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Gordon Brown continues to annoy me – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,622
edited August 10 in General
Gordon Brown continues to annoy me – politicalbetting.com

70% of Britons would support raising taxes on online gambling, following Gordon Brown calling for an increase in the levies to fund efforts to tackle child poverty Support: 70%Oppose: 16%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,806
    I used to be a synchronised swimmer
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,112
    DougSeal said:

    I used to be a synchronised swimmer

    No longer ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    I smell a wheeze here, where the government have leveraged Gordon Brown history of wanting to focus upon child poverty to give plenty of cover to raising taxes on "sins" like gambling....again won't somebody think of the kids.

    Be interesting to see how they attempt to raise these taxes and what effect they will have on successful betting companies like Bet365. Will it be tax back on the putter placing the bet or the companies?

    Back in the day when a professional poker player, various European governments came up with absolutely moronic solutions to increasing tax revenue on gambling totally misunderstanding the way different gambling worked. In the big beautiful bill in the US, they have also implemented an absolute disaster of a tax on gambling, based upon seeing gambling as akin to investing in shares.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,752
    It’s going to happen and Reeves will be very happy to see those polling numbers . As low hanging fruit goes they’re almost touching the ground !
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,112
    edited August 10

    I smell a wheeze here, where the government have leveraged Gordon Brown history of wanting to focus upon child poverty to give plenty of cover to raising taxes on "sins" like gambling....again won't somebody think of the kids.

    This won't be the last such wheeze.
    Brown was a master at this kind of moral framing when Chancellor.

    This government is far more desperate for cash than was the Blair one, and will seize on any model that works.

    The Tories didn't have an answer to it back then, either. It's only when the wheels finally fall off that the logic looks suspect.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    Back in the day, the Greek tax on gambling hilariously backfired. You were to be taxed on daily profits based upon the balance in your account, so what they all did was if they had a winning day they would register for a high value poker tournament that wasn't scheduled to run until days into the future and that counted against their win / loss balance. Then they would deregister when they had a losing day.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,333
    It is shroud-waving.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,265
    The gambling industry is a licence to print money. Tax it properly – and turbocharge the fight against child poverty

    [snip the 90 per cent about starving children]

    Excluding the lottery, betting and gaming was an £11.5bn sector last year that incurred only £2.5bn in tax. As much as £3bn extra can be raised from taxing it properly. Remote gaming duty (effectively the tax on online slots games) is about 35% in the Netherlands, 40% in Austria, 50% in Pennsylvania and 57% in tax haven Delaware, two of the few US states where it is legal. Yet the same activity is taxed at just 21% in the UK, raising only £1bn. Applying a 50% levy – much less than the 80% tax on cigarettes and the 70% tax on whisky – would raise £1.6bn more. Raising the general betting duty on bookmakers’ profits from 15% to 25% could generate an additional £450m, after returning £100m as additional support to boost the horseracing industry.

    To achieve parity with their online equivalents, machine game duty payable on the revenue from in-person slot machines should also increase from 25% to 50%. According to IPPR estimates, this would raise an additional £880m.

    The government could then start to reduce child poverty. Unlike almost all other businesses, most gaming and betting is exempt from VAT. Its most addictive practices are responsible for social harm that costs the NHS and other public services more than £1bn a year.

    Gambling levies aren’t the only source of revenue that could pay to alleviate child poverty. But this should be one straightforward budget choice. The government can fulfil today’s unmet needs by taxing an undertaxed sector. Gambling won’t build our country for the next generation, but children, freed from poverty, will.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/aug/06/gambling-industry-profitable-tax-fight-child-poverty

    At least Gordon Brown does seem to recognise not all gambling is the same.

    The problem is that the wider debate has moved on. There is a lot more condemnation of gambling out there, and it may go the way of cigarettes if abolitionists win against the sin tax lobby.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 209
    This sort of tax, ia just the sort of thing Orwell would have warned cosmopolitan socialists against trying.

    His feel for what was important to the English working class : football, home, gardening and DIY, beer, gambling is beautifullly set out in the Lion and the Unicorn.

    Eighty years later it is surprising how little the archetype of the ordinary English worker AND the type of Cosmopolitan socialist he disliked (he might almost have had Starmer in his minds eye) have changed.

    Imo, the vibes of this tax go back much further than Orwell. It reeks of the type of Puritanism the English ultimately came to hate under Cromwell.

    Farrage is ofcourse very much a Cavalier and embodies a visceral opposition to this sort of thing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,112
    Russia invaded the Baltic states three times last century, occupying them for decades after WWII.
    It's not exactly surprising they're worried about a repeat.

    Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia may become Putin's next target - because of this, the leaders of the Baltic countries criticized any attempts to force Ukraine to cede territory, writes FT.
    https://x.com/front_ukrainian/status/1954123898296975865
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,291
    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,265
    Anyway, enough of Brown. The Telegraph has discovered the gig economy exploiting illegal workers is David Cameron's fault, with a revolving door between Downing Street, Uber and Deliveroo.

    How the gig economy conquered Britain and stoked the migration crisis
    Uber and Deliveroo have transformed the UK, but concerns are growing that they attract illegal workers

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/10/how-the-gig-economy-conquered-britain-and-stoked-the-migrat/ (£££)
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,786

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    UK or US media? If the former, then the reason is obvious I would think?
  • eekeek Posts: 30,888

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    Andrew has admitted it so can’t sue
  • TresTres Posts: 2,993

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    Virginia Giuffre
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,265

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    Andrew Lownie has just published a book about Andrew, which alleges not only randiness but also financial corruption. It was serialised in the Mail last week, and read by all the rest.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,817

    I smell a wheeze here, where the government have leveraged Gordon Brown history of wanting to focus upon child poverty to give plenty of cover to raising taxes on "sins" like gambling....again won't somebody think of the kids.

    Be interesting to see how they attempt to raise these taxes and what effect they will have on successful betting companies like Bet365. Will it be tax back on the putter placing the bet or the companies?

    Back in the day when a professional poker player, various European governments came up with absolutely moronic solutions to increasing tax revenue on gambling totally misunderstanding the way different gambling worked. In the big beautiful bill in the US, they have also implemented an absolute disaster of a tax on gambling, based upon seeing gambling as akin to investing in shares.

    In some countries, I think India and Brazil, they tax gambling firms by revenue. The result is that the RTP of casino games is worse, decreasing a player's chance of finishing ahead, and I can't imagine the betting odds are other than inferior to that of countries like the UK.

    The Government already has form with its mentally subnormal "but TEH kidz!" approach to VPN usage rising after the OSA disaster, so they'll bite on this. Not least because it means they can avoid breaking their own unnecessarily self-imposed promises on other taxes.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,479
    Nigelb said:

    Russia invaded the Baltic states three times last century, occupying them for decades after WWII.
    It's not exactly surprising they're worried about a repeat.

    Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia may become Putin's next target - because of this, the leaders of the Baltic countries criticized any attempts to force Ukraine to cede territory, writes FT.
    https://x.com/front_ukrainian/status/1954123898296975865

    And Tsarist Russia ruled Estonia etc from about 1710 onwards. Before that they were ruled by Sweden.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,479

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    Andrew Lownie has just published a book about Andrew, which alleges not only randiness but also financial corruption. It was serialised in the Mail last week, and read by all the rest.
    If it was in the Mail.......... truth.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,664

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    If you live by the sword of the state broadcaster & assorted media pumping out 24/7 pr coverage of Royal inc, you have to expect a few slashes from it. Pretty sure if the jowly dimwit hadn't chosen to do that interview with Emily Maitlis, coverage might be more restrained.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,806

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    In that specific list I think the answer is, in a U.K. context anyway, screamingly obvious.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10

    I smell a wheeze here, where the government have leveraged Gordon Brown history of wanting to focus upon child poverty to give plenty of cover to raising taxes on "sins" like gambling....again won't somebody think of the kids.

    Be interesting to see how they attempt to raise these taxes and what effect they will have on successful betting companies like Bet365. Will it be tax back on the putter placing the bet or the companies?

    Back in the day when a professional poker player, various European governments came up with absolutely moronic solutions to increasing tax revenue on gambling totally misunderstanding the way different gambling worked. In the big beautiful bill in the US, they have also implemented an absolute disaster of a tax on gambling, based upon seeing gambling as akin to investing in shares.

    In some countries, I think India and Brazil, they tax gambling firms by revenue. The result is that the RTP of casino games is worse, decreasing a player's chance of finishing ahead, and I can't imagine the betting odds are other than inferior to that of countries like the UK.

    The Government already has form with its mentally subnormal "but TEH kidz!" approach to VPN usage rising after the OSA disaster, so they'll bite on this. Not least because it means they can avoid breaking their own unnecessarily self-imposed promises on other taxes.
    And anybody who opposes it will be portrayed as a wife beater who loves nothing more than to see kids starve.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,093
    Good morning, everyone.

    What does "the government will end up implicating" mean, please?

    Is not implicating a word requiring an object as well as a subject?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    The Big Beautiful Bill tax on gambling is genius....bettors will only be allowed to deduct 90% of their losses against 100% of their gains in any given year. That means a person could win $100,000 in tournaments after paying $100,000 in entry fees, and yet still owe taxes on $10,000 of "income".

    For professional poker who specialises in tournaments these days they will have many millions in buy-ins. They could easily be on the hook for $100k's in taxes despite not making any money in a given year.

    Nobody seems to be fessing up to who actually put this in there. It wasn't in the original text from Trump.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043

    The gambling industry is a licence to print money. Tax it properly – and turbocharge the fight against child poverty

    [snip the 90 per cent about starving children]

    Excluding the lottery, betting and gaming was an £11.5bn sector last year that incurred only £2.5bn in tax. As much as £3bn extra can be raised from taxing it properly. Remote gaming duty (effectively the tax on online slots games) is about 35% in the Netherlands, 40% in Austria, 50% in Pennsylvania and 57% in tax haven Delaware, two of the few US states where it is legal. Yet the same activity is taxed at just 21% in the UK, raising only £1bn. Applying a 50% levy – much less than the 80% tax on cigarettes and the 70% tax on whisky – would raise £1.6bn more. Raising the general betting duty on bookmakers’ profits from 15% to 25% could generate an additional £450m, after returning £100m as additional support to boost the horseracing industry.

    To achieve parity with their online equivalents, machine game duty payable on the revenue from in-person slot machines should also increase from 25% to 50%. According to IPPR estimates, this would raise an additional £880m.

    The government could then start to reduce child poverty. Unlike almost all other businesses, most gaming and betting is exempt from VAT. Its most addictive practices are responsible for social harm that costs the NHS and other public services more than £1bn a year.

    Gambling levies aren’t the only source of revenue that could pay to alleviate child poverty. But this should be one straightforward budget choice. The government can fulfil today’s unmet needs by taxing an undertaxed sector. Gambling won’t build our country for the next generation, but children, freed from poverty, will.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/aug/06/gambling-industry-profitable-tax-fight-child-poverty

    At least Gordon Brown does seem to recognise not all gambling is the same.

    The problem is that the wider debate has moved on. There is a lot more condemnation of gambling out there, and it may go the way of cigarettes if abolitionists win against the sin tax lobby.

    Bad taxes on gambling which drive it underground, and would mostly benefit organised crime, are ones that focus on turnover or player winnings.

    Taxes on betting company profits are broadly fine and there is scope to increase taxes for the treasury. Perhaps halfway between current and Brown's proposed ones would be about right.

    Brown would have been involved in the move from turnover to profits taxation for betting in 2001, which has been a big success, and understands the detail better than most politicians.

    Despite making most of my money from betting I'm in favour. It undoubtedly causes many social ills, as well as providing some smaller social benefits and being an inevitable part of being human.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,267
    Tax these high street slot machines and online bingo.

    Leave out sports and political betting
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,387

    Anyway, enough of Brown. The Telegraph has discovered the gig economy exploiting illegal workers is David Cameron's fault, with a revolving door between Downing Street, Uber and Deliveroo.

    How the gig economy conquered Britain and stoked the migration crisis
    Uber and Deliveroo have transformed the UK, but concerns are growing that they attract illegal workers

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/10/how-the-gig-economy-conquered-britain-and-stoked-the-migrat/ (£££)

    Or as someone else said,

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters

    Creating a pile of half under-the-counter jobs that pay poorly by British standards but not badly globally was probably a mistake.

    Still, the other effect seems to have been to make some Venture Capitalists poorer, so swings and roundabouts.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,235
    MattW said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    What does "the government will end up implicating" mean, please?

    Is not implicating a word requiring an object as well as a subject?

    Autocorrect fail, it should be implementing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    MaxPB said:

    If the government wants to introduce a tax on gambling they should target mobile games, gacha and other games which use ultra low odds mystery boxes to get kids to spend money on nonsense as well as partnerships with popular streamers who run tweaked versions of said games to make it seem as though the odds of pulling a top tier character/skin is substantially higher than the truth.

    The level of fraud in that industry needs to be tackled and taxing them should be just a start.

    I was unsurprised that the OSA did absolutely nothing to stop predatory games publishers targeting kids with gambling mechanics, it's almost as of the government doesn't know what it's doing and doesn't realise what is actually poisoning kids brains right now.

    EA now only makes about 20% of it's revenue from the actual price of the game in shops. The rest comes from selling ultimate team packs for their sports games. Game publishers have ruthlessly exploited legal grey areas to get a generation of kids addicted to gambling mechanics and turn them into cash cows.

    The loot boxes and ultimate team packs are bad, but those free to play mobile games which are implemented in a way that it is a) play to win and b) cut your play time unless you pay more "coins" are pure cancer.

    I know somebody who works in that industry and the money for one of those games is predicated on a small number of people becoming so addicted they spend insane amounts of money like a gambling addict (but without any of the tools that gambling sites must have like time outs, deposit limits and affordability checks).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,093
    edited August 10

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    I saw a speculative analysis yesterday suggesting that Trump and Epstein saw Prince Andrew as their path to reaching high society - ie if you have a close relationship with a Royal Family member it is an "in" anywhere - "a great social climbing vector".

    And that since Andrew had some sort of sex mania, which I think separate accounts over the years probably support indicatively, that supplying girls was the way to get control over him.

    I think that's as close as I'll walk to that line here for the sake of PB. It's fairly sordid.

    It's from Michael Wolff, one of Donald Trump's biographers. It is embedded in a section of blog-style campaigning from Meidas Touch - where tbf one of their techniques is to keep mentioning everything they already know in order to keep the spotlight on their target issue, and try and drive their wedge deeper to open up cracks.

    To me given Trump & Epstein this could be perfectly possible, but it could also be Daily Mail type "sexing up" of a story that has been fed into the general media landscape.

    https://youtu.be/NLwYCCx03-4?t=224
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,265

    Anyway, enough of Brown. The Telegraph has discovered the gig economy exploiting illegal workers is David Cameron's fault, with a revolving door between Downing Street, Uber and Deliveroo.

    How the gig economy conquered Britain and stoked the migration crisis
    Uber and Deliveroo have transformed the UK, but concerns are growing that they attract illegal workers

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/10/how-the-gig-economy-conquered-britain-and-stoked-the-migrat/ (£££)

    Or as someone else said,

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters

    Creating a pile of half under-the-counter jobs that pay poorly by British standards but not badly globally was probably a mistake.

    Still, the other effect seems to have been to make some Venture Capitalists poorer, so swings and roundabouts.

    Call Me Dave says not me guv:-

    ‘Ludicrous’ to blame gig economy for mass migration, insists Lord Cameron
    The former PM denies that coalition policies created black market jobs that draw migrants to Britain

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/09/ludicrous-blame-gig-economy-mass-migration-david-cameron/ (£££)

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,817
    For those who saw my earlier message, bizarrely, the @ and " symbols are now working the right way again. I am perplexed.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,335

    Anyway, enough of Brown. The Telegraph has discovered the gig economy exploiting illegal workers is David Cameron's fault, with a revolving door between Downing Street, Uber and Deliveroo.

    How the gig economy conquered Britain and stoked the migration crisis
    Uber and Deliveroo have transformed the UK, but concerns are growing that they attract illegal workers

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/10/how-the-gig-economy-conquered-britain-and-stoked-the-migrat/ (£££)

    Or as someone else said,

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters

    Creating a pile of half under-the-counter jobs that pay poorly by British standards but not badly globally was probably a mistake.

    Still, the other effect seems to have been to make some Venture Capitalists poorer, so swings and roundabouts.

    Call Me Dave says not me guv:-

    ‘Ludicrous’ to blame gig economy for mass migration, insists Lord Cameron
    The former PM denies that coalition policies created black market jobs that draw migrants to Britain

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/09/ludicrous-blame-gig-economy-mass-migration-david-cameron/ (£££)

    Not taking responsibility for stuff is, of course, his forte
  • TresTres Posts: 2,993

    For those who saw my earlier message, bizarrely, the @ and " symbols are now working the right way again. I am perplexed.

    they are the other way round on mac keyboards to pcs
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,608

    The gambling industry is a licence to print money. Tax it properly – and turbocharge the fight against child poverty

    [snip the 90 per cent about starving children]

    Excluding the lottery, betting and gaming was an £11.5bn sector last year that incurred only £2.5bn in tax. As much as £3bn extra can be raised from taxing it properly. Remote gaming duty (effectively the tax on online slots games) is about 35% in the Netherlands, 40% in Austria, 50% in Pennsylvania and 57% in tax haven Delaware, two of the few US states where it is legal. Yet the same activity is taxed at just 21% in the UK, raising only £1bn. Applying a 50% levy – much less than the 80% tax on cigarettes and the 70% tax on whisky – would raise £1.6bn more. Raising the general betting duty on bookmakers’ profits from 15% to 25% could generate an additional £450m, after returning £100m as additional support to boost the horseracing industry.

    To achieve parity with their online equivalents, machine game duty payable on the revenue from in-person slot machines should also increase from 25% to 50%. According to IPPR estimates, this would raise an additional £880m.

    The government could then start to reduce child poverty. Unlike almost all other businesses, most gaming and betting is exempt from VAT. Its most addictive practices are responsible for social harm that costs the NHS and other public services more than £1bn a year.

    Gambling levies aren’t the only source of revenue that could pay to alleviate child poverty. But this should be one straightforward budget choice. The government can fulfil today’s unmet needs by taxing an undertaxed sector. Gambling won’t build our country for the next generation, but children, freed from poverty, will.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/aug/06/gambling-industry-profitable-tax-fight-child-poverty

    At least Gordon Brown does seem to recognise not all gambling is the same.

    The problem is that the wider debate has moved on. There is a lot more condemnation of gambling out there, and it may go the way of cigarettes if abolitionists win against the sin tax lobby.

    We should tax games of chance, but not of skill. Fortunately, political betting is clearly the latter.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,681

    Anyway, enough of Brown. The Telegraph has discovered the gig economy exploiting illegal workers is David Cameron's fault, with a revolving door between Downing Street, Uber and Deliveroo.

    How the gig economy conquered Britain and stoked the migration crisis
    Uber and Deliveroo have transformed the UK, but concerns are growing that they attract illegal workers

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/10/how-the-gig-economy-conquered-britain-and-stoked-the-migrat/ (£££)

    Or as someone else said,

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters

    Creating a pile of half under-the-counter jobs that pay poorly by British standards but not badly globally was probably a mistake.

    Still, the other effect seems to have been to make some Venture Capitalists poorer, so swings and roundabouts.

    Call Me Dave says not me guv:-

    ‘Ludicrous’ to blame gig economy for mass migration, insists Lord Cameron
    The former PM denies that coalition policies created black market jobs that draw migrants to Britain

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/09/ludicrous-blame-gig-economy-mass-migration-david-cameron/ (£££)

    Not taking responsibility for stuff is, of course, his forte
    cash
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,265

    A rare consensus on PB. Government should tax the type of gambling that PBers don't like, and leave the type of gambling that PBers do like alone.

    Precisely. Though gambling firms make the same distinction and try to move customers from bets where they might win to jazzed-up random number games which are more addictive and where losing is inevitable in the long term.

    One problem that bookmakers have is they've closed down anyone who might have a clue and sent them off to the black market, or grey market.

    America is seen as the new frontier. You may have seen during the week that Flutter (which owns Betfair and Paddy Power) announced hugely increased profits from there.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    If you come to this country and commit a crime, you don’t get to stay here. You will face deportation at the earliest opportunity.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1954452001745412221?s=19

    I think the courts have already shown that you might "face" deportation but it won't happen in many cases.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,501

    MaxPB said:

    If the government wants to introduce a tax on gambling they should target mobile games, gacha and other games which use ultra low odds mystery boxes to get kids to spend money on nonsense as well as partnerships with popular streamers who run tweaked versions of said games to make it seem as though the odds of pulling a top tier character/skin is substantially higher than the truth.

    The level of fraud in that industry needs to be tackled and taxing them should be just a start.

    I was unsurprised that the OSA did absolutely nothing to stop predatory games publishers targeting kids with gambling mechanics, it's almost as of the government doesn't know what it's doing and doesn't realise what is actually poisoning kids brains right now.

    EA now only makes about 20% of it's revenue from the actual price of the game in shops. The rest comes from selling ultimate team packs for their sports games. Game publishers have ruthlessly exploited legal grey areas to get a generation of kids addicted to gambling mechanics and turn them into cash cows.

    The loot boxes and ultimate team packs are bad, but those free to play mobile games which are implemented in a way that it is a) play to win and b) cut your play time unless you pay more "coins" are pure cancer.

    I know somebody who works in that industry and the money for one of those games is predicated on a small number of people becoming so addicted they spend insane amounts of money like a gambling addict (but without any of the tools that gambling sites must have like time outs, deposit limits and affordability checks).
    Pay to win is bad as well but it's not gambling, and yes there should be better regulations around screen time, the minimum amount of in-game premium currency that is winnable through free gameplay etc...

    More than social media, these types of games are turning a generation of kids (and adults) into mindless zombies tapping away at their phone screens. I worry that there are close to zero MPs that truly understand the level of damage they are inflicting on younger generations and are happy to just blindly accept what the gaming industry tells them about it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,608

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    The media in Britain is more focused on the high profile British person? The evidence against Andrew is a lot stronger?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,479
    edited August 10

    For those who saw my earlier message, bizarrely, the @ and " symbols are now working the right way again. I am perplexed.

    I've had trouble using the @ symbol in passwords. Sometimes its use is "unacceptable". Don't know why.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,093

    MattW said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    What does "the government will end up implicating" mean, please?

    Is not implicating a word requiring an object as well as a subject?

    Autocorrect fail, it should be implementing.
    We clearly need auto-uncorrect, too.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043

    A rare consensus on PB. Government should tax the type of gambling that PBers don't like, and leave the type of gambling that PBers do like alone.

    Not a consensus - at least one in favour of increasing taxes on sports betting.....as long as done in the right way.

    At the end of the day, some taxes are going to rise and it won't be Income Tax, Vat or Employee NI which doesn't leave a lot. Gambling gets a very generous regulatory environment here, even with a few minor recent restrictions in advertising, causes harm and should be taxed differently to "normal" business.

    Fuel duty is another obvious target, which again I support despite driving more than your average Joe.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,387

    MaxPB said:

    If the government wants to introduce a tax on gambling they should target mobile games, gacha and other games which use ultra low odds mystery boxes to get kids to spend money on nonsense as well as partnerships with popular streamers who run tweaked versions of said games to make it seem as though the odds of pulling a top tier character/skin is substantially higher than the truth.

    The level of fraud in that industry needs to be tackled and taxing them should be just a start.

    I was unsurprised that the OSA did absolutely nothing to stop predatory games publishers targeting kids with gambling mechanics, it's almost as of the government doesn't know what it's doing and doesn't realise what is actually poisoning kids brains right now.

    EA now only makes about 20% of it's revenue from the actual price of the game in shops. The rest comes from selling ultimate team packs for their sports games. Game publishers have ruthlessly exploited legal grey areas to get a generation of kids addicted to gambling mechanics and turn them into cash cows.

    The loot boxes and ultimate team packs are bad, but those free to play mobile games which are implemented in a way that it is a) play to win and b) cut your play time unless you pay more "coins" are pure cancer.

    I know somebody who works in that industry and the money for one of those games is predicated on a small number of people becoming so addicted they spend insane amounts of money like a gambling addict (but without any of the tools that gambling sites must have like time outs, deposit limits and affordability checks).
    What does it say about our society that That Sort Of Thing is a renumerative activity, let alone something that an organisation wishes to spend its days doing?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,501

    A rare consensus on PB. Government should tax the type of gambling that PBers don't like, and leave the type of gambling that PBers do like alone.

    Not necessarily, if the government decides to tax sports betting I can see the logic but it's really such a small part of the overall money spent gambling. Virtual slot machines, loot boxes in games and scratch cards are all substantially bigger markets. I think the worry is that they'll decide to come down hard on sports betting because it's easy and do nothing about the rest despite them all being far, far more damaging to society than sports betting.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,865

    I hold no brief for Prince Andrew, but why is it, when Epstein was publicly associated with Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Al Gore and Bill Gates, that every time Epstein comes back to public prominence, the media is wall-to-wall Randy Andy?

    The media in Britain is more focused on the high profile British person? The evidence against Andrew is a lot stronger?
    Never mind high profile, it's Royalty first, second and third. They'd still be all over him like flies on a Desert Rat's bully beef if the disclosure was that he had a model layout of the Southern Railway in his attic.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,806
    edited August 10
    Online gambling, with its high level of accessibility, anonymity, immersive interface and ease at which money can be spent, may increase rates of disordered gambling. Also I hated (are they still on?) those Ray Winstone ads in the middle of PL games. That’s not, admittedly, a basis for taxation policy, but it’s a start.

    EDIT: they were banned in 2018. Finger on the pulse Doug they call me…
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043

    For those who saw my earlier message, bizarrely, the @ and " symbols are now working the right way again. I am perplexed.

    I've had trouble using the @ symbol in passwords. Sometimes its use is "unacceptable". Don't know why.
    Black @s are associated with security hacking.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,093

    The Big Beautiful Bill tax on gambling is genius....bettors will only be allowed to deduct 90% of their losses against 100% of their gains in any given year. That means a person could win $100,000 in tournaments after paying $100,000 in entry fees, and yet still owe taxes on $10,000 of "income".

    For professional poker who specialises in tournaments these days they will have many millions in buy-ins. They could easily be on the hook for $100k's in taxes despite not making any money in a given year.

    Nobody seems to be fessing up to who actually put this in there. It wasn't in the original text from Trump.

    That's not THAT different from how George Osborne taxed landlords !

    In large measure, paid out business finance expenses (ie mortgage payments) were still taxed as if they were retained personal income. It's not quite like that, but there are similarities.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,479

    For those who saw my earlier message, bizarrely, the @ and " symbols are now working the right way again. I am perplexed.

    I've had trouble using the @ symbol in passwords. Sometimes its use is "unacceptable". Don't know why.
    Black @s are associated with security hacking.
    Really? I've raised the question with security experts and none have given me that advice.

    But it makes sense.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,664

    The gambling industry is a licence to print money. Tax it properly – and turbocharge the fight against child poverty

    [snip the 90 per cent about starving children]

    Excluding the lottery, betting and gaming was an £11.5bn sector last year that incurred only £2.5bn in tax. As much as £3bn extra can be raised from taxing it properly. Remote gaming duty (effectively the tax on online slots games) is about 35% in the Netherlands, 40% in Austria, 50% in Pennsylvania and 57% in tax haven Delaware, two of the few US states where it is legal. Yet the same activity is taxed at just 21% in the UK, raising only £1bn. Applying a 50% levy – much less than the 80% tax on cigarettes and the 70% tax on whisky – would raise £1.6bn more. Raising the general betting duty on bookmakers’ profits from 15% to 25% could generate an additional £450m, after returning £100m as additional support to boost the horseracing industry.

    To achieve parity with their online equivalents, machine game duty payable on the revenue from in-person slot machines should also increase from 25% to 50%. According to IPPR estimates, this would raise an additional £880m.

    The government could then start to reduce child poverty. Unlike almost all other businesses, most gaming and betting is exempt from VAT. Its most addictive practices are responsible for social harm that costs the NHS and other public services more than £1bn a year.

    Gambling levies aren’t the only source of revenue that could pay to alleviate child poverty. But this should be one straightforward budget choice. The government can fulfil today’s unmet needs by taxing an undertaxed sector. Gambling won’t build our country for the next generation, but children, freed from poverty, will.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/aug/06/gambling-industry-profitable-tax-fight-child-poverty

    At least Gordon Brown does seem to recognise not all gambling is the same.

    The problem is that the wider debate has moved on. There is a lot more condemnation of gambling out there, and it may go the way of cigarettes if abolitionists win against the sin tax lobby.

    We should tax games of chance, but not of skill. Fortunately, political betting is clearly the latter.
    I'd actually like to see tax breaks for Political Betting. Let's get the whole country involved in this great activity. Imagine the boost to our democracy if come the GE everybody has to not only decide how to vote but review the odds and assess where the value is.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,729

    The gambling industry is a licence to print money. Tax it properly – and turbocharge the fight against child poverty

    [snip the 90 per cent about starving children]

    Excluding the lottery, betting and gaming was an £11.5bn sector last year that incurred only £2.5bn in tax. As much as £3bn extra can be raised from taxing it properly. Remote gaming duty (effectively the tax on online slots games) is about 35% in the Netherlands, 40% in Austria, 50% in Pennsylvania and 57% in tax haven Delaware, two of the few US states where it is legal. Yet the same activity is taxed at just 21% in the UK, raising only £1bn. Applying a 50% levy – much less than the 80% tax on cigarettes and the 70% tax on whisky – would raise £1.6bn more. Raising the general betting duty on bookmakers’ profits from 15% to 25% could generate an additional £450m, after returning £100m as additional support to boost the horseracing industry.

    To achieve parity with their online equivalents, machine game duty payable on the revenue from in-person slot machines should also increase from 25% to 50%. According to IPPR estimates, this would raise an additional £880m.

    The government could then start to reduce child poverty. Unlike almost all other businesses, most gaming and betting is exempt from VAT. Its most addictive practices are responsible for social harm that costs the NHS and other public services more than £1bn a year.

    Gambling levies aren’t the only source of revenue that could pay to alleviate child poverty. But this should be one straightforward budget choice. The government can fulfil today’s unmet needs by taxing an undertaxed sector. Gambling won’t build our country for the next generation, but children, freed from poverty, will.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/aug/06/gambling-industry-profitable-tax-fight-child-poverty

    At least Gordon Brown does seem to recognise not all gambling is the same.

    The problem is that the wider debate has moved on. There is a lot more condemnation of gambling out there, and it may go the way of cigarettes if abolitionists win against the sin tax lobby.

    Gambling is 100% discretionary and essentially socially destructive so, of all of the things the government could tax, it seems like an excellent choice.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043

    For those who saw my earlier message, bizarrely, the @ and " symbols are now working the right way again. I am perplexed.

    I've had trouble using the @ symbol in passwords. Sometimes its use is "unacceptable". Don't know why.
    Black @s are associated with security hacking.
    Really? I've raised the question with security experts and none have given me that advice.

    But it makes sense.
    Not really, just a typical pb pun I'm afraid. Black hats are associated with security hacking.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,368
    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,112
    .

    A rare consensus on PB. Government should tax the type of gambling that PBers don't like, and leave the type of gambling that PBers do like alone.

    Seems a reasonable position to hold.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,093
    edited August 10

    Anyway, enough of Brown. The Telegraph has discovered the gig economy exploiting illegal workers is David Cameron's fault, with a revolving door between Downing Street, Uber and Deliveroo.

    How the gig economy conquered Britain and stoked the migration crisis
    Uber and Deliveroo have transformed the UK, but concerns are growing that they attract illegal workers

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/08/10/how-the-gig-economy-conquered-britain-and-stoked-the-migrat/ (£££)

    Or as someone else said,

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters

    Creating a pile of half under-the-counter jobs that pay poorly by British standards but not badly globally was probably a mistake.

    Still, the other effect seems to have been to make some Venture Capitalists poorer, so swings and roundabouts.

    Call Me Dave says not me guv:-

    ‘Ludicrous’ to blame gig economy for mass migration, insists Lord Cameron
    The former PM denies that coalition policies created black market jobs that draw migrants to Britain

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/09/ludicrous-blame-gig-economy-mass-migration-david-cameron/ (£££)

    Not taking responsibility for stuff is, of course, his forte
    Hmm. I was reading about the demolition job that Mr Cameron did on the Equality Act 2010 just after he came in to power - far more than I realised.

    He cut the budget for the EHRC by 75%, which seems to me to be substantially responsible for the mess of ineffective pottage we are left with now for EIAs, for example. Brandon Lewis: "time consuming, bureaucratic, tick-box exercises".

    https://www.ippr.org/articles/transforming-equality

    i was looking at it because the Daily Telegraph is having kittens about "Labour's attack on the middle classes", which is their translation of the Govt moving to undermine the practice of wealthy people buying houses near to good state schools, forcing prices up.

    The Govt are proposing to activate Section 1 of the Equality Act (already done one Wales / Scotland) which is that socioeconomic factors be taken into account by public sector bodies ... here that in practice good schools will have to consider how poor their potential pupils are, as well as how close they live. So getting in by buying an expensive house will be more difficult, and the Telegraph is cross.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/08/middle-class-children-shut-out-best-schools-equality-drive/
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,806
    edited August 10

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    “Ruse”. “Self Created”. “Reeves black hole”. “Addicted”.

    What prompts did you use for this one? Did you miss the “70%” bit?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,664
    DougSeal said:

    Online gambling, with its high level of accessibility, anonymity, immersive interface and ease at which money can be spent, may increase rates of disordered gambling. Also I hated (are they still on?) those Ray Winstone ads in the middle of PL games. That’s not, admittedly, a basis for taxation policy, but it’s a start.

    EDIT: they were banned in 2018. Finger on the pulse Doug they call me…

    Oh god, yes, those Winstone ads. That cockney geezer voice constantly going "Bet in plaaaay". Awful.

    PS: Community Shield today and I dreamt about it last night for some reason. Palace scored first (in the dream) but Liverpool came back to win 2/1.

    DYOR obviously.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    The worst betting adverts in recent times were the Ladbrokes ones that different betting "characters". I think they were banned in the end.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    Will anybody be shocked if they come up with a terrible way of raising the tax, pushes people on to grey market sites that take crypto and Denise Coates buggers off abroad, and as a result there no real additional tax is raised while having committed to spending billions more.
    Yes I'd be pretty surprised. New Labour introduced this regulatory environment that has made the UK the world leader in online gaming and the proposed changes are being driven by Brown, so it would be very surprising if they changed the system significantly rather than the rates.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,368
    DougSeal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    “Ruse”. “Self Created”. “Reeves black hole”. “Addicted”.

    What prompts did you use for this one?
    I do not use prompts, just a fair observation of Reeves job destroying Autumn Statement and surely nobody denies labour are addicted to spending

    The truth hurts at times
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,112
    Foreign criminals to face deportation after sentencing under new plans

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn72dknzepjo
    Under the proposals, those who are given fixed-term sentences could be deported straight away and would be barred from re-entering the UK.
    The decision over whether they go on to serve their sentences abroad would be up to the country they are sent to, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) told the BBC. In theory, this means that some criminals may be able to walk free upon arrival in their destination country.
    Foreign offenders make up around 12% percent of the prison population, with prison places costing £54,000 a year on average, according to the government.
    It says the new powers would save money for British taxpayers and protect the public.
    Those serving life sentences, such as terrorists and murderers, will serve their full prison sentence in the UK before being considered for deportation, it said.
    Once a custodial sentence is handed down by a judge, the decision over whether someone will be deported will fall to a prison governor, the MoJ said.
    Authorities would retain the power to keep criminals in custody if, for example, they were planning further crimes against the UK's interests or were seen as a danger to national security.
    The MoJ told the BBC that its definition of a foreign national is based on the conditions laid out in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act.
    If passed, the new powers could be applied to those already in prison, meaning the government could begin deportations immediately. As of January 2024, there were about 10,400 foreign nationals in the prison system...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    Will anybody be shocked if they come up with a terrible way of raising the tax, pushes people on to grey market sites that take crypto and Denise Coates buggers off abroad, and as a result there no real additional tax is raised while having committed to spending billions more.
    Yes I'd be pretty surprised. New Labour introduced this regulatory environment that has made the UK the world leader in online gaming and the proposed changes are being driven by Brown, so it would be very surprising if they changed the system significantly rather than the rates.
    The UK isn't the world leader in online gaming, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar are. Also, times have changed, Stake is absolutely massive now, bigger than Bet365 and still growing. They recently exited the UK, but change your VPN settings and they are happy to have your custom.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,368
    Nigelb said:

    Foreign criminals to face deportation after sentencing under new plans

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn72dknzepjo
    Under the proposals, those who are given fixed-term sentences could be deported straight away and would be barred from re-entering the UK.
    The decision over whether they go on to serve their sentences abroad would be up to the country they are sent to, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) told the BBC. In theory, this means that some criminals may be able to walk free upon arrival in their destination country.
    Foreign offenders make up around 12% percent of the prison population, with prison places costing £54,000 a year on average, according to the government.
    It says the new powers would save money for British taxpayers and protect the public.
    Those serving life sentences, such as terrorists and murderers, will serve their full prison sentence in the UK before being considered for deportation, it said.
    Once a custodial sentence is handed down by a judge, the decision over whether someone will be deported will fall to a prison governor, the MoJ said.
    Authorities would retain the power to keep criminals in custody if, for example, they were planning further crimes against the UK's interests or were seen as a danger to national security.
    The MoJ told the BBC that its definition of a foreign national is based on the conditions laid out in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act.
    If passed, the new powers could be applied to those already in prison, meaning the government could begin deportations immediately. As of January 2024, there were about 10,400 foreign nationals in the prison system...

    Farage is working and labour are following in fear of electoral disaster
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,681

    If you come to this country and commit a crime, you don’t get to stay here. You will face deportation at the earliest opportunity.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1954452001745412221?s=19

    I think the courts have already shown that you might "face" deportation but it won't happen in many cases.

    They just keep spouting bullshit rather than actually doing anything to fix anything. Make the Tories look good.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,316
    Thoughts on Ukraine, having been here for a week.

    We’re staying in the city of Zhytomr, a regional capital of around 250,000 people 130km West of Ukraine. I have to say that it’s been a good week, and the overwhelming atmosphere appears to be positive. Everything is open, and people appear to be going about their business as usual.

    The city seems much cleaner than before, I last visited two years’ ago, and there’s been what appear to be groups of regular people rather than council employees helping out with sweeping and cleaning. The roadworks crews even appear to be doing regular maintenance works rather than reacting to war-related damage. There’s very few vagrants around compared to most other European cities. Saturday night was busy in town, bars are restaurants overflowing on to the main street. It was however noticeable that around 2/3 of the partygoers were women. Sadly the young women here appear to like tattoos and funny lips as much as they do anywhere else these days.

    One of the observiations that has been continuously changing since I first visited here a decade ago, has been the cars, a trend that continues to this day, despite the war. Back then they were around 1/3 Ladas, 1/3 ‘80s and ‘90s Western cars, and 1/3 modern cars. Now there are very few Ladas still around, still about 1/3 ‘90s and ‘00s Western cars, but probably half are now modern cars and half of them from the last five years. There was apparently a scheme to donate old cars to the military, and taxes reduced on imports of new and nearly-new cars, to encourage the market and keep taxes flowing to the government. Buying a new car with your savings is seen as patriotic!

    When it comes to the general costs of living, it’s a cheap place to be. The exchange rate is continuing its slide and is now around 50 Grivnas to the pound, which is good news if you’re here to spend hard currency. A beer is £1.50-£2.50 in the bar, and a bottle of local or Georgian wine will give you change from a tenner. In a nice (not fancy) restaurant a burger will be £3-5 and a steak £5-10. We’re staying with family, but a quick Google shows a local 4* hotel at £50 a night, so you could probably stay here for £100/day/couple. Larger cities such as Lviv will be perhaps 50% more expensive, and Kiev a little more expensive again.

    (Part 1/2)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,093
    My fun video of the morning, on why traffic lights and junctions should focus on "people movement", not "vehicle movement".

    It's very good - and looks at the benefits of sophisticated programming .. Netherlands vs North America.

    https://youtu.be/knbVWXzL4-4?t=90
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,681

    The worst betting adverts in recent times were the Ladbrokes ones that different betting "characters". I think they were banned in the end.

    Harry F***ing Rednapp are the most annoying ever done.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,160

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    White the Tories just spent and borrowed.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,479
    edited August 10

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    Will anybody be shocked if they come up with a terrible way of raising the tax, pushes people on to grey market sites that take crypto and Denise Coates buggers off abroad, and as a result there no real additional tax is raised while having committed to spending billions more.
    The point of a Pigou tax is not necessarily to raise revenue but to reduce some harmful activity (or at least steer the market in that direction). If they raise £0 but put an end to the kind of activity that MaxPB has been describing, the benefits of such a tax are likely to still significantly outweigh the costs.

    And it's a bizarre observation from BigG. Does he really expect a Labour government to be low tax, low spend? They haven't even deviated much from the Conservatives anyway - the tax burden has increased from something like 37.1% to 38% in 2028-29. It's 47% in Denmark, 45% in France, 43% in Sweden, 40% in the Netherlands and Germany.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    Eabhal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    Will anybody be shocked if they come up with a terrible way of raising the tax, pushes people on to grey market sites that take crypto and Denise Coates buggers off abroad, and as a result there no real additional tax is raised while having committed to spending billions more.
    The point of a Pigou tax is not necessarily to raise revenue but to reduce some harmful activity (or at least steer the market in that direction). If they raise £0 but put an end to the kind of activity that MaxPB has been describing, the benefits of such a tax are likely to still significantly outweigh the costs.

    And it's a bizarre observation from BigG. Does he really expect a Labour government to be low tax, low spend? They haven't even deviated much from the Conservatives anyway - the tax burden has increased from something like 37.1% to 38% in 2028-29. It's 47% in Denmark, 45% in France, 43% in Sweden, 40% in the Netherlands.
    But that isn't the pitch. The pitch is raise taxes on gambling to stop the kids starving and they will commit to spending that money before it comes in.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,479

    Eabhal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    Will anybody be shocked if they come up with a terrible way of raising the tax, pushes people on to grey market sites that take crypto and Denise Coates buggers off abroad, and as a result there no real additional tax is raised while having committed to spending billions more.
    The point of a Pigou tax is not necessarily to raise revenue but to reduce some harmful activity (or at least steer the market in that direction). If they raise £0 but put an end to the kind of activity that MaxPB has been describing, the benefits of such a tax are likely to still significantly outweigh the costs.

    And it's a bizarre observation from BigG. Does he really expect a Labour government to be low tax, low spend? They haven't even deviated much from the Conservatives anyway - the tax burden has increased from something like 37.1% to 38% in 2028-29. It's 47% in Denmark, 45% in France, 43% in Sweden, 40% in the Netherlands.
    But that isn't the pitch, the pitch is raise taxes on gambling to stop the kids starving.
    That's just politics. All governments are forever pretending to hypothecate taxes but never do.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,479
    Nigelb said:

    Foreign criminals to face deportation after sentencing under new plans

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn72dknzepjo
    Under the proposals, those who are given fixed-term sentences could be deported straight away and would be barred from re-entering the UK.
    The decision over whether they go on to serve their sentences abroad would be up to the country they are sent to, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) told the BBC. In theory, this means that some criminals may be able to walk free upon arrival in their destination country.
    Foreign offenders make up around 12% percent of the prison population, with prison places costing £54,000 a year on average, according to the government.
    It says the new powers would save money for British taxpayers and protect the public.
    Those serving life sentences, such as terrorists and murderers, will serve their full prison sentence in the UK before being considered for deportation, it said.
    Once a custodial sentence is handed down by a judge, the decision over whether someone will be deported will fall to a prison governor, the MoJ said.
    Authorities would retain the power to keep criminals in custody if, for example, they were planning further crimes against the UK's interests or were seen as a danger to national security.
    The MoJ told the BBC that its definition of a foreign national is based on the conditions laid out in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act.
    If passed, the new powers could be applied to those already in prison, meaning the government could begin deportations immediately. As of January 2024, there were about 10,400 foreign nationals in the prison system...

    This has the look of something being an excellent idea in theory but presenting serious problems in practice.

    First thought; what if something is a crime in GB but not in wherever the criminal is being deported to? Or 'serious' here but not there?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,316

    If you come to this country and commit a crime, you don’t get to stay here. You will face deportation at the earliest opportunity.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1954452001745412221?s=19

    I think the courts have already shown that you might "face" deportation but it won't happen in many cases.

    Does anyone believe a single word coming out of his mouth?

    How many people have actually been deported this year, directly for committing crimes in the UK?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,681
    Eabhal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    Will anybody be shocked if they come up with a terrible way of raising the tax, pushes people on to grey market sites that take crypto and Denise Coates buggers off abroad, and as a result there no real additional tax is raised while having committed to spending billions more.
    The point of a Pigou tax is not necessarily to raise revenue but to reduce some harmful activity (or at least steer the market in that direction). If they raise £0 but put an end to the kind of activity that MaxPB has been describing, the benefits of such a tax are likely to still significantly outweigh the costs.

    And it's a bizarre observation from BigG. Does he really expect a Labour government to be low tax, low spend? They haven't even deviated much from the Conservatives anyway - the tax burden has increased from something like 37.1% to 38% in 2028-29. It's 47% in Denmark, 45% in France, 43% in Sweden, 40% in the Netherlands and Germany.
    Bet in general they will all be on much large salaries and better cost of living.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,265
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    If the government wants to introduce a tax on gambling they should target mobile games, gacha and other games which use ultra low odds mystery boxes to get kids to spend money on nonsense as well as partnerships with popular streamers who run tweaked versions of said games to make it seem as though the odds of pulling a top tier character/skin is substantially higher than the truth.

    The level of fraud in that industry needs to be tackled and taxing them should be just a start.

    I was unsurprised that the OSA did absolutely nothing to stop predatory games publishers targeting kids with gambling mechanics, it's almost as of the government doesn't know what it's doing and doesn't realise what is actually poisoning kids brains right now.

    EA now only makes about 20% of it's revenue from the actual price of the game in shops. The rest comes from selling ultimate team packs for their sports games. Game publishers have ruthlessly exploited legal grey areas to get a generation of kids addicted to gambling mechanics and turn them into cash cows.

    The loot boxes and ultimate team packs are bad, but those free to play mobile games which are implemented in a way that it is a) play to win and b) cut your play time unless you pay more "coins" are pure cancer.

    I know somebody who works in that industry and the money for one of those games is predicated on a small number of people becoming so addicted they spend insane amounts of money like a gambling addict (but without any of the tools that gambling sites must have like time outs, deposit limits and affordability checks).
    Pay to win is bad as well but it's not gambling, and yes there should be better regulations around screen time, the minimum amount of in-game premium currency that is winnable through free gameplay etc...

    More than social media, these types of games are turning a generation of kids (and adults) into mindless zombies tapping away at their phone screens. I worry that there are close to zero MPs that truly understand the level of damage they are inflicting on younger generations and are happy to just blindly accept what the gaming industry tells them about it.
    Speaking of blind acceptance, it is also bad for children's eyesight.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10

    Nigelb said:

    Foreign criminals to face deportation after sentencing under new plans

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn72dknzepjo
    Under the proposals, those who are given fixed-term sentences could be deported straight away and would be barred from re-entering the UK.
    The decision over whether they go on to serve their sentences abroad would be up to the country they are sent to, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) told the BBC. In theory, this means that some criminals may be able to walk free upon arrival in their destination country.
    Foreign offenders make up around 12% percent of the prison population, with prison places costing £54,000 a year on average, according to the government.
    It says the new powers would save money for British taxpayers and protect the public.
    Those serving life sentences, such as terrorists and murderers, will serve their full prison sentence in the UK before being considered for deportation, it said.
    Once a custodial sentence is handed down by a judge, the decision over whether someone will be deported will fall to a prison governor, the MoJ said.
    Authorities would retain the power to keep criminals in custody if, for example, they were planning further crimes against the UK's interests or were seen as a danger to national security.
    The MoJ told the BBC that its definition of a foreign national is based on the conditions laid out in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act.
    If passed, the new powers could be applied to those already in prison, meaning the government could begin deportations immediately. As of January 2024, there were about 10,400 foreign nationals in the prison system...

    This has the look of something being an excellent idea in theory but presenting serious problems in practice.

    First thought; what if something is a crime in GB but not in wherever the criminal is being deported to? Or 'serious' here but not there?
    They have already admitted this won't be attached to any guarantee that they imprisoned in their country of origin, it will be totally up to that country.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    Will anybody be shocked if they come up with a terrible way of raising the tax, pushes people on to grey market sites that take crypto and Denise Coates buggers off abroad, and as a result there no real additional tax is raised while having committed to spending billions more.
    The point of a Pigou tax is not necessarily to raise revenue but to reduce some harmful activity (or at least steer the market in that direction). If they raise £0 but put an end to the kind of activity that MaxPB has been describing, the benefits of such a tax are likely to still significantly outweigh the costs.

    And it's a bizarre observation from BigG. Does he really expect a Labour government to be low tax, low spend? They haven't even deviated much from the Conservatives anyway - the tax burden has increased from something like 37.1% to 38% in 2028-29. It's 47% in Denmark, 45% in France, 43% in Sweden, 40% in the Netherlands.
    But that isn't the pitch, the pitch is raise taxes on gambling to stop the kids starving.
    That's just politics. All governments are forever pretending to hypothecate taxes but never do.
    I am unsurprised, the anti-gambling pressure groups have had good connections to Labour for many years and very good at PR.

    In fact I posted this on here when Labour got in that I thought they would start to crack down on "sins" like gambling. Pretty sure fuel duty will be in for a big hike under the guise of greening the economy.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,372
    Not sure about air pollution benefits. What about all the smoke from the burning at the protests?

    I'm more annoyed by the ancient Rule 4. Every single time I win on the horses I seem to be cut by at least 20%.

    I feel sorry for Brown, tries to make his mission reducing child poverty, hated. Clegg paid millions for encouraging teen suicide etc, people like him.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,316

    I smell a wheeze here, where the government have leveraged Gordon Brown history of wanting to focus upon child poverty to give plenty of cover to raising taxes on "sins" like gambling....again won't somebody think of the kids.

    Be interesting to see how they attempt to raise these taxes and what effect they will have on successful betting companies like Bet365. Will it be tax back on the putter placing the bet or the companies?

    Back in the day when a professional poker player, various European governments came up with absolutely moronic solutions to increasing tax revenue on gambling totally misunderstanding the way different gambling worked. In the big beautiful bill in the US, they have also implemented an absolute disaster of a tax on gambling, based upon seeing gambling as akin to investing in shares.

    In some countries, I think India and Brazil, they tax gambling firms by revenue. The result is that the RTP of casino games is worse, decreasing a player's chance of finishing ahead, and I can't imagine the betting odds are other than inferior to that of countries like the UK.

    The Government already has form with its mentally subnormal "but TEH kidz!" approach to VPN usage rising after the OSA disaster, so they'll bite on this. Not least because it means they can avoid breaking their own unnecessarily self-imposed promises on other taxes.
    As always, they also appear to think that a large increase in gambling tax can’t lead to significant changes in behaviour.

    Arthur Laffer wants his curve back!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,806

    DougSeal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    “Ruse”. “Self Created”. “Reeves black hole”. “Addicted”.

    What prompts did you use for this one?
    I do not use prompts, just a fair observation of Reeves job destroying Autumn Statement and surely nobody denies labour are addicted to spending

    The truth hurts at times
    But literally none of this is true! You are telling reflexive untruths

    1. A “ruse” is a trick, a deception. This article is an op-ed by a former leader, not even policy yet, it may never even be policy, which sets out (if adopted) exactly what they would do. How exactly is it a “ruse”?

    2. “…not that popular according to polls…” is demonstrably untrue given the thread header confirms the (proposed) policy itself polls at 70% support.

    3. “…self created black hole of £40 billion…” which you later go on to suggest was caused by the 30 October 2024 autumn statement. But this figure was being discussed BEFORE the Autumn statement. Here’s an article mentioning it 2 weeks earlier-

    https://news.sky.com/story/chancellor-rachel-reeves-looking-to-find-40bn-in-budget-13234210

    So when did Reeves create this “black hole” before the Autumn statement? Why was she looking to fill it? What economic levers did she disasterously pull between 4 July and October 2024 to create this oft quoted figure?

    5. As for “addicted”…what do you want me to say here? The original sin of this government (winter fuel allowance) that precipitated its rapid fall in the polls was a significant spending cut.

    I’m sorry but none of your post stood up to any scrutiny at all.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,479

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    Will anybody be shocked if they come up with a terrible way of raising the tax, pushes people on to grey market sites that take crypto and Denise Coates buggers off abroad, and as a result there no real additional tax is raised while having committed to spending billions more.
    The point of a Pigou tax is not necessarily to raise revenue but to reduce some harmful activity (or at least steer the market in that direction). If they raise £0 but put an end to the kind of activity that MaxPB has been describing, the benefits of such a tax are likely to still significantly outweigh the costs.

    And it's a bizarre observation from BigG. Does he really expect a Labour government to be low tax, low spend? They haven't even deviated much from the Conservatives anyway - the tax burden has increased from something like 37.1% to 38% in 2028-29. It's 47% in Denmark, 45% in France, 43% in Sweden, 40% in the Netherlands.
    But that isn't the pitch, the pitch is raise taxes on gambling to stop the kids starving.
    That's just politics. All governments are forever pretending to hypothecate taxes but never do.
    I am unsurprised, the anti-gambling pressure groups have had good connections to Labour for many years and very good at PR.

    In fact I posted this on here when Labour got in that I thought they would start to crack down on "sins" like gambling.
    Methodists were traditionally very important to Labour. And opposed to gambling.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,729

    A rare consensus on PB. Government should tax the type of gambling that PBers don't like, and leave the type of gambling that PBers do like alone.

    I think they should tax all gambling. It's 100% discretionary and the information asymmetry between the punter and the bookie combined with universal accessibility via apps mean it's socially destructive in a way that it has never been before.

    Can any single person be cashflow positive betting on EPL or the loosely motorsports based soap opera for middle aged white men? I doubt it these days,
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,026
    I just bought a handsome William IV mahogany table for £129

    wtf. A friend tells me “antique prices have collapsed”. “Especially for old brown stuff”

    Is this true? It seems true from this deal

    OTOH I might get it and find it collapses on arrival
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,387
    Sandpit said:

    I smell a wheeze here, where the government have leveraged Gordon Brown history of wanting to focus upon child poverty to give plenty of cover to raising taxes on "sins" like gambling....again won't somebody think of the kids.

    Be interesting to see how they attempt to raise these taxes and what effect they will have on successful betting companies like Bet365. Will it be tax back on the putter placing the bet or the companies?

    Back in the day when a professional poker player, various European governments came up with absolutely moronic solutions to increasing tax revenue on gambling totally misunderstanding the way different gambling worked. In the big beautiful bill in the US, they have also implemented an absolute disaster of a tax on gambling, based upon seeing gambling as akin to investing in shares.

    In some countries, I think India and Brazil, they tax gambling firms by revenue. The result is that the RTP of casino games is worse, decreasing a player's chance of finishing ahead, and I can't imagine the betting odds are other than inferior to that of countries like the UK.

    The Government already has form with its mentally subnormal "but TEH kidz!" approach to VPN usage rising after the OSA disaster, so they'll bite on this. Not least because it means they can avoid breaking their own unnecessarily self-imposed promises on other taxes.
    As always, they also appear to think that a large increase in gambling tax can’t lead to significant changes in behaviour.

    Arthur Laffer wants his curve back!
    The Laffer Curve has two fixed points with who knows what in-between. For private schools, adding VAT looks like playing out pretty revenue-positive, and I'd be confident that this will be the same. Less gambling, but still a decent seam of good for government to mine.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    “Ruse”. “Self Created”. “Reeves black hole”. “Addicted”.

    What prompts did you use for this one?
    I do not use prompts, just a fair observation of Reeves job destroying Autumn Statement and surely nobody denies labour are addicted to spending

    The truth hurts at times
    But literally none of this is true! You are telling reflexive untruths

    1. A “ruse” is a trick, a deception. This article is an op-ed by a former leader, not even policy yet, it may never even be policy, which sets out (if adopted) exactly what they would do. How exactly is it a “ruse”?

    2. “…not that popular according to polls…” is demonstrably untrue given the thread header confirms the (proposed) policy itself polls at 70% support.

    3. “…self created black hole of £40 billion…” which you later go on to suggest was caused by the 30 October 2024 autumn statement. But this figure was being discussed BEFORE the Autumn statement. Here’s an article mentioning it 2 weeks earlier-

    https://news.sky.com/story/chancellor-rachel-reeves-looking-to-find-40bn-in-budget-13234210

    So when did Reeves create this “black hole” before the Autumn statement? Why was she looking to fill it? What economic levers did she disasterously pull between 4 July and October 2024 to create this oft quoted figure?

    5. As for “addicted”…what do you want me to say here? The original sin of this government (winter fuel allowance) that precipitated its rapid fall in the polls was a significant spending cut.

    I’m sorry but none of your post stood up to any scrutiny at all.
    You are wrong about 3). Its based upon a new report by NIESR, that says against the new government targets set in their budget they will miss by £40bn by the end of the parliament.

    The Government is not on track to meet its ‘stability rule’, with our forecast suggesting a current deficit of £41.2 billion in the fiscal year 2029-30

    https://niesr.ac.uk/publications/uk-economic-outlook-chancellors-trilemma?type=uk-economic-outlook

    This is what Big_G_NorthWales is referring it and it has been widely reported across the media over the past week.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,865
    Leon said:

    I just bought a handsome William IV mahogany table for £129

    wtf. A friend tells me “antique prices have collapsed”. “Especially for old brown stuff”

    Is this true? It seems true from this deal

    OTOH I might get it and find it collapses on arrival

    Houses smaller, more people renting, more old people dying and their houses being cleared out onto the market ...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,333
    Dura_Ace said:

    A rare consensus on PB. Government should tax the type of gambling that PBers don't like, and leave the type of gambling that PBers do like alone.

    I think they should tax all gambling. It's 100% discretionary and the information asymmetry between the punter and the bookie combined with universal accessibility via apps mean it's socially destructive in a way that it has never been before.

    Can any single person be cashflow positive betting on EPL or the loosely motorsports based soap opera for middle aged white men? I doubt it these days,
    I’m cash-positive, betting on politics. So is anyone who does their research.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,026
    Sandpit said:

    Thoughts on Ukraine, having been here for a week.

    We’re staying in the city of Zhytomr, a regional capital of around 250,000 people 130km West of Ukraine. I have to say that it’s been a good week, and the overwhelming atmosphere appears to be positive. Everything is open, and people appear to be going about their business as usual.

    The city seems much cleaner than before, I last visited two years’ ago, and there’s been what appear to be groups of regular people rather than council employees helping out with sweeping and cleaning. The roadworks crews even appear to be doing regular maintenance works rather than reacting to war-related damage. There’s very few vagrants around compared to most other European cities. Saturday night was busy in town, bars are restaurants overflowing on to the main street. It was however noticeable that around 2/3 of the partygoers were women. Sadly the young women here appear to like tattoos and funny lips as much as they do anywhere else these days.

    One of the observiations that has been continuously changing since I first visited here a decade ago, has been the cars, a trend that continues to this day, despite the war. Back then they were around 1/3 Ladas, 1/3 ‘80s and ‘90s Western cars, and 1/3 modern cars. Now there are very few Ladas still around, still about 1/3 ‘90s and ‘00s Western cars, but probably half are now modern cars and half of them from the last five years. There was apparently a scheme to donate old cars to the military, and taxes reduced on imports of new and nearly-new cars, to encourage the market and keep taxes flowing to the government. Buying a new car with your savings is seen as patriotic!

    When it comes to the general costs of living, it’s a cheap place to be. The exchange rate is continuing its slide and is now around 50 Grivnas to the pound, which is good news if you’re here to spend hard currency. A beer is £1.50-£2.50 in the bar, and a bottle of local or Georgian wine will give you change from a tenner. In a nice (not fancy) restaurant a burger will be £3-5 and a steak £5-10. We’re staying with family, but a quick Google shows a local 4* hotel at £50 a night, so you could probably stay here for £100/day/couple. Larger cities such as Lviv will be perhaps 50% more expensive, and Kiev a little more expensive again.

    (Part 1/2)

    Stay safe

    Also - can you get them to come clean up Britain? Thanx
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,806

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    “Ruse”. “Self Created”. “Reeves black hole”. “Addicted”.

    What prompts did you use for this one?
    I do not use prompts, just a fair observation of Reeves job destroying Autumn Statement and surely nobody denies labour are addicted to spending

    The truth hurts at times
    But literally none of this is true! You are telling reflexive untruths

    1. A “ruse” is a trick, a deception. This article is an op-ed by a former leader, not even policy yet, it may never even be policy, which sets out (if adopted) exactly what they would do. How exactly is it a “ruse”?

    2. “…not that popular according to polls…” is demonstrably untrue given the thread header confirms the (proposed) policy itself polls at 70% support.

    3. “…self created black hole of £40 billion…” which you later go on to suggest was caused by the 30 October 2024 autumn statement. But this figure was being discussed BEFORE the Autumn statement. Here’s an article mentioning it 2 weeks earlier-

    https://news.sky.com/story/chancellor-rachel-reeves-looking-to-find-40bn-in-budget-13234210

    So when did Reeves create this “black hole” before the Autumn statement? Why was she looking to fill it? What economic levers did she disasterously pull between 4 July and October 2024 to create this oft quoted figure?

    5. As for “addicted”…what do you want me to say here? The original sin of this government (winter fuel allowance) that precipitated its rapid fall in the polls was a significant spending cut.

    I’m sorry but none of your post stood up to any scrutiny at all.
    You are wrong about 3). Its based upon a new report by NIESR, that says against the new government targets set in their budget they will miss by £40bn by the end of the parliament.

    The Government is not on track to meet its ‘stability rule’, with our forecast suggesting a current deficit of £41.2 billion in the fiscal year 2029-30

    https://niesr.ac.uk/publications/uk-economic-outlook-chancellors-trilemma?type=uk-economic-outlook

    This is what Big_G_NorthWales is referring it and it has been widely reported across the media over the past week.
    I’ll leave it to Big G to confirm exactly which of these many £40B figures he’s referring to.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    Dura_Ace said:

    A rare consensus on PB. Government should tax the type of gambling that PBers don't like, and leave the type of gambling that PBers do like alone.

    I think they should tax all gambling. It's 100% discretionary and the information asymmetry between the punter and the bookie combined with universal accessibility via apps mean it's socially destructive in a way that it has never been before.

    Can any single person be cashflow positive betting on EPL or the loosely motorsports based soap opera for middle aged white men? I doubt it these days,
    Tony Bloom and Matthew Benham wave from their massive yachts....

    But in general, as a former professional gambler, I tell people betting on things like the EPL is incredibly difficult as the market is extremely efficient. Tony Bloom has done it with a big team of maths PhDs. Also, if you do have an edge, getting money on is the hardest part. Haralabos Voulgaris has amazing stories of the lengths he had to go to actually bet on sports as nobody would take his money.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,026
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    I just bought a handsome William IV mahogany table for £129

    wtf. A friend tells me “antique prices have collapsed”. “Especially for old brown stuff”

    Is this true? It seems true from this deal

    OTOH I might get it and find it collapses on arrival

    Houses smaller, more people renting, more old people dying and their houses being cleared out onto the market ...
    Is that it? That confirms and explains what my friend says

    “People don’t want antiques, the market is saturated by eBay and Facebook and Etsy”

    He reckons my table could easily have cost 4x this 15-20 years ago
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,776
    edited August 10
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    “Ruse”. “Self Created”. “Reeves black hole”. “Addicted”.

    What prompts did you use for this one?
    I do not use prompts, just a fair observation of Reeves job destroying Autumn Statement and surely nobody denies labour are addicted to spending

    The truth hurts at times
    But literally none of this is true! You are telling reflexive untruths

    1. A “ruse” is a trick, a deception. This article is an op-ed by a former leader, not even policy yet, it may never even be policy, which sets out (if adopted) exactly what they would do. How exactly is it a “ruse”?

    2. “…not that popular according to polls…” is demonstrably untrue given the thread header confirms the (proposed) policy itself polls at 70% support.

    3. “…self created black hole of £40 billion…” which you later go on to suggest was caused by the 30 October 2024 autumn statement. But this figure was being discussed BEFORE the Autumn statement. Here’s an article mentioning it 2 weeks earlier-

    https://news.sky.com/story/chancellor-rachel-reeves-looking-to-find-40bn-in-budget-13234210

    So when did Reeves create this “black hole” before the Autumn statement? Why was she looking to fill it? What economic levers did she disasterously pull between 4 July and October 2024 to create this oft quoted figure?

    5. As for “addicted”…what do you want me to say here? The original sin of this government (winter fuel allowance) that precipitated its rapid fall in the polls was a significant spending cut.

    I’m sorry but none of your post stood up to any scrutiny at all.
    You are wrong about 3). Its based upon a new report by NIESR, that says against the new government targets set in their budget they will miss by £40bn by the end of the parliament.

    The Government is not on track to meet its ‘stability rule’, with our forecast suggesting a current deficit of £41.2 billion in the fiscal year 2029-30

    https://niesr.ac.uk/publications/uk-economic-outlook-chancellors-trilemma?type=uk-economic-outlook

    This is what Big_G_NorthWales is referring it and it has been widely reported across the media over the past week.
    I’ll leave it to Big G to confirm exactly which of these many £40B figures he’s referring to.
    Just say you got it wrong. Everybody does. There is no shame in it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,368
    edited August 10

    Good morning

    Another labour ruse of raising taxes and then spending them on another spending commitment (which by the way is not popular according to polls) and at the same leaving the entirely 'self created Reeves black hole of 40 billion' untouched

    Labour are addicted to taxing and spending, and just cannot help themselves

    White the Tories just spent and borrowed.
    Unprecented Covid and war in Ukraine and labour would have spent even more:

    How much was spent on Covid-19 measures?

    The Covid-19 pandemic resulted in very high levels of public spending. Current estimates of the total cost of government Covid-19 measures range from about £310 billion to £410 billion. This is the equivalent of about £4,600 to £6,100 per person in the UK.

    Official figures show that spending in 2020/21 was about £179 billion higher than had been planned before the pandemic for that year.

    Source: National Audit Office and HM Treasury (NAO/HMT), Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), and International Monetary Fund (IMF); see section 1.1 of this briefing for details. Calculated using UK population estimate from Office for National Statistics (ONS), Population estimates for the UK, England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland: mid-2020, 25 June 2021
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,316
    edited August 10

    The Big Beautiful Bill tax on gambling is genius....bettors will only be allowed to deduct 90% of their losses against 100% of their gains in any given year. That means a person could win $100,000 in tournaments after paying $100,000 in entry fees, and yet still owe taxes on $10,000 of "income".

    For professional poker who specialises in tournaments these days they will have many millions in buy-ins. They could easily be on the hook for $100k's in taxes despite not making any money in a given year.

    Nobody seems to be fessing up to who actually put this in there. It wasn't in the original text from Trump.

    This HuffPost article says it came out of the Senate Finance Committee.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gambling-tax-deduction-trump-bill_n_686dabede4b07e11dd9982a8

    The suggestion has been that it’s the work of the Senate “Parliamentarian”, the civil servant that drafts the legislative text.

    As with pretty much every American Bill, no-one actually reads the several hundred pages of text that get released only a day or two before it’s up for a vote.
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