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Hypothetical polls, a history showing they are consistently bobbins – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,580
edited 7:20AM in General
Hypothetical polls, a history showing they are consistently bobbins – politicalbetting.com

There are some hypothetical VI polls with a new Corbyn party doing the rounds. Take them with a pinch of salt. It's a very natural thing to ask, but it's very difficult to do (and these things – voting intention polls asking about hypothetical new parties – have a *terrible* track record).

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,900
    edited 7:24AM
    First?

    Wow, there's a start for a Sunday morning. Just back from my constitutional. It was wet. The whisper of the Dighty Burn was a snarling muddy rumble this morning and the puddles were across the roads in places.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,352
    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,900
    Just checked the score last night. Germany won on penalties. Quelle suprise as the French would say in disappointment.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,937
    edited 7:31AM
    Vanilla: Desktop site - the top bar is trying to order things vertically rather than horizontally which is a waste of screen real estate. Then when you scroll down to read comments it disappears so you can't navigate back to it without extra button pressing.



    The avatars and user infos are also too big - ask Vanilla to make them narrower please.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,937
    Mobile version looks healthy enough though at least.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475
  • TresTres Posts: 2,937

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,211
    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,211
    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    On topic, Hillary should be running for mayor ?? 😂

    NYC - Net Favorables:

    H. Clinton: +15%
    Silwa: +13%
    AOC: +13%
    Cuomo: +2%
    Sharpton: +1%

    Mamdani: -3%
    Adams: -19%
    Trump: -22%

    HarrisX / July 2025

    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1946614536653451443

    Actually she's likely more popular because she isn't doing so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Well yes, and no.

    The potential disintegration of a coalition, which bears at the very least part responsibility for the to toxification of social media, might be a step in its evolution to something a little less so ?

    After all, it is not going away.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,900
    edited 7:56AM
    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    Is Peter arguing that Labour voters be stripped of the franchise then ?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,715
    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,155
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Interesting. Seems that the push for EV cars will compound the issue. Mind you I saw a local farmer the other day who had put PV panels on the bonnet of his diesel powered 4x4.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    Jeremy will be pushing 80 by the time of the next election.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,219
    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Terry Christian has accused Enoch Powell of being a paedophile dozens of times recently on twitter. I don’t know the legal position on things like this but, if they were made aware, I’d be surprised if Powell’s daughters didn’t take some kind of action.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Then we need PR.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,900
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,211
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Terry Christian has accused Enoch Powell of being a paedophile dozens of times recently on twitter. I don’t know the legal position on things like this but, if they were made aware, I’d be surprised if Powell’s daughters didn’t take some kind of action.
    I don't think it is legally possible to libel the dead, so Terry Christian is safe.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Interesting. Seems that the push for EV cars will compound the issue. Mind you I saw a local farmer the other day who had put PV panels on the bonnet of his diesel powered 4x4.
    Actually EVs might slightly mitigate the issue, as one of the unfavourable cost comparators with year round solar is the (much) greater requirement for battery storage.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,900
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Then we need PR.
    We may well do but I am not clear that has to do with the sanity or otherwise of the grassroots.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,160
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    If solar keeps you up at night, hopefully you've got a torch, as you won't be able to turn the lights on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,211
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,474
    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Morning, PB.

    And quite a few middje-class people who preferred to prospect of higher taxes to social breakdown.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,352
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Terry Christian has accused Enoch Powell of being a paedophile dozens of times recently on twitter. I don’t know the legal position on things like this but, if they were made aware, I’d be surprised if Powell’s daughters didn’t take some kind of action.
    Cannae libel the dead I think is the legal position.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,835
    edited 8:10AM
    Morning all.
    We don't need hypotheticals, we can do some extrapolation. At the last election we had a party of the left/gaza etc running - Galloways WPB which got 0.7% of the vote overall standing in about 150 seats - about 3.5% on average per seat contested. Plus we had indies, many of whom were of similar views taking 2% nationwide and 5 seats in England.
    A Corbyn vehicle should attract better support than a Galloway one and will sail very well in more heavily Gaza concerned city seats. I could see a 'standing everywhere' Corbyn party getting 5% of the total vote, and average over 10% in inner city seats, competitive in maybe a dozen.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,474
    *middle* class, and *the* prospect of, that should be there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
    Yes, that's what killed the Xlinks project (along with security concerns).

    The point of the argument isn't that wind power is probably a big part of our best energy option - which it likely is - it's that year round solar for the majority of generation in (eg) Arizona or Saudi is going to be less than a third of the cost.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,627
    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,900
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,670
    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    The same can be said of many previous elections. Most don’t even know what’s in the manifestos and then moan when the party starts putting those pledges into law . Ironically the lowering of voting age is likely to help other parties more than Labour so some ridiculous right wing headlines as rigging the system are totally wide of the mark .
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,474
    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Indeed. The general view of the time was that the Conservat8ves had failed both the economy, and society. Many people therefore voted both against this, and in the hope of something better.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,344
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
    Yes, that's what killed the Xlinks project (along with security concerns).

    The point of the argument isn't that wind power is probably a big part of our best energy option - which it likely is - it's that year round solar for the majority of generation in (eg) Arizona or Saudi is going to be less than a third of the cost.
    Different countries have different competitive advantages, that's never been unusual.

    However the way costs are going, we should have cheap electricity here, even if they have even cheaper electricity there, however electricity should ideally be only a small factor in the cost base of even intensive industry. Labour etc ought to be more important.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Terry Christian has accused Enoch Powell of being a paedophile dozens of times recently on twitter. I don’t know the legal position on things like this but, if they were made aware, I’d be surprised if Powell’s daughters didn’t take some kind of action.
    Cannae libel the dead I think is the legal position.
    Not here.
    You can in some jurisdictions (S Korea, for example).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,985
    In terms of hypothetical polls relating to new parties they don't have a great record, although Reform have shown there is no reason a new party cannot breakthrough.

    In terms of hypothetical polls relating to a new party leader though they tend to be more accurate, eg on Major replacing Thatcher in 1990 or Johnson replacing May in 2019
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,655
    Tres said:

    Vanilla: Desktop site - the top bar is trying to order things vertically rather than horizontally which is a waste of screen real estate. Then when you scroll down to read comments it disappears so you can't navigate back to it without extra button pressing.



    The avatars and user infos are also too big - ask Vanilla to make them narrower please.

    Text noticeably fainter, perhaps even grey. Not an improverment but a detriment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,985
    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    The same can be said of many previous elections. Most don’t even know what’s in the manifestos and then moan when the party starts putting those pledges into law . Ironically the lowering of voting age is likely to help other parties more than Labour so some ridiculous right wing headlines as rigging the system are totally wide of the mark .
    An analysis yesterday said giving 16 year olds the vote would mean Labour held a handful of seats now projected to go Reform but no other seats would change and Reform would still win most seats on current polls
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,985
    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,474
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,985
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Terry Christian has accused Enoch Powell of being a paedophile dozens of times recently on twitter. I don’t know the legal position on things like this but, if they were made aware, I’d be surprised if Powell’s daughters didn’t take some kind of action.
    I don't think it is legally possible to libel the dead, so Terry Christian is safe.
    He is but is still an intellectual pygmy compared to what Enoch Powell was
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,749
    An MP with an IQ lower than Lee Anderson ..... Is it possible?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9aQxIOlFrg
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,352
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Great to see a fresh new face on the BBC.
    The crown jowels so to speak.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,985
    edited 8:24AM
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    40% of the country voted for Corbyn in 2017, Farage is now leading the polls, it was not just party members who backed them.

    IDS of course now looks like a relatively moderate Tory grandee compared to either of them and Truss
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,748
    Mr. L, there are plans afoot to link solar farms in North Africa with various parts of Europe. I think there was one such intended for the UK but it fell through.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,835
    edited 8:26AM
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,113
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    40% of the country voted for Corbyn
    But he still lost!

    Good morning!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,613
    This new Vanilla Forums look is woke. Boooooo.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,749
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
    Yes, that's what killed the Xlinks project (along with security concerns).

    The point of the argument isn't that wind power is probably a big part of our best energy option - which it likely is - it's that year round solar for the majority of generation in (eg) Arizona or Saudi is going to be less than a third of the cost.
    Solar panels are dirt cheap. And getting cheaper. The expensive part is the grid connection, the power converter electronics and battery storage.

    If you need 4x as many panels (because it’s the U.K.), the rest of the system stays the same. You only need more panels. Which are dirt cheap.

    So a solar farm in the UK will cost little more than one in Morocco. Certainly, the difference will be orders of magnitude less than building and maintaining an inter-continental cable.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,211
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    I have been a member of the LibDems for 12 or so years, and there is real consultation of the members over issues, so internal democracy is possible.

    Perhaps the answer is to move away from our traditional system of government, with an all powerful leader elected from the legislature and have a genuine presidential type election for leader, and a parliament elected by PR. This would combine the need for leadership with democratic accountability. The president would have a mandate, but need to negotiate on actions with a more representative body.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,155
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
    Boswall's thread points out the key engineering issue of the lifetime costs of any engineered product (for those of you that haven't had to deal with it). PV is simpler, cheaper and less lifetime costs from an installation, running and maintenance point of view.

    Against this (as alluded to in the transmission cost) is that solar is in the wrong place for the UK. But if the North Africans decide to set up a grid with the Southern Europeans, you could see an energy cascade northwards. They will have to allow for the NIMBYs that don't like HV transmission lines in their area - a real issue in the UK.

    It's a useful contribution to the debate and domestic energy storage (Tesla batteries or even a Tesla) looks like another additional area for future building regulation, if GCH is to be banned. I say that as someone who made their living out of the polluting coal power stations and the even more polluting nuclear.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,985
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    I have been a member of the LibDems for 12 or so years, and there is real consultation of the members over issues, so internal democracy is possible.

    Perhaps the answer is to move away from our traditional system of government, with an all powerful leader elected from the legislature and have a genuine presidential type election for leader, and a parliament elected by PR. This would combine the need for leadership with democratic accountability. The president would have a mandate, but need to negotiate on actions with a more representative body.
    In a hung parliament they do, as May found from 2017-2019
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,900

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Terry Christian has accused Enoch Powell of being a paedophile dozens of times recently on twitter. I don’t know the legal position on things like this but, if they were made aware, I’d be surprised if Powell’s daughters didn’t take some kind of action.
    Cannae libel the dead I think is the legal position.
    Although @TSE has frequent goes at Hannibal, Cannae notwithstanding.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,471

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
    Yes, that's what killed the Xlinks project (along with security concerns).

    The point of the argument isn't that wind power is probably a big part of our best energy option - which it likely is - it's that year round solar for the majority of generation in (eg) Arizona or Saudi is going to be less than a third of the cost.
    Solar panels are dirt cheap. And getting cheaper. The expensive part is the grid connection, the power converter electronics and battery storage.

    If you need 4x as many panels (because it’s the U.K.), the rest of the system stays the same. You only need more panels. Which are dirt cheap.

    So a solar farm in the UK will cost little more than one in Morocco. Certainly, the difference will be orders of magnitude less than building and maintaining an inter-continental cable.
    Was chatting to somebody involved in the Morocco to UK cables. Transmission losses are in the order of 20%. Which covers a lot of the cost of domestic grid connection, power converter electronics and battery storage.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,244
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Good morning

    Listening to Farage, he hasn't a clue about how he would run the country and is simply playing popularism at its worse

    Whatever happens in the future, Farage is not the answer and I genuinely hope tactical voting does take pace to save our county from a UK Trump.

    Mind you if his interview this morning is anything to go by he will have a nightmare in a general election campaign
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,985

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
    Perhaps but in Canada this year Poilevre's Conservatives got 41% but even then still lost due to massive tactical voting for Carney's Liberals who got 43%
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,367
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,826
    edited 8:37AM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
    Perhaps but in Canada this year Poilevre's Conservatives got 41% but even then still lost due to massive tactical voting for Carney's Liberals who got 43%
    Ah yes, that was the election I tipped Poilievre to lose his seat at 14/1.

    #LegendaryModestyKlaxon
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,835
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
    Perhaps but in Canada this year Poilevre's Conservatives got 41% but even then still lost due to massive tactical voting for Carney's Liberals who got 43%
    Well, yes, that's why I said it would require extreme levels of tactical voting - and in Canada there is only one other party (outside Quebec) with any sort of decent support to farm. Its like the UK pre 2015. Here we have Lab, Con, LD and Green at/near 10% or higher
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,471
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    I have been a member of the LibDems for 12 or so years, and there is real consultation of the members over issues, so internal democracy is possible.
    How did the consultation over student fees go? The wording of the Pledge was:

    "I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament and to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative.”
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,900
    IanB2 said:

    ..

    If that's for scale I am assuming your dog is, say, 50 feet tall?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,471

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
    Perhaps but in Canada this year Poilevre's Conservatives got 41% but even then still lost due to massive tactical voting for Carney's Liberals who got 43%
    Ah yes, that was the election I tipped Poilievre to lose his seat at 14/1.

    #LegendaryModestyKlaxon
    Jusy how many hundred decibels IS that klaxon?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,471
    IanB2 said:

    ..

    Morning, Dog.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,985
    edited 8:42AM

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
    Perhaps but in Canada this year Poilevre's Conservatives got 41% but even then still lost due to massive tactical voting for Carney's Liberals who got 43%
    Well, yes, that's why I said it would require extreme levels of tactical voting - and in Canada there is only one other party (outside Quebec) with any sort of decent support to farm. Its like the UK pre 2015. Here we have Lab, Con, LD and Green at/near 10% or higher
    The NDP got 17% in 2021 and the Greens 2% and People's Party 5% and BQ 8%, their votes mainly collapsed to the Liberals except the People's Party which collapsed to the Conservatives
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,155
    IanB2 said:

    ..

    Is it very windy there?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,835
    edited 8:43AM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
    Perhaps but in Canada this year Poilevre's Conservatives got 41% but even then still lost due to massive tactical voting for Carney's Liberals who got 43%
    Well, yes, that's why I said it would require extreme levels of tactical voting - and in Canada there is only one other party (outside Quebec) with any sort of decent support to farm. Its like the UK pre 2015. Here we have Lab, Con, LD and Green at/near 10% or higher
    The NDP got 17% in 2021 and the Greens 2% and People's Party 5% and BQ 8%, their votes mainly collapsed to the Liberals except the People's Party which collapsed to the Conservatives
    I'm aware of the Canadian election result, thanks
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,367
    Battlebus said:

    IanB2 said:

    ..

    Is it very windy there?
    Hardly any wind at all. Despite the BBC forecast, the first clouds I have seen for a week, and right up here even the occasional very light shower
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,826

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
    Perhaps but in Canada this year Poilevre's Conservatives got 41% but even then still lost due to massive tactical voting for Carney's Liberals who got 43%
    Ah yes, that was the election I tipped Poilievre to lose his seat at 14/1.

    #LegendaryModestyKlaxon
    Jusy how many hundred decibels IS that klaxon?
    It's measured in terms of Foghorn Leghorns.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    IanB2 said:

    ..

    Did scale dog just get Vanilla-ed ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,393
    IanB2 said:

    Battlebus said:

    IanB2 said:

    ..

    Is it very windy there?
    Hardly any wind at all. Despite the BBC forecast, the first clouds I have seen for a week, and right up here even the occasional very light shower
    In other cloud based news.
    https://x.com/naomirwolf/status/1946618435548373115
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,224

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    I have been a member of the LibDems for 12 or so years, and there is real consultation of the members over issues, so internal democracy is possible.
    How did the consultation over student fees go? The wording of the Pledge was:

    "I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament and to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative.”
    Good point. The Paul Marshall Orange Bookers were in charge. It was an exceptional betrayal of trust.
    The party lost 37 of its 43 seats in the next election in 2015.
    I resigned from the party, and I'm a very active activist.
    I hope the lesson has been learned by the Lib Dem leadership.
    Also about coalitions.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,108
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    Your point here becomes borderline incoherent. You don't want to be a member because they don't get a say, yet you're appalled at the say they do have.

    As for Tory members electing poor leaders, as I've reminded you several times, they are choosing between a shortlist of two presented to them by the PCP. In IDS's case they rejected someone completely ideologically opposed to the settled Eurosceptical view of the wider party, and in Truss's case they rejected Sunak, who want on to lead the Tories to their most crushing defeat in living memory. Sunak was shit on that campaign trail (as he was in Government, and in the GE) and any sensible electorate would have rejected him for the complete dud he was. It's a deeply flawed system, but it's idiotic (as surely you know) to highlight the members choosing one candidate from two, when the MPs have selected 2 from many.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,291
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    I have been a member of the LibDems for 12 or so years, and there is real consultation of the members over issues, so internal democracy is possible.
    How did the consultation over student fees go? The wording of the Pledge was:

    "I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament and to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative.”
    Good point. The Paul Marshall Orange Bookers were in charge. It was an exceptional betrayal of trust.
    The party lost 37 of its 43 seats in the next election in 2015.
    I resigned from the party, and I'm a very active activist.
    I hope the lesson has been learned by the Lib Dem leadership.
    Also about coalitions.
    I wasn't 'active' by then although I had been from about 1970 until 1995. The student fees volte face was a shocker.
    To be fair, I never liked Clegg very much; preferred Kennedy or Campbell, particularly the former. If only he hadn't turned to drink!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,108
    Battlebus said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Not on X so can't read the replies but the advantage of wind is that it blows at night. And more in the winter time when energy consumption is likely to be highest. And although solar may still be cheaper the transmission costs from, eg, the Sahara to here would be massive. Given where we are on the globe I think we have made the right choice. If anyone wants to worry about the base cost of our electricity for manufacturing it is nuclear they should be worrying about, not wind.
    Boswall's thread points out the key engineering issue of the lifetime costs of any engineered product (for those of you that haven't had to deal with it). PV is simpler, cheaper and less lifetime costs from an installation, running and maintenance point of view.

    Against this (as alluded to in the transmission cost) is that solar is in the wrong place for the UK. But if the North Africans decide to set up a grid with the Southern Europeans, you could see an energy cascade northwards. They will have to allow for the NIMBYs that don't like HV transmission lines in their area - a real issue in the UK.

    It's a useful contribution to the debate and domestic energy storage (Tesla batteries or even a Tesla) looks like another additional area for future building regulation, if GCH is to be banned. I say that as someone who made their living out of the polluting coal power stations and the even more polluting nuclear.
    I have no comment to make on wind - people know my view on that.

    But I will say more generally that UK energy policy is in my view heavily led by lobbyists and interest groups - as well as the overall direction of travel being to tick emissions boxes, not generate plentiful, inexpensive energy.

    Therefore it is entirely predictable that we would choose the least efficient form of power generation, because greater the inefficiency, the greater money someone is making out of it. We tend to think of 'Government waste' just going into a metaphorical toilet, and nobody would mind if it stopped. Of course, that isn't the case. It actually goes into another organisation's pockets, and those organisations have the resources and influence to keep it that way.

    I am not being fatalistic - I really do believe the next Government will start the journey of serious reform that the country needs. But they need to understand broadly that there will be fierce opposition from those who like the current set up - not just for ideological reasons but for profound commercial ones.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,149
    edited 9:13AM

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Tacticals versus Reform will become increasingly effective the further below a national 30% Reform drop. If they are over 30% nationally then it will need to be extreme levels of tactical voting to stop them (if the rest are in the ballpark of current levels)
    If they get 27% (say) I think they'll lose many many seats to a tactical push
    Perhaps but in Canada this year Poilevre's Conservatives got 41% but even then still lost due to massive tactical voting for Carney's Liberals who got 43%
    Well, yes, that's why I said it would require extreme levels of tactical voting - and in Canada there is only one other party (outside Quebec) with any sort of decent support to farm. Its like the UK pre 2015. Here we have Lab, Con, LD and Green at/near 10% or higher
    In the 89 Labour seats where Reform came second, there are not many Lib Dem and Green voters left to squeeze. There are, however, quite a lot of Conservatives, who would more likely break for Reform than for Labour.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,902
    For what it is worth my feedback on the new format ( @rcs1000 & @TheScreamingEagles ) :

    Laptop is fine except what you type in the comment box is a very small font, but at least it is easily readable

    The mobile version is pretty close to unusable for me. The comments are clear but I have to zoom in a huge amount to see who has posted or to respond or like. When I say the font is small I'm talking micro dot level.

    Others don't seem to be having a problem. Is this some set up issue for me. Was fine before.

    On another point: @hyufd as previously mentioned, I sent a private message to you last week. I assume you haven't seen it. I also note from private messages I have received in the last few weeks you no longer get an email notification of a private message having been received. That was useful.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,471
    edited 9:27AM

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    Your point here becomes borderline incoherent. You don't want to be a member because they don't get a say, yet you're appalled at the say they do have.

    As for Tory members electing poor leaders, as I've reminded you several times, they are choosing between a shortlist of two presented to them by the PCP. In IDS's case they rejected someone completely ideologically opposed to the settled Eurosceptical view of the wider party, and in Truss's case they rejected Sunak, who want on to lead the Tories to their most crushing defeat in living memory. Sunak was shit on that campaign trail (as he was in Government, and in the GE) and any sensible electorate would have rejected him for the complete dud he was. It's a deeply flawed system, but it's idiotic (as surely you know) to highlight the members choosing one candidate from two, when the MPs have selected 2 from many.
    Many of the Conservative MPs who thought they were being oh-so-clever in the games they played on who to put to the membership were shown to be complete fuckwits when they were booted out by the voters as a consequence of that twattishness.

    They have a lifetime away from power to think on their actions. I hope every day stings like chilli in the eye.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,136
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very good thread, which deals at some length with an issue that bothers me, too.

    It's not that wind power isn't (probably) the UK's best option for a large slug of our energy mix; it's that it's going to be deeply uncompetitive against year round solar, in countries closer to the equator, at prices of 0.5 cents per kWh.

    There are counter arguments, but I'd be interested in what posters like @rcs1000 think.

    1. Wind and solar both keep me up at night, but for opposite reasons. Solar works and is winning the global race, Britain simply sits too far north to benefit. Britain is betting on wind instead, yet wind lacks the very traits that makes solar work...
    https://x.com/RobertBoswall/status/1946513592225792475

    Good morning PB!

    That is a very good thread. Kind of a model of what a great X thread can be: lucid, sharp, pointed, brisk, highly educational. Like a presentation online, illustrated with graphs

    And yes: looks like we need nuclear
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,367
    All these Norwegians running up this mountain are making me feel old. Especially the ones that are also old. Time to have a fiddle with the phone...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,291

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    Your point here becomes borderline incoherent. You don't want to be a member because they don't get a say, yet you're appalled at the say they do have.

    As for Tory members electing poor leaders, as I've reminded you several times, they are choosing between a shortlist of two presented to them by the PCP. In IDS's case they rejected someone completely ideologically opposed to the settled Eurosceptical view of the wider party, and in Truss's case they rejected Sunak, who want on to lead the Tories to their most crushing defeat in living memory. Sunak was shit on that campaign trail (as he was in Government, and in the GE) and any sensible electorate would have rejected him for the complete dud he was. It's a deeply flawed system, but it's idiotic (as surely you know) to highlight the members choosing one candidate from two, when the MPs have selected 2 from many.
    Many of the Conservative MPs who thought they were being oh-so-clever in the games they played on who to put to the membership were shown to be complete fuckwits when they were booted out by the voters as a consequence of that twattishness.

    They have a lifetime away from power to think on their actions. I hope every day stings like chilli in the eye.

    No need to be unkind; I'm sure the emotions they felt, first as the results were read out by the Returning Officer, and later when the shock of 'job' and position loss sunk in were penalty enough.

    I've always thought it was notable that only (I think) Ed Davey of the 43 LibDem MP's defeated in 2015 tried to get back into Parliament.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,748
    edited 9:48AM
    I'm off, just as soon as I can find how to logout with this amazing new layout...

    Edited: ah, top of the page, click avatar, and there we are.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,136
    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,291
    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I reckon that, fool or not, that's Class A twaddle at the moment.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,888
    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Sounds like a complete waste of time unless Rayner has ruled herself out.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,352
    edited 9:56AM
    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    ‘I’ve had enough of the pie faced centrist in hock to lobbyists and running scared of anything vaguely progressive. Who we need is Wes Streeting!’

    Said no one except Wes Streeting.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,136

    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    ‘I’ve had enough of the pie faced centrist in hock to lobbyists and running scared of anything vaguely progressive. Who we need is Wes Streeting!’

    Said no one except Wes Streeting.
    Indeed

    Replies under the tweet point out that Streeting has a majority sub-1000 (is that true? Haven’t checked) and is highly likely to lose his seat next GE
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,108
    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Wes Streeting was (apparently) always the intended PM after Starmer had booted the left out whilst in opposition.

    So if this is true, it feels more choreography than real rebellion. That said, I struggle to see it as anything other than an improvement.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,707

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Peter Hitchens in todays Mail on Sunday

    Of course votes at 16 will make for a more easily manipulated, more gullible electorate. But excuse me a moment. Labour said it was going to introduce this, quite clearly, in its manifesto last year. Yet millions of grown-up voters used their ballots to help Labour into power, directly or indirectly. They’re in no position to sneer at 16-year-olds for being too immature, impulsive and easily led to be allowed to vote.

    That's not quite fair.

    Of course they played a part, but it wasn't just immaturity, impulsivity and gullibility Millions of people voted for Labour not because they were manipulated and gullible, but out of their own self-interest.

    Benefit-scroungers, public sector workers, net zero nutters and trade unionists expecting huge pay rises are obvious examples.
    Under FPTP what you vote against is at least as important as anything you may want to vote for... and whatever else people were doing, they were voting against the Conservative party, and are continuing to do so.
    Tactical voting will likely be against Reform more than the Tories next time.

    Speaking of Reform, Farage now on Kuenssberg
    Great to see a fresh new face on the BBC.
    The crown jowels so to speak.


    That's such a Guardianista take, though.

    It's invariably a white middle-class man saying how he's different to all those other white middle-class men.

    It'd be nice if we all just collectively got over this diversity dogma. It's out of date, if it was ever in date.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,367
    edited 10:13AM

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    Your point here becomes borderline incoherent. You don't want to be a member because they don't get a say, yet you're appalled at the say they do have.

    As for Tory members electing poor leaders, as I've reminded you several times, they are choosing between a shortlist of two presented to them by the PCP. In IDS's case they rejected someone completely ideologically opposed to the settled Eurosceptical view of the wider party, and in Truss's case they rejected Sunak, who want on to lead the Tories to their most crushing defeat in living memory. Sunak was shit on that campaign trail (as he was in Government, and in the GE) and any sensible electorate would have rejected him for the complete dud he was. It's a deeply flawed system, but it's idiotic (as surely you know) to highlight the members choosing one candidate from two, when the MPs have selected 2 from many.
    Many of the Conservative MPs who thought they were being oh-so-clever in the games they played on who to put to the membership were shown to be complete fuckwits when they were booted out by the voters as a consequence of that twattishness.

    They have a lifetime away from power to think on their actions. I hope every day stings like chilli in the eye.

    The additional problem is that a fair bunch of them, led by Shapps, look like they are going to try and win their seats back. Whereas the party desperately needs a fresh start, not the same failed retreads putting themselves up again.

    Reform doesn't need Tory retreads either
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,707
    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Labour faithful will view Wes Streeting as the Tories viewed Ken Clarke.

    Not happening.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,707

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic (some mistake shurely?)

    What hypothetical polls do tell us is that significant sections of the voting public are not happy with what is on offer from existing parties.

    With such multiple different political currents around we either need an electoral system that treats multiple parties fairly, or genuine democracy within the major parties. Tories, Labour and Reform are all led very much top down, with little or no grass roots say on policy or direction.

    And thank the Lord for that. If you think the leadership are delusional, stupid and plain ignorant, have a look at the membership. Who twice voted for Corbyn. Who voted for IDS and Liz Truss. Who support Farage no matter what. The idea that the membership of any of these parties should be let near policy is frankly frightening.
    Policy shouldn't purely be based on activists, but neither should their opinions be ignored outside leadership contests. The same too for backbenchers.

    I haven't been a member of a political party for more than 30 years. I just never see the point. They really don't care what you think. You have no right to even be listened to. You are just a cashpoint for other peoples' ambitions. The one thing you get in most parties (not Farage's vehicles, of course) is the right to vote for the leadership. And the membership have proven themselves to be consistently useless at that.
    Your point here becomes borderline incoherent. You don't want to be a member because they don't get a say, yet you're appalled at the say they do have.

    As for Tory members electing poor leaders, as I've reminded you several times, they are choosing between a shortlist of two presented to them by the PCP. In IDS's case they rejected someone completely ideologically opposed to the settled Eurosceptical view of the wider party, and in Truss's case they rejected Sunak, who want on to lead the Tories to their most crushing defeat in living memory. Sunak was shit on that campaign trail (as he was in Government, and in the GE) and any sensible electorate would have rejected him for the complete dud he was. It's a deeply flawed system, but it's idiotic (as surely you know) to highlight the members choosing one candidate from two, when the MPs have selected 2 from many.
    Many of the Conservative MPs who thought they were being oh-so-clever in the games they played on who to put to the membership were shown to be complete fuckwits when they were booted out by the voters as a consequence of that twattishness.

    They have a lifetime away from power to think on their actions. I hope every day stings like chilli in the eye.

    Why do we think Conservative MPs are any more sensible than the members?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,367
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    ‘I’ve had enough of the pie faced centrist in hock to lobbyists and running scared of anything vaguely progressive. Who we need is Wes Streeting!’

    Said no one except Wes Streeting.
    Indeed

    Replies under the tweet point out that Streeting has a majority sub-1000 (is that true? Haven’t checked) and is highly likely to lose his seat next GE
    The first is true, the second probably not.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,529
    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Though poetic justice that he is hoist by his own Petard
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,707
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Fpt
    Trump’s attempt to shut down the big pal of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein story seems to be going well.
    Elon appears to be entirely relaxed about everyone saying anything they like about ex best buddy DJT on X/Twitter.

    now trending 'Is Donald Trump a genuine paedophile?'
    While there is a certain schadenfreude about this, it really doesn't change my mind about the toxicity of Social Media mobs.

    This sort of toxic discourse is wrong no matter who the target is.
    Terry Christian has accused Enoch Powell of being a paedophile dozens of times recently on twitter. I don’t know the legal position on things like this but, if they were made aware, I’d be surprised if Powell’s daughters didn’t take some kind of action.
    Cannae libel the dead I think is the legal position.
    Although @TSE has frequent goes at Hannibal, Cannae notwithstanding.
    There were only 14 years between Cannae and Zama, as I recall.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,940
    The Times reports that hundreds of asylum seekers per week are, after having claimed asylum and benefits in Britain, crossing into Ireland to simultaneously claim asylum and benefits there.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-asylum-seekers-caught-double-benefits-68krzd9cj
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,291

    The Times reports that hundreds of asylum seekers per week are, after having claimed asylum and benefits in Britain, crossing into Ireland to simultaneously claim asylum and benefits there.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-asylum-seekers-caught-double-benefits-68krzd9cj

    You can have one or the other but not both, surely!
    And if they leave the UK, isn't that a bonus?
  • vikvik Posts: 551

    Leon said:

    Warning, this guy on X is a lefty fool and often talks twaddle, however it’s Sunday and it’s entertaining gossip and I’m hurkle-durkling


    “I'm told a potential Labour leadership bid from Wes Streeting is currently shaping up, with Shabana Mahmood broached as campaign chair”

    https://x.com/david__osland/status/1946589573733023782?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Labour faithful will view Wes Streeting as the Tories viewed Ken Clarke.

    Not happening.
    Streeting is Number 3 choice of Labour party members (after Burnham & Rayner) in a Survation poll of next Labour leader after Starmer.

    https://labourlist.org/2025/06/angela-rayner-andy-burnham-labour-leadership-labourlist-survation-poll/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,136

    The Times reports that hundreds of asylum seekers per week are, after having claimed asylum and benefits in Britain, crossing into Ireland to simultaneously claim asylum and benefits there.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-asylum-seekers-caught-double-benefits-68krzd9cj

    You can have one or the other but not both, surely!
    And if they leave the UK, isn't that a bonus?
    Read the article. They then come back and shuttle between the two countries

    We are utter saps. Just end asylum now. Scrap the whole system and start mass deportation
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,728
    Leon said:

    The Times reports that hundreds of asylum seekers per week are, after having claimed asylum and benefits in Britain, crossing into Ireland to simultaneously claim asylum and benefits there.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-asylum-seekers-caught-double-benefits-68krzd9cj

    You can have one or the other but not both, surely!
    And if they leave the UK, isn't that a bonus?
    Read the article. They then come back and shuttle between the two countries

    We are utter saps. Just end asylum now. Scrap the whole system and start mass deportation
    Start with you
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