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Robert Jenrick’s secret weapon: being a lawyer as the country loves lawyers – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,544
edited June 28 in General
Robert Jenrick’s secret weapon: being a lawyer as the country loves lawyers – politicalbetting.com

I don’t think it is any coincidence that from 1945 onwards the three best leaders of the opposition were lawyers, whilst the fourth, The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton is now practically a lawyer following the news that he is in talks with law firm DLA Piper to go work for them.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,835
    First
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,705
    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,092
    "go work for them"

    Oh dear, oh dear.

    Go and work for them.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,512

    "go work for them"

    Oh dear, oh dear.

    Go and work for them.

    Corrected it just for you.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,092

    "go work for them"

    Oh dear, oh dear.

    Go and work for them.

    Corrected it just for you.
    Thank you!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,264
    It could have been worse I suppose.

    Jenrick could have been an estate agent.

    Or a career SPAD.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,264
    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,997
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
    That would be an accountant, surely?
    Did someone say all accountants are great?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,835

    It could have been worse I suppose.

    Jenrick could have been an estate agent.

    Or a career SPAD.

    He’s a Tory MP. The only way is up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,027

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
    That would be an accountant, surely?
    Did someone say all accountants are great?
    Well, they tend to be a good addition to lawyers.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,160
    I’m sure Dave has certainly talked to a lot of lawyers for ‘reasons’. I daresay some of it rubbed off on him.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,663
    On topic, number of seats gained by an LotO is a meaningless metric, as elections are basically a referendum on the government's performance.

    That's how an incompetent mediocrity with no charisma like Starmer can beat a once in a lifetime political genius like Blair.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,351
    Morning PB.

    Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha and Conficius ofcourse also all trained as lawyers, as we all know. Legal practice is connected to spiritual enlightenment.
  • AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Whereas, apparently, having a degree in Law as Kemi Badenoch does, does not.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,394
    Fishing said:

    On topic, number of seats gained by an LotO is a meaningless metric, as elections are basically a referendum on the government's performance.

    That's how an incompetent mediocrity with no charisma like Starmer can beat a once in a lifetime political genius like Blair.

    Isn't it a combination of the two that drives the end result. Starmer mainly won because the Tories had been dire, but also because he was bland and not obviously hard left enough for the stupidest third of the country to be willing to vote for him.

    Blair won more because he was a breath of fresh air, as well as the Tories being fairly useless.

    Effectively it's the gap between the perception of both parties that determines the outcome.

    FPTP leverages this - you don't have to have a particularly large gap to get a very disproportionate result.

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,351
    Tony Blair also ofcourse a member of the spiritually enlightened, having been both a lawyer and a heavy rock singer.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,835

    Morning PB.

    Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha and Conficius ofcourse also all trained as lawyers, as we all know. Legal practice is connected to spiritual enlightenment.

    So did Robespierre, Nixon, and Guiliani.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,716

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
    That would be an accountant, surely?
    Did someone say all accountants are great?
    Maybe someone did.
    Somewhere, once.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,351
    The founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, trained as an accountant.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,298
    Peak Glastonbury here


  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,414
    edited June 28
    @rcs1000 am seeing an old certificate for *. on www – expired Monday 3 March 2025 at 23:59:59

    Next attempt redirects to www1 so presumably this time hits correct certificate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,716

    The founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, trained as an accountant.

    I didn't know that. But he was also a poet, which probably makes him unusual in the profession ?

    I'm a fan of Sikh teachings.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,351
    To be clear, Guru Nanak's father was an accountant, and he worked with him as an accountant for a short while before travelling off for thousands of miles and founding Sikhism.

    This is actually true
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,351
    Nigelb said:

    The founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, trained as an accountant.

    I didn't know that. But he was also a poet, which probably makes him unusual in the profession ?

    I'm a fan of Sikh teachings.
    Yes, he seems to have dabbled in a lot of areas. A lot of time also spent debating with other religions, and travelling a lot. An open-minded chap.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,847
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
    That would be an accountant, surely?
    Did someone say all accountants are great?
    Maybe someone did.
    Somewhere, once.
    Even I wouldn't go that far.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,716
    This seemed a bit odd.

    Pro-Palestinian activists reportedly destroy military equipment intended for Ukraine
    https://kyivindependent.com/pro-palestinian-activists-destroy-ukrainian-aid-worth-1-million-confusing-it-with-israeli-06-2025/

    But makes a lot more sense in the light of this.
    https://x.com/HarcourtYthan/status/1938511739059888527
    ..Palestine action runs on donations, its largest donor and supporter, the man that pays their legal fees and organises actions, is a man called James "fergie" Chambers, wealthy son of the American Cox family.

    Chambers is a big fan of Putin's invasion.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergie_Chambers
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,414
    Hundreds of NHS quangos to be scrapped
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w4xl8gyyqo
  • isamisam Posts: 42,089
    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,084
    Nigelb said:

    This seemed a bit odd.

    Pro-Palestinian activists reportedly destroy military equipment intended for Ukraine
    https://kyivindependent.com/pro-palestinian-activists-destroy-ukrainian-aid-worth-1-million-confusing-it-with-israeli-06-2025/

    But makes a lot more sense in the light of this.
    https://x.com/HarcourtYthan/status/1938511739059888527
    ..Palestine action runs on donations, its largest donor and supporter, the man that pays their legal fees and organises actions, is a man called James "fergie" Chambers, wealthy son of the American Cox family.

    Chambers is a big fan of Putin's invasion.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergie_Chambers

    The mind boggles at that man’s mindset!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,745
    edited June 28

    The founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, trained as an accountant.

    Wallace Stevens was an insurance executive. Charles Ives was an actuary.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,661
    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,778
    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,329

    Hundreds of NHS quangos to be scrapped
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w4xl8gyyqo

    The NHS has both too much and too little management.

    Time and again, insiders speak of initiatives and changes that vanish into the maw of committees, never to be seen again.

    Time and again, insiders speak of not having regular provision of equipment, trading and staff - of frontline staff doing managerial work. Because there are too few real managers.

    If the hundreds of quangos (above) are abolished, the problem will be the tendency for the processes and functions they represent being aggregated into other parts of the NHS.

    A recurring joke in Yes Minister is that such “cuts” end up with higher headcounts in the end.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,745

    To be clear, Guru Nanak's father was an accountant, and he worked with him as an accountant for a short while before travelling off for thousands of miles and founding Sikhism.

    This is actually true

    Jesus would run you up a garden shed with his father (don't ask) before turning to amending Moses's human rights law, and actually doing it rather well.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,745
    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    It's quite a puzzle. Starmer's lack of leadership touch and failures would have lost him everyone normally, but all politics is relative. About 60-65% of voters have nowhere else to go that could actually do better or help the cause of grown up politics, except those in the 100 or so seats where the LDs are the contender. So for the moment Starmer and Labour are the only grown up, non nationalist centrist option in about 530 seats.

    It may be over for Starmer (though I am not sure) but it certainly is not all over for Labour.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,329

    Nigelb said:

    This seemed a bit odd.

    Pro-Palestinian activists reportedly destroy military equipment intended for Ukraine
    https://kyivindependent.com/pro-palestinian-activists-destroy-ukrainian-aid-worth-1-million-confusing-it-with-israeli-06-2025/

    But makes a lot more sense in the light of this.
    https://x.com/HarcourtYthan/status/1938511739059888527
    ..Palestine action runs on donations, its largest donor and supporter, the man that pays their legal fees and organises actions, is a man called James "fergie" Chambers, wealthy son of the American Cox family.

    Chambers is a big fan of Putin's invasion.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergie_Chambers

    The mind boggles at that man’s mindset!
    Death To The West is an old, old song.

    Tankies love to tank.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,463
    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,786
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Supported the correct political party.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,329
    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Supported the correct political party.
    Look at the current Labour bench. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King…
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,745
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    The relevant skills have overlaps but are not identical. The degree of untruthfulness, non accountability and special pleading in politics would leave the most hardened of the criminal bar shocked to the core.

    So, for example Starmer has had to give way on PIP and all that. SFAICS not one of his critics have taken the trouble to explain with clarity how the government should keep within their fiscal rules - which are expansive enough already - while expanding the welfare budget as the critics want. They don't care, and because they are back benchers don't need to care. They don't even get asked by the journalists how to square the fiscal circle. Some of them even pretend to believe in MMT.

    Anywhere else in the real world the critics would have been required to fully account for their case, or resign, or be sacked, or shut up.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,414
    edited June 28
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Did Starmer “rise so far in the legal profession” as a lawyer or is running the CPS more of an administrative or managerial role? Was he known as one of the great advocates of our time, or acknowledged by his peers as a brilliant legal strategist?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,189
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
    That would be an accountant, surely?
    Is there a "Institute of Dupes" that could accept someone who was deployed to lobby an insurer to continue to underwrite bonds for a ponzi scheme?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,084
    stodge said:

    algarkirk said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    It's quite a puzzle. Starmer's lack of leadership touch and failures would have lost him everyone normally, but all politics is relative. About 60-65% of voters have nowhere else to go that could actually do better or help the cause of grown up politics, except those in the 100 or so seats where the LDs are the contender. So for the moment Starmer and Labour are the only grown up, non nationalist centrist option in about 530 seats.

    It may be over for Starmer (though I am not sure) but it certainly is not all over for Labour.
    Of course it isn't and indeed the current situation is a million miles away from where Labour were in the mid-70s where their majority was two or three and the problems were every bit as bad if not worse.

    Neither the Conservatives (due to their myriad failures from 2010-24 which were either self-indulgence (the EU) or inertia (social care reform) or Reform, whose biggest asset and problem is Farage, offer anything remotely coherent in terms of a policy response on immigration, the economy, social care or a host of other issues.

    Governing ain't easy and it was never going to be easy whoever won last July. The party was over, the bill was on the table and we had to pay up. I do think closing off options to raise income tax and VAT was a mistake by Starmer and Reeves but the shadow of 1992 is long.

    If you want Labour to succeed, your best friends are time and patience. The next election will, as they often are, be a war of statistics vs perceptions. Labour will wheel out all manner of statistics about how things have improved on their watch and the Opposition will wheel out their statistics and perceptions to try to prove they haven't.

    MY biggest concern is the 40% or so who will probably not vote again - democracy is in trouble if the best we can manage is 60% turnout - I'm not after 90% but we should we looking at 75% turnout. Reform could win as loveless a landslide as Labour on an even lower share of the vote - it wouldn't be called "loveless" of course by the Express or the Mail but we know that's what it would be.

    The problem of disengagement with politics and the political process is one of the biggest we face and it won't be solved by changes to electoral system (though they may help) but a thorough ground-up re-engagement with people and understanding what it is they want and expect from all levels of Government.

    Another excellent post from Mr S; thanks. I'm not sure I'd agree that the problems were greater in the mid 70's; the political ones were, agreed, but not those in the world around.
    I do agree though that a 60%, or even less, turnout is a concern. I wonder if someone could investigate whether non-voters last time see themselves as more or less likely to vote next.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,329
    Dopermean said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
    That would be an accountant, surely?
    Is there a "Institute of Dupes" that could accept someone who was deployed to lobby an insurer to continue to underwrite bonds for a ponzi scheme?
    In tax schemes, you get a high end tax lawyer to proffer an opinion that your scheme is awesome. And completely legal.

    Lawyer gets paid well for the opinion.

    When HMRC rules against the schemes and fines everyone taking part, there is no recourse against the lawyer.

    There are stories of lawyers who have a 100% miss rate on such…
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 917

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Did Starmer “rise so far in the legal profession” as a lawyer or is running the CPS more of an administrative or managerial role? Was he known as one of the great advocates of our time, or acknowledged by his peers as a brilliant legal strategist?
    George Osborne and Ed Balls interviewed, briefly, a former colleague who said he was pretty shit hot. I seem to recall Leon also spoke to a judge who said he was a really good lawyer too.

    I think the difference is that arguments in court can be quite structured and has quite strict rules, which further enforces which arguments are made and how they are made. Politics, by contrast, has fewer rules and they're possibly a lot more contentious. I would assume your opposite number in court can't get up to address the judge and accuse you of covering up Jimmy Saville's abuse, for instance.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,089
    edited June 28
    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,856

    Hundreds of NHS quangos to be scrapped
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w4xl8gyyqo

    I applaud these changes.

    I've said similar things very often (about reviews and hospital funding being linked to performance). These (on the face of it) are serious and positive changes and Labour should be commended.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,856

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    The problem comes with a certain type of lawyer. Who believes that The Law is the Goal and The All.

    Hence you get lawyers in management who prevent non-lawyers being promoted - because “specialists might get bogged down in the details”

    Many years ago, when I worked in an oil company, I used to attend lots of meeting and conferences. I was curious about the workings of the company.

    At one meeting, someone gave a proud presentation of how he had cut costs on a new oil field. I noticed that he had substituted regular steel for the well heads, rather than a special steel (pretty much stainless).

    I put my hand up, and being stupid, asked.

    Yup - he hadn’t checked. The reason for the original special spec was that the field had lots of water in the oil, and the oil came out under great pressure and very hot. Regular steel gets eaten by that at a crazy rate. Mm per hour can happen.

    If that had gone ahead, multiple blowouts. Probably deaths.

    My career survived (my manger protected me quite well, in those days). What was interesting was the reaction of all those around the clown - “he couldn’t be expected to know technical stuff - that’s not his job”.

    Everyone in that meeting (apart from me) was a lawyer or accountant.
    Steeling the limelight there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361
    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,778
    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    Yes and to be fair I can't recall you being sympathetic to ANY Labour leader of recent times so at least you're consistent.

    I do agree there's a huge volatility out there which there wasn't 30-40 years ago and that in itself has triggered the re-alignment we've seen in recent times. Other countries have had elections which have shattered the status quo but a new equilibrium has established over time and the same will happen here I suspect.

    Even if Labour had won nearer 40% last year and won an even bigger landslide, I doubt it would have made any difference. Someone argued the other day landslides make for weak governments - not sure that's true - but the opportunity to do the unpopular and difficult things unencumbered by Parliamentary issues, often produces unpopularity - Conservative Governments were historically hugely unpopular mid term but some were able to recover because people realised what they did was, if not right, then necessary.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Did Starmer “rise so far in the legal profession” as a lawyer or is running the CPS more of an administrative or managerial role? Was he known as one of the great advocates of our time, or acknowledged by his peers as a brilliant legal strategist?
    Some insights here

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-and-the-evil-of-banality/
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,778

    stodge said:

    algarkirk said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    It's quite a puzzle. Starmer's lack of leadership touch and failures would have lost him everyone normally, but all politics is relative. About 60-65% of voters have nowhere else to go that could actually do better or help the cause of grown up politics, except those in the 100 or so seats where the LDs are the contender. So for the moment Starmer and Labour are the only grown up, non nationalist centrist option in about 530 seats.

    It may be over for Starmer (though I am not sure) but it certainly is not all over for Labour.
    Of course it isn't and indeed the current situation is a million miles away from where Labour were in the mid-70s where their majority was two or three and the problems were every bit as bad if not worse.

    Neither the Conservatives (due to their myriad failures from 2010-24 which were either self-indulgence (the EU) or inertia (social care reform) or Reform, whose biggest asset and problem is Farage, offer anything remotely coherent in terms of a policy response on immigration, the economy, social care or a host of other issues.

    Governing ain't easy and it was never going to be easy whoever won last July. The party was over, the bill was on the table and we had to pay up. I do think closing off options to raise income tax and VAT was a mistake by Starmer and Reeves but the shadow of 1992 is long.

    If you want Labour to succeed, your best friends are time and patience. The next election will, as they often are, be a war of statistics vs perceptions. Labour will wheel out all manner of statistics about how things have improved on their watch and the Opposition will wheel out their statistics and perceptions to try to prove they haven't.

    MY biggest concern is the 40% or so who will probably not vote again - democracy is in trouble if the best we can manage is 60% turnout - I'm not after 90% but we should we looking at 75% turnout. Reform could win as loveless a landslide as Labour on an even lower share of the vote - it wouldn't be called "loveless" of course by the Express or the Mail but we know that's what it would be.

    The problem of disengagement with politics and the political process is one of the biggest we face and it won't be solved by changes to electoral system (though they may help) but a thorough ground-up re-engagement with people and understanding what it is they want and expect from all levels of Government.

    Another excellent post from Mr S; thanks. I'm not sure I'd agree that the problems were greater in the mid 70's; the political ones were, agreed, but not those in the world around.
    I do agree though that a 60%, or even less, turnout is a concern. I wonder if someone could investigate whether non-voters last time see themselves as more or less likely to vote next.
    Current polling evidence suggests we're looking at 60-65% turnout next time. Labour supporters are currently and not surprisingly less enthused to vote than supporters of other parties - that may change nearer the actual election.

    I had hoped somebody would have done some research on 2024 non-voters to find out a) why they didn't vote and b) how they would have voted if forced. I suspect there were both Labour and Conservative supporters who abstained last year. The Conservatives might turn out next time but with a third of the 2024 Tory vote having gone to Reform, they'll need to to keep the Conservative vote share above 20%.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,919
    Taz said:

    Peak Glastonbury here


    Peak Glasto would be having sex and/or vomiting on said bench.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,786
    Unpopular said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Did Starmer “rise so far in the legal profession” as a lawyer or is running the CPS more of an administrative or managerial role? Was he known as one of the great advocates of our time, or acknowledged by his peers as a brilliant legal strategist?
    George Osborne and Ed Balls interviewed, briefly, a former colleague who said he was pretty shit hot. I seem to recall Leon also spoke to a judge who said he was a really good lawyer too.

    I think the difference is that arguments in court can be quite structured and has quite strict rules, which further enforces which arguments are made and how they are made. Politics, by contrast, has fewer rules and they're possibly a lot more contentious. I would assume your opposite number in court can't get up to address the judge and accuse you of covering up Jimmy Saville's abuse, for instance.
    Obviously, those running the legal system are doing so on a budget, but you do what you can with what you're given.

    Politics is about deciding how much to take off people and give to others. That's a completely different world.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,329
    Unpopular said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Did Starmer “rise so far in the legal profession” as a lawyer or is running the CPS more of an administrative or managerial role? Was he known as one of the great advocates of our time, or acknowledged by his peers as a brilliant legal strategist?
    George Osborne and Ed Balls interviewed, briefly, a former colleague who said he was pretty shit hot. I seem to recall Leon also spoke to a judge who said he was a really good lawyer too.

    I think the difference is that arguments in court can be quite structured and has quite strict rules, which further enforces which arguments are made and how they are made. Politics, by contrast, has fewer rules and they're possibly a lot more contentious. I would assume your opposite number in court can't get up to address the judge and accuse you of covering up Jimmy Saville's abuse, for instance.
    The law (and legal system) is a rules engine.

    A linear one.

    Most of the world around us (including us) is non-linear.

    Which is why Reality disrespects The Law so often.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,883
    Good morning

    Starmer standing in front of a lecturn at Wales Labour conference in Llandudno telling us all in Wales how wonderful labour in Wales are then attacking Farage, Plaid and the conservatives

    Enough Starmer, we have suffered a Welsh government for decades and Wales will speak next May and send Wales Labour packing
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,008
    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,329

    Taz said:

    Peak Glastonbury here


    Peak Glasto would be having sex and/or vomiting on said bench.
    Why is it always Free Palestine.

    Surely, the actual Palestinians don’t want it taken away without payment?
  • Dopermean said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
    That would be an accountant, surely?
    Is there a "Institute of Dupes" that could accept someone who was deployed to lobby an insurer to continue to underwrite bonds for a ponzi scheme?
    In tax schemes, you get a high end tax lawyer to proffer an opinion that your scheme is awesome. And completely legal.

    Lawyer gets paid well for the opinion.

    When HMRC rules against the schemes and fines everyone taking part, there is no recourse against the lawyer.

    There are stories of lawyers who have a 100% miss rate on such…
    I've sat in front of QCs charging £10k for a meeting, where they tell my client what he wants to hear, which is the opposite of what they charged £10k to tell a business rival who wanted to hear that opposite.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
    This is not actually true

    C4’s Dispatches about Farage by Fraser Nelson had a Survation poll where Farage topped the list as preferred PM

    No one scored highly. But Farage scored highest
  • isamisam Posts: 42,089
    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    Yes and to be fair I can't recall you being sympathetic to ANY Labour leader of recent times so at least you're consistent.

    I do agree there's a huge volatility out there which there wasn't 30-40 years ago and that in itself has triggered the re-alignment we've seen in recent times. Other countries have had elections which have shattered the status quo but a new equilibrium has established over time and the same will happen here I suspect.

    Even if Labour had won nearer 40% last year and won an even bigger landslide, I doubt it would have made any difference. Someone argued the other day landslides make for weak governments - not sure that's true - but the opportunity to do the unpopular and difficult things unencumbered by Parliamentary issues, often produces unpopularity - Conservative Governments were historically hugely unpopular mid term but some were able to recover because people realised what they did was, if not right, then necessary.
    I voted for Brown, and supported EdM for a while. Even Jezza had his good points, I quite like him
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,087
    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,087
    edited June 28

    Hundreds of NHS quangos to be scrapped
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w4xl8gyyqo

    The NHS has both too much and too little management.

    Time and again, insiders speak of initiatives and changes that vanish into the maw of committees, never to be seen again.

    Time and again, insiders speak of not having regular provision of equipment, trading and staff - of frontline staff doing managerial work. Because there are too few real managers.

    If the hundreds of quangos (above) are abolished, the problem will be the tendency for the processes and functions they represent being aggregated into other parts of the NHS.

    A recurring joke in Yes Minister is that such “cuts” end up with higher headcounts in the end.
    Pay by ratings...I am not sure about this at all. Most people only experience the same hospital and have very limited exposure to it, so it is very difficult to really judge.

    It was only after my father was very ill for a number of years and using a number of different NHS and private hospitals that I started to get a much better feel what was staff working hard but a tricky case / actually took a long time, and when the staff were slacking it off / being obstructive.

    It is a bit like the uni satisfaction scores. Kids on the whole aren't experiencing a wide range of different universities, so have no actual idea what is good teaching, good facilities, etc.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,160
    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    Shot them or bombed them?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361
    The general civility of most Brits makes life much more bearable in times of difficulty

    Despite all our many many problems the Brits remain notably polite and quietly kind. Perhaps more than any other nation bar the Japanese - but their politeness is pathological and tinged with suicidality
  • Lionel Hutz is also a lawyer. I'd trust him more than I'd ever trust "Lord" Cameron.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,087
    edited June 28
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Normally when overbooked they ask for volunteers and then it is a game of who will take the bribe. Nobody took the request and you just got bumped off?

    When I was younger and Mrs U was starting out working out in the US, I was regularly going out there and was I forever volunteering to be bumped and taking the freebies. I am sure there was plenty of complaints about the scruffy student yobbo in business class.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,324
    Certainly in terms of Labour leaders the three best leaders in terms of seats gained at a general election were lawyers, Attlee, Blair and Starmer. In terms of Conservative leaders the picture is more mixed with Cameron and Heath PPE graduates and Churchill an amateur historian, soldier and journalist.

    Chemist turned lawyer Thatcher is only fourth on general election seats gained despite her three
    wins. The last lawyer to lead the Conservatives, Howard, lost in 2005. Jenrick was a historian but did a law conversion course before becoming a solicitor and Reform leader Farage was a stockbroker
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,008
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
    This is not actually true

    C4’s Dispatches about Farage by Fraser Nelson had a Survation poll where Farage topped the list as preferred PM

    No one scored highly. But Farage scored highest
    That's why I said head-to-head.

    Reform and Farage do have the biggest single slice of the electoral pie right now. But they are the second choice of very few. See the polling by YouGov;

    Labour may be in a lacklustre second place in the voting intention polls, and suffering from low approval ratings, but when the public are offered the choice of Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage as prime minister, the incumbent holds a commanding lead over the challenger by 44% to 29%.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52251-who-would-be-the-best-prime-minister-may-2025

    Without a decent wedge of "I don't like X, but I want to stop Y" votes, Reform are currently on "not enough". FPTP has always been a mixture of positive and negative votes, and having five parties turns that effect up to 11.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Normally when overbooked they ask for volunteers and then it is a game of who will take the bribe. Nobody took the request and you just got bumped off?
    I was the only one bumped - right at the end. They didn’t realise they had to bump me until they looked at the screen with unhappy surprise and then went into a huddle

    Luckily I am on 0.5mg Xanax and 200mg Slow Release Tramadol so I smiled benignly at the caprices of life, with only a tiny hint of disappointment in their performance. They were so gratified by my stoical understanding they then went into compensation overdrive
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,087
    edited June 28
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Normally when overbooked they ask for volunteers and then it is a game of who will take the bribe. Nobody took the request and you just got bumped off?
    I was the only one bumped - right at the end. They didn’t realise they had to bump me until they looked at the screen with unhappy surprise and then went into a huddle

    Luckily I am on 0.5mg Xanax and 200mg Slow Release Tramadol so I smiled benignly at the caprices of life, with only a tiny hint of disappointment in their performance. They were so gratified by my stoical understanding they then went into compensation overdrive
    Take them to the cleaners....lay it on thick with it my job, this completely messes up my itinerary, etc...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,021
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Did Starmer “rise so far in the legal profession” as a lawyer or is running the CPS more of an administrative or managerial role? Was he known as one of the great advocates of our time, or acknowledged by his peers as a brilliant legal strategist?
    Some insights here

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-and-the-evil-of-banality/
    "...This then, is the problem of Starmer’s banality. He is, to use the dictionary.com definition of banal: ‘devoid of freshness or originality; hackneyed; trite.’ This means he will have no ideas what to do about our problems, he will just mumble meaningless buzz-words, for five long years. Even worse, his premiership might fulfil the Collins Dictionary definition of banal, something ‘so ordinary that it is not at all effective.’ He won’t even be effective..."

    Sean Thomas, 28 August 2024. Ouch.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 873
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lawyers, particularly court lawyers, have a lot of relevant skills for politics. They are trained to construct an argument and defend it from criticism. They learn how to speak in public. The better ones learn how to be persuasive and to think on their feet. They learn how to analyse a subject and pick out the relevant facts.

    But none of this can make up for the inevitability that at least some of our number are just shits. Jenrick being a case in point.

    How did Starmer rise so far in the legal profession, then?
    Possibly also a reflection of the lack of competitiveness of public sector pay * - more talented lawyers were earning more elsewhere?

    Other DPPs hit the headlines for the wrong reasons, Starmer avoided that so was probably better then average.

    * or ability to charge rip-off fees in the commercial sector
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,463
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
    This is not actually true

    C4’s Dispatches about Farage by Fraser Nelson had a Survation poll where Farage topped the list as preferred PM

    No one scored highly. But Farage scored highest
    It's like pick an STD: you have to choose one, but do you go for herpes? Syphilis?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
    This is not actually true

    C4’s Dispatches about Farage by Fraser Nelson had a Survation poll where Farage topped the list as preferred PM

    No one scored highly. But Farage scored highest
    That's why I said head-to-head.

    Reform and Farage do have the biggest single slice of the electoral pie right now. But they are the second choice of very few. See the polling by YouGov;

    Labour may be in a lacklustre second place in the voting intention polls, and suffering from low approval ratings, but when the public are offered the choice of Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage as prime minister, the incumbent holds a commanding lead over the challenger by 44% to 29%.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52251-who-would-be-the-best-prime-minister-may-2025

    Without a decent wedge of "I don't like X, but I want to stop Y" votes, Reform are currently on "not enough". FPTP has always been a mixture of positive and negative votes, and having five parties turns that effect up to 11.
    I predict even Starmer’s head to head performance will crater over time. Indeed it will get so bad he will step down

    Moreover the Tories are inevitably going to replace Badenoch. If they have the sense to install Jenrick - energetic, clever, ruthless, tiny, good at social media - he could also prosper against the lifeless pathetic Sir Keir Traitor
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,008

    Dopermean said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Working for a law firm makes you a lawyer? Interesting.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Indeed. Go figure.
    That would be an accountant, surely?
    Is there a "Institute of Dupes" that could accept someone who was deployed to lobby an insurer to continue to underwrite bonds for a ponzi scheme?
    In tax schemes, you get a high end tax lawyer to proffer an opinion that your scheme is awesome. And completely legal.

    Lawyer gets paid well for the opinion.

    When HMRC rules against the schemes and fines everyone taking part, there is no recourse against the lawyer.

    There are stories of lawyers who have a 100% miss rate on such…
    I've sat in front of QCs charging £10k for a meeting, where they tell my client what he wants to hear, which is the opposite of what they charged £10k to tell a business rival who wanted to hear that opposite.
    It's a brave QC who charges £10k to tell a client something they don't want to hear. It's an even braver client who listens to difficult advice they have paid £10k for.

    (The same is true if you take the money away. It's one of the reasons for All This Mess.)
  • PJHPJH Posts: 873
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,463

    @rcs1000 am seeing an old certificate for *. on www – expired Monday 3 March 2025 at 23:59:59

    Next attempt redirects to www1 so presumably this time hits correct certificate.

    Indeed: let me check that in a bit.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,786
    Further proof that this government doesn't know what it believes in. A few weeks ago, the Labour MP for Shrewsbury asked the PM to back a bid by a prospective open access operator to run trains from Euston to Wrexham and the PM was very supportive in his answer:

    https://www.shropshirelive.com/news/2025/05/22/shrewsbury-mp-urges-prime-minister-to-back-direct-rail-link-to-london/

    The producer cut to Heidi Alexander and she didn't look all that pleased. Well, the DfT have written another letter to the ORR:

    https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2025-06/2025-06-20-Richard-Goodman-letter-to-ORR_Redacted.pdf

    How much wriggle-room the ORR has in determining what is reasonably abstractive, I don't know. But, did no one in the Labour Party have any understanding about the Railways Act, 1993 before they came to power? It's basic stuff. If you don't like the law, change it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361
    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
    What is a “jump seat”??
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,463

    Taz said:

    Peak Glastonbury here


    Peak Glasto would be having sex and/or vomiting on said bench.
    Actually, I think peak Glastonbury is a sunburnt 40 something passed out on the bench, with their bits on display. (And also sunburnt.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,463
    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
    What is a “jump seat”??
    It's extra fold out seat in the cockpit.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,087
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
    What is a “jump seat”??
    It's extra fold out seat in the cockpit.
    I doubt they ever offer that to anybody these days given terrorism concerns.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,324
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
    This is not actually true

    C4’s Dispatches about Farage by Fraser Nelson had a Survation poll where Farage topped the list as preferred PM

    No one scored highly. But Farage scored highest
    That's why I said head-to-head.

    Reform and Farage do have the biggest single slice of the electoral pie right now. But they are the second choice of very few. See the polling by YouGov;

    Labour may be in a lacklustre second place in the voting intention polls, and suffering from low approval ratings, but when the public are offered the choice of Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage as prime minister, the incumbent holds a commanding lead over the challenger by 44% to 29%.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52251-who-would-be-the-best-prime-minister-may-2025

    Without a decent wedge of "I don't like X, but I want to stop Y" votes, Reform are currently on "not enough". FPTP has always been a mixture of positive and negative votes, and having five parties turns that effect up to 11.
    I predict even Starmer’s head to head performance will crater over time. Indeed it will get so bad he will step down

    Moreover the Tories are inevitably going to replace Badenoch. If they have the sense to install Jenrick - energetic, clever, ruthless, tiny, good at social media - he could also prosper against the lifeless pathetic Sir Keir Traitor
    Jenrick would take more votes from Farage than Starmer
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
    What is a “jump seat”??
    It's extra fold out seat in the cockpit.
    Ooh. Cool. I wasn’t offered that

    They tried to find a staff member on the flight to remove so I could get on. No dice

    I might have a dozen Helford natives on the half shell and a bottle of Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru Domaine Leflaive 2014 here in T2, while I’m waiting, and charge it to the airline as “necessary sustenance”
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,786

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
    What is a “jump seat”??
    It's extra fold out seat in the cockpit.
    I doubt they ever offer that to anybody these days given terrorism concerns.
    I got to go in the cockpit of a Virgin Atlantic 747 at 38,000 feet on 12 August 2001. Reckon I was one of the last to have that pleasure.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,633
    So it turns out there's still a sizeable number of Labour MPs demanding more concessions to the benefits bill. Whether it's enough to see it defeated, difficult to say but looks like still some fun and games to play out on Monday and Tuesday. Feeling like the government can't even get a compromise right.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,087
    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
    What is a “jump seat”??
    It's extra fold out seat in the cockpit.
    I doubt they ever offer that to anybody these days given terrorism concerns.
    I got to go in the cockpit of a Virgin Atlantic 747 at 38,000 feet on 12 August 2001. Reckon I was one of the last to have that pleasure.
    More innocent times...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
    This is not actually true

    C4’s Dispatches about Farage by Fraser Nelson had a Survation poll where Farage topped the list as preferred PM

    No one scored highly. But Farage scored highest
    That's why I said head-to-head.

    Reform and Farage do have the biggest single slice of the electoral pie right now. But they are the second choice of very few. See the polling by YouGov;

    Labour may be in a lacklustre second place in the voting intention polls, and suffering from low approval ratings, but when the public are offered the choice of Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage as prime minister, the incumbent holds a commanding lead over the challenger by 44% to 29%.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52251-who-would-be-the-best-prime-minister-may-2025

    Without a decent wedge of "I don't like X, but I want to stop Y" votes, Reform are currently on "not enough". FPTP has always been a mixture of positive and negative votes, and having five parties turns that effect up to 11.
    I predict even Starmer’s head to head performance will crater over time. Indeed it will get so bad he will step down

    Moreover the Tories are inevitably going to replace Badenoch. If they have the sense to install Jenrick - energetic, clever, ruthless, tiny, good at social media - he could also prosper against the lifeless pathetic Sir Keir Traitor
    Jenrick would take more votes from Farage than Starmer
    For gods sake tell them to choose Jenrick. He’s your only hope. The only Tory with ideas and vigour and chutzpah

    If you choose cleverly or stride or whatever you are accepting terminal decline and irrelevance
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,463
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
    What is a “jump seat”??
    It's extra fold out seat in the cockpit.
    Ooh. Cool. I wasn’t offered that

    They tried to find a staff member on the flight to remove so I could get on. No dice

    I might have a dozen Helford natives on the half shell and a bottle of Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru Domaine Leflaive 2014 here in T2, while I’m waiting, and charge it to the airline as “necessary sustenance”
    Since 9/11, the jump seat is no longer available to passengers 😞
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,847
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
    This is not actually true

    C4’s Dispatches about Farage by Fraser Nelson had a Survation poll where Farage topped the list as preferred PM

    No one scored highly. But Farage scored highest
    That's why I said head-to-head.

    Reform and Farage do have the biggest single slice of the electoral pie right now. But they are the second choice of very few. See the polling by YouGov;

    Labour may be in a lacklustre second place in the voting intention polls, and suffering from low approval ratings, but when the public are offered the choice of Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage as prime minister, the incumbent holds a commanding lead over the challenger by 44% to 29%.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52251-who-would-be-the-best-prime-minister-may-2025

    Without a decent wedge of "I don't like X, but I want to stop Y" votes, Reform are currently on "not enough". FPTP has always been a mixture of positive and negative votes, and having five parties turns that effect up to 11.
    I predict even Starmer’s head to head performance will crater over time. Indeed it will get so bad he will step down

    Moreover the Tories are inevitably going to replace Badenoch. If they have the sense to install Jenrick - energetic, clever, ruthless, tiny, good at social media - he could also prosper against the lifeless pathetic Sir Keir Traitor
    Jenrick would take more votes from Farage than Starmer
    Yes. The corks will pop at Labour HQ if Jenrick becomes Con leader.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,463
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    When Johnson saw Walter Cronkite's damning report from Khe Sanh, he apparently said "if I've lost Cronkite I've just lost middle-America". If Starmer has lost John Rentoul, it really is all over.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1938873634850001395?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    When is Starmer going to lose you?
    I think I was one of the first to spot that he was a diabolical combination of uncharismatic berk and sociopathic liar.

    The truth is there are fewer Labour supporters under Starmer than there have been for years. This was so even at the time of the last election. The right splitting between Tory, Reform and Stay at Home and a quirk of our Electoral system just gave Labour spinners the opportunity to pretend Sir Keir was really popular.

    Think I’ve said this before, but it’s like a team winning the Premier League on 57 points by winning every home game 1-0, losing every away game 5-0 while every other match in the season was a draw. They’d win the league by 18 points, and that could be spun as some kind of impressive feat if you ignored the fact they’d lost half their matches, had a negative goal difference and won the league with the lowest points total of any champions in history.
    And yet, they still get their name engraved on the trophy.

    Two things can be true at once. One is that Starmer is not a Great PM. The reason that Starmer Fans never popped up to explain his poor polling is that there aren't (m)any.

    The other is that the options proffered by other parties are obviously, visibly even worse. See the head-to-head polling on preferred PM; SKS wins each one fairly comfortably, despite everything. But "none of the above/someone else" generally does even better.

    "Vote Starmer. He'll have to do, because the others are even worse." Not an inspiring slogan, but it's won once and may well win again. All those who would like something else have to do is find something inspiring and credible to put up against him as an alternative. It's that simple, but it also seems to be that impossible.
    This is not actually true

    C4’s Dispatches about Farage by Fraser Nelson had a Survation poll where Farage topped the list as preferred PM

    No one scored highly. But Farage scored highest
    That's why I said head-to-head.

    Reform and Farage do have the biggest single slice of the electoral pie right now. But they are the second choice of very few. See the polling by YouGov;

    Labour may be in a lacklustre second place in the voting intention polls, and suffering from low approval ratings, but when the public are offered the choice of Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage as prime minister, the incumbent holds a commanding lead over the challenger by 44% to 29%.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52251-who-would-be-the-best-prime-minister-may-2025

    Without a decent wedge of "I don't like X, but I want to stop Y" votes, Reform are currently on "not enough". FPTP has always been a mixture of positive and negative votes, and having five parties turns that effect up to 11.
    I predict even Starmer’s head to head performance will crater over time. Indeed it will get so bad he will step down

    Moreover the Tories are inevitably going to replace Badenoch. If they have the sense to install Jenrick - energetic, clever, ruthless, tiny, good at social media - he could also prosper against the lifeless pathetic Sir Keir Traitor
    Jenrick would take more votes from Farage than Starmer
    For gods sake tell them to choose Jenrick. He’s your only hope. The only Tory with ideas and vigour and chutzpah

    If you choose cleverly or stride or whatever you are accepting terminal decline and irrelevance
    Indeed: Jenrick could rescue the Conservatives. He's telegenic, vigarous, youthful (without appearing to still be an undergraduate), and can appeal to at least some Reform supporters, without scaring off traditional Conservatives.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,437
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just bumped off a full plane at Heathrow. First time that’s happened in many years

    I hope you managed to secure plenty of freebies.
    They are grovelling. Offering new flight, compo, free biz class return, free hotel when I arrive

    I don’t really care. The most annoying thing is that I got up at 5am for this fecking flight and now I won’t fly until 3pm

    AAAAAAARGH
    Unlucky! The one time I was nearly bumped they offered me a flight in the jump seat (it was that long ago!) and I had a brilliant ride into Heathrow!
    What is a “jump seat”??
    It's extra fold out seat in the cockpit.
    Ooh. Cool. I wasn’t offered that

    They tried to find a staff member on the flight to remove so I could get on. No dice

    I might have a dozen Helford natives on the half shell and a bottle of Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru Domaine Leflaive 2014 here in T2, while I’m waiting, and charge it to the airline as “necessary sustenance”
    They haven't comped you a decent lounge?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,361

    So it turns out there's still a sizeable number of Labour MPs demanding more concessions to the benefits bill. Whether it's enough to see it defeated, difficult to say but looks like still some fun and games to play out on Monday and Tuesday. Feeling like the government can't even get a compromise right.

    Utter shambles of a government. The inkjet printer of administrations

    They do two things kind of OK and then the third time the paper jams and the ink cartridge explodes and weird plastic flaps fall off and then the motor starts smouldering, potentially burning the house down, and all you wanted to do was print a 2 page pdf
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