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Hypothetical polls are still bobbins – politicalbetting.com

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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,167

    The International Rescue Committee, the international aid charity run by former Labour cabinet minster David Miliband, has also condemned the plan. Flora Alexander, the IRC’s UK director, said:

    This agreement marks yet another step in the wrong direction – doubling down on deterrence rather than offering meaningful protection. Prioritising tougher enforcement without creating safe, legal routes is both dangerous and ineffective. Evidence shows that these policies don’t stop people from seeking safety – they simply force them into more perilous journeys, putting lives at risk.

    Proposals such as a ‘one-in, one-out’ scheme risk undermining the right to seek asylum, a core principle of international law. They ignore the root causes of why people cross borders in the first place – to escape conflict, persecution and crisis. Border security must not come at the expense of human rights or the UK’s moral and legal obligations.

    It's clear that 'human rights' is really a ratchet to undermine state sovereignty.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Shut up, weirdo
    LOL. The way you've lived your life, and *you* call others 'weirdo' ?

    @TSE’s ban on harsh insults is bearing fruit. A month ago I’d have launched a Putin style assault of cuss-drones at you, F bombing all over the oblast

    Now I’m only allowed to call you a “weirdo” yet that is oddly satisfying. Probably because you are a weirdo

    Weirdo
    Okay, I'll bite. What about me, or the way I live, do you think classifies me as a 'weirdo' ?
    The fact you even have to ask that is proof you’re a weirdo

    Weirdo
    Put the drunk and/or drugs down and step away from the keyboard... ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,719
    edited July 10
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    ECHR aside, the question is whether France has the right to sign this under EU law.

    Any ECHR issues would surely affect both the UK and France.
    So if I’m reading this right Starmer the Gang smasher has got a deal to

    1. Send back about 5 people a day as 500 come over every day

    2. Even as he sends them back we’ve got to take others who have a family link

    3. So this will encourage more to try so they can establish a family link?

    4. He hasn’t even got this terrible deal anyway, it’s just an agreement to maybe agree down the line maybe

    Have I got that right?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,455
    Didn't Italy sign a deal with Albania for something similar and the EU kiboshed it?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,152
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    ECHR aside, the question is whether France has the right to sign this under EU law.

    Any ECHR issues would surely affect both the UK and France.
    So if I’m reading this right Starmer the Gang smasher has got a deal to

    1. Send back about 5 people a day as 500 come over every day

    2. Even as he sends them back we’ve got to take others who have a family link

    3. So this will encourage more to try so they can establish a family link?

    4. He hasn’t even got this terrible deal anyway, it’s just an agreement to maybe agree down the line maybe

    Have I got that right?
    Seems so
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,580
    I look forward to the legal cases within which the Fox Killer and other legal giants argue that France is an apocalyptic hell hole of a failed state and that it’s inhumane to send people there.

    ObvRef: the case where they argued that it was against human rights to send people to… Edinburgh.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,475

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:

    Starmer Macron conference at 15.30

    Now 16.00

    Still waiting at 16.24

    Starmer's haggling him down from handing over Kent and Sussex in exchange for the Bayeux Tapestry to just Kent. With an option on the Channel Islands.
    If we chuck in Essex then the French get Farage. And Patel. And Badenoch. This is worth considering...
    Plus, it would present Andrew Rosindell with an impossible choice. Does he accept that Romford is part of London, or become a Frenchman?
    Hmm, Romford and Ilford would have to stay, for you and Sunil. Plus the very small enclave comprising OKC's house somewhere near Witham.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192
    Lip service was paid to it, but IMV you really need to 'get' at the people-smuggling gangs, particularly at the very top. But given the international nature of the trade, that's difficult.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,200

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Shut up, weirdo
    LOL. The way you've lived your life, and *you* call others 'weirdo' ?

    @TSE’s ban on harsh insults is bearing fruit. A month ago I’d have launched a Putin style assault of cuss-drones at you, F bombing all over the oblast

    Now I’m only allowed to call you a “weirdo” yet that is oddly satisfying. Probably because you are a weirdo

    Weirdo
    Okay, I'll bite. What about me, or the way I live, do you think classifies me as a 'weirdo' ?
    I'd wear that title like a badge of honour.

    Don't think I'd want to be whatever Leon considers normal to be.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,027

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Piss off. Having a gloomy outlook on a message board isn't giving away territories to potentially hostile countries and 'hiring them back' for millions of pounds drawn out of our defence budget. Or giving away 12 years of fishing rights for a vague promise to stop choking off our imports using SPS checks - which is against WTO rules anyway. Or shutting down homegrown AI projects whilst paying Google millions to host data in a way that even a local council wouldn't allow. Or allowing China to build a vast surveillance and detention centre within a stone's throw of parliament. I could go on.

    The man is a national security risk.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,256
    3rd delay at Wimbledon due to someone in the crowd suffering from the sun/heat.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,455
    edited July 10
    Isn't everybody on PB a bit of a weirdo?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,748
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    ECHR aside, the question is whether France has the right to sign this under EU law.

    Any ECHR issues would surely affect both the UK and France.
    So if I’m reading this right Starmer the Gang smasher has got a deal to

    1. Send back about 5 people a day as 500 come over every day

    2. Even as he sends them back we’ve got to take others who have a family link

    3. So this will encourage more to try so they can establish a family link?

    4. He hasn’t even got this terrible deal anyway, it’s just an agreement to maybe agree down the line maybe

    Have I got that right?
    Not exactly Metternich is it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,580

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Shut up, weirdo
    LOL. The way you've lived your life, and *you* call others 'weirdo' ?

    @TSE’s ban on harsh insults is bearing fruit. A month ago I’d have launched a Putin style assault of cuss-drones at you, F bombing all over the oblast

    Now I’m only allowed to call you a “weirdo” yet that is oddly satisfying. Probably because you are a weirdo

    Weirdo
    Okay, I'll bite. What about me, or the way I live, do you think classifies me as a 'weirdo' ?
    The fact you even have to ask that is proof you’re a weirdo

    Weirdo
    Put the drunk and/or drugs down and step away from the keyboard... ;)
    It’s 5pm. Long past @Leon’s Lagershed.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,522

    I look forward to the legal cases within which the Fox Killer and other legal giants argue that France is an apocalyptic hell hole of a failed state and that it’s inhumane to send people there.

    ObvRef: the case where they argued that it was against human rights to send people to… Edinburgh.

    I look forward, after the above happens, to seeing a nice spread in the Observer Sunday Magazine where Jolyon invites readers to have a look around his beautiful Loire Chateau he bought with the fees from arguing that France is an apocalyptic hellhole of a failed state.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,455

    I look forward to the legal cases within which the Fox Killer and other legal giants argue that France is an apocalyptic hell hole of a failed state and that it’s inhumane to send people there.

    ObvRef: the case where they argued that it was against human rights to send people to… Edinburgh.

    What pillocks are still giving him money?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192

    rcs1000 said:

    Stephen Timms - “There are no plans to review the (Motability) Scheme’s qualifying benefits.”

    That really is a nonsense. A couple of years ago waiting for my car to be serviced at Sytner BMW in Cardiff (it was still under a gratis service package- I'm not mad) there was a big Motability sign in the showroom.

    A Motability car should be restricted to a basic Corsa and none of your fancy metallic colours.
    Wouldn't it be better to have it as a simple stipend, so that the recipient could choose between using it for Uber or towards a car payment?
    A large car, or at least boot, is sometimes required to carry a wheelchair or scooter.
    The father of another kid at school was in a wheelchair (this was the later 80s). He designed a system that allowed the wheelchair to be picked up and placed in a box on the car's roof.

    Very rarely, I see someone using such a system, which I think was developed from his ideas. Quite inventive, although the potential failure modes always concern me.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,748
    Spencer Hakimian
    @SpencerHakimian
    ·
    15m
    "A shocking poll shows Texas Democrat Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett is leading in the race for incumbent Republican John Cornyn's Senate seat." - Fox News

    I don’t think Republicans realize just yet how ugly 2026 is going to be for them.

    https://x.com/SpencerHakimian/status/1943340018073731215
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,889

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    We have agreed on certain things. We are of like mind on the things.
    You are heading down a terrible rabbit hole when you agree with Elon *

    * Blame autocorrect.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,626
    350 should be enough if we can get there
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Piss off. Having a gloomy outlook on a message board isn't giving away territories to potentially hostile countries and 'hiring them back' for millions of pounds drawn out of our defence budget. Or giving away 12 years of fishing rights for a vague promise to stop choking off our imports using SPS checks - which is against WTO rules anyway. Or shutting down homegrown AI projects whilst paying Google millions to host data in a way that even a local council wouldn't allow. Or allowing China to build a vast surveillance and detention centre within a stone's throw of parliament. I could go on.

    The man is a national security risk.
    Given your repeated shilling for Russia, I'll just LOL at that... ;)

    (Oh, and I could add your health and diet 'advice'... )
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,043
    edited July 10
    Anyway. I was walking in London last night and approached the Mandarin only to see what must have been around two dozen emergency vehicles and the street (the one I wanted to get to because that is where the Boris bikes are) cordoned off.

    Bloke from Hampshire stabbed trying to fight off someone trying to steal his watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckglyvx49p4o

    This was a very big deal indeed, plod-wise. Apart from every other wise also, obvs.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,256
    Headline on the BBC News Channel at the moment.

    "Macron urges joint UK-French recognition of Palestinian state".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcnews
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,475

    rcs1000 said:

    Stephen Timms - “There are no plans to review the (Motability) Scheme’s qualifying benefits.”

    That really is a nonsense. A couple of years ago waiting for my car to be serviced at Sytner BMW in Cardiff (it was still under a gratis service package- I'm not mad) there was a big Motability sign in the showroom.

    A Motability car should be restricted to a basic Corsa and none of your fancy metallic colours.
    Wouldn't it be better to have it as a simple stipend, so that the recipient could choose between using it for Uber or towards a car payment?
    A large car, or at least boot, is sometimes required to carry a wheelchair or scooter.
    The father of another kid at school was in a wheelchair (this was the later 80s). He designed a system that allowed the wheelchair to be picked up and placed in a box on the car's roof.

    Very rarely, I see someone using such a system, which I think was developed from his ideas. Quite inventive, although the potential failure modes always concern me.
    This is while the user is not in the wheelchair, right?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,200

    boulay said:

    Isn't everybody on PB a bit of a weirdo?

    Or a Creep.
    I often ask what the hell I am doing here.
    I feel like I don't belong here.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,475
    boulay said:

    Isn't everybody on PB a bit of a weirdo?

    Or a Creep.
    What the hell am I doing here? I don't belong here :wink:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141

    The International Rescue Committee, the international aid charity run by former Labour cabinet minster David Miliband, has also condemned the plan. Flora Alexander, the IRC’s UK director, said:

    This agreement marks yet another step in the wrong direction – doubling down on deterrence rather than offering meaningful protection. Prioritising tougher enforcement without creating safe, legal routes is both dangerous and ineffective. Evidence shows that these policies don’t stop people from seeking safety – they simply force them into more perilous journeys, putting lives at risk.

    Proposals such as a ‘one-in, one-out’ scheme risk undermining the right to seek asylum, a core principle of international law. They ignore the root causes of why people cross borders in the first place – to escape conflict, persecution and crisis. Border security must not come at the expense of human rights or the UK’s moral and legal obligations.

    It's clear that 'human rights' is really a ratchet to undermine state sovereignty.
    Or the other way. Increasing 'nation-state' absolutism at the expense of international law and institutions is a ratchet to undermine human rights.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,232
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:

    Starmer Macron conference at 15.30

    Now 16.00

    Still waiting at 16.24

    Starmer's haggling him down from handing over Kent and Sussex in exchange for the Bayeux Tapestry to just Kent. With an option on the Channel Islands.
    If we chuck in Essex then the French get Farage. And Patel. And Badenoch. This is worth considering...
    Plus, it would present Andrew Rosindell with an impossible choice. Does he accept that Romford is part of London, or become a Frenchman?
    Hmm, Romford and Ilford would have to stay, for you and Sunil. Plus the very small enclave comprising OKC's house somewhere near Witham.
    Moi, je ne regrette rien!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141
    Selebian said:

    boulay said:

    Isn't everybody on PB a bit of a weirdo?

    Or a Creep.
    What the hell am I doing here? I don't belong here :wink:
    Bags that crashing guitar solo ... cher cher, cher cher
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,921

    Spencer Hakimian
    @SpencerHakimian
    ·
    15m
    "A shocking poll shows Texas Democrat Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett is leading in the race for incumbent Republican John Cornyn's Senate seat." - Fox News

    I don’t think Republicans realize just yet how ugly 2026 is going to be for them.

    https://x.com/SpencerHakimian/status/1943340018073731215

    I don't feel certain that free and fair elections will occur in 2026, so it may well be ugly for everyone else too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141
    TOPPING said:

    Anyway. I was walking in London last night and approached the Mandarin only to see what must have been around two dozen emergency vehicles and the street (the one I wanted to get to because that is where the Boris bikes are) cordoned off.

    Bloke from Hampshire stabbed trying to fight off someone trying to steal his watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckglyvx49p4o

    This was a very big deal indeed, plod-wise. Apart from every other wise also, obvs.

    The Mandarin? What brought you to Cricklewood?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,200
    kinabalu said:

    Selebian said:

    boulay said:

    Isn't everybody on PB a bit of a weirdo?

    Or a Creep.
    What the hell am I doing here? I don't belong here :wink:
    Bags that crashing guitar solo ... cher cher, cher cher
    Cher?

    Maybe your role is more of a gypsy, tramp or thief.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,232
    Selebian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Stephen Timms - “There are no plans to review the (Motability) Scheme’s qualifying benefits.”

    That really is a nonsense. A couple of years ago waiting for my car to be serviced at Sytner BMW in Cardiff (it was still under a gratis service package- I'm not mad) there was a big Motability sign in the showroom.

    A Motability car should be restricted to a basic Corsa and none of your fancy metallic colours.
    Wouldn't it be better to have it as a simple stipend, so that the recipient could choose between using it for Uber or towards a car payment?
    A large car, or at least boot, is sometimes required to carry a wheelchair or scooter.
    The father of another kid at school was in a wheelchair (this was the later 80s). He designed a system that allowed the wheelchair to be picked up and placed in a box on the car's roof.

    Very rarely, I see someone using such a system, which I think was developed from his ideas. Quite inventive, although the potential failure modes always concern me.
    This is while the user is not in the wheelchair, right?
    Back in my community pharmacist days, as a vendor of aids for the disabled, I once sold, and fitted, a device like that!

    And no, the idea was that the wheelchair user got himself out of the wheelchair and into the drivers seat of the car.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,158
    edited July 10
    Depeche Mode “Vialator” if it had been recorded in 1955

    https://youtu.be/Vt69FeFz-ko?si=xKNBp1SPCv7dHSwS
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,627
    @kinabalu - you were talking earlier about whether American voters would swing Dem in the midterms - this Peter Zeihan video on the subject is quite interesting:
    https://youtu.be/iSPzVzxF4Cc?si=_BZr2KqNbdJsey3N

    (Though personally I think the Dems bigger issue is the broader left doubling down on some of its madder identity politics views.)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,256
    An official announcement has been made at Lords today to the effect that MCC members may take their jackets off.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,027

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Piss off. Having a gloomy outlook on a message board isn't giving away territories to potentially hostile countries and 'hiring them back' for millions of pounds drawn out of our defence budget. Or giving away 12 years of fishing rights for a vague promise to stop choking off our imports using SPS checks - which is against WTO rules anyway. Or shutting down homegrown AI projects whilst paying Google millions to host data in a way that even a local council wouldn't allow. Or allowing China to build a vast surveillance and detention centre within a stone's throw of parliament. I could go on.

    The man is a national security risk.
    Given your repeated shilling for Russia, I'll just LOL at that... ;)

    (Oh, and I could add your health and diet 'advice'... )
    That's because you're an utter helmet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,455
    Andy_JS said:

    An official announcement has been made at Lords today to the effect that MCC members may take their jackets off.

    End of days stuff....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,232
    Andy_JS said:

    An official announcement has been made at Lords today to the effect that MCC members may take their jackets off.

    Standards are slipping. You wouldn't hear that at Chelmsford!
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,141

    12 out of 10 for using the word Bobbins

    What does it mean if not to do with lace?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192
    A Polis far-right MEP claims Auschwitz gas chambers to be 'fake'.

    https://notesfrompoland.com/2025/07/10/polish-far-right-leader-declares-auschwitz-gas-chambers-to-be-fake/

    "Polish prosecutors have launched an investigation into far-right leader Grzegorz Braun after he declared the gas chambers at Auschwitz to be “fake” and said it is a “fact” that Jews have committed ritual slaughter of Christians. Denial of Nazi crimes is an offence in Poland that carries a jail sentence of up to three years."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,043
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anyway. I was walking in London last night and approached the Mandarin only to see what must have been around two dozen emergency vehicles and the street (the one I wanted to get to because that is where the Boris bikes are) cordoned off.

    Bloke from Hampshire stabbed trying to fight off someone trying to steal his watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckglyvx49p4o

    This was a very big deal indeed, plod-wise. Apart from every other wise also, obvs.

    The Mandarin? What brought you to Cricklewood?
    Top notch egg fried rice. Can't be beaten.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141
    Cookie said:

    @kinabalu - you were talking earlier about whether American voters would swing Dem in the midterms - this Peter Zeihan video on the subject is quite interesting:
    https://youtu.be/iSPzVzxF4Cc?si=_BZr2KqNbdJsey3N

    (Though personally I think the Dems bigger issue is the broader left doubling down on some of its madder identity politics views.)

    Thank you. I'm keen to watch it but only if it's offering more hope than fear or resignation. Can you confirm please?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,167
    kinabalu said:

    The International Rescue Committee, the international aid charity run by former Labour cabinet minster David Miliband, has also condemned the plan. Flora Alexander, the IRC’s UK director, said:

    This agreement marks yet another step in the wrong direction – doubling down on deterrence rather than offering meaningful protection. Prioritising tougher enforcement without creating safe, legal routes is both dangerous and ineffective. Evidence shows that these policies don’t stop people from seeking safety – they simply force them into more perilous journeys, putting lives at risk.

    Proposals such as a ‘one-in, one-out’ scheme risk undermining the right to seek asylum, a core principle of international law. They ignore the root causes of why people cross borders in the first place – to escape conflict, persecution and crisis. Border security must not come at the expense of human rights or the UK’s moral and legal obligations.

    It's clear that 'human rights' is really a ratchet to undermine state sovereignty.
    Or the other way. Increasing 'nation-state' absolutism at the expense of international law and institutions is a ratchet to undermine human rights.
    There's no human right to live in Britain, even if you have a speech impediment or high blood pressure.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192
    edited July 10
    Selebian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Stephen Timms - “There are no plans to review the (Motability) Scheme’s qualifying benefits.”

    That really is a nonsense. A couple of years ago waiting for my car to be serviced at Sytner BMW in Cardiff (it was still under a gratis service package- I'm not mad) there was a big Motability sign in the showroom.

    A Motability car should be restricted to a basic Corsa and none of your fancy metallic colours.
    Wouldn't it be better to have it as a simple stipend, so that the recipient could choose between using it for Uber or towards a car payment?
    A large car, or at least boot, is sometimes required to carry a wheelchair or scooter.
    The father of another kid at school was in a wheelchair (this was the later 80s). He designed a system that allowed the wheelchair to be picked up and placed in a box on the car's roof.

    Very rarely, I see someone using such a system, which I think was developed from his ideas. Quite inventive, although the potential failure modes always concern me.
    This is while the user is not in the wheelchair, right?
    Yes... At least when I saw it used... :)

    My teenage self thought it was quite ingenious. He would put the chair by the driver's seat, shuffle himself over, the 'arms' would come down from the roof, he would guide the chair into it, and the chair would be picked up and folded.

    I never saw it come down. I assume it did, and there were not a few dozen wheelchairs on the roof of his car...

    Edit: not quite how I remember it, but this sort of thing:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7XAo7CMYlU
  • PJHPJH Posts: 875

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:

    Starmer Macron conference at 15.30

    Now 16.00

    Still waiting at 16.24

    Starmer's haggling him down from handing over Kent and Sussex in exchange for the Bayeux Tapestry to just Kent. With an option on the Channel Islands.
    If we chuck in Essex then the French get Farage. And Patel. And Badenoch. This is worth considering...
    Plus, it would present Andrew Rosindell with an impossible choice. Does he accept that Romford is part of London, or become a Frenchman?
    For once I would agree with Rosindell and be glad to become French. Au revoir mes amis!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141

    kinabalu said:

    Selebian said:

    boulay said:

    Isn't everybody on PB a bit of a weirdo?

    Or a Creep.
    What the hell am I doing here? I don't belong here :wink:
    Bags that crashing guitar solo ... cher cher, cher cher
    Cher?

    Maybe your role is more of a gypsy, tramp or thief.
    Yes, sorry, I couldn't quite nail that. It's why I'm not in a band.

    But anyway, nothing wrong with your suggestion.

    "I was born in the wagon of a travelling show"

    One of the great opening lines.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,439
    Andy_JS said:

    An official announcement has been made at Lords today to the effect that MCC members may take their jackets off.

    Anarchy !

    The Swinging '60s reach the MCC.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,155

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,684

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    BBC called it right. They will come back with bigger demands and before you know it Starmer has agreed to pay another billion quid and Jersey is part of France.
    I would be OK losing Jersey: bunch of tax dodging bastards.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,522
    rcs1000 said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    BBC called it right. They will come back with bigger demands and before you know it Starmer has agreed to pay another billion quid and Jersey is part of France.
    I would be OK losing Jersey: bunch of tax dodging bastards.
    Hey, I resemble that remark.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,627
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    @kinabalu - you were talking earlier about whether American voters would swing Dem in the midterms - this Peter Zeihan video on the subject is quite interesting:
    https://youtu.be/iSPzVzxF4Cc?si=_BZr2KqNbdJsey3N

    (Though personally I think the Dems bigger issue is the broader left doubling down on some of its madder identity politics views.)

    Thank you. I'm keen to watch it but only if it's offering more hope than fear or resignation. Can you confirm please?
    Delivering hope and good news isn't really Peter Zeihan's thing, unfortunately. But its quite digestible and not 100% gloomy.

    The point is, the Dems' electoral coalition is in trouble. On paper, Labour+ethnic vote+coastal liberals should be enough to win any election - but the coastal liberal vision doesn't enthuse Labour, and the ethnic vote - particularly the Hispanic vote - is getting more and more conservative. So the Dems need something more to rebuild their coalition. Rejection of Trump could provide that, but the last election showed it's not something to be relied upon - people are willing to vote for someone they dislike if they judge it will help their material circumstances, and for many, it will.

    MY point - in response to yours earlier, though I've only just formulated this view - is that if American reject the Dems at the midterms, it neither means we should read into it enthusiasm for Trump, nor should we write them off as good people.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,614

    Royalty still matters abroad - Macron thanking the King for the state visit.

    You could spin that as Macron reminds us that he is Head of State, and Starmer merely Head of Government.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,684

    The International Rescue Committee, the international aid charity run by former Labour cabinet minster David Miliband, has also condemned the plan. Flora Alexander, the IRC’s UK director, said:

    This agreement marks yet another step in the wrong direction – doubling down on deterrence rather than offering meaningful protection. Prioritising tougher enforcement without creating safe, legal routes is both dangerous and ineffective. Evidence shows that these policies don’t stop people from seeking safety – they simply force them into more perilous journeys, putting lives at risk.

    Proposals such as a ‘one-in, one-out’ scheme risk undermining the right to seek asylum, a core principle of international law. They ignore the root causes of why people cross borders in the first place – to escape conflict, persecution and crisis. Border security must not come at the expense of human rights or the UK’s moral and legal obligations.

    It's clear that 'human rights' is really a ratchet to undermine state sovereignty.
    Damn right: states derive their legitimacy from humans, not the other way around.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141

    kinabalu said:

    The International Rescue Committee, the international aid charity run by former Labour cabinet minster David Miliband, has also condemned the plan. Flora Alexander, the IRC’s UK director, said:

    This agreement marks yet another step in the wrong direction – doubling down on deterrence rather than offering meaningful protection. Prioritising tougher enforcement without creating safe, legal routes is both dangerous and ineffective. Evidence shows that these policies don’t stop people from seeking safety – they simply force them into more perilous journeys, putting lives at risk.

    Proposals such as a ‘one-in, one-out’ scheme risk undermining the right to seek asylum, a core principle of international law. They ignore the root causes of why people cross borders in the first place – to escape conflict, persecution and crisis. Border security must not come at the expense of human rights or the UK’s moral and legal obligations.

    It's clear that 'human rights' is really a ratchet to undermine state sovereignty.
    Or the other way. Increasing 'nation-state' absolutism at the expense of international law and institutions is a ratchet to undermine human rights.
    There's no human right to live in Britain, even if you have a speech impediment or high blood pressure.
    Did I say there was? No. I was careful to match the tenor and framing of your lofty statement.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,881

    Isn't everybody on PB a bit of a weirdo?

    Stodge's Golden PB Rule:

    Anyone who posts between 8am and 4pm is SAD
    Anyone who posts between 4pm and Midnight is MAD
    Anyone who posts between Midnight and 8am is BAD
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,627
    geoffw said:

    12 out of 10 for using the word Bobbins

    What does it mean if not to do with lace?
    Lancashire word meaning 'rubbish'. I have a feeling it comes from the cotton industry referring to excess unusable material (as well as its more obvious sense) - though a brief internet search fails to back that up.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,522
    stodge said:

    Isn't everybody on PB a bit of a weirdo?

    Stodge's Golden PB Rule:

    Anyone who posts between 8am and 4pm is SAD
    Anyone who posts between 4pm and Midnight is MAD
    Anyone who posts between Midnight and 8am is BAD
    And if you post in all three time slots, DANGEROUS TO KNOW
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,719
    edited July 10
    JUST SAW MY FLAT ON THE CRICKET!!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,522
    Leon said:

    JUST SAW MY FLAT ON THE CRICKET!!

    Were you in or out?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,256
    Leon said:

    JUST SAW MY FLAT ON THE CRICKET!!

    It's a long way isn't it.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,627

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Piss off. Having a gloomy outlook on a message board isn't giving away territories to potentially hostile countries and 'hiring them back' for millions of pounds drawn out of our defence budget. Or giving away 12 years of fishing rights for a vague promise to stop choking off our imports using SPS checks - which is against WTO rules anyway. Or shutting down homegrown AI projects whilst paying Google millions to host data in a way that even a local council wouldn't allow. Or allowing China to build a vast surveillance and detention centre within a stone's throw of parliament. I could go on.

    The man is a national security risk.
    Given your repeated shilling for Russia, I'll just LOL at that... ;)

    (Oh, and I could add your health and diet 'advice'... )
    And the same point again: LG1983 is a bloke on the internet, SKS is the actual PM making all sorts of decisions quite contrary to the British national interest. One of these is clearly a threat to be taken much more seriously than the other.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,618
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,256
    "Julian Guyer
    @stGuyer

    @MCCOfficial say: "Due to the extremely hot weather forecast throughout this week, we are dispensing with the requirement for Members to wear jackets in the Pavilion this Test." Ties for gents remain. "This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper." #ENGvIND"

    https://x.com/stGuyer/status/1942652145905651919
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,141
    Cookie said:

    geoffw said:

    12 out of 10 for using the word Bobbins

    What does it mean if not to do with lace?
    Lancashire word meaning 'rubbish'. I have a feeling it comes from the cotton industry referring to excess unusable material (as well as its more obvious sense) - though a brief internet search fails to back that up.
    Ta, luv

  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,627
    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    Many jobs are difficult. It doesn't meam we shouldn't try.
    How wojld you have repelled the Viking invasions? They only wanted sonewhere to live too.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Piss off. Having a gloomy outlook on a message board isn't giving away territories to potentially hostile countries and 'hiring them back' for millions of pounds drawn out of our defence budget. Or giving away 12 years of fishing rights for a vague promise to stop choking off our imports using SPS checks - which is against WTO rules anyway. Or shutting down homegrown AI projects whilst paying Google millions to host data in a way that even a local council wouldn't allow. Or allowing China to build a vast surveillance and detention centre within a stone's throw of parliament. I could go on.

    The man is a national security risk.
    Given your repeated shilling for Russia, I'll just LOL at that... ;)

    (Oh, and I could add your health and diet 'advice'... )
    And the same point again: LG1983 is a bloke on the internet, SKS is the actual PM making all sorts of decisions quite contrary to the British national interest. One of these is clearly a threat to be taken much more seriously than the other.
    On the Internet, bots and trolls hold immense power.

    Which is why stuff like anti-vax sentiment ends up killing thousands.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,970
    edited July 10
    isam said:

    Depeche Mode “Vialator” if it had been recorded in 1955

    https://youtu.be/Vt69FeFz-ko?si=xKNBp1SPCv7dHSwS

    Violator :)

    Not bad!
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,141
    Notable that the wicked witch comes third best in the 'worst net satisfaction ratings achieved' in the header
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,719
    edited July 10
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    JUST SAW MY FLAT ON THE CRICKET!!

    Were you in or out?
    I actually saw myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,889
    edited July 10
    Andy_JS said:

    "Julian Guyer
    @stGuyer

    @MCCOfficial say: "Due to the extremely hot weather forecast throughout this week, we are dispensing with the requirement for Members to wear jackets in the Pavilion this Test." Ties for gents remain. "This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper." #ENGvIND"

    https://x.com/stGuyer/status/1942652145905651919

    Disgusting.

    Only under a Labour Government! This wouldn't have happened when Brave Sir Boris was PM!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,627

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Piss off. Having a gloomy outlook on a message board isn't giving away territories to potentially hostile countries and 'hiring them back' for millions of pounds drawn out of our defence budget. Or giving away 12 years of fishing rights for a vague promise to stop choking off our imports using SPS checks - which is against WTO rules anyway. Or shutting down homegrown AI projects whilst paying Google millions to host data in a way that even a local council wouldn't allow. Or allowing China to build a vast surveillance and detention centre within a stone's throw of parliament. I could go on.

    The man is a national security risk.
    Given your repeated shilling for Russia, I'll just LOL at that... ;)

    (Oh, and I could add your health and diet 'advice'... )
    And the same point again: LG1983 is a bloke on the internet, SKS is the actual PM making all sorts of decisions quite contrary to the British national interest. One of these is clearly a threat to be taken much more seriously than the other.
    On the Internet, bots and trolls hold immense power.

    Which is why stuff like anti-vax sentiment ends up killing thousands.
    Are you seriously saying SKS giving away British territory to allies of the Chinese is a lesser threat to British interests than Leon and Luckyguy1983 complaining about this on the internet?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,688
    boulay said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Care4Calais, a refugee charity, has condemned the ‘one in, one out’ deal that has just been announced. It says:

    A grubby deal between two Governments that trades human lives. A deal that will likely be expensive, will make life harder for people who seek safety in the UK, but will do nothing to tackle the root cause of crossings - a lack of safe routes

    If the policy gets off the ground then it might make some not risk the journey if they have family members in the UK .
    Rwanda was a better policy
    The problem with Rwanda is that no genuine asylum seekers would be processed and the backlog could have become much worse .
    Would it have been beyond the wit of an incoming Labour gov with a huge majority to have tweaked Rwanda, especially with all the capital already ploughed into it, so that all illegal arrivals and asylum seekers were sent there and processed there and successful applicants would be brought to the UK whilst the unsuccessful would have the option of being sent home or staying on for a new life in Rwanda.

    Labour just couldn’t bring themselves to do what might have worked because it was too close to Tory policy.
    Isn’t the point that Rwanda don’t want all our asylum seekers. They were just happy to take a few for a price.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,970
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:

    Starmer Macron conference at 15.30

    Now 16.00

    Still waiting at 16.24

    Starmer's haggling him down from handing over Kent and Sussex in exchange for the Bayeux Tapestry to just Kent. With an option on the Channel Islands.
    If we chuck in Essex then the French get Farage. And Patel. And Badenoch. This is worth considering...
    Plus, it would present Andrew Rosindell with an impossible choice. Does he accept that Romford is part of London, or become a Frenchman?
    Hmm, Romford and Ilford would have to stay, for you and Sunil. Plus the very small enclave comprising OKC's house somewhere near Witham.
    Wicked! I is here in da North Ilford Ghetto!

    60 years ago we became part of the massive Redbridge... Massive!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141
    edited July 10
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    @kinabalu - you were talking earlier about whether American voters would swing Dem in the midterms - this Peter Zeihan video on the subject is quite interesting:
    https://youtu.be/iSPzVzxF4Cc?si=_BZr2KqNbdJsey3N

    (Though personally I think the Dems bigger issue is the broader left doubling down on some of its madder identity politics views.)

    Thank you. I'm keen to watch it but only if it's offering more hope than fear or resignation. Can you confirm please?
    Delivering hope and good news isn't really Peter Zeihan's thing, unfortunately. But its quite digestible and not 100% gloomy.

    The point is, the Dems' electoral coalition is in trouble. On paper, Labour+ethnic vote+coastal liberals should be enough to win any election - but the coastal liberal vision doesn't enthuse Labour, and the ethnic vote - particularly the Hispanic vote - is getting more and more conservative. So the Dems need something more to rebuild their coalition. Rejection of Trump could provide that, but the last election showed it's not something to be relied upon - people are willing to vote for someone they dislike if they judge it will help their material circumstances, and for many, it will.

    MY point - in response to yours earlier, though I've only just formulated this view - is that if American reject the Dems at the midterms, it neither means we should read into it enthusiasm for Trump, nor should we write them off as good people.
    Good points. The Dems are struggling structurally and it will take something special for them to win big at the midterms. But the way I see it the 'something special' is forming before our eyes. The gross and wicked corruption of the whole country, every aspect, every level, by Donald Trump.

    So I think it's on (barring the election being rigged, which is possibly a flawed assumption, but let's not go there yet). I think the big Dem win, or perhaps more accurately the GOP loss, is on.

    Could be wrong of course - I was in November - but I desperately hope not. As for writing them off if it doesn't happen, I think I'd have to. I'd be sad about it but I'd have to. It's not possible for a 'good people' to go along with this shit and retain a credible claim to that moniker.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,618
    Cookie said:

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    Many jobs are difficult. It doesn't meam we shouldn't try.
    How wojld you have repelled the Viking invasions? They only wanted sonewhere to live too.
    Think of the practicalities . How many boats will the UK need to enforce this policy , and what happens when the boat refuses to turnaround . Does the new force try and attach a line and drag it back into French waters , in the meantime what if the boat starts to sink . Obviously the fuel situation will be an issue , the boat might run out of fuel even if it tried to get back to France . I expected this type of impractical and immoral policy to be peddled by Reform not learned members of this forum !
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,152
    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,881

    Andy_JS said:

    "Julian Guyer
    @stGuyer

    @MCCOfficial say: "Due to the extremely hot weather forecast throughout this week, we are dispensing with the requirement for Members to wear jackets in the Pavilion this Test." Ties for gents remain. "This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper." #ENGvIND"

    https://x.com/stGuyer/status/1942652145905651919

    Disgusting.

    Only under a Labour Government! This wouldn't have happened when Brave Sir Boris was PM!
    I'm not sure it didn't happen in 2022. One place it certainly hasn't happened and would really be the end of days were it to ever be so is the Royal Enclosure at Ascot.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    That's a bit like someone in Germany in 1931 saying "Round up all the Jews to prevent Hitler a Hitler coronation".

    Hard to see the difference between your proposed treatment and the disease you're trying to avoid.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anyway. I was walking in London last night and approached the Mandarin only to see what must have been around two dozen emergency vehicles and the street (the one I wanted to get to because that is where the Boris bikes are) cordoned off.

    Bloke from Hampshire stabbed trying to fight off someone trying to steal his watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckglyvx49p4o

    This was a very big deal indeed, plod-wise. Apart from every other wise also, obvs.

    The Mandarin? What brought you to Cricklewood?
    Top notch egg fried rice. Can't be beaten.
    Meal in itself.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,688

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    Yeah that’s fine. We just have to (a) build a processing centre, (b) staff a processing centre, (c) pay for regular secure flights to said processing centre, (d) ensure that lawyers and judges have reasonable access in order to in fact process applications, (e) have a plan to deal with asylum seekers who do not declare where they are from and are not willing to leave.

    Expensive. And time consuming. Suddenly “outside Europe” seems impractical. Of course it’s possible and we should probably do it if we can find a suitable location but it’s not simple with no downsides, as with everything.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    No details. Usually an ominous sign with Sir Keir Traitor

    Give it a rest. They way you continually talk this country down, you are a bit rich throwing 'traitor' around.
    Piss off. Having a gloomy outlook on a message board isn't giving away territories to potentially hostile countries and 'hiring them back' for millions of pounds drawn out of our defence budget. Or giving away 12 years of fishing rights for a vague promise to stop choking off our imports using SPS checks - which is against WTO rules anyway. Or shutting down homegrown AI projects whilst paying Google millions to host data in a way that even a local council wouldn't allow. Or allowing China to build a vast surveillance and detention centre within a stone's throw of parliament. I could go on.

    The man is a national security risk.
    Given your repeated shilling for Russia, I'll just LOL at that... ;)

    (Oh, and I could add your health and diet 'advice'... )
    And the same point again: LG1983 is a bloke on the internet, SKS is the actual PM making all sorts of decisions quite contrary to the British national interest. One of these is clearly a threat to be taken much more seriously than the other.
    On the Internet, bots and trolls hold immense power.

    Which is why stuff like anti-vax sentiment ends up killing thousands.
    Are you seriously saying SKS giving away British territory to allies of the Chinese is a lesser threat to British interests than Leon and Luckyguy1983 complaining about this on the internet?
    Are you seriously saying the bots and trolls spreading misinformation and foreign propaganda are not a threat to our interests?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,627
    edited July 10
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    JUST SAW MY FLAT ON THE CRICKET!!

    Were you in or out?
    I actually saw myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at...
    Now you've achieved your perfect heavenly state maybe you could just spend your time there instead of posting drivel on the internet? ;-)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,152

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    Yeah that’s fine. We just have to (a) build a processing centre, (b) staff a processing centre, (c) pay for regular secure flights to said processing centre, (d) ensure that lawyers and judges have reasonable access in order to in fact process applications, (e) have a plan to deal with asylum seekers who do not declare where they are from and are not willing to leave.

    Expensive. And time consuming. Suddenly “outside Europe” seems impractical. Of course it’s possible and we should probably do it if we can find a suitable location but it’s not simple with no downsides, as with everything.
    A few flights and the boats would stop

    Labour should have refined Rwanda but certainly today's announcement was a farce
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,970

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    That's a bit like someone in Germany in 1931 saying "Round up all the Jews to prevent Hitler a Hitler coronation".

    Hard to see the difference between your proposed treatment and the disease you're trying to avoid.
    An apologist for illegal immigration writes.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,881

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    Migration policy shouldn't be governed by fear of Nigel Farage who has no answers himself to the problem apart from saying how bad every other solution happens to be.

    What of the costs of flying people to this "processing centre outside Europe"? (I presume we mean Rwanda or somewhere similar).

    I presume the "hope" of those advocating such a solution is the possibility of ending up in a camp outside Kigali would be such a deterrent as to stop anyone trying to even attempt a crossing of the Channel.

    Perhaps, I'm not wholly convinced. I'm also far from confident either we or the French have the resources to stop every dinghy or small boat and as you rightly say what we don't want is drowned people on beaches.

    As for the ECHR, I'm not well informed as to the consequences of us leaving and suspect there would be significant disadvantages above and beyond what happens to those on the "small boats".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,169
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    JUST SAW MY FLAT ON THE CRICKET!!

    Were you in or out?
    I actually saw myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at myself bare chested staring at the TV looking at...
    So unlike Zak Crawley five minutes into his average innings, he was not out.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,353
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:

    Starmer Macron conference at 15.30

    Now 16.00

    Still waiting at 16.24

    Starmer's haggling him down from handing over Kent and Sussex in exchange for the Bayeux Tapestry to just Kent. With an option on the Channel Islands.
    If we chuck in Essex then the French get Farage. And Patel. And Badenoch. This is worth considering...
    Plus, it would present Andrew Rosindell with an impossible choice. Does he accept that Romford is part of London, or become a Frenchman?
    Hmm, Romford and Ilford would have to stay, for you and Sunil. Plus the very small enclave comprising OKC's house somewhere near Witham.
    Surely OKC’s house would be an exclave not an enclave?

    Transcolia.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,152

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, ye

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    That's a bit like someone in Germany in 1931 saying "Round up all the Jews to prevent Hitler a Hitler coronation".

    Hard to see the difference between your proposed treatment and the disease you're trying to avoid.

    To compare my comments with 1931 Germany is unworthy of you @Benpointer

    They would be processed and either allowed back into the UK or their claim rejected
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,688

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    Yeah that’s fine. We just have to (a) build a processing centre, (b) staff a processing centre, (c) pay for regular secure flights to said processing centre, (d) ensure that lawyers and judges have reasonable access in order to in fact process applications, (e) have a plan to deal with asylum seekers who do not declare where they are from and are not willing to leave.

    Expensive. And time consuming. Suddenly “outside Europe” seems impractical. Of course it’s possible and we should probably do it if we can find a suitable location but it’s not simple with no downsides, as with everything.
    A few flights and the boats would stop

    Labour should have refined Rwanda but certainly today's announcement was a farce
    They might stop. But you’re still talking about a massive investment for “a few flights”. Then you have to keep that investment going because you can’t wind it down otherwise the deterrent is removed.

    Like I have said over and over again, not simple. I think it makes more sense to make said massive investment on the mainland UK and spend the time and energy quickly processing people (with new laws to facilitate this if necessary) and deportations. Otherwise you’ll end up with what amounts to a prison on the other side of the world.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,054

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    That's a bit like someone in Germany in 1931 saying "Round up all the Jews to prevent Hitler a Hitler coronation".

    Hard to see the difference between your proposed treatment and the disease you're trying to avoid.
    An apologist for illegal immigration writes.
    Someone who can't answer the point being made tosses out an ad hominem insult instead.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,192

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    Yeah that’s fine. We just have to (a) build a processing centre, (b) staff a processing centre, (c) pay for regular secure flights to said processing centre, (d) ensure that lawyers and judges have reasonable access in order to in fact process applications, (e) have a plan to deal with asylum seekers who do not declare where they are from and are not willing to leave.

    Expensive. And time consuming. Suddenly “outside Europe” seems impractical. Of course it’s possible and we should probably do it if we can find a suitable location but it’s not simple with no downsides, as with everything.
    A few flights and the boats would stop

    Labour should have refined Rwanda but certainly today's announcement was a farce
    I would like to think they would stop, but I doubt it. Smuggling is a business, and the operators are selling dreams to their customers, not reality. Would the customers even get to know about the flights, or would the smugglers' promises of a land of milk and honey overwhelm reality?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,027
    ...

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    Yeah that’s fine. We just have to (a) build a processing centre, (b) staff a processing centre, (c) pay for regular secure flights to said processing centre, (d) ensure that lawyers and judges have reasonable access in order to in fact process applications, (e) have a plan to deal with asylum seekers who do not declare where they are from and are not willing to leave.

    Expensive. And time consuming. Suddenly “outside Europe” seems impractical. Of course it’s possible and we should probably do it if we can find a suitable location but it’s not simple with no downsides, as with everything.
    If PIP applications can be handled remotely, why can't asylum applications? The process is ludicrously long at present, and the system means that there is no limit on appeals, so if your claim is rejected, you can apeal ad infinitum. Why does the process even need to be a judicial one? It should be radically sped up, unclogging the court system and freeing up time for lawyers and judges - wouldn't that be nice?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,688

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, ye

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    That's a bit like someone in Germany in 1931 saying "Round up all the Jews to prevent Hitler a Hitler coronation".

    Hard to see the difference between your proposed treatment and the disease you're trying to avoid.

    To compare my comments with 1931 Germany is unworthy of you @Benpointer

    They would be processed and either allowed back into the UK or their claim rejected
    So you need to find a location that has theoretical unlimited capacity to be a holding location for illegal immigrants indefinitely. Because “claim rejected” doesn’t mean they leave of their own free will.

    Hint, that wasn’t Rwanda. Rwanda is a sovereign state who surprise surprise don’t want to be an unlimited dumping ground.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,152

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    Yeah that’s fine. We just have to (a) build a processing centre, (b) staff a processing centre, (c) pay for regular secure flights to said processing centre, (d) ensure that lawyers and judges have reasonable access in order to in fact process applications, (e) have a plan to deal with asylum seekers who do not declare where they are from and are not willing to leave.

    Expensive. And time consuming. Suddenly “outside Europe” seems impractical. Of course it’s possible and we should probably do it if we can find a suitable location but it’s not simple with no downsides, as with everything.
    A few flights and the boats would stop

    Labour should have refined Rwanda but certainly today's announcement was a farce
    They might stop. But you’re still talking about a massive investment for “a few flights”. Then you have to keep that investment going because you can’t wind it down otherwise the deterrent is removed.

    Like I have said over and over again, not simple. I think it makes more sense to make said massive investment on the mainland UK and spend the time and energy quickly processing people (with new laws to facilitate this if necessary) and deportations. Otherwise you’ll end up with what amounts to a prison on the other side of the world.
    Your last sentence would hugely increase the problem

    It worked for Australia
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,809

    I like England’s tactics of putting Crawley and Duckett in first to lull the opposition into a false sense of security before bring in the batsmen.

    Crawley has to be dropped.
    Several times if he is to get a half decent score.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,027

    nico67 said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Macron

    This pilot framework will be decided once the legal issues are resolved and agreed in the EU

    So not agreed yet

    Hello ECHR

    Oh god. He hasn’t actually got any agreement at all, yet?

    He is so dismally wet
    Got an agreement to try to agree an agreement....
    I know I keep banging on about this, but Starmer needs to stop seeking agreements by consent using legal frameworks, and start imposing solutions by force without consent. The small boats should be turned around and sent back whence they came.

    If the French disapprove they can start a war. If the lawyers disapprove then laws should be passed to disapply human rights legislation outside the UK jurisdiction against the armed forces. If the Navy disagree, then a new branch ("Border Security") should be created to do it and the RN can bugger off to the Falklands.

    But we need to stop asking people, since they obviously aren't getting it done.
    You’re asking those deemed with that task to try and force boats to turn back to France and what happens when some sink and people drown. Practically forcing a boat to turn round isn’t easy notwithstanding the moral issues.
    You bring them ashore safely then fly them to a processing centre outside Europe

    And if necessary leave the ECHR

    This present position cannot continue if the country wants to prevent a Farage coronation
    Yeah that’s fine. We just have to (a) build a processing centre, (b) staff a processing centre, (c) pay for regular secure flights to said processing centre, (d) ensure that lawyers and judges have reasonable access in order to in fact process applications, (e) have a plan to deal with asylum seekers who do not declare where they are from and are not willing to leave.

    Expensive. And time consuming. Suddenly “outside Europe” seems impractical. Of course it’s possible and we should probably do it if we can find a suitable location but it’s not simple with no downsides, as with everything.
    A few flights and the boats would stop

    Labour should have refined Rwanda but certainly today's announcement was a farce
    I would like to think they would stop, but I doubt it. Smuggling is a business, and the operators are selling dreams to their customers, not reality. Would the customers even get to know about the flights, or would the smugglers' promises of a land of milk and honey overwhelm reality?
    Fair point - not like they have access to the information superhighway. It is only the 17th century after all.
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