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Latest general election betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,560
edited July 7 in General
Latest general election betting – politicalbetting.com

On Saturday when the story about James McMurdock broke punters took a dim view about the scandal but Reform have retaken their place as favourites for the most seats. Given his conviction for assaulting his girlfriend I don’t think Nigel Farage will be too upset by this scandal although it is another failure for Reform’s vetting process.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    Good morning.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    edited July 7
    Reform needs to reform itself ?
    Before it starts on the rest of us.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    Good to clear that up.

    Reporter: Do the tariff rates change at all on July 9th or do they change on August 1st?

    Trump: What are you talking about?

    Reporter: Tariff rates. Do they change on July 9th or August 1st?

    Trump: They're going to be tariffs. The tariffs are going to be the tariffs. I think we'll have most countries done by July 9th. Yeah. Either a letter or a deal.

    Lutnick: But they go into effect August 1st

    https://x.com/Acyn/status/1941976912945193107
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    Laos will send soldiers to Russia to help them against Ukraine in the Kursk region.

    The Laotian soldiers are supposed to demine the area and help free up Russian soldiers who will then go to fight in Ukraine itself. Laos has been a communist state since 1975.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1941539171321118969
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,727
    Good morning, everybody.

    I'm afraid lots of people will vote Reform. ISTM that in the US, people who voted Republican may not like a lot of what Mr Trump is doing, but they strongly approve of what he's doing about their particular hobby horse. It may be the same here.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,065
    edited July 7
    Suddenly I am surrounded by Russians, clearly all here on a coach tour. And not the sort of moneyed, glamorous Russians you might come across in the Med; this lot looks like the late shift at the tank factory, here on a works outing.

    To get to Murmansk from here would be 17 hours on the road, so on a par with Brits going by coach to the Med.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,665
    IanB2 said:

    Suddenly I am surrounded by Russians, clearly all here on a coach tour. And not the sort of moneyed, glamorous Russians you might come across in the Med; this lot looks like the late shift at the tank factory, here on a works outing.

    Ask them what they think about vaccines and BA pilots.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,188
    IanB2 said:

    Suddenly I am surrounded by Russians, clearly all here on a coach tour. And not the sort of moneyed, glamorous Russians you might come across in the Med; this lot looks like the late shift at the tank factory, here on a works outing.

    How many of them have logged onto PB on a Saturday morning?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that Trump's agencies would come to this conclusion.

    President Trump's Justice Department and FBI have concluded they have no evidence that Jeffrey Epstein blackmailed powerful figures, kept a "client list” or was murdered, according to a memo detailing the findings obtained by Axios.
    https://x.com/axios/status/1942023706328420837
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,188
    Nigelb said:

    I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that Trump's agencies would come to this conclusion.

    President Trump's Justice Department and FBI have concluded they have no evidence that Jeffrey Epstein blackmailed powerful figures, kept a "client list” or was murdered, according to a memo detailing the findings obtained by Axios.
    https://x.com/axios/status/1942023706328420837

    @MeidasTouch

    Pam Bondi in February: The Epstein client list is sitting on my desk right now to review.

    Pam Bondi today: There is no Epstein client list and no "further disclosure" of Epstein-related material "would be appropriate or warranted."

    https://x.com/MeidasTouch/status/1942037456741863792
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,045
    Nigelb said:

    Laos will send soldiers to Russia to help them against Ukraine in the Kursk region.

    The Laotian soldiers are supposed to demine the area and help free up Russian soldiers who will then go to fight in Ukraine itself. Laos has been a communist state since 1975.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1941539171321118969

    "My name is Putin, King of Kings ... "
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    edited July 7
    Anderson has an easy gig as Chief flagellater. Sarah, Richard you voting no on this? K, i'm off to the 30p cafe

    They are going to hoover up a lot of NOTA votes, protest votes in locals etc and will dominate the 'immigration top concern' market. But we dont yet know how the 'vote, but arent nerds like that pb lot and switch off from active consideration between GEs' people will break, nor if the vote strike ConLab voters will return or how they will break. My working assumption is a slight recovery in both Lab and Con numbers from wherever they are a year or so out (say after LE, London and other Mayorals 28 if we go full term)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,065
    Anyhow, here’s today’s photo nice and early, as I’m now off on the road to catch a ferry…today’s sunset will be 0038, sunrise 0153.




  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,727
    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    Somebody pointed out that not all poor people are on benefits, and ISTM the cliff edge just gets steeper and higher all the time.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,610
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that Trump's agencies would come to this conclusion.

    President Trump's Justice Department and FBI have concluded they have no evidence that Jeffrey Epstein blackmailed powerful figures, kept a "client list” or was murdered, according to a memo detailing the findings obtained by Axios.
    https://x.com/axios/status/1942023706328420837

    @MeidasTouch

    Pam Bondi in February: The Epstein client list is sitting on my desk right now to review.

    Pam Bondi today: There is no Epstein client list and no "further disclosure" of Epstein-related material "would be appropriate or warranted."

    https://x.com/MeidasTouch/status/1942037456741863792
    I wonder if this photo helps explain the suddenly lost evidence


  • eekeek Posts: 30,610

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,727

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Apparently. If we're in such dire straits as that, it would be better to introduce rationing - since there's no shortage of food, the rations would be generous but poor people could sell some of their rations to the better-off. Especially if they rationed the Waitrose style stuff and not the Aldi-style stuff.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,142

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    To be exact, it appears the new chief of the IFS is in favour of it, so it may not be official policy. But really...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,142

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, here’s today’s photo nice and early, as I’m now off on the road to catch a ferry…today’s sunset will be 0038, sunrise 0153.




    Looks like Dog for Scale is about to do a crap.
    IFS to hire him?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,794
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that Trump's agencies would come to this conclusion.

    President Trump's Justice Department and FBI have concluded they have no evidence that Jeffrey Epstein blackmailed powerful figures, kept a "client list” or was murdered, according to a memo detailing the findings obtained by Axios.
    https://x.com/axios/status/1942023706328420837

    @MeidasTouch

    Pam Bondi in February: The Epstein client list is sitting on my desk right now to review.

    Pam Bondi today: There is no Epstein client list and no "further disclosure" of Epstein-related material "would be appropriate or warranted."

    https://x.com/MeidasTouch/status/1942037456741863792
    I wonder if this photo helps explain the suddenly lost evidence


    No trips for you stateside this decade then.....
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    edited July 7
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    Oh dear. That waiting list for an allotment is suddenly irritatingly long
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    To be exact, it appears the new chief of the IFS is in favour of it, so it may not be official policy. But really...
    That air stuff isnt attracting revenue like it could
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,568
    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,209
    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    Their job is to tot the numbers up, not to work through the political ramifications of such a change.

    It's a bit like raising fuel duty being a green and progressive thing to do (with the exception of rural communities), and advocated for by pretty much all think tanks, but we all know it will be a political disaster 10x worse than WFP.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,462
    edited July 7
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,610

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that Trump's agencies would come to this conclusion.

    President Trump's Justice Department and FBI have concluded they have no evidence that Jeffrey Epstein blackmailed powerful figures, kept a "client list” or was murdered, according to a memo detailing the findings obtained by Axios.
    https://x.com/axios/status/1942023706328420837

    @MeidasTouch

    Pam Bondi in February: The Epstein client list is sitting on my desk right now to review.

    Pam Bondi today: There is no Epstein client list and no "further disclosure" of Epstein-related material "would be appropriate or warranted."

    https://x.com/MeidasTouch/status/1942037456741863792
    I wonder if this photo helps explain the suddenly lost evidence


    No trips for you stateside this decade then.....
    I have zero interest in heading to the States or in fact anywhere outside Europe in the next few years.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,777

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    To be exact, it appears the new chief of the IFS is in favour of it, so it may not be official policy. But really...
    That air stuff isnt attracting revenue like it could
    Every breath you take,
    Every smile you fake,
    I'll be taxing you.

    Oh can't you see, you belong to me...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,674
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    To be exact, it appears the new chief of the IFS is in favour of it, so it may not be official policy. But really...
    There is a reasonable argument that VAT has become far too narrow and as a result too high, and that we should broaden the base, get rid of most of the sillier exemptions, and cut the rate. And reduce the registration threshold to levels comparable with most other developed countries.

    Not sure most people in the tax policy world would go the whole hog to standard rating all food though.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,794
    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    Effectively already done on cars with Expensive Car Supplement tax. And on handbags and clothing with Expensive Wife Supplement.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,777

    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0

    And this has all happened in the last 12 months? Wow.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,674
    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,142

    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0

    I misread that as 'Telegraph teaching prisoners how to make bombs.'

    Which made the rest of the article rather a nonsense.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,867
    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    All easily said, but the facts are a problem. We borrow £150 billion, every activity under state direction wants and needs more money - much more money, Labour MPs appear to believe in MMT as do many of the public, Truss history and the bond markets are a reality, there is no such thing as a popular and workable tax rise. PBers tell us that every tax on the well off means they all go to Monaco or Dubai; PBers tell us that every general tax on everyone (like VAT) will destroy the government.

    If my maths is right (it may not be) VAT on food and non alcoholic drink at a low rate - eg 5%- would raise only about £8 billion annually, a sum which is dwarfed by the demands on the state. At 20% it would raise about £32 billion, which begins to look like serious money.

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,729
    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,142
    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    Their job is to tot the numbers up, not to work through the political ramifications of such a change.

    It's a bit like raising fuel duty being a green and progressive thing to do (with the exception of rural communities), and advocated for by pretty much all think tanks, but we all know it will be a political disaster 10x worse than WFP.
    Then it's a very good job that nobody pays attention to them and none of their number ever enter politics.

    Why, can you imagine such an idiot in the cabinet? It would be like watching the Titanic sink after meeting an Iceberg.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,209

    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0

    There are only 500 Jewish prisoners though, so a few random incidents could have bumped those numbers up.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    To be exact, it appears the new chief of the IFS is in favour of it, so it may not be official policy. But really...
    There is a reasonable argument that VAT has become far too narrow and as a result too high, and that we should broaden the base, get rid of most of the sillier exemptions, and cut the rate. And reduce the registration threshold to levels comparable with most other developed countries.

    Not sure most people in the tax policy world would go the whole hog to standard rating all food though.
    £100 a month onto the average family shop would be a 'brave' policy decision!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,888

    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0

    The Buddhists are surprisingly violent.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,093

    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0

    If only he had done something when in power!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,462
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Would most of those OAPs with savings be buying higher end watches, designer coats, top end cars etc anyway? I don’t think it would have any effect on whether they save or spend but at least it gets more out of a cohort who are spending anyway?

    I don’t know a lot of OAPs but the ones I do know seem to be very keen on savings “just in case”. They want a cushion and to leave money to family and so not overly interested in big spending - and these are wealthy people anyway.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    Their job is to tot the numbers up, not to work through the political ramifications of such a change.

    It's a bit like raising fuel duty being a green and progressive thing to do (with the exception of rural communities), and advocated for by pretty much all think tanks, but we all know it will be a political disaster 10x worse than WFP.
    The suggested policy was accompanied by a proposal to increase the amount of means tested benefit to compensate... everyone on means tested benefit.

    So basically a proposal to risk sufficient political capital to sink a government in order to increase the state's share of the economy.

    I'd understand if today were April 1st.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,209
    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    Their job is to tot the numbers up, not to work through the political ramifications of such a change.

    It's a bit like raising fuel duty being a green and progressive thing to do (with the exception of rural communities), and advocated for by pretty much all think tanks, but we all know it will be a political disaster 10x worse than WFP.
    Then it's a very good job that nobody pays attention to them and none of their number ever enter politics.

    Why, can you imagine such an idiot in the cabinet? It would be like watching the Titanic sink after meeting an Iceberg.
    You can do both things - present the numbers and why it's brilliant, and then set out the practical, commercial, legal or reputational issues that make it incredibly stupid. The IFS just do the former.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,867
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Two points: Isn't all saving someone else's spending, so what's the problem with savers?

    If better off OAPs save, perhaps it is because they want maximum protection from the horrors of the social care disaster in their last years.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,093
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    I approve this message (Son just joined a holiday company selling foreign holidays)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,720
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: while I enjoyed watching F1 on Channel 4 live for once, it did, ironically, mean I couldn't watch the Channel 4 highlights (which I do occasionally, for especially good races).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    Their job is to tot the numbers up, not to work through the political ramifications of such a change.

    It's a bit like raising fuel duty being a green and progressive thing to do (with the exception of rural communities), and advocated for by pretty much all think tanks, but we all know it will be a political disaster 10x worse than WFP.
    Then it's a very good job that nobody pays attention to them and none of their number ever enter politics.

    Why, can you imagine such an idiot in the cabinet? It would be like watching the Titanic sink after meeting an Iceberg.
    You can do both things - present the numbers and why it's brilliant, and then set out the practical, commercial, legal or reputational issues that make it incredibly stupid. The IFS just do the former.
    It's neither.
    It would also increase the cliff edge problem for those trying to get off benefit and into work.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    We've just seem how Reform voters feel about being dragged back to vote because the candidate wasn't suitable or stepped down etc, twice
    And if he legitimately borrowed Covid funds for his businesses he won't be facing recall anyway, its if he didn't there's a problem.
    Reform have not backed him at all, so the chance of him being the Reform candidate in such circumstances are low
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,141
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    All easily said, but the facts are a problem. We borrow £150 billion, every activity under state direction wants and needs more money - much more money, Labour MPs appear to believe in MMT as do many of the public, Truss history and the bond markets are a reality, there is no such thing as a popular and workable tax rise. PBers tell us that every tax on the well off means they all go to Monaco or Dubai; PBers tell us that every general tax on everyone (like VAT) will destroy the government.

    If my maths is right (it may not be) VAT on food and non alcoholic drink at a low rate - eg 5%- would raise only about £8 billion annually, a sum which is dwarfed by the demands on the state. At 20% it would raise about £32 billion, which begins to look like serious money.

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.
    There are multiple much more workable solutions.

    Merge National Insurance and Income Tax should be top of the list so that everyone pays the same rate of tax regardless of how they earn their money, rather than people who work for a living being on a higher rate of tax.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,674
    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Would most of those OAPs with savings be buying higher end watches, designer coats, top end cars etc anyway? I don’t think it would have any effect on whether they save or spend but at least it gets more out of a cohort who are spending anyway?

    I don’t know a lot of OAPs but the ones I do know seem to be very keen on savings “just in case”. They want a cushion and to leave money to family and so not overly interested in big spending - and these are wealthy people anyway.
    This is one of those many cases where what makes absolute sense for the individual can be disastrous for the country as a whole. Others being taking your money out during a run on the bank, or buying a gun to protect yourself because you don’t trust law enforcement.

    Hence why we can’t rely on the individual to choose what’s best for the country. We need behavioural nudges.

    Having a properly structured social care offering would actually probably encourage those rainy day savers to splash the cash more. They’re perfectly capable of doing so when they put their mind to it.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    edited July 7

    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    We've just seem how Reform voters feel about being dragged back to vote because the candidate wasn't suitable or stepped down etc, twice
    And if he legitimately borrowed Covid funds for his businesses he won't be facing recall anyway, its if he didn't there's a problem.
    Reform have not backed him at all, so the chance of him being the Reform candidate in such circumstances are low
    That being said they might well win any by election as Con and Lab will both go very hard at the seat and may cancel each other out
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,462
    Battlebus said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    I approve this message (Son just joined a holiday company selling foreign holidays)
    I thought Son had decided to stay at Spurs. The transfer window always throws up the odd surprise.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,674
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Two points: Isn't all saving someone else's spending, so what's the problem with savers?

    If better off OAPs save, perhaps it is because they want maximum protection from the horrors of the social care disaster in their last years.
    Excessive UK private saving = more UK government spending. Japan shows the way: when you get a nation of savers you end up with 200%+ public debt to GDP.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,600
    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    I dislike the idea because it creates arbitrary thresholds and complications. It's also an invitation to corruption for industry representatives to "lobby" to have the threshold for their products increased.

    You'd also expect to see an increase in luxury car dealerships in Dublin, and other luxury goods retail pushed overseas, creating a compliance overhead.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,462
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Would most of those OAPs with savings be buying higher end watches, designer coats, top end cars etc anyway? I don’t think it would have any effect on whether they save or spend but at least it gets more out of a cohort who are spending anyway?

    I don’t know a lot of OAPs but the ones I do know seem to be very keen on savings “just in case”. They want a cushion and to leave money to family and so not overly interested in big spending - and these are wealthy people anyway.
    This is one of those many cases where what makes absolute sense for the individual can be disastrous for the country as a whole. Others being taking your money out during a run on the bank, or buying a gun to protect yourself because you don’t trust law enforcement.

    Hence why we can’t rely on the individual to choose what’s best for the country. We need behavioural nudges.

    Having a properly structured social care offering would actually probably encourage those rainy day savers to splash the cash more. They’re perfectly capable of doing so when they put their mind to it.
    I’m presuming you would call out NIMBYism by LibDems on this basis, perhaps when campaigning against developments in nice southern seats or similar?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    In a year or two, this will find its way into European markets.

    Whole-home lithium power used to be a rich man’s game.

    Now it’s “high-end graphics card” territory.

    This is a $2500, lithium polymer battery that would power an entire US residential house for >24hr.

    China is *crushing* it on kilowatt hours per dollar.

    https://x.com/lauriewired/status/1941555541152870887

    Order of magnitude cheaper than a Tesla powerwall.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,240

    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0

    Little known version of the Old Testament.
    Smite the Amalekites, and the screws.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,600
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Well that's a problem, because old people are generally more risk-averse, and don't have the physical or mental health to enjoy experiences that they might spend money on.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,867
    edited July 7
    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    Their job is to tot the numbers up, not to work through the political ramifications of such a change.

    It's a bit like raising fuel duty being a green and progressive thing to do (with the exception of rural communities), and advocated for by pretty much all think tanks, but we all know it will be a political disaster 10x worse than WFP.
    Then it's a very good job that nobody pays attention to them and none of their number ever enter politics.

    Why, can you imagine such an idiot in the cabinet? It would be like watching the Titanic sink after meeting an Iceberg.
    You can do both things - present the numbers and why it's brilliant, and then set out the practical, commercial, legal or reputational issues that make it incredibly stupid. The IFS just do the former.
    IFS know perfectly well that there is no popular and workable set of ideas for a tax system which raises the money the public and Labour MPs want for extra expenditure.

    So far PB critics of the IFS have not made a popular and workable counter suggestion. Nor have the welfarist Labour MPs. Without a few good ones a sovereign debt crisis looms.

    Mine, FWIW: VAT at low rate on food, tax/NI treatment of non working/pensioner income to be the same as that of workers by merging IT and NI, fuel duty to rise, IT to rise, higher rate VAT on luxuries, IHT at much lower rate but no exemptions, reform property taxes so that Buckingham Palace pays a lot more than semis in Scunthorpe.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,462
    edited July 7

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    I dislike the idea because it creates arbitrary thresholds and complications. It's also an invitation to corruption for industry representatives to "lobby" to have the threshold for their products increased.

    You'd also expect to see an increase in luxury car dealerships in Dublin, and other luxury goods retail pushed overseas, creating a compliance overhead.
    There are already arbitrary thresholds on taxes - whether it’s the level of income, stamp duty etc, someone somewhere sets those levels.

    Take Neil Kinnock’s idea yesterday for a wealth tax on people with £10m - why £10m and not £9m or £11m?

    And there would be no point buying the luxury car in Dublin and bringing it to the Uk as you are still going to have to pay the import duty and VAT etc. That’s why there isn’t a huge market where I live for people to buy luxury cars cheaper than the UK because by the time they have imported it the saving is gone.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Would most of those OAPs with savings be buying higher end watches, designer coats, top end cars etc anyway? I don’t think it would have any effect on whether they save or spend but at least it gets more out of a cohort who are spending anyway?

    I don’t know a lot of OAPs but the ones I do know seem to be very keen on savings “just in case”. They want a cushion and to leave money to family and so not overly interested in big spending - and these are wealthy people anyway.
    This is one of those many cases where what makes absolute sense for the individual can be disastrous for the country as a whole. Others being taking your money out during a run on the bank, or buying a gun to protect yourself because you don’t trust law enforcement.

    Hence why we can’t rely on the individual to choose what’s best for the country. We need behavioural nudges.

    Having a properly structured social care offering would actually probably encourage those rainy day savers to splash the cash more. They’re perfectly capable of doing so when they put their mind to it.
    I’m presuming you would call out NIMBYism by LibDems on this basis, perhaps when campaigning against developments in nice southern seats or similar?
    A significant factor behind nimbyism is the mismatch in incentives.
    If local government had more power to raise and retain income from local development, then there would tend to be more local support for it.

    Nimbyism is, partly at least, another legacy of government centralisation.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,611

    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    We've just seem how Reform voters feel about being dragged back to vote because the candidate wasn't suitable or stepped down etc, twice
    And if he legitimately borrowed Covid funds for his businesses he won't be facing recall anyway, its if he didn't there's a problem.
    Reform have not backed him at all, so the chance of him being the Reform candidate in such circumstances are low
    If he weren't the candidate. he would definitely stand again as an Independent or for Lowe's fash adjacent micro party just to fuck the Fukkers. He seems the type. You can tell by how he told the the ST journalist to 'be very careful'. Wannabe hard knock.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,867

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Well that's a problem, because old people are generally more risk-averse, and don't have the physical or mental health to enjoy experiences that they might spend money on.
    The older you get the more obvious it is that, once you have a roof over your head, the best things in life are very inexpensive or free. But it still may be handy to have enough in the old sock to fund late life social care, while hoping you don't need it.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,686
    EU counties which have reduced VAT rates on foodstuffs (the types and rates vary):-

    Austria
    Belgium
    Croatia
    Cyprus
    Czech Republic
    Finland
    France
    Germany
    Greece
    Hungary
    Ireland
    Italy
    Latvia
    Luxembourg
    Netherlands
    Portugal
    Romania
    Slovakia
    Slovenia
    Spain
    Sweden

    The U.K. has one of the widest category of zero rated exemptions.

  • eekeek Posts: 30,610
    Nigelb said:

    In a year or two, this will find its way into European markets.

    Whole-home lithium power used to be a rich man’s game.

    Now it’s “high-end graphics card” territory.

    This is a $2500, lithium polymer battery that would power an entire US residential house for >24hr.

    China is *crushing* it on kilowatt hours per dollar.

    https://x.com/lauriewired/status/1941555541152870887

    Order of magnitude cheaper than a Tesla powerwall.

    Not quite an order of magnitude but it’s not far off.

    You can already get close in the Uk - 30kwh for £3500 or under £100 per kWh if you can reclaim the VAT
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,067
    algarkirk said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    Their job is to tot the numbers up, not to work through the political ramifications of such a change.

    It's a bit like raising fuel duty being a green and progressive thing to do (with the exception of rural communities), and advocated for by pretty much all think tanks, but we all know it will be a political disaster 10x worse than WFP.
    Then it's a very good job that nobody pays attention to them and none of their number ever enter politics.

    Why, can you imagine such an idiot in the cabinet? It would be like watching the Titanic sink after meeting an Iceberg.
    You can do both things - present the numbers and why it's brilliant, and then set out the practical, commercial, legal or reputational issues that make it incredibly stupid. The IFS just do the former.
    IFS know perfectly well that there is no popular and workable set of ideas for a tax system which raises the money the public and Labour MPs want for extra expenditure.

    So far PB critics of the IFS have not made a popular and workable counter suggestion. Nor have the welfarist Labour MPs. Without a few good ones a sovereign debt crisis looms..
    PBers across the board have been coming up with all manner of such suggestions recently.
    There's no rule that says they have to recite them all over again when they point out that the IFS is being silly.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,865
    edited July 7
    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    You seem to have (although in fairness it is your view of Basildon voters rather than yourself) an unbalanced moral compass. I appear to to be a tax avoider by having ISAs (I forgot to mention I also have premium bonds as well, what a tax avoiding bastard I am) but alleged criminal activity (presumably alleged fraud) is, well, ok.

    Bear in mind there is no by election if he is innocent so the scenario of Basildon voters not minding only applies if he isn't.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    We've just seem how Reform voters feel about being dragged back to vote because the candidate wasn't suitable or stepped down etc, twice
    And if he legitimately borrowed Covid funds for his businesses he won't be facing recall anyway, its if he didn't there's a problem.
    Reform have not backed him at all, so the chance of him being the Reform candidate in such circumstances are low
    If he weren't the candidate. he would definitely stand again as an Independent or for Lowe's fash adjacent micro party just to fuck the Fukkers. He seems the type. You can tell by how he told the the ST journalist to 'be very careful'. Wannabe hard knock.
    Lowe and Habib have both insinuated hes been nobbled by Nige with Lowe talking warmly about him so I can see this, yes for sure
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,888

    algarkirk said:

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.

    My top three tax increases would be:

    1. Merge income tax and national insurance (thereby increasing tax on pensioner income).
    2. Restrict tax relief on pension contributions to the basic rate (given how wealthy some pensioners are it's arguable that higher rate taxpayers are saving too much for their retirement).
    3. Replace council tax and stamp duty with a proportional property tax, land value tax, or similar tax on property wealth.

    I'm sure all of these would provoke howls of outrage to make the kerfuffle over WFA look like the newest political ripple, but fixing the situation isn't going to be done without, as the politicians like to say, hard choices. And on spending, too.
    That last one is a non-starter for Labour given how badly Londoners would lose out.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,610

    algarkirk said:

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.

    My top three tax increases would be:

    1. Merge income tax and national insurance (thereby increasing tax on pensioner income).
    2. Restrict tax relief on pension contributions to the basic rate (given how wealthy some pensioners are it's arguable that higher rate taxpayers are saving too much for their retirement).
    3. Replace council tax and stamp duty with a proportional property tax, land value tax, or similar tax on property wealth.

    I'm sure all of these would provoke howls of outrage to make the kerfuffle over WFA look like the newest political ripple, but fixing the situation isn't going to be done without, as the politicians like to say, hard choices. And on spending, too.
    2 would have the consequence of me and other people doing less work than we do at the moment.

    Also there would be years where I wouldn’t be putting anything into my pension because it would be better left in my limited company as retained profits
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,240
    I can feel a good defenestration coming on.

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1942132189229162960
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,865
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    You seem to have (although in fairness it is your view of Basildon voters rather than yourself) an unbalanced moral compass. I appear to to be a tax avoider by having ISAs (I forgot to mention I also have premium bonds as well, what a tax avoiding bastard I am) but alleged criminal activity (presumably alleged fraud) is, well, ok.

    Bear in mind there is no by election if he is innocent so the scenario of Basildon voters not minding only applies if he isn't.
    PS Having said that you may well be correct as it is difficult to see who else the voters vote for. The obvious other protest vote is LD or Green, neither of which I believe are big in Basildon.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,906
    tlg86 said:

    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0

    The Buddhists are surprisingly violent.
    As the Rohingya found out!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,600
    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.

    My top three tax increases would be:

    1. Merge income tax and national insurance (thereby increasing tax on pensioner income).
    2. Restrict tax relief on pension contributions to the basic rate (given how wealthy some pensioners are it's arguable that higher rate taxpayers are saving too much for their retirement).
    3. Replace council tax and stamp duty with a proportional property tax, land value tax, or similar tax on property wealth.

    I'm sure all of these would provoke howls of outrage to make the kerfuffle over WFA look like the newest political ripple, but fixing the situation isn't going to be done without, as the politicians like to say, hard choices. And on spending, too.
    That last one is a non-starter for Labour given how badly Londoners would lose out.
    They're all a non-starter for all potential British governments, because none of them are able or willing to even make cutting WFA stick.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,906
    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    Everything Counts in large amounts!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    You seem to have (although in fairness it is your view of Basildon voters rather than yourself) an unbalanced moral compass. I appear to to be a tax avoider by having ISAs (I forgot to mention I also have premium bonds as well, what a tax avoiding bastard I am) but alleged criminal activity (presumably alleged fraud) is, well, ok.

    Bear in mind there is no by election if he is innocent so the scenario of Basildon voters not minding only applies if he isn't.
    PS Having said that you may well be correct as it is difficult to see who else the voters vote for. The obvious other protest vote is LD or Green, neither of which I believe are big in Basildon.
    2024 was 30/30/25 Ref/Lab/Con. If Lab or Con can cannibalise the other they win i think, if they split the vote, Reform hold in the low to mid 30s
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,576
    Tax? Well if we're not imposing a tax on all foreigners living abroad or a tax on thingy (you know, THNGY!!!) then we need to go after the daddy - Council Tax.

    This one is fairly straight forward - what we have now is utterly absurd. Valuations decades into the past with no band that covers the actual values of so many houses? Madness.

    Arguing that we must keep the status quo is cowardice. People don't like or understand council tax anyway, so replacing it shouldn't be that controversial.

    Two principles: we need to fund local government effectively, and property is far harder to move out of tax than cash or other assets. So a Land Value Tax to replace Council Tax. Based on actual land value today, not eons ago. Some places are quite expensive, others less so. Won't be as popular in Godalming as is will be in Grimsby.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I still can't see Basildon voters being that bothered about how much Mcmurdock borrowed for his businesses in lockdown.

    If there was a recall petition and by election in his Basildon and South Thurrock seat I suspect Reform would hold it even if McMurdock was the candidate

    You seem to have (although in fairness it is your view of Basildon voters rather than yourself) an unbalanced moral compass. I appear to to be a tax avoider by having ISAs (I forgot to mention I also have premium bonds as well, what a tax avoiding bastard I am) but alleged criminal activity (presumably alleged fraud) is, well, ok.

    Bear in mind there is no by election if he is innocent so the scenario of Basildon voters not minding only applies if he isn't.
    PS Having said that you may well be correct as it is difficult to see who else the voters vote for. The obvious other protest vote is LD or Green, neither of which I believe are big in Basildon.
    2024 was 30/30/25 Ref/Lab/Con. If Lab or Con can cannibalise the other they win i think, if they split the vote, Reform hold in the low to mid 30s
    In the recent council by election in Basildon (albeit Penfold/Francois bit of the area) the Labour vote collapsed, Tories gained a little from 2024 and Reform won on 40%, for reference.
    Essex is likely Ref vs Con right now in the main
  • eekeek Posts: 30,610
    edited July 7

    Tax? Well if we're not imposing a tax on all foreigners living abroad or a tax on thingy (you know, THNGY!!!) then we need to go after the daddy - Council Tax.

    This one is fairly straight forward - what we have now is utterly absurd. Valuations decades into the past with no band that covers the actual values of so many houses? Madness.

    Arguing that we must keep the status quo is cowardice. People don't like or understand council tax anyway, so replacing it shouldn't be that controversial.

    Two principles: we need to fund local government effectively, and property is far harder to move out of tax than cash or other assets. So a Land Value Tax to replace Council Tax. Based on actual land value today, not eons ago. Some places are quite expensive, others less so. Won't be as popular in Godalming as is will be in Grimsby.

    May result in prices in Godalming falling as the extra costs would filter through into what people can borrow on a mortgage

    The same way that sky high service charges mean 2 blocks of flat next to each other have very different upfront costs with the extra service charges reflected by the overall monthly cost of service charge + mortgage usually even out
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,428

    Tax? Well if we're not imposing a tax on all foreigners living abroad or a tax on thingy (you know, THNGY!!!) then we need to go after the daddy - Council Tax.

    This one is fairly straight forward - what we have now is utterly absurd. Valuations decades into the past with no band that covers the actual values of so many houses? Madness.

    Arguing that we must keep the status quo is cowardice. People don't like or understand council tax anyway, so replacing it shouldn't be that controversial.

    Two principles: we need to fund local government effectively, and property is far harder to move out of tax than cash or other assets. So a Land Value Tax to replace Council Tax. Based on actual land value today, not eons ago. Some places are quite expensive, others less so. Won't be as popular in Godalming as is will be in Grimsby.

    I also believe that almost all of a local council's budget should be levied via council tax - there should be no role for central government. If that means council taxes rise/fall then so be it.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,576
    I actually agree with the Lord Elon over the America Party. Their 2 party system is utterly corrupted and needs challenging. With the Democrats struggling with "do we select mentalists or the corrupt elite" and the Republicans now cheering on having their own faces eaten by leopards, the time is right for a challenge.

    Helps that the challenger has previously been in both party's orbits and accidentally has a bazillion dollars to spend and a major social media platform to use.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,301
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Would most of those OAPs with savings be buying higher end watches, designer coats, top end cars etc anyway? I don’t think it would have any effect on whether they save or spend but at least it gets more out of a cohort who are spending anyway?

    I don’t know a lot of OAPs but the ones I do know seem to be very keen on savings “just in case”. They want a cushion and to leave money to family and so not overly interested in big spending - and these are wealthy people anyway.
    This is one of those many cases where what makes absolute sense for the individual can be disastrous for the country as a whole. Others being taking your money out during a run on the bank, or buying a gun to protect yourself because you don’t trust law enforcement.

    Hence why we can’t rely on the individual to choose what’s best for the country. We need behavioural nudges.

    Having a properly structured social care offering would actually probably encourage those rainy day savers to splash the cash more. They’re perfectly capable of doing so when they put their mind to it.
    Right -- if you can save that much you tend to want to have enough in the bank to cover the 5% or 10% worst case outcome (both of poor investment performance and necessary care expenses), but that means that in 50% of outcomes you die with a pile of excess assets. A social care system that amortised outcomes over the whole population would help to alleviate that. I think this particularly matters in early retirement where you probably are still healthy and active enough to enjoy spending more but still hope to have a few more decades to cover with your savings.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,188

    I actually agree with the Lord Elon over the America Party. Their 2 party system is utterly corrupted and needs challenging. With the Democrats struggling with "do we select mentalists or the corrupt elite" and the Republicans now cheering on having their own faces eaten by leopards, the time is right for a challenge.

    Helps that the challenger has previously been in both party's orbits and accidentally has a bazillion dollars to spend and a major social media platform to use.

    https://x.com/TotalSeasons/status/1941799974510993557
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,794
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.

    My top three tax increases would be:

    1. Merge income tax and national insurance (thereby increasing tax on pensioner income).
    2. Restrict tax relief on pension contributions to the basic rate (given how wealthy some pensioners are it's arguable that higher rate taxpayers are saving too much for their retirement).
    3. Replace council tax and stamp duty with a proportional property tax, land value tax, or similar tax on property wealth.

    I'm sure all of these would provoke howls of outrage to make the kerfuffle over WFA look like the newest political ripple, but fixing the situation isn't going to be done without, as the politicians like to say, hard choices. And on spending, too.
    2 would have the consequence of me and other people doing less work than we do at the moment.

    Also there would be years where I wouldn’t be putting anything into my pension because it would be better left in my limited company as retained profits
    What is the social benefit to the government/taxpayer of someone having a private pension pot of £2m instead of £1m?

    Is it in any way close to the amount of tax currently forgiven?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,515
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    I completely missed this. They arent proposing bringing all food under VAT surely??
    Yep - it's that time this decade when the idea gets trotted out - alongside the response of you do know that's an incredibly regressive change because poor people spend more of their income on food than rich people..
    I still wonder whether it would work to have a second level of VAT on “luxury goods” where it doesn’t affect the lowest paid levels but it’s on purely discretionary spending on things that really are not necessary just desirable.

    For example, you could set a level of a price of car and then add on a luxury vat on purchase of cars over that amount, say £50k. Now there is absolutely no “need” to spend more than £50k on a car and is purely a choice made for reasons.

    If you cannot afford to pay the extra rate of luxury vat on your over 50k car then you should probably be questioning whether you should be in the market for a £50k car in the first place as a proportion of your wealth/disposable.

    Again this could be rolled out on multiple goods - watches over £200, handbags over £200, clothing over £200 (apart from specialist workwear/sports kit).

    There are huge sums spent on “unnecessary” goods in the UK, often that people are buying on the never-never where either the extra tax is rolled into their repayments or it makes people think a bit first.

    I can’t think of anyone who is going to be buying a Mercedes G65 who is going to not buy it because there is an extra £20k in tax on it, if you have to squeeze every penny you have to buy it under current VAT then just don’t buy it.

    I’m sure someone will point out why this won’t work though.
    One of the principal reasons for our sluggish growth in recent years is asset rich (generally older) people not spending enough money.

    Savings rates are through the roof and private debt is the lowest for decades.

    We need those OAPs buying as much tat as possible (so long as it’s eco friendly tat). And that includes foreign made goods and foreign holidays, because a large chunk of the associated economic activity and profit arises here.
    Two points: Isn't all saving someone else's spending, so what's the problem with savers?

    If better off OAPs save, perhaps it is because they want maximum protection from the horrors of the social care disaster in their last years.
    That's what's helping my Aunt now. She is looking at moving from sheltered accommodation to a care home.

    Being an Evil Saving Rich Horrible OAP, she has money in various investments she can use for this, instead of decently expecting the state to cough up all the money.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,665

    I can feel a good defenestration coming on.

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1942132189229162960

    He’s falling out of a window in the next six months.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,515

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just caught up with the IFS proposal for VAT on food.

    Where on earth do we dig these lunatics up, and why do we give them any airtime at all? Why are they not doing something on their own intellectual level like cleaning out a stables?

    If they are serious, I would remind them that Balfour had a majority comparable to Starmer's, but proposed taxes on food - much more modest ones - destroyed his government and very nearly his entire political movement.

    All easily said, but the facts are a problem. We borrow £150 billion, every activity under state direction wants and needs more money - much more money, Labour MPs appear to believe in MMT as do many of the public, Truss history and the bond markets are a reality, there is no such thing as a popular and workable tax rise. PBers tell us that every tax on the well off means they all go to Monaco or Dubai; PBers tell us that every general tax on everyone (like VAT) will destroy the government.

    If my maths is right (it may not be) VAT on food and non alcoholic drink at a low rate - eg 5%- would raise only about £8 billion annually, a sum which is dwarfed by the demands on the state. At 20% it would raise about £32 billion, which begins to look like serious money.

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.
    There are multiple much more workable solutions.

    Merge National Insurance and Income Tax should be top of the list so that everyone pays the same rate of tax regardless of how they earn their money, rather than people who work for a living being on a higher rate of tax.
    I am now convinced that only an inflation spike and a fairly major government borrowing crunch will teach the MMT types the error of their ways.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,142

    I can feel a good defenestration coming on.

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1942132189229162960

    He’s falling out of a window in the next six months.
    Trump, Musk, or both?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,520
    edited July 7
    An interesting wrinkle with Basildon South and East Thurrock is the 4.9% Neil Speight got in 4th as an indy. He might stand again, but hes an ex tory carrying on the tradition of indys being Tories with grey coats on.
    Had his votes gone to his former political home (i know i know but this is for illustration) then the result would have been

    30.8 Ref
    30.6 Con
    30.3 Lab

    Point being this is a very very tight seat
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,209
    edited July 7
    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.

    My top three tax increases would be:

    1. Merge income tax and national insurance (thereby increasing tax on pensioner income).
    2. Restrict tax relief on pension contributions to the basic rate (given how wealthy some pensioners are it's arguable that higher rate taxpayers are saving too much for their retirement).
    3. Replace council tax and stamp duty with a proportional property tax, land value tax, or similar tax on property wealth.

    I'm sure all of these would provoke howls of outrage to make the kerfuffle over WFA look like the newest political ripple, but fixing the situation isn't going to be done without, as the politicians like to say, hard choices. And on spending, too.
    That last one is a non-starter for Labour given how badly Londoners would lose out.
    I think even in London it could represent a tax cut for most households. The average for a flat in Haringey would be £2,200 per year, roughly equivalent to Band D, which is roughly in line with the change in house prices there since 1991.

    So your mean flat in central London would see only a small change. It absolutely hammers high value houses though, while the council tax charge in Hartlepool for a flat would drop to £400, which is at least 75% off.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,462

    I can feel a good defenestration coming on.

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1942132189229162960

    He’s falling out of a window in the next six months.
    Will his headstone say

    “I told you I didn’t like Windows”?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,665
    ydoethur said:

    I can feel a good defenestration coming on.

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1942132189229162960

    He’s falling out of a window in the next six months.
    Trump, Musk, or both?
    Elon.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,036
    Eabhal said:

    Terrorists teaching prisoners how to make bombs


    The Telegraph is concerned by the rising threat posed by Islamist prisoners, and so is everyone's favourite social media star:-

    Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, said: “Extremists and career criminals now operate with near impunity inside some of this country’s highest-security prisons.

    “That is a complete failure of leadership – and a dangerous abdication of one of the state’s core duties: maintaining order behind bars.

    “When Islamist terrorists and organised crime figures are left to forge alliances, we aren’t just witnessing a security lapse – we’re watching a national threat incubate in plain sight. This cannot be allowed to continue.”


    There is also a helpful graph to demonstrate this rising threat but can anyone spot an anomaly the Telegraph and Rob J have both missed?



    Non-paywalled gift link
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/469148674f565da0

    There are only 500 Jewish prisoners though, so a few random incidents could have bumped those numbers up.
    The graph says 23.1 assaults per 100 prisoners. If there are 500 Jewish prisoners, then that should be 115.5 assaults. Let's call it 115. This is probably Poisson distributed, so on that basis, we can calculate a 95% confidence interval of 95-138 events. That translates back to 19.0-27.6 assaults per 100 prisoners. The lower end of that confidence interval is still higher than the figure reported for Muslim prisoners, but the confidence intervals for the two groups probably overlap.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,036

    Tax? Well if we're not imposing a tax on all foreigners living abroad or a tax on thingy (you know, THNGY!!!) then we need to go after the daddy - Council Tax.

    This one is fairly straight forward - what we have now is utterly absurd. Valuations decades into the past with no band that covers the actual values of so many houses? Madness.

    Arguing that we must keep the status quo is cowardice. People don't like or understand council tax anyway, so replacing it shouldn't be that controversial.

    Two principles: we need to fund local government effectively, and property is far harder to move out of tax than cash or other assets. So a Land Value Tax to replace Council Tax. Based on actual land value today, not eons ago. Some places are quite expensive, others less so. Won't be as popular in Godalming as is will be in Grimsby.

    You could keep it even simpler: re-value and introduce higher bands.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,129
    A report on BBC news showing the police seizing illegal e-bikes. Good.

    West Yorkshire police - please follow this example.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,600
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    So the critics need to suggest solutions instead of being like Labour MPs who are being the problem rather than the solution.

    My top three tax increases would be:

    1. Merge income tax and national insurance (thereby increasing tax on pensioner income).
    2. Restrict tax relief on pension contributions to the basic rate (given how wealthy some pensioners are it's arguable that higher rate taxpayers are saving too much for their retirement).
    3. Replace council tax and stamp duty with a proportional property tax, land value tax, or similar tax on property wealth.

    I'm sure all of these would provoke howls of outrage to make the kerfuffle over WFA look like the newest political ripple, but fixing the situation isn't going to be done without, as the politicians like to say, hard choices. And on spending, too.
    2 would have the consequence of me and other people doing less work than we do at the moment.

    Also there would be years where I wouldn’t be putting anything into my pension because it would be better left in my limited company as retained profits
    I would use some of the money raised to get rid of some of the absurdities in the current taxation system - such as the withdrawal of the personal allowance - that create such high marginal rates of tax that many people are discouraged from working more.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,129

    Tax? Well if we're not imposing a tax on all foreigners living abroad or a tax on thingy (you know, THNGY!!!) then we need to go after the daddy - Council Tax.

    This one is fairly straight forward - what we have now is utterly absurd. Valuations decades into the past with no band that covers the actual values of so many houses? Madness.

    Arguing that we must keep the status quo is cowardice. People don't like or understand council tax anyway, so replacing it shouldn't be that controversial.

    Two principles: we need to fund local government effectively, and property is far harder to move out of tax than cash or other assets. So a Land Value Tax to replace Council Tax. Based on actual land value today, not eons ago. Some places are quite expensive, others less so. Won't be as popular in Godalming as is will be in Grimsby.

    I also believe that almost all of a local council's budget should be levied via council tax - there should be no role for central government. If that means council taxes rise/fall then so be it.
    Or flip it the other way - all tax should be raised centrally and handed out to local authorities by central government to meet local needs.
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