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Whatever happened to Rebecca Long-Bailey? She was the future once. – politicalbetting.com

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  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Europe is awash with record numbers of US tourists this year, says the FT. Certainly my anecdotal experience so far.

    London is as well, can't move around without bumping into US tourists. It definitely feels more than previous years.
    I met six in three different parties in five minutes in a remote patch of Cumberland last week - the sort of patch you have to stop and chat because it's like bumping into someone in the Sahara. They mostly began by apologising for being from the USA. As always with Americans in Cumbria they were all really nice, appreciative and friendly.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,046

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    I favour Streeting because of my book.

    That is all. That is enough for this site though surely?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,379

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    . Almost anyone would.
    Reeves and Lammy excepted.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Help

    I’m trapped in the rhodope mountains with a group of septegenarian Remainer trainspotters. It’s fucking ghastly

    I’m basically on holiday with PB. It’s not good. They are so frigging fecking f*cking boring with their tedious little lives and their pathetic little whines and their stupid Remainery moans about “the Tories” and I hate them and I’m going to throw them in a chasm tomorrow. Why are these people so dull???

    It’s like being trapped in a microlight with @kinabalu and @IanB2 for all eternity as the former enthuses about golf and the latter shows photos of his dog’s bottom and the food is cooked by BULGARIANS

    I have a bunker play lesson lined up. First one ever. Natural talent only takes you so far.
    My best advice for bunkers is not to hit it in them.

    Easy. That's saved you the £50.
    It can be very traumatic winding up in a bunker. One German Chancellor shot himself when stuck in one.
    Winding up should only be done in the House of Commons.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    maxh said:

    I'm sure some of you will enjoy this: https://commoncausefoundation.org/to-face-environmental-destruction-the-uk-media-must-help-england-face-its-past/

    "Last week, I attended "Voices from the Amazon: Our Stories, Our Solutions" – an event that brought together Indigenous creatives and activists sharing their experiences with international media. For me, what was clear throughout the event is that much of the UK (specifically English) media, and, indeed, environmental activists' engagement with Indigenous communities around the world continues to be extractive, even when seemingly focussed on 'averting ecological collapse'.

    "Instead of asking Indigenous people what they can teach us, perhaps the role of the media for an English audience is to help it engage with a more fundamental question: What can white Europeans, learn about them/ourselves from our historical commitment to the genocide of Indigenous people, and how might this inform their/our understanding of our role in driving current crises?

    "This isn't about historical guilt – it's about recognising that the same patterns of domination that drove colonialism continue to fuel environmental destruction today. Until we're willing to face this honestly, our responses to climate destruction (and the many interconnected crises, including global impoverishment of peoples, inequality, genocide, white supremacy, etc) will remain superficial."

    Any Government funding should be cut. Get a job.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,985
    maxh said:

    I'm sure some of you will enjoy this: https://commoncausefoundation.org/to-face-environmental-destruction-the-uk-media-must-help-england-face-its-past/

    "Last week, I attended "Voices from the Amazon: Our Stories, Our Solutions" – an event that brought together Indigenous creatives and activists sharing their experiences with international media. For me, what was clear throughout the event is that much of the UK (specifically English) media, and, indeed, environmental activists' engagement with Indigenous communities around the world continues to be extractive, even when seemingly focussed on 'averting ecological collapse'.

    "Instead of asking Indigenous people what they can teach us, perhaps the role of the media for an English audience is to help it engage with a more fundamental question: What can white Europeans, learn about them/ourselves from our historical commitment to the genocide of Indigenous people, and how might this inform their/our understanding of our role in driving current crises?

    "This isn't about historical guilt – it's about recognising that the same patterns of domination that drove colonialism continue to fuel environmental destruction today. Until we're willing to face this honestly, our responses to climate destruction (and the many interconnected crises, including global impoverishment of peoples, inequality, genocide, white supremacy, etc) will remain superficial."

    Sounds like my sort of conference. I might use some of the ideas for my next header, provisionally titled "White Privilege, Intersectional Feminism and the Case for Imperial Reparations".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,448
    I’ve just been told about Gerald’s upcoming slideshow on “funiculars of the former Yugoslavia”

    It’s after @foxy’s post dessert diatribe of peevish moral superiority, which he delivers every single f*cking evening, giving the whole party the sense that we’re stuffed in a car, sinking under the waves, with the radio locked onto a Radio 4 comedy about climate change, even as we gasp out our final moments

    Tomorrow’s salad is shopska. Again
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,532
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821
    MaxPB said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nearly 20,000 people arrived in the UK in the first half of this year by crossing the English Channel in small boats - up 48% on the first six months of 2024. The figure for the first six months of this year is also 75% higher than the equivalent figure for 2023, which was 11,433.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2vv4ndl4zo

    Utterly catastrophic

    What a year of government. Dramatic failure on every front

    Who expected them to be THIS bad?
    Er. Many of us. You were the mug who voted for them.
    I voted for them too. The troubling thing is that they were and still are the best option for government available.

    Does anyone seriously think that Reform have or will have a workable 10 year plan for sane government? Millions of their voters are from the group most dependent on the welfare state in every aspect.
    Labour don't have a workable plan for government either, why are you giving them a free pass?
    Agree. I'm not. All politics is relative. Labour is the least worst show in town. They are awful.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,002

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Europe is awash with record numbers of US tourists this year, says the FT. Certainly my anecdotal experience so far.

    They’ve all been complaining about the lack of a/c (as has Marine Le Pen).
    Unlike many US hotels, ours typically have a window that actually opens
    When it is 30+ outside, opening the window does not cut it.
    I know some software developers who work in Florida. The office air-con is set so cold that they have little electric heaters under their desks to keep them warm.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,665

    IanB2 said:

    Europe is awash with record numbers of US tourists this year, says the FT. Certainly my anecdotal experience so far.

    Tourist figures for year to date to Ireland were in the news here recently. Down overall, but a big drop in British and European tourists offset by an increase in North Americans. Here it is. NA +11%, Britain -9%, Continental Europe -21%, ROW -38%.

    The increase in North American visitors makes sense, since transatlantic airfares are down, because European tourists don't want to risk US border control.
    That’s interesting about continental Europe and I think reinforces my theory of French tourism to Ireland.

    Back in 2023 we visited friends in Co Waterford. The place was absolutely heaving with French tourists. By far the largest foreign nationality. As I generally never see many French in England outside London it came as a surprise. But why? My first theory was Brexit: perhaps nod it’s harder to come here especially without passports they’re going to the alternative. But that seemed unlikely because the distance makes Ireland harder to get to.

    Then I remembered that 2022 had been stinking hot in France, dangerously so. And throughout Southern and Western Europe. Those families had thought enough is enough, next year we’re going somewhere to escape this interminable heat. Some maybe headed to Scandinavia, but many made for Ireland.

    Last summer was wet and not particularly hot in France, so it stands to reason that they may have decided to give the Med another go this year.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,046
    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Yes, when changing models. They need to retool the factory and reengineer their work and supplies so a period of no manufacturing while that is done is normal.

    Doing it with so many models at once is unusual though.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,516
    edited July 1
    MaxPB said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nearly 20,000 people arrived in the UK in the first half of this year by crossing the English Channel in small boats - up 48% on the first six months of 2024. The figure for the first six months of this year is also 75% higher than the equivalent figure for 2023, which was 11,433.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2vv4ndl4zo

    Utterly catastrophic

    What a year of government. Dramatic failure on every front

    Who expected them to be THIS bad?
    Er. Many of us. You were the mug who voted for them.
    I voted for them too. The troubling thing is that they were and still are the best option for government available.

    Does anyone seriously think that Reform have or will have a workable 10 year plan for sane government? Millions of their voters are from the group most dependent on the welfare state in every aspect.
    Labour don't have a workable plan for government either, why are you giving them a free pass?
    No-one has a workable plan for government, and no-one is interested in creating one, because they all believe that they have to make a series of promises to the voters that makes a workable plan impossible - to whit, no increases in taxes (Income Tax, NI, VAT or property wealth) and no cuts to the main areas of expenditure (NHS, Pensioners).

    I've always voted. At every election. Except once, where a delayed train meant I was too late (for the local elections).

    Not sure if it's worth bothering next time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,259
    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nearly 20,000 people arrived in the UK in the first half of this year by crossing the English Channel in small boats - up 48% on the first six months of 2024. The figure for the first six months of this year is also 75% higher than the equivalent figure for 2023, which was 11,433.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2vv4ndl4zo

    Utterly catastrophic

    What a year of government. Dramatic failure on every front

    Who expected them to be THIS bad?
    Er. Many of us. You were the mug who voted for them.
    I voted for them too. The troubling thing is that they were and still are the best option for government available.

    Does anyone seriously think that Reform have or will have a workable 10 year plan for sane government? Millions of their voters are from the group most dependent on the welfare state in every aspect.
    Labour don't have a workable plan for government either, why are you giving them a free pass?
    Agree. I'm not. All politics is relative. Labour is the least worst show in town. They are awful.
    I don't know that they are. They couldn't get a 6% cut to the welfare budget through with a gigantic 160 seat majority. I really can't see how any of the others would be worse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,057

    https://x.com/WarMonitor3/status/1940095070100705423

    Trump hinting at deporting naturalised citizens in recent speech:
    Trump- “We also have a lot of bad people that have been here for a long time… many of them were born in our country. I think we ought to get them the hell out of here too"

    He has to be stopped. We don't want him over here.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,684

    maxh said:

    I'm sure some of you will enjoy this: https://commoncausefoundation.org/to-face-environmental-destruction-the-uk-media-must-help-england-face-its-past/

    "Last week, I attended "Voices from the Amazon: Our Stories, Our Solutions" – an event that brought together Indigenous creatives and activists sharing their experiences with international media. For me, what was clear throughout the event is that much of the UK (specifically English) media, and, indeed, environmental activists' engagement with Indigenous communities around the world continues to be extractive, even when seemingly focussed on 'averting ecological collapse'.

    "Instead of asking Indigenous people what they can teach us, perhaps the role of the media for an English audience is to help it engage with a more fundamental question: What can white Europeans, learn about them/ourselves from our historical commitment to the genocide of Indigenous people, and how might this inform their/our understanding of our role in driving current crises?

    "This isn't about historical guilt – it's about recognising that the same patterns of domination that drove colonialism continue to fuel environmental destruction today. Until we're willing to face this honestly, our responses to climate destruction (and the many interconnected crises, including global impoverishment of peoples, inequality, genocide, white supremacy, etc) will remain superficial."

    Any Government funding should be cut. Get a job.
    I must admit, I specifically had you in mind Lucky when I posted this. Just your sort of thing.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,665
    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Help

    I’m trapped in the rhodope mountains with a group of septegenarian Remainer trainspotters. It’s fucking ghastly

    I’m basically on holiday with PB. It’s not good. They are so frigging fecking f*cking boring with their tedious little lives and their pathetic little whines and their stupid Remainery moans about “the Tories” and I hate them and I’m going to throw them in a chasm tomorrow. Why are these people so dull???

    It’s like being trapped in a microlight with @kinabalu and @IanB2 for all eternity as the former enthuses about golf and the latter shows photos of his dog’s bottom and the food is cooked by BULGARIANS

    Nobody says earning a living is easy. Suck up the flint.
    True. Whenever, in future, someone says “oh Leon you have an easy life drifting from place to place as other people pay” I shall point them at THIS assignment and say “I too have suffered”

    I should get an extra hardship payment

    The next time a retired Librarian from Newent with his wife Moira says “oh WE never read the daily mail” like it’s some lifetime achievement of BBC-approved beigeness I’m going to take my tiny Bulgarian cutlery and stick it in his f*cking rheumy eyeball
    This is the easy, cheap, sophisticated talk of someone who has never been on holiday to Silloth in a caravan with three children under five in a week when it never stopped raining and the car broke down.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,586
    AV thread in the morning.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,924

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,532

    MaxPB said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nearly 20,000 people arrived in the UK in the first half of this year by crossing the English Channel in small boats - up 48% on the first six months of 2024. The figure for the first six months of this year is also 75% higher than the equivalent figure for 2023, which was 11,433.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2vv4ndl4zo

    Utterly catastrophic

    What a year of government. Dramatic failure on every front

    Who expected them to be THIS bad?
    Er. Many of us. You were the mug who voted for them.
    I voted for them too. The troubling thing is that they were and still are the best option for government available.

    Does anyone seriously think that Reform have or will have a workable 10 year plan for sane government? Millions of their voters are from the group most dependent on the welfare state in every aspect.
    Labour don't have a workable plan for government either, why are you giving them a free pass?
    No-one has a workable plan for government, and no-one is interested in creating one, because they all believe that they have to make a series of promises to the voters that makes a workable plan impossible - to whit, no increases in taxes (Income Tax, NI, VAT or property wealth) and no cuts to the main areas of expenditure (NHS, Pensioners).

    I've always voted. At every election. Except once, where a delayed train meant I was too late.

    Not sure if it's worth bothering next time.
    I voted SDP last time. If there was a GE tomorrow, I would do so again.
    One of the reassuring things about their manifesto was its lack of unworkable promises.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,057
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Help

    I’m trapped in the rhodope mountains with a group of septegenarian Remainer trainspotters. It’s fucking ghastly

    I’m basically on holiday with PB. It’s not good. They are so frigging fecking f*cking boring with their tedious little lives and their pathetic little whines and their stupid Remainery moans about “the Tories” and I hate them and I’m going to throw them in a chasm tomorrow. Why are these people so dull???

    It’s like being trapped in a microlight with @kinabalu and @IanB2 for all eternity as the former enthuses about golf and the latter shows photos of his dog’s bottom and the food is cooked by BULGARIANS

    Nobody says earning a living is easy. Suck up the flint.
    True. Whenever, in future, someone says “oh Leon you have an easy life drifting from place to place as other people pay” I shall point them at THIS assignment and say “I too have suffered”

    I should get an extra hardship payment

    The next time a retired Librarian from Newent with his wife Moira says “oh WE never read the daily mail” like it’s some lifetime achievement of BBC-approved beigeness I’m going to take my tiny Bulgarian cutlery and stick it in his f*cking rheumy eyeball
    I can 100% guarantee that will never happen.

    Because his wife's name is Jean.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,129

    isam said:

    He definitely needs somebody else to write his tweets


    If it happens... gonna be funny when you try and defend Farage's train wreck of a government in around five years time.
    That’s a worrying post… it sounds as though you’re gearing up to talk down Britain!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,924
    Leon said:

    I’ve just been told about Gerald’s upcoming slideshow on “funiculars of the former Yugoslavia”

    It’s after @foxy’s post dessert diatribe of peevish moral superiority, which he delivers every single f*cking evening, giving the whole party the sense that we’re stuffed in a car, sinking under the waves, with the radio locked onto a Radio 4 comedy about climate change, even as we gasp out our final moments

    Tomorrow’s salad is shopska. Again

    Bulgaria is reputed to excel at vegetables?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,532
    Leon said:

    I’ve just been told about Gerald’s upcoming slideshow on “funiculars of the former Yugoslavia”

    It’s after @foxy’s post dessert diatribe of peevish moral superiority, which he delivers every single f*cking evening, giving the whole party the sense that we’re stuffed in a car, sinking under the waves, with the radio locked onto a Radio 4 comedy about climate change, even as we gasp out our final moments

    Tomorrow’s salad is shopska. Again

    I've never really had the opportunity for solo travel. But isn't part of the joy of it that should you find your companions dull you needn't spend any time with them?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,002

    Congratulations to the Government for defeating the rebels and cutting the welfare bill by

    £5,000,000,000
    £2,000,000,000

    -£100,000,000

    If you legislate about enough rounding errors - surely, in the end, it works out?

    In my very back-of-a-fag-packet calculations - a full days Westminster debate works out at ballpark £4mil to the taxpayer (depending how you count it). Let's half it as we're generous.

    So today (not counting the countless days and hours involved outside of today) has 'saved' about 50 days of taxpayer money at some rather unspecified point in the future.

    Makes you right proud.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,417
    Ouch! Daily Mail - "Who IS running the country, Keir? Starmer humbled as Labour rebels force him to gut benefits reforms so they will cost taxpayers MORE instead of saving £5bn"
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14865525/Keir-Starmer-retreat-waters-welfare-cuts-rebellion-Labour.html
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,512
    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821
    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    This could be right. But, commercial considerations aside, the Jaguar as it exists from its great days is an ineradicable presence in the mind of those who (perhaps as small boys) lived through part of it, and unlike anything else anyone has produced. It is as unmistakable as a classic female shape.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,676

    Congratulations to the Government for defeating the rebels and cutting the welfare bill by

    £5,000,000,000
    £2,000,000,000

    -£100,000,000

    If Kendall doesnt resign by tomorrow there is no shame in this government. No damn shame
    Whether Kendall goes or not (she should) surely this does mean the end of Reeves. Maybe not immediately (they need her to carry the can for tax rises in the Autumn) but surely they can’t have her hovering with her begging bowl after every government decision.

    Absent an economic boom appearing from nowhere, Labour surely can’t have her as chancellor much longer.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,193
    IanB2 said:

    Europe is awash with record numbers of US tourists this year, says the FT. Certainly my anecdotal experience so far.

    Anecdotally the same in Stockbridge in Edinburgh this am; mainly younger couples, some with kids. Not to make assumptions but they didn’t look like types to enjoy vacationing in Trumpland.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,684
    Foxy said:

    maxh said:

    I'm sure some of you will enjoy this: https://commoncausefoundation.org/to-face-environmental-destruction-the-uk-media-must-help-england-face-its-past/

    "Last week, I attended "Voices from the Amazon: Our Stories, Our Solutions" – an event that brought together Indigenous creatives and activists sharing their experiences with international media. For me, what was clear throughout the event is that much of the UK (specifically English) media, and, indeed, environmental activists' engagement with Indigenous communities around the world continues to be extractive, even when seemingly focussed on 'averting ecological collapse'.

    "Instead of asking Indigenous people what they can teach us, perhaps the role of the media for an English audience is to help it engage with a more fundamental question: What can white Europeans, learn about them/ourselves from our historical commitment to the genocide of Indigenous people, and how might this inform their/our understanding of our role in driving current crises?

    "This isn't about historical guilt – it's about recognising that the same patterns of domination that drove colonialism continue to fuel environmental destruction today. Until we're willing to face this honestly, our responses to climate destruction (and the many interconnected crises, including global impoverishment of peoples, inequality, genocide, white supremacy, etc) will remain superficial."

    Sounds like my sort of conference. I might use some of the ideas for my next header, provisionally titled "White Privilege, Intersectional Feminism and the Case for Imperial Reparations".
    Amongst myriad other services to humanity, I think those paragraphs so neatly encapsulate the supposedly undefinable 'woke' that it should end all debate on said definition on this august site forever.

    Whenever @JosiasJessop pops up to claim that woke is undefinable I shall simply repost these paragraphs.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,684
    edited July 1

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    The Oval Office meetings would be....interesting.

    ETA: Just out of interest Lucky, are you as anti-American as you used to be? I seem to recall you railing against the degree to which we were subservient to America (I rare note on which we agreed). Do you still feel the same or has Trump mollified you?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,259
    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,002

    Congratulations to the Government for defeating the rebels and cutting the welfare bill by

    £5,000,000,000
    £2,000,000,000

    -£100,000,000

    If Kendall doesnt resign by tomorrow there is no shame in this government. No damn shame
    Whether Kendall goes or not (she should) surely this does mean the end of Reeves. Maybe not immediately (they need her to carry the can for tax rises in the Autumn) but surely they can’t have her hovering with her begging bowl after every government decision.

    Absent an economic boom appearing from nowhere, Labour surely can’t have her as chancellor much longer.
    I could just about see an early budget and tearful farewell speech at Labour conference this year. 'Honour of my life', 'New challenges on the horizon', 'Inherited black hole', blah.

    Maybe off to the IMF or whatever to muck around with other countries finances. Decent gig.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,087
    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    maxh said:

    I'm sure some of you will enjoy this: https://commoncausefoundation.org/to-face-environmental-destruction-the-uk-media-must-help-england-face-its-past/

    "Last week, I attended "Voices from the Amazon: Our Stories, Our Solutions" – an event that brought together Indigenous creatives and activists sharing their experiences with international media. For me, what was clear throughout the event is that much of the UK (specifically English) media, and, indeed, environmental activists' engagement with Indigenous communities around the world continues to be extractive, even when seemingly focussed on 'averting ecological collapse'.

    "Instead of asking Indigenous people what they can teach us, perhaps the role of the media for an English audience is to help it engage with a more fundamental question: What can white Europeans, learn about them/ourselves from our historical commitment to the genocide of Indigenous people, and how might this inform their/our understanding of our role in driving current crises?

    "This isn't about historical guilt – it's about recognising that the same patterns of domination that drove colonialism continue to fuel environmental destruction today. Until we're willing to face this honestly, our responses to climate destruction (and the many interconnected crises, including global impoverishment of peoples, inequality, genocide, white supremacy, etc) will remain superficial."

    Sounds like my sort of conference. I might use some of the ideas for my next header, provisionally titled "White Privilege, Intersectional Feminism and the Case for Imperial Reparations".
    Amongst myriad other services to humanity, I think those paragraphs so neatly encapsulate the supposedly undefinable 'woke' that it should end all debate on said definition on this august site forever.

    Whenever @JosiasJessop pops up to claim that woke is undefinable I shall simply repost these paragraphs.
    I've never said it is 'undefinable'; just that those who screech about it seem unable and unwilling to define it.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,379

    Congratulations to the Government for defeating the rebels and cutting the welfare bill by

    £5,000,000,000
    £2,000,000,000

    -£100,000,000

    If Kendall doesnt resign by tomorrow there is no shame in this government. No damn shame
    Whether Kendall goes or not (she should) surely this does mean the end of Reeves. Maybe not immediately (they need her to carry the can for tax rises in the Autumn) but surely they can’t have her hovering with her begging bowl after every government decision.

    Absent an economic boom appearing from nowhere, Labour surely can’t have her as chancellor much longer.
    Yeah i think Reeves is on her way soon.
    Maybe very soon if 'Labour' decide to turn their backs on 'her' rules
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821
    MaxPB said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nearly 20,000 people arrived in the UK in the first half of this year by crossing the English Channel in small boats - up 48% on the first six months of 2024. The figure for the first six months of this year is also 75% higher than the equivalent figure for 2023, which was 11,433.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2vv4ndl4zo

    Utterly catastrophic

    What a year of government. Dramatic failure on every front

    Who expected them to be THIS bad?
    Er. Many of us. You were the mug who voted for them.
    I voted for them too. The troubling thing is that they were and still are the best option for government available.

    Does anyone seriously think that Reform have or will have a workable 10 year plan for sane government? Millions of their voters are from the group most dependent on the welfare state in every aspect.
    Labour don't have a workable plan for government either, why are you giving them a free pass?
    Agree. I'm not. All politics is relative. Labour is the least worst show in town. They are awful.
    I don't know that they are. They couldn't get a 6% cut to the welfare budget through with a gigantic 160 seat majority. I really can't see how any of the others would be worse.
    Name three.

    Or actually even one would be a start.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,057
    Anyway, so:

    Trump has said he will primary any Republican Senators who voted against his bill.

    Musk has said he will primary any Republican Senators who voted for it.

    Does this mean all Republican held Senate seats are now open?

    (Answer: no, but that would be very funny to watch.)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,993

    maxh said:

    I'm sure some of you will enjoy this: https://commoncausefoundation.org/to-face-environmental-destruction-the-uk-media-must-help-england-face-its-past/

    "Last week, I attended "Voices from the Amazon: Our Stories, Our Solutions" – an event that brought together Indigenous creatives and activists sharing their experiences with international media. For me, what was clear throughout the event is that much of the UK (specifically English) media, and, indeed, environmental activists' engagement with Indigenous communities around the world continues to be extractive, even when seemingly focussed on 'averting ecological collapse'.

    "Instead of asking Indigenous people what they can teach us, perhaps the role of the media for an English audience is to help it engage with a more fundamental question: What can white Europeans, learn about them/ourselves from our historical commitment to the genocide of Indigenous people, and how might this inform their/our understanding of our role in driving current crises?

    "This isn't about historical guilt – it's about recognising that the same patterns of domination that drove colonialism continue to fuel environmental destruction today. Until we're willing to face this honestly, our responses to climate destruction (and the many interconnected crises, including global impoverishment of peoples, inequality, genocide, white supremacy, etc) will remain superficial."

    Any Government funding should be cut. Get a job.
    It's more plausible than the bunch of conspiracy theories you believe in.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,924
    edited July 1

    IanB2 said:

    Europe is awash with record numbers of US tourists this year, says the FT. Certainly my anecdotal experience so far.

    Anecdotally the same in Stockbridge in Edinburgh this am; mainly younger couples, some with kids. Not to make assumptions but they didn’t look like types to enjoy vacationing in Trumpland.
    I was thinking of my Scotland trip in the spring, too, as well as Oslo these last few days. The other very noticeable thing post-Covid is the number of mostly clueless Chinese/Koreans, often on group tours, that you now find in every tourist spot. The Americans must be pleased at finally being promoted, to the second most clueless.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,002
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Help

    I’m trapped in the rhodope mountains with a group of septegenarian Remainer trainspotters. It’s fucking ghastly

    I’m basically on holiday with PB. It’s not good. They are so frigging fecking f*cking boring with their tedious little lives and their pathetic little whines and their stupid Remainery moans about “the Tories” and I hate them and I’m going to throw them in a chasm tomorrow. Why are these people so dull???

    It’s like being trapped in a microlight with @kinabalu and @IanB2 for all eternity as the former enthuses about golf and the latter shows photos of his dog’s bottom and the food is cooked by BULGARIANS

    Nobody says earning a living is easy. Suck up the flint.
    True. Whenever, in future, someone says “oh Leon you have an easy life drifting from place to place as other people pay” I shall point them at THIS assignment and say “I too have suffered”

    I should get an extra hardship payment

    The next time a retired Librarian from Newent with his wife Moira says “oh WE never read the daily mail” like it’s some lifetime achievement of BBC-approved beigeness I’m going to take my tiny Bulgarian cutlery and stick it in his f*cking rheumy eyeball
    This is the easy, cheap, sophisticated talk of someone who has never been on holiday to Silloth in a caravan with three children under five in a week when it never stopped raining and the car broke down.
    I remember a trip to Islay a few years ago. Walking with a backpack that was just heavy enough to scrape a hole in my flesh along the way. Discovered all the distilleries and pubs had already closed.

    Camped out in midge central while it poured rain. Woke up several times through the night due to more rain and icy cold wind. Then had to have a 'morning toilet trip' into the spiky gorse and heather in the morning while my 'poo shovel' had broken on first use.

    Then trudged back towards the ferry over muddy tracks which were covered in dead frogs - crunching and popping and slippery underfoot.

    Then waited almost 7hrs for the ferry - which came just before the pub opened.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    maxh said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    The Oval Office meetings would be....interesting.

    ETA: Just out of interest Lucky, are you as anti-American as you used to be? I seem to recall you railing against the degree to which we were subservient to America (I rare note on which we agreed). Do you still feel the same or has Trump mollified you?
    He has not changed my view on the relationship, but as before, he seems to lighten the tone.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
    As the book of Ecclesiastes says 'There is a time for a gaiety of nations PM and a time for a not gaiety of nations PM'. If this happens I shall spend every moment waiting for the grand Trollopian moment when, Eleanor Bold like, she slaps Trump in the face, followed by winning a 300 majority in a GE.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,821
    Evening all :)

    So this is purgatory it would seem whether you're a supporter of the current Labour Government, stuck in East London at the fag end of a heatwave gently simmering in your own front room or in Bulgaria surrounded by the travel colleagues from hell.

    It's probably a truism everyone creates their own purgatory.

    Ah well..

    On the subject of American tourists, if I had a quid for every time I'd been on a District Line tube at Tower Hill and some American gets in and asks if this is the right tube for King's Cross or Liverpool Street or Baker Street or Barbican, I'd need heavier trousers.

    What would Henry Beck and Frank Pick make of it all nearly a century on? Alas, another question to which there is no real answer.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    edited July 1
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
    As the book of Ecclesiastes says 'There is a time for a gaiety of nations PM and a time for a not gaiety of nations PM'. If this happens I shall spend every moment waiting for the grand Trollopian moment when, Eleanor Bold like, she slaps Trump in the face, followed by winning a 300 majority in a GE.
    But have we not just tried (twice if you include Sunak) a sober, responsible steady Eddie? And have they not both proven wanting?

    Vanity, vanity, all is vanity

    Whilst we're on the subject of Ecclesiastes.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,002
    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,586
    ohnotnow said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,985
    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    They shouldn't have gone with the pink multi ethnic advert.

    They should have shown a prototype James Bond Special, with a poppy paint job and Spitfire style wings with RAF roundels, surrounded by a bunch of fifty something blokes in jeans and brogues, pints in hand, in front of a pub named The Queen Elizabeth, with the strapline, "Lest We Forget".

    PB petrol heads would need weeks to clean the cream pie off their screens.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,532

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
    As the book of Ecclesiastes says 'There is a time for a gaiety of nations PM and a time for a not gaiety of nations PM'. If this happens I shall spend every moment waiting for the grand Trollopian moment when, Eleanor Bold like, she slaps Trump in the face, followed by winning a 300 majority in a GE.
    But have we not just tried (twice if you include Sunak) a sober, responsible steady Eddie? And have they not both proven wanting?

    Vanity, vanity, all is vanity

    Whilst we're on the subject of Ecclesiastes.
    There's nothing wrong with a dull PM. But nor should we assume that dullness equals competence.

    Particularly after this chump.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,140
    edited July 1
    DELETED
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    . Almost anyone would.
    Reeves and Lammy excepted.
    Hmm. Reeves I think would actually be a smidge better. The tiniest cigarette paper. Lammy a better personality, but seems not to like the UK very much, so not sure. But it's close run.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,586
    Scott_xP said:

    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.

    MMF?
    Yes.

    But my work is awesome, occasionally I have to sit in judgment on people who have said something innapropriate.

    My HR director had to have words when the technical term 'stepmommed' became a common parlance at work.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
    As the book of Ecclesiastes says 'There is a time for a gaiety of nations PM and a time for a not gaiety of nations PM'. If this happens I shall spend every moment waiting for the grand Trollopian moment when, Eleanor Bold like, she slaps Trump in the face, followed by winning a 300 majority in a GE.
    But have we not just tried (twice if you include Sunak) a sober, responsible steady Eddie? And have they not both proven wanting?

    Vanity, vanity, all is vanity

    Whilst we're on the subject of Ecclesiastes.
    There's nothing wrong with a dull PM. But nor should we assume that dullness equals competence.

    Particularly after this chump.
    And Sunak.

    And May.

    And some would say Brown.

    We've had a spectacular run of very incompetent 'grown up' PMs.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,002

    ohnotnow said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.
    If think it's good that you feel this is a safe space to admit you've broadened your relationship horizons. Well done, you. Quite heart-warming, in a way.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938

    ohnotnow said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.
    Posh people.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,586
    edited July 1
    ohnotnow said:

    ohnotnow said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.
    If think it's good that you feel this is a safe space to admit you've broadened your relationship horizons. Well done, you. Quite heart-warming, in a way.
    Well I went to an all boys school.

    But I live by the motto 'don't poke the payroll.'
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,586

    ohnotnow said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.
    Posh people.
    Bless, that's the thinking that makes people think Posh Spice is Posh.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,416
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    They shouldn't have gone with the pink multi ethnic advert.

    They should have shown a prototype James Bond Special, with a poppy paint job and Spitfire style wings with RAF roundels, surrounded by a bunch of fifty something blokes in jeans and brogues, pints in hand, in front of a pub named The Queen Elizabeth, with the strapline, "Lest We Forget".

    PB petrol heads would need weeks to clean the cream pie off their screens.
    At about the same time, Porsche did an ad that rather neatly encompassed the old, the new and the passing of a torch to a new generation.

    Without setting everything previous on fire.

    https://youtu.be/qsYemCksuFU?si=NRoPG0DAMWom_StX
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
    As the book of Ecclesiastes says 'There is a time for a gaiety of nations PM and a time for a not gaiety of nations PM'. If this happens I shall spend every moment waiting for the grand Trollopian moment when, Eleanor Bold like, she slaps Trump in the face, followed by winning a 300 majority in a GE.
    But have we not just tried (twice if you include Sunak) a sober, responsible steady Eddie? And have they not both proven wanting?

    Vanity, vanity, all is vanity

    Whilst we're on the subject of Ecclesiastes.
    Underrated book, and very much one for our times. Resigned, fatalistic but theistic, always kind (unlike some bible books), wittily observed eternal recurrence of the way of the world; the older you get the more it makes sense.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,676

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
    As the book of Ecclesiastes says 'There is a time for a gaiety of nations PM and a time for a not gaiety of nations PM'. If this happens I shall spend every moment waiting for the grand Trollopian moment when, Eleanor Bold like, she slaps Trump in the face, followed by winning a 300 majority in a GE.
    But have we not just tried (twice if you include Sunak) a sober, responsible steady Eddie? And have they not both proven wanting?

    Vanity, vanity, all is vanity

    Whilst we're on the subject of Ecclesiastes.
    There's nothing wrong with a dull PM. But nor should we assume that dullness equals competence.

    Particularly after this chump.
    And Sunak.

    And May.

    And some would say Brown.

    We've had a spectacular run of very incompetent 'grown up' PMs.
    I think it’s becoming increasingly clear that the people being elevated to high office in this country don’t possess the necessary skills to do the job.

    You need to take your party with you, inspire and lead them, and take them on a journey. Blair could do this. Thatcher too. Cameron to an extent. Boris could but he was also too lazy (you need to be a hard worker too). May, Sunak, Starmer have all had their strengths but none of them exude leadership or the ability to inspire.

    The odd one out is Brown, who was able to inspire tremendous loyalty in many of his followers, he just couldn’t connect with the electorate.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,624
    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,215
    Size isn't everything, particularly with majorities.
    I'm sure it's been noted in the past that a big majority can be problematic. Too much scope for political grandstanding by wannabe rebels and not enough ministerial positions to bribe ambitious MPs.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,076
    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    Wes Streeting may allow Rayner to take over, believing that she probably won't be there for more than a couple of years. Of course that may turn out to be wrong.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938

    ohnotnow said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.
    Posh people.
    Bless, that's the thinking that makes people think Posh Spice is Posh.
    No, it's the thinking of people who have experienced important and posh folk who have hereditary titles, and Private Secretaries.

    That's OK - you have Executive Assistants - good for you - very egalitarian.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,827
    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    Pink was the colour of the British Empire.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,827

    AV thread in the morning.

    Adult Videos???
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,448
    edited July 1

    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

    It’s also self fulfilling

    As the government looks increasingly one-term - and it does - so its MPs will act accordingly. MPs destined to lose their seats will think “fuck it” and vote as they wish, morally, and with an eye to future careers. Those in marginals will vote to please their constituents not the government

    Even higher loyalists will be thinking “what’s the point in helping Starmer, he’s crap and he’ll be gone soon”

    So chaos is now inevitable. What a shitshow. And what a painful four years, now beckons, for the UK

    I suspect the next government will be seriously Reform or seriously reform. It will have to be - majorly transformative. We cannot go on like this
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,532

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
    As the book of Ecclesiastes says 'There is a time for a gaiety of nations PM and a time for a not gaiety of nations PM'. If this happens I shall spend every moment waiting for the grand Trollopian moment when, Eleanor Bold like, she slaps Trump in the face, followed by winning a 300 majority in a GE.
    But have we not just tried (twice if you include Sunak) a sober, responsible steady Eddie? And have they not both proven wanting?

    Vanity, vanity, all is vanity

    Whilst we're on the subject of Ecclesiastes.
    There's nothing wrong with a dull PM. But nor should we assume that dullness equals competence.

    Particularly after this chump.
    And Sunak.

    And May.

    And some would say Brown.

    We've had a spectacular run of very incompetent 'grown up' PMs.
    But it would be just as hard to prove the opposite, because the non-dull ones haven't really excelled on competence either.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    What brought down Johnson despite his massive majority was sending out ministers to defend the indefensible, only to leave them swinging when he changed the policy. Starmer seems to be copying his modus operandi.

    Is there any one willing to run the "Save Big Donkey" campaign, or will the crown pass to the delightful Ms Rayner? She wouldn't have pushed this bill so incompetently. She is good at politics.

    I favour Wes Streeting. As with any of us of course, I favour him because he appears to match my way of thinking most closely, so I fully accept most Labour supporters probably won't welcome my endorsement.

    I do think Rayner would be better than Sir though. Almost anyone would.
    At top level, complicated politics, I suggest Rayner is still relatively untested. Working your way up inside the Labour Party isn’t the same as trying to run the country.
    As Starmer proves daily. To be fair, I don't think she'd be a less competent leader. And she would add greatly to the gaiety of the nation.
    I agree about gaiety of nations, but feel entirely agnostic as to whether she would be any good. I have a lot of time for her, but wonder if she could truly be the next Attlee, whom, to be honest, she does not much resemble.
    I don't think she'd be much good, but her not very good would be better than Keir Stamer's ever increasing iceberg depths of awfulness. She's a Boris. She's flawed with a few redeeming qualities. Starmer has zero redeeming qualities.
    As the book of Ecclesiastes says 'There is a time for a gaiety of nations PM and a time for a not gaiety of nations PM'. If this happens I shall spend every moment waiting for the grand Trollopian moment when, Eleanor Bold like, she slaps Trump in the face, followed by winning a 300 majority in a GE.
    But have we not just tried (twice if you include Sunak) a sober, responsible steady Eddie? And have they not both proven wanting?

    Vanity, vanity, all is vanity

    Whilst we're on the subject of Ecclesiastes.
    There's nothing wrong with a dull PM. But nor should we assume that dullness equals competence.

    Particularly after this chump.
    And Sunak.

    And May.

    And some would say Brown.

    We've had a spectacular run of very incompetent 'grown up' PMs.
    But it would be just as hard to prove the opposite, because the non-dull ones haven't really excelled on competence either.
    Fair.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,532

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    Pink was the colour of the British Empire.
    Pink was thought a very masculine,bold colour in the Victorian era, ISTR.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,665

    ohnotnow said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.
    Posh people.
    Bless, that's the thinking that makes people think Posh Spice is Posh.
    No, it's the thinking of people who have experienced important and posh folk who have hereditary titles, and Private Secretaries.

    That's OK - you have Executive Assistants - good for you - very egalitarian.
    That was a decent stinging riposte.

    Feudalism continues to trump capitalism in the poshness stakes.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,417
    X
    Robert Peston@Peston·3m
    Here is the scale of the government’s humiliation tonight.

    A week ago Downing St was warning any Labour MP who was thinking of not voting for the welfare reform that they would never get a job on the payroll. As late as Wednesday the Treasury insisted there would be no Show more
    https://x.com/Peston/status/1940146719028658397


    Kevin Maguire@Kevin_Maguire
    Labour welfare rebels are putting country before party by protecting the disabled from UK Government cuts.
    https://x.com/Kevin_Maguire/status/1940104947627893168
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,624
    Leon said:

    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

    It’s also self fulfilling

    As the government looks increasingly one-term - and it does - so its MPs will act accordingly. MPs destined to lose their seats will think “fuck it” and vote as they wish, morally, and with an eye to future careers. Those in marginals will vote to please their constituents not the government

    Even higher loyalists will be thinking “what’s the point in helping Starmer, he’s crap and he’ll be gone soon”

    So chaos is now inevitable. What a shitshow. And what a painful four years, now beckons, for the UK

    I suspect the next government will be seriously Reform or seriously reform. It will have to be - majorly transformative. We cannot go on like this
    It's deeply sad in a way. An era is passing. There is an increasing sense of a long withdrawing melancholy. Social democracy is ending at least for a good long time as, it also seems, is softish one nation high toryism.

    I have no idea what will replace it but I am extremely trepidatious.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    TimS said:

    ohnotnow said:

    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Is this a spoof or true? They did a sort of rebrand recently in pink which elicited some hilarity on PB. I decided on the spot to stick to the 12 year old Micra because I wanted some cred with the gang.
    It’s true. They just stopped making any new cars. Having a rest.
    Is this nornal business practice - for a car company to stop making cars and have a rest?
    Tiring work, making cars.
    I suppose there could be some logic. If your other brand is churning out SUVs and coining it and Jaguar is in seemingly terminal decline, and the whole industry is being upended by EVs, then perhaps it makes sense to pause and reinvent. But you need deep pockets and a lot of confidence.

    I can’t see Jag surviving long term. A bit like SAAB and probably in due course Alfa Romeo - it had its moment.
    Saloons are two thirds dead, except in China. Range Rover already makes SUVs. So as you say what's the point of Jaguar, if it's part of JLR? It can only be something small and high margin. Ten to fifty thousand cars a year maybe.
    Sports cars and cars for 50 something English blokes who have affairs on their wives with their secretaries.
    Having an affair on their wives with their secretary seems little much.
    Who the fuck has secretaries these days?

    It's all executive assistants, heck two out of three of my executive assistants are male.
    Posh people.
    Bless, that's the thinking that makes people think Posh Spice is Posh.
    No, it's the thinking of people who have experienced important and posh folk who have hereditary titles, and Private Secretaries.

    That's OK - you have Executive Assistants - good for you - very egalitarian.
    That was a decent stinging riposte.

    Feudalism continues to trump capitalism in the poshness stakes.
    I don't mean it - it's only to wind TSE up. I have neither secretary nor executive assistant - a shame as I could certainly do with one at times.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821
    Leon said:

    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

    It’s also self fulfilling

    As the government looks increasingly one-term - and it does - so its MPs will act accordingly. MPs destined to lose their seats will think “fuck it” and vote as they wish, morally, and with an eye to future careers. Those in marginals will vote to please their constituents not the government

    Even higher loyalists will be thinking “what’s the point in helping Starmer, he’s crap and he’ll be gone soon”

    So chaos is now inevitable. What a shitshow. And what a painful four years, now beckons, for the UK

    I suspect the next government will be seriously Reform or seriously reform. It will have to be - majorly transformative. We cannot go on like this
    I still think Labour are clear favourites to form or lead the next government.

    Reform's hurdles in the way of government are formidable. Not the least are the Tories determination (unless they pact with them) to do well, which if achieved reduces Reform prospects.

    And, as today's show demonstrates, government is hard. Will enough of the voting public, when it comes to it, think Reform have a front bench to keep the show on the rails? All politics is relative. Labour are awful, but can this disguise the fact that Reform are much worse at politics?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,087
    It's suddenly got much cooler here, so for the first time in a few days I've shut the bedroom window.

    The neighbour's will be happier when I close the curtains... :)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,624
    Massive, if true.


    Ailbhe Rea
    @PronouncedAlva
    ·
    7m
    It was Angela Rayner who pushed for today's major U-turn to be made, when it became clear the govt was going to lose the vote.

    Extraordinary that a govt with a working majority of 165 was on course to lose - and that it only stopped it two and a half hours before the vote
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,624

    Jon Sopel
    @jonsopel
    ·
    2h
    The political ineptitude and mismanagement of this is epic. The whips office, the Downing St operation, and DWP should be hanging heads in shame. And truly disastrous for Keir Starmer and what’s left of his authority


    ===

    Not sure it is right to blame Whips. iirc they have been telling Kendall, Reeves and co for weeks that they will struggle to get this through.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,821

    Leon said:

    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

    It’s also self fulfilling

    As the government looks increasingly one-term - and it does - so its MPs will act accordingly. MPs destined to lose their seats will think “fuck it” and vote as they wish, morally, and with an eye to future careers. Those in marginals will vote to please their constituents not the government

    Even higher loyalists will be thinking “what’s the point in helping Starmer, he’s crap and he’ll be gone soon”

    So chaos is now inevitable. What a shitshow. And what a painful four years, now beckons, for the UK

    I suspect the next government will be seriously Reform or seriously reform. It will have to be - majorly transformative. We cannot go on like this
    It's deeply sad in a way. An era is passing. There is an increasing sense of a long withdrawing melancholy. Social democracy is ending at least for a good long time as, it also seems, is softish one nation high toryism.

    I have no idea what will replace it but I am extremely trepidatious.
    Social democracy is not ending, and shows no sign of doing so. Its ambitions may have to get more modest. Rather than social democracy declining, Reform are rapidly shifting towards it. Social democracy has ruled without change except for tinkering since 1945.

    Only Reform show any sign of being against it. But in fact they won't be.

    Ask a simple question: What would Reform have to do in government to keep the voters of Clacton voting for them?

    And another: Do the voters of Clacton want the basic elements of social democracy kept - welfare state, safety net, pensions, NHS, free education to 18?

    It follows, as night follows day, that whatever they say, Reform will preserve the expensive basics of the social democrat deal.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,512
    Someone must level with the public on taxes and spending. And live to tell the tale...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,076
    Nice to see some people at Wimbledon wearing neckties despite the hot weather. Shows standards haven't entirely slipped.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,050

    Massive, if true.


    Ailbhe Rea
    @PronouncedAlva
    ·
    7m
    It was Angela Rayner who pushed for today's major U-turn to be made, when it became clear the govt was going to lose the vote.

    Extraordinary that a govt with a working majority of 165 was on course to lose - and that it only stopped it two and a half hours before the vote

    She needs to give Starmer the boot.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,938
    edited July 1
    The welfare reform bill doesn't reform welfare. :D

    In related news, Kemi did well again. It suits her giving a longer speech, especially as you can just take an intervention when you need a breather. She has obviously received advice to 'get angry'. It's not really to my taste, I prefer cold scorn, but she does it effectively.

    https://youtu.be/gQweLiaNn30?si=BJJk2l1qOC42X4yD&t=3m22s

    "Thank GOD it was the Conservatives under Covid - Labour would have BANKRUPTED the country" - good knockabout stuff.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,624
    Robert Peston
    @Peston
    Here is the scale of the government’s humiliation tonight.

    A week ago Downing St was warning any Labour MP who was thinking of not voting for the welfare reform that they would never get a job on the payroll. As late as Wednesday the Treasury insisted there would be no backing down. Today Angela Rayner and Liz Kendall were ringing round Labour MPs asking frantically what it would take to secure their votes.

    In the end and at the last moment, the government has announced that there would be zero cuts in PIP for the forecastable future. The rebels got everything they wanted.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,084
    maxh said:

    I'm sure some of you will enjoy this: https://commoncausefoundation.org/to-face-environmental-destruction-the-uk-media-must-help-england-face-its-past/

    "Last week, I attended "Voices from the Amazon: Our Stories, Our Solutions" – an event that brought together Indigenous creatives and activists sharing their experiences with international media. For me, what was clear throughout the event is that much of the UK (specifically English) media, and, indeed, environmental activists' engagement with Indigenous communities around the world continues to be extractive, even when seemingly focussed on 'averting ecological collapse'.

    "Instead of asking Indigenous people what they can teach us, perhaps the role of the media for an English audience is to help it engage with a more fundamental question: What can white Europeans, learn about them/ourselves from our historical commitment to the genocide of Indigenous people, and how might this inform their/our understanding of our role in driving current crises?

    "This isn't about historical guilt – it's about recognising that the same patterns of domination that drove colonialism continue to fuel environmental destruction today. Until we're willing to face this honestly, our responses to climate destruction (and the many interconnected crises, including global impoverishment of peoples, inequality, genocide, white supremacy, etc) will remain superficial."

    I am stuck in a train with loud drunks. The train is stopped and cannot proceed due to interference on the line and staff out of position. I will arrive at my digs over a hour late. I really do not feel the urge to atone for the non-existent crimes of my extremely poor grandparents and great-grandparents who died young whist various upper-class twats thought it would be a good idea to swap black people for cotton so they could wipe their arses with silk in their 19th century follies whilst impregnating the scullery maid and taking laudanum.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,985

    Massive, if true.


    Ailbhe Rea
    @PronouncedAlva
    ·
    7m
    It was Angela Rayner who pushed for today's major U-turn to be made, when it became clear the govt was going to lose the vote.

    Extraordinary that a govt with a working majority of 165 was on course to lose - and that it only stopped it two and a half hours before the vote

    Like I said. Rayner is good at politics.

    Remember that to win the leadership you need to understand and have the support of backbenchers in your own party. Rayner has that, Streeting does not. He is Billy Nomates.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,821

    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

    I think that's a huge conclusion to reach after barely a year in Government. To an extent, he's had Blair's first year but without the economic legacy. Blair had problems with welfare reform in his first year - he also had problems with "gifts" from outsiders but lessons were learned and presentation was improved and he had in Hague and the Tories an awful Opposition who, apart from one brief moment during the 2000 fuel crisis, never posed a serious challenge.

    Starmer too has a divided opposition and Reform simply offer a different kind of "change" which is arguably equally incoherent and equally likely to fail.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,076
    "Chancellor left in 'impossible situation' after PM survives welfare rebellion"

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-starmer-assisted-dying-trump-israel-iran-labour-12593360
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,724
    edited July 1
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Ahahahaha

    Thanks for cheering me up

    That is surely the End of Wokeness. That’s it. Right there

    No one wants this shit any more and now it is actively and powerfully hated. I bet my fellow holidaymakers in the Rhodopes thoroughly approve of the new Jaguar branding
    They won't approve of the new branding but they will disapprove of the people who don't like it, whisper to each other about those awful people and their bigoted views.

    This is the story of the games industry, these same types had very loud and public campaigns against "gamers" so the industry changed their output to match the new modern audience demands but it turns out they don't actually play games anyway so the big games publishers are all in trouble after seeing a number of high profile flops while smaller developers ignored it all and continued to make games with sexy female leads like Lara Croft of old and they're seeing huge success. Concord is probably going to be the biggest monetary flop in all media formats of all time for the next decade at least, $400m pissed away with zero revenue.
    Once again, this thesis is rubbish. Concord failed because 1) it was shit 2) it was a non-free game trying to enter a market already crowded with free options and 3) it had no marketing, probably because Sony realised it was going to fail due to 1 & 2. The supposed wokeness barely registers.

    & a counter-example to your thesis: Baldurs Gate 3 was one of the biggest selling games of 2024 & is 1) incredibly woke and 2) incredibly successful. OK, you might argue that came out in 2023: Helldivers 2 came out in 2024 & relentlessly takes the piss out of fascists & was very, very successful.

    “Wokeness” can’t save a bad game. Nor will it sink a good one. Good games can be woke or not, as they choose. It’s fine. Bolting on “woke” because you think it will save a bad game is probably never going to work, but that‘s because it’s a bad game & gamers already have a ton of options, both “woke” & not.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,532
    edited July 1
    Phil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://www.financialexpress.com/business/brandwagon-how-jaguars-rebranding-gamble-triggered-a-98-collapse-in-sales-3899142/

    "For decades, Jaguar stood for a blend of British engineering, performance, and luxury, an identity that helped the brand build loyalty among customers who valued refinement and heritage. But in its attempt to reinvent itself for a new era, Jaguar now finds itself facing one of the most severe sales declines seen in the European automotive market. In April 2025, the company registered just 49 vehicles in Europe, a 97.5% drop from 1,961 units sold during the same month the previous year."

    Have we done this yet?

    I'm sure there were some other factors but this is absolutely hilarious. Go woke...

    Ahahahaha

    Thanks for cheering me up

    That is surely the End of Wokeness. That’s it. Right there

    No one wants this shit any more and now it is actively and powerfully hated. I bet my fellow holidaymakers in the Rhodopes thoroughly approve of the new Jaguar branding
    They won't approve of the new branding but they will disapprove of the people who don't like it, whisper to each other about those awful people and their bigoted views.

    This is the story of the games industry, these same types had very loud and public campaigns against "gamers" so the industry changed their output to match the new modern audience demands but it turns out they don't actually play games anyway so the big games publishers are all in trouble after seeing a number of high profile flops while smaller developers ignored it all and continued to make games with sexy female leads like Lara Croft of old and they're seeing huge success. Concord is probably going to be the biggest monetary flop in all media formats of all time for the next decade at least, $400m pissed away with zero revenue.
    Once again, this thesis is rubbish. Concord failed because 1) it was shit 2) it was a non-free game trying to enter a market already crowded with free options and 3) it had no marketing, probably because Sony realised it was going to fail due to 1 & 2. The supposed wokeness barely registers.

    & a counter-example to your thesis: Baldurs Gate 3 was one of the biggest selling games of 2024 & is 1) incredibly woke and 2) incredibly successful. OK, you might argue that came out in 2023: Helldivers 2 came out in 2024 & relentlessly takes the piss out of fascists & was very, very successful.

    “Wokeness” can’t save a bad game. Nor will it sink a good one. Good games can be woke or not, as they choose. It’s fine. Bolting on “woke” because you think it will save a bad game is probably never going to work, but that‘s because it’s a bad game & gamers already have a ton of options, both “woke” & not.
    I know nothing of gaming - but I don't think you're miles apart.

    A game - or film, or TV programme - is good or bad depending on how good or bad it is.
    But frustratingly often, those in charge of making it appear to consider quality a secondary matter to making it woke.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,140
    @zohrankmamdani.bsky.social‬

    My statement on Donald Trump's threat to deport me and his praise for Eric Adams, who the President "helped out" of legal accountability.

    https://bsky.app/profile/zohrankmamdani.bsky.social/post/3lswltxtm7223
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,448
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

    It’s also self fulfilling

    As the government looks increasingly one-term - and it does - so its MPs will act accordingly. MPs destined to lose their seats will think “fuck it” and vote as they wish, morally, and with an eye to future careers. Those in marginals will vote to please their constituents not the government

    Even higher loyalists will be thinking “what’s the point in helping Starmer, he’s crap and he’ll be gone soon”

    So chaos is now inevitable. What a shitshow. And what a painful four years, now beckons, for the UK

    I suspect the next government will be seriously Reform or seriously reform. It will have to be - majorly transformative. We cannot go on like this
    I still think Labour are clear favourites to form or lead the next government.

    Reform's hurdles in the way of government are formidable. Not the least are the Tories determination (unless they pact with them) to do well, which if achieved reduces Reform prospects.

    And, as today's show demonstrates, government is hard. Will enough of the voting public, when it comes to it, think Reform have a front bench to keep the show on the rails? All politics is relative. Labour are awful, but can this disguise the fact that Reform are much worse at politics?
    Oh god, shut up
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,993
    Israeli settlers on West Bank attack IDF: https://youtu.be/yb8mNsg4v7k

    Maybe the settlers watched Glastonbury?

    Oh, and Bibi's govt is trying to cancel his trial and impeach Arab MPs.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,076
    edited July 1
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

    It’s also self fulfilling

    As the government looks increasingly one-term - and it does - so its MPs will act accordingly. MPs destined to lose their seats will think “fuck it” and vote as they wish, morally, and with an eye to future careers. Those in marginals will vote to please their constituents not the government

    Even higher loyalists will be thinking “what’s the point in helping Starmer, he’s crap and he’ll be gone soon”

    So chaos is now inevitable. What a shitshow. And what a painful four years, now beckons, for the UK

    I suspect the next government will be seriously Reform or seriously reform. It will have to be - majorly transformative. We cannot go on like this
    I still think Labour are clear favourites to form or lead the next government.

    Reform's hurdles in the way of government are formidable. Not the least are the Tories determination (unless they pact with them) to do well, which if achieved reduces Reform prospects.

    And, as today's show demonstrates, government is hard. Will enough of the voting public, when it comes to it, think Reform have a front bench to keep the show on the rails? All politics is relative. Labour are awful, but can this disguise the fact that Reform are much worse at politics?
    You keep telling us again and again that Labour are favourites to form or lead the next government. We get the message.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,448
    edited July 1
    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    One of the lessons of today is that campaigning on the vacuous term 'change' might win an election when the existing government is exhausted and shite but it leads to problems if no one inside the tent knows or agrees what the change is supposed to be.

    As Lavery said today - people voted Lab in for "change" not for a "change for the worse".

    But change could equally be seen as sorting out the deficit situation not helping the mildly disabled.

    Starmer doesn't do the "vision thing" nor can he tell a nation a story of where they are going. So arguments over change will rage.

    It really is a stunning mess.

    One term.

    It’s also self fulfilling

    As the government looks increasingly one-term - and it does - so its MPs will act accordingly. MPs destined to lose their seats will think “fuck it” and vote as they wish, morally, and with an eye to future careers. Those in marginals will vote to please their constituents not the government

    Even higher loyalists will be thinking “what’s the point in helping Starmer, he’s crap and he’ll be gone soon”

    So chaos is now inevitable. What a shitshow. And what a painful four years, now beckons, for the UK

    I suspect the next government will be seriously Reform or seriously reform. It will have to be - majorly transformative. We cannot go on like this
    I still think Labour are clear favourites to form or lead the next government.

    Reform's hurdles in the way of government are formidable. Not the least are the Tories determination (unless they pact with them) to do well, which if achieved reduces Reform prospects.

    And, as today's show demonstrates, government is hard. Will enough of the voting public, when it comes to it, think Reform have a front bench to keep the show on the rails? All politics is relative. Labour are awful, but can this disguise the fact that Reform are much worse at politics?
    You keep telling us again and again that Labour are favourites to form or lead the next government is because you're a Labour supporter. We get the message.
    Yes, and also terrified of a Reform victory. It’s become a long and tedious bleating
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,985
    Scott_xP said:

    @zohrankmamdani.bsky.social‬

    My statement on Donald Trump's threat to deport me and his praise for Eric Adams, who the President "helped out" of legal accountability.

    https://bsky.app/profile/zohrankmamdani.bsky.social/post/3lswltxtm7223

    Mamdani won by getting the young to vote. Labour should watch and learn.

    https://bsky.app/profile/upshot.nytimes.com/post/3lsqy7ahius2c
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