under control. We are one poorly received fiscal event away from complete meltdown.
    My reading is it’s about 30% views on the UK’s ability to bring borrowing down, 30% views on the UK’s growth outlook, and 40% inflation and fx expectations.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,008
    edited August 22
    Labour is shedding votes in large numbers both to the left and the right. However, they are not finished yet. In order to regain enough voters from both sides, they need four things to happen before 2028/29:

    1. Small boat crossings reduced to fairly close to nil.
    2. An end to the fighting in Gaza.
    3. A stable, and growing, economy.
    4. Significant improvements to the NHS.

    Despite all the gloom and doom, and the rabid mood of the public and the press at the moment, it's not inconceivable that all four will make sufficient progress to give Labour a fair chance at the next GE.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,908
    edited August 22
    fitalass said:

    fitalass said:

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Seriously, you are going to have a dig at a politician from an Opposition party when far too many SNP politicians have been turning a blind eye to the many scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood over the last eighteen years?! Maybe if far more of them had not only been paying attention but had also grown a backbone then the party might not be in the mess it is today!
    Always good to get advice from a supporter of a party that hasn’t managed to win majority support in Scotland for 60+ years, and is now on the verge of extinction.
    Always good to see a fan of the SNP dish it out to others while never reporting or reflecting on the growing intray of huge scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood. I see that this week was another good one to bury yet more bad news about the SNP's inability to run a whelk store competently far less an administration at Holyrood while it is in recess and Nicola Sturgeon is flogging her memoirs and trying to settle old grievances with some of the individuals that did dare to stand up and call her out while she was FM.
    I really think you should take the trouble to read Sturgeons book before you continue your misleading critique of it. I makes you sound prejudiced
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,459
    UK two-year gilt yields hit highest level in more than two months

    Guardian business blog
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,967

    UK two-year gilt yields hit highest level in more than two months

    Guardian business blog

    That doesn't sound much like news?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,690
    edited August 22
    The sun is out on the IoW so time to get out and about.

    But first, here's an interesting article by Nick Clegg in the Atlantic from yesterday:

    https://bsky.app/profile/theatlantic.com/post/3lwwzftmjy72q
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,859

    Labour is shedding votes in large numbers both to the left and the right. However, they are not finished yet. In order to regain enough voters from both sides, they need four things to happen before 2028/29:

    1. Small boat crossings reduced to fairly close to nil.
    2. An end to the fighting in Gaza.
    3. A stable, and growing, economy.
    4. Significant improvements to the NHS.

    Despite all the gloom and doom, and the rabid mood of the public and the press at the moment, it's not inconceivable that all four will make sufficient progress to give Labour a fair chance at the next GE.

    Number 2 is true, yet totally out of the control of this government.

    The other thing that’s inevitable is that there will be another unexpected global or UK crisis between now and the election: a financial crash, another pandemic, a new war, a massive natural disaster, a big scandal, a US civil war. Something will happen to shift the narrative.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,519

    fitalass said:

    fitalass said:

    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    That's quite the declaration from Jeremy Balfour.
    I can see others following, The party has lost whatever was left of its mind.
    Can't read more thana bit of the speccy and there's no full reportbut his specific concern seems to be that ther ScoTories don't give a shit aboujt society's vulnerable people.

    Ah, better to inform us, here is his letter:

    https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,jeremy-balfour-msp-quits-reactionary-scottish-conservatives

    Edit: Which also noitably accuses the party of only being interested in the rural areas and being anti the urban areas.
    Fair play for putting his head above the parapet, but has he been paying attention during his three decades of membership?
    Seriously, you are going to have a dig at a politician from an Opposition party when far too many SNP politicians have been turning a blind eye to the many scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood over the last eighteen years?! Maybe if far more of them had not only been paying attention but had also grown a backbone then the party might not be in the mess it is today!
    Always good to get advice from a supporter of a party that hasn’t managed to win majority support in Scotland for 60+ years, and is now on the verge of extinction.
    Always good to see a fan of the SNP dish it out to others while never reporting or reflecting on the growing intray of huge scandals engulfing the SNP Government at Holyrood. I see that this week was another good one to bury yet more bad news about the SNP's inability to run a whelk store competently far less an administration at Holyrood while it is in recess and Nicola Sturgeon is flogging her memoirs and trying to settle old grievances with some of the individuals that did dare to stand up and call her out while she was FM.
    Pretty sure the SCons couldn’t run a whelk stall or an administration at Holyrood, but I guess we’ll never find out in at least one of those cases. There’s a slight chance that Murdo might have some ability with molluscs but a hae ma doots.
    Politics is as polarised here as it is south of the wall. Independence becomes a glue which previously bound otherwise disparate groups together - its now crumbling at the edges and beyond.

    Its undeniable that Scotland has delivered things that rUK has not. But its also undeniable that the government is tired, lacking in ideas, and ignores large chunks of the country. The next Holyrood election will be a change election, but it isn't yet clear if we're regenerating into David Tennant again or we get an OMG that's Billie Piper result...
    A problem for 'one issue' parties, such as Nationalists is that once they get into government they HAVE to deliver, or lose credibility. It's easy (relatively) to be a conservatively inclined or a liberally inclined, or even a socialists nationalist, and put one's economic and/or social belief on the back burner while pursuing the 'greater good' of independence, but when the party fails to deliver independence, then those economic and social beliefs come back to the fore.
    We see it in S. Africa where the ANC isn't quite sure what it is, and in India where eventually Congress fell apart.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,388
    DoctorG said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    The interesting thing about those quitting the Tories is they are splitting from all angles, for various reasons. Lib dem, independent, Reform. Maybe it would be a different reaction if their list MSPs thought they could retain their seats on current polling
    There will be a three way split in Holyrood after next year’s elections. The SNP, and presumably the Greens, who want independence. Reform, who may well be the official opposition, who want to emasculate, if not abolish, Holyrood, and Labour, Tories and Lib Dems who want to retain devolution in its current form. Not a recipe for co-operation.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 152

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile, Tory MSP quits, calling out the party for reactionary politics

    https://x.com/spectator/status/1958781285930840204

    Yet since the general election the Scottish Tories have been losing voters to the even more reactionary Reform not Labour and the LDs
    In which case, the Scottish Tories have two choices:

    *) To chase Reform down into the reactionary pit.
    *) To choose a more practical position to the problems that face the country.

    The problems with the former are that Reform are kings of that particular hill, and trying to beat them will only cause both of them to descend further into the pit as they become more extremist. That will not be good for the country.

    The problems with the latter is that it is hard, and you need to sell it to a public that is intrigued by Reform's stupid, but easy, 'answers' to the problems that face them.
    Would be an astonishing turnaround from 8 and a half months out if the Tories scraped any higher than the high teens in MSPs. The "vote for us to stop independence" spiel is now dead. Reform are pulling away the bulk of ex Torys, some Lab, and a handfuls of others/previous non voters.

    Right now its like the Scottish Tories are losing on points in the 7th round to the invisible man. Couldn't name you a single Reform policltician/candidate based in Scotland

    For the likes of Mr Balfour, polling reality is now hitting them
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,295
    At what point does it become explicit that any country (including USA and UK) being involved in actual, real and effective security guarantees for Ukraine is also saying they are willing for their troops to be killed in that cause? Until that is plain - as it was for example when we engaged in Iraq or Afghanistan - I don't think the politcs of the process has really begun. Tentative prediction: It isn't going to begin in the medium term.
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