By the way I’d define hyper-central quite narrowly, and place KX, Farringdon, Clerkenwell, Marylebone, Pimlico and the square mile outside it. Those are merely “central”
The actual City of London not in hyper-central London? Yes, if you take the point of view of the tourist. The places they might ideally want to stay and search on booking.com, before accepting they’ll need to be a small tube journey from the sites. Those extend only over a rectangle from roughly Marble Arch to Westminster Abbey to Covent Garden to Russell Square.
I think "hyper-central London" could be described as rectangle that contained Park Lane on its Westerly side, and Gower Street on its Easterly, with the Northern edge being Euston Road / Marylebone Road, and the Southern edge being The Mall / The Strand.
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
I think your hyper central London is too far north and west. In reality there is nothing of interest north of Oxford Street except the place that is excluded by your placement of the easterly boundary - namely the British Museum. I think hyper central London should have Oxford Street as its northern boundary, with a northern redoubt taking in Bloomsbury and the British Museum. The eastern boundary is Southampton Row and Kingsway, to take in theatre land. I would extend it over Waterloo Bridge and along the South Bank as far as Tate Modern to the east (or at least the National Theatre) and Westminster Bridge to the west, then along Birdcage Walk to Victoria and then up to Park Lane. Hyper central London needs to include the Palace of Westminster, the British Museum and the London Eye.
Wait.
People like this comment?
There is no way Bloomsbury is Central London, while Marylebone and Fitzrovia are not. Bloombsbury is a desolate wasteland compared to those two places.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
I've liven in London on and off since 1997 and in our current neighbourhood for 14years and I'd say all the places I frequent are on the up still. I can't speak to places I don't go to. I think it's the same as it always has been, some are tired of life, and hence tired of London. They are free to leave, this isn't East Germany.
You're not actually a Londoner then.
I think I'm still free to comment on the subject of London, unless site policy has changed.
You are as free to comment on London as I am on the cricket and the chances of Stokes retaining the yellow jersey this year for England.
Did I mention that London property is about to crater?
Right on cue
"London isn't as sought after as it was a decade ago" - some eye-catching quotes in this great piece on the "chronic decline" of the prime central London housing market, from my colleague Damian Shepherd“
Also, Alfie Moore - he of the It's a Fair Cop (excellent) podcast - told us that London is not in the top 6 murder areas in London. No.1 is Gloucestershire ffs.
Would have thought London would definitely be in the top 6 murder areas in London. It’s a Fair Cop is excellent, one of the few things we might agree on.
London has the highest homicide rate for a region (15.1 per million, over West Midlands on 13.7; 2023 figures). However, at a more detailed level, by police force area, London is not top. That's Cleveland (22.4), Derbyshire and then Lincolnshire (2024 figures). The Metropolitan Police area is 7th on those numbers (13.1).
Did I mention that London property is about to crater?
Right on cue
"London isn't as sought after as it was a decade ago" - some eye-catching quotes in this great piece on the "chronic decline" of the prime central London housing market, from my colleague Damian Shepherd“
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Actually yes you're right I'd forgotten that! Bought by Waterstones as has my beloved Heffers of Cambridge. This is why I always emit a hollow laugh every time Waterstones tries to pose as the plucky underdog trying to fight the evil Amazon.
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
Small changes in murder rates isn't what worry most people, as we know murder do occur but most murders in the UK are related to criminal behaviour or somebody they knew personally e.g. a domestic.
What gets people down is thought of daily shitty cimes, getting your mobile or your car nicked, your house broken into when you aren't there, and what worries people are when it is physical e.g. being mugged, house invasion when you are there or car jacked, or worse things like rapes.
The realisation now is that the police are doing an extremely poor job of ever tracking down people who are involved in particularly low level criminality.
Did I mention that London property is about to crater?
Right on cue
"London isn't as sought after as it was a decade ago" - some eye-catching quotes in this great piece on the "chronic decline" of the prime central London housing market, from my colleague Damian Shepherd“
Hyper Central London is SW1 (although you are likely to be stabbed and mugged on Lupus Street), SW3 (pretty safe there), SW5 (only for the Boltons and a bit of the Old Brompton Road, otherwise a tip), SW7 (heaven), NW3, W2 (the Pembridges and close environs only although still life-threatening), W8, W11 (selectively still can get murdered).
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
On 4).....having a bad day at the office, that's your last day on earth.
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
Scuba diving is surprisingly dangerous. More fatalities than almost any sport I believe
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
I've liven in London on and off since 1997 and in our current neighbourhood for 14years and I'd say all the places I frequent are on the up still. I can't speak to places I don't go to. I think it's the same as it always has been, some are tired of life, and hence tired of London. They are free to leave, this isn't East Germany.
"All the places I frequent" is obviously subject to discrimination though, you may have just stopped going to the crap places, or visited once and never again
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
At Stoke Mandeville Spinal Injuries Unit top 3 customers are:
By the way I’d define hyper-central quite narrowly, and place KX, Farringdon, Clerkenwell, Marylebone, Pimlico and the square mile outside it. Those are merely “central”
The actual City of London not in hyper-central London? Yes, if you take the point of view of the tourist. The places they might ideally want to stay and search on booking.com, before accepting they’ll need to be a small tube journey from the sites. Those extend only over a rectangle from roughly Marble Arch to Westminster Abbey to Covent Garden to Russell Square.
I think "hyper-central London" could be described as rectangle that contained Park Lane on its Westerly side, and Gower Street on its Easterly, with the Northern edge being Euston Road / Marylebone Road, and the Southern edge being The Mall / The Strand.
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
I think your hyper central London is too far north and west. In reality there is nothing of interest north of Oxford Street except the place that is excluded by your placement of the easterly boundary - namely the British Museum. I think hyper central London should have Oxford Street as its northern boundary, with a northern redoubt taking in Bloomsbury and the British Museum. The eastern boundary is Southampton Row and Kingsway, to take in theatre land. I would extend it over Waterloo Bridge and along the South Bank as far as Tate Modern to the east (or at least the National Theatre) and Westminster Bridge to the west, then along Birdcage Walk to Victoria and then up to Park Lane. Hyper central London needs to include the Palace of Westminster, the British Museum and the London Eye.
Wait.
People like this comment?
There is no way Bloomsbury is Central London, while Marylebone and Fitzrovia are not. Bloombsbury is a desolate wasteland compared to those two places.
There is nothing in Marylebone. It's just houses for rich people. Fitzrovia has a couple of okay pubs, that's it.
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
Scuba diving is surprisingly dangerous. More fatalities than almost any sport I believe
It is.
Horse riding also has a surprisingly large number of serious injuries.
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
Scuba diving is surprisingly dangerous. More fatalities than almost any sport I believe
It is.
Horse riding also has a surprisingly large number of serious injuries.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
It is also a white/non white thing
At a certain point diversity leads to lower trust societies, with greater atomisation. This is no one’s fault - whatever their colour - it is a known fact of human sociology
London has I fear tipped over the edge when insane levels of “diversity” have become a net negative as social trust is eroding in parallel
Sad but true. If I was a younger man with a family I’d get the heck out. And I would definitely not invest for a few years - see how things pan out. @rcs1000 is brave
As it happens I am tempted to stay put because
1. I kind of want to witness what happens to a world city with these revolutionary changes (remember there is another one coming, as well)
2. My kids are safely elsewhere - St Andrews, Australia
3. I still like my flat and neighbourhood especially now I am turning it into a decadent cocoon (the flat)
And
4. I am still paid to travel half the time and london remains possibly the best hub for doing that, in the world
I was talking to a former neighbour on Saturday who moved out of our neighbourhood because it was becoming too white.
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
What about downhill mountain biking? Asking for a friend.
I love history and reading about history. I've just started Dominic Sandbrook's "Who dares wins", about the history of Britain in the years 1979-1982 (essentially Maggie's first three years). Its starts with a stark depiction of the UK in terminal decline - nothing works, the nation is getting poorer, hotels are terrible, with rude staff and poor service (Fawlty Tower's is regarded as not that far from reality) and so on. Strikingly it records the New York Times laying into the UK from afar.
Its all so strikingly reminiscent of current times. What's interesting is when you move beyond the doomsayers, as Sandbrook does, it wasn't actually that bad. Were people better off in 1980 than in 1960? Undoubtedly. They had better houses, central heating, TV's , more stuff in general. And yet the air of decline was all around. Sandbrook points out that the real mallaise for Britain was that it was the first major industrial economy to start to move away from the traditional industries (coal, steel etc) to services, and so it looked like the 'sick man of Europe' mainly because it was the first country to undergo this process, not through an inherent problem.
The opening chapter resonates with me. We have so many people claiming national decline, and saying how awful it is, when at the same time arguably life ahs never been better for most people. Who among you would rather be living in the 80's again? Really?
One wonders what the future will bring. AI is clearly a challenge to many ways of earning a living. How far can it go? Will there be jobs in the future? How then does a society allocate wealth? How do you generate wealth?
Lots of questions, few answers. One thing I will add - interest in studying at University doesn't seem to be declining - we have seen record interest at our recent two Open Days. The University apocalypse has not yet started.
It will. If you think about it, it is inevitable
Some big wig in the Spectator is predicting that 80% of universities will shut within 10 years. That seems hyperbolic to me, but the direction is clear
Well, that would release a hell of a lot of modern studio flats onto the market, as good affordable housing. Subject to government changing the regulations to allow non-students to live in places that small.
(Are student flats counted in housebuilding stats? They're too small for normal habitation by law so maybe not...)
Chatted with the site surveyor of some student accommodation in West London, a while back. He was pretty open that, when you looked at soil stacks etc, the plan was obviously to build in conversion to "normal" flats. So a few non structural walls go, change the kitchen and bathrooms etc but the building itself is ready for it.
He reckoned that the idea was that the student gentrify the locality, while paying off the original paper on the building. Then covert and sell. And use part of the money to build new student accommodation, not far away, in another dodgy bit.
Sounds like a good thing. Why wouldn't that be something to be open about?
Student accommodation is a way round the planning laws requiring x amount of affordable housing.
IIRC, converting it for full domestic doesn’t trigger those rules.
Those laws should be abolished anyway.
All new housing improves affordability. All construction improves supply and affordability is supply versus demand.
Yes. Requiring a proportion of a development to be "affordable" is displacement activity from tackling the core problem of a mismatch between demand and supply.
But if you don't ensure a proportion of affordable housing in developments, you get a geographical distribution of affordability, resulting in a Paris rather than what has been familiar in London of greater social mixing in areas.
That was achieved in London by councils building homes for social renting - which I think is likely the only way Britain is going build enough homes to bring prices down.
I am strongly in favour of councils building homes for social renting. It is not something that has been supported in recent decades. I note the LibDems favour it.
Councils have outsourced this to ALMO's who raise capital (at a premium). They then take a proportion of affordable new builds on an estate (proportion defined in planning permission). Seems to work in the Bovis/Barratt estates close by.
There is also a site where the council *is* building using their own in-house company which has been a cock-up from the beginning. Site survey wasn't done properly. New survey showed additional costs and long delays.
Comparing the sites, Bovis/Barratt are up, running and people in them quickly. Affordable has been prioritised as they get money in quicker from the ALMO rather than piecemeal from individual mortgaged buyers. If the local experience is anything to go by, Councils shouldn't be let near housebuilding. Leave it to the housebuilders.
Edit: Should have said it's a LibDem/Independents council.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
It is also a white/non white thing
At a certain point diversity leads to lower trust societies, with greater atomisation. This is no one’s fault - whatever their colour - it is a known fact of human sociology
London has I fear tipped over the edge when insane levels of “diversity” have become a net negative as social trust is eroding in parallel
Sad but true. If I was a younger man with a family I’d get the heck out. And I would definitely not invest for a few years - see how things pan out. @rcs1000 is brave
As it happens I am tempted to stay put because
1. I kind of want to witness what happens to a world city with these revolutionary changes (remember there is another one coming, as well)
2. My kids are safely elsewhere - St Andrews, Australia
3. I still like my flat and neighbourhood especially now I am turning it into a decadent cocoon (the flat)
And
4. I am still paid to travel half the time and london remains possibly the best hub for doing that, in the world
I was talking to a former neighbour on Saturday who moved out of our neighbourhood because it was becoming too white.
Explain. You mean crusties/trust fund kids after gentrification?
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
Scuba diving is surprisingly dangerous. More fatalities than almost any sport I believe
It is.
Horse riding also has a surprisingly large number of serious injuries.
I don't find the latter surprising at all. You are racing along at speeds in excess of 30mph, several feet in the air with no safety belt on a beast without brakes or a steering wheel. What do you think is going to happen?
By the way I’d define hyper-central quite narrowly, and place KX, Farringdon, Clerkenwell, Marylebone, Pimlico and the square mile outside it. Those are merely “central”
The actual City of London not in hyper-central London? Yes, if you take the point of view of the tourist. The places they might ideally want to stay and search on booking.com, before accepting they’ll need to be a small tube journey from the sites. Those extend only over a rectangle from roughly Marble Arch to Westminster Abbey to Covent Garden to Russell Square.
I think "hyper-central London" could be described as rectangle that contained Park Lane on its Westerly side, and Gower Street on its Easterly, with the Northern edge being Euston Road / Marylebone Road, and the Southern edge being The Mall / The Strand.
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
I think your hyper central London is too far north and west. In reality there is nothing of interest north of Oxford Street except the place that is excluded by your placement of the easterly boundary - namely the British Museum. I think hyper central London should have Oxford Street as its northern boundary, with a northern redoubt taking in Bloomsbury and the British Museum. The eastern boundary is Southampton Row and Kingsway, to take in theatre land. I would extend it over Waterloo Bridge and along the South Bank as far as Tate Modern to the east (or at least the National Theatre) and Westminster Bridge to the west, then along Birdcage Walk to Victoria and then up to Park Lane. Hyper central London needs to include the Palace of Westminster, the British Museum and the London Eye.
Wait.
People like this comment?
There is no way Bloomsbury is Central London, while Marylebone and Fitzrovia are not. Bloombsbury is a desolate wasteland compared to those two places.
There is nothing in Marylebone. It's just houses for rich people. Fitzrovia has a couple of okay pubs, that's it.
Man, I must have imagined Baker Street and Marylebone High Street, both of which are 100x busier than Theobalds Road or Holborn.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
I've liven in London on and off since 1997 and in our current neighbourhood for 14years and I'd say all the places I frequent are on the up still. I can't speak to places I don't go to. I think it's the same as it always has been, some are tired of life, and hence tired of London. They are free to leave, this isn't East Germany.
You're not actually a Londoner then.
I think I'm still free to comment on the subject of London, unless site policy has changed.
I grew up a few hundred metres from where I now live in north London. My great-grandfather grew up a few hundred metres in the other direction. I win any true Londoner conversation.
Nothing new under the sun. I remember seeing a French magazine in the 1980s whose leading article was 'The fall of London'. Lots of picture of skinheads and punks giving the V sign.
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
Scuba diving is surprisingly dangerous. More fatalities than almost any sport I believe
It is.
Horse riding also has a surprisingly large number of serious injuries.
I don't find the latter surprising at all. You are racing along at speeds in excess of 30mph on a beast without brakes or a steering wheel. What do you think is going to happen?
By the way I’d define hyper-central quite narrowly, and place KX, Farringdon, Clerkenwell, Marylebone, Pimlico and the square mile outside it. Those are merely “central”
The actual City of London not in hyper-central London? Yes, if you take the point of view of the tourist. The places they might ideally want to stay and search on booking.com, before accepting they’ll need to be a small tube journey from the sites. Those extend only over a rectangle from roughly Marble Arch to Westminster Abbey to Covent Garden to Russell Square.
I think "hyper-central London" could be described as rectangle that contained Park Lane on its Westerly side, and Gower Street on its Easterly, with the Northern edge being Euston Road / Marylebone Road, and the Southern edge being The Mall / The Strand.
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
I think your hyper central London is too far north and west. In reality there is nothing of interest north of Oxford Street except the place that is excluded by your placement of the easterly boundary - namely the British Museum. I think hyper central London should have Oxford Street as its northern boundary, with a northern redoubt taking in Bloomsbury and the British Museum. The eastern boundary is Southampton Row and Kingsway, to take in theatre land. I would extend it over Waterloo Bridge and along the South Bank as far as Tate Modern to the east (or at least the National Theatre) and Westminster Bridge to the west, then along Birdcage Walk to Victoria and then up to Park Lane. Hyper central London needs to include the Palace of Westminster, the British Museum and the London Eye.
Wait.
People like this comment?
There is no way Bloomsbury is Central London, while Marylebone and Fitzrovia are not. Bloombsbury is a desolate wasteland compared to those two places.
There is nothing in Marylebone. It's just houses for rich people. Fitzrovia has a couple of okay pubs, that's it.
Man, I must have imagined Baker Street and Marylebone High Street, both of which are 100x busier than Theobalds Road or Holborn.
If busier is the criterion for "hyper London" then what about the Mile End Road.
Hyper central London is defined as, overall, the most desirable place to live. Doesn't count if you have a lovely townhouse on Borough High Street.
Always feels like an activity that is a when not if.
Compared to base jumping and cave diving, it's actually pretty safe.
I am happy to give those two a miss as well....
A few years ago, being in the insurance business, I came across some stats on "death or serious injury per 1,000 incidences".
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles (2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe (3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump (4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
Scuba diving is surprisingly dangerous. More fatalities than almost any sport I believe
It is.
Horse riding also has a surprisingly large number of serious injuries.
Neither of these is surprising. One involves sitting astride an enormous panicky animal, the other is deep underwater.
I've enjoyed doing both. I challenge PB to find genuine surprises. Dominoes is probably very high, given the demographic...
I have to give credit to Reform, they have some genius political communicators working for them. This Britannia card policy is, in political communication terms, almost perfect.
Compared to what the other parties have put out over the last several years it's on a different level entirely. People are seriously underestimating Reform. I no longer think that 40% at the general election is out of reach.
£250,000 for 10 years compared with New Zealand's requirement of £2.2 million over three years or £4.4 million over 10 years?
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
It is also a white/non white thing
At a certain point diversity leads to lower trust societies, with greater atomisation. This is no one’s fault - whatever their colour - it is a known fact of human sociology
London has I fear tipped over the edge when insane levels of “diversity” have become a net negative as social trust is eroding in parallel
Sad but true. If I was a younger man with a family I’d get the heck out. And I would definitely not invest for a few years - see how things pan out. @rcs1000 is brave
As it happens I am tempted to stay put because
1. I kind of want to witness what happens to a world city with these revolutionary changes (remember there is another one coming, as well)
2. My kids are safely elsewhere - St Andrews, Australia
3. I still like my flat and neighbourhood especially now I am turning it into a decadent cocoon (the flat)
And
4. I am still paid to travel half the time and london remains possibly the best hub for doing that, in the world
I don't think it is, in my parents area the enshittification is coming from Albanians and Bulgarians, both white and it's the middle class Indian and Carribbean black Brits who are leaving for Essex and Hertfordshire.
IMO, the dividing line is cultural values. People with traditional British values are seeing the city change at such a rapid pace and not to their liking that they're escaping. A lot of those people aren't necessarily white, I'd say the majority are but a big proportion will be Indians and black Carribbeans who arrived in the 60s and 70s, lived in places like Hackney, Islington, Harringey etc... when they came here and then moved out to suburbia in the late 80s and early 90s after right to buy. I think you probably don't see it because you're not in one of the suburbs where a big chunk is made up of "citizens of the empire" who are just as appalled by what's happening to the country as white British people.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
It is also a white/non white thing
At a certain point diversity leads to lower trust societies, with greater atomisation. This is no one’s fault - whatever their colour - it is a known fact of human sociology
London has I fear tipped over the edge when insane levels of “diversity” have become a net negative as social trust is eroding in parallel
Sad but true. If I was a younger man with a family I’d get the heck out. And I would definitely not invest for a few years - see how things pan out. @rcs1000 is brave
As it happens I am tempted to stay put because
1. I kind of want to witness what happens to a world city with these revolutionary changes (remember there is another one coming, as well)
2. My kids are safely elsewhere - St Andrews, Australia
3. I still like my flat and neighbourhood especially now I am turning it into a decadent cocoon (the flat)
And
4. I am still paid to travel half the time and london remains possibly the best hub for doing that, in the world
I was talking to a former neighbour on Saturday who moved out of our neighbourhood because it was becoming too white.
Explain. You mean crusties/trust fund kids after gentrification?
Our neighbourhood used to have a large African and Caribbean population. Over the last twenty years it has gradually become whiter owing to gentrification, as houses divided into flats have been turned back to large family homes and long standing owners have cashed in £1mn plus capital gains and moved further out. Our former neighbour is Ghanaian and misses the diversity, so she moved to Catford.
I have to give credit to Reform, they have some genius political communicators working for them. This Britannia card policy is, in political communication terms, almost perfect.
Compared to what the other parties have put out over the last several years it's on a different level entirely. People are seriously underestimating Reform. I no longer think that 40% at the general election is out of reach.
£250,000 for 10 years compared with New Zealand's requirement of £2.2 million over three years or £4.4 million over 10 years?
"Nigel's selling Britain on the cheap"
Immigration New Zealand says the scheme has attracted 189 applications....Under the new rules, 149 applied under the visa’s “growth” category i.e. the one you are talking about. Prior to the changes, the visa attracted 116 applications over 2.5 years.
Maybe they are selling them too high a cost? Also their scheme is investment in the country, not a non-refundable upfront fee. That is what the likes of Portugal have done as well, buy property worth more than x, or setup a business employing more than y.
For reference, the Osborne non-dom scheme cost between £30k -£90k a year depending on a load of factors.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
I've liven in London on and off since 1997 and in our current neighbourhood for 14years and I'd say all the places I frequent are on the up still. I can't speak to places I don't go to. I think it's the same as it always has been, some are tired of life, and hence tired of London. They are free to leave, this isn't East Germany.
You're not actually a Londoner then.
I think I'm still free to comment on the subject of London, unless site policy has changed.
I grew up a few hundred metres from where I now live in north London. My great-grandfather grew up a few hundred metres in the other direction. I win any true Londoner conversation.
This is all getting a bit Four Londoners.
"I was born in Charing Cross Station" "Charing Cross Station? You outsider! I was brought up begging under the Charles 1 statue."
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
I've liven in London on and off since 1997 and in our current neighbourhood for 14years and I'd say all the places I frequent are on the up still. I can't speak to places I don't go to. I think it's the same as it always has been, some are tired of life, and hence tired of London. They are free to leave, this isn't East Germany.
You're not actually a Londoner then.
I think I'm still free to comment on the subject of London, unless site policy has changed.
I grew up a few hundred metres from where I now live in north London. My great-grandfather grew up a few hundred metres in the other direction. I win any true Londoner conversation.
Well my dad is London born and bred but I didn't think we were going blood and soil in this discussion.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
It is also a white/non white thing
At a certain point diversity leads to lower trust societies, with greater atomisation. This is no one’s fault - whatever their colour - it is a known fact of human sociology
London has I fear tipped over the edge when insane levels of “diversity” have become a net negative as social trust is eroding in parallel
Sad but true. If I was a younger man with a family I’d get the heck out. And I would definitely not invest for a few years - see how things pan out. @rcs1000 is brave
As it happens I am tempted to stay put because
1. I kind of want to witness what happens to a world city with these revolutionary changes (remember there is another one coming, as well)
2. My kids are safely elsewhere - St Andrews, Australia
3. I still like my flat and neighbourhood especially now I am turning it into a decadent cocoon (the flat)
And
4. I am still paid to travel half the time and london remains possibly the best hub for doing that, in the world
I was talking to a former neighbour on Saturday who moved out of our neighbourhood because it was becoming too white.
Explain. You mean crusties/trust fund kids after gentrification?
Our neighbourhood used to have a large African and Caribbean population. Over the last twenty years it has gradually become whiter owing to gentrification, as houses divided into flats have been turned back to large family homes and long standing owners have cashed in £1mn plus capital gains and moved further out. Our former neighbour is Ghanaian and misses the diversity, so she moved to Catford.
Hopeless. Your former neighbour is a Londoner and should welcome the fact that London constantly changes.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
It is also a white/non white thing
At a certain point diversity leads to lower trust societies, with greater atomisation. This is no one’s fault - whatever their colour - it is a known fact of human sociology
London has I fear tipped over the edge when insane levels of “diversity” have become a net negative as social trust is eroding in parallel
Sad but true. If I was a younger man with a family I’d get the heck out. And I would definitely not invest for a few years - see how things pan out. @rcs1000 is brave
As it happens I am tempted to stay put because
1. I kind of want to witness what happens to a world city with these revolutionary changes (remember there is another one coming, as well)
2. My kids are safely elsewhere - St Andrews, Australia
3. I still like my flat and neighbourhood especially now I am turning it into a decadent cocoon (the flat)
And
4. I am still paid to travel half the time and london remains possibly the best hub for doing that, in the world
I was talking to a former neighbour on Saturday who moved out of our neighbourhood because it was becoming too white.
Explain. You mean crusties/trust fund kids after gentrification?
Our neighbourhood used to have a large African and Caribbean population. Over the last twenty years it has gradually become whiter owing to gentrification, as houses divided into flats have been turned back to large family homes and long standing owners have cashed in £1mn plus capital gains and moved further out. Our former neighbour is Ghanaian and misses the diversity, so she moved to Catford.
Is this not an anecdote about somebody preferring to live around their own kind?
By the way I’d define hyper-central quite narrowly, and place KX, Farringdon, Clerkenwell, Marylebone, Pimlico and the square mile outside it. Those are merely “central”
The actual City of London not in hyper-central London? Yes, if you take the point of view of the tourist. The places they might ideally want to stay and search on booking.com, before accepting they’ll need to be a small tube journey from the sites. Those extend only over a rectangle from roughly Marble Arch to Westminster Abbey to Covent Garden to Russell Square.
I think "hyper-central London" could be described as rectangle that contained Park Lane on its Westerly side, and Gower Street on its Easterly, with the Northern edge being Euston Road / Marylebone Road, and the Southern edge being The Mall / The Strand.
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
I think your hyper central London is too far north and west. In reality there is nothing of interest north of Oxford Street except the place that is excluded by your placement of the easterly boundary - namely the British Museum. I think hyper central London should have Oxford Street as its northern boundary, with a northern redoubt taking in Bloomsbury and the British Museum. The eastern boundary is Southampton Row and Kingsway, to take in theatre land. I would extend it over Waterloo Bridge and along the South Bank as far as Tate Modern to the east (or at least the National Theatre) and Westminster Bridge to the west, then along Birdcage Walk to Victoria and then up to Park Lane. Hyper central London needs to include the Palace of Westminster, the British Museum and the London Eye.
Wait.
People like this comment?
There is no way Bloomsbury is Central London, while Marylebone and Fitzrovia are not. Bloombsbury is a desolate wasteland compared to those two places.
There is nothing in Marylebone. It's just houses for rich people. Fitzrovia has a couple of okay pubs, that's it.
Man, I must have imagined Baker Street and Marylebone High Street, both of which are 100x busier than Theobalds Road or Holborn.
If busier is the criterion for "hyper London" then what about the Mile End Road.
Hyper central London is defined as, overall, the most desirable place to live. Doesn't count if you have a lovely townhouse on Borough High Street.
That's how you define it.
I lived in NW3. And I loved it. But I would never have never described it as Hyper Central London. I would have described it - like St John's Wood or Chelsea - as an expensive inner suburb.
@haynesdeborah Has the UK ever seemed so irrelevant in an international crisis? Genuine question... The government isn't even able to say publicly if it is for or against the US strikes on Iran Defence minister @LukePollard dodged the question despite being asked 4 times by @WilfredFrost
Q: Is our government pleased or disappointed that the US took this action (to attack Iran)? A: It is not for me to comment on the particular US action
There's no shame in a small nation with little geopolitical power being irrelevant in an international crisis. The usual boring criticism is that the UK hasn't adjusted to its irrelevance on the world stage. Interesting to find this time it is a commentator who hasn't adjusted to the change.
I agree and disagree. It's one thing to acknowledge that our foreign policy makes very little difference. It is quite another to ban ourselves from having one.
Oh, indeed. However with a US president like Mr Trump I think it's absolutely right to make no comment until our national interest in a situation is crystal clear.
rcs1000 - I agree with you that -- in general -- new housing, however expensive, increases the supply of affordable housing. However, there are exceptions, and the little street I live on (in one of the more expensive Seattle suburbs) has had examples in the last ten years.
In these three blocks, there have been at least five expensive new homes built in the last ten years, but all of them replaced older, but still usable, modest homes. (I suspect many of those were built for Boeing workers, decades ago.)
I haven't seen numbers on how common this replacement is, here, or elsewhere, but I do think it is a growing problem.
Yvette Coooper announces the government has banned PLA under anti terror laws
So all those that turn up to support them today are supporting a terrorist organisation?
I assume it will take a few days to become law
"It is understood this would start a parliamentary process which means Palestine Action would not be immediately proscribed, even once the statement is made."
By the way I’d define hyper-central quite narrowly, and place KX, Farringdon, Clerkenwell, Marylebone, Pimlico and the square mile outside it. Those are merely “central”
The actual City of London not in hyper-central London? Yes, if you take the point of view of the tourist. The places they might ideally want to stay and search on booking.com, before accepting they’ll need to be a small tube journey from the sites. Those extend only over a rectangle from roughly Marble Arch to Westminster Abbey to Covent Garden to Russell Square.
I think "hyper-central London" could be described as rectangle that contained Park Lane on its Westerly side, and Gower Street on its Easterly, with the Northern edge being Euston Road / Marylebone Road, and the Southern edge being The Mall / The Strand.
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
I think your hyper central London is too far north and west. In reality there is nothing of interest north of Oxford Street except the place that is excluded by your placement of the easterly boundary - namely the British Museum. I think hyper central London should have Oxford Street as its northern boundary, with a northern redoubt taking in Bloomsbury and the British Museum. The eastern boundary is Southampton Row and Kingsway, to take in theatre land. I would extend it over Waterloo Bridge and along the South Bank as far as Tate Modern to the east (or at least the National Theatre) and Westminster Bridge to the west, then along Birdcage Walk to Victoria and then up to Park Lane. Hyper central London needs to include the Palace of Westminster, the British Museum and the London Eye.
Wait.
People like this comment?
There is no way Bloomsbury is Central London, while Marylebone and Fitzrovia are not. Bloombsbury is a desolate wasteland compared to those two places.
There is nothing in Marylebone. It's just houses for rich people. Fitzrovia has a couple of okay pubs, that's it.
Man, I must have imagined Baker Street and Marylebone High Street, both of which are 100x busier than Theobalds Road or Holborn.
If busier is the criterion for "hyper London" then what about the Mile End Road.
Hyper central London is defined as, overall, the most desirable place to live. Doesn't count if you have a lovely townhouse on Borough High Street.
That's how you define it.
I lived in NW3. And I loved it. But I would never have never described it as Hyper Central London. I would have described it - like St John's Wood or Chelsea - as an expensive inner suburb.
Yes that is fair enough but where on earth did you get the Euston Road from. Are you talking geographically or desirabilityally.
I yield to no one in my estimation of the pro-Pal folk as entitled, white saviour, misguided, moronic, misinformed, numpties.
But I don't think they, or indeed Kneecap, should be proscribed.
Waving a flag is surely on the edge of free speech and frankly, I don't really care if they wave them.
I'm sure others (perhaps not the Board of Deputies of British Jews) think the same or similarly.
The definition is just getting diluted over time, which is the history of the English language. The difficulty is there are criminal ramifications for those who support them now.
We've already had people describe JSO as violent when they walk slowly down roads or close off motorways. Irritating? Sure. Criminal? Probably. But it's not terrorism, and nor is supporting their actions.
I'm sure we'll have the free speech bros along shortly to explain why they should all be jailed.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
I've liven in London on and off since 1997 and in our current neighbourhood for 14years and I'd say all the places I frequent are on the up still. I can't speak to places I don't go to. I think it's the same as it always has been, some are tired of life, and hence tired of London. They are free to leave, this isn't East Germany.
You're not actually a Londoner then.
I think I'm still free to comment on the subject of London, unless site policy has changed.
I grew up a few hundred metres from where I now live in north London. My great-grandfather grew up a few hundred metres in the other direction. I win any true Londoner conversation.
Well my dad is London born and bred but I didn't think we were going blood and soil in this discussion.
Soil? This is London. There's concrete and asphalt.
I agree with David Aaronovitch's brother, who wrote in his novel "Moon Over Soho":
Rowley's statement on the PA protest prior to the group's proscription is an absolute mess; one of the worst statements by a MET commissioner I've ever seen tbh. He is the MET head, not the Home secretary. Until the 30th June protest in favour of PA is perfectly legal, after it is not - that's all on Cooper though; Rowley could and should have stayed out of it and just policed (or banned after the 30th) the protests.
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
It is also a white/non white thing
At a certain point diversity leads to lower trust societies, with greater atomisation. This is no one’s fault - whatever their colour - it is a known fact of human sociology
London has I fear tipped over the edge when insane levels of “diversity” have become a net negative as social trust is eroding in parallel
Sad but true. If I was a younger man with a family I’d get the heck out. And I would definitely not invest for a few years - see how things pan out. @rcs1000 is brave
As it happens I am tempted to stay put because
1. I kind of want to witness what happens to a world city with these revolutionary changes (remember there is another one coming, as well)
2. My kids are safely elsewhere - St Andrews, Australia
3. I still like my flat and neighbourhood especially now I am turning it into a decadent cocoon (the flat)
And
4. I am still paid to travel half the time and london remains possibly the best hub for doing that, in the world
I was talking to a former neighbour on Saturday who moved out of our neighbourhood because it was becoming too white.
Explain. You mean crusties/trust fund kids after gentrification?
Our neighbourhood used to have a large African and Caribbean population. Over the last twenty years it has gradually become whiter owing to gentrification, as houses divided into flats have been turned back to large family homes and long standing owners have cashed in £1mn plus capital gains and moved further out. Our former neighbour is Ghanaian and misses the diversity, so she moved to Catford.
Is this not an anecdote about somebody preferring to live around their own kind?
In her case to live around some of her own kind, rather than none. Her kids' dad is white so I think she just wanted to live somewhere diverse rather than almost completely white (or black). I certainly understand her thinking, as someone who also has mixed race children.
Did I mention that London property is about to crater?
Right on cue
"London isn't as sought after as it was a decade ago" - some eye-catching quotes in this great piece on the "chronic decline" of the prime central London housing market, from my colleague Damian Shepherd“
Moneyweek magazine has been predicting a property price collapse for at least twenty years (seriously). In between telling you to buy gold, it’s their stock in trade - the latter has of course recently been a sound tip. The former has yet to transpire.
Rowley's statement on the PA protest prior to the group's proscription is an absolute mess; one of the worst statements by a MET commissioner I've ever seen tbh. He is the MET head, not the Home secretary. Until the 30th June protest in favour of PA is perfectly legal, after it is not - that's all on Cooper though; Rowley could and should have stayed out of it and just policed (or banned after the 30th) the protests.
Symptomatic of everything unravelling under this government. They've lost the room totally and everything underneath is chaos . I'm calling it. They wont make 2029, it will all fall apart long before despite the landslide
I love history and reading about history. I've just started Dominic Sandbrook's "Who dares wins", about the history of Britain in the years 1979-1982 (essentially Maggie's first three years). Its starts with a stark depiction of the UK in terminal decline - nothing works, the nation is getting poorer, hotels are terrible, with rude staff and poor service (Fawlty Tower's is regarded as not that far from reality) and so on. Strikingly it records the New York Times laying into the UK from afar.
Its all so strikingly reminiscent of current times. What's interesting is when you move beyond the doomsayers, as Sandbrook does, it wasn't actually that bad. Were people better off in 1980 than in 1960? Undoubtedly. They had better houses, central heating, TV's , more stuff in general. And yet the air of decline was all around. Sandbrook points out that the real mallaise for Britain was that it was the first major industrial economy to start to move away from the traditional industries (coal, steel etc) to services, and so it looked like the 'sick man of Europe' mainly because it was the first country to undergo this process, not through an inherent problem.
The opening chapter resonates with me. We have so many people claiming national decline, and saying how awful it is, when at the same time arguably life ahs never been better for most people. Who among you would rather be living in the 80's again? Really?
One wonders what the future will bring. AI is clearly a challenge to many ways of earning a living. How far can it go? Will there be jobs in the future? How then does a society allocate wealth? How do you generate wealth?
Lots of questions, few answers. One thing I will add - interest in studying at University doesn't seem to be declining - we have seen record interest at our recent two Open Days. The University apocalypse has not yet started.
I think life was better in the 80s in some respects, not all.
70's, apart from the Winter of Discontent, were better than now, as were the early 80's. Not personally, especially later, but that was due to my poor decision making.
Don't beat yourself up over it. Nobody gets to their older years without scars
I’m not really beating myself up, but karma can be a bitch!
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
I've liven in London on and off since 1997 and in our current neighbourhood for 14years and I'd say all the places I frequent are on the up still. I can't speak to places I don't go to. I think it's the same as it always has been, some are tired of life, and hence tired of London. They are free to leave, this isn't East Germany.
You're not actually a Londoner then.
I think I'm still free to comment on the subject of London, unless site policy has changed.
I grew up a few hundred metres from where I now live in north London. My great-grandfather grew up a few hundred metres in the other direction. I win any true Londoner conversation.
Well my dad is London born and bred but I didn't think we were going blood and soil in this discussion.
Soil? This is London. There's concrete and asphalt.
I agree with David Aaronovitch's brother, who wrote in his novel "Moon Over Soho":
He's a great writer - that whole series is a joy. And there is a point to this that perhaps goes wider, and touches immigration. I lived for a year in New Zealand, working as a post doc at Auckland Uni. I lived in a shared house and threw myself into New Zealand life. It was great. I watched the news, read the papers, talked to people. I socialised with Kiwis, dated a few, nearly married one. Sure it was easy as Brits and Kiwis are fairly similar in outlook, and I loved rugby, the key dealbreaker in the country (where even little old ladies at the post office will talk to you about 'bringing back Buck'). I a sense I became a Kiwi for the year, and came back to Blighty with a bit of an accent. I think I would have morphed into a full on Kiwi if I had stayed.
In the UK some immigrants are similar. We talk about issues with immigration from the sub-continent but Indians seem to find it easier to integrate. Maybe its Islam? Maybe the strictures of not drinking make it too hard? One of my friends played cricket for a while in Glasgow, mainly with players of Pakistani descent. There was no pub culture. I mainly play cricket for the banter and a pint.
So its not just London and Londoners. I think people the world over can move to other places and find themselves at home or not.
Straits of Hormuz. Surely there is a brilliant money-making scheme to be done for the UAE to cut a canal across the peninsula to bypass the straits completely...
I would argue that the area of Central London where my apartment is (Shaftesbury Avenue) has gotten worse. We're right by Forbidden Planet, and the number of homeless drug addicts on the street has dramatically increased in the post Covid period.
I used to go up Tottenham Court Road way quite a bit and that was a very grim area in the late 80s through to much of the 90s. Whenever I read these "London is done" stories I always think that they can't remember just how bad it was before.
This is why the question is impossible to answer. Tottenham Court Road is much cleaner and safer than it used to be but I never go there anymore because all of the electronics and audio shops are gone. I used to love walking up Tottenham Court Road looking in the windows and occasionally buying some interesting bit of outdated electronics that the shops still had stock of. Which of these two situations makes Tottenham Court Road 'better' is entirely subjective.
I used to buy new mobile phones on Tottenham Court Road, in the brief period before buying everything online.
If I was at leisure I used to do a shopping trip starting at the Waterstones in Gower Street (brilliant second hand section from all of the UCL academics), walking up Tottenham Court Road to look at the electronics, visit the second hand bookshops in Charing Cross and finish up with the weird shops in Cecil Court. There are still a couple of good bookshops in Charing Cross Road but they're being edged out by Korean shops and eateries.
I’m so old - and a UCL alumnus - I can remember when that Waterstone’s was a Dillion’s
That corner of London definitely had more “character” back then
Yes it did, I lived in London 1995-2002 and frequented that area. It was getting a bit seedy even then but the bookshops etc was great, there was a big map shop on Charing Cross Road I used to go to when travelling, can't remember the name.
Stuff changes. Until my 9th birthday I lived in Wandsworth. It wasn't posh. My parents rented a flat in a house. That house is now worth £5 - £10 million. A huge change.
In the late 70s early 80s my girlfriend rented a shared house in Leytonstone. A friend of mine's son is buying there and I was surprised at it used to be very rough. Apparently that isn't the case now at all. It is rather nice.
London is always changing. Some places are on the up. Others - once nice - have fallen victim to changing work or shopping patterns.
The trick is to avoid buying at the top (or selling at the bottom).
Agree that London is a city that's always been changing and always will, however, and it's a big one. If you've lived here for 20+ years you can see how it's generally been getting worse. The enshittification of the city has now reached alarming levels and the silent majority who work hard and just want to get on in life are being driven out by the mayor and high crime rates. London's domestic generational wealth is waving goodbye to the city and the mayor and police seem to be clueless as to how to stop it.
It is also a white/non white thing
At a certain point diversity leads to lower trust societies, with greater atomisation. This is no one’s fault - whatever their colour - it is a known fact of human sociology
London has I fear tipped over the edge when insane levels of “diversity” have become a net negative as social trust is eroding in parallel
Sad but true. If I was a younger man with a family I’d get the heck out. And I would definitely not invest for a few years - see how things pan out. @rcs1000 is brave
As it happens I am tempted to stay put because
1. I kind of want to witness what happens to a world city with these revolutionary changes (remember there is another one coming, as well)
2. My kids are safely elsewhere - St Andrews, Australia
3. I still like my flat and neighbourhood especially now I am turning it into a decadent cocoon (the flat)
And
4. I am still paid to travel half the time and london remains possibly the best hub for doing that, in the world
I was talking to a former neighbour on Saturday who moved out of our neighbourhood because it was becoming too white.
Explain. You mean crusties/trust fund kids after gentrification?
Our neighbourhood used to have a large African and Caribbean population. Over the last twenty years it has gradually become whiter owing to gentrification, as houses divided into flats have been turned back to large family homes and long standing owners have cashed in £1mn plus capital gains and moved further out. Our former neighbour is Ghanaian and misses the diversity, so she moved to Catford.
Is this not an anecdote about somebody preferring to live around their own kind?
I was thinking about this last night; I think people cry "Racist" at those who more likely just like to live with people like themselves, which until very recently was standard everywhere in the world. The advent of multiculturalism has brought with it a lot of box ticking, and debate over box ticking, to try and ensure fairness. These hoops to jump through/to have to think about simply didn't exist when there was generally only one race. For most people trying to scrape by or have a quiet life, it's a ballache they don't need, and the angst they feel at being told what to do or say fuels resentment more than the difference in colour or religion did in the first place
BREAKING: Ukraine's SBU reports that authorities have foiled an assassination attempt on Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at Rzeszów airport in Poland
BREAKING: Ukraine's SBU reports that authorities have foiled an assassination attempt on Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at Rzeszów airport in Poland
I presume really it was just some Russians on a day trip to visit the famous castle.
Russia recruited a retired Polish soldier to assassinate Zelensky in Rzeszòw using a sniper rifle or an FPV drone, claims the head of Ukrainian SBU intelligence Maliuk. The plot was foiled in collaboration with Polish authorities. The Russian agent had been recruited decades ago, he says.
Russia recruited a retired Polish soldier to assassinate Zelensky in Rzeszòw using a sniper rifle or an FPV drone, claims the head of Ukrainian SBU intelligence Maliuk. The plot was foiled in collaboration with Polish authorities. The Russian agent had been recruited decades ago, he says.
First visit in a year. Feeling quite prosperous. Ok the sun is out and it’s June and I’m in one of the loveliest corners of a lovely county - right now the Trelissick Estate
But it feels nice. I’ve noticed they’ve started doing the French thing in making the roundabouts look beautiful and unique and relevant to the local history. Presumably that’s the brilliant new Reform councillors at work, already
These things seem so trivial. But they are so powerful. The “hanging baskets” version of “broken windows theory”. If you make your area look agreeable then it cheers people up and they go home and they thing “oh I live somewhere pleasant” and that increases positivity overall - and you’re less likely to trash your environs
This stuff is pretty easy, I have no idea why Labour aren’t all over it
For balance I will go into Truro town centre - which a year ago was looking really shabby
First visit in a year. Feeling quite prosperous. Ok the sun is out and it’s June and I’m in one of the loveliest corners of a lovely county - right now the Trelissick Estate
But it feels nice. I’ve noticed they’ve started doing the French thing in making the roundabouts look really nice. Presumably that’s the brilliant new Reform councillors at work, already
These things seem so trivial. But they are so powerful. The “hanging baskets” version of “broken windows theory”. If you make your area look nice then it cheers people up and they go home and they thing “oh I live somewhere nice” and that increases positivity overall - and you’re less likely to trash somewhere nice
This stuff is pretty easy I have no idea why Labour aren’t all over it
For balance I will go into Truro town centre which a year ago was looking really shabby
Which reminds me - when I next go to Chablis, I really need to destroy The Hand Of Chablis. It's a sculpture on a roundabout. Don't Google it - somethings, once seen cannot be unseen.
First visit in a year. Feeling quite prosperous. Ok the sun is out and it’s June and I’m in one of the loveliest corners of a lovely county - right now the Trelissick Estate
But it feels nice. I’ve noticed they’ve started doing the French thing in making the roundabouts look beautiful and unique and relevant to the local history. Presumably that’s the brilliant new Reform councillors at work, already
These things seem so trivial. But they are so powerful. The “hanging baskets” version of “broken windows theory”. If you make your area look agreeable then it cheers people up and they go home and they thing “oh I live somewhere pleasant” and that increases positivity overall - and you’re less likely to trash your environs
This stuff is pretty easy, I have no idea why Labour aren’t all over it
For balance I will go into Truro town centre - which a year ago was looking really shabby
And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.
Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
“At war” and a single night of limited bombing aimed at WMD facilities are qualitatively not the same thing, as you (and AOC) well understand.
It presents an interesting alt-history actually. Imagine if we had none of Colin Powell and Blair’s UN shenanigans. And W had just sent in B2s to take out the most notable legacy WMD sites in a night or three - Desert Fox v2. That old b*stare Hussein would probably be sat on his golden toilet sending out viral tweets.
Thank goodness none of the definitely not at war US hierarchy are mentioning regime change.
There should be regime change and pressure towards it.
But there's not boots on the ground.
So what's your problem?
Maybe you should volunteer?
Since Trump has attacked Iran, one day into his own two week negotiation deadline, that I think makes US forces legal targets for Iran.
Now that he has doubled down on "regime change", does that mean that they can now legitimately go for "regime change" in the USA?
First visit in a year. Feeling quite prosperous. Ok the sun is out and it’s June and I’m in one of the loveliest corners of a lovely county - right now the Trelissick Estate
But it feels nice. I’ve noticed they’ve started doing the French thing in making the roundabouts look beautiful and unique and relevant to the local history. Presumably that’s the brilliant new Reform councillors at work, already
These things seem so trivial. But they are so powerful. The “hanging baskets” version of “broken windows theory”. If you make your area look agreeable then it cheers people up and they go home and they thing “oh I live somewhere pleasant” and that increases positivity overall - and you’re less likely to trash your environs
This stuff is pretty easy, I have no idea why Labour aren’t all over it
For balance I will go into Truro town centre - which a year ago was looking really shabby
First visit in a year. Feeling quite prosperous. Ok the sun is out and it’s June and I’m in one of the loveliest corners of a lovely county - right now the Trelissick Estate
But it feels nice. I’ve noticed they’ve started doing the French thing in making the roundabouts look beautiful and unique and relevant to the local history. Presumably that’s the brilliant new Reform councillors at work, already
These things seem so trivial. But they are so powerful. The “hanging baskets” version of “broken windows theory”. If you make your area look agreeable then it cheers people up and they go home and they thing “oh I live somewhere pleasant” and that increases positivity overall - and you’re less likely to trash your environs
This stuff is pretty easy, I have no idea why Labour aren’t all over it
For balance I will go into Truro town centre - which a year ago was looking really shabby
Do you fly there from London?
He went by train yesterday without a cork screw to open his possibly £8 bottle of red
First visit in a year. Feeling quite prosperous. Ok the sun is out and it’s June and I’m in one of the loveliest corners of a lovely county - right now the Trelissick Estate
But it feels nice. I’ve noticed they’ve started doing the French thing in making the roundabouts look beautiful and unique and relevant to the local history. Presumably that’s the brilliant new Reform councillors at work, already
These things seem so trivial. But they are so powerful. The “hanging baskets” version of “broken windows theory”. If you make your area look agreeable then it cheers people up and they go home and they thing “oh I live somewhere pleasant” and that increases positivity overall - and you’re less likely to trash your environs
This stuff is pretty easy, I have no idea why Labour aren’t all over it
For balance I will go into Truro town centre - which a year ago was looking really shabby
Do you fly there from London?
He went by train yesterday without a cork screw to open his possibly £8 bottle of red
Cune Reserva Rioja
£15 from Waitrose (which is where I got it online)
And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.
Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
“At war” and a single night of limited bombing aimed at WMD facilities are qualitatively not the same thing, as you (and AOC) well understand.
It presents an interesting alt-history actually. Imagine if we had none of Colin Powell and Blair’s UN shenanigans. And W had just sent in B2s to take out the most notable legacy WMD sites in a night or three - Desert Fox v2. That old b*stare Hussein would probably be sat on his golden toilet sending out viral tweets.
Thank goodness none of the definitely not at war US hierarchy are mentioning regime change.
There should be regime change and pressure towards it.
But there's not boots on the ground.
So what's your problem?
Maybe you should volunteer?
Since Trump has attacked Iran, one day into his own two week negotiation deadline, that I think makes US forces legal targets for Iran.
Now that he has doubled down on "regime change", does that mean that they can now legitimately go for "regime change" in the USA?
Tbf, there was no '2 week negotiation deadline', a decision would be taken 'within the next 2 weeks' as was pointed out at the time. It was the same time confusion tactic seen at the initial assault by Israel.
Also, Alfie Moore - he of the It's a Fair Cop (excellent) podcast - told us that London is not in the top 6 murder areas in London. No.1 is Gloucestershire ffs.
The London murder rate is incredibly low for a city with almost 10 million people. The number so far this year is 34.
NEW: The King held an audience with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky at Windsor Castle. Charles welcomed Zelensky in the Grand Corridor before a meeting followed by lunch. Zelensky will meet Sir Keir Starmer in London this afternoon.
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There is no way Bloomsbury is Central London, while Marylebone and Fitzrovia are not. Bloombsbury is a desolate wasteland compared to those two places.
The things I took out of this were:
(1) My children will never be allowed to own motorcycles
(2) Skydiving is surprisingly safe
(3) Cave diving and base jumping are 10x more dangerous than wing suit flying, which is 100x more dangerous than a regular parachute jump
(4) Don't ever let your kids get into free climbing
What gets people down is thought of daily shitty cimes, getting your mobile or your car nicked, your house broken into when you aren't there, and what worries people are when it is physical e.g. being mugged, house invasion when you are there or car jacked, or worse things like rapes.
The realisation now is that the police are doing an extremely poor job of ever tracking down people who are involved in particularly low level criminality.
Your welcome.
1. Motorcycles
2. Horses
3. Swimming pools/shallow beaches.
Horse riding also has a surprisingly large number of serious injuries.
There is also a site where the council *is* building using their own in-house company which has been a cock-up from the beginning. Site survey wasn't done properly. New survey showed additional costs and long delays.
Comparing the sites, Bovis/Barratt are up, running and people in them quickly. Affordable has been prioritised as they get money in quicker from the ALMO rather than piecemeal from individual mortgaged buyers. If the local experience is anything to go by, Councils shouldn't be let near housebuilding. Leave it to the housebuilders.
Edit: Should have said it's a LibDem/Independents council.
Hyper central London is defined as, overall, the most desirable place to live. Doesn't count if you have a lovely townhouse on Borough High Street.
I've enjoyed doing both. I challenge PB to find genuine surprises. Dominoes is probably very high, given the demographic...
"Nigel's selling Britain on the cheap"
Yvette Coooper announces the government has banned PLA under anti terror laws
IMO, the dividing line is cultural values. People with traditional British values are seeing the city change at such a rapid pace and not to their liking that they're escaping. A lot of those people aren't necessarily white, I'd say the majority are but a big proportion will be Indians and black Carribbeans who arrived in the 60s and 70s, lived in places like Hackney, Islington, Harringey etc... when they came here and then moved out to suburbia in the late 80s and early 90s after right to buy. I think you probably don't see it because you're not in one of the suburbs where a big chunk is made up of "citizens of the empire" who are just as appalled by what's happening to the country as white British people.
Maybe they are selling them too high a cost? Also their scheme is investment in the country, not a non-refundable upfront fee. That is what the likes of Portugal have done as well, buy property worth more than x, or setup a business employing more than y.
For reference, the Osborne non-dom scheme cost between £30k -£90k a year depending on a load of factors.
"I was born in Charing Cross Station"
"Charing Cross Station? You outsider! I was brought up begging under the Charles 1 statue."
But I don't think they, or indeed Kneecap, should be proscribed.
Waving a flag is surely on the edge of free speech and frankly, I don't really care if they wave them.
I'm sure others (perhaps not the Board of Deputies of British Jews) think the same or similarly.
I lived in NW3. And I loved it. But I would never have never described it as Hyper Central London. I would have described it - like St John's Wood or Chelsea - as an expensive inner suburb.
In these three blocks, there have been at least five expensive new homes built in the last ten years, but all of them replaced older, but still usable, modest homes. (I suspect many of those were built for Boeing workers, decades ago.)
I haven't seen numbers on how common this replacement is, here, or elsewhere, but I do think it is a growing problem.
(This may be one of the causes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Growth_Management_Act )
But if its the Palestinian Liberation Army I am astounded that they were not banned already. Astounded.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g83l33wdeo
We've already had people describe JSO as violent when they walk slowly down roads or close off motorways. Irritating? Sure. Criminal? Probably. But it's not terrorism, and nor is supporting their actions.
I'm sure we'll have the free speech bros along shortly to explain why they should all be jailed.
I agree with David Aaronovitch's brother, who wrote in his novel "Moon Over Soho":
Think that’s stopped now, happily.
They are just inane and rudderless
He is the MET head, not the Home secretary. Until the 30th June protest in favour of PA is perfectly legal, after it is not - that's all on Cooper though; Rowley could and should have stayed out of it and just policed (or banned after the 30th) the protests.
🇫🇷🔥More scenes of chaos from Paris during the popular Music Festival 2025 (Fête de la Musique).
🔺371 arrested
🔪6 people stabbed, 1 in critical condition
🩸1,500 people injured
🚨13 police officers injured
🔥51 vehicles were set on fire
That is a disgrace.
You must make an absolute fortune if you have the contracts for glass replacement services in major French cities.
The Parisians can't even do proper rioting any more.
I'm calling it. They wont make 2029, it will all fall apart long before despite the landslide
In the UK some immigrants are similar. We talk about issues with immigration from the sub-continent but Indians seem to find it easier to integrate. Maybe its Islam? Maybe the strictures of not drinking make it too hard? One of my friends played cricket for a while in Glasgow, mainly with players of Pakistani descent. There was no pub culture. I mainly play cricket for the banter and a pint.
So its not just London and Londoners. I think people the world over can move to other places and find themselves at home or not.
Edit - 'immense' is perhaps overdoing it 😆
They are dreadful enough that my rose tinted mirror is rosier than ever
BREAKING: Ukraine's SBU reports that authorities have foiled an assassination attempt on Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at Rzeszów airport in Poland
Russia recruited a retired Polish soldier to assassinate Zelensky in Rzeszòw using a sniper rifle or an FPV drone, claims the head of Ukrainian SBU intelligence Maliuk. The plot was foiled in collaboration with Polish authorities. The Russian agent had been recruited decades ago, he says.
https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1937133205036920893
First visit in a year. Feeling quite prosperous. Ok the sun is out and it’s June and I’m in one of the loveliest corners of a lovely county - right now the Trelissick Estate
But it feels nice. I’ve noticed they’ve started doing the French thing in making the roundabouts look beautiful and unique and relevant to the local history. Presumably that’s the brilliant new Reform councillors at work, already
These things seem so trivial. But they are so powerful. The “hanging baskets” version of “broken windows theory”. If you make your area look agreeable then it cheers people up and they go home and they thing “oh I live somewhere pleasant” and that increases positivity overall - and you’re less likely to trash your environs
This stuff is pretty easy, I have no idea why Labour aren’t all over it
For balance I will go into Truro town centre - which a year ago was looking really shabby
Now that he has doubled down on "regime change", does that mean that they can now legitimately go for "regime change" in the USA?
5 x Lab, 2 x Ind, 2x LD and 1x Con defence
https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1937072584715374866?s=19
£15 from Waitrose (which is where I got it online)
https://www.waitrosecellar.com/products/cune-rioja-reserva-075985
£12-£20 is the sweet spot for red wine
https://www.woking.gov.uk/news/borough-and-county-elections-called-councillor-steps-down
I was a bit confused when I saw lots of yellow signs in Old Woking on Saturday.
https://www.murdermap.co.uk/victims/murders-london-2025-total-how-many/
NEW: The King held an audience with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky at Windsor Castle.
Charles welcomed Zelensky in the Grand Corridor before a meeting followed by lunch. Zelensky will meet Sir Keir Starmer in London this afternoon.
https://x.com/KateMansey/status/1937133258187378751