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Don’t believe the hype – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,572
edited 6:59AM in General
Don’t believe the hype – politicalbetting.com

Back in February 2019 a hypothetical poll had The Independent Group polling at 18%.Don't get overexcited by the polls showing a Corbyn/Sultana party polling something similar.https://t.co/hhQWoHkX9R pic.twitter.com/QHOBOrEqc9

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261
    edited 7:06AM
    Why not ?

    Fruit and nut fun.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,221
    Nigelb said:

    Why not ?

    Fruit and nut fun.

    With jam on it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261
    Speaking of socialist hype, this looks pretty good polling for Mamdani.

    NEW DFP NYC POLL 🚨in a traditional mayoral electorate, mamdani is up 16 points over cuomo
    https://x.com/ryanodonnellpa/status/1944739141712773153

    He is a considerably more impressive politician than Sultana, of course.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,561
    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,213
    To be honest the reaction was hilarious and I doubt any sensible gambler would be taken in by it

    I would just say on the wider point if Corbyn/ Sultana do set up a party and if Unite the Union sponsor it then that would be a problem for labour
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040
    Hypothetical polls have an ignominious history.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,738
    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,213

    Hypothetical polls have an ignominious history.

    But this one is funny
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,561

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    It’s not just the Beeb though (although they are having multiples this morning on Today with about 99% of the programme being very excited about the BbC with Trump interview and Masterchef). All the newspapers I’ve seen this morning have it as top or one of the top stories.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    To be honest the reaction was hilarious and I doubt any sensible gambler would be taken in by it

    I would just say on the wider point if Corbyn/ Sultana do set up a party and if Unite the Union sponsor it then that would be a problem for labour

    Worse for the Greens and the Palestine Liberation Organisation Parties. I suspect most believers are already Green or PLO. Labour are losing from the National Socialist right.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    Hypothetical polls have an ignominious history.

    But this one is funny
    Why?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,442
    People on the right feel the need for a NOTA party. Given how shite Labour have proved to be at governing, why shouldn't the left too?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,297
    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    Some of us never voted for the FLSOJ.
    And I for one am perfectly happy to be dismissive of the superannuated socialist.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    People on the right feel the need for a NOTA party. Given how shite Labour have proved to be at governing, why shouldn't the left too?

    Well the NOTA on the left is being promoted by a pair of incompetents that make Liz Truss look like a Nobel Prize winning Economist, one of whom has delivered over twice as many Conservative Governments as Mrs Thatcher.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    Are we allowed to refer to a Churchillian statesman as a FLSOJ? I seem to remember he was all muscle.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,561

    People on the right feel the need for a NOTA party. Given how shite Labour have proved to be at governing, why shouldn't the left too?

    Well the NOTA on the left is being promoted by a pair of incompetents that make Liz Truss look like a Nobel Prize winning Economist, one of whom has delivered over twice as many Conservative Governments as Mrs Thatcher.
    This is the same sort of dismissive attitude a lot of Tories and others had about Farage. He was a joke, a golf club bore, they’re all racists, they have no ideas except about foreigners being kicked out.

    The centre left needs to learn from history here because it’s not impossible that these “incompetents” could be destroying Labour’s chances of winning elections in the future.

    Disclaimer, I’m not asking you not to post etc etc before you get sensitive again.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,841

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Yesterday the first 7 minutes of the 6 o'clock news on R4 was the BBC talking about itself. Firstly, they were agonising about the Hamas propaganda video that they had shown (even although they were happy to conclude it was really someone else's fault) and then the Masterchef fiasco (which also seemed to be someone else's fault). Even by the standards of the BBC it was peak indulgence justified, apparently, by how important their reputation is.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,117

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040
    boulay said:

    People on the right feel the need for a NOTA party. Given how shite Labour have proved to be at governing, why shouldn't the left too?

    Well the NOTA on the left is being promoted by a pair of incompetents that make Liz Truss look like a Nobel Prize winning Economist, one of whom has delivered over twice as many Conservative Governments as Mrs Thatcher.
    This is the same sort of dismissive attitude a lot of Tories and others had about Farage. He was a joke, a golf club bore, they’re all racists, they have no ideas except about foreigners being kicked out.

    The centre left needs to learn from history here because it’s not impossible that these “incompetents” could be destroying Labour’s chances of winning elections in the future.

    Disclaimer, I’m not asking you not to post etc etc before you get sensitive again.
    I don't think I have dismissed his capacity to deliver Conservative Governments have I? He has been very good at that in the past.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,994

    To be honest the reaction was hilarious and I doubt any sensible gambler would be taken in by it

    I would just say on the wider point if Corbyn/ Sultana do set up a party and if Unite the Union sponsor it then that would be a problem for labour

    Most people are clueless on the economy, but also resent being fed waffly bollocks by men in suits and ties. They quite like the idea of a leader that reminds them of their old geography teacher. They don’t understand the damage that an extreme left wing party would do to their personal finances. Remember, we’re talking about people that think if the inflation rate falls, prices go down.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,442
    edited 7:32AM

    People on the right feel the need for a NOTA party. Given how shite Labour have proved to be at governing, why shouldn't the left too?

    Well the NOTA on the left is being promoted by a pair of incompetents that make Liz Truss look like a Nobel Prize winning Economist, one of whom has delivered over twice as many Conservative Governments as Mrs Thatcher.
    Yebbut, how competent is Farage? Everyone says "He got Brexit through!" - whilst ignoring that if he (rather than Boris) had fronted it, he would have lost the Referendum. Exhibit A, THOSE posters he released in the campaign off his own initiaitve.

    Voters might currently think they want an outlet for their frustrations. I wouldn't bank on this, so far out from polling day. There's damn near four years until we have to be asked. By then we could be in a war with Russia. With a Trump Jr in the White House. Neither of those would exactly be good news for the offering of New Right or New Left.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040
    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    Even idealists who accidentally deliver governments diametrically opposed to their own lofty ideals?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,705

    To be honest the reaction was hilarious and I doubt any sensible gambler would be taken in by it

    I would just say on the wider point if Corbyn/ Sultana do set up a party and if Unite the Union sponsor it then that would be a problem for labour

    Most people are clueless on the economy, but also resent being fed waffly bollocks by men in suits and ties. They quite like the idea of a leader that reminds them of their old geography teacher. They don’t understand the damage that an extreme left wing party would do to their personal finances. Remember, we’re talking about people that think if the inflation rate falls, prices go down.
    This paragraph could also be about Farage.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,705

    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    Even idealists who accidentally deliver governments diametrically opposed to their own lofty ideals?
    It’s time to get rid of FPTP.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,994
    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Yesterday the first 7 minutes of the 6 o'clock news on R4 was the BBC talking about itself. Firstly, they were agonising about the Hamas propaganda video that they had shown (even although they were happy to conclude it was really someone else's fault) and then the Masterchef fiasco (which also seemed to be someone else's fault). Even by the standards of the BBC it was peak indulgence justified, apparently, by how important their reputation is.
    I am looking forward to the BBC News headline when they have to announce the abolition of the licence fee and that in future they will need to compete on a commercial basis with the other broadcasters.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,994

    To be honest the reaction was hilarious and I doubt any sensible gambler would be taken in by it

    I would just say on the wider point if Corbyn/ Sultana do set up a party and if Unite the Union sponsor it then that would be a problem for labour

    Most people are clueless on the economy, but also resent being fed waffly bollocks by men in suits and ties. They quite like the idea of a leader that reminds them of their old geography teacher. They don’t understand the damage that an extreme left wing party would do to their personal finances. Remember, we’re talking about people that think if the inflation rate falls, prices go down.
    This paragraph could also be about Farage.
    And Johnson.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,841
    What I would say is that if the Sultana/Corbyn party does start to trouble the scorers in a meaningful way it would surely be the last nail in the coffin for FPTP. If a lot of constituencies were being won with around 20% of the vote due to fragmentation on both the left and the right that would be simply be unsustainable. That is not a mandate to do anything.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,738
    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Yesterday the first 7 minutes of the 6 o'clock news on R4 was the BBC talking about itself. Firstly, they were agonising about the Hamas propaganda video that they had shown (even although they were happy to conclude it was really someone else's fault) and then the Masterchef fiasco (which also seemed to be someone else's fault). Even by the standards of the BBC it was peak indulgence justified, apparently, by how important their reputation is.
    I'm anticipating the BBC special report into the Evil Someone Elses who keep damaging their reputation.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,705
    DavidL said:

    What I would say is that if the Sultana/Corbyn party does start to trouble the scorers in a meaningful way it would surely be the last nail in the coffin for FPTP. If a lot of constituencies were being won with around 20% of the vote due to fragmentation on both the left and the right that would be simply be unsustainable. That is not a mandate to do anything.

    Unless you’re the winner, of course.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,994
    DavidL said:

    What I would say is that if the Sultana/Corbyn party does start to trouble the scorers in a meaningful way it would surely be the last nail in the coffin for FPTP. If a lot of constituencies were being won with around 20% of the vote due to fragmentation on both the left and the right that would be simply be unsustainable. That is not a mandate to do anything.

    I will dance on the grave of FPTP when it happens.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,221
    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    Why do you like Sultana? What about her, policy or personality, appeals to you?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,853
    Nigelb said:

    Speaking of socialist hype, this looks pretty good polling for Mamdani.

    NEW DFP NYC POLL 🚨in a traditional mayoral electorate, mamdani is up 16 points over cuomo
    https://x.com/ryanodonnellpa/status/1944739141712773153

    He is a considerably more impressive politician than Sultana, of course.

    It does look like he is raisin the bar.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,738
    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    Do you think you would ever like a politician who marched with banners of Hitler?

    I am baffled why Communist genocidal dictators and those who happily march under their banners get such a free pass. Stalin killed thrice as many through purges and the like as Hitler did.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    People on the right feel the need for a NOTA party. Given how shite Labour have proved to be at governing, why shouldn't the left too?

    Well the NOTA on the left is being promoted by a pair of incompetents that make Liz Truss look like a Nobel Prize winning Economist, one of whom has delivered over twice as many Conservative Governments as Mrs Thatcher.
    Yebbut, how competent is Farage? Everyone says "He got Brexit through!" - whilst ignoring that if he (rather than Boris) had fronted it, he would have lost the Referendum. Exhibit A, THOSE posters he released in the campaign off his own initiaitve.

    Voters might currently think they want an outlet for their frustrations. I wouldn't bank on this, so far out from polling day. There's damn near four years until we have to be asked. By then we could be in a war with Russia. With a Trump Jr in the White House. Neither of those would exactly be good news for the offering of New Right or New Left.
    Conservative governments since 2015 have delivered incompetence at levels hitherto unheard of. This bunch are making a fine fist of equalling or even surpassing May, Johnson et al.

    Why not give a snake oil salesman who according to his teachers at Dulwich College doesn't like dark tones people, and claims to have all the answers, a shot in the big house? The argument is he can't be worse, even though you and I know he jolly well can.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,853
    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    I like idealists but don't want them in charge at a period where least bad choices are likely best, such as now. Horses for courses and all that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,841

    DavidL said:

    What I would say is that if the Sultana/Corbyn party does start to trouble the scorers in a meaningful way it would surely be the last nail in the coffin for FPTP. If a lot of constituencies were being won with around 20% of the vote due to fragmentation on both the left and the right that would be simply be unsustainable. That is not a mandate to do anything.

    I will dance on the grave of FPTP when it happens.
    FPTP worked quite well with 2 large coalitions and a NOTA party that those who wanted to feel morally superior or were simply fed up with both could vote for. After that it gets a bit tricky. We have seen that in Scotland for a while, of course, and the Scottish Parliament is a reasonable compromise which has proven capable of producing reasonably stable governments (subject to the utter idiocy of the likes of Yousaf, of course, nothing can really cope with that).
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,561

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Yesterday the first 7 minutes of the 6 o'clock news on R4 was the BBC talking about itself. Firstly, they were agonising about the Hamas propaganda video that they had shown (even although they were happy to conclude it was really someone else's fault) and then the Masterchef fiasco (which also seemed to be someone else's fault). Even by the standards of the BBC it was peak indulgence justified, apparently, by how important their reputation is.
    I am looking forward to the BBC News headline when they have to announce the abolition of the licence fee and that in future they will need to compete on a commercial basis with the other broadcasters.
    We will be back with this story about ourselves straight after this word from our partners BYD, TrumpCoin and Lockheed Martin.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,853

    DavidL said:

    What I would say is that if the Sultana/Corbyn party does start to trouble the scorers in a meaningful way it would surely be the last nail in the coffin for FPTP. If a lot of constituencies were being won with around 20% of the vote due to fragmentation on both the left and the right that would be simply be unsustainable. That is not a mandate to do anything.

    Unless you’re the winner, of course.
    And the winners get to set the rules. So we are stuck with FPTP almost regardless barring a GE result with no plausible government and the same result repeated shortly after.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040
    edited 7:47AM

    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    Do you think you would ever like a politician who marched with banners of Hitler?

    I am baffled why Communist genocidal dictators and those who happily march under their banners get such a free pass. Stalin killed thrice as many through purges and the like as Hitler did.
    Although Joe killed far more people than Adolf he became our genocidal authoritarian dictator. Them's the breaks.

    Same goes for Bibi cf Putin. He's our genocidal maniac.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,722

    Nigelb said:

    Speaking of socialist hype, this looks pretty good polling for Mamdani.

    NEW DFP NYC POLL 🚨in a traditional mayoral electorate, mamdani is up 16 points over cuomo
    https://x.com/ryanodonnellpa/status/1944739141712773153

    He is a considerably more impressive politician than Sultana, of course.

    It does look like he is raisin the bar.
    Is he the currant candidate?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,953
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    It’s not just the Beeb though (although they are having multiples this morning on Today with about 99% of the programme being very excited about the BbC with Trump interview and Masterchef). All the newspapers I’ve seen this morning have it as top or one of the top stories.
    Re BBC interview with Trump, being hyped all morning on R4 Today; this seems to me an interesting example of how the BBC is very obviously going soft on the whole Trump issue. This morning was extreme.

    If all you knew was this interview you would think that Trump was a very good, kindly and fairly decent highly empathetic man who the media had no reason to distrust.

    It seems clear that the BBC has two agendas. One is not to be cast into the outer darkness and vilified as Trump does to lots of media, and secondly to mimic the (understandable) UK government position of empathetic and fawning flattery towards a dangerous and deranged extremist.

    But for those who would like to know what is going on try Washington Week, LBC's Simon Marks, MSNBC, NYT, Economist, Jon Stewart and others, who are reporting on that alternative planet in which USA is being taken captive by anti constitutionalist racists.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    I like idealists but don't want them in charge at a period where least bad choices are likely best, such as now. Horses for courses and all that.
    Corbyn would at least be able to offer an alternative view on Gaza. Although his adjudicated anti-Semitism is less than helpful.
  • vikvik Posts: 549
    edited 7:54AM
    Nigelb said:

    Speaking of socialist hype, this looks pretty good polling for Mamdani.

    NEW DFP NYC POLL 🚨in a traditional mayoral electorate, mamdani is up 16 points over cuomo
    https://x.com/ryanodonnellpa/status/1944739141712773153

    He is a considerably more impressive politician than Sultana, of course.

    It's in line with other recent polls. A few older polls from May & June, from other polling orgs, showed a narrower Mamdani lead. It'd be interesting to see a new Emerson poll, to see how the numbers have changed.

    Mamdani is benefiting from having 3 rival "right-wing" candidates.


  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,853

    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    I like idealists but don't want them in charge at a period where least bad choices are likely best, such as now. Horses for courses and all that.
    Corbyn would at least be able to offer an alternative view on Gaza. Although his adjudicated anti-Semitism is less than helpful.
    The consensus view on Gaza is the correct one imo. He was a great footballer, close to the very best in the world, but the alcohol issues have taken their toll in his personal life.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,744
    Nigelb said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    Some of us never voted for the FLSOJ.
    And I for one am perfectly happy to be dismissive of the superannuated socialist.
    Same.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,953
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    What I would say is that if the Sultana/Corbyn party does start to trouble the scorers in a meaningful way it would surely be the last nail in the coffin for FPTP. If a lot of constituencies were being won with around 20% of the vote due to fragmentation on both the left and the right that would be simply be unsustainable. That is not a mandate to do anything.

    I will dance on the grave of FPTP when it happens.
    FPTP worked quite well with 2 large coalitions and a NOTA party that those who wanted to feel morally superior or were simply fed up with both could vote for. After that it gets a bit tricky. We have seen that in Scotland for a while, of course, and the Scottish Parliament is a reasonable compromise which has proven capable of producing reasonably stable governments (subject to the utter idiocy of the likes of Yousaf, of course, nothing can really cope with that).
    As a general supporter of FPTP I accept that it is coming under strains that may prove intolerable. However the conceptual problems of PR in its various forms as just as formidable. How do you govern strongly and stably when there isn't a majority view, or even a discernable plurality view? How do you have PR without giving too much leverage to extremes.

    For now I still think the right answer is to try simple AV (the one we rejected) so that you can vote for the party you want but also another one as a 'reserve' which will mean that everyone can express their actual opinion. IMHO it would have fairly radical consequences.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,297
    Nigelb said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    Some of us never voted for the FLSOJ.
    And I for one am perfectly happy to be dismissive of the superannuated socialist.
    Good for you, award yourself an extra Weetabix.
    I am also happy to prick the PB consensus and continue to remind Boris voters of the sizeable motes in their eyes.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,953

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Yesterday the first 7 minutes of the 6 o'clock news on R4 was the BBC talking about itself. Firstly, they were agonising about the Hamas propaganda video that they had shown (even although they were happy to conclude it was really someone else's fault) and then the Masterchef fiasco (which also seemed to be someone else's fault). Even by the standards of the BBC it was peak indulgence justified, apparently, by how important their reputation is.
    I am looking forward to the BBC News headline when they have to announce the abolition of the licence fee and that in future they will need to compete on a commercial basis with the other broadcasters.
    This overlooks the fact that the important thing the BBC does is radio (to give it an old fashioned and misleading name). I don't think the abolition of BBC tv will make much difference to anyone. Radio is cheap and SFAICS there isn't a way of charging for it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,359
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why not ?

    Fruit and nut fun.

    With jam on it?
    Cream (doesn’t) go on top
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,213

    Hypothetical polls have an ignominious history.

    But this one is funny
    Why?
    It is so surreal it is funny
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,297
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Yesterday the first 7 minutes of the 6 o'clock news on R4 was the BBC talking about itself. Firstly, they were agonising about the Hamas propaganda video that they had shown (even although they were happy to conclude it was really someone else's fault) and then the Masterchef fiasco (which also seemed to be someone else's fault). Even by the standards of the BBC it was peak indulgence justified, apparently, by how important their reputation is.
    I am looking forward to the BBC News headline when they have to announce the abolition of the licence fee and that in future they will need to compete on a commercial basis with the other broadcasters.
    This overlooks the fact that the important thing the BBC does is radio (to give it an old fashioned and misleading name). I don't think the abolition of BBC tv will make much difference to anyone. Radio is cheap and SFAICS there isn't a way of charging for it.
    Old fashioned?!
    New fangled nonsense to label the wireless as such.
  • vikvik Posts: 549
    vik said:

    Nigelb said:

    Speaking of socialist hype, this looks pretty good polling for Mamdani.

    NEW DFP NYC POLL 🚨in a traditional mayoral electorate, mamdani is up 16 points over cuomo
    https://x.com/ryanodonnellpa/status/1944739141712773153

    He is a considerably more impressive politician than Sultana, of course.

    It's in line with other recent polls. A few older polls from May & June, from other polling orgs, showed a narrower Mamdani lead. It'd be interesting to see a new Emerson poll, to see how the numbers have changed.

    Mamdani is benefiting from having 3 rival "right-wing" candidates.


    Mamdani is also lucky that there's no Ranked Choice Voting in the general election.

    It's likely that most Adams & Sliwa voters would prefer Cuomo to Mamdani, and at only 40% of the first preference vote, Mamdani could very well have lost the general election under Ranked Choice voting.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    Hypothetical polls have an ignominious history.

    But this one is funny
    Why?
    It is so surreal it is funny
    Are you trolling left of centre scumbag filth posters?

    Shame on you.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,894
    Morning all :)

    Hype is everywhere.

    The economy is doing so fantastically well the FTSE 100 is now over 9000. A sure sign of confidence in the masterly stewardship of Rachel Reeves.

    The Daily Star tells me Britain is on fire following grass fires in such diverse areas as Dagenham, Hornchurch and Walthamstow.

    I am also told 15% will vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn and Zarah Sultana - has it actually been launched yet?

    Seriously....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,953

    People on the right feel the need for a NOTA party. Given how shite Labour have proved to be at governing, why shouldn't the left too?

    Well the NOTA on the left is being promoted by a pair of incompetents that make Liz Truss look like a Nobel Prize winning Economist, one of whom has delivered over twice as many Conservative Governments as Mrs Thatcher.
    Yebbut, how competent is Farage? Everyone says "He got Brexit through!" - whilst ignoring that if he (rather than Boris) had fronted it, he would have lost the Referendum. Exhibit A, THOSE posters he released in the campaign off his own initiaitve.

    Voters might currently think they want an outlet for their frustrations. I wouldn't bank on this, so far out from polling day. There's damn near four years until we have to be asked. By then we could be in a war with Russia. With a Trump Jr in the White House. Neither of those would exactly be good news for the offering of New Right or New Left.
    Agree. The unknowns of the next 4 years are good reasons for thinking that Labour are the most likely gainers from it and most likely to lead the 2029 government. Reasons: Four years is a long time to sustain Reform's shaky foundations and paradoxical contradictory economic policy, the Tories currently have no path to success, Corbyn and co are yesterday's movement. Glasto has moved on. Labour's 2029 slogan 'Labour Least Worst. Trust us to screw up less than the others'.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,493

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    Don't blame me. I abstained (well, voted LD, Green or YP, which amounts to the same thing under FPTP in my constituency, which was safe Con at the time). Weird, I can't actually remember now. I'm hazy on by 2001 vote (LD or Con), know 2005 and 2010 (LD), 2015 (Chaos With Ed Miliband, largely to avoid the disruption of a pointless EU referendum, which remain would win anyway :lol:), 2023 by election (Lab) and 2024 (Lab). 2019 is a blank, probably because I chose semi randomly on the day, given I was effectively abstaining.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    From what I’ve heard on the radio of the Torode story calls for his resignation would be an injustice.

    It appears that 7-8 years ago he made a perceived racist remark. The accuser says it was not malicious and he apologised immediately when challenged. Torode says he has no recollection of the incident.

    Assuming the accusation is correct it seems like offence was caused, apologies were made and accepted and everyone moved on with their lives. What is the purpose of digging it up 8 years later?

    Although it's not quite on a par with making the elephant face with one's pockets and one's old boy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,205
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Hype is everywhere.

    The economy is doing so fantastically well the FTSE 100 is now over 9000. A sure sign of confidence in the masterly stewardship of Rachel Reeves.

    The Daily Star tells me Britain is on fire following grass fires in such diverse areas as Dagenham, Hornchurch and Walthamstow.

    I am also told 15% will vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn and Zarah Sultana - has it actually been launched yet?

    Seriously....

    It's very easy to put yourself in the mindset of a firm but disappointed Labour voter telling the pollsters they're in the dried fruit column hoping it will send the government a message. Doesn't mean diddly squat for the GE.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,802
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Yesterday the first 7 minutes of the 6 o'clock news on R4 was the BBC talking about itself. Firstly, they were agonising about the Hamas propaganda video that they had shown (even although they were happy to conclude it was really someone else's fault) and then the Masterchef fiasco (which also seemed to be someone else's fault). Even by the standards of the BBC it was peak indulgence justified, apparently, by how important their reputation is.
    I am looking forward to the BBC News headline when they have to announce the abolition of the licence fee and that in future they will need to compete on a commercial basis with the other broadcasters.
    This overlooks the fact that the important thing the BBC does is radio (to give it an old fashioned and misleading name). I don't think the abolition of BBC tv will make much difference to anyone. Radio is cheap and SFAICS there isn't a way of charging for it.
    Related to this. Looks like PBS is now fully in the firing line:


    Aaron Rupar
    @atrupar
    ·
    17h
    Roger Marshall: "Look, folks back in Kansas are tired of the federal government spending a billion dollars on public broadcasting. In today's world, I don't see that the benefits outweigh the detriment here."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1944767543043903930
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,493
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Hype is everywhere.

    The economy is doing so fantastically well the FTSE 100 is now over 9000. A sure sign of confidence in the masterly stewardship of Rachel Reeves.

    The Daily Star tells me Britain is on fire following grass fires in such diverse areas as Dagenham, Hornchurch and Walthamstow.

    I am also told 15% will vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn and Zarah Sultana - has it actually been launched yet?

    Seriously....

    My mental image of Dagenham might be wrong, but the idea of a 'grass fire' there makes it sound, to me, like some gruesome gangland retribution on an informer :open_mouth:
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    Do we have anyone here from Worcester, or who is in the Council in Worcester (District or County)?

    I'm after a bit of local perspective.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,493

    Nigelb said:

    Speaking of socialist hype, this looks pretty good polling for Mamdani.

    NEW DFP NYC POLL 🚨in a traditional mayoral electorate, mamdani is up 16 points over cuomo
    https://x.com/ryanodonnellpa/status/1944739141712773153

    He is a considerably more impressive politician than Sultana, of course.

    It does look like he is raisin the bar.
    Is he the currant candidate?
    It's a plum job. You'd expect it to go to a mandarin, really.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,762

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    From what I’ve heard on the radio of the Torode story calls for his resignation would be an injustice.

    It appears that 7-8 years ago he made a perceived racist remark. The accuser says it was not malicious and he apologised immediately when challenged. Torode says he has no recollection of the incident.

    Assuming the accusation is correct it seems like offence was caused, apologies were made and accepted and everyone moved on with their lives. What is the purpose of digging it up 8 years later?

    Although it's not quite on a par with making the elephant face with one's pockets and one's old boy.
    So difficult to find trousers with pockets on a sufficiently large scale to give that balance though I find.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040
    Watching CNN before I go home. They are discussing Ukraine on the basis that Trump's arrangement with Rutte is a considered foreign policy rather than a word soup from an age- related neurological basket case.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040
    edited 8:21AM
    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    From what I’ve heard on the radio of the Torode story calls for his resignation would be an injustice.

    It appears that 7-8 years ago he made a perceived racist remark. The accuser says it was not malicious and he apologised immediately when challenged. Torode says he has no recollection of the incident.

    Assuming the accusation is correct it seems like offence was caused, apologies were made and accepted and everyone moved on with their lives. What is the purpose of digging it up 8 years later?

    Although it's not quite on a par with making the elephant face with one's pockets and one's old boy.
    So difficult to find trousers with pockets on a sufficiently large scale to give that balance though I find.
    It's the trunk size relative to those enormous ears I have problems with.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,953
    Given that Reform might lead the next government (I give them a 25% chance, so it's real), a question to try to answer is this: In what way in fact will they actually govern over the big issues? What will it be like? What are the certainties? What are the possibles? How do they resolve the social democrat v Singaporian buccaneer demands of Reform?

    I don't think this has received nearly enough informed attention.

    I make two assumptions: Having got power they will want to keep it, and they will have learned from Truss that the markets are in charge, and from their voters that voters like free stuff.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Speaking of socialist hype, this looks pretty good polling for Mamdani.

    NEW DFP NYC POLL 🚨in a traditional mayoral electorate, mamdani is up 16 points over cuomo
    https://x.com/ryanodonnellpa/status/1944739141712773153

    He is a considerably more impressive politician than Sultana, of course.

    It does look like he is raisin the bar.
    Is he the currant candidate?
    It's a plum job. You'd expect it to go to a mandarin, really.
    Do we know the DATES on which they plan to get this charade off the ground?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,213
    algarkirk said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    It’s not just the Beeb though (although they are having multiples this morning on Today with about 99% of the programme being very excited about the BbC with Trump interview and Masterchef). All the newspapers I’ve seen this morning have it as top or one of the top stories.
    Re BBC interview with Trump, being hyped all morning on R4 Today; this seems to me an interesting example of how the BBC is very obviously going soft on the whole Trump issue. This morning was extreme.

    If all you knew was this interview you would think that Trump was a very good, kindly and fairly decent highly empathetic man who the media had no reason to distrust.

    It seems clear that the BBC has two agendas. One is not to be cast into the outer darkness and vilified as Trump does to lots of media, and secondly to mimic the (understandable) UK government position of empathetic and fawning flattery towards a dangerous and deranged extremist.

    But for those who would like to know what is going on try Washington Week, LBC's Simon Marks, MSNBC, NYT, Economist, Jon Stewart and others, who are reporting on that alternative planet in which USA is being taken captive by anti constitutionalist racists.
    Sky also featuring Trump's press conference in the White House with Mark Rutte, not least because it is important to understand Trump's shift on Ukraine and his declaration US arms will be supplied to NATO for use in Ukraine but he's charging European countries the cost of supply

    Mark Rutte thanked Trump and concurred that Europe should pay the US

    Make what you will on the story but it is news
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,493

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    From what I’ve heard on the radio of the Torode story calls for his resignation would be an injustice.

    It appears that 7-8 years ago he made a perceived racist remark. The accuser says it was not malicious and he apologised immediately when challenged. Torode says he has no recollection of the incident.

    Assuming the accusation is correct it seems like offence was caused, apologies were made and accepted and everyone moved on with their lives. What is the purpose of digging it up 8 years later?

    Although it's not quite on a par with making the elephant face with one's pockets and one's old boy.
    I believe the term is one's Collymore?

    Every day is a school day on here.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,643

    algarkirk said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    It’s not just the Beeb though (although they are having multiples this morning on Today with about 99% of the programme being very excited about the BbC with Trump interview and Masterchef). All the newspapers I’ve seen this morning have it as top or one of the top stories.
    Re BBC interview with Trump, being hyped all morning on R4 Today; this seems to me an interesting example of how the BBC is very obviously going soft on the whole Trump issue. This morning was extreme.

    If all you knew was this interview you would think that Trump was a very good, kindly and fairly decent highly empathetic man who the media had no reason to distrust.

    It seems clear that the BBC has two agendas. One is not to be cast into the outer darkness and vilified as Trump does to lots of media, and secondly to mimic the (understandable) UK government position of empathetic and fawning flattery towards a dangerous and deranged extremist.

    But for those who would like to know what is going on try Washington Week, LBC's Simon Marks, MSNBC, NYT, Economist, Jon Stewart and others, who are reporting on that alternative planet in which USA is being taken captive by anti constitutionalist racists.
    Sky also featuring Trump's press conference in the White House with Mark Rutte, not least because it is important to understand Trump's shift on Ukraine and his declaration US arms will be supplied to NATO for use in Ukraine but he's charging European countries the cost of supply

    Mark Rutte thanked Trump and concurred that Europe should pay the US

    Make what you will on the story but it is news
    I'm more baffled at the moment about the apparent shrug with which the world has greeted the news that Trump has apparently elected to award the World Club World Cup trophy to himself - not least with the actual football World Cup there in a couple of years.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,213

    Hypothetical polls have an ignominious history.

    But this one is funny
    Why?
    It is so surreal it is funny
    Are you trolling left of centre scumbag filth posters?

    Shame on you.
    No - you need to lighten up and see if for what it is - funny
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,359

    Hypothetical polls have an ignominious history.

    But this one is funny
    Why?
    It Is as funny as the rise of reform. More “point and laugh” as opposed to “funny funny”
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357
    On topic, the problem with hypothetical polls is that they pay no attention to events. Obviously.

    They're useful only in as far as events play out as people expect them to play out, and there have been times when hypotheticals *have* proven fairly accurate, for a while, because the public has a pretty good idea about those they're asked about.

    For that matter, the hypotheticals - even when they're wrong on the top-line - can still tell us something useful. In this case, about how unpopular the main legacy parties are and how people are looking for an alternative.

    However, TSE is entirely right to make the Change UK comparison. That was a genuine opportunity for a centre-left party to seize the initiative, sideline Corbyn, overtake a Lib Dem party still tainted by the coalition, and establish the primary opposition to the Tories. There were many people looking for such an option, as demonstrated by their early polling (and the Lib Dems' and Greens' later in the Spring / Summer), and with astute, innovative and confident leadership, could have achieved what the SDP failed to in 1981.

    But of course it didn't. It fluffed every opportunity, from prevaricating over its launch to uncertainty over its objectives and policies, to not even knowing whether it was a political party at all. Inevitably, that gave confidence to neither the public nor other MPs who might have joined a party with momentum but not Momentum - and before long, even those who'd joined lost faith in a project without plans. What it needed was ruthlessness: a clear vision from Day 1 that it was out to attract ex-Remain Tory, Lib Dem and Labour MPs, to contest elections *against* those parties and to beat them, to launch a popular movement and attract thousands of members to contest the local elections and build a springboard into the Euros, to gain defections wholescale from Labour, ideally including its Deputy Leader and many ex-frontbenchers. It was possible with a fair wind and good judgement: it had anything but.

    So to P&J or whatever. This is a project that's been flapping about ever since Corbyn was suspended in 2020 or thereabouts. That it's gone nowhere in five years tells its own story. As does a launch even more incompetent than Change UK. As does joint leaders who can't co-ordinate. I would normally give the project six months before it falls apart but in this case because those involved are used to disagreeing with everyone and because there will be support for it despite its obvious shortcomings as a party, the framework would probably survive through to 2029. But it'd be a shell and achieve nothing other than to highlight others' failures.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,213
    edited 8:35AM
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    It’s not just the Beeb though (although they are having multiples this morning on Today with about 99% of the programme being very excited about the BbC with Trump interview and Masterchef). All the newspapers I’ve seen this morning have it as top or one of the top stories.
    Re BBC interview with Trump, being hyped all morning on R4 Today; this seems to me an interesting example of how the BBC is very obviously going soft on the whole Trump issue. This morning was extreme.

    If all you knew was this interview you would think that Trump was a very good, kindly and fairly decent highly empathetic man who the media had no reason to distrust.

    It seems clear that the BBC has two agendas. One is not to be cast into the outer darkness and vilified as Trump does to lots of media, and secondly to mimic the (understandable) UK government position of empathetic and fawning flattery towards a dangerous and deranged extremist.

    But for those who would like to know what is going on try Washington Week, LBC's Simon Marks, MSNBC, NYT, Economist, Jon Stewart and others, who are reporting on that alternative planet in which USA is being taken captive by anti constitutionalist racists.
    Sky also featuring Trump's press conference in the White House with Mark Rutte, not least because it is important to understand Trump's shift on Ukraine and his declaration US arms will be supplied to NATO for use in Ukraine but he's charging European countries the cost of supply

    Mark Rutte thanked Trump and concurred that Europe should pay the US

    Make what you will on the story but it is news
    I'm more baffled at the moment about the apparent shrug with which the world has greeted the news that Trump has apparently elected to award the World Club World Cup trophy to himself - not least with the actual football World Cup there in a couple of years.
    After the dreadful Americanised final between Chelsea and OSG, with Trump invading the ceremony was a travesty for football
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    edited 8:35AM
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Hype is everywhere.

    The economy is doing so fantastically well the FTSE 100 is now over 9000. A sure sign of confidence in the masterly stewardship of Rachel Reeves.

    The Daily Star tells me Britain is on fire following grass fires in such diverse areas as Dagenham, Hornchurch and Walthamstow.

    I am also told 15% will vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn and Zarah Sultana - has it actually been launched yet?

    Seriously....

    We have had a story about one of our beautiful local country parks having a fire deliberately set, which was arson.

    Your rootin'-tootin' local media reported that FOUR SQUARE MILES had been burnt down. That's a fact-check fail on one un-sanity-checked number put out by the Police & Fire Service.

    The entire park is big, but it's only 250 acres. Which is 0.4 square miles.

    It will be more like 400 sqft or 400sqm. It took 6 fire appliances.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,221
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Hype is everywhere.

    The economy is doing so fantastically well the FTSE 100 is now over 9000. A sure sign of confidence in the masterly stewardship of Rachel Reeves.

    The Daily Star tells me Britain is on fire following grass fires in such diverse areas as Dagenham, Hornchurch and Walthamstow.

    I am also told 15% will vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn and Zarah Sultana - has it actually been launched yet?

    Seriously....

    We have had a story about one of our beautiful local country parks having a fire deliberately set, which was arson.

    Your rootin'-tootin' local media reported that FOUR SQUARE MILES had been burnt down. That's a fact-check fail on one un-sanity-checked number put out by the Police & Fire Service.

    The entire park is big, but it's only 250 acres. Which is 0.4 square miles.

    It will be more like 400 sqft or 400sqm. It took 6 fire appliances.
    Every story in the local newspapers that we knew anything about, would contain at least one inaccuracy. In one example, they put a building fire in the wrong part of town *when smoke from the fire could be seen from their own office windows*.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    The BBC loves talking about itself. The BBC's enemies (rival media empires; those convinced it's run by communists; those who know it's run by Tories) love being the BBC's enemies. Sexual harassment and racism are looked down upon in polite society.

    And because this follows Savile and Schofield and Edwards and Kneecap and Gaza and Glastonbury. In this respect, he said, trying desperately to bring this back to politics, it is like the Profumo Scandal which was so threatening because it followed the Cambridge Spies, the Portland Spy Ring and the Vassall Affair. On its own terms, it was salacious tittle-tattle with only a tenuous link to espionage.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,666
    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    The BBC loves to talk about itself, and a lot of the rest of British media loves to give the BBC a kicking.

    Therefore any hint of a scandal at the BBC receives disproportionate attention.

    This isn't particularly a uniquely British/BBC thing. There was a whole scandal in Ireland that you won't have heard of over RTÉ and dodgy payments to its then highest-paid presenter Ryan Tubridy that dragged on for a lot longer than warranted. The government were delighted not to have to talk about the housing crisis for several weeks.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684
    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    From what I’ve heard on the radio of the Torode story calls for his resignation would be an injustice.

    It appears that 7-8 years ago he made a perceived racist remark. The accuser says it was not malicious and he apologised immediately when challenged. Torode says he has no recollection of the incident.

    Assuming the accusation is correct it seems like offence was caused, apologies were made and accepted and everyone moved on with their lives. What is the purpose of digging it up 8 years later?

    Although it's not quite on a par with making the elephant face with one's pockets and one's old boy.
    So difficult to find trousers with pockets on a sufficiently large scale to give that balance though I find.
    Politicians with big willies: Jack Profumo; John Major; Michael Gove. All Conservatives.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    Sultana has some fairly inground racist/sectarian tendencies, and a long history which I do not yet see she has left behind - or turned away from / grown out of it Naz Shah style.

    IIRC when she was an officer at university in Birmingham there were things around the Jewish Student community being refused representation as a "minority".
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,882

    On topic, the problem with hypothetical polls is that they pay no attention to events. Obviously.

    They're useful only in as far as events play out as people expect them to play out, and there have been times when hypotheticals *have* proven fairly accurate, for a while, because the public has a pretty good idea about those they're asked about.

    For that matter, the hypotheticals - even when they're wrong on the top-line - can still tell us something useful. In this case, about how unpopular the main legacy parties are and how people are looking for an alternative.

    However, TSE is entirely right to make the Change UK comparison. That was a genuine opportunity for a centre-left party to seize the initiative, sideline Corbyn, overtake a Lib Dem party still tainted by the coalition, and establish the primary opposition to the Tories. There were many people looking for such an option, as demonstrated by their early polling (and the Lib Dems' and Greens' later in the Spring / Summer), and with astute, innovative and confident leadership, could have achieved what the SDP failed to in 1981.

    But of course it didn't. It fluffed every opportunity, from prevaricating over its launch to uncertainty over its objectives and policies, to not even knowing whether it was a political party at all. Inevitably, that gave confidence to neither the public nor other MPs who might have joined a party with momentum but not Momentum - and before long, even those who'd joined lost faith in a project without plans. What it needed was ruthlessness: a clear vision from Day 1 that it was out to attract ex-Remain Tory, Lib Dem and Labour MPs, to contest elections *against* those parties and to beat them, to launch a popular movement and attract thousands of members to contest the local elections and build a springboard into the Euros, to gain defections wholescale from Labour, ideally including its Deputy Leader and many ex-frontbenchers. It was possible with a fair wind and good judgement: it had anything but.

    So to P&J or whatever. This is a project that's been flapping about ever since Corbyn was suspended in 2020 or thereabouts. That it's gone nowhere in five years tells its own story. As does a launch even more incompetent than Change UK. As does joint leaders who can't co-ordinate. I would normally give the project six months before it falls apart but in this case because those involved are used to disagreeing with everyone and because there will be support for it despite its obvious shortcomings as a party, the framework would probably survive through to 2029. But it'd be a shell and achieve nothing other than to highlight others' failures.

    It didn't help that Change were a bunch of smug haves who opposed any change that might inconvenience themselves.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,627
    algarkirk said:

    What will it be like? What are the certainties? What are the possibles? How do they resolve the social democrat v Singaporian buccaneer demands of Reform?

    It'll be brexit all over again. The fact that the Fukker program in government, much like brexit, will actually make all of the country's problems not only worse but harder to resolve will be excused by blaming it on lawyers, judges, 'woke', immigrants and the EU. Fukkerism just hasn't been tried properly yet, &c.

    In summary, it'll be Johnson to the power of Truss. Chaos, corruption, cruelty and nationalism of the most banal stripe typified by flegs. So many flegs. Every single tory on here will quite like it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    Because the BBC loves talking about itself.

    Good morning, everyone.
    It’s not just the Beeb though (although they are having multiples this morning on Today with about 99% of the programme being very excited about the BbC with Trump interview and Masterchef). All the newspapers I’ve seen this morning have it as top or one of the top stories.
    Re BBC interview with Trump, being hyped all morning on R4 Today; this seems to me an interesting example of how the BBC is very obviously going soft on the whole Trump issue. This morning was extreme.

    If all you knew was this interview you would think that Trump was a very good, kindly and fairly decent highly empathetic man who the media had no reason to distrust.

    It seems clear that the BBC has two agendas. One is not to be cast into the outer darkness and vilified as Trump does to lots of media, and secondly to mimic the (understandable) UK government position of empathetic and fawning flattery towards a dangerous and deranged extremist.

    But for those who would like to know what is going on try Washington Week, LBC's Simon Marks, MSNBC, NYT, Economist, Jon Stewart and others, who are reporting on that alternative planet in which USA is being taken captive by anti constitutionalist racists.
    Sky also featuring Trump's press conference in the White House with Mark Rutte, not least because it is important to understand Trump's shift on Ukraine and his declaration US arms will be supplied to NATO for use in Ukraine but he's charging European countries the cost of supply

    Mark Rutte thanked Trump and concurred that Europe should pay the US

    Make what you will on the story but it is news
    I'm more baffled at the moment about the apparent shrug with which the world has greeted the news that Trump has apparently elected to award the World Club World Cup trophy to himself - not least with the actual football World Cup there in a couple of years.
    After the dreadful Americanised final between Chelsea and OSG, with Trump invading the ceremony was a travesty for football
    It was but it also shows something President Trump has picked up on that most American politicians either have not noticed or cannot admit. Soccerball is expanding bigly in the United States and is a damn sight more interesting than their homegrown sports like NFL, NBA and monster trucks.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    Hypothetical polls have an ignominious history.

    But this one is funny
    Why?
    It Is as funny as the rise of reform. More “point and laugh” as opposed to “funny funny”
    I have never thought the rise of Reform remotely funny. I would much prefer (as a non-Conservative) that the Conservatives get their one- nation act together.

    Perhaps pointing and laughing at centre-leftists is potentially more fun. Or perhaps it is more of a mark of Tory mentality. I wouldn't know.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    A very important story - a hospital in Northern Ireland where there was extensive abuse of disabled people, discovered because a security camera was left running for 6 months.

    Hundreds of offences. 8 years later, the enquiry is not finished, and there have been no outcomes of prosecutions.

    IMO in addition to the events, it is also about institutions not being joined up in dealing with it, and the NI state still being a mess.

    File on Four 40 minutes:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002fvgl

    Article Quote:
    What police officers found when they visited the hospital in September 2017, triggered the UK's largest adult safeguarding investigation and made the hospital one of the nation's biggest ever crime scenes - according to data released by the police.

    Unbeknown to staff, the CCTV cameras had been mistakenly left running for the six months since their installation, according to the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI).

    A staggering 300,000 hours of footage was discovered - equivalent to 34 years' worth. It revealed not only the alleged assault on Aaron, but hundreds of other incidents carried out by hospital staff.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8j1xxkxk74o
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040

    On topic, the problem with hypothetical polls is that they pay no attention to events. Obviously.

    They're useful only in as far as events play out as people expect them to play out, and there have been times when hypotheticals *have* proven fairly accurate, for a while, because the public has a pretty good idea about those they're asked about.

    For that matter, the hypotheticals - even when they're wrong on the top-line - can still tell us something useful. In this case, about how unpopular the main legacy parties are and how people are looking for an alternative.

    However, TSE is entirely right to make the Change UK comparison. That was a genuine opportunity for a centre-left party to seize the initiative, sideline Corbyn, overtake a Lib Dem party still tainted by the coalition, and establish the primary opposition to the Tories. There were many people looking for such an option, as demonstrated by their early polling (and the Lib Dems' and Greens' later in the Spring / Summer), and with astute, innovative and confident leadership, could have achieved what the SDP failed to in 1981.

    But of course it didn't. It fluffed every opportunity, from prevaricating over its launch to uncertainty over its objectives and policies, to not even knowing whether it was a political party at all. Inevitably, that gave confidence to neither the public nor other MPs who might have joined a party with momentum but not Momentum - and before long, even those who'd joined lost faith in a project without plans. What it needed was ruthlessness: a clear vision from Day 1 that it was out to attract ex-Remain Tory, Lib Dem and Labour MPs, to contest elections *against* those parties and to beat them, to launch a popular movement and attract thousands of members to contest the local elections and build a springboard into the Euros, to gain defections wholescale from Labour, ideally including its Deputy Leader and many ex-frontbenchers. It was possible with a fair wind and good judgement: it had anything but.

    So to P&J or whatever. This is a project that's been flapping about ever since Corbyn was suspended in 2020 or thereabouts. That it's gone nowhere in five years tells its own story. As does a launch even more incompetent than Change UK. As does joint leaders who can't co-ordinate. I would normally give the project six months before it falls apart but in this case because those involved are used to disagreeing with everyone and because there will be support for it despite its obvious shortcomings as a party, the framework would probably survive through to 2029. But it'd be a shell and achieve nothing other than to highlight others' failures.

    It didn't help that Change were a bunch of smug haves who opposed any change that might inconvenience themselves.
    As opposed to a smug former stockbroker and a bunch of smug millionaire former Tories?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,501
    IanB2 said:

    Not how I imagined early morning 150 miles inside the Arctic Circle would be...


    Why not? It's midsummer, the sun barely setting, if at all. Check out how the antarctic circle looks for the opposite!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,882

    On topic, the problem with hypothetical polls is that they pay no attention to events. Obviously.

    They're useful only in as far as events play out as people expect them to play out, and there have been times when hypotheticals *have* proven fairly accurate, for a while, because the public has a pretty good idea about those they're asked about.

    For that matter, the hypotheticals - even when they're wrong on the top-line - can still tell us something useful. In this case, about how unpopular the main legacy parties are and how people are looking for an alternative.

    However, TSE is entirely right to make the Change UK comparison. That was a genuine opportunity for a centre-left party to seize the initiative, sideline Corbyn, overtake a Lib Dem party still tainted by the coalition, and establish the primary opposition to the Tories. There were many people looking for such an option, as demonstrated by their early polling (and the Lib Dems' and Greens' later in the Spring / Summer), and with astute, innovative and confident leadership, could have achieved what the SDP failed to in 1981.

    But of course it didn't. It fluffed every opportunity, from prevaricating over its launch to uncertainty over its objectives and policies, to not even knowing whether it was a political party at all. Inevitably, that gave confidence to neither the public nor other MPs who might have joined a party with momentum but not Momentum - and before long, even those who'd joined lost faith in a project without plans. What it needed was ruthlessness: a clear vision from Day 1 that it was out to attract ex-Remain Tory, Lib Dem and Labour MPs, to contest elections *against* those parties and to beat them, to launch a popular movement and attract thousands of members to contest the local elections and build a springboard into the Euros, to gain defections wholescale from Labour, ideally including its Deputy Leader and many ex-frontbenchers. It was possible with a fair wind and good judgement: it had anything but.

    So to P&J or whatever. This is a project that's been flapping about ever since Corbyn was suspended in 2020 or thereabouts. That it's gone nowhere in five years tells its own story. As does a launch even more incompetent than Change UK. As does joint leaders who can't co-ordinate. I would normally give the project six months before it falls apart but in this case because those involved are used to disagreeing with everyone and because there will be support for it despite its obvious shortcomings as a party, the framework would probably survive through to 2029. But it'd be a shell and achieve nothing other than to highlight others' failures.

    It didn't help that Change were a bunch of smug haves who opposed any change that might inconvenience themselves.
    As opposed to a smug former stockbroker and a bunch of smug millionaire former Tories?
    But a Reform government would actually mean reform/change, as would a Corbynista government.

    Change UK didn't want change.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,649

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    From what I’ve heard on the radio of the Torode story calls for his resignation would be an injustice.

    It appears that 7-8 years ago he made a perceived racist remark. The accuser says it was not malicious and he apologised immediately when challenged. Torode says he has no recollection of the incident.

    Assuming the accusation is correct it seems like offence was caused, apologies were made and accepted and everyone moved on with their lives. What is the purpose of digging it up 8 years later?
    How can people feel better about themselves without burning a witch every day?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,442
    Selebian said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Hype is everywhere.

    The economy is doing so fantastically well the FTSE 100 is now over 9000. A sure sign of confidence in the masterly stewardship of Rachel Reeves.

    The Daily Star tells me Britain is on fire following grass fires in such diverse areas as Dagenham, Hornchurch and Walthamstow.

    I am also told 15% will vote for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn and Zarah Sultana - has it actually been launched yet?

    Seriously....

    My mental image of Dagenham might be wrong, but the idea of a 'grass fire' there makes it sound, to me, like some gruesome gangland retribution on an informer :open_mouth:
    "I did not mean you should set fire to their lawn..."
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,493

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Speaking of socialist hype, this looks pretty good polling for Mamdani.

    NEW DFP NYC POLL 🚨in a traditional mayoral electorate, mamdani is up 16 points over cuomo
    https://x.com/ryanodonnellpa/status/1944739141712773153

    He is a considerably more impressive politician than Sultana, of course.

    It does look like he is raisin the bar.
    Is he the currant candidate?
    It's a plum job. You'd expect it to go to a mandarin, really.
    Do we know the DATES on which they plan to get this charade off the ground?
    A right punnet of fruity metaphors on here this morning!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,649
    MattW said:

    A very important story - a hospital in Northern Ireland where there was extensive abuse of disabled people, discovered because a security camera was left running for 6 months.

    Hundreds of offences. 8 years later, the enquiry is not finished, and there have been no outcomes of prosecutions.

    IMO in addition to the events, it is also about institutions not being joined up in dealing with it, and the NI state still being a mess.

    File on Four 40 minutes:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002fvgl

    Article Quote:
    What police officers found when they visited the hospital in September 2017, triggered the UK's largest adult safeguarding investigation and made the hospital one of the nation's biggest ever crime scenes - according to data released by the police.

    Unbeknown to staff, the CCTV cameras had been mistakenly left running for the six months since their installation, according to the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI).

    A staggering 300,000 hours of footage was discovered - equivalent to 34 years' worth. It revealed not only the alleged assault on Aaron, but hundreds of other incidents carried out by hospital staff.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8j1xxkxk74o

    In Northern Ireland, there is the additional complication of The Peace Process.

    This is because prosecuting A Man of Violence (retired) or a close family member is An Attack On The Peace Process.

    So the PSNI has to make sure they don't officiously find evidence of a crime committed by the Right (Wrong) Kind of People.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    MattW said:

    A very important story - a hospital in Northern Ireland where there was extensive abuse of disabled people, discovered because a security camera was left running for 6 months.

    Hundreds of offences. 8 years later, the enquiry is not finished, and there have been no outcomes of prosecutions.

    IMO in addition to the events, it is also about institutions not being joined up in dealing with it, and the NI state still being a mess.

    File on Four 40 minutes:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002fvgl

    Article Quote:
    What police officers found when they visited the hospital in September 2017, triggered the UK's largest adult safeguarding investigation and made the hospital one of the nation's biggest ever crime scenes - according to data released by the police.

    Unbeknown to staff, the CCTV cameras had been mistakenly left running for the six months since their installation, according to the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI).

    A staggering 300,000 hours of footage was discovered - equivalent to 34 years' worth. It revealed not only the alleged assault on Aaron, but hundreds of other incidents carried out by hospital staff.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8j1xxkxk74o

    Sorry - listening to the programme, it is thousands of incidents.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,493

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    From what I’ve heard on the radio of the Torode story calls for his resignation would be an injustice.

    It appears that 7-8 years ago he made a perceived racist remark. The accuser says it was not malicious and he apologised immediately when challenged. Torode says he has no recollection of the incident.

    Assuming the accusation is correct it seems like offence was caused, apologies were made and accepted and everyone moved on with their lives. What is the purpose of digging it up 8 years later?
    How can people feel better about themselves without burning a witch every day?
    I believe the PC term is "conflagrating a female-identifying occult practitioner"
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,493

    Foxy said:

    Perhaps centrist PB shouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Corbyn & co. After all by many of their own accounts Jezza ‘forced’ them to vote for the FLSOJ. That’s pretty influential.

    I quite like Sultana, and warmed to Cobyn apart from the anti-Semitism stuff. I won't be voting for the party.

    At least they believe that the world can and should be a better place. I like idealists.
    I like idealists but don't want them in charge at a period where least bad choices are likely best, such as now. Horses for courses and all that.
    Corbyn would at least be able to offer an alternative view on Gaza. Although his adjudicated anti-Semitism is less than helpful.
    The consensus view on Gaza is the correct one imo. He was a great footballer, close to the very best in the world, but the alcohol issues have taken their toll in his personal life.
    Close to Best in more ways than one.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,826
    algarkirk said:

    People on the right feel the need for a NOTA party. Given how shite Labour have proved to be at governing, why shouldn't the left too?

    Well the NOTA on the left is being promoted by a pair of incompetents that make Liz Truss look like a Nobel Prize winning Economist, one of whom has delivered over twice as many Conservative Governments as Mrs Thatcher.
    Yebbut, how competent is Farage? Everyone says "He got Brexit through!" - whilst ignoring that if he (rather than Boris) had fronted it, he would have lost the Referendum. Exhibit A, THOSE posters he released in the campaign off his own initiaitve.

    Voters might currently think they want an outlet for their frustrations. I wouldn't bank on this, so far out from polling day. There's damn near four years until we have to be asked. By then we could be in a war with Russia. With a Trump Jr in the White House. Neither of those would exactly be good news for the offering of New Right or New Left.
    Agree. The unknowns of the next 4 years are good reasons for thinking that Labour are the most likely gainers from it and most likely to lead the 2029 government. Reasons: Four years is a long time to sustain Reform's shaky foundations and paradoxical contradictory economic policy, the Tories currently have no path to success, Corbyn and co are yesterday's movement. Glasto has moved on. Labour's 2029 slogan 'Labour Least Worst. Trust us to screw up less than the others'.
    Omg

    You did a comment saying “this is why Labour are likely to win the next election”

    Next, @Scott_xP on “actually I’m not that keen on Brexit”
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,040
    ...

    On topic, the problem with hypothetical polls is that they pay no attention to events. Obviously.

    They're useful only in as far as events play out as people expect them to play out, and there have been times when hypotheticals *have* proven fairly accurate, for a while, because the public has a pretty good idea about those they're asked about.

    For that matter, the hypotheticals - even when they're wrong on the top-line - can still tell us something useful. In this case, about how unpopular the main legacy parties are and how people are looking for an alternative.

    However, TSE is entirely right to make the Change UK comparison. That was a genuine opportunity for a centre-left party to seize the initiative, sideline Corbyn, overtake a Lib Dem party still tainted by the coalition, and establish the primary opposition to the Tories. There were many people looking for such an option, as demonstrated by their early polling (and the Lib Dems' and Greens' later in the Spring / Summer), and with astute, innovative and confident leadership, could have achieved what the SDP failed to in 1981.

    But of course it didn't. It fluffed every opportunity, from prevaricating over its launch to uncertainty over its objectives and policies, to not even knowing whether it was a political party at all. Inevitably, that gave confidence to neither the public nor other MPs who might have joined a party with momentum but not Momentum - and before long, even those who'd joined lost faith in a project without plans. What it needed was ruthlessness: a clear vision from Day 1 that it was out to attract ex-Remain Tory, Lib Dem and Labour MPs, to contest elections *against* those parties and to beat them, to launch a popular movement and attract thousands of members to contest the local elections and build a springboard into the Euros, to gain defections wholescale from Labour, ideally including its Deputy Leader and many ex-frontbenchers. It was possible with a fair wind and good judgement: it had anything but.

    So to P&J or whatever. This is a project that's been flapping about ever since Corbyn was suspended in 2020 or thereabouts. That it's gone nowhere in five years tells its own story. As does a launch even more incompetent than Change UK. As does joint leaders who can't co-ordinate. I would normally give the project six months before it falls apart but in this case because those involved are used to disagreeing with everyone and because there will be support for it despite its obvious shortcomings as a party, the framework would probably survive through to 2029. But it'd be a shell and achieve nothing other than to highlight others' failures.

    It didn't help that Change were a bunch of smug haves who opposed any change that might inconvenience themselves.
    As opposed to a smug former stockbroker and a bunch of smug millionaire former Tories?
    But a Reform government would actually mean reform/change, as would a Corbynista government.

    Change UK didn't want change.
    They did. They wanted to rejoin the EU.

    Corbyn and Farage just like breaking things.
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