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The latest general election betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,600
edited July 29 in General
The latest general election betting – politicalbetting.com

I think we might be approaching the point where there might be some value in backing in the Tories which is essentially a bet on Reform exploding due to scandal, internal contradictions, Farage quitting, etc but we’re not at that point yet.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,087
    First!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,367
    edited July 29
    Second!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,087
    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,374
    Is there any arbitrage between this and next PM betting? Reform UK could win most seats in a hung Parliament, but find coalition partners don't exist.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,576

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    Kier Starmer (and rachel from accounts) has done a lot of the heavy lifting there already.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    As each day goes by the chances of Tories resisting Reform diminishes. The latter are still getting all the psssion on the right, and implosion is possible to be sure but not a guarantee even with Farage. This is Farage mark II, the MP.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    You could be right but then your extrapolation of data does regularly wishcast the Tories to a swift return to government.

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    "It's not YOUR Party! It's MY Party!" :lol:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    spudgfsh said:

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    Kier Starmer (and rachel from accounts) has done a lot of the heavy lifting there already.
    PB pedantry alert!


    Rachel from accounts please. Proper nouns start with a capital letter.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,271
    edited July 29
    Have to agree with the header, there has to be a fair chance of Reform crashing & burning before the GE, and if Kemi sticks to her tactic of pitting fiscal responsibility against Labours spend, spend, spend they could edge it at decent odds, 6.8 most seats/19 Con Maj
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    "It's not YOUR Party! It's MY Party!" :lol:
    ...and I'll cry if I want to.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,263
    If you're looking to where the Conservatives can hold out against Reform, I think it would be upscale eurosceptic seats where the Lib Dems can't make much headway. Some such seats are quite rural (eg North Yorkshire, Scottish borders), some have large Jewish or Indian populations (eg parts of Greater London, and Hertsmere).

    I'd say there are roughly 40 such seats.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,087

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    You could be right but then your extrapolation of data does regularly wishcast the Tories to a swift return to government.

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
    I could be right in what? The post doesnt have any projections in it.
    What wishcasting? Where? Stop making up bullshit.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,367

    ...Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.

    2017 is on the phone. They want to talk to you. :)
  • isamisam Posts: 42,271
    edited July 29
    Just when Nigel Farage and his tiny parliamentary party were beginning to be exposed as shrill and clueless, Peter Kyle, one of the most promising cabinet ministers, handed them a free gift.

    By saying that the Reform leader is on the side of “people like Jimmy Savile”, Kyle destroys his own arguments for the Online Safety Act. The attempt to link Farage with a notorious child sex abuser is gratuitous and offensive. It makes Kyle seem desperate and allows Farage to pose as the wronged party. Farage’s criticisms of the act seem more credible after Kyle’s outburst than before.

    It is surprising that Kyle has chosen to use this slur when Labour people were so indignant – and rightly so – when Boris Johnson used it against Keir Starmer. That was when Johnson was desperate: Sue Gray’s report on lockdown parties in Downing Street had just been published, and Johnson wanted some way of deflecting attention.

    His attack on Starmer had nothing to do with Gray’s report. It was an aside referring to Starmer’s time as director of public prosecutions, during which, Johnson said, “he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out”.

    But it was more relevant than Kyle’s attack on Farage. It is factually correct that the Crown Prosecution Service failed to prosecute Savile when Starmer was in charge, and it is unclear whether it could have done more to bring Savile to justice at the time.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/peter-kyle-jimmy-savile-comment-nigel-farage-online-safety-bill-b2797944.html
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,698

    spudgfsh said:

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    Kier Starmer (and rachel from accounts) has done a lot of the heavy lifting there already.
    PB pedantry alert!


    Rachel from accounts please. Proper nouns start with a capital letter.
    PB further pedantry: Accounts is also quite likely to be a proper name.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    ...

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    You could be right but then your extrapolation of data does regularly wishcast the Tories to a swift return to government.

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
    I could be right in what? The post doesnt have any projections in it.
    What wishcasting? Where? Stop making up bullshit.
    Your post was perfectly fair for a political betting website. In fact it would be the perfect post for PB everyday of the week. I read into it something that wasn't there. So you have the fullest of apologies.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,087

    ...

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    You could be right but then your extrapolation of data does regularly wishcast the Tories to a swift return to government.

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
    I could be right in what? The post doesnt have any projections in it.
    What wishcasting? Where? Stop making up bullshit.
    Your post was perfectly fair for a political betting website. In fact it would be the perfect post for PB everyday of the week. I read into it something that wasn't there. So you have the fullest of apologies.
    Apologies from me if I was a bit waspish.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    Carnyx said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    Kier Starmer (and rachel from accounts) has done a lot of the heavy lifting there already.
    PB pedantry alert!


    Rachel from accounts please. Proper nouns start with a capital letter.
    PB further pedantry: Accounts is also quite likely to be a proper name.
    I debated that, and erred on the side of caution.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,706
    isam said:

    Just when Nigel Farage and his tiny parliamentary party were beginning to be exposed as shrill and clueless, Peter Kyle, one of the most promising cabinet ministers, handed them a free gift.

    By saying that the Reform leader is on the side of “people like Jimmy Savile”, Kyle destroys his own arguments for the Online Safety Act. The attempt to link Farage with a notorious child sex abuser is gratuitous and offensive. It makes Kyle seem desperate and allows Farage to pose as the wronged party. Farage’s criticisms of the act seem more credible after Kyle’s outburst than before.

    It is surprising that Kyle has chosen to use this slur when Labour people were so indignant – and rightly so – when Boris Johnson used it against Keir Starmer. That was when Johnson was desperate: Sue Gray’s report on lockdown parties in Downing Street had just been published, and Johnson wanted some way of deflecting attention.

    His attack on Starmer had nothing to do with Gray’s report. It was an aside referring to Starmer’s time as director of public prosecutions, during which, Johnson said, “he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out”.

    But it was more relevant than Kyle’s attack on Farage. It is factually correct that the Crown Prosecution Service failed to prosecute Savile when Starmer was in charge, and it is unclear whether it could have done more to bring Savile to justice at the time.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/peter-kyle-jimmy-savile-comment-nigel-farage-online-safety-bill-b2797944.html

    Except they weren’t being exposed as shrill and clueless . The media especially the BBC have given them an easy ride .
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    viewcode said:

    ...Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.

    2017 is on the phone. They want to talk to you. :)
    Please wait, I already have 2024 on the other line.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,566

    viewcode said:

    ...Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.

    2017 is on the phone. They want to talk to you. :)
    Please wait, I already have 2024 on the other line.
    That was after the Covid Swingers led to a loss of Truss.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382

    ...

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    You could be right but then your extrapolation of data does regularly wishcast the Tories to a swift return to government.

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
    I could be right in what? The post doesnt have any projections in it.
    What wishcasting? Where? Stop making up bullshit.
    Your post was perfectly fair for a political betting website. In fact it would be the perfect post for PB everyday of the week. I read into it something that wasn't there. So you have the fullest of apologies.
    Apologies from me if I was a bit waspish.
    Rubbish, a kick up the arse was appropriate sanction for not reading your post properly. Although I could apply my erroneous post to several other subsequent posters mind you. But best not to kick that one off.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,087
    Sean_F said:

    If you're looking to where the Conservatives can hold out against Reform, I think it would be upscale eurosceptic seats where the Lib Dems can't make much headway. Some such seats are quite rural (eg North Yorkshire, Scottish borders), some have large Jewish or Indian populations (eg parts of Greater London, and Hertsmere).

    I'd say there are roughly 40 such seats.

    There may be some very odd results next time if we get a result nationally with 6 parties on 5% plus and under 30% (4 of them on teens to 30) - 35% will probably win most seats, 30% will win a lot of them (in those circumstances). So, for your example, it's about identifying where the Tories can get 35% plus out to vote.or, perhaps, where they shove what resources they have in to get the 35% out.
    If Reform go above 30% then the Tories options collapse very swiftly.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    ydoethur said:

    ...

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    You could be right but then your extrapolation of data does regularly wishcast the Tories to a swift return to government.

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
    I could be right in what? The post doesnt have any projections in it.
    What wishcasting? Where? Stop making up bullshit.
    Your post was perfectly fair for a political betting website. In fact it would be the perfect post for PB everyday of the week. I read into it something that wasn't there. So you have the fullest of apologies.
    Apologies from me if I was a bit waspish.
    Look, we can’t be having all these retractions and apologies. It makes PBers come across as reasonable and responsible and then about 6 of our number all of whom work for the Spectator would be buggered.
    I really like it when those half dozen posters riff with each other. It hasn't happened for a while.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,001
    The problem I have with this theory is that if a patient had a pulse like that Tory line the undertaker would be on their way. Nothing seems to be doing anything for the Tories who are suffering a slow but persistent decline almost regardless of what is happening elsewhere. I mean, it is possible that the dead will awaken, Thriller style, and parade around the streets once more but right now it looks unlikely.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,995
    ydoethur said:

    ...

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    You could be right but then your extrapolation of data does regularly wishcast the Tories to a swift return to government.

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
    I could be right in what? The post doesnt have any projections in it.
    What wishcasting? Where? Stop making up bullshit.
    Your post was perfectly fair for a political betting website. In fact it would be the perfect post for PB everyday of the week. I read into it something that wasn't there. So you have the fullest of apologies.
    Apologies from me if I was a bit waspish.
    Look, we can’t be having all these retractions and apologies. It makes PBers come across as reasonable and responsible and then about 6 of our number all of whom work for the Spectator would be buggered.
    600k, Shirley?


  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,027
    Carnyx said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    Kier Starmer (and rachel from accounts) has done a lot of the heavy lifting there already.
    PB pedantry alert!


    Rachel from accounts please. Proper nouns start with a capital letter.
    PB further pedantry: Accounts is also quite likely to be a proper name.
    When and why did Prime Minister become prime minister in the posh papers?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,566
    edited July 29
    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    edited July 29

    Carnyx said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    Kier Starmer (and rachel from accounts) has done a lot of the heavy lifting there already.
    PB pedantry alert!


    Rachel from accounts please. Proper nouns start with a capital letter.
    PB further pedantry: Accounts is also quite likely to be a proper name.
    When and why did Prime Minister become prime minister in the posh papers?
    I think the application of nouns reflects a party of government. Conservative Prime Ministers are "proper" whilst Labour prime ministers are "improper". Well according to the Telegraph anyway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,566
    DavidL said:

    The problem I have with this theory is that if a patient had a pulse like that Tory line the undertaker would be on their way. Nothing seems to be doing anything for the Tories who are suffering a slow but persistent decline almost regardless of what is happening elsewhere. I mean, it is possible that the dead will awaken, Thriller style, and parade around the streets once more but right now it looks unlikely.

    They need somebody of great courage, to tell the truth, integrity, so people will accept it, imagination, to come up with solutions that would work, and ability, to put them into practice.

    And instead they have the likes of Robert Jenrick.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330
    ydoethur said:

    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.

    Zzzzzzz.......
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382

    ydoethur said:

    ...

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    You could be right but then your extrapolation of data does regularly wishcast the Tories to a swift return to government.

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
    I could be right in what? The post doesnt have any projections in it.
    What wishcasting? Where? Stop making up bullshit.
    Your post was perfectly fair for a political betting website. In fact it would be the perfect post for PB everyday of the week. I read into it something that wasn't there. So you have the fullest of apologies.
    Apologies from me if I was a bit waspish.
    Look, we can’t be having all these retractions and apologies. It makes PBers come across as reasonable and responsible and then about 6 of our number all of whom work for the Spectator would be buggered.
    600k, Shirley?


    I am not sure either you or @ydoethur are correct here. But like the Distinctively Average round in Richard Osman's House of Games, I suspect between you, you are close to the correct figure.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,384
    ydoethur said:

    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.

    Shouldn't you be having tea now? Al the other games seem to be.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,566

    ydoethur said:

    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.

    Shouldn't you be having tea now? Al the other games seem to be.
    Hour’s rain delay at the start.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The problem I have with this theory is that if a patient had a pulse like that Tory line the undertaker would be on their way. Nothing seems to be doing anything for the Tories who are suffering a slow but persistent decline almost regardless of what is happening elsewhere. I mean, it is possible that the dead will awaken, Thriller style, and parade around the streets once more but right now it looks unlikely.

    They need somebody of great courage, to tell the truth, integrity, so people will accept it, imagination, to come up with solutions that would work, and ability, to put them into practice.

    And instead they have the likes of Robert Jenrick.
    Boris Johnson's ears prick up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,566

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The problem I have with this theory is that if a patient had a pulse like that Tory line the undertaker would be on their way. Nothing seems to be doing anything for the Tories who are suffering a slow but persistent decline almost regardless of what is happening elsewhere. I mean, it is possible that the dead will awaken, Thriller style, and parade around the streets once more but right now it looks unlikely.

    They need somebody of great courage, to tell the truth, integrity, so people will accept it, imagination, to come up with solutions that would work, and ability, to put them into practice.

    And instead they have the likes of Robert Jenrick.
    Boris Johnson's ears prick up.
    Well, that’s progress given normally he just has his prick up.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,662
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.

    Shouldn't you be having tea now? Al the other games seem to be.
    Hour’s rain delay at the start.
    More coming your way too. Pissing it down in Bath. Last test starts Thursday, the weather's turned, summer is on its way out.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,292
    Sean_F said:

    If you're looking to where the Conservatives can hold out against Reform, I think it would be upscale eurosceptic seats where the Lib Dems can't make much headway. Some such seats are quite rural (eg North Yorkshire, Scottish borders), some have large Jewish or Indian populations (eg parts of Greater London, and Hertsmere).

    I'd say there are roughly 40 such seats.

    The question the Conservatives have to answer is "what are we for?" That feels a lot more existential than it did after the 1997 defeat.

    As for the last true blue spots, they look pretty opportunistic, like the Lib Dem map under Ashdown or Kennedy. Better than nothing, but not much.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    Just when Nigel Farage and his tiny parliamentary party were beginning to be exposed as shrill and clueless, Peter Kyle, one of the most promising cabinet ministers, handed them a free gift.

    By saying that the Reform leader is on the side of “people like Jimmy Savile”, Kyle destroys his own arguments for the Online Safety Act. The attempt to link Farage with a notorious child sex abuser is gratuitous and offensive. It makes Kyle seem desperate and allows Farage to pose as the wronged party. Farage’s criticisms of the act seem more credible after Kyle’s outburst than before.

    It is surprising that Kyle has chosen to use this slur when Labour people were so indignant – and rightly so – when Boris Johnson used it against Keir Starmer. That was when Johnson was desperate: Sue Gray’s report on lockdown parties in Downing Street had just been published, and Johnson wanted some way of deflecting attention.

    His attack on Starmer had nothing to do with Gray’s report. It was an aside referring to Starmer’s time as director of public prosecutions, during which, Johnson said, “he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out”.

    But it was more relevant than Kyle’s attack on Farage. It is factually correct that the Crown Prosecution Service failed to prosecute Savile when Starmer was in charge, and it is unclear whether it could have done more to bring Savile to justice at the time.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/peter-kyle-jimmy-savile-comment-nigel-farage-online-safety-bill-b2797944.html

    Except they weren’t being exposed as shrill and clueless . The media especially the BBC have given them an easy ride .
    The point remains true that a handy deflection has been offered.

    Fortunately for the government most people are probably fine with the Act, but it was a silly remark which means at least some people like me, who don't like Farage, think he looks more grown up, on one point at least.

    The doubling down was almost Trumpian.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387
    I'm trying to think of the last time the IMF gave such a direct challenge to an independent central bank rather than rebuke the nation's government for letting spending and inflation get out of control. Bailey needs to hit back tomorrow and tell the IMF to get back in their box and that the BoE is independent and won't be given lectures by anyone. I don't think he's doing a good job but the IMF needs to shut the fuck up when it comes to interest rates, that's not their remit. Maybe they need to tell Labour to cut spending and public sector salaries to bring inflation down so that the BoE can bring rates down as they were doing under the previous government.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,535
    As an antidote to dark times - young Red Pandas.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crm42vp32yeo
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,292
    edited July 29
    DavidL said:

    The problem I have with this theory is that if a patient had a pulse like that Tory line the undertaker would be on their way. Nothing seems to be doing anything for the Tories who are suffering a slow but persistent decline almost regardless of what is happening elsewhere. I mean, it is possible that the dead will awaken, Thriller style, and parade around the streets once more but right now it looks unlikely.

    Question is, even if Farage were be be throttled by his own major intestine in a desperate attempt to save humanity, is there any reason to think the Conservatives would be the ones to benefit?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,706
    kle4 said:

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    Just when Nigel Farage and his tiny parliamentary party were beginning to be exposed as shrill and clueless, Peter Kyle, one of the most promising cabinet ministers, handed them a free gift.

    By saying that the Reform leader is on the side of “people like Jimmy Savile”, Kyle destroys his own arguments for the Online Safety Act. The attempt to link Farage with a notorious child sex abuser is gratuitous and offensive. It makes Kyle seem desperate and allows Farage to pose as the wronged party. Farage’s criticisms of the act seem more credible after Kyle’s outburst than before.

    It is surprising that Kyle has chosen to use this slur when Labour people were so indignant – and rightly so – when Boris Johnson used it against Keir Starmer. That was when Johnson was desperate: Sue Gray’s report on lockdown parties in Downing Street had just been published, and Johnson wanted some way of deflecting attention.

    His attack on Starmer had nothing to do with Gray’s report. It was an aside referring to Starmer’s time as director of public prosecutions, during which, Johnson said, “he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out”.

    But it was more relevant than Kyle’s attack on Farage. It is factually correct that the Crown Prosecution Service failed to prosecute Savile when Starmer was in charge, and it is unclear whether it could have done more to bring Savile to justice at the time.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/peter-kyle-jimmy-savile-comment-nigel-farage-online-safety-bill-b2797944.html

    Except they weren’t being exposed as shrill and clueless . The media especially the BBC have given them an easy ride .
    The point remains true that a handy deflection has been offered.

    Fortunately for the government most people are probably fine with the Act, but it was a silly remark which means at least some people like me, who don't like Farage, think he looks more grown up, on one point at least.

    The doubling down was almost Trumpian.
    It works for Trump . There’s no point in trying to combat Reform with politics of days gone by . That ships sailed .
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548

    Carnyx said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    Kier Starmer (and rachel from accounts) has done a lot of the heavy lifting there already.
    PB pedantry alert!


    Rachel from accounts please. Proper nouns start with a capital letter.
    PB further pedantry: Accounts is also quite likely to be a proper name.
    When and why did Prime Minister become prime minister in the posh papers?
    I think the application of nouns reflects a party of government. Conservative Prime Ministers are "proper" whilst Labour prime ministers are "improper". Well according to the Telegraph anyway.
    Most of whose journalists were still at school the last time the country elected a Conservative PM….
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,850
    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,706
    The west should insist on immediate access to Gaza . If this isn’t allowed then sanctions should be put in place , Israeli diplomats should be expelled, all trade should be suspended .

    You know things are bad when even the vile MTG calls out the Israeli government.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548
    Meanwhile, out here in the north we've had the first cloudy showery day for about a month, so Mr Dog got treated to a run about Helsinki's premier dog island (there are others) between showers. Across the water is the President's home and the PM's summer house, from where a helicopter took off this morning.


  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387
    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,535
    isam said:

    Just when Nigel Farage and his tiny parliamentary party were beginning to be exposed as shrill and clueless, Peter Kyle, one of the most promising cabinet ministers, handed them a free gift.

    By saying that the Reform leader is on the side of “people like Jimmy Savile”, Kyle destroys his own arguments for the Online Safety Act. The attempt to link Farage with a notorious child sex abuser is gratuitous and offensive. It makes Kyle seem desperate and allows Farage to pose as the wronged party. Farage’s criticisms of the act seem more credible after Kyle’s outburst than before.

    It is surprising that Kyle has chosen to use this slur when Labour people were so indignant – and rightly so – when Boris Johnson used it against Keir Starmer. That was when Johnson was desperate: Sue Gray’s report on lockdown parties in Downing Street had just been published, and Johnson wanted some way of deflecting attention.

    His attack on Starmer had nothing to do with Gray’s report. It was an aside referring to Starmer’s time as director of public prosecutions, during which, Johnson said, “he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out”.

    But it was more relevant than Kyle’s attack on Farage. It is factually correct that the Crown Prosecution Service failed to prosecute Savile when Starmer was in charge, and it is unclear whether it could have done more to bring Savile to justice at the time.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/peter-kyle-jimmy-savile-comment-nigel-farage-online-safety-bill-b2797944.html

    For a pacifist-minded bunch, Labour do seem to have a huge amount of weaponry available for blasting at their feet...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,675
    IanB2 said:

    Meanwhile, out here in the north we've had the first cloudy showery day for about a month, so Mr Dog got treated to a run about Helsinki's premier dog island (there are others) between showers. Across the water is the President's home and the PM's summer house, from where a helicopter took off this morning.


    How many showers a day does your dog have?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548
    boulay said:

    IanB2 said:

    Meanwhile, out here in the north we've had the first cloudy showery day for about a month, so Mr Dog got treated to a run about Helsinki's premier dog island (there are others) between showers. Across the water is the President's home and the PM's summer house, from where a helicopter took off this morning.


    How many showers a day does your dog have?
    lol. About half a one per month.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    nico67 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    Just when Nigel Farage and his tiny parliamentary party were beginning to be exposed as shrill and clueless, Peter Kyle, one of the most promising cabinet ministers, handed them a free gift.

    By saying that the Reform leader is on the side of “people like Jimmy Savile”, Kyle destroys his own arguments for the Online Safety Act. The attempt to link Farage with a notorious child sex abuser is gratuitous and offensive. It makes Kyle seem desperate and allows Farage to pose as the wronged party. Farage’s criticisms of the act seem more credible after Kyle’s outburst than before.

    It is surprising that Kyle has chosen to use this slur when Labour people were so indignant – and rightly so – when Boris Johnson used it against Keir Starmer. That was when Johnson was desperate: Sue Gray’s report on lockdown parties in Downing Street had just been published, and Johnson wanted some way of deflecting attention.

    His attack on Starmer had nothing to do with Gray’s report. It was an aside referring to Starmer’s time as director of public prosecutions, during which, Johnson said, “he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out”.

    But it was more relevant than Kyle’s attack on Farage. It is factually correct that the Crown Prosecution Service failed to prosecute Savile when Starmer was in charge, and it is unclear whether it could have done more to bring Savile to justice at the time.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/peter-kyle-jimmy-savile-comment-nigel-farage-online-safety-bill-b2797944.html

    Except they weren’t being exposed as shrill and clueless . The media especially the BBC have given them an easy ride .
    The point remains true that a handy deflection has been offered.

    Fortunately for the government most people are probably fine with the Act, but it was a silly remark which means at least some people like me, who don't like Farage, think he looks more grown up, on one point at least.

    The doubling down was almost Trumpian.
    It works for Trump . There’s no point in trying to combat Reform with politics of days gone by . That ships sailed .
    You can be tough without making a nonsense comparison though. There's plenty to actually lay into him about. Despite his protestations he's a useful idiot for Russia for example, blaming the EU for the invasion of Ukraine.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    edited July 29
    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    Just when Nigel Farage and his tiny parliamentary party were beginning to be exposed as shrill and clueless, Peter Kyle, one of the most promising cabinet ministers, handed them a free gift.

    By saying that the Reform leader is on the side of “people like Jimmy Savile”, Kyle destroys his own arguments for the Online Safety Act. The attempt to link Farage with a notorious child sex abuser is gratuitous and offensive. It makes Kyle seem desperate and allows Farage to pose as the wronged party. Farage’s criticisms of the act seem more credible after Kyle’s outburst than before.

    It is surprising that Kyle has chosen to use this slur when Labour people were so indignant – and rightly so – when Boris Johnson used it against Keir Starmer. That was when Johnson was desperate: Sue Gray’s report on lockdown parties in Downing Street had just been published, and Johnson wanted some way of deflecting attention.

    His attack on Starmer had nothing to do with Gray’s report. It was an aside referring to Starmer’s time as director of public prosecutions, during which, Johnson said, “he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out”.

    But it was more relevant than Kyle’s attack on Farage. It is factually correct that the Crown Prosecution Service failed to prosecute Savile when Starmer was in charge, and it is unclear whether it could have done more to bring Savile to justice at the time.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/peter-kyle-jimmy-savile-comment-nigel-farage-online-safety-bill-b2797944.html

    Except they weren’t being exposed as shrill and clueless . The media especially the BBC have given them an easy ride .
    Yes, I'm not sure where that pleasant thought came from. "Shrill and clueless" have a stable poll lead.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,850
    edited July 29

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    The LDs are polling a couple of points higher than at the last General Election. I suspect, therefore, that they will be holding on to their vote in pretty much all their current seats. Nevertheless, they will probably lose a few seats to Reform in the South West, while picking up some in the South East where the fracturing of the right allows them to sneak up the middle (so to speak).

    Were a General Election to be held today, I would expect them to make modest net gains - i.e. 5 to 10 seats - while Reform swept to a majority.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,384

    isam said:

    Just when Nigel Farage and his tiny parliamentary party were beginning to be exposed as shrill and clueless, Peter Kyle, one of the most promising cabinet ministers, handed them a free gift.

    By saying that the Reform leader is on the side of “people like Jimmy Savile”, Kyle destroys his own arguments for the Online Safety Act. The attempt to link Farage with a notorious child sex abuser is gratuitous and offensive. It makes Kyle seem desperate and allows Farage to pose as the wronged party. Farage’s criticisms of the act seem more credible after Kyle’s outburst than before.

    It is surprising that Kyle has chosen to use this slur when Labour people were so indignant – and rightly so – when Boris Johnson used it against Keir Starmer. That was when Johnson was desperate: Sue Gray’s report on lockdown parties in Downing Street had just been published, and Johnson wanted some way of deflecting attention.

    His attack on Starmer had nothing to do with Gray’s report. It was an aside referring to Starmer’s time as director of public prosecutions, during which, Johnson said, “he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out”.

    But it was more relevant than Kyle’s attack on Farage. It is factually correct that the Crown Prosecution Service failed to prosecute Savile when Starmer was in charge, and it is unclear whether it could have done more to bring Savile to justice at the time.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/peter-kyle-jimmy-savile-comment-nigel-farage-online-safety-bill-b2797944.html

    For a pacifist-minded bunch, Labour do seem to have a huge amount of weaponry available for blasting at their feet...
    I'm not sure it won't work. I know I'm an old man but Saville's still a very nasty memory for a lot of people, especially as until he was unmasked he was practically due to be canonised.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,337
    Interesting utilisation of boundless free energy during windy/sunny periods: aluminium smelting and recycling. Likely to replace plastic packaging.

    If we brought in nodal industrial energy pricing then Inverness, Teesside etc could have a mini industrial boom on the back of it.

    BBC News - Could aluminium become the packaging 'champion'? - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3nw5vnzgpo?app-referrer=search
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,087
    edited July 29
    Only 3 local by elections this week.

    Barnstaple North Devon - LD defence should be LD hold but they won with 40% last time and Labour not running so where their vote goes might change things. Oredict LD hold

    Barking - Lab defence. Reform gain here i fancy, Reform seem strong in East London. If they can break down Labs totemic Barking hold it gets interesting in East London next time

    Warrington - Lab defence.
    Will Labour's 59% last time in the Merseyside shadow hold on vs Reform? Probably yeah. Lab hold
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.

    Shouldn't you be having tea now? Al the other games seem to be.
    Hour’s rain delay at the start.
    More coming your way too. Pissing it down in Bath. Last test starts Thursday, the weather's turned, summer is on its way out.
    Not so fast. My app says 2 weeks of dry warm sun commencing next Monday. In London anyway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,566
    Eabhal said:

    Interesting utilisation of boundless free energy during windy/sunny periods: aluminium smelting and recycling. Likely to replace plastic packaging.

    If we brought in nodal industrial energy pricing then Inverness, Teesside etc could have a mini industrial boom on the back of it.

    BBC News - Could aluminium become the packaging 'champion'? - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3nw5vnzgpo?app-referrer=search

    Is the Lochaber smelter in Fort William still going? I remember it got into terrible difficulty a couple of years ago.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,292
    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    MaxPB said:


    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?

    A merger might be rational, but politics isn't just about the rational. Any merger means somebody is Number One and someone is Number Two. And at the moment, neither side will be willing to admit their Number-Two-ness. (And actually, why should they?)

    Consider how much time and how many defeats it took for Lib and Lab to mostly stop firing at each other.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,566

    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    MaxPB said:


    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?

    A merger might be rational, but politics isn't just about the rational. Any merger means somebody is Number One and someone is Number Two. And at the moment, neither side will be willing to admit their Number-Two-ness. (And actually, why should they?)

    Consider how much time and how many defeats it took for Lib and Lab to mostly stop firing at each other.
    Kemi’s performance is a Number Two.

    But Nigel Farage just IS a Number Two.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    (SNIP since retracted and the subject of an abject apology)

    Anyway there's always incumbent swingback to look forward to. That never fails.
    I wonder if there's such a thing as swingback to the incumbent Opposition as in Her Majesty's?

    If there is it would help the Conservatives. Because lest we forget, that is what they are.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,995
    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Interesting utilisation of boundless free energy during windy/sunny periods: aluminium smelting and recycling. Likely to replace plastic packaging.

    If we brought in nodal industrial energy pricing then Inverness, Teesside etc could have a mini industrial boom on the back of it.

    BBC News - Could aluminium become the packaging 'champion'? - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3nw5vnzgpo?app-referrer=search

    Is the Lochaber smelter in Fort William still going? I remember it got into terrible difficulty a couple of years ago.
    Aluminium smelting and production are continuous processes - they hate being stop/started.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,384
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.

    Shouldn't you be having tea now? Al the other games seem to be.
    Hour’s rain delay at the start.
    More coming your way too. Pissing it down in Bath. Last test starts Thursday, the weather's turned, summer is on its way out.
    Not so fast. My app says 2 weeks of dry warm sun commencing next Monday. In London anyway.
    Hope so; and my long-range says similar. Anyway it's our local Cricket Club's annual Festival starting on 10th and we need good weather for that. Beer marquee, fifty or so Essex (mainly) ales all at £4 a pint. Used to have Essex II's playing a 3 day match but that's rather slipped since Covid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232

    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    MaxPB said:


    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?

    A merger might be rational, but politics isn't just about the rational. Any merger means somebody is Number One and someone is Number Two. And at the moment, neither side will be willing to admit their Number-Two-ness. (And actually, why should they?)

    Consider how much time and how many defeats it took for Lib and Lab to mostly stop firing at each other.
    Tories have the MP numbers and history so won't want to play second fiddle but Reform have all the attention and conservative momentum so despite low MPs will feel they deserve top billing.

    Plus the fact not all the support of either would accept a merger. Not an easy situation.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,850
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?
    Because he'd inherit the Conservatives money and infrastructure, and eliminate the only competition on the right. So long as he was the one in charge, then Reform voters would go with it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.

    Shouldn't you be having tea now? Al the other games seem to be.
    Hour’s rain delay at the start.
    More coming your way too. Pissing it down in Bath. Last test starts Thursday, the weather's turned, summer is on its way out.
    Not so fast. My app says 2 weeks of dry warm sun commencing next Monday. In London anyway.
    Hope so; and my long-range says similar. Anyway it's our local Cricket Club's annual Festival starting on 10th and we need good weather for that. Beer marquee, fifty or so Essex (mainly) ales all at £4 a pint. Used to have Essex II's playing a 3 day match but that's rather slipped since Covid.
    Yes, events like that are so much better with the sun out. And the old "you can't trust the weather in England" chestnut is a bit outdated now tbf. It's becoming more reliable.

    Hope that hasn't jinxed things.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,698

    Carnyx said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Jeremy Corbyn delivering yet another Conservative government!

    Kier Starmer (and rachel from accounts) has done a lot of the heavy lifting there already.
    PB pedantry alert!


    Rachel from accounts please. Proper nouns start with a capital letter.
    PB further pedantry: Accounts is also quite likely to be a proper name.
    When and why did Prime Minister become prime minister in the posh papers?
    It does seem to be a thing these days, also with lord snot, lady thingummy and so on.

    I am not impressed - especially as the meaning is substantially changed. Compare for instance Secession Church with secession church (of which there are/were a number in Scotland).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,263

    Sean_F said:

    If you're looking to where the Conservatives can hold out against Reform, I think it would be upscale eurosceptic seats where the Lib Dems can't make much headway. Some such seats are quite rural (eg North Yorkshire, Scottish borders), some have large Jewish or Indian populations (eg parts of Greater London, and Hertsmere).

    I'd say there are roughly 40 such seats.

    The question the Conservatives have to answer is "what are we for?" That feels a lot more existential than it did after the 1997 defeat.

    As for the last true blue spots, they look pretty opportunistic, like the Lib Dem map under Ashdown or Kennedy. Better than nothing, but not much.
    More like the Liberal holdouts, after 1924.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,696
    edited July 29
    A fairly detailed look at Reform UK running Kent, in the Kent & Surrey Bylines ultralocal site. It's a part of the Byeline Times network, so broadly sceptical. Mainly of interest because Kent are the first to get Dolged.

    https://kentandsurreybylines.co.uk/politics/local-government/inside-the-turquoise-tornado-reform-uks-tumultuous-first-90-days-running-kent/

    Video based on this piece, from vlogger Bowlerhat Man, who has been tracking Reform local authorities in detail (25 minutes):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMlzba6134o
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,384
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Kane Williamson’s last six balls faced.

    Dot
    Dot
    Four
    Six
    Four
    Six

    Van Buuren was bowling quite well until then…

    This is how you Bazball - without taking fool risks.

    Shouldn't you be having tea now? Al the other games seem to be.
    Hour’s rain delay at the start.
    More coming your way too. Pissing it down in Bath. Last test starts Thursday, the weather's turned, summer is on its way out.
    Not so fast. My app says 2 weeks of dry warm sun commencing next Monday. In London anyway.
    Hope so; and my long-range says similar. Anyway it's our local Cricket Club's annual Festival starting on 10th and we need good weather for that. Beer marquee, fifty or so Essex (mainly) ales all at £4 a pint. Used to have Essex II's playing a 3 day match but that's rather slipped since Covid.
    Yes, events like that are so much better with the sun out. And the old "you can't trust the weather in England" chestnut is a bit outdated now tbf. It's becoming more reliable.

    Hope that hasn't jinxed things.
    Mid August should be OK. Should get 4-500 people watching on a good day, which for a small town isn't bad.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,787
    edited July 29
    nico67 said:

    The west should insist on immediate access to Gaza . If this isn’t allowed then sanctions should be put in place , Israeli diplomats should be expelled, all trade should be suspended .

    You know things are bad when even the vile MTG calls out the Israeli government.

    and even Jon Stewart's given up making jokes about it.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5kXCdzt_us
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,696
    Roger said:

    nico67 said:

    The west should insist on immediate access to Gaza . If this isn’t allowed then sanctions should be put in place , Israeli diplomats should be expelled, all trade should be suspended .

    You know things are bad when even the vile MTG calls out the Israeli government.

    and even John Stewart's given up making jokes about it.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5kXCdzt_us
    There's perhaps more pressure on Trump, as the story seems to be breaking through "Epstein" in the USA.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,043
    edited July 29
    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?
    Because he'd inherit the Conservatives money and infrastructure, and eliminate the only competition on the right. So long as he was the one in charge, then Reform voters would go with it.
    But he'll get that after the election anyway if the polls stay consistent.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,337

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Interesting utilisation of boundless free energy during windy/sunny periods: aluminium smelting and recycling. Likely to replace plastic packaging.

    If we brought in nodal industrial energy pricing then Inverness, Teesside etc could have a mini industrial boom on the back of it.

    BBC News - Could aluminium become the packaging 'champion'? - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3nw5vnzgpo?app-referrer=search

    Is the Lochaber smelter in Fort William still going? I remember it got into terrible difficulty a couple of years ago.
    Aluminium smelting and production are continuous processes - they hate being stop/started.
    Smelting is - but I think secondary production needn't be?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    The LDs are polling a couple of points higher than at the last General Election. I suspect, therefore, that they will be holding on to their vote in pretty much all their current seats. Nevertheless, they will probably lose a few seats to Reform in the South West, while picking up some in the South East where the fracturing of the right allows them to sneak up the middle (so to speak).

    Were a General Election to be held today, I would expect them to make modest net gains - i.e. 5 to 10 seats - while Reform swept to a majority.
    Local election results don't, so far, tend to suggest direct LD to Reform seat changes. In the South and SW council areas up in May, my impression is Reform did well in areas without much LD presence, and LDs well where they won in 2024.

    At the moment, Lib Dem areas seem relatively immune to Farage's charms in that they are already the established "none of the above" choice. If Reform hoovered up the Tories more fully, it could be another story. But, just now, LDs will just be be happy to see a split right wing vote in these places.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,995
    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Interesting utilisation of boundless free energy during windy/sunny periods: aluminium smelting and recycling. Likely to replace plastic packaging.

    If we brought in nodal industrial energy pricing then Inverness, Teesside etc could have a mini industrial boom on the back of it.

    BBC News - Could aluminium become the packaging 'champion'? - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3nw5vnzgpo?app-referrer=search

    Is the Lochaber smelter in Fort William still going? I remember it got into terrible difficulty a couple of years ago.
    Aluminium smelting and production are continuous processes - they hate being stop/started.
    Smelting is - but I think secondary production needn't be?
    All the processes up to making rolls of aluminium sheet are pretty continuous by nature.

    You could probably stop/start stamping, folding and welding - within limits.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,043
    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,360
    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    A mere 18 months late, but at last something from Starmer.

    The pro- Bibi PB fanbois will have a fit of the vapours!
  • PJHPJH Posts: 884
    rcs1000 said:

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    The LDs are polling a couple of points higher than at the last General Election. I suspect, therefore, that they will be holding on to their vote in pretty much all their current seats. Nevertheless, they will probably lose a few seats to Reform in the South West, while picking up some in the South East where the fracturing of the right allows them to sneak up the middle (so to speak).

    Were a General Election to be held today, I would expect them to make modest net gains - i.e. 5 to 10 seats - while Reform swept to a majority.
    I had a look at where there might be a Reform gain from LD. The two most likely are Newton Abbot (Reform 14% behind, in 3rd place) and Brecon (15.4%, in 4th). Anywhere else is at least a 20% gap with Reform always in 3rd place or worse and on current polling look out of range.

    They really are fishing for two different pools of voters. Even if the LDs drop back a bit in the south it looks like the Conservatives will benefit rather than Reform. On current polling the Conservatives have dropped back even more, so it feels like most of those 72 are pretty secure.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,263

    rcs1000 said:

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    The LDs are polling a couple of points higher than at the last General Election. I suspect, therefore, that they will be holding on to their vote in pretty much all their current seats. Nevertheless, they will probably lose a few seats to Reform in the South West, while picking up some in the South East where the fracturing of the right allows them to sneak up the middle (so to speak).

    Were a General Election to be held today, I would expect them to make modest net gains - i.e. 5 to 10 seats - while Reform swept to a majority.
    Local election results don't, so far, tend to suggest direct LD to Reform seat changes. In the South and SW council areas up in May, my impression is Reform did well in areas without much LD presence, and LDs well where they won in 2024.

    At the moment, Lib Dem areas seem relatively immune to Farage's charms in that they are already the established "none of the above" choice. If Reform hoovered up the Tories more fully, it could be another story. But, just now, LDs will just be be happy to see a split right wing vote in these places.
    Devon and Cornwall is probably where Reform can win seats off the Lib Dems. Somerset, and the Cotswolds seems secure for them..
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,730

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    I wonder if this was coordinated with the French? They do it, we threaten to do it,
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,008
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,384
    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Only "our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm."

    Doesn't really let them off the hook, does it?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,292
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    The old tabloid wisdom was "who the hell reads the third paragraph?"

    The newer tabloid wisdom was "who the hell reads any paragraphs at all?"

    I don't know how you can go worse than that, but we have.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,263
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    The Israeli government has exhausted its allies' patience.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387
    edited July 29
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    I did and it doesn't mention that the recognition depends on those factors only that the government will continue to insist on them but what happens if Hamas doesn't disband before the September deadline? It's not clear that the government will backtrack based on the specific wording.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,787

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    A mere 18 months late, but at last something from Starmer.

    The pro- Bibi PB fanbois will have a fit of the vapours!
    I fear a cop-out. But as you say let's see
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,043
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    Meanwhile, our message to the terrorists of Hamas is unchanged but unequivocal. They must immediately release all of the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, disarm and accept that they will play no part in the government of Gaza.
    We’ll make an assessment in September on how far the parties have met these steps, but no one should have a veto over our decision. So this is the way forward.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,360
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    The IDF are the terrorists, terrorising civilians from the air.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
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