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The revolting Welsh. Will they reject Labour? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,625
edited August 14 in General
The revolting Welsh. Will they reject Labour? – politicalbetting.com

The polling currently indicates Reform are on course to win most seats but I think the value might be on Labour at 5/1 if there’s any swingback to the governing party, it might also be a good petri dish to see if there’s any tactical voting against Reform, although Plaid Cymru might also benefit from that too.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,078
    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,275
    I see we've had another late night Leon meltdown.

    Heat and gin and wallpaper fears no doubt.

    Did he flounce in the end? I can't be bothered wading through the whole thread.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,275

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    No point asking me, I play Radiohead LPs.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,708

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    Sure. She writes and sings loads of songs that cut through to people and impart deeper meaning. She understands the music industry and has structured her business so that she maximises control and revenues.

    I'm sure I have heard her stuff but it doesn't resonate with me. I'm not a fan. But the joy of music is that it's entirely subjective - what rocks for one sucks for another, and she seems to be a huge success story.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,592

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,592
    On topic, I doubt Labour will win, but there may be a smidgen of value in 5/1.

    Does tactical voting really work in an electoral system like this though?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,251
    Foxy said:

    On topic, I doubt Labour will win, but there may be a smidgen of value in 5/1.

    Does tactical voting really work in an electoral system like this though?

    It could work in the constituency part.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,406
    Foxy said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
    Suspect "pleasant if rather bland" is part of the point. In a world of a million niches, la Swift has cut through to be broadly liked. That's quite an achievement these days.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,364

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    She is targeting daughters of soccer moms - girls with parents with a bit of money. Wholesome fun etc.

    She realised that the parents would be taking the children to gigs - so made sure that her work appealed to them, to an extent. Same thing as children’s films needing something for the adults who will sit through them as well.

    This is a vast, and growing market, around the world. Add in some genuine talent and a carefully crafted pubic image - billions of dollars flow.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,121
    FPT:
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'll believe it when I see it delivered.
    If I live that long.

    Labour to revive Northern Powerhouse Rail project
    Exclusive: Starmer and Reeves expected to announce move before Labour conference, with aim of boosting backbench morale
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/aug/13/labour-to-revive-northern-powerhouse-rail-project-trains

    "With the aim of boosting backbench morale..." doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

    I thought they had already re-re-re-anounced it?
    They announced it without any money being attached - this time there appears to be some money attached...

    Now they just need to work out how to sort out a train network because if you are building 1 tunnel you may as well keep them around and build another couple of tunnels at the same time for local trains.
    If you finish a tunnel project one week the next tunnel project should be ready to go the following week. Look at how it was done in Norway and the Faroes.

    Instead we dither for a couple of years until the contractors get bored and wander off, then wonder why everything now costs 3x as much.
    Also look at Copenhagen where a lot of metro has been built over the past 10 years..
    That's not really the entire status imo wrt Metros. It's also a failed national politics.

    Very little has been built here because we have had 10-15 years of short-termist slash and burn Government, and if funding is not for example finalised until have way through the spending period - then of course it is chaos, chaos imposed from the centre.

    Exceptions are where we have longer term political structures with real funding over a period, or Govt involvement. We had that from under Thatcher, Major, Blair, in measure.

    And we have a whole series of metro and tram systems in major cities, and London. Just not in the South. Where's the Portsmouth or Southampton Metro, for example? They could have done that whilst Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester were building their light. Why did they not?

    But if local and regional government is slashed by a third or so across the board, wtf do you expect to happen?

    That's why imo the current version of the Conservative Party needs to die, or to recreate itself as something that's fit to be in our society.

    The planning system is not working? Well for years the rhetoric was that such is bad, and it was left to wither on the vine, so of course it is broken. No shit, Sherlock. And they have just had another 15 years and wrecked it all.

    Is there a single area of national life that was not flat on its back in July 2024?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,364
    I’ve never got the sense that Welsh Labour managed (or really tried) the SNP trick of presenting themselves as the plucky opposition, while actually in government.

    So I think the anti-Labour tide will wash a lot of them away.

    The election will crystallise (as the header says) the Reform polling, anti-Reform tactical voting, the Reform “ground game” etc. Lots of data to calibrate future bets.

    Would be interesting to understand how much Reform is locally organising in Wales - or is it still a centrally run party?

    Could the tide sweep Kemi away, as well?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,251

    I’ve never got the sense that Welsh Labour managed (or really tried) the SNP trick of presenting themselves as the plucky opposition, while actually in government.

    So I think the anti-Labour tide will wash a lot of them away.

    The election will crystallise (as the header says) the Reform polling, anti-Reform tactical voting, the Reform “ground game” etc. Lots of data to calibrate future bets.

    Would be interesting to understand how much Reform is locally organising in Wales - or is it still a centrally run party?

    Could the tide sweep Kemi away, as well?

    Yes, the only reason she hasn't been ousted is that likes of Jenrick and Cleverly want her to take the blame for the shellacking in the 2026 Welsh & Scottish elections.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,168
    Foxy said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
    Yes, however admirable, the music does nothing for me either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,078

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    She is targeting daughters of soccer moms - girls with parents with a bit of money. Wholesome fun etc.

    She realised that the parents would be taking the children to gigs - so made sure that her work appealed to them, to an extent. Same thing as children’s films needing something for the adults who will sit through them as well.

    This is a vast, and growing market, around the world. Add in some genuine talent and a carefully crafted pubic image - billions of dollars flow.
    Thanks. So it's essentially Kidzbopz for older girls.

    Got it.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,847
    Good morning, interesting story on Today just now about people kicking off about Wolverhampton Council charging more for wider graves. Apparently they want £450 for the wider graves often required now.

    As far as I can see this is fair enough, the land has a cost and it is obviously extra Labour but others are saying that is an unfair fat tax.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,708
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'll believe it when I see it delivered.
    If I live that long.

    Labour to revive Northern Powerhouse Rail project
    Exclusive: Starmer and Reeves expected to announce move before Labour conference, with aim of boosting backbench morale
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/aug/13/labour-to-revive-northern-powerhouse-rail-project-trains

    "With the aim of boosting backbench morale..." doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

    I thought they had already re-re-re-anounced it?
    They announced it without any money being attached - this time there appears to be some money attached...

    Now they just need to work out how to sort out a train network because if you are building 1 tunnel you may as well keep them around and build another couple of tunnels at the same time for local trains.
    If you finish a tunnel project one week the next tunnel project should be ready to go the following week. Look at how it was done in Norway and the Faroes.

    Instead we dither for a couple of years until the contractors get bored and wander off, then wonder why everything now costs 3x as much.
    Also look at Copenhagen where a lot of metro has been built over the past 10 years..
    That's not really the entire status imo wrt Metros. It's also a failed national politics.

    Very little has been built here because we have had 10-15 years of short-termist slash and burn Government, and if funding is not for example finalised until have way through the spending period - then of course it is chaos, chaos imposed from the centre.

    Exceptions are where we have longer term political structures with real funding over a period, or Govt involvement. We had that from under Thatcher, Major, Blair, in measure.

    And we have a whole series of metro and tram systems in major cities, and London. Just not in the South. Where's the Portsmouth or Southampton Metro, for example? They could have done that whilst Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester were building their light. Why did they not?

    But if local and regional government is slashed by a third or so across the board, wtf do you expect to happen?

    That's why imo the current version of the Conservative Party needs to die, or to recreate itself as something that's fit to be in our society.

    The planning system is not working? Well for years the rhetoric was that such is bad, and it was left to wither on the vine, so of course it is broken. No shit, Sherlock. And they have just had another 15 years and wrecked it all.

    Is there a single area of national life that was not flat on its back in July 2024?
    When I lived in Stockton on Tees the local Tories were endlessly knocking the town down. The Labour-led council had a clear vision for regeneration, bitterly opposed by the Tories. Redoing the high street? Waste of money! Refurbishing and reopening the only mid-size theatre between Leeds and Newcastle? A white elephant! Building a council owned hotel? Nobody will stay there! Buying and bulldozing empty shops to make a smaller busier high street? Madness!

    Every single thing has worked. Stockton Globe is a huge success as is the Hampton by Hilton. Stockton hosts its annual Riverside festival which pulls in performers from around the globe. The shuttered shops have been flattened and a riverside park is going in.

    The key word is *investment*. Tories don't understand that the part the broke the most in the UK is that they turned investment into a dirty word. Persuaded people that the state can't invest, can't own, is incompetent. As other states sold us electricity and ran transport and delivered parcels here in the UK. Persuaded business that investment would be a waste of time - why spend money on a foreign-owned UK asset when speculation will see it rise in value anyway? Go look at who owns so many shuttered high street properties. And crippled the public sector and national and local level so that we can't afford teachers and can't afford your operation and can't afford to fill in pot holes or get rid of the weeds growing through the cracks in the pavement.

    The Tories literally broke this country. Whilst slamming us with record peacetime taxes to boot. Its no wonder that people are laughing at their attempts this week to claim that their mess is actually Labour's mess actually. Then again Labour have fallen into the same "can't afford it" trap and are continuing the misery.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,523

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    There's loads of modern culture - in fact, culture more widely - I don't understand. Why Mrs Browns Boys is popular? How Ricky Gervais ever got a career? Who the **** goes to the opera? Why does anyone find cricket appealing, when they could watch some paint drying instead? I just cannot understand it.

    Then again, I love running and (currently...) triathlon. I was a long-distance walker. I used to find F1 riveting. I love heavy engineering of all sorts, and especially railways and tunnelling. I love reading. All of which others might find hard to understand or, dare I say it, weird.

    We are not all the same, and most of us have different interests and things that appeal. Mrs J's a Prog Rock chick. I'm an electropop devotee. It'd be boring if we both liked exactly the same things. Vive la difference!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,092
    Morning all :)

    Do I see some slightly less disastrous economic news this morning? Welcome if so. I can only see what I see but I've noted racecourse attendances have been improving in the summer so there' still some discretionary income out there. Haydock's three day Rose of Lancaster meeting last weekend had its best figures since the pandemic.

    As for Wales, with a new electoral system in place, it's very hard to call especially as the last seat projection I saw for the new Senedd had Plaid, Reform and Labour almost level between 27 and 29 seats each leaving the Conservatives, LDs and Greens to the scraps from the table.

    Either way, it seems improbable any of the three main parties can find a majority themselves and any majority permutation seems to involve two of them so Plaid-Labour (in some form) looks favourite given, I imagine, no one will want to deal with Reform. I can foresee the latter winning most seats, trying to form a Government, failing and then spending the next four years or so whingeing about it.

    The strange thing is, the more you try to break the system, the more the system fights to regain its cohesion. Thats why, contrary to many on here, I could foresee the Conservatives supporting a minority Labour Government rather than a minority Reform administration. Going in with Reform would likely ensure a similar result for the Conservatives in 2034 as the LDs "enjoyed" in 2015.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,121

    Foxy said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
    Suspect "pleasant if rather bland" is part of the point. In a world of a million niches, la Swift has cut through to be broadly liked. That's quite an achievement these days.
    If we make a comparison, whose role is Taylor Swift fulfilling in the market compared to 20, 40, 60 years ago. Albeit regionally / globally, not nationally.

    If we are looking for OK for parents whilst attractive to kids (I'm not assigning age groups - I get that wrong) - Spice Girls? Destiny's Child? Kylie? Abba?

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,790
    boulay said:

    Good morning, interesting story on Today just now about people kicking off about Wolverhampton Council charging more for wider graves. Apparently they want £450 for the wider graves often required now.

    As far as I can see this is fair enough, the land has a cost and it is obviously extra Labour but others are saying that is an unfair fat tax.

    I don’t understand why people whine about every single little tax or cost. Everything has a cost
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,353
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,168
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Do I see some slightly less disastrous economic news this morning? Welcome if so. I can only see what I see but I've noted racecourse attendances have been improving in the summer so there' still some discretionary income out there. Haydock's three day Rose of Lancaster meeting last weekend had its best figures since the pandemic.

    As for Wales, with a new electoral system in place, it's very hard to call especially as the last seat projection I saw for the new Senedd had Plaid, Reform and Labour almost level between 27 and 29 seats each leaving the Conservatives, LDs and Greens to the scraps from the table.

    Either way, it seems improbable any of the three main parties can find a majority themselves and any majority permutation seems to involve two of them so Plaid-Labour (in some form) looks favourite given, I imagine, no one will want to deal with Reform. I can foresee the latter winning most seats, trying to form a Government, failing and then spending the next four years or so whingeing about it.

    The strange thing is, the more you try to break the system, the more the system fights to regain its cohesion. Thats why, contrary to many on here, I could foresee the Conservatives supporting a minority Labour Government rather than a minority Reform administration. Going in with Reform would likely ensure a similar result for the Conservatives in 2034 as the LDs "enjoyed" in 2015.

    That makes a fair amount of sense.
    A Conservative wishing to stay as a party distinct from Reform is unlikely to sign their party's death warrant in that manner.

    Those more interested in their careers will probably jump ship anyway.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,823

    Foxy said:

    On topic, I doubt Labour will win, but there may be a smidgen of value in 5/1.

    Does tactical voting really work in an electoral system like this though?

    It could work in the constituency part.
    I might be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the whole voting structure was changing for the next election, and they are binning the 'constituency' vs 'top-up' differential. Instead it will be Proportional Representation, with Closed Party Lists, in 16 separate constituency's (created by pairing 2 Westminster constituency's together), with 6 people elected from each constituency and no balancing out. Firstly this means that there are 96 seats not the current 60 - and secondly it means that tactical voting really isn't (or shouldn't be) a thing.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,121

    boulay said:

    Good morning, interesting story on Today just now about people kicking off about Wolverhampton Council charging more for wider graves. Apparently they want £450 for the wider graves often required now.

    As far as I can see this is fair enough, the land has a cost and it is obviously extra Labour but others are saying that is an unfair fat tax.

    I don’t understand why people whine about every single little tax or cost. Everything has a cost
    On graves, one reason maybe that the last time a family had to do with it was 10 or 30 years ago, so there is a memory of the "good old days".

    And a lot more people have to have extra wide these days.

    Don't we have a similar thing on airlines with "you'll need an extra seat for the other half of your person, sir"? :smile:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,168
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
    Suspect "pleasant if rather bland" is part of the point. In a world of a million niches, la Swift has cut through to be broadly liked. That's quite an achievement these days.
    If we make a comparison, whose role is Taylor Swift fulfilling in the market compared to 20, 40, 60 years ago. Albeit regionally / globally, not nationally.

    If we are looking for OK for parents whilst attractive to kids (I'm not assigning age groups - I get that wrong) - Spice Girls? Destiny's Child? Kylie? Abba?

    Not ABBA; they are genuine musical geniuses.
    And aren't the rest rather more manufactured than is Swift ?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,708
    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,121
    Has anybody else take an interest in the Trump administration's "Human Rights Reports" by country (except the USA). It's an annual thing.

    TLDR IMO: Scope is reduced, it is unapologetically politicised, and it treats the USA as the standard.

    https://www.state.gov/reports/2024-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/

    UK. France, Germany etc are similar:
    "EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
    The human rights situation worsened in the United Kingdom during the year.

    Significant human rights issues included credible reports of serious restrictions on freedom of expression, including enforcement of or threat of criminal or civil laws in order to limit expression; and crimes, violence, or threats of violence motivated by antisemitism.

    The government sometimes took credible steps to identify and punish officials who committed human rights abuses, but prosecution and punishment for such abuses was inconsistent."

    https://www.state.gov/reports/2024-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/united-kingdom/

    This "officials who committed human rights abuses" is a strange phrase. And the report on Ukraine is peculiar.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,675
    Battlebus said:
    I’ve noted that European leaders have recently adopted the patented SKS flatter Trump and you just might get a result approach. I fear this may have spread to the Nobel committee and the prize will be awarded to a smirking Trump just at the point Gazans are being loaded onto transports to camps in the south (Sudan).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,505

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Don't forget the main thrust of why Britain is broken leads us back to Nigel Farage's big moment in the sun, namely Brexit. All the things he doesn't like such as small boats and darker skinned doctors and nurses came about from collateral damage done by Brexit.

    He broke Britain and now he's blaming everyone else.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,364

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    She is targeting daughters of soccer moms - girls with parents with a bit of money. Wholesome fun etc.

    She realised that the parents would be taking the children to gigs - so made sure that her work appealed to them, to an extent. Same thing as children’s films needing something for the adults who will sit through them as well.

    This is a vast, and growing market, around the world. Add in some genuine talent and a carefully crafted pubic image - billions of dollars flow.
    Thanks. So it's essentially Kidzbopz for older girls.

    Got it.
    I would say there is more depth to her work than that - hence the enduring appeal as her earlier fans get older. Which is why she is in the big money category.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,523

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,121
    edited August 14
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
    Suspect "pleasant if rather bland" is part of the point. In a world of a million niches, la Swift has cut through to be broadly liked. That's quite an achievement these days.
    If we make a comparison, whose role is Taylor Swift fulfilling in the market compared to 20, 40, 60 years ago. Albeit regionally / globally, not nationally.

    If we are looking for OK for parents whilst attractive to kids (I'm not assigning age groups - I get that wrong) - Spice Girls? Destiny's Child? Kylie? Abba?

    Not ABBA; they are genuine musical geniuses.
    And aren't the rest rather more manufactured than is Swift ?
    But ABBA were "manufactured" in a sense by Stig Anderson, including global acceptability, personal narratives, and public image. They always stayed the "wholesome" side of the line - unless I missed some interesting bits.

    Genius does not preclude image manufacture, surely? I'm sure that someone can come up with an example from the music hall era.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,069

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Don't forget the main thrust of why Britain is broken leads us back to Nigel Farage's big moment in the sun, namely Brexit. All the things he doesn't like such as small boats and darker skinned doctors and nurses came about from collateral damage done by Brexit.

    He broke Britain and now he's blaming everyone else.
    So you're saying that without Brexit there would have been much lower spending on the NHS and so there would have been 300k fewer NHS workers.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,847
    MattW said:

    Has anybody else take an interest in the Trump administration's "Human Rights Reports" by country (except the USA). It's an annual thing.

    TLDR IMO: Scope is reduced, it is unapologetically politicised, and it treats the USA as the standard.

    https://www.state.gov/reports/2024-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/

    UK. France, Germany etc are similar:
    "EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
    The human rights situation worsened in the United Kingdom during the year.

    Significant human rights issues included credible reports of serious restrictions on freedom of expression, including enforcement of or threat of criminal or civil laws in order to limit expression; and crimes, violence, or threats of violence motivated by antisemitism.

    The government sometimes took credible steps to identify and punish officials who committed human rights abuses, but prosecution and punishment for such abuses was inconsistent."

    https://www.state.gov/reports/2024-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/united-kingdom/

    This "officials who committed human rights abuses" is a strange phrase. And the report on Ukraine is peculiar.

    Glass houses and all that. Having the top legal bod threatening people for lawful actions and arranging for their wife to lose their govt job aren’t the actions of a state which values freedom of expression and doesn’t approve of “ enforcement of or threat of criminal or civil laws in order to limit expression”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/13/ice-alert-app-trump
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,505

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    It saddens me, but this site - this pub - is dying. Visitors are in major decline

    The deadly PB centrist Dads chased away @williamglenn and he has not returned. And he was an absolutely key, crucial commenter. You stupid fucking fools banned him, simply because you didn't like his rightwing opinions. And now look where we are. He didn't even break any rules - he was banned for "wrongthink"

    You are utter fucking imbeciles. You have turned this place into Bluesky. And no one uses Bluesky. Morons

    I don’t know if that is the reason, but it does feel like the peak is behind us. In the early to mid 2010s, leading up to the referendum it was brilliant on here, despite me being banned about a hundred times for one thing or another.

    Richard Nabavi, Tim, Antifrank, Southam Observer, Charles, Mike Smithson, Plato; these were big characters that have been written out or left and not replaced. Can’t think why really, but it is a shame
    The site was at its worse during the 2024 Presidential election, when anything anti-Trump was cheered and anything pro-Trump (i.e. that he might win) was rounded on and shouted down such that some people stopped posting.

    That was totally unforgivable. It's the sort of thing that could have led to a splinter site - the "real" politicalbetting.com - as the original one was recognised to have lost its way.
    Of course this is where JD Vance has a point, all these anti-Trump PBers getting cancelled by the PB blob, or PB Trumpers taking their bat and ball home does demonstrate free speech is dead.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,523

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    She is targeting daughters of soccer moms - girls with parents with a bit of money. Wholesome fun etc.

    She realised that the parents would be taking the children to gigs - so made sure that her work appealed to them, to an extent. Same thing as children’s films needing something for the adults who will sit through them as well.

    This is a vast, and growing market, around the world. Add in some genuine talent and a carefully crafted pubic image - billions of dollars flow.
    Thanks. So it's essentially Kidzbopz for older girls.

    Got it.
    I would say there is more depth to her work than that - hence the enduring appeal as her earlier fans get older. Which is why she is in the big money category.
    It'll be interesting to see if she joins the ranks of musicians such as Madonna or Kylie (and Bowie...) who can constantly reinvent themselves and their music to appeal to a new generation - and still keep the old fans onside. Or whether she'll just be like Dolly Parton - a excellent musician who found it hard to get widespread musical appeal outside her genre, but became very influential in other ways, as well as becoming a cultural icon.

    I cannot name a single Taylor Swift song, despite having heard a few over the years. None has caught me in the same way (say) "Stand by your man" or "Jolene" have. Perhaps that's just me and my ignorant musical tastes...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,364

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Farage has tried, to an extent, to keep the obvious Tommy Lots of Names types out of the front line of Reform.

    But they keep popping up, like mushrooms.

    I think the party structure was as a result of previous political ventures being overwhelmed by the lunatic and criminal.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,505

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Don't forget the main thrust of why Britain is broken leads us back to Nigel Farage's big moment in the sun, namely Brexit. All the things he doesn't like such as small boats and darker skinned doctors and nurses came about from collateral damage done by Brexit.

    He broke Britain and now he's blaming everyone else.
    So you're saying that without Brexit there would have been much lower spending on the NHS and so there would have been 300k fewer NHS workers.
    Where did I say that?

    Nigel didn't like Portuguese and Polish nurses so he removed freedom of movement. And now, after Boris had to import lots of Nurses from the Indian subcontinent, Nigel says he doesn't like them either.

    I wish he'd make his mind up.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,708

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Don't forget the main thrust of why Britain is broken leads us back to Nigel Farage's big moment in the sun, namely Brexit. All the things he doesn't like such as small boats and darker skinned doctors and nurses came about from collateral damage done by Brexit.

    He broke Britain and now he's blaming everyone else.
    Brexit happened *because* Britain was *already* broken.

    It accelerated the decline, but the decline was already there. Whole communities / towns / regions. Where the security of good jobs which pay the bills had gone. Where public services were crumbling. Where the social fabric binding them together was fraying. Farage blamed the decline on Europe. The decline was already there.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,847

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    She is targeting daughters of soccer moms - girls with parents with a bit of money. Wholesome fun etc.

    She realised that the parents would be taking the children to gigs - so made sure that her work appealed to them, to an extent. Same thing as children’s films needing something for the adults who will sit through them as well.

    This is a vast, and growing market, around the world. Add in some genuine talent and a carefully crafted pubic image - billions of dollars flow.
    Thanks. So it's essentially Kidzbopz for older girls.

    Got it.
    I would say there is more depth to her work than that - hence the enduring appeal as her earlier fans get older. Which is why she is in the big money category.
    It'll be interesting to see if she joins the ranks of musicians such as Madonna or Kylie (and Bowie...) who can constantly reinvent themselves and their music to appeal to a new generation - and still keep the old fans onside. Or whether she'll just be like Dolly Parton - a excellent musician who found it hard to get widespread musical appeal outside her genre, but became very influential in other ways, as well as becoming a cultural icon.

    I cannot name a single Taylor Swift song, despite having heard a few over the years. None has caught me in the same way (say) "Stand by your man" or "Jolene" have. Perhaps that's just me and my ignorant musical tastes...
    “Stand by your man” Being a Tammy Wynette song suggests Dolly’s affects on you are as deep as Taylor Swift’s.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,592

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    There's loads of modern culture - in fact, culture more widely - I don't understand. Why Mrs Browns Boys is popular? How Ricky Gervais ever got a career? Who the **** goes to the opera? Why does anyone find cricket appealing, when they could watch some paint drying instead? I just cannot understand it.

    Then again, I love running and (currently...) triathlon. I was a long-distance walker. I used to find F1 riveting. I love heavy engineering of all sorts, and especially railways and tunnelling. I love reading. All of which others might find hard to understand or, dare I say it, weird.

    We are not all the same, and most of us have different interests and things that appeal. Mrs J's a Prog Rock chick. I'm an electropop devotee. It'd be boring if we both liked exactly the same things. Vive la difference!
    Mrs Foxy and I have quite divergent musical tastes. She cannot comprehend my love of Northern Soul, Reggae, Heavy Metal and least of all my Talking Heads fandom. She likes anodyne singer songwriters.

    We do have some common ground in that we both like Seventies cheese (Carpenters, Abba, Bobby Gentry etc) and Country Music from the Sixties and Seventies.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,069

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,708

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    I can see the perspective. Even there it is refreshing to actually recognise things are broken.

    The Tories heavily damaged the economy and services and society. And are now whining that Labour is doing the things they did, or hasn't done the things they didn't do. And people are laughing at them. They can't admit they - Badenoch and Truss in particular - did anything wrong. Labour are the same - no mistakes here, no lack of vision, no lack of a clue what to do. Just blame the Tories for all the things we are now doing.

    Like an alcoholic needing to admit they are one, British politicians need to accept that things are broken, look at the macro not the micro and start proposing ways to change. For all that Farage gets attacked for attacking the NHS, he's right. The NHSes are bonfires - the more money we thrown on top the more ash lands at the bottom to create crises in delivery. We need to change the system not burn more money. Same with UC. Same with housing. Same with energy. Same with planning.

    We can't go on as we are and we can't just fiddle around with micro edge policies. Lunch clubs are important Labour, but the bigger problem is a lack of teachers and assistants and that the existing ones are exhausted and quitting.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,505
    edited August 14

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Don't forget the main thrust of why Britain is broken leads us back to Nigel Farage's big moment in the sun, namely Brexit. All the things he doesn't like such as small boats and darker skinned doctors and nurses came about from collateral damage done by Brexit.

    He broke Britain and now he's blaming everyone else.
    Brexit happened *because* Britain was *already* broken.

    It accelerated the decline, but the decline was already there. Whole communities / towns / regions. Where the security of good jobs which pay the bills had gone. Where public services were crumbling. Where the social fabric binding them together was fraying. Farage blamed the decline on Europe. The decline was already there.
    That is true, but surely you can indulge me in a dig at Brexit.

    I suspect Farage would have been at one with lazy trade unionist British workers ( the enemy within) being replaced in the free market by importing cheap labour produced product from China and the Indian subcontinent. It kept consumption up and inflation down after all.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,523
    boulay said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    She is targeting daughters of soccer moms - girls with parents with a bit of money. Wholesome fun etc.

    She realised that the parents would be taking the children to gigs - so made sure that her work appealed to them, to an extent. Same thing as children’s films needing something for the adults who will sit through them as well.

    This is a vast, and growing market, around the world. Add in some genuine talent and a carefully crafted pubic image - billions of dollars flow.
    Thanks. So it's essentially Kidzbopz for older girls.

    Got it.
    I would say there is more depth to her work than that - hence the enduring appeal as her earlier fans get older. Which is why she is in the big money category.
    It'll be interesting to see if she joins the ranks of musicians such as Madonna or Kylie (and Bowie...) who can constantly reinvent themselves and their music to appeal to a new generation - and still keep the old fans onside. Or whether she'll just be like Dolly Parton - a excellent musician who found it hard to get widespread musical appeal outside her genre, but became very influential in other ways, as well as becoming a cultural icon.

    I cannot name a single Taylor Swift song, despite having heard a few over the years. None has caught me in the same way (say) "Stand by your man" or "Jolene" have. Perhaps that's just me and my ignorant musical tastes...
    “Stand by your man” Being a Tammy Wynette song suggests Dolly’s affects on you are as deep as Taylor Swift’s.
    Ahem. :)

    I was actually thinking about Tammy Wynette as I wrote that, because of the KLF's contribution to rehabilitating her career, and the difference between Wynette and Parton's careers. Parton managed to remain relevant; Wynette sadly did not.

    (I really rate Parton for her Imagination Library scheme to give books to kids.)
  • isamisam Posts: 42,310

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Goldstein and the two minutes hate
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,837

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'll believe it when I see it delivered.
    If I live that long.

    Labour to revive Northern Powerhouse Rail project
    Exclusive: Starmer and Reeves expected to announce move before Labour conference, with aim of boosting backbench morale
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/aug/13/labour-to-revive-northern-powerhouse-rail-project-trains

    "With the aim of boosting backbench morale..." doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

    I thought they had already re-re-re-anounced it?
    They announced it without any money being attached - this time there appears to be some money attached...

    Now they just need to work out how to sort out a train network because if you are building 1 tunnel you may as well keep them around and build another couple of tunnels at the same time for local trains.
    If you finish a tunnel project one week the next tunnel project should be ready to go the following week. Look at how it was done in Norway and the Faroes.

    Instead we dither for a couple of years until the contractors get bored and wander off, then wonder why everything now costs 3x as much.
    Also look at Copenhagen where a lot of metro has been built over the past 10 years..
    That's not really the entire status imo wrt Metros. It's also a failed national politics.

    Very little has been built here because we have had 10-15 years of short-termist slash and burn Government, and if funding is not for example finalised until have way through the spending period - then of course it is chaos, chaos imposed from the centre.

    Exceptions are where we have longer term political structures with real funding over a period, or Govt involvement. We had that from under Thatcher, Major, Blair, in measure.

    And we have a whole series of metro and tram systems in major cities, and London. Just not in the South. Where's the Portsmouth or Southampton Metro, for example? They could have done that whilst Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester were building their light. Why did they not?

    But if local and regional government is slashed by a third or so across the board, wtf do you expect to happen?

    That's why imo the current version of the Conservative Party needs to die, or to recreate itself as something that's fit to be in our society.

    The planning system is not working? Well for years the rhetoric was that such is bad, and it was left to wither on the vine, so of course it is broken. No shit, Sherlock. And they have just had another 15 years and wrecked it all.

    Is there a single area of national life that was not flat on its back in July 2024?
    When I lived in Stockton on Tees the local Tories were endlessly knocking the town down. The Labour-led council had a clear vision for regeneration, bitterly opposed by the Tories. Redoing the high street? Waste of money! Refurbishing and reopening the only mid-size theatre between Leeds and Newcastle? A white elephant! Building a council owned hotel? Nobody will stay there! Buying and bulldozing empty shops to make a smaller busier high street? Madness!

    Every single thing has worked. Stockton Globe is a huge success as is the Hampton by Hilton. Stockton hosts its annual Riverside festival which pulls in performers from around the globe. The shuttered shops have been flattened and a riverside park is going in.

    The key word is *investment*. Tories don't understand that the part the broke the most in the UK is that they turned investment into a dirty word. Persuaded people that the state can't invest, can't own, is incompetent. As other states sold us electricity and ran transport and delivered parcels here in the UK. Persuaded business that investment would be a waste of time - why spend money on a foreign-owned UK asset when speculation will see it rise in value anyway? Go look at who owns so many shuttered high street properties. And crippled the public sector and national and local level so that we can't afford teachers and can't afford your operation and can't afford to fill in pot holes or get rid of the weeds growing through the cracks in the pavement.

    The Tories literally broke this country. Whilst slamming us with record peacetime taxes to boot. Its no wonder that people are laughing at their attempts this week to claim that their mess is actually Labour's mess actually. Then again Labour have fallen into the same "can't afford it" trap and are continuing the misery.
    I'm sure you believe the bit in bold, but its not really true in isolation. Lots of governments have made lots of decisions, some not very wise. I'm truly pissed off that we didn't build nuclear power a la France and thus are so heavily reliant on fossil fuels still, so that the Ukraine war caused a huge issue here. I think you fail to credit covid for the disaster it was for ALL economies. Our government, like most western governments, chose to open the borrowing taps to get through and now we have to pay the costs.

    And as for the word 'investment'. IIRC it was a Labour chancellor who turned government spending into 'investment'.

    Its not just the Tories fault.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,592
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
    Suspect "pleasant if rather bland" is part of the point. In a world of a million niches, la Swift has cut through to be broadly liked. That's quite an achievement these days.
    If we make a comparison, whose role is Taylor Swift fulfilling in the market compared to 20, 40, 60 years ago. Albeit regionally / globally, not nationally.

    If we are looking for OK for parents whilst attractive to kids (I'm not assigning age groups - I get that wrong) - Spice Girls? Destiny's Child? Kylie? Abba?

    Not ABBA; they are genuine musical geniuses.
    And aren't the rest rather more manufactured than is Swift ?
    But ABBA were "manufactured" in a sense by Stig Anderson, including global acceptability, personal narratives, and public image. They always stayed the "wholesome" side of the line - unless I missed some interesting bits.

    Genius does not preclude image manufacture, surely? I'm sure that someone can come up with an example from the music hall era.
    Image manufacture has always been a part of genius. Abba started as a folk group, the Beatles playing rock and roll in leather jackets, the novelty songs of early Bowie. All moved past that phase by consciously framing a new image that led the zeitgeist rather than following it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,523

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Hang on. We were told Farage was a political genius who had massive effects on the country's politics despite not being an MP. The man who sold us the gilded land of Brexit. Now he was an utter irrelevance because he was not an MP?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,069

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Don't forget the main thrust of why Britain is broken leads us back to Nigel Farage's big moment in the sun, namely Brexit. All the things he doesn't like such as small boats and darker skinned doctors and nurses came about from collateral damage done by Brexit.

    He broke Britain and now he's blaming everyone else.
    So you're saying that without Brexit there would have been much lower spending on the NHS and so there would have been 300k fewer NHS workers.
    Where did I say that?

    Nigel didn't like Portuguese and Polish nurses so he removed freedom of movement. And now, after Boris had to import lots of Nurses from the Indian subcontinent, Nigel says he doesn't like them either.

    I wish he'd make his mind up.
    Any increase in NHS employment was going to be in large part met by non European workers.

    Brexit was irrelevant as Europe is suffering from a shortage of health workers:

    “All countries of the region face severe problems related to their health and care workforce,” the World Health Organization’s Europe region said in a report earlier this year, warning of potentially dire consequences without urgent government action.

    In France, there are fewer doctors now than in 2012. More than 6 million people, including 600,000 with chronic illnesses, do not have a regular GP and 30% of the population does not have adequate access to health services.

    In Germany, 35,000 care sector posts were vacant last year, 40% more than a decade ago, while a report this summer said that by 2035 more than a third of all health jobs could be unfilled. Facing unprecedented hospital overcrowding due to “a severe shortage of nurses”, even Finland will need 200,000 new workers in the health and social care sector by 2030.

    In Spain, the health ministry announced in May that more than 700,000 people were waiting for surgery, and 5,000 frontline GPs and paediatricians in Madrid have been on strike for nearly a month in protest at years of underfunding and overwork.

    Efforts to replace retiring workers were already “suboptimal”, the WHO Europe report said, but had to now be urgently extended to “improve retention and tackle an expected increase in younger people leaving the workforce due to burnout, ill health and general dissatisfaction”.

    In a third of countries in the region, at least 40% of doctors were aged 55 or over, the report said. Even when younger practitioners stayed despite stress, long hours and often low pay, their reluctance to work in remote rural areas or deprived inner cities had created “medical deserts” that were proving almost impossible to fill.

    “All of these threats represent a ticking time bomb … likely to lead to poor health outcomes, long waiting times, many preventable deaths and potentially even health system collapse,” warned Hans Kluge, the WHO regional director for Europe.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-time-bomb-healthcare-under-threat-across-western-europe
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,825
    isam said:
    That surprises me. I thought it was Tony Blair who was so keen on importing diversity.

    Good morning, everyone.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,707

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    They are fcukwits, simple and easily pleased by any shiny bauble.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,354
    edited August 14
    Morning all.
    5 /1 on Welsh Labour is not a bad bet as things stand - they had two really bad polls in Wales (one with YG, one with FoN ) but other than that close enough to make 5/1 reasonable and they have a track record of recovering from apocalyptic polling in Wales. Against that is beimg in power since the Anarchy and the national plunge. Caerphilly once it happens will give us some idea - finishing third might mean they are heading for a drubbing. They got brutalised in the local election in Llanelli last week and even in the recent hold vote share crashed. Your Party will add further intrigue but we need to see polling on where they are taking votes and from whom
    My guesstimate for Senedd 26 for seats as we stand is

    Ref 25 to 35
    PC 25 to 30
    Lab 18 to 22
    Con 10 to 13
    LD 1 to 4
    Green 0 to 2
    Your Party 0 to 2
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,541

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    She is targeting daughters of soccer moms - girls with parents with a bit of money. Wholesome fun etc.

    She realised that the parents would be taking the children to gigs - so made sure that her work appealed to them, to an extent. Same thing as children’s films needing something for the adults who will sit through them as well.

    This is a vast, and growing market, around the world. Add in some genuine talent and a carefully crafted pubic image - billions of dollars flow.
    Thanks. So it's essentially Kidzbopz for older girls.

    Got it.
    I would say there is more depth to her work than that - hence the enduring appeal as her earlier fans get older. Which is why she is in the big money category.
    I think one of the reasons for her success is authenticity. As a teen girl she wrote songs about boys and breakups which speak to the emotions of teen girls who bought the records.

    As they and she age, the content has matured, as evidenced by this

    https://www.reddit.com/r/TaylorSwift/comments/yand5r/updated_swear_words_chart_in_taylor_swifts_lyrics/#lightbox
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,168
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
    Suspect "pleasant if rather bland" is part of the point. In a world of a million niches, la Swift has cut through to be broadly liked. That's quite an achievement these days.
    If we make a comparison, whose role is Taylor Swift fulfilling in the market compared to 20, 40, 60 years ago. Albeit regionally / globally, not nationally.

    If we are looking for OK for parents whilst attractive to kids (I'm not assigning age groups - I get that wrong) - Spice Girls? Destiny's Child? Kylie? Abba?

    Not ABBA; they are genuine musical geniuses.
    And aren't the rest rather more manufactured than is Swift ?
    But ABBA were "manufactured" in a sense by Stig Anderson, including global acceptability, personal narratives, and public image. They always stayed the "wholesome" side of the line - unless I missed some interesting bits.

    Genius does not preclude image manufacture, surely? I'm sure that someone can come up with an example from the music hall era.
    I was talking about their music rather than image.
    All successful acts are marketed.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,151
    isam said:
    Good thing Blair had over a decade to sort the matter; and a good thing that now we are out of the EU governments post 2020 don't have to align with the EU over the issue. Now that's sorted it's time to focus on the sub-optimal quality of government in countries who produce all these alleged refugees.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,251
    Lennon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic, I doubt Labour will win, but there may be a smidgen of value in 5/1.

    Does tactical voting really work in an electoral system like this though?

    It could work in the constituency part.
    I might be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the whole voting structure was changing for the next election, and they are binning the 'constituency' vs 'top-up' differential. Instead it will be Proportional Representation, with Closed Party Lists, in 16 separate constituency's (created by pairing 2 Westminster constituency's together), with 6 people elected from each constituency and no balancing out. Firstly this means that there are 96 seats not the current 60 - and secondly it means that tactical voting really isn't (or shouldn't be) a thing.
    Ah yes, you’re right.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,121
    edited August 14
    Cycling Mikey, discussed over the last day or two btl, making good use of his platform to highlight a very common problem.

    Can anyone spot the cycle lane? (Aside: you can't ride on painted lines because they have little grip and are dangerous, sometimes with mini changes of level at the edges). Down my way we have no painted cycle lanes; in the 1990s and 2000s they just shared lots of pavements, including where they are only about 1.1m wide. It's cycle infra designed by a traffic engineer who has not been trained or given a target and no money.


    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xxbJxNJJk-Q
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,505

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Knock, knock, hello.

    Farage has driven the narrative since the mid/late 1990s. The fear from within the Conservative Party has been palpable. They drove down the Brexit dead end to prevent him from becoming as incendiary to the future of Conservative electoral fortunes as it looks like he might have become. Tories can take some consolation that he is sweeping Labour away too.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,121
    0.3% growth in Q2 is somewhat better than expected after the growth in Q1 of 0.7%. I think that there was a lot of concern that spending had been brought forward to avoid Trump's insane tariffs and there would be a bigger reaction to that. Clearly there has been some but growth of 1% in H1, whilst hardly exciting, is probably a pass effort these days. Better news for Reeves than she has been getting on the government finances.

    Of course, an economy which is receiving a boost of £150bn additional spending from the government above what they are taking in taxes should be doing better but at least it is not doing worse.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,708

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'll believe it when I see it delivered.
    If I live that long.

    Labour to revive Northern Powerhouse Rail project
    Exclusive: Starmer and Reeves expected to announce move before Labour conference, with aim of boosting backbench morale
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/aug/13/labour-to-revive-northern-powerhouse-rail-project-trains

    "With the aim of boosting backbench morale..." doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

    I thought they had already re-re-re-anounced it?
    They announced it without any money being attached - this time there appears to be some money attached...

    Now they just need to work out how to sort out a train network because if you are building 1 tunnel you may as well keep them around and build another couple of tunnels at the same time for local trains.
    If you finish a tunnel project one week the next tunnel project should be ready to go the following week. Look at how it was done in Norway and the Faroes.

    Instead we dither for a couple of years until the contractors get bored and wander off, then wonder why everything now costs 3x as much.
    Also look at Copenhagen where a lot of metro has been built over the past 10 years..
    That's not really the entire status imo wrt Metros. It's also a failed national politics.

    Very little has been built here because we have had 10-15 years of short-termist slash and burn Government, and if funding is not for example finalised until have way through the spending period - then of course it is chaos, chaos imposed from the centre.

    Exceptions are where we have longer term political structures with real funding over a period, or Govt involvement. We had that from under Thatcher, Major, Blair, in measure.

    And we have a whole series of metro and tram systems in major cities, and London. Just not in the South. Where's the Portsmouth or Southampton Metro, for example? They could have done that whilst Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester were building their light. Why did they not?

    But if local and regional government is slashed by a third or so across the board, wtf do you expect to happen?

    That's why imo the current version of the Conservative Party needs to die, or to recreate itself as something that's fit to be in our society.

    The planning system is not working? Well for years the rhetoric was that such is bad, and it was left to wither on the vine, so of course it is broken. No shit, Sherlock. And they have just had another 15 years and wrecked it all.

    Is there a single area of national life that was not flat on its back in July 2024?
    When I lived in Stockton on Tees the local Tories were endlessly knocking the town down. The Labour-led council had a clear vision for regeneration, bitterly opposed by the Tories. Redoing the high street? Waste of money! Refurbishing and reopening the only mid-size theatre between Leeds and Newcastle? A white elephant! Building a council owned hotel? Nobody will stay there! Buying and bulldozing empty shops to make a smaller busier high street? Madness!

    Every single thing has worked. Stockton Globe is a huge success as is the Hampton by Hilton. Stockton hosts its annual Riverside festival which pulls in performers from around the globe. The shuttered shops have been flattened and a riverside park is going in.

    The key word is *investment*. Tories don't understand that the part the broke the most in the UK is that they turned investment into a dirty word. Persuaded people that the state can't invest, can't own, is incompetent. As other states sold us electricity and ran transport and delivered parcels here in the UK. Persuaded business that investment would be a waste of time - why spend money on a foreign-owned UK asset when speculation will see it rise in value anyway? Go look at who owns so many shuttered high street properties. And crippled the public sector and national and local level so that we can't afford teachers and can't afford your operation and can't afford to fill in pot holes or get rid of the weeds growing through the cracks in the pavement.

    The Tories literally broke this country. Whilst slamming us with record peacetime taxes to boot. Its no wonder that people are laughing at their attempts this week to claim that their mess is actually Labour's mess actually. Then again Labour have fallen into the same "can't afford it" trap and are continuing the misery.
    I'm sure you believe the bit in bold, but its not really true in isolation. Lots of governments have made lots of decisions, some not very wise. I'm truly pissed off that we didn't build nuclear power a la France and thus are so heavily reliant on fossil fuels still, so that the Ukraine war caused a huge issue here. I think you fail to credit covid for the disaster it was for ALL economies. Our government, like most western governments, chose to open the borrowing taps to get through and now we have to pay the costs.

    And as for the word 'investment'. IIRC it was a Labour chancellor who turned government spending into 'investment'.

    Its not just the Tories fault.
    I'm very clear that both parts of the LabCon have failed. But where people today say "this country is broken" and list issues, all of those came to a head under the stewardship of the Tories. They inherited structural issues and made them much much worse.

    At least Labour tried to accept they had got things wrong - and Ed Milliband was vilified for doing so. Badenoch? Screeching about prison releases. Erm, Alex Chalk ring any bells Kemi? The "Pray Date"?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,837
    MattW said:

    Cycling Mikey, discussed over the last day or two btl, making good use of his platform to highlight a very common problem.

    Can anyone spot the cycle lane? (Aside: you can't ride on painted lines because they have little grip and are dangerous, sometimes with mini changes of level at the edges). Down my way we have no painted cycle lanes; in the 1990s and 2000s they just shared lots of pavements, including where they are only about 1.1m wide. It's cycle infra designed by a traffic engineer who has not been trained or given a target and no money.


    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xxbJxNJJk-Q

    I think calling it a murder strip is a bit OTT. A cyclist can use the road like anyone else. The mistake is by some idiot thinking they can add a cycle lane to a narrow road.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,069
    edited August 14

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Hang on. We were told Farage was a political genius who had massive effects on the country's politics despite not being an MP. The man who sold us the gilded land of Brexit. Now he was an utter irrelevance because he was not an MP?
    Was Farage responsible for tripling student tuition fees ?
    Was Farage responsible for triple lock pensions ?
    Was Farage responsible for unaffordable housing ?
    Was Farage responsible for the banks crashing ?
    Was Farage responsible for nimbyism ?
    Was Farage responsible for every infrastructure spending fiasco ?
    Was Farage responsible for defence cuts ?
    Was Farage responsible for social care not being reformed ?
    Was Farage responsible for lack of productivity growth ?
    Was Farage responsible for on line shopping destroying high streets ?
    Was Farage responsible for high energy costs ?
    Was Farage responsible for people wanting more welfarism for themselves ?
    Was Farage responsible for ageing demographics ?
    Was Farage responsible for the effects of AI on young graduates ?

    I don't want Farage anywhere near government as he would likely be disastrous but I'm not going to blame him for things which are varyingly caused by those who have been in government, the general behaviour of the British people, world events and underlying structural factors.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,151

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    This is all true; which means that WRT the UK there is one question even more interesting than all the others. Putting rhetoric and slogans aside, how will Reform actually govern? To govern means to be responsible for gazillions of issues from whether cats should be microchipped to whether we should nuke Russia.

    In my view Reform (assuming they win in 2029 - a 30% chance) - will govern as high spend big state social democrats + closed border nationalists + socially conservative emphasis but in words only. High spend of course = high tax. The bond markets will see to that.

    The result will fairly closely resemble Labour policy in the late 1950s.

    Reasoning: ask the voters of Clacton what they want for themselves of government. The rest follows as night follows day.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,964
    MattW said:

    Cycling Mikey, discussed over the last day or two btl, making good use of his platform to highlight a very common problem.

    Can anyone spot the cycle lane? (Aside: you can't ride on painted lines because they have little grip and are dangerous, sometimes with mini changes of level at the edges). Down my way we have no painted cycle lanes; in the 1990s and 2000s they just shared lots of pavements, including where they are only about 1.1m wide. It's cycle infra designed by a traffic engineer who has not been trained or given a target and no money.


    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xxbJxNJJk-Q

    I don't know why stuff like this is bothered with, it benefits neither the cyclist nor the driver. My guess is whoever dreamt that up probably isn't either a cyclist or a driver.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,737

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Hang on. We were told Farage was a political genius who had massive effects on the country's politics despite not being an MP. The man who sold us the gilded land of Brexit. Now he was an utter irrelevance because he was not an MP?
    Was Farage responsible for tripling student tuition fees ?
    Was Farage responsible for triple lock pensions ?
    Was Farage responsible for unaffordable housing ?
    Was Farage responsible for the banks crashing ?
    Was Farage responsible for nimbyism ?
    Was Farage responsible for every infrastructure spending fiasco ?
    Was Farage responsible for defence cuts ?
    Was Farage responsible for social care not being reformed ?
    Was Farage responsible for lack of productivity growth ?
    Was Farage responsible for on line shopping destroying high streets ?
    Was Farage responsible for high energy costs ?
    Was Farage responsible for people wanting more welfarism for themselves ?
    Was Farage responsible for ageing demographics ?
    Was Farage responsible for the effects of AI on young graduates ?

    I don't want Farage anywhere near government as he would likely be disastrous but I'm not going to blame him for things which are varyingly caused by those who have been in government, the general behaviour of the British people, world events and underlying structural factors.

    He certainly made all of the above harder to remediate or ameliorate due to the economic vandalism of brexit.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,837

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'll believe it when I see it delivered.
    If I live that long.

    Labour to revive Northern Powerhouse Rail project
    Exclusive: Starmer and Reeves expected to announce move before Labour conference, with aim of boosting backbench morale
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/aug/13/labour-to-revive-northern-powerhouse-rail-project-trains

    "With the aim of boosting backbench morale..." doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

    I thought they had already re-re-re-anounced it?
    They announced it without any money being attached - this time there appears to be some money attached...

    Now they just need to work out how to sort out a train network because if you are building 1 tunnel you may as well keep them around and build another couple of tunnels at the same time for local trains.
    If you finish a tunnel project one week the next tunnel project should be ready to go the following week. Look at how it was done in Norway and the Faroes.

    Instead we dither for a couple of years until the contractors get bored and wander off, then wonder why everything now costs 3x as much.
    Also look at Copenhagen where a lot of metro has been built over the past 10 years..
    That's not really the entire status imo wrt Metros. It's also a failed national politics.

    Very little has been built here because we have had 10-15 years of short-termist slash and burn Government, and if funding is not for example finalised until have way through the spending period - then of course it is chaos, chaos imposed from the centre.

    Exceptions are where we have longer term political structures with real funding over a period, or Govt involvement. We had that from under Thatcher, Major, Blair, in measure.

    And we have a whole series of metro and tram systems in major cities, and London. Just not in the South. Where's the Portsmouth or Southampton Metro, for example? They could have done that whilst Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester were building their light. Why did they not?

    But if local and regional government is slashed by a third or so across the board, wtf do you expect to happen?

    That's why imo the current version of the Conservative Party needs to die, or to recreate itself as something that's fit to be in our society.

    The planning system is not working? Well for years the rhetoric was that such is bad, and it was left to wither on the vine, so of course it is broken. No shit, Sherlock. And they have just had another 15 years and wrecked it all.

    Is there a single area of national life that was not flat on its back in July 2024?
    When I lived in Stockton on Tees the local Tories were endlessly knocking the town down. The Labour-led council had a clear vision for regeneration, bitterly opposed by the Tories. Redoing the high street? Waste of money! Refurbishing and reopening the only mid-size theatre between Leeds and Newcastle? A white elephant! Building a council owned hotel? Nobody will stay there! Buying and bulldozing empty shops to make a smaller busier high street? Madness!

    Every single thing has worked. Stockton Globe is a huge success as is the Hampton by Hilton. Stockton hosts its annual Riverside festival which pulls in performers from around the globe. The shuttered shops have been flattened and a riverside park is going in.

    The key word is *investment*. Tories don't understand that the part the broke the most in the UK is that they turned investment into a dirty word. Persuaded people that the state can't invest, can't own, is incompetent. As other states sold us electricity and ran transport and delivered parcels here in the UK. Persuaded business that investment would be a waste of time - why spend money on a foreign-owned UK asset when speculation will see it rise in value anyway? Go look at who owns so many shuttered high street properties. And crippled the public sector and national and local level so that we can't afford teachers and can't afford your operation and can't afford to fill in pot holes or get rid of the weeds growing through the cracks in the pavement.

    The Tories literally broke this country. Whilst slamming us with record peacetime taxes to boot. Its no wonder that people are laughing at their attempts this week to claim that their mess is actually Labour's mess actually. Then again Labour have fallen into the same "can't afford it" trap and are continuing the misery.
    I'm sure you believe the bit in bold, but its not really true in isolation. Lots of governments have made lots of decisions, some not very wise. I'm truly pissed off that we didn't build nuclear power a la France and thus are so heavily reliant on fossil fuels still, so that the Ukraine war caused a huge issue here. I think you fail to credit covid for the disaster it was for ALL economies. Our government, like most western governments, chose to open the borrowing taps to get through and now we have to pay the costs.

    And as for the word 'investment'. IIRC it was a Labour chancellor who turned government spending into 'investment'.

    Its not just the Tories fault.
    I'm very clear that both parts of the LabCon have failed. But where people today say "this country is broken" and list issues, all of those came to a head under the stewardship of the Tories. They inherited structural issues and made them much much worse.

    At least Labour tried to accept they had got things wrong - and Ed Milliband was vilified for doing so. Badenoch? Screeching about prison releases. Erm, Alex Chalk ring any bells Kemi? The "Pray Date"?
    I would argue that the Tories were on course to get to a government surplus until covid hit. Now we can argue that this was doing damage to services and I am sure that is true, but how much damage is having to service the massive debt causing?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,485

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'll believe it when I see it delivered.
    If I live that long.

    Labour to revive Northern Powerhouse Rail project
    Exclusive: Starmer and Reeves expected to announce move before Labour conference, with aim of boosting backbench morale
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/aug/13/labour-to-revive-northern-powerhouse-rail-project-trains

    "With the aim of boosting backbench morale..." doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

    I thought they had already re-re-re-anounced it?
    They announced it without any money being attached - this time there appears to be some money attached...

    Now they just need to work out how to sort out a train network because if you are building 1 tunnel you may as well keep them around and build another couple of tunnels at the same time for local trains.
    If you finish a tunnel project one week the next tunnel project should be ready to go the following week. Look at how it was done in Norway and the Faroes.

    Instead we dither for a couple of years until the contractors get bored and wander off, then wonder why everything now costs 3x as much.
    Also look at Copenhagen where a lot of metro has been built over the past 10 years..
    That's not really the entire status imo wrt Metros. It's also a failed national politics.

    Very little has been built here because we have had 10-15 years of short-termist slash and burn Government, and if funding is not for example finalised until have way through the spending period - then of course it is chaos, chaos imposed from the centre.

    Exceptions are where we have longer term political structures with real funding over a period, or Govt involvement. We had that from under Thatcher, Major, Blair, in measure.

    And we have a whole series of metro and tram systems in major cities, and London. Just not in the South. Where's the Portsmouth or Southampton Metro, for example? They could have done that whilst Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester were building their light. Why did they not?

    But if local and regional government is slashed by a third or so across the board, wtf do you expect to happen?

    That's why imo the current version of the Conservative Party needs to die, or to recreate itself as something that's fit to be in our society.

    The planning system is not working? Well for years the rhetoric was that such is bad, and it was left to wither on the vine, so of course it is broken. No shit, Sherlock. And they have just had another 15 years and wrecked it all.

    Is there a single area of national life that was not flat on its back in July 2024?
    When I lived in Stockton on Tees the local Tories were endlessly knocking the town down. The Labour-led council had a clear vision for regeneration, bitterly opposed by the Tories. Redoing the high street? Waste of money! Refurbishing and reopening the only mid-size theatre between Leeds and Newcastle? A white elephant! Building a council owned hotel? Nobody will stay there! Buying and bulldozing empty shops to make a smaller busier high street? Madness!

    Every single thing has worked. Stockton Globe is a huge success as is the Hampton by Hilton. Stockton hosts its annual Riverside festival which pulls in performers from around the globe. The shuttered shops have been flattened and a riverside park is going in.

    The key word is *investment*. Tories don't understand that the part the broke the most in the UK is that they turned investment into a dirty word. Persuaded people that the state can't invest, can't own, is incompetent. As other states sold us electricity and ran transport and delivered parcels here in the UK. Persuaded business that investment would be a waste of time - why spend money on a foreign-owned UK asset when speculation will see it rise in value anyway? Go look at who owns so many shuttered high street properties. And crippled the public sector and national and local level so that we can't afford teachers and can't afford your operation and can't afford to fill in pot holes or get rid of the weeds growing through the cracks in the pavement.

    The Tories literally broke this country. Whilst slamming us with record peacetime taxes to boot. Its no wonder that people are laughing at their attempts this week to claim that their mess is actually Labour's mess actually. Then again Labour have fallen into the same "can't afford it" trap and are continuing the misery.
    I was flicking through twitter and had two consecutive posts - one was someone celebrating another cycle superhighway in London, with 10s of thousands of commuters whizzing to work, and the next was a Middlesbrough councillor gleefully ripping out a cycle lane with a bunch of a OAPs.

    I'm an advocate for levelling up the country but frankly, a large proportion of people like to wallow in their misery. No wonder the government had largely given up on it. The same happened in Paisley - "these cycle lanes will destroy the local economy!" What economy?!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,069
    Please let this go to court:

    First Lady Melania Trump has threatened to sue Hunter Biden for more than $1bn after he claimed she was introduced to her husband by sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.

    Lawyers acting on behalf of the first lady, who married US President Donald Trump in 2005, described the claim as "false, disparaging, defamatory and inflammatory".

    Biden, son of former US President Joe Biden, made the comments during an interview earlier this month, in which he strongly criticised the president's former ties to Epstein.

    Donald Trump was a friend of Epstein, but has said the pair fell out in the early 2000s because the financier had poached employees who worked at the spa in Trump's Florida golf club.

    A letter from the first lady's lawyers and addressed to an attorney for Hunter Biden demands he retract the claim and apologise, or face legal action for "over $1bn in damages".

    It says the first lady has suffered "overwhelming financial and reputational harm" because of the claim he repeated.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqjyw0l9d82o

    I'm curious as to how she thinks she can get a billion out of Boy Biden.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,847
    O/T but saw this picture earlier and it’s frankly incredible the change it shows.



    The image is an extraordinary demonstration of the staggering changes that have occurred between 1981 and today in the quality of photographs.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,505

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'll believe it when I see it delivered.
    If I live that long.

    Labour to revive Northern Powerhouse Rail project
    Exclusive: Starmer and Reeves expected to announce move before Labour conference, with aim of boosting backbench morale
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/aug/13/labour-to-revive-northern-powerhouse-rail-project-trains

    "With the aim of boosting backbench morale..." doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

    I thought they had already re-re-re-anounced it?
    They announced it without any money being attached - this time there appears to be some money attached...

    Now they just need to work out how to sort out a train network because if you are building 1 tunnel you may as well keep them around and build another couple of tunnels at the same time for local trains.
    If you finish a tunnel project one week the next tunnel project should be ready to go the following week. Look at how it was done in Norway and the Faroes.

    Instead we dither for a couple of years until the contractors get bored and wander off, then wonder why everything now costs 3x as much.
    Also look at Copenhagen where a lot of metro has been built over the past 10 years..
    That's not really the entire status imo wrt Metros. It's also a failed national politics.

    Very little has been built here because we have had 10-15 years of short-termist slash and burn Government, and if funding is not for example finalised until have way through the spending period - then of course it is chaos, chaos imposed from the centre.

    Exceptions are where we have longer term political structures with real funding over a period, or Govt involvement. We had that from under Thatcher, Major, Blair, in measure.

    And we have a whole series of metro and tram systems in major cities, and London. Just not in the South. Where's the Portsmouth or Southampton Metro, for example? They could have done that whilst Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester were building their light. Why did they not?

    But if local and regional government is slashed by a third or so across the board, wtf do you expect to happen?

    That's why imo the current version of the Conservative Party needs to die, or to recreate itself as something that's fit to be in our society.

    The planning system is not working? Well for years the rhetoric was that such is bad, and it was left to wither on the vine, so of course it is broken. No shit, Sherlock. And they have just had another 15 years and wrecked it all.

    Is there a single area of national life that was not flat on its back in July 2024?
    When I lived in Stockton on Tees the local Tories were endlessly knocking the town down. The Labour-led council had a clear vision for regeneration, bitterly opposed by the Tories. Redoing the high street? Waste of money! Refurbishing and reopening the only mid-size theatre between Leeds and Newcastle? A white elephant! Building a council owned hotel? Nobody will stay there! Buying and bulldozing empty shops to make a smaller busier high street? Madness!

    Every single thing has worked. Stockton Globe is a huge success as is the Hampton by Hilton. Stockton hosts its annual Riverside festival which pulls in performers from around the globe. The shuttered shops have been flattened and a riverside park is going in.

    The key word is *investment*. Tories don't understand that the part the broke the most in the UK is that they turned investment into a dirty word. Persuaded people that the state can't invest, can't own, is incompetent. As other states sold us electricity and ran transport and delivered parcels here in the UK. Persuaded business that investment would be a waste of time - why spend money on a foreign-owned UK asset when speculation will see it rise in value anyway? Go look at who owns so many shuttered high street properties. And crippled the public sector and national and local level so that we can't afford teachers and can't afford your operation and can't afford to fill in pot holes or get rid of the weeds growing through the cracks in the pavement.

    The Tories literally broke this country. Whilst slamming us with record peacetime taxes to boot. Its no wonder that people are laughing at their attempts this week to claim that their mess is actually Labour's mess actually. Then again Labour have fallen into the same "can't afford it" trap and are continuing the misery.
    I'm sure you believe the bit in bold, but its not really true in isolation. Lots of governments have made lots of decisions, some not very wise. I'm truly pissed off that we didn't build nuclear power a la France and thus are so heavily reliant on fossil fuels still, so that the Ukraine war caused a huge issue here. I think you fail to credit covid for the disaster it was for ALL economies. Our government, like most western governments, chose to open the borrowing taps to get through and now we have to pay the costs.

    And as for the word 'investment'. IIRC it was a Labour chancellor who turned government spending into 'investment'.

    Its not just the Tories fault.
    I'm very clear that both parts of the LabCon have failed. But where people today say "this country is broken" and list issues, all of those came to a head under the stewardship of the Tories. They inherited structural issues and made them much much worse.

    At least Labour tried to accept they had got things wrong - and Ed Milliband was vilified for doing so. Badenoch? Screeching about prison releases. Erm, Alex Chalk ring any bells Kemi? The "Pray Date"?
    The other thing in Labour's favour is they have only been in office for half the time of the Tories over the last three quarters of a century. A fact that doesn't seem to compute with the PB Tory view that New Labour have been in continual office since 1997.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,995
    Reform UK have come up with an excellent idea to save money. They want outer London boroughs like Bromley to abandon the GLA and go back to Kent. This means cashstrapped councils like Bromley will be able to stop forking out free GLA travelcards for hundreds of thousands of pensioners. That's a Reform UK idea I can support.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,971
    MattW said:

    Cycling Mikey, discussed over the last day or two btl, making good use of his platform to highlight a very common problem.

    Can anyone spot the cycle lane? (Aside: you can't ride on painted lines because they have little grip and are dangerous, sometimes with mini changes of level at the edges). Down my way we have no painted cycle lanes; in the 1990s and 2000s they just shared lots of pavements, including where they are only about 1.1m wide. It's cycle infra designed by a traffic engineer who has not been trained or given a target and no money.


    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xxbJxNJJk-Q

    How do cycle lanes work? You are supposed to give a metre and a half clearance or something like that (is it 2?) when passing a cyclist. Yet painted cycle lanes imply that it's OK to pass as long as the cyclist is in their lane and you are in the car lane, which could be centimetres apart.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,592

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Don't forget the main thrust of why Britain is broken leads us back to Nigel Farage's big moment in the sun, namely Brexit. All the things he doesn't like such as small boats and darker skinned doctors and nurses came about from collateral damage done by Brexit.

    He broke Britain and now he's blaming everyone else.
    So you're saying that without Brexit there would have been much lower spending on the NHS and so there would have been 300k fewer NHS workers.
    Where did I say that?

    Nigel didn't like Portuguese and Polish nurses so he removed freedom of movement. And now, after Boris had to import lots of Nurses from the Indian subcontinent, Nigel says he doesn't like them either.

    I wish he'd make his mind up.
    Any increase in NHS employment was going to be in large part met by non European workers.

    Brexit was irrelevant as Europe is suffering from a shortage of health workers:

    “All countries of the region face severe problems related to their health and care workforce,” the World Health Organization’s Europe region said in a report earlier this year, warning of potentially dire consequences without urgent government action.

    In France, there are fewer doctors now than in 2012. More than 6 million people, including 600,000 with chronic illnesses, do not have a regular GP and 30% of the population does not have adequate access to health services.

    In Germany, 35,000 care sector posts were vacant last year, 40% more than a decade ago, while a report this summer said that by 2035 more than a third of all health jobs could be unfilled. Facing unprecedented hospital overcrowding due to “a severe shortage of nurses”, even Finland will need 200,000 new workers in the health and social care sector by 2030.

    In Spain, the health ministry announced in May that more than 700,000 people were waiting for surgery, and 5,000 frontline GPs and paediatricians in Madrid have been on strike for nearly a month in protest at years of underfunding and overwork.

    Efforts to replace retiring workers were already “suboptimal”, the WHO Europe report said, but had to now be urgently extended to “improve retention and tackle an expected increase in younger people leaving the workforce due to burnout, ill health and general dissatisfaction”.

    In a third of countries in the region, at least 40% of doctors were aged 55 or over, the report said. Even when younger practitioners stayed despite stress, long hours and often low pay, their reluctance to work in remote rural areas or deprived inner cities had created “medical deserts” that were proving almost impossible to fill.

    “All of these threats represent a ticking time bomb … likely to lead to poor health outcomes, long waiting times, many preventable deaths and potentially even health system collapse,” warned Hans Kluge, the WHO regional director for Europe.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-time-bomb-healthcare-under-threat-across-western-europe
    Yes, the shortage of workers in healthcare is worldwide. It's a great career choice still, and likely to remain so in the future. The collapse of the NHS may well mean better pay too as Britons scramble in a market where demand far exceeds capacity.

    All countries have better care in the big cities, as a certain critical mass is needed to have the full range of facilities, but one underappreciated benefit of the NHS is in ensuring at least some level of service even in more remote areas.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,638
    UK inheritance tax clampdown will not spark mass sale of family farms, study shows

    https://www.ft.com/content/918e0ce3-0dc7-470b-968d-94d6982dabdd

    Most UK agricultural estates can shoulder the cost of higher death duties without being forced to sell the family farm, according to analysis of Labour reforms that campaigners fear will hammer rural communities. 

    Eight in 10 farm estates affected by changes to the inheritance tax regime set out in the autumn Budget would be able to pay their entire IHT bill out of non-farm assets, according to a study by the Centre for the Analysis of Taxation, which produces independent academic research on tax policy.

    [...] the NFU welcomed the findings of the report, saying it presented an opportunity for the government to rework the reforms.

    “There are interesting adjustments within the report, that appear to mitigate the impacts on the most vulnerable in our community and enable farms to invest in the future of food production with greater confidence,” said NFU president Tom Bradshaw.


    The report is at https://centax.org.uk/policy-brief-the-impact-of-changes-to-inheritance-tax-on-farm-estates/
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,151

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    Problem is that the racist part is essential to the the essence of Reform. Its people craving a past which was a lot whiter when things were 'better'. Its also the simplistic messaging and solution - get rid of the darkies and all will be well. Reminiscent of get out of Europe and we will be in a new golden age.

    Reform don't have any plans to make things work beyond sending people home. They are a stain on the nation. Most of us are better than that. For sure I have issues with our current immigration policies, and I think the world needs to rethink what asylum means in the 21st century, but Reform are not the answer.
    I don't think Reform have any proposals to 'send home' anyone who is currently a UK citizen or has right of residency in the UK. To the UK public - most anyway - that's a deal breaker. It's fine to keep out Johnny Foreigner you have never met; but to remigrate any of the millions who are here lawfully and mostly our neighbours doing jobs with children in our schools would get millions of the middle class demonstrating.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,823
    OK - so having just had a quick play with a d'Hondt calculator it's going to be interesting and exact orders in seats will actually matter given the nature of the number of parties and the 6 seat constituency size. Take a theoretical seat which is a 3 way battle Lab, PC, Reform - which votes as follows: Lab 26%, PC 25%, Reform 24%, Con 15%, LD 5%, Green 3%, Others 2%. With only 6 seats available, then LD and below don't win anything, Lab, PC, Reform, Con all win 1 seat initially - and then the last 2 seats go to Lab / PC if they just finish ahead of Reform. Equally, a 'Valleys' type seat with Lab 45%, PC 25%, Reform 15%, Con 10% Others 5% means that Lab get 3, PC 2, Reform 1 in terms of seats.

    tl;dr - you need 12-15% in any constituency to be likely to get a seat, 24-30% odd to be confident of getting a second seat - and (depending on the split of votes to parties below 15% that are thus wasted) something like 40% to get a third. I think that the chance of Labour getting most seats is better than 5/1 - but it'll likely be one of those 'value losers' that we all enjoy so much.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,069
    boulay said:

    O/T but saw this picture earlier and it’s frankly incredible the change it shows.



    The image is an extraordinary demonstration of the staggering changes that have occurred between 1981 and today in the quality of photographs.

    I noticed a few years ago that in reports from the Oval that there was a new cluster of office blocks to the west.

    I assume that they are in the new developments around Battersea power station.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,121

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    It saddens me, but this site - this pub - is dying. Visitors are in major decline

    The deadly PB centrist Dads chased away @williamglenn and he has not returned. And he was an absolutely key, crucial commenter. You stupid fucking fools banned him, simply because you didn't like his rightwing opinions. And now look where we are. He didn't even break any rules - he was banned for "wrongthink"

    You are utter fucking imbeciles. You have turned this place into Bluesky. And no one uses Bluesky. Morons

    I don’t know if that is the reason, but it does feel like the peak is behind us. In the early to mid 2010s, leading up to the referendum it was brilliant on here, despite me being banned about a hundred times for one thing or another.

    Richard Nabavi, Tim, Antifrank, Southam Observer, Charles, Mike Smithson, Plato; these were big characters that have been written out or left and not replaced. Can’t think why really, but it is a shame
    The site was at its worse during the 2024 Presidential election, when anything anti-Trump was cheered and anything pro-Trump (i.e. that he might win) was rounded on and shouted down such that some people stopped posting.

    That was totally unforgivable. It's the sort of thing that could have led to a splinter site - the "real" politicalbetting.com - as the original one was recognised to have lost its way.
    Of course this is where JD Vance has a point, all these anti-Trump PBers getting cancelled by the PB blob, or PB Trumpers taking their bat and ball home does demonstrate free speech is dead.
    Isn't what you are describing actually free speech? Anti Trumpers were in the majority, argued their point forcefully and thus took a majority of comment inches. People may have been shouted down but they weren't banned. What you seem to want is a limitation of free speech where a minority view is given protected space. That's a perfectly civilised thing to want but don't get high and mighty about free speech being dead.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,638
    Tax data allays fears of non-dom exodus from UK

    https://www.ft.com/content/14420f4a-06e0-40f6-b5b1-c4e0a36565f0

    HM Revenue & Customs payroll data has found no evidence to suggest more non-doms left Britain in response to Rachel Reeves’ 2024 Budget than official predictions, according to people briefed on the findings.

    [...]

    Reeves was told by the Office for Budget Responsibility to expect 25 per cent of non-doms with trusts to quit the country in response to the crackdown on their tax status, which began under the Conservatives and intensified when Reeves became chancellor last year.

    HMRC data now suggests this prediction is broadly correct, the people said, removing pressure on Reeves to reverse a Labour policy that is forecast to raise more than £4bn in 2026-27 and almost £6bn the following year.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,121
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'll believe it when I see it delivered.
    If I live that long.

    Labour to revive Northern Powerhouse Rail project
    Exclusive: Starmer and Reeves expected to announce move before Labour conference, with aim of boosting backbench morale
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/aug/13/labour-to-revive-northern-powerhouse-rail-project-trains

    "With the aim of boosting backbench morale..." doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

    I thought they had already re-re-re-anounced it?
    They announced it without any money being attached - this time there appears to be some money attached...

    Now they just need to work out how to sort out a train network because if you are building 1 tunnel you may as well keep them around and build another couple of tunnels at the same time for local trains.
    If you finish a tunnel project one week the next tunnel project should be ready to go the following week. Look at how it was done in Norway and the Faroes.

    Instead we dither for a couple of years until the contractors get bored and wander off, then wonder why everything now costs 3x as much.
    Also look at Copenhagen where a lot of metro has been built over the past 10 years..
    That's not really the entire status imo wrt Metros. It's also a failed national politics.

    Very little has been built here because we have had 10-15 years of short-termist slash and burn Government, and if funding is not for example finalised until have way through the spending period - then of course it is chaos, chaos imposed from the centre.

    Exceptions are where we have longer term political structures with real funding over a period, or Govt involvement. We had that from under Thatcher, Major, Blair, in measure.

    And we have a whole series of metro and tram systems in major cities, and London. Just not in the South. Where's the Portsmouth or Southampton Metro, for example? They could have done that whilst Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester were building their light. Why did they not?

    But if local and regional government is slashed by a third or so across the board, wtf do you expect to happen?

    That's why imo the current version of the Conservative Party needs to die, or to recreate itself as something that's fit to be in our society.

    The planning system is not working? Well for years the rhetoric was that such is bad, and it was left to wither on the vine, so of course it is broken. No shit, Sherlock. And they have just had another 15 years and wrecked it all.

    Is there a single area of national life that was not flat on its back in July 2024?
    When I lived in Stockton on Tees the local Tories were endlessly knocking the town down. The Labour-led council had a clear vision for regeneration, bitterly opposed by the Tories. Redoing the high street? Waste of money! Refurbishing and reopening the only mid-size theatre between Leeds and Newcastle? A white elephant! Building a council owned hotel? Nobody will stay there! Buying and bulldozing empty shops to make a smaller busier high street? Madness!

    Every single thing has worked. Stockton Globe is a huge success as is the Hampton by Hilton. Stockton hosts its annual Riverside festival which pulls in performers from around the globe. The shuttered shops have been flattened and a riverside park is going in.

    The key word is *investment*. Tories don't understand that the part the broke the most in the UK is that they turned investment into a dirty word. Persuaded people that the state can't invest, can't own, is incompetent. As other states sold us electricity and ran transport and delivered parcels here in the UK. Persuaded business that investment would be a waste of time - why spend money on a foreign-owned UK asset when speculation will see it rise in value anyway? Go look at who owns so many shuttered high street properties. And crippled the public sector and national and local level so that we can't afford teachers and can't afford your operation and can't afford to fill in pot holes or get rid of the weeds growing through the cracks in the pavement.

    The Tories literally broke this country. Whilst slamming us with record peacetime taxes to boot. Its no wonder that people are laughing at their attempts this week to claim that their mess is actually Labour's mess actually. Then again Labour have fallen into the same "can't afford it" trap and are continuing the misery.
    I was flicking through twitter and had two consecutive posts - one was someone celebrating another cycle superhighway in London, with 10s of thousands of commuters whizzing to work, and the next was a Middlesbrough councillor gleefully ripping out a cycle lane with a bunch of a OAPs.

    I'm an advocate for levelling up the country but frankly, a large proportion of people like to wallow in their misery. No wonder the government had largely given up on it. The same happened in Paisley - "these cycle lanes will destroy the local economy!" What economy?!
    I am bewildered by that claim in Paisley where the main economic activity, so far as I can tell, is the transportation and sale of illegal drugs. Surely cycle lanes are making a significant contribution to that both in distribution and retail space?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,121
    edited August 14
    TimS said:

    Happy A level results day everyone.

    A very pleasant upside surprise in the S household today, after an early morning drive to school.

    Congratulations. Presumably now going on to the University of their choice?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,406
    Tres said:

    Reform UK have come up with an excellent idea to save money. They want outer London boroughs like Bromley to abandon the GLA and go back to Kent. This means cashstrapped councils like Bromley will be able to stop forking out free GLA travelcards for hundreds of thousands of pensioners. That's a Reform UK idea I can support.

    If they're anything like Andrew Rosindell (who has been pushing a similar idea for Havering for ever), they will quickly add "but keeping London travel cards" to the plan. Because London needs its outermost boroughs more than those boroughs need London or something. Easiest deal in history and all that.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,505
    ...

    Please let this go to court:

    First Lady Melania Trump has threatened to sue Hunter Biden for more than $1bn after he claimed she was introduced to her husband by sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.

    Lawyers acting on behalf of the first lady, who married US President Donald Trump in 2005, described the claim as "false, disparaging, defamatory and inflammatory".

    Biden, son of former US President Joe Biden, made the comments during an interview earlier this month, in which he strongly criticised the president's former ties to Epstein.

    Donald Trump was a friend of Epstein, but has said the pair fell out in the early 2000s because the financier had poached employees who worked at the spa in Trump's Florida golf club.

    A letter from the first lady's lawyers and addressed to an attorney for Hunter Biden demands he retract the claim and apologise, or face legal action for "over $1bn in damages".

    It says the first lady has suffered "overwhelming financial and reputational harm" because of the claim he repeated.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqjyw0l9d82o

    I'm curious as to how she thinks she can get a billion out of Boy Biden.

    I watch an awful lot of Democrat and Never Trump Republicans on YouTube and the Trump/ Epstein connection is irrefutable. Whether he was doing the same stuff as Epstein is less cut and dried. I suppose it depends if one sees Katie Johnson as a reliable witness or otherwise.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,707
    isam said:

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Goldstein and the two minutes hate
    It's been a while since I read it but I don't recall Goldstein being given much of a platform. You never heard from the guy.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,069
    Dura_Ace said:

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Hang on. We were told Farage was a political genius who had massive effects on the country's politics despite not being an MP. The man who sold us the gilded land of Brexit. Now he was an utter irrelevance because he was not an MP?
    Was Farage responsible for tripling student tuition fees ?
    Was Farage responsible for triple lock pensions ?
    Was Farage responsible for unaffordable housing ?
    Was Farage responsible for the banks crashing ?
    Was Farage responsible for nimbyism ?
    Was Farage responsible for every infrastructure spending fiasco ?
    Was Farage responsible for defence cuts ?
    Was Farage responsible for social care not being reformed ?
    Was Farage responsible for lack of productivity growth ?
    Was Farage responsible for on line shopping destroying high streets ?
    Was Farage responsible for high energy costs ?
    Was Farage responsible for people wanting more welfarism for themselves ?
    Was Farage responsible for ageing demographics ?
    Was Farage responsible for the effects of AI on young graduates ?

    I don't want Farage anywhere near government as he would likely be disastrous but I'm not going to blame him for things which are varyingly caused by those who have been in government, the general behaviour of the British people, world events and underlying structural factors.

    He certainly made all of the above harder to remediate or ameliorate due to the economic vandalism of brexit.
    Amazing thing Brexit as it has somehow infected all the EU with the same problems which it has apparently caused in this country.

    Or perhaps Europe's problems are more fundamental and have sod all to do with Brexit and even less to do with Farage.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,638

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    She is targeting daughters of soccer moms - girls with parents with a bit of money. Wholesome fun etc.

    She realised that the parents would be taking the children to gigs - so made sure that her work appealed to them, to an extent. Same thing as children’s films needing something for the adults who will sit through them as well.

    This is a vast, and growing market, around the world. Add in some genuine talent and a carefully crafted pubic image - billions of dollars flow.
    I think that's an outdated view. She was popular with teen girls when she was near that age herself, but her later albums are more mature in lyrical content. Her fanbase has grown up with her. Teen girls are more listening to something else now. Maybe Charli XCX, Sabrina Carpenter or Billie Eilish.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,737
    TimS said:

    Happy A level results day everyone.

    A very pleasant upside surprise in the S household today, after an early morning drive to school.

    Yeah, I've got 4 students today. 2 x French, 2 x Russian. I've got high expectations for all of them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,592
    DavidL said:

    0.3% growth in Q2 is somewhat better than expected after the growth in Q1 of 0.7%. I think that there was a lot of concern that spending had been brought forward to avoid Trump's insane tariffs and there would be a bigger reaction to that. Clearly there has been some but growth of 1% in H1, whilst hardly exciting, is probably a pass effort these days. Better news for Reeves than she has been getting on the government finances.

    Of course, an economy which is receiving a boost of £150bn additional spending from the government above what they are taking in taxes should be doing better but at least it is not doing worse.

    I agree that ramping up debt should be a stimulus to growth, but despite a much bigger deficit in the USA their growth in the first half of the year is just 0.6%, so not the whole story.

    The US budget deficit for the month of July was an eye-watering $291 billion, putting our own monthly deficit into perspective, even allowing for the relative size of populations.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,847

    Tax data allays fears of non-dom exodus from UK

    https://www.ft.com/content/14420f4a-06e0-40f6-b5b1-c4e0a36565f0

    HM Revenue & Customs payroll data has found no evidence to suggest more non-doms left Britain in response to Rachel Reeves’ 2024 Budget than official predictions, according to people briefed on the findings.

    [...]

    Reeves was told by the Office for Budget Responsibility to expect 25 per cent of non-doms with trusts to quit the country in response to the crackdown on their tax status, which began under the Conservatives and intensified when Reeves became chancellor last year.

    HMRC data now suggests this prediction is broadly correct, the people said, removing pressure on Reeves to reverse a Labour policy that is forecast to raise more than £4bn in 2026-27 and almost £6bn the following year.

    How quickly do you think these people organise and leave? It’s not a quick process for numerous reasons so the full effects won’t be known for at least another year.

    People have to decide where to move to - culturally similar like crown dependencies or zero tax in ME? They have to find homes to move to, schools for children, unwind businesses, start setting up new businesses and investments if the new home demands that as part of the deal, they have to decide whether to sell UK property holdings or rent them out hoping for a future gov that’s more friendly or a better market for high end property.

    Also, losing 25% of a tax base who also likely bring in business, are likely to invest in business in the UK and spend highly in the UK is not good.

    I would suggest holding off popping the champagne corks for a while.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,805

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Hang on. We were told Farage was a political genius who had massive effects on the country's politics despite not being an MP. The man who sold us the gilded land of Brexit. Now he was an utter irrelevance because he was not an MP?
    Was Farage responsible for tripling student tuition fees ?
    Was Farage responsible for triple lock pensions ?
    Was Farage responsible for unaffordable housing ?
    Was Farage responsible for the banks crashing ?
    Was Farage responsible for nimbyism ?
    Was Farage responsible for every infrastructure spending fiasco ?
    Was Farage responsible for defence cuts ?
    Was Farage responsible for social care not being reformed ?
    Was Farage responsible for lack of productivity growth ?
    Was Farage responsible for on line shopping destroying high streets ?
    Was Farage responsible for high energy costs ?
    Was Farage responsible for people wanting more welfarism for themselves ?
    Was Farage responsible for ageing demographics ?
    Was Farage responsible for the effects of AI on young graduates ?

    I don't want Farage anywhere near government as he would likely be disastrous but I'm not going to blame him for things which are varyingly caused by those who have been in government, the general behaviour of the British people, world events and underlying structural factors.

    There are enough Farages around the developed world at the moment to conclude he is very much a symptom rather than a cause. Albeit a pretty politically effective one.

    All countries have their far right. Indeed I was surprised and amused in Senegal last year to hear they’ve elected a far right MP (that’s how my interlocutors described him) to their parliament, who stands on a platform of opposing immigration from Guinea Conakry on the basis they sponge off the state and cause crime.

    It’s all down to that elephant chart of globalisation. The ultra rich have got richer everywhere, the poor and middle classes in developing countries have got much richer with the exception of the very poorest, and the working and lower middle classes in rich countries have relatively poorer. Meanwhile their populations have aged so fewer and fewer working age people find more and more pension entitlements and healthcare.

    British exceptionalism means we like to claim either Britain is uniquely broken or the greatest country on earth (or occasionally both) when the truth is we’re all largely in it together.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,592

    Dura_Ace said:

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Hang on. We were told Farage was a political genius who had massive effects on the country's politics despite not being an MP. The man who sold us the gilded land of Brexit. Now he was an utter irrelevance because he was not an MP?
    Was Farage responsible for tripling student tuition fees ?
    Was Farage responsible for triple lock pensions ?
    Was Farage responsible for unaffordable housing ?
    Was Farage responsible for the banks crashing ?
    Was Farage responsible for nimbyism ?
    Was Farage responsible for every infrastructure spending fiasco ?
    Was Farage responsible for defence cuts ?
    Was Farage responsible for social care not being reformed ?
    Was Farage responsible for lack of productivity growth ?
    Was Farage responsible for on line shopping destroying high streets ?
    Was Farage responsible for high energy costs ?
    Was Farage responsible for people wanting more welfarism for themselves ?
    Was Farage responsible for ageing demographics ?
    Was Farage responsible for the effects of AI on young graduates ?

    I don't want Farage anywhere near government as he would likely be disastrous but I'm not going to blame him for things which are varyingly caused by those who have been in government, the general behaviour of the British people, world events and underlying structural factors.

    He certainly made all of the above harder to remediate or ameliorate due to the economic vandalism of brexit.
    Amazing thing Brexit as it has somehow infected all the EU with the same problems which it has apparently caused in this country.

    Or perhaps Europe's problems are more fundamental and have sod all to do with Brexit and even less to do with Farage.
    So you agree those problems are not just down to Starmer and Reeves?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,837
    TimS said:

    Happy A level results day everyone.

    A very pleasant upside surprise in the S household today, after an early morning drive to school.

    I hated this day back in 1990 and 1991. (I took A level Maths a year early). Our school had a policy of posting the results out, rather than allowing collection on the Thursday, so I had to wait an extra day to get them, with the media banging on about it all day.

    And in other news my top 10 UK university is essentially closed for clearing to home students, and wide open for overseas. Money talks.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,276
    edited August 14

    Dura_Ace said:

    @stodge makes a great point about Reform and the likelihood of nobody wanting to work with them. I like Reform in that they are asking the right questions - why are things broken?

    The problem is that they have decided that there are two evils - foreigners and windfarms. Its hard to find mainstream politicians wanting to work with people allied to "send the brown people home before they rape my daughter" brigade. Which is a pity.

    If Reform could detach the racist far right and see them off into a Yaxley-Lennon party they would do much better.

    IMV Reform don't seem to be asking "why are things broken?"

    Instead, they have decided the causes: as you say, things like foreigners and windfarms, and are constructing a narrative that the 'broken' is caused by those two things. In other words, as is sadly common in politics, their narrative is based around ideology, not reality.

    When in reality, much that is 'broken' might be down to people like them. Or even, in the case of people like Farage, them directly.

    The new Guilty Men.
    Its incredible how someone who has never been in government and wasn't even an MP until a year ago is now blamed for so much by so many.

    How about we instead start with those people who have been in government and made the decisions.

    We can also add more generally, to individually varying extents, the British people.
    Hang on. We were told Farage was a political genius who had massive effects on the country's politics despite not being an MP. The man who sold us the gilded land of Brexit. Now he was an utter irrelevance because he was not an MP?
    Was Farage responsible for tripling student tuition fees ?
    Was Farage responsible for triple lock pensions ?
    Was Farage responsible for unaffordable housing ?
    Was Farage responsible for the banks crashing ?
    Was Farage responsible for nimbyism ?
    Was Farage responsible for every infrastructure spending fiasco ?
    Was Farage responsible for defence cuts ?
    Was Farage responsible for social care not being reformed ?
    Was Farage responsible for lack of productivity growth ?
    Was Farage responsible for on line shopping destroying high streets ?
    Was Farage responsible for high energy costs ?
    Was Farage responsible for people wanting more welfarism for themselves ?
    Was Farage responsible for ageing demographics ?
    Was Farage responsible for the effects of AI on young graduates ?

    I don't want Farage anywhere near government as he would likely be disastrous but I'm not going to blame him for things which are varyingly caused by those who have been in government, the general behaviour of the British people, world events and underlying structural factors.

    He certainly made all of the above harder to remediate or ameliorate due to the economic vandalism of brexit.
    Amazing thing Brexit as it has somehow infected all the EU with the same problems which it has apparently caused in this country.

    Or perhaps Europe's problems are more fundamental and have sod all to do with Brexit and even less to do with Farage.
    Lol, the NeverAcceptBrexit crew won't be able to accept this.

    The population at large have accepted it happened as it had to. Hilariously, I find it only gets brought up at dinner parties after the 4th bottle comes out, now. Often to tutting and disapproving looks from those who moved on years ago.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,964
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Can somebody explain Taylor Swift to me? I get she's really "nice" and works hard and all that, but she seems slightly robotic to me.

    In fact, maybe someone should explain Americans more broadly since I don't get their general need for whooping and jeering at everything:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedv5dy9v8lo

    I guess we are not the target audience. I have listened to some of her songs,, and they are pleasant enough if rather bland.

    She is a consumate professional, with strong work ethic and knows her business inside out. Getting and staying at the top of such a competitive field is quite some achievement. Just not my cup of tea.
    Suspect "pleasant if rather bland" is part of the point. In a world of a million niches, la Swift has cut through to be broadly liked. That's quite an achievement these days.
    If we make a comparison, whose role is Taylor Swift fulfilling in the market compared to 20, 40, 60 years ago. Albeit regionally / globally, not nationally.

    If we are looking for OK for parents whilst attractive to kids (I'm not assigning age groups - I get that wrong) - Spice Girls? Destiny's Child? Kylie? Abba?

    From 20 years ago - Jennifer Lopez.

    Amongst her contemporaries, Cyrus has a much better voice.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,801
    edited August 14
    A great video explaining all that is wrong with OSA,

    The Truth About Those Age Verification Pop-Ups
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCIo1IyykLQ

    One thing I didn't know, when you provide your ID, a number of big websites have outsourced this to Persona, a US based company who doesn't have to follow GDPR with your data....smashing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,539
    edited August 14
    I think the likeliest outcome for the Senedd elections next year is Reform win most seats but Labour stay in power after doing a deal with Plaid as Labour plus Plaid have more AMs than Reform and the Tories, with whichever of Labour or Plaid wins more seats providing the next First Minister.

    That could also be an omen for the next GE, while most polls give Reform most seats they are certainly well short of the 35-40%+ Farage would need to be on to make a clear majority likely, especially if LD and Green voters tactically vote Labour in the end in Labour held marginal seats to keep Reform out. It is perfectly possible therefore that at the next GE Reform win a majority in England, or Reform and the Tories combined at least win a majority in England but Labour stay in government as UK wide Labour and the SNP and Plaid combined win more seats in Scotland and Wales than Reform and the Tories combined do and with the LD seats won in England that gives Starmer enough MPs in a hung parliament to back him as PM over Farage
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