Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
I note that in the Lebanese Parliament, which Elects its MPs as half representing the "Christian" communities, and half representing the "Muslim" communities, the Druze are included in the Muslim half - and that it is reasonable to read hat across. As per Article 24 of the Lebanese Constitution. So I'm inclined to think that the interviewee was on fairly firm ground, and @Leon is a little fixated on a technical-sounding detail - Bart style .
There are 18 officially recognized religious groups: five Muslim groups (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Alawite, and Ismaili), 12 Christian groups (Maronite, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Copt, evangelical Protestant, and Roman Catholic), and Jews. Religious groups not recognized by the government include Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus, several Protestant groups, and the Church of Jesus Christ. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/lebanon
So Anglicans not recognised as Christian then by Lebanon unless they are evangelical Protestants
"Evangelical" means Lutherans, and under the Porvoo declaration that includes Anglicans. It does not mean the megachurches of the US with their unpleasant snake oil salesmen, unless they are legally affiliated to a recognised church.
Anglo Catholic Anglicans are not evangelical on any definition. It is a Catholic but Reformed church
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Best look into his links to the IDF before believing his so called honest reporting .
Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
I note that in the Lebanese Parliament, which Elects its MPs as half representing the "Christian" communities, and half representing the "Muslim" communities, the Druze are included in the Muslim half - and that it is reasonable to read hat across. As per Article 24 of the Lebanese Constitution. So I'm inclined to think that the interviewee was on fairly firm ground, and @Leon is a little fixated on a technical-sounding detail - Bart style .
There are 18 officially recognized religious groups: five Muslim groups (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Alawite, and Ismaili), 12 Christian groups (Maronite, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Copt, evangelical Protestant, and Roman Catholic), and Jews. Religious groups not recognized by the government include Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus, several Protestant groups, and the Church of Jesus Christ. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/lebanon
So Anglicans not recognised as Christian then by Lebanon unless they are evangelical Protestants
"Evangelical" means Lutherans, and under the Porvoo declaration that includes Anglicans. It does not mean the megachurches of the US with their unpleasant snake oil salesmen, unless they are legally affiliated to a recognised church.
Anglo Catholic Anglicans are not evangelical on any definition. It is a Catholic but Reformed church
But are you a CATHOLIC Anglican or a PROTESTANT Anglican?
We all know the solution to this spies crisis, to activate PB's own Agent Postman 47....
Well that would be the case, but the Russians own at least one small dog. All the postmen (our great enterprise) are therefore not likely to be available for active service.
Elite postmen (and women) reduce a barking, attacking XXXXXXL Bully to a quivering heap with a single gesture.
Bit like elite teachers can reduce a class of 30 fighting children to order with an eyebrow.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
After the "Women in Burkas are a security threat to the UK", earlier this week she put out a video about "Violence and crime in Greenway Road, Runcorn?" I recently spoke with business owners and residents on Greenway Road. Yet another example of HMOs packed with illegal immigrants.
Now we have "B*ll*cks, lady" coming in from several directions in the local community:
1 - Residents of 30-40 years' standing saying "Nope". 2 - A group of about 35 locals putting out a joint photograph to say it's not like that, it's clean and peaceful and a lovely place to be. 3 - Local churchwarden of the parish church on the street, teaching assistant, pointing out that local HMOs are "mainly White British", writing an open letter of refutation on behalf of the community. It takes quite a lot to get them involved. 4 - Local Police PCC saying 'we have no regular such reports, nor do residents report such a concern". Local Chiref Inspector says it is a safe place. https://www.runcornandwidnesworld.co.uk/news/25320701.residents-hit-back-mp-claims-street-blighted-crime/
Pochin has doubled down, and attacked most of them.
I think she's queering her pitch (or patch), and that coming out with this kind of stuff is not going to help her at the next Election. I can see it perhaps working for Lee Anderson in Ashfield, because he is a real local who has been here nearly as long as I have had links and would have gone and found out before having his rant. I can't see being a bollocks-merchant working for Pochin there.
Do Reform UK Central put out template press releases with gaps to fill in?
"local churchwarden"
lol
Remember that minor hooh-hah that Kemi Badenoch caused when she said that Liberal Democrat candidates were often somebody who is good at fixing their church roof. And … the people in the community like them. People like and trust churchwardens. They represent the pillar-of-the-community virtue that most of us would like to have, but are a bit too lazy to exercise. Sometimes too virtuous, too trusting, I'll save you time by saying naive and wet.
You can (and will) lol all you like. But one of the risks for Reform is the perception that they are bad people who most people don't want to be like. And in electoral politics, that matters.
lol
The lol is correct.
Politics has changed so so much in the last decade. Not least because the quality of our discourse has deteriorated so much.
The airwar is now 95% of the battle. Individual candidates, outside of by elections, are only likely to make a couple of % point difference except in the oddest of seats (i.e. Corbz).
Hence McMurdock being elected for Reform in Basildon. Reform voters are generally voting for Farage or against the establishment, not for individual candidates, though a bad incumbent Reform MP would be an exception.
The other thing that helped McMurdock was the very close votes for the big three. 30.8 percent was a very low winning percentage. Only twleve were lower in England, and that included some weird ones like SW Norfolk and Blackburn.
Likely to be a lot more of those next time unless the polling shifts dramatically. A hung parliament would be the only fair outcome really
Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
Don’t you think that point is more important than quibbling over syntax?
Thanks for the correction; I hadn't actually listened to it. They are still not "then Muslim", though. They are very clear - to the point of being exclusionary - that their religion is absolutely distinct from any of its near neighbours (with which it has various prophets in common).
The point about the aims of the Israeli intervention is spot on, though.
@MattW noted that they are classified as Muslims under the Lebanese constitution (obviously a simplification but that’s the way it works sometimes)
Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
I note that in the Lebanese Parliament, which Elects its MPs as half representing the "Christian" communities, and half representing the "Muslim" communities, the Druze are included in the Muslim half - and that it is reasonable to read hat across. As per Article 24 of the Lebanese Constitution. So I'm inclined to think that the interviewee was on fairly firm ground, and @Leon is a little fixated on a technical-sounding detail - Bart style .
There are 18 officially recognized religious groups: five Muslim groups (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Alawite, and Ismaili), 12 Christian groups (Maronite, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Copt, evangelical Protestant, and Roman Catholic), and Jews. Religious groups not recognized by the government include Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus, several Protestant groups, and the Church of Jesus Christ. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/lebanon
So Anglicans not recognised as Christian then by Lebanon unless they are evangelical Protestants
"Evangelical" means Lutherans, and under the Porvoo declaration that includes Anglicans. It does not mean the megachurches of the US with their unpleasant snake oil salesmen, unless they are legally affiliated to a recognised church.
Anglo Catholic Anglicans are not evangelical on any definition. It is a Catholic but Reformed church
Lutherans too talk about a "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church", still Protestant though.
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Which one ?
It’s arguable that the end of the Civil War (UK) saw
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
I note that in the Lebanese Parliament, which Elects its MPs as half representing the "Christian" communities, and half representing the "Muslim" communities, the Druze are included in the Muslim half - and that it is reasonable to read hat across. As per Article 24 of the Lebanese Constitution. So I'm inclined to think that the interviewee was on fairly firm ground, and @Leon is a little fixated on a technical-sounding detail - Bart style .
There are 18 officially recognized religious groups: five Muslim groups (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Alawite, and Ismaili), 12 Christian groups (Maronite, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Copt, evangelical Protestant, and Roman Catholic), and Jews. Religious groups not recognized by the government include Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus, several Protestant groups, and the Church of Jesus Christ. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/lebanon
So Anglicans not recognised as Christian then by Lebanon unless they are evangelical Protestants
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
And you trust the expert to not just be a recycler of what's on the internet?
Israeli Prime Minister @Netanyahu and Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa @SyPresidency supported by the U.S.A. @SecRubio have agreed to a ceasefire embraced by Türkiye, Jordan and its neighbors. We call upon Druze, Bedouins, and Sunnis to put down their weapons and together with other minorities build a new and united Syrian identity in peace and prosperity with its neighbors. https://x.com/USAMBTurkiye/status/1946333767918080341
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
Well, if the EXPERTS at the world-renowned Frank Booth Foundation have any better data/figures, I'm all ears!
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Which one ?
It’s arguable that the end of the Civil War (UK) saw
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
Ah, but are you a ROYALIST Moderate, or a PARLIAMENTARY Moderate?
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
And you trust the expert to not just be a recycler of what's on the internet?
Well that's a matter of whether we believe it is still possible for someone to be an expert. You have to assess the credibility of their argument. I suppose you could say anyone should be able to do it and let people judge the merits of their case.
I haven't even see a well reasoned twitter thread implying genocide. The whole movement feels intellectually redundant.
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
Or indeed of any number of other countries in the Middle East and North Africa.
You would have thought that the penny might have dropped with the powers that be at some point. Not just us, but also the USA, Russia, France, etc etc.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
And you trust the expert to not just be a recycler of what's on the internet?
Well that's a matter of whether we believe it is still possible for someone to be an expert. You have to assess the credibility of their argument. I suppose you could say anyone should be able to do it and let people judge the merits of their case.
I haven't even see a well reasoned twitter thread implying genocide. The whole movement feels intellectually redundant.
73,601 dead is, very approximately, NINE Srebrenicas OR 216 Lidices, ergo, it IS a genocide.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
I think votes for 16 and 17 year olds will backfire on Labour anyway. I wouldn't be surprised to if Reform wins a plurality of their votes by 2029. They're already at ~20%, it's only 5-6% swing from Labour to get into the lead and younger people are much more susceptible to the YouTube content journey that the Trump campaign used to such great effect in 2024. The latter has already started, there's so many right wing young UK commentators on YT Who are absolutely brilliant at exploiting the algorithm. 4 more years of this and we could easily see Reform get above 30% among young people who are stuck in their parents house because rent is so high and they can't find jobs but see illegal immigrants everywhere being subsidised by the state.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
Clearly you have swallowed fully the IDF and Netenyahu portrayal of events . And try and hide behind “ politically motivated charities “ . Why do you think the Israeli government has barred foreign journalists from Gaza ?
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
And you trust the expert to not just be a recycler of what's on the internet?
Well that's a matter of whether we believe it is still possible for someone to be an expert. You have to assess the credibility of their argument. I suppose you could say anyone should be able to do it and let people judge the merits of their case.
I haven't even see a well reasoned twitter thread implying genocide. The whole movement feels intellectually redundant.
To be fair have you ever seen a "well reasoned twitter thread"? On anything?
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
Netenyahu . Because it served his political aspirations to make Hamas strong .
Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
I note that in the Lebanese Parliament, which Elects its MPs as half representing the "Christian" communities, and half representing the "Muslim" communities, the Druze are included in the Muslim half - and that it is reasonable to read hat across. As per Article 24 of the Lebanese Constitution. So I'm inclined to think that the interviewee was on fairly firm ground, and @Leon is a little fixated on a technical-sounding detail - Bart style .
There are 18 officially recognized religious groups: five Muslim groups (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Alawite, and Ismaili), 12 Christian groups (Maronite, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Copt, evangelical Protestant, and Roman Catholic), and Jews. Religious groups not recognized by the government include Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus, several Protestant groups, and the Church of Jesus Christ. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/lebanon
So Anglicans not recognised as Christian then by Lebanon unless they are evangelical Protestants
"Evangelical" means Lutherans, and under the Porvoo declaration that includes Anglicans. It does not mean the megachurches of the US with their unpleasant snake oil salesmen, unless they are legally affiliated to a recognised church.
Anglo Catholic Anglicans are not evangelical on any definition. It is a Catholic but Reformed church
Lutherans too talk about a "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church", still Protestant though.
"Catholic" in this sense in the sense of being Christ's universal invisible church. Obviously the sect can claim this, and all other sects in error, even if a minority of one.
Similarly "Evangelical" means spreading the gospel, and willing to take converts, so once again pretty much open for all Christian sects to claim.
The common usage of both words deviates quite considerably from these technical definitions of course.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
And you trust the expert to not just be a recycler of what's on the internet?
Well that's a matter of whether we believe it is still possible for someone to be an expert. You have to assess the credibility of their argument. I suppose you could say anyone should be able to do it and let people judge the merits of their case.
I haven't even see a well reasoned twitter thread implying genocide. The whole movement feels intellectually redundant.
73,601 dead is, very approximately, NINE Srebrenicas OR 216 Lidices, ergo, it IS a genocide.
Again you are assuming the figures are correct and presumably you include the killing of Hamas combatants as part of the genocide? Have the Ukrainians committed a genocide against the Russians? Bear in mind that Hamas stated they would commit 07/10 again and again if possible.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
And you trust the expert to not just be a recycler of what's on the internet?
Well that's a matter of whether we believe it is still possible for someone to be an expert. You have to assess the credibility of their argument. I suppose you could say anyone should be able to do it and let people judge the merits of their case.
I haven't even see a well reasoned twitter thread implying genocide. The whole movement feels intellectually redundant.
73,601 dead is, very approximately, NINE Srebrenicas OR 216 Lidices, ergo, it IS a genocide.
It is, very approximately, even if you believe those BS figures 0.02 Vietnams. Ergo, a war.
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
I wonder if the best thing to have done would have been to partition Afghanistan between the surrounding countries.
Attempting to impose 'western values' on a country where the only unifying factor was Islam was doomed to failure but that never stopped the likes of Fraser Nelson cheering the attempt to do so - in the same ways their predecessors cheered attempts to impose 'Christian values' in the 19th century.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
Netenyahu . Because it served his political aspirations to make Hamas strong .
He's certainly culpable. But what about Iran? What about Qatar? What about all the international charities and aid agencies that were present in Gaza whilst it was going on? Not interested in any of those?
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
And you trust the expert to not just be a recycler of what's on the internet?
Well that's a matter of whether we believe it is still possible for someone to be an expert. You have to assess the credibility of their argument. I suppose you could say anyone should be able to do it and let people judge the merits of their case.
I haven't even see a well reasoned twitter thread implying genocide. The whole movement feels intellectually redundant.
73,601 dead is, very approximately, NINE Srebrenicas OR 216 Lidices, ergo, it IS a genocide.
That number includes enemy combatants, even Hamas has admitted their propaganda number includes their fighters which is estimated to be well over half the dead. Gaza has a civilian population of well over 3m of which ~30k civilians have been killed during the war started by Hamas. Is a 1% loss of civilian life really genocide? On a very technical reading I'd suggest it's not. Is the loss fo 30k civilian lives regrettable? Absolutely it is and it is regrettable that Hamas started a war which has resulted in these lives being lost. They are utterly defeated yet until they absolutely surrender Israel has the right to continue the onslaught until their enemies surrender. It's Hamas that don't care for human life, they have a choice to surrender and save civilians or to fight on and allow Israel to keep going. It seems as though even middle eastern patience with Hamas is wearing thin there are rumours that Israel and Saudi Arabian talks on normalising diplomatic relations are going to resume soon. If that's true then it's all over for Hamas, the rest of the middle east will fall in line as soon as Saudi signs a deal.
As some PBers have noted, I am generally quite quick to assert intellectual superiority in this forum. In my defence I have little choice, as I am obviously smarter
However I must - if I’m honest - confess some recent and contrary evidence
For about the last ten years I’ve bemoaned the fact I need a tumble drier in my one bed flat, as really the only place for it is in the bedroom. And it’s ugly and intrusive and noisy and all that
Recently I got rid of it having decided: what the hell - I’ll dry everything on a rack
But then I went to wash some clothes and I noticed that my washing machine (which I bought about six years ago) says it is a washer/dryer. I literally never noticed before
I just tried it and it dries perfectly. Indeed better. I never needed a tumble dryer in the first place
Perhaps the reality is that I’m dumb as fuck. I conclude that I am therefore ideally suited for politics and I will be a parliamentary candidate at the next General Election
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
Yes, impressive engineering.
Hamas have pretty outstanding resilience too. Coming up for two years of total blockade from land, sea and air, total observation. Every bit of Gaza seems to have been occupied by the IDF at some point, yet they still it seems have hostages and military capability requiring the IDF to massively bombard the remaining rubble.
In military terms that is a pretty astonishing performance for a besigied city.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
Clearly you have swallowed fully the IDF and Netenyahu portrayal of events . And try and hide behind “ politically motivated charities “ . Why do you think the Israeli government has barred foreign journalists from Gaza ?
This bit isn't as sinister as it is often made out. Journalists are banned from the front line in Ukraine. They are given supervised tours but not to the front line. In Ukraine they color code zones and basically aren't allowed near the trenches were the fighting is actually taking place now. Which is also the case in Gaza.
Early days of Ukraine war they did allow journalists near the fighting and we saw a load of them got ambushed and shot at. It might make for great TV, but its a nightmare for Ukrainian army.
I heard an ex special forces guy who works for Henry Jackson who has been into Gaza and Lebanon since the start of the war, say that they are shit scared of disaster of journalists getting taken hostage. Also a lot of journalists are worried about it too. Israel gave them permission to go to parts of Northern Israel / South Lebanon border and virtually none took it.
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Which one ?
It’s arguable that the end of the Civil War (UK) saw
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
The Army was no great thing then. The Navy was far more important.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
Clearly you have swallowed fully the IDF and Netenyahu portrayal of events . And try and hide behind “ politically motivated charities “ . Why do you think the Israeli government has barred foreign journalists from Gaza ?
Because the Israeli government is "politically motivated"?
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
The LU network is 250 miles long, serving 272 stations.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
Clearly you have swallowed fully the IDF and Netenyahu portrayal of events . And try and hide behind “ politically motivated charities “ . Why do you think the Israeli government has barred foreign journalists from Gaza ?
Because the Israeli government is "politically motivated"?
Well yeah. Every government is. I wouldn't believe their word at face value. But I wouldn't trust the NGOs either. And when they repeatedly get caught out telling porkies on a massive scale (15,000 children will die in the next 48 hours) I start to become pretty cynical.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
Netenyahu . Because it served his political aspirations to make Hamas strong .
He's certainly culpable. But what about Iran? What about Qatar? What about all the international charities and aid agencies that were present in Gaza whilst it was going on? Not interested in any of those?
Qatar and Iran are of course guilty . International charities and aid agencies were simply trying to help Gazans and many of their workers have been slaughtered .
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
I wonder if the best thing to have done would have been to partition Afghanistan between the surrounding countries.
Attempting to impose 'western values' on a country where the only unifying factor was Islam was doomed to failure but that never stopped the likes of Fraser Nelson cheering the attempt to do so - in the same ways their predecessors cheered attempts to impose 'Christian values' in the 19th century.
Divide it between Pakistan and Iran? Good luck with that!
You could argue that if anyone's to blame for the current situation it's the old Soviet Union. Their invasion in 1979 triggered the whole mess.
As some PBers have noted, I am generally quite quick to assert intellectual superiority in this forum. In my defence I have little choice, as I am obviously smarter
However I must - if I’m honest - confess some recent and contrary evidence
For about the last ten years I’ve bemoaned the fact I need a tumble drier in my one bed flat, as really the only place for it is in the bedroom. And it’s ugly and intrusive and noisy and all that
Recently I got rid of it having decided: what the hell - I’ll dry everything on a rack
But then I went to wash some clothes and I noticed that my washing machine (which I bought about six years ago) says it is a washer/dryer. I literally never noticed before
I just tried it and it dries perfectly. Indeed better. I never needed a tumble dryer in the first place
Perhaps the reality is that I’m dumb as fuck. I conclude that I am therefore ideally suited for politics and I will be a parliamentary candidate at the next General Election
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
The LU network is 250 miles long, serving 272 stations.
Over 80 million delays each year. An estimated 125,000 cancelled services, 400 million work days lost in the private sector, and possibly one or two in the public sector too.
(Actually the service is pretty good considering the often rather old kit, and I invented the numbers above)
Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
Don’t you think that point is more important than quibbling over syntax?
Thanks for the correction; I hadn't actually listened to it. They are still not "then Muslim", though. They are very clear - to the point of being exclusionary - that their religion is absolutely distinct from any of its near neighbours (with which it has various prophets in common).
The point about the aims of the Israeli intervention is spot on, though.
@MattW noted that they are classified as Muslims under the Lebanese constitution (obviously a simplification but that’s the way it works sometimes)
In such a situation a focus on core beliefs, and not on "edges" and "fences" has significant value.
I am nominally a confirmed member of the Church of England and grew up near the Thorntons factory. For both reasons I attach a high value to the concept known as "fudge", and to a "hierarchy of truths", and to a version of Nelson's "I see no ships" (which was actually Admiral Sir Hyde Parker asking a question that left Nelson both options, with little down side).
That middle phrase is borrowed from a book by Archbishop George Carey (of all people) written about Anglican / Roman Catholic reconciliation to identify things we need to really focus on, and things we can choose not to see as primary.
Avoid public transport, apparently it has all stopped
LONDON SAVED FROM HOSEPIPE BAN !!
Greetings from the east London 'burbs.
Tipped it down for a couple of hours earlier this morning, then stopped, then we got hit with a really heavy rain shower just now, but stopped again. Anyway, Mum's garden at least got a good watering.
I have pretty much run out of mainland Norway to go north in.
Indeed Tromso is on its own island, like Portsmouth, dramatically positioned in the ocean fjord with snowcapped mountains behind (rather less like Portsmouth).
No sunset for another week here, and still the sun shines relentlessly down…
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
It’s clear from the devastation that many non Hamas have been killed . It’s also obvious by the daily executions of starving people that the IDF are out of control .
War is hell. I would never doubt that. And of course there are going to be many civilian casualties in urban combat. As for 'daily executions of starving people' I presume that relates to the supposed mass killings at the aid distribution sites, almost none of which are verified. An alternative source of information would be Colonel Richard Kemp, who's been on the ground in Gaza and thinks it's working well. Is he a liar? Well he could be but why should I be more inclined to doubt him than believe the claims of mass numbers of people being gunned down? Not least when there are all sorts of entities interested in seeing the US/Israel aid system fail, from Hamas themselves to the mountain of UN backed NGOs and charities who ought to be facing far more scrutiny than they have done.
Give me a single credible figure not a wikipedia mouthful. A cogent piece by an expert in a few thousands words not the word of UN Agencies and politically motivated charities.
Clearly you have swallowed fully the IDF and Netenyahu portrayal of events . And try and hide behind “ politically motivated charities “ . Why do you think the Israeli government has barred foreign journalists from Gaza ?
This bit isn't as sinister as it is often made out. Journalists are banned from the front line in Ukraine. They are given supervised tours but not to the front line. In Ukraine they color code zones and basically aren't allowed near the trenches were the fighting is actually taking place now. Which is also the case in Gaza.
Early days of Ukraine war they did allow journalists near the fighting and we saw a load of them got ambushed and shot at. It might make for great TV, but its a nightmare for Ukrainian army.
I heard an ex special forces guy who works for Henry Jackson who has been into Gaza and Lebanon since the start of the war, say that they are shit scared of disaster of journalists getting taken hostage. Also a lot of journalists are worried about it too. Israel gave them permission to go to parts of Northern Israel / South Lebanon border and virtually none took it.
Just to add to this point, it was reported (I think the BBC) that Hamas recent tactics have been focused upon trying to take new hostages both alive and dead. They ambushed some IDF soldiers killing several and they immediate tried to take their bodies back down into tunnels. If they can get some soldiers (and it would also be journalists if they were there), they believe it gives them renewed bargaining power.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
Netenyahu . Because it served his political aspirations to make Hamas strong .
He's certainly culpable. But what about Iran? What about Qatar? What about all the international charities and aid agencies that were present in Gaza whilst it was going on? Not interested in any of those?
Qatar and Iran are of course guilty . International charities and aid agencies were simply trying to help Gazans and many of their workers have been slaughtered .
I wonder how many 12,13 and 14 year-old Gazan lads are now lining themselves up as potential members of Hamas to avenge their mothers and sisters?
As some PBers have noted, I am generally quite quick to assert intellectual superiority in this forum. In my defence I have little choice, as I am obviously smarter
However I must - if I’m honest - confess some recent and contrary evidence
For about the last ten years I’ve bemoaned the fact I need a tumble drier in my one bed flat, as really the only place for it is in the bedroom. And it’s ugly and intrusive and noisy and all that
Recently I got rid of it having decided: what the hell - I’ll dry everything on a rack
But then I went to wash some clothes and I noticed that my washing machine (which I bought about six years ago) says it is a washer/dryer. I literally never noticed before
I just tried it and it dries perfectly. Indeed better. I never needed a tumble dryer in the first place
Perhaps the reality is that I’m dumb as fuck. I conclude that I am therefore ideally suited for politics and I will be a parliamentary candidate at the next General Election
Have you noticed that black plastic thing with the buttons that came with your telly? It enables you to change channels without lumbering up from your Parker Knoll to switch over to Antiques Roadshow.
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
Netenyahu . Because it served his political aspirations to make Hamas strong .
He's certainly culpable. But what about Iran? What about Qatar? What about all the international charities and aid agencies that were present in Gaza whilst it was going on? Not interested in any of those?
Netanyahu funded Hamas because he wanted to keep the Palestinians split between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.
When he received intelligence about 7 Oct from his own intelligence services, he ignored it because he thought he had a deal with Hamas. He was mistaken.
Now he is thwarting an inquiry into the failure of the intelligence services (his failure) by prolonging the war as long as he can.
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
I wonder if the best thing to have done would have been to partition Afghanistan between the surrounding countries.
Attempting to impose 'western values' on a country where the only unifying factor was Islam was doomed to failure but that never stopped the likes of Fraser Nelson cheering the attempt to do so - in the same ways their predecessors cheered attempts to impose 'Christian values' in the 19th century.
Divide it between Pakistan and Iran? Good luck with that!
You could argue that if anyone's to blame for the current situation it's the old Soviet Union. Their invasion in 1979 triggered the whole mess.
Between Pakistan and the stans to the north.
Wouldn't the Tajiks of Afghanistan do better joined with the Tajiks of Tajikistan than in a failed state with numerous other ethnicities where the only unifying force was fundamentalist Islam ?
One must wonder whether IDF troops get a bonus for how many Gazans they can kill. Another appalling execution of people waiting for aid. And still the west just sits there doing fxck all. Israel should be sanctioned , all trade should be stopped , including any weapons sales and leaders need to call a spade a spade . Only the most delusional can refute the evidence . A genocide is taking place and the west is complicit .
Sauce?
73,610 dead.
Who's figures are those and how many are Hamas combatants? The fact that we don't even distinguish between Hamas/civilian casualties in this war exemplifies the poverty of debate going on.
If only we knew who started not distinguishing between Hamas and civilian casualties.
That would be Hamas themselves. They control the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide. Civilian casualties of course matter not a jot to them. They've built a network of tunnels bigger than the London Underground that the civilian population are not allowed to access. So they are very good at distinguishing between the two when it matters to them.
'bigger than the London Underground' christ you are gullible
Perhaps I should say longer then.
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
Netenyahu . Because it served his political aspirations to make Hamas strong .
He's certainly culpable. But what about Iran? What about Qatar? What about all the international charities and aid agencies that were present in Gaza whilst it was going on? Not interested in any of those?
Netanyahu funded Hamas because he wanted to keep the Palestinians split between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.
When he received intelligence about 7 Oct from his own intelligence services, he ignored it because he thought he had a deal with Hamas. He was mistaken.
Now he is thwarting an inquiry into the failure of the intelligence services (his failure) by prolonging the war as long as he can.
Our mainstream political/media environment hardly treats Netanyahu as a paragon. But the BBC and others seem to treat the UN and big charities with the kind of regal tone comparable to the coverage of the Monarchy or the Papacy. The UN is just another grubby political organisation.
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
I wonder if the best thing to have done would have been to partition Afghanistan between the surrounding countries.
Attempting to impose 'western values' on a country where the only unifying factor was Islam was doomed to failure but that never stopped the likes of Fraser Nelson cheering the attempt to do so - in the same ways their predecessors cheered attempts to impose 'Christian values' in the 19th century.
Divide it between Pakistan and Iran? Good luck with that!
You could argue that if anyone's to blame for the current situation it's the old Soviet Union. Their invasion in 1979 triggered the whole mess.
Between Pakistan and the stans to the north.
Wouldn't the Tajiks of Afghanistan do better joined with the Tajiks of Tajikistan than in a failed state with numerous other ethnicities where the only unifying force was fundamentalist Islam ?
I don't know how Afghani Tajiks feel, TBH, but I agree it might well be worth a try. And, I suppose, the current border with Pakistan is basically the furthest into the country that the 19th British Army could get without being roundly defeated.
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Which one ?
It’s arguable that the end of the Civil War (UK) saw
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
The Army was no great thing then. The Navy was far more important.
The reason the Army was the first winner was that they had all the power. Parliament was the tail trying to wag the dog. The Navy wasn’t even considered a separate power base.
The Restoration happened because a big chunk of the Army faction joined the Moderates and made a deal with the Royalists.
In early days of Vice News, they had a British bloke who I can't remember his name, who went on crazy missions to the front lines of fighting ISIS and AQ in places like Iraq and Syria. Was some incredible reporting.
"Analysis by the polling organisation More In Common suggests the big winners could be hard-Left figures such as the former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and pro-Gaza independents, who stunned the party by winning four seats at last year’s election.
The research found there are seven Labour seats where the number of 16 and 17-year-olds is bigger than the sitting MP’s majority over a pro-Palestine independent at last year’s election."
In early days of Vice News, they had a British bloke who I can't remember his name, who went on crazy missions to the front lines of fighting ISIS and AQ in places like Iraq and Syria. Was some incredible reporting.
As some PBers have noted, I am generally quite quick to assert intellectual superiority in this forum. In my defence I have little choice, as I am obviously smarter
However I must - if I’m honest - confess some recent and contrary evidence
For about the last ten years I’ve bemoaned the fact I need a tumble drier in my one bed flat, as really the only place for it is in the bedroom. And it’s ugly and intrusive and noisy and all that
Recently I got rid of it having decided: what the hell - I’ll dry everything on a rack
But then I went to wash some clothes and I noticed that my washing machine (which I bought about six years ago) says it is a washer/dryer. I literally never noticed before
I just tried it and it dries perfectly. Indeed better. I never needed a tumble dryer in the first place
Perhaps the reality is that I’m dumb as fuck. I conclude that I am therefore ideally suited for politics and I will be a parliamentary candidate at the next General Election
I am sure Farage would snap you up to stand for Reform against Starmer in Holborn and St Pancras
As some PBers have noted, I am generally quite quick to assert intellectual superiority in this forum. In my defence I have little choice, as I am obviously smarter
However I must - if I’m honest - confess some recent and contrary evidence
For about the last ten years I’ve bemoaned the fact I need a tumble drier in my one bed flat, as really the only place for it is in the bedroom. And it’s ugly and intrusive and noisy and all that
Recently I got rid of it having decided: what the hell - I’ll dry everything on a rack
But then I went to wash some clothes and I noticed that my washing machine (which I bought about six years ago) says it is a washer/dryer. I literally never noticed before
I just tried it and it dries perfectly. Indeed better. I never needed a tumble dryer in the first place
Perhaps the reality is that I’m dumb as fuck. I conclude that I am therefore ideally suited for politics and I will be a parliamentary candidate at the next General Election
Have you noticed that black plastic thing with the buttons that came with your telly? It enables you to change channels without lumbering up from your Parker Knoll to switch over to Antiques Roadshow.
Now there's an argument ripe for PB. What is the remote called?
I still say : The Fat Controller.
It was coined by my mum, and it is still the correct answer.
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Which one ?
It’s arguable that the end of the Civil War (UK) saw
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
The Army was no great thing then. The Navy was far more important.
The reason the Army was the first winner was that they had all the power. Parliament was the tail trying to wag the dog. The Navy wasn’t even considered a separate power base.
The Restoration happened because a big chunk of the Army faction joined the Moderates and made a deal with the Royalists.
Interpretations obviously.
The Army then and what we think of as the Army are two different things.
In early days of Vice News, they had a British bloke who I can't remember his name, who went on crazy missions to the front lines of fighting ISIS and AQ in places like Iraq and Syria. Was some incredible reporting.
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
I wonder if the best thing to have done would have been to partition Afghanistan between the surrounding countries.
Attempting to impose 'western values' on a country where the only unifying factor was Islam was doomed to failure but that never stopped the likes of Fraser Nelson cheering the attempt to do so - in the same ways their predecessors cheered attempts to impose 'Christian values' in the 19th century.
Divide it between Pakistan and Iran? Good luck with that!
You could argue that if anyone's to blame for the current situation it's the old Soviet Union. Their invasion in 1979 triggered the whole mess.
Between Pakistan and the stans to the north.
Wouldn't the Tajiks of Afghanistan do better joined with the Tajiks of Tajikistan than in a failed state with numerous other ethnicities where the only unifying force was fundamentalist Islam ?
Stan Laurel was a Stan of the North - he was born in Ulverston.
Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
I note that in the Lebanese Parliament, which Elects its MPs as half representing the "Christian" communities, and half representing the "Muslim" communities, the Druze are included in the Muslim half - and that it is reasonable to read hat across. As per Article 24 of the Lebanese Constitution. So I'm inclined to think that the interviewee was on fairly firm ground, and @Leon is a little fixated on a technical-sounding detail - Bart style .
There are 18 officially recognized religious groups: five Muslim groups (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Alawite, and Ismaili), 12 Christian groups (Maronite, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Copt, evangelical Protestant, and Roman Catholic), and Jews. Religious groups not recognized by the government include Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus, several Protestant groups, and the Church of Jesus Christ. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/lebanon
So Anglicans not recognised as Christian then by Lebanon unless they are evangelical Protestants
"Evangelical" means Lutherans, and under the Porvoo declaration that includes Anglicans. It does not mean the megachurches of the US with their unpleasant snake oil salesmen, unless they are legally affiliated to a recognised church.
Anglo Catholic Anglicans are not evangelical on any definition. It is a Catholic but Reformed church
Lutherans too talk about a "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church", still Protestant though.
They do but German Lutherans for example call themselves the Evangelical Lutheran Church
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
I wonder if the best thing to have done would have been to partition Afghanistan between the surrounding countries.
Attempting to impose 'western values' on a country where the only unifying factor was Islam was doomed to failure but that never stopped the likes of Fraser Nelson cheering the attempt to do so - in the same ways their predecessors cheered attempts to impose 'Christian values' in the 19th century.
Divide it between Pakistan and Iran? Good luck with that!
You could argue that if anyone's to blame for the current situation it's the old Soviet Union. Their invasion in 1979 triggered the whole mess.
Between Pakistan and the stans to the north.
Wouldn't the Tajiks of Afghanistan do better joined with the Tajiks of Tajikistan than in a failed state with numerous other ethnicities where the only unifying force was fundamentalist Islam ?
Stan Laurel was a Stan of the North - he was born in Ulverston.
Some classic self-righteous 'save the world / debt of honour' bollox from Fraser Nelson in the Times about how its right to let n any number of Afghans irrespective of who they are.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
As I posted (more or less) a day or so ago, no good has ever come to anyone from intervening in Afghanistan's affairs.
I wonder if the best thing to have done would have been to partition Afghanistan between the surrounding countries.
Attempting to impose 'western values' on a country where the only unifying factor was Islam was doomed to failure but that never stopped the likes of Fraser Nelson cheering the attempt to do so - in the same ways their predecessors cheered attempts to impose 'Christian values' in the 19th century.
Divide it between Pakistan and Iran? Good luck with that!
You could argue that if anyone's to blame for the current situation it's the old Soviet Union. Their invasion in 1979 triggered the whole mess.
Between Pakistan and the stans to the north.
Wouldn't the Tajiks of Afghanistan do better joined with the Tajiks of Tajikistan than in a failed state with numerous other ethnicities where the only unifying force was fundamentalist Islam ?
Stan Laurel was a Stan of the North - he was born in Ulverston.
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Which one ?
It’s arguable that the end of the Civil War (UK) saw
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
The Army was no great thing then. The Navy was far more important.
The reason the Army was the first winner was that they had all the power. Parliament was the tail trying to wag the dog. The Navy wasn’t even considered a separate power base.
The Restoration happened because a big chunk of the Army faction joined the Moderates and made a deal with the Royalists.
Interpretations obviously.
The Army then and what we think of as the Army are two different things.
The “Army” was what the people at the time spoke of. The power wielded by Cromwell and Co. backed by the large number of heavily armed and well disciplined men who followed them.
As some PBers have noted, I am generally quite quick to assert intellectual superiority in this forum. In my defence I have little choice, as I am obviously smarter
However I must - if I’m honest - confess some recent and contrary evidence
For about the last ten years I’ve bemoaned the fact I need a tumble drier in my one bed flat, as really the only place for it is in the bedroom. And it’s ugly and intrusive and noisy and all that
Recently I got rid of it having decided: what the hell - I’ll dry everything on a rack
But then I went to wash some clothes and I noticed that my washing machine (which I bought about six years ago) says it is a washer/dryer. I literally never noticed before
I just tried it and it dries perfectly. Indeed better. I never needed a tumble dryer in the first place
Perhaps the reality is that I’m dumb as fuck. I conclude that I am therefore ideally suited for politics and I will be a parliamentary candidate at the next General Election
Have you noticed that black plastic thing with the buttons that came with your telly? It enables you to change channels without lumbering up from your Parker Knoll to switch over to Antiques Roadshow.
It was only about five years after moving in to this flat - five years of loving the location but bemoaning the lack of extra storage - that I realised I had an attic
In my defence it’s not obvious. It is above the bathroom. And I’m on the first floor with a flat below me and above. Nonetheless there is an attic - enough for some significant storage. A skipload
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Which one ?
It’s arguable that the end of the Civil War (UK) saw
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
The Army was no great thing then. The Navy was far more important.
The reason the Army was the first winner was that they had all the power. Parliament was the tail trying to wag the dog. The Navy wasn’t even considered a separate power base.
The Restoration happened because a big chunk of the Army faction joined the Moderates and made a deal with the Royalists.
Interpretations obviously.
The Army then and what we think of as the Army are two different things.
The “Army” was what the people at the time spoke of. The power wielded by Cromwell and Co. backed by the large number of heavily armed and well disciplined men who followed them.
Council boss at Labour-run Birmingham City Council received £469k, and tripled the number of staff on more than £100k, in the year before the authority went bust
Only problem, the Druze are not Muslims. How come I know that - and he doesn’t? He was the head of the SIS. His job is to know basic facts like this
We are absolutely screwed. We are led by idiots. In all regards
It is an offshoot of the Ishmaili Muslim tradition though.
They themselves don’t consider themselves Muslim, and as we are all about the self ID and lived experience these days then it’s really their opinion that matters.
I must I was surprised to see @Leon in favour of self ID
Politically they tend to be aligned with the Muslims though. It depends on the context in the interview - he would have had limited time and was possibly focused on making a more important point than explaining just how the Druze fit into the patchwork of faiths in the Levant.
Or he’s an idiot. Given what we’ve just learned about British intel in Afghanistan, I’m going with that. He’s an idiot
He said “the Druze are Arabs then Muslims. They are part of the network of ethnic and religious groups in Syria”. It’s not as clear as it might be, but not as simple as you are representing.
The point he was making is that it is the Israeli government is probably lying - it is unlikely that they are intervening because they are concerned about the Druze (as an Arab, Muslim heritage group) - and far more likely that they are trying to create a divided and weak Syria by supporting one specific sub-group
That’s an important point that you seem to have missed. And pretty astute. A moron would get distracted by the tiny detail rather than focus on what matters.
They are not Muslims. He said they are Muslims
It’s pretty basic stuff. It’s like me saying you’re an upper class twit when you’re lower middle class, as you’ve told us
That’s NOT what he said. I took the trouble to quote his words. He said they are Arabs, and distinguished that status from the Muslim classification (“then Muslims”). “Then Muslims” is not the same as “are Muslims”.
He was talking about the hierarchy of identities.
Druze are culturally closer to being Muslim than they are to being Jewish.
He was being very precise in his language, although it could have been been clearer for the non expert listener.
What do you think the probability is of a militantly nationalistic Jewish state supporting the Druze because they sympathise with them?
That’s the point he was making: that Israel is looking to turn Syria into another Somalia - something which is absolutely contrary to British policy and interests.
I note that in the Lebanese Parliament, which Elects its MPs as half representing the "Christian" communities, and half representing the "Muslim" communities, the Druze are included in the Muslim half - and that it is reasonable to read hat across. As per Article 24 of the Lebanese Constitution. So I'm inclined to think that the interviewee was on fairly firm ground, and @Leon is a little fixated on a technical-sounding detail - Bart style .
There are 18 officially recognized religious groups: five Muslim groups (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Alawite, and Ismaili), 12 Christian groups (Maronite, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Copt, evangelical Protestant, and Roman Catholic), and Jews. Religious groups not recognized by the government include Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus, several Protestant groups, and the Church of Jesus Christ. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/lebanon
So Anglicans not recognised as Christian then by Lebanon unless they are evangelical Protestants
"Evangelical" means Lutherans, and under the Porvoo declaration that includes Anglicans. It does not mean the megachurches of the US with their unpleasant snake oil salesmen, unless they are legally affiliated to a recognised church.
Anglo Catholic Anglicans are not evangelical on any definition. It is a Catholic but Reformed church
Lutherans too talk about a "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church", still Protestant though.
They do but German Lutherans for example call themselves the Evangelical Lutheran Church
That's the point I have been making - most Lutheran churches are called that
Council boss at Labour-run Birmingham City Council received £469k, and tripled the number of staff on more than £100k, in the year before the authority went bust
To be fair, one pay band getting a rise from 98k to 101k would do that...
Council boss at Labour-run Birmingham City Council received £469k, and tripled the number of staff on more than £100k, in the year before the authority went bust
To be fair, one pay band getting a rise from 98k to 101k would do that...
I had the idea that age shouldn’t be a factor when it comes to voting, and that a better way was to only allow those who had four GCSE’s at C or above (or whatever the equivalent is now, a number?). The downsides would be that it rules out those who are clever but not academically minded, and immigrants who didn’t go to school here , although going to night school or learning at home in order to get the vote might improve assimilation
Sure. As long as the people who don't get to vote don't get to pay taxes.
Or you could turn it around the other way. If you don’t pay Income Tax or NI you don’t get to vote.
Or just go back to 1832 on that basis and only the top 5% of property owners can vote
I’m sure @Malmesbury would agree that restricting the franchise to the NU10K would have no disadvantages at all. No, none whatsoever.
I had a debate with someone this week who's argument started with "I believe the wrong side won the Civil War".
Which one ?
It’s arguable that the end of the Civil War (UK) saw
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
The Army was no great thing then. The Navy was far more important.
The reason the Army was the first winner was that they had all the power. Parliament was the tail trying to wag the dog. The Navy wasn’t even considered a separate power base.
The Restoration happened because a big chunk of the Army faction joined the Moderates and made a deal with the Royalists.
The Navy under Cromwell was quite a force, but the existing Navy was considered to be suspect of Royalist sympathies. Cromwell recognised this, but also that he needed their maritime expertise to fight the Dutch etc. So, during the Cromwellian period army were reassigned to the ships, as a sort of combination of Commisars to watch out for political issues, and because of their expertise with artillery and close quarters fighting.
Hence the modern Navy was effectively started by land veterans such as Blake, whose title was "General at Sea". One of my ancestors being a Captain of artillery redeployed to the Navy. So they really weren't distinct services in the modern sense at that time.
Council boss at Labour-run Birmingham City Council received £469k, and tripled the number of staff on more than £100k, in the year before the authority went bust
To be fair, one pay band getting a rise from 98k to 101k would do that...
Given the tax implications, nobody is doing that.
Broad principle holds, though. It's one of those uses of language to create an effect (I came close to saying "trick" there.)
tripled the number of staff on more than £100k and you hear tripled. Three times bigger, three times more expensive.
Most likely, similar people doing the same jobs as before, now over a threshold that they were previously under. Costs going up by a percentage, not a multiple. Effective language.
Besides, Brum went into Section 114 in autumn 2023, so we're talking the year when the Ukraine inflation spike was feeding into pay rises.
What's in a name? This is where banning organisations is problematic. If they meet the criteria for banning under the terrorism act I am a little perplexed as to why the leading figures have not been prosecuted. Just seems to be people on the ground who get arrested.
Council boss at Labour-run Birmingham City Council received £469k, and tripled the number of staff on more than £100k, in the year before the authority went bust
To be fair, one pay band getting a rise from 98k to 101k would do that...
Given the tax implications, nobody is doing that.
Broad principle holds, though. It's one of those uses of language to create an effect (I came close to saying "trick" there.)
tripled the number of staff on more than £100k and you hear tripled. Three times bigger, three times more expensive.
Most likely, similar people doing the same jobs as before, now over a threshold that they were previously under. Costs going up by a percentage, not a multiple. Effective language.
Besides, Brum went into Section 114 in autumn 2023, so we're talking the year when the Ukraine inflation spike was feeding into pay rises.
Given the specific tax cliff edge around £100k, it will be have had to be very significant % otherwise you are no better off. You need to get to £125k to really be better off.
What's in a name? This is where banning organisations is problematic. If they meet the criteria for banning under the terrorism act I am a little perplexed as to why the leading figures have not been prosecuted. Just seems to be people on the ground who get arrested.
Because the leaders are rich connected people who I presume are being careful. They can't be prosecuted retrospectively for being the leader of a proscribed group.
What's in a name? This is where banning organisations is problematic. If they meet the criteria for banning under the terrorism act I am a little perplexed as to why the leading figures have not been prosecuted. Just seems to be people on the ground who get arrested.
Because the leaders are rich connected people who I presume are being careful. They can't be prosecuted retrospectively for being the leader of a proscribed group.
But why has it been proscribed. Look at what Cooper said it had been involved in which Sean Fear posted a few days ago. Can they really all have clean hands?
What's in a name? This is where banning organisations is problematic. If they meet the criteria for banning under the terrorism act I am a little perplexed as to why the leading figures have not been prosecuted. Just seems to be people on the ground who get arrested.
Because the leaders are rich connected people who I presume are being careful. They can't be prosecuted retrospectively for being the leader of a proscribed group.
Is there a reason that rich connected people are not allowed to object to genocide? Is it just to be assumed that being rich should mean people have no principles or compassion?
What's in a name? This is where banning organisations is problematic. If they meet the criteria for banning under the terrorism act I am a little perplexed as to why the leading figures have not been prosecuted. Just seems to be people on the ground who get arrested.
Because the leaders are rich connected people who I presume are being careful. They can't be prosecuted retrospectively for being the leader of a proscribed group.
But why has it been proscribed. Look at what Cooper said it had been involved in which Sean Fear posted a few days ago. Can they really all have clean hands?
We have discussed the proscribed list a number of times on here. It is very messy how it is applied, there are devout non-violent Islamist groups on there and right wing extremists whose activities are limited to racist social media posts and some rallies, but haven't even carried out the sort of things PA have.
What's in a name? This is where banning organisations is problematic. If they meet the criteria for banning under the terrorism act I am a little perplexed as to why the leading figures have not been prosecuted. Just seems to be people on the ground who get arrested.
Because the leaders are rich connected people who I presume are being careful. They can't be prosecuted retrospectively for being the leader of a proscribed group.
Is there a reason that rich connected people are not allowed to object to genocide? Is it just to be assumed that being rich should mean people have no principles or compassion?
You misunderstood what I was saying. They are rich and well connected, so they have access to legal advice enabling them to be much more careful about where the limits of the laws are and which one they can break which lead to minimal legal punishments. The plebs inside are now getting themselves arrested because a faceless twitter account is telling them to do so.
There is also a big difference between objecting to perception of genocide and breaking into factories to smash up equipment and assault individuals.
As for being proscribed, as I have said the application of the law is already very inconsistently applied.
I'm glad the distress caused by the font and layout issues connected to the upgrade have been resolved with no change in the look and feel of the site. That's my tuppenceworth for today
Surely proving intent to destroy a national or religious or ethnic group in Gaza is going to be difficult as long as it can be proven that Hamas used human shields, no matter the number of dead. People have been saying that it's a genocide since Hamas' propaganda figures were 4:1 Civillian:Military deaths which I'm sad to say is nothing special. So I'm sceptical.
Council boss at Labour-run Birmingham City Council received £469k, and tripled the number of staff on more than £100k, in the year before the authority went bust
To be fair, one pay band getting a rise from 98k to 101k would do that...
Given the tax implications, nobody is doing that.
Broad principle holds, though. It's one of those uses of language to create an effect (I came close to saying "trick" there.)
tripled the number of staff on more than £100k and you hear tripled. Three times bigger, three times more expensive.
Most likely, similar people doing the same jobs as before, now over a threshold that they were previously under. Costs going up by a percentage, not a multiple. Effective language.
Besides, Brum went into Section 114 in autumn 2023, so we're talking the year when the Ukraine inflation spike was feeding into pay rises.
Given the specific tax cliff edge around £100k, it will be have had to be very significant % otherwise you are no better off. You need to get to £125k to really be better off.
That was introduced in 2009 by Brown/Darling.
Inflation adjusted, it's equivalent to a bite at £62,650.
Council boss at Labour-run Birmingham City Council received £469k, and tripled the number of staff on more than £100k, in the year before the authority went bust
To be fair, one pay band getting a rise from 98k to 101k would do that...
Given the tax implications, nobody is doing that.
Broad principle holds, though. It's one of those uses of language to create an effect (I came close to saying "trick" there.)
tripled the number of staff on more than £100k and you hear tripled. Three times bigger, three times more expensive.
Most likely, similar people doing the same jobs as before, now over a threshold that they were previously under. Costs going up by a percentage, not a multiple. Effective language.
Besides, Brum went into Section 114 in autumn 2023, so we're talking the year when the Ukraine inflation spike was feeding into pay rises.
Given the specific tax cliff edge around £100k, it will be have had to be very significant % otherwise you are no better off. You need to get to £125k to really be better off.
That was introduced in 2009 by Brown/Darling.
Inflation adjusted, it's equivalent to a bite at £62,650.
It is insane why the Tories didn't sort it out. The negative nudge effects of it can only be hurting growth / productivity.
What's in a name? This is where banning organisations is problematic. If they meet the criteria for banning under the terrorism act I am a little perplexed as to why the leading figures have not been prosecuted. Just seems to be people on the ground who get arrested.
Because the leaders are rich connected people who I presume are being careful. They can't be prosecuted retrospectively for being the leader of a proscribed group.
But why has it been proscribed. Look at what Cooper said it had been involved in which Sean Fear posted a few days ago. Can they really all have clean hands?
We have discussed the proscribed list a number of times on here. It is very messy how it is applied, there are devout non-violent Islamist groups on there and right wing extremists whose activities are limited to racist social media posts and some rallies, but haven't even carried out the sort of things PA have.
Indeed there are organised criminal actions committed by PA. But it seems like we are only prosecuting the foot soldiers. Unless they are actually led by police/MI5 informants which seems a little unlikely.
Surely proving intent to destroy a national or religious or ethnic group in Gaza is going to be difficult as long as it can be proven that Hamas used human shields, no matter the number of dead. People have been saying that it's a genocide since Hamas' propaganda figures were 4:1 Civillian:Military deaths which I'm sad to say is nothing special. So I'm sceptical.
Per Wikipedia:
Between January 2008 and October 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 308 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 6,407
On October 7th 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 1,195 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 1,609
Since October 7th 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 851 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 73,601
Surely proving intent to destroy a national or religious or ethnic group in Gaza is going to be difficult as long as it can be proven that Hamas used human shields, no matter the number of dead. People have been saying that it's a genocide since Hamas' propaganda figures were 4:1 Civillian:Military deaths which I'm sad to say is nothing special. So I'm sceptical.
I've just caught sight of this. Per Hamas figures, which I wouldn't rely on, 58,000 deaths in Gaza. Far more men than women which might suggest a 2:1 civilian to combatant ratio. And given their lack of regard for human life you can't assume a fair number of those 40,000 civilian casualties have not been caused by Hamas.
Comments
Bit like elite teachers can reduce a class of 30 fighting children to order with an eyebrow.
Catching flies with chop sticks is for slackers.
Among the drivel this line stood out:
The soldiers with whom I was embedded knew their efforts were worth nothing without the support of locals.
Is Nelson in total denial of what happened in Afghanistan ?
Our efforts were worth nothing and we never had the support of the locals.
That may be an unfortunate truth but it is still the truth.
Royalists vs Parliament vs Army vs Levellers vs Moderates. The last being people like Fairfax who wanted a limited, constitutional monarchy.
The immediate winner was the Army. But the long term winners were the Moderates.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/63cf434ff9423ba1
Worth reading for how the issues that were impacting Italy seem to have moved to Greece..
Syrian presidency declares ‘comprehensive’ ceasefire in Sweida after deadly clashes
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/19/syrian-government-declares-comprehensive-ceasefire-in-sweida
Seemingly confirmed by the US.
Israeli Prime Minister @Netanyahu and Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa @SyPresidency
supported by the U.S.A. @SecRubio have agreed to a ceasefire embraced by Türkiye, Jordan and its neighbors. We call upon Druze, Bedouins, and Sunnis to put down their weapons and together with other minorities build a new and united Syrian identity in peace and prosperity with its neighbors.
https://x.com/USAMBTurkiye/status/1946333767918080341
I haven't even see a well reasoned twitter thread implying genocide. The whole movement feels intellectually redundant.
You would have thought that the penny might have dropped with the powers that be at some point. Not just us, but also the USA, Russia, France, etc etc.
On anything?
You have to admit it's an impressive piece of engineering. The question is who aided and abetted in its building?
Similarly "Evangelical" means spreading the gospel, and willing to take converts, so once again pretty much open for all Christian sects to claim.
The common usage of both words deviates quite considerably from these technical definitions of course.
Attempting to impose 'western values' on a country where the only unifying factor was Islam was doomed to failure but that never stopped the likes of Fraser Nelson cheering the attempt to do so - in the same ways their predecessors cheered attempts to impose 'Christian values' in the 19th century.
However I must - if I’m honest - confess some recent and contrary evidence
For about the last ten years I’ve bemoaned the fact I need a tumble drier in my one bed flat, as really the only place for it is in the bedroom. And it’s ugly and intrusive and noisy and all that
Recently I got rid of it having decided: what the hell - I’ll dry everything on a rack
But then I went to wash some clothes and I noticed that my washing machine (which I bought about six years ago) says it is a washer/dryer. I literally never noticed before
I just tried it and it dries perfectly. Indeed better. I never needed a tumble dryer in the first place
Perhaps the reality is that I’m dumb as fuck. I conclude that I am therefore ideally suited for politics and I will be a parliamentary candidate at the next General Election
Hamas have pretty outstanding resilience too. Coming up for two years of total blockade from land, sea and air, total observation. Every bit of Gaza seems to have been occupied by the IDF at some point, yet they still it seems have hostages and military capability requiring the IDF to massively bombard the remaining rubble.
In military terms that is a pretty astonishing performance for a besigied city.
Early days of Ukraine war they did allow journalists near the fighting and we saw a load of them got ambushed and shot at. It might make for great TV, but its a nightmare for Ukrainian army.
I heard an ex special forces guy who works for Henry Jackson who has been into Gaza and Lebanon since the start of the war, say that they are shit scared of disaster of journalists getting taken hostage. Also a lot of journalists are worried about it too. Israel gave them permission to go to parts of Northern Israel / South Lebanon border and virtually none took it.
You could argue that if anyone's to blame for the current situation it's the old Soviet Union. Their invasion in 1979 triggered the whole mess.
(Actually the service is pretty good considering the often rather old kit, and I invented the numbers above)
I am nominally a confirmed member of the Church of England and grew up near the Thorntons factory. For both reasons I attach a high value to the concept known as "fudge", and to a "hierarchy of truths", and to a version of Nelson's "I see no ships" (which was actually Admiral Sir Hyde Parker asking a question that left Nelson both options, with little down side).
That middle phrase is borrowed from a book by Archbishop George Carey (of all people) written about Anglican / Roman Catholic reconciliation to identify things we need to really focus on, and things we can choose not to see as primary.
Fudge is very useful.
Indeed Tromso is on its own island, like Portsmouth, dramatically positioned in the ocean fjord with snowcapped mountains behind (rather less like Portsmouth).
No sunset for another week here, and still the sun shines relentlessly down…
When he received intelligence about 7 Oct from his own intelligence services, he ignored it because he thought he had a deal with Hamas. He was mistaken.
Now he is thwarting an inquiry into the failure of the intelligence services (his failure) by prolonging the war as long as he can.
Wouldn't the Tajiks of Afghanistan do better joined with the Tajiks of Tajikistan than in a failed state with numerous other ethnicities where the only unifying force was fundamentalist Islam ?
The Restoration happened because a big chunk of the Army faction joined the Moderates and made a deal with the Royalists.
"Analysis by the polling organisation More In Common suggests the big winners could be hard-Left figures such as the former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and pro-Gaza independents, who stunned the party by winning four seats at last year’s election.
The research found there are seven Labour seats where the number of 16 and 17-year-olds is bigger than the sitting MP’s majority over a pro-Palestine independent at last year’s election."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14919873/Health-secretary-Wes-Streeting-lose-seat-Gaza-rival-Labour-voting-age.html
https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI
I still say : The Fat Controller.
It was coined by my mum, and it is still the correct answer.
The Army then and what we think of as the Army are two different things.
Sorry
My old friend in Manchester whom I wrote about in the spring as having cancer, just passed away earlier than expected.
Having been diagnosed as terminal (Stage 3?), he was planning to take early retirement for his last months or year or two.
So ..action this day (just in case) !
In my defence it’s not obvious. It is above the bathroom. And I’m on the first floor with a flat below me and above. Nonetheless there is an attic - enough for some significant storage. A skipload
Derrrrrrrrrr
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/18/police-let-palestine-action-protester-walk-free/
Hence the modern Navy was effectively started by land veterans such as Blake, whose title was "General at Sea". One of my ancestors being a Captain of artillery redeployed to the Navy. So they really weren't distinct services in the modern sense at that time.
tripled the number of staff on more than £100k and you hear tripled. Three times bigger, three times more expensive.
Most likely, similar people doing the same jobs as before, now over a threshold that they were previously under. Costs going up by a percentage, not a multiple. Effective language.
Besides, Brum went into Section 114 in autumn 2023, so we're talking the year when the Ukraine inflation spike was feeding into pay rises.
There is also a big difference between objecting to perception of genocide and breaking into factories to smash up equipment and assault individuals.
As for being proscribed, as I have said the application of the law is already very inconsistently applied.
That's my tuppenceworth for today
Inflation adjusted, it's equivalent to a bite at £62,650.
Between January 2008 and October 2023:
Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 308
Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 6,407
On October 7th 2023:
Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 1,195
Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 1,609
Since October 7th 2023:
Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 851
Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 73,601
https://www.thenational.scot/news/25309426.police-scotland-charge-man-pro-palestine-action-shirt-trnsmt/
Someone else arrested for holding a sign saying the same thing yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jul/18/man-arrested-in-glasgow-for-holding-sign-allegedly-supportive-of-palestine-action
https://x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1946203880041124176