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  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,445

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,997

    .

    What should alarm the government is not only Starmer's u turns but the car crash performances of Darren Jones and now Emma Reynolds today

    It isn't really a surprise - the politics of Labour saying no no no no no no and now yes makes them look like they are being blown around in the wind. Having make a tenuous case that a national enquiry makes for slower justice they now have to say that it makes for faster justoce and no of course they haven't changed their minds.

    They are almost preposterously shit at politics.
    This all comes back to the fact that they are not led by any underlying principles or sense of identity.

    Yes, things do go wrong if ideology is allowed to play out in an unrestrained manner, but I can’t tell you what Current Labour are for, at the moment, and what their sense of purpose is.

    This is because of Starmer’s managerial instincts - principles are unhelpful to him, and he’s succeeded in politics largely by paying scant regard to them. But in government people want to know what you’re aiming for, what road you’re travelling down, the place you’re going to. Labour are failing on setting this out, day after day after day, and their messaging will not improve until such point as they know what (and who) they stand for. It might already be too late for Starmer.
    Starmer's problem, I suggest, is that he was seen as a White Knight to deal with Labour's problems after the Red Knight, Corbyn. Corbyn was painted by the largely Tory media as a potential seller-out of the UK to the Far Left, and had succeeded Milliband who, grossly unfairly in my view, was perceived as incompetent. Milliband should not have resigned after his 'defeat' in 2015; neither Wilson nor Attlee did in similar circumstances in the 50's and 60's; he was far better equipped to lead the party than Corbyn.

    I suggest that political experience is needed to lead a political party and Starmer simply doesn't have it. Labour supporter yes, but little or no experience as a recent activist. Compared with Angela Rayner he's an innocent abroad.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,722

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    I am surprised you rely on social media but we will see

    And they are attacking Starmer for his recognised u turn and his use of language towards them of hard right and racism
    Labour have made a godawful mess of this and are rightly going to get booted in the head. I've said that from the start. But the idea that the Tories can capitalise is plainly absurd - they are rightly getting roasted for the brass neck in doing nothing and complaining that Labour are doing nothing.

    Social media can be a terrible talking shop. But it's also the place where trends emerge. In 2025 it's a reality that Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are the main sources of news for large numbers of people - primarily because it's interactive.

    You seem to be suggesting that the Tories are going to benefit. They will not - but Reform will. We probably both agree that is a Bad Thing. But it doesn't make it less of a reality.
    I didn’t say the conservatives would benefit but certainly they along with Reform deserve a full apology from Starmer and several members of his cabinet for accusing their request as far right and rascist
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    edited June 16
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is worrying imo.

    "Civil servants handed ‘dangerous’ power to spy on public’s bank records
    Privacy campaigners brand proposals in new fraud Bill a ‘snoopers’ charter’" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/16/civil-servants-handed-dangerous-power-spy-bank-accounts/

    The nothing to hide, nothing to worry about Quislings will be along to defend it to all critics
    Not quite, most of the people who think it’s carte blanc to spy don’t understand how much this stuff is audited.

    Yes it may be abused but good luck getting a job after being fired on the spot for gross misconduct with the police case following afterwards.
    For now. And when they don't get the results they want the powers will be increased to include transaction data etc.
    Its an assumption of wrongdoing measure
    I would hope they are getting the transactional data, a balance is neither use nor ornament when it comes to this type of investigation
    There is no access to transactions unless a formal fraud investigation is flagged per current rules.
    Obviously what you spend your money on (legally) is nobody's business
    The data they access routinely will be to ensure no large deposits from unknown sources regularly and that balances do not exceed savings limits in the case of benefits claimants etc
    This is for generic reporting on all benefits recipients, because we are apparently all potential wrong uns
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 963
    edited June 16
    Andy_JS said:

    This is worrying imo.

    "Civil servants handed ‘dangerous’ power to spy on public’s bank records
    Privacy campaigners brand proposals in new fraud Bill a ‘snoopers’ charter’" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/16/civil-servants-handed-dangerous-power-spy-bank-accounts/

    They've always done this with benefit overpayment or debts. Nothing new here but then it is the Telegraph.

    There is a restriction on the amount recovered should it cause an inability to heat/eat/work etc.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Merlin Strategy had polling out at the weekend with 'would be prepared to consider' data
    As it stands Reform, Labour, Tory are the three vying for top 2 (34, 31, 28 respectively) LDs and Greens hit 21 and 16 so without a total collapse, its going to be perm 2 from reform, Labour, tory at GE (29?)
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 963

    Andy_JS said:

    This is worrying imo.

    "Civil servants handed ‘dangerous’ power to spy on public’s bank records
    Privacy campaigners brand proposals in new fraud Bill a ‘snoopers’ charter’" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/16/civil-servants-handed-dangerous-power-spy-bank-accounts/

    As they are our servants, I assume they will have no problem in telling us, their masters, the details of their own bank accounts.
    If you think about it, any money owed to HMRC is the taxpayers' money so should be recovered. That and Personal Injury claims are two amounts that are almost* always collected.

    HMRC have been known to do deals with large companies where large amounts are due (to their shame IMHO)
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    I am surprised you rely on social media but we will see

    And they are attacking Starmer for his recognised u turn and his use of language towards them of hard right and racism
    Labour have made a godawful mess of this and are rightly going to get booted in the head. I've said that from the start. But the idea that the Tories can capitalise is plainly absurd - they are rightly getting roasted for the brass neck in doing nothing and complaining that Labour are doing nothing.

    Social media can be a terrible talking shop. But it's also the place where trends emerge. In 2025 it's a reality that Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are the main sources of news for large numbers of people - primarily because it's interactive.

    You seem to be suggesting that the Tories are going to benefit. They will not - but Reform will. We probably both agree that is a Bad Thing. But it doesn't make it less of a reality.
    Why is it a bad thing ? Question their motivations all you like but at least they’re on the side of the victims and supporting them. Not turning a blind eye to it or doing nothing like the main parties either nationally or locally. Or even worse, as many Labour politicians did, blame the victims and accuse even people on their own side of racism.

    The fact Reform and others can claim this ground is major parties did nothing aside from wilfully ignore it. Remember Rotherham social services removed a child from a UKIP supporting family over their politics while ignoring the army of rapists of kids in their midst.

    Having Labour or the Tories or them coalition with their ‘oh fuck them, they probably,asked for it anyway’ mindset is not a great thing either
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    I am surprised you rely on social media but we will see

    And they are attacking Starmer for his recognised u turn and his use of language towards them of hard right and racism
    Labour have made a godawful mess of this and are rightly going to get booted in the head. I've said that from the start. But the idea that the Tories can capitalise is plainly absurd - they are rightly getting roasted for the brass neck in doing nothing and complaining that Labour are doing nothing.

    Social media can be a terrible talking shop. But it's also the place where trends emerge. In 2025 it's a reality that Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are the main sources of news for large numbers of people - primarily because it's interactive.

    You seem to be suggesting that the Tories are going to benefit. They will not - but Reform will. We probably both agree that is a Bad Thing. But it doesn't make it less of a reality.
    I didn’t say the conservatives would benefit but certainly they along with Reform deserve a full apology from Starmer and several members of his cabinet for accusing their request as far right and rascist
    Also people like Maggie Oliver and the victims deserve one.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,985
    moonshine said:

    On Israel/Iran. Not sure if it’s been pointed out yet but the TACO meme (Trump always chickens out) looks to have been a pretty clever psyop by the neocon wing of the Republican Party, ultimately bringing about Friday’s actions.

    It can’t be long before this is applied again, in combination with the stark reality that the US is the only nation with the aerial capability to destroy the site in Fordow.

    Trump DOES chicken out, but only if it's a bit difficult.

    If it looks like he can get a free and easy win, he'll authorise a strike on Iran to finish what Israel might not be able to finish themselves.
    By free and easy, I mean, with no American lives being lost. Not that he cares about his fellow citizens or soldiers lives (he doesn't) but losing them makes him look bad and he doesn't like that.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,445

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Merlin Strategy had polling out at the weekend with 'would be prepared to consider' data
    As it stands Reform, Labour, Tory are the three vying for top 2 (34, 31, 28 respectively) LDs and Greens hit 21 and 16 so without a total collapse, its going to be perm 2 from reform, Labour, tory at GE (29?)
    Reading the runes I think we could be in the middle phase of a modal shift in the parties. Tories are going to keep sliding - even replacing Badenoch with Jenrick may not do a lot for them. And Labour are disappointing their own supporters just as much as they are the people who leant them a vote last year.

    Tories could finish 4th behind the LibDems in seats quite easily, and I can see the Greens gaining a lot of ground with the younger / lefter / more progressive voters. Which will be an almighty mess as FPTP won't be able to cope with it...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,583
    Great thread header @Cyclefree.

    Very best wishes on the health front.
  • Battlebus said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is worrying imo.

    "Civil servants handed ‘dangerous’ power to spy on public’s bank records
    Privacy campaigners brand proposals in new fraud Bill a ‘snoopers’ charter’" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/16/civil-servants-handed-dangerous-power-spy-bank-accounts/

    They've always done this with benefit overpayment or debts. Nothing new here but then it is the Telegraph.

    There is a restriction on the amount recovered should it cause an inability to heat/heat/work etc.
    I recently wached a video from a tax specialist on how The Taxman routinely catches out casual ebay/etsy/marketplace etc. sellers. People just assume that selling a few bits you've salvaged from a car boot every month is free money.
    Unfortunately, it aint!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    edited June 16

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Talking of Lowe, he seems to have a good relationship with Jenrick and is more amenable to Tories than any of the others so if the Tories are being smart (as if!) They should be looking at agreeing to give his new party and him a free run in Great Yarmouth in return for him and habib standing spoilers in the rural norfolk seats where taking 3 or 4% off Reform might be the difference between wipeout and holding what they have/taking South Norfolk and SW Norfolk back.
    Its certainly something they should be looking into as a GE approaches locally anyway
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,947

    I just thanked Sandi my online advisor bot at Santander after she activated my new credit card. Am I an idiot?
    (In this specifice matter rather than more generally)

    A friend said not so long ago that after she had received and had photographed her delivery, she called out "love you, bye" to the retreating Amazon driver.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,980
    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,985
    Sean_F said:


    The USA is blatantly and proudly corrupt. Our corruption takes .. other forms.

    A British scandal usually involves the following:

    1. A good chap or chapess, or someone politically influential does something very wrong (eg abusing children, prosecuting people they know to be innocent, ignoring the dangers of a slag heap on the point of wiping out a mining village).

    2. A blind eye is turned.

    3. When a blind eye can no longer be turned, operation cover-up begins. The miscreant is moved sideways, or pensioned off.

    4. When the cover up is exposed, announce a public enquiry.

    5. Years later, the enquiry reports. Lessons have, inevitably been learned. Compensation is promised, but many victims are dead, by this point. In any event, the process of claiming compensation is made hideously complicated.

    6. If a scapegoat is needed, it’s usually one of the small fry.

    I always thought Daenerys’ approach in Game of Thrones - nailing up slave drivers - was really
    rather refreshing by comparison

    I always laugh when enquiries like this come out. Decades if not more later.

    David Cameron apologies for Bloody Sunday or something like that. Worthless. The man was in primary school when the event happened.
    Gordon Brown apologies for servicemen and women being exposed to radiation in the 1950s. Again, worthless. The man was in nappies when it happened.

    Public enquiries need to report within 5 years of the 'event' (not the Mitchell and Webb kind); anything after that is just pointless.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,445
    Taz said:

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    I am surprised you rely on social media but we will see

    And they are attacking Starmer for his recognised u turn and his use of language towards them of hard right and racism
    Labour have made a godawful mess of this and are rightly going to get booted in the head. I've said that from the start. But the idea that the Tories can capitalise is plainly absurd - they are rightly getting roasted for the brass neck in doing nothing and complaining that Labour are doing nothing.

    Social media can be a terrible talking shop. But it's also the place where trends emerge. In 2025 it's a reality that Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are the main sources of news for large numbers of people - primarily because it's interactive.

    You seem to be suggesting that the Tories are going to benefit. They will not - but Reform will. We probably both agree that is a Bad Thing. But it doesn't make it less of a reality.
    Why is it a bad thing ? Question their motivations all you like but at least they’re on the side of the victims and supporting them. Not turning a blind eye to it or doing nothing like the main parties either nationally or locally. Or even worse, as many Labour politicians did, blame the victims and accuse even people on their own side of racism.

    The fact Reform and others can claim this ground is major parties did nothing aside from wilfully ignore it. Remember Rotherham social services removed a child from a UKIP supporting family over their politics while ignoring the army of rapists of kids in their midst.

    Having Labour or the Tories or them coalition with their ‘oh fuck them, they probably,asked for it anyway’ mindset is not a great thing either
    I am sympathetic to the reform agenda, just not the Reform agenda. We need to make some pretty significant structural changes to the country and the positive from the rise of the Nigel is that we're now talking about that.

    Why its a Bad Thing is that Reform UK so far have all of the blame and none of the ideas. These councils they now control, they have gone riding into town thinking they can finally uncover the rampant waste and corruption that must be there. I have no doubt that there will be pockets of this. But the reason why local services are ruined isn't because of DEI officers, its because their funding has been gutted.

    More money is part of the answer, but not the whole answer. Structural changes are needed to how we deliver services and what those services are, but so far Reform think its all about flags and woke. It isn't.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,536

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    This Week was not a flagship political program!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,350

    I just thanked Sandi my online advisor bot at Santander after she activated my new credit card. Am I an idiot?
    (In this specifice matter rather than more generally)

    My wife, when criticising the driving habits of others, says that, "practice makes automatic."

    I would advise to practice being polite to bots, so that politeness becomes automatic, not least because companies will want to obfuscate when you are talking to a bot or a human.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,985
    Battlebus said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is worrying imo.

    "Civil servants handed ‘dangerous’ power to spy on public’s bank records
    Privacy campaigners brand proposals in new fraud Bill a ‘snoopers’ charter’" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/16/civil-servants-handed-dangerous-power-spy-bank-accounts/

    As they are our servants, I assume they will have no problem in telling us, their masters, the details of their own bank accounts.
    If you think about it, any money owed to HMRC is the taxpayers' money so should be recovered. That and Personal Injury claims are two amounts that are almost* always collected.

    HMRC have been known to do deals with large companies where large amounts are due (to their shame IMHO)
    HMRC's approach to deals differs depending on who it is.

    Smaller entity - "We've found £X, settle today and we WON'T come back tomorrow. If we have to come back tomorrow, I guarantee I'll make that X a multitude higher."

    Larger entity - "Look, just pay us something. I know you owe us a billion quid, but let's shake on half a million and we'll call it a win."
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    edited June 16

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Merlin Strategy had polling out at the weekend with 'would be prepared to consider' data
    As it stands Reform, Labour, Tory are the three vying for top 2 (34, 31, 28 respectively) LDs and Greens hit 21 and 16 so without a total collapse, its going to be perm 2 from reform, Labour, tory at GE (29?)
    Reading the runes I think we could be in the middle phase of a modal shift in the parties. Tories are going to keep sliding - even replacing Badenoch with Jenrick may not do a lot for them. And Labour are disappointing their own supporters just as much as they are the people who leant them a vote last year.

    Tories could finish 4th behind the LibDems in seats quite easily, and I can see the Greens gaining a lot of ground with the younger / lefter / more progressive voters. Which will be an almighty mess as FPTP won't be able to cope with it...
    LDs main issue will be holding on to the rather neat voting pattern they got as part of the GTTO movement. I doubt they can retain that efficiency so probably need a national share 2 or 3% higher to stand still (other party movement notwithstanding)
    Id say its slightly less likely than more likely as it stands that Tories finish behind LD on seats and 50/50 that they get 100. Their ceiling at GE 2029 on Back of any recovery is i think about 200. I don't think they slide below 15% in general polling (outliers excepted) and i think they poll something starting with a 2 at the next GE
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,751
    RobD said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    This Week was not a flagship political program!
    No, it was a programme.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,010
    edited June 16
    I think the Conservatives would be wise to keep as quiet as possible about this. Support the inquiry in a considered manner, go for the cross-party approach. It's the only protection they have about an issue that they did nothing substantial about in government and is driving their working class support to Reform.

    It's just too soon after the election.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,908

    Selebian said:


    I'm just waiting for someone to add a menacing soundtrack and voiceover suggesting he's some kind of mafia boss sizing up a location for burying some bodies.

    The first shot looks more like a serial killer being taken out by the police to show them where he buried the bodies.

    I’m starting to feel sorry for him. He looks utterly miserable doing a job which is - now, clearly - far beyond his capabilities. So he’s become painfully aware of his own limitations, which is a sobering moment for anyone

    Plus by all accounts things are not so happy chez Starmer

    He should retire - taking Reeves with him - and let Rayner and Streeting et al, fight for the job. At least Rayner looks hungry for power, and she looks like she could handle the pressure (even if I abhor her politics)

    There is also just a chance Rayner would be better on migration and asylum, because she’s not a human rights lawyer
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,980
    RobD said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    This Week was not a flagship political program!
    BBC Sunday flagship political programme is a much devalued term.
    In any case I don't think anything involving Neil would not be full of its own importance.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,980

    RobD said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    This Week was not a flagship political program!
    No, it was a programme.
    Back with a bang!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,536

    RobD said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    This Week was not a flagship political program!
    No, it was a programme.
    I am ashamed.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,445

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Merlin Strategy had polling out at the weekend with 'would be prepared to consider' data
    As it stands Reform, Labour, Tory are the three vying for top 2 (34, 31, 28 respectively) LDs and Greens hit 21 and 16 so without a total collapse, its going to be perm 2 from reform, Labour, tory at GE (29?)
    Reading the runes I think we could be in the middle phase of a modal shift in the parties. Tories are going to keep sliding - even replacing Badenoch with Jenrick may not do a lot for them. And Labour are disappointing their own supporters just as much as they are the people who leant them a vote last year.

    Tories could finish 4th behind the LibDems in seats quite easily, and I can see the Greens gaining a lot of ground with the younger / lefter / more progressive voters. Which will be an almighty mess as FPTP won't be able to cope with it...
    LDs main issue will be holding on to the rather neat voting pattern they got as part of the GTTO movement. I doubt they can retain that efficiency so probably need a national share 2 or 3% higher to stand still (other party movement notwithstanding)
    Id say its slightly less likely than more likely as it stands that Tories finish behind LD on seats and 50/50 that they get 100. Their ceiling at GE 2029 on Back of any recovery is i think about 200. I don't think they slide below 15% in general polling (outliers excepted) and i think they poll something starting with a 2 at the next GE
    Its all moving pieces of course. My hypothesis is that we continue to take whole slices of votes off the Tories as they continue to cosplay as a bad Reform tribute band, and also continue to pick up votes off the more middle class end of the Labour vote as they get fed up with Labour taking ever more from them in taxes whilst delivering less.

    The fun scenario of the two I posted is the Green Party extending its transformation into Momentum...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,200
    Non fecking investing in sorting out the A303 at Stonehenge though, you wankers.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,550
    Can they please stop with the Change stuff already, it was already old 8 months ago.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,338

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    Stadlen has standards?


  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Merlin Strategy had polling out at the weekend with 'would be prepared to consider' data
    As it stands Reform, Labour, Tory are the three vying for top 2 (34, 31, 28 respectively) LDs and Greens hit 21 and 16 so without a total collapse, its going to be perm 2 from reform, Labour, tory at GE (29?)
    Reading the runes I think we could be in the middle phase of a modal shift in the parties. Tories are going to keep sliding - even replacing Badenoch with Jenrick may not do a lot for them. And Labour are disappointing their own supporters just as much as they are the people who leant them a vote last year.

    Tories could finish 4th behind the LibDems in seats quite easily, and I can see the Greens gaining a lot of ground with the younger / lefter / more progressive voters. Which will be an almighty mess as FPTP won't be able to cope with it...
    LDs main issue will be holding on to the rather neat voting pattern they got as part of the GTTO movement. I doubt they can retain that efficiency so probably need a national share 2 or 3% higher to stand still (other party movement notwithstanding)
    Id say its slightly less likely than more likely as it stands that Tories finish behind LD on seats and 50/50 that they get 100. Their ceiling at GE 2029 on Back of any recovery is i think about 200. I don't think they slide below 15% in general polling (outliers excepted) and i think they poll something starting with a 2 at the next GE
    Its all moving pieces of course. My hypothesis is that we continue to take whole slices of votes off the Tories as they continue to cosplay as a bad Reform tribute band, and also continue to pick up votes off the more middle class end of the Labour vote as they get fed up with Labour taking ever more from them in taxes whilst delivering less.

    The fun scenario of the two I posted is the Green Party extending its transformation into Momentum...
    There are many possibles!
    I think in broadest terms the talk of a Tory extinction event is a bit overdone and the talk of a Labour one a bit underdone. I think consolidation is the LD best bet, they could (you could, sorry!) Shoot for the stars and end up with more votes but 20 fewer seats. GE 34 is the best bet for the three figures breakthrough
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,582

    Gun fights and stabbings in the French migrant camps over the last few days, that will help matters

    Good job their are also lots of doctors and lawyers among their cohort to sort things out. Also it's not that common for women and young children to be involved in serious violence, normally it's gangs of young men.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,908
    carnforth said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    Stadlen has standards?


    Now THAT is *getting owned*
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,712

    Cyclefree's prejudices are showing. It's not just grooming gangs, it's unisex loos.

    Not treating girls with respect is a problem.

    It is a problem that schools can not unilaterally solve, but should be handling, educating young people to treat girls with respect.

    Disrespecting girls by forcing girls and boys to share toilets, against the law, goes against that from the start.

    If you can not see the connection, then you need to be better educated yourself.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,200

    Gun fights and stabbings in the French migrant camps over the last few days, that will help matters

    Good job their are also lots of doctors and lawyers among their cohort to sort things out. Also it's not that common for women and young children to be involved in serious violence, normally it's gangs of young men.
    I thought all the women and children were on the boats?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,667
    edited June 16
    This - https://www.legalfutures.co.uk/latest-news/call-to-expand-remit-of-inquiries-amid-debate-over-too-many-lawyers - by Jason Beer is relevant to this topic.

    Essentially, the system of statutory inquiries does not deliver what the public wants i.e. acation against those responsible.

    There is one big reason for this - we do not investigate problems early enough and take action when they are small and much more easily resolvable.

    So they become bloody great crises over years, the public gets absolutely furious, there is a big inquiry which inevitably takes a long time because the problem has grown and the public then become even more furious because no-one is made accountable in any way at all and nothing is ever learnt.

    If there is one change I would make it would be that - when a small problem arises, bloody well deal with it then. I spent years saying this to my bosses. Eventually when one of the overpaid twits they'd hired lost them $1.5 billion and the cost of remediating that fuck up cost around twice as much (yes, really), they shamefacedly admitted it that I was right and they should have listened to me earlier.

    In the circumstances my "I did tell you so" was remarkably gracious.

    And why don't organisations do this? Because they think of this as a cost, an unnecessary one. To which my reply has always been: "You should see how much bigger the costs of doing nothing are."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,582
    edited June 16
    Prof Peston moaning about having to take a bus while Gordon Brittas gets a helicopter. LOL.

    Peston should consider himself lucky he is somehow still have a job that entitles to him to go on such trips. I wouldn't trust him to drive the bus.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,219
    Great piece @Cyclefree

    (And good luck. It's tough, but hang in there.)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,331

    I just thanked Sandi my online advisor bot at Santander after she activated my new credit card. Am I an idiot?
    (In this specifice matter rather than more generally)

    My wife, when criticising the driving habits of others, says that, "practice makes automatic."

    I would advise to practice being polite to bots, so that politeness becomes automatic, not least because companies will want to obfuscate when you are talking to a bot or a human.
    Doesn't hurt to be polite. You'll be glad you were when the AI hive mind takes over and ranks its favourite humans and puts its least favourite ones in the acid mines.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,219
    carnforth said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    Stadlen has standards?


    That's hilarious.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,219
    Cookie said:

    I just thanked Sandi my online advisor bot at Santander after she activated my new credit card. Am I an idiot?
    (In this specifice matter rather than more generally)

    My wife, when criticising the driving habits of others, says that, "practice makes automatic."

    I would advise to practice being polite to bots, so that politeness becomes automatic, not least because companies will want to obfuscate when you are talking to a bot or a human.
    Doesn't hurt to be polite. You'll be glad you were when the AI hive mind takes over and ranks its favourite humans and puts its least favourite ones in the acid mines.
    I always thank the Nespresso machine. You can't be too careful.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,538

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    I am surprised you rely on social media but we will see

    And they are attacking Starmer for his recognised u turn and his use of language towards them of hard right and racism
    Labour have made a godawful mess of this and are rightly going to get booted in the head. I've said that from the start. But the idea that the Tories can capitalise is plainly absurd - they are rightly getting roasted for the brass neck in doing nothing and complaining that Labour are doing nothing.

    Social media can be a terrible talking shop. But it's also the place where trends emerge. In 2025 it's a reality that Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are the main sources of news for large numbers of people - primarily because it's interactive.

    You seem to be suggesting that the Tories are going to benefit. They will not - but Reform will. We probably both agree that is a Bad Thing. But it doesn't make it less of a reality.
    I didn’t say the conservatives would benefit but certainly they along with Reform deserve a full apology from Starmer and several members of his cabinet for accusing their request as far right and rascist
    Yeah, I bet that's number 1 on Starmer's to do list: send a Moonpig to Farage and Whatshername saying soz.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,582

    Can they please stop with the Change stuff already, it was already old 8 months ago.
    Further and faster.....
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017

    Gun fights and stabbings in the French migrant camps over the last few days, that will help matters

    Good job their are also lots of doctors and lawyers among their cohort to sort things out. Also it's not that common for women and young children to be involved in serious violence, normally it's gangs of young men.
    Well 30% are young men, maybe it was them.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,536
    edited June 16

    Prof Peston moaning about having to take a bus while Gordon Brittas gets a helicopter. LOL.

    Peston should consider himself lucky he is somehow still have a job that entitles to him to go on such trips. I wouldn't trust him to drive the bus.

    Remind me what Starmer said about Sunak on this topic? :D
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Merlin Strategy had polling out at the weekend with 'would be prepared to consider' data
    As it stands Reform, Labour, Tory are the three vying for top 2 (34, 31, 28 respectively) LDs and Greens hit 21 and 16 so without a total collapse, its going to be perm 2 from reform, Labour, tory at GE (29?)
    Reading the runes I think we could be in the middle phase of a modal shift in the parties. Tories are going to keep sliding - even replacing Badenoch with Jenrick may not do a lot for them. And Labour are disappointing their own supporters just as much as they are the people who leant them a vote last year.

    Tories could finish 4th behind the LibDems in seats quite easily, and I can see the Greens gaining a lot of ground with the younger / lefter / more progressive voters. Which will be an almighty mess as FPTP won't be able to cope with it...
    LDs main issue will be holding on to the rather neat voting pattern they got as part of the GTTO movement. I doubt they can retain that efficiency so probably need a national share 2 or 3% higher to stand still (other party movement notwithstanding)
    Id say its slightly less likely than more likely as it stands that Tories finish behind LD on seats and 50/50 that they get 100. Their ceiling at GE 2029 on Back of any recovery is i think about 200. I don't think they slide below 15% in general polling (outliers excepted) and i think they poll something starting with a 2 at the next GE
    Its all moving pieces of course. My hypothesis is that we continue to take whole slices of votes off the Tories as they continue to cosplay as a bad Reform tribute band, and also continue to pick up votes off the more middle class end of the Labour vote as they get fed up with Labour taking ever more from them in taxes whilst delivering less.

    The fun scenario of the two I posted is the Green Party extending its transformation into Momentum...
    I suspect that’s a far more significant leadership election than the media gives it credit for given the lack of attention on it.

    The Greens really seem to be at a crossroads.

    I suspect a move to Corbynism is something your party would welcome as it puts their tanks on labours lawn and removes them from yours.

    Not seen any odds for it either.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,582
    edited June 16
    It's not withou4 logic to include please / thank you with LLMs, firstly it's next token prediction that what we say in conversation and they are best when given to "role play". Role play as a rude f##ker you more likely to less then helpful stuff back.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,379
    Stocky said:

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    The Conservative didn't 'cover it up'. Action was scant through fear of being called racist. In government but not in power etc.
    So that absolves them. OK, next...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,302
    .
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    This Week was not a flagship political program!
    No, it was a programme.
    I am ashamed.
    I wouldn't be.

    The fetishising of exclusively British spellings of English is to misunderstand the essence of the language.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,741

    It's not withou4 logic to include please / thank you with LLMs, firstly it's next token prediction that what we say in conversation and they are best when given to "role play". Role play as a rude f##ker you more likely to less then helpful stuff back.

    I think the problem with Starmer’s LLM generated tweets is that they prompted it to play the role of Gordon Brown.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,104

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    It's actually on all parties. Which is why the smart ones are not pointing fingers at the other parties.

    What happened was this

    1) Grooming gangs existed and evolved.
    2) The system of social care changed from virtual imprisonment to a more open model.
    3) 2) was done, perhaps ironically, because of abuse being rife in the system.
    4) The grooming gangs moved into the space created and expanded.
    5) The social workers looked on and could do nothing. The Police entered the mode of "too many crimes, plus they are willing. Eyes shut, nothing to see here"
    6) knowledge of what was happening percolated up the system. An interesting exercise in the psychology of Not Knowing The Bad Thing That I Don't Want To Know, mainly.
    7) When senior people (politicians and officials) were forced into knowing, they often asked questions. The firm response from the system was Do Nothing. As with the Post Office, enquiries died in a murky out of "advice"
    8) the pyramid of Not Knowing But Knowing spread upwards.
    9) Someone put forward a bill to parliament that would have made reporting the truth a criminal offence. It was defeated.
    10) In the wake of an attempt to use organised sexual abuse as a political weapon, Teressa May announced that all allegations would be investigated.
    11) This provoked horror from The System - they knew what was coming.
    12) The Thing That Can't Be Named On PB happened. Even at this point, some tried to say that This Isn't The Abuse You Should Be Looking For.
    13) The whole thing unravelled.
    14) 7-8 cover just about everyone in government, politicians, civil servants, third sector etc for decades. Many, many people knew.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,307

    Quite upset to come on here today and read @Cyclefree's news. I don’t have the right words, and I can't imagine what that must be like to go through. Devastated to read it.

    Not sure I will comment further.

    I feel the same way - so I'll avoid the subject and ask @Cyclefree the following:

    - In your skirt beef HP recipe you don't say how long to marinate it for.
    - equal parts HP sauce, sherry and red wine for the marinate?
    - agree about the abomination of chocolate sprinkles on coffee but are you equally appalled if it is cinnamon?

    Thanks.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,104

    I just thanked Sandi my online advisor bot at Santander after she activated my new credit card. Am I an idiot?
    (In this specifice matter rather than more generally)

    My wife, when criticising the driving habits of others, says that, "practice makes automatic."

    I would advise to practice being polite to bots, so that politeness becomes automatic, not least because companies will want to obfuscate when you are talking to a bot or a human.
    Also, when the AI Robot Epoxyclips happens, the robots will put you on the "Polite, housetrained, suitable as pet" list.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    edited June 16
    Btw, just on another hot button topic for the govt, the disability punishment beatings. The current turnaround time for PIP reviews is 40 weeks and thats without extensive face to face reviews. Without much investment against her stated purposes of saving the Kendall nonsense will fall apart.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,980
    edited June 16
    Dura_Ace said:

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    I am surprised you rely on social media but we will see

    And they are attacking Starmer for his recognised u turn and his use of language towards them of hard right and racism
    Labour have made a godawful mess of this and are rightly going to get booted in the head. I've said that from the start. But the idea that the Tories can capitalise is plainly absurd - they are rightly getting roasted for the brass neck in doing nothing and complaining that Labour are doing nothing.

    Social media can be a terrible talking shop. But it's also the place where trends emerge. In 2025 it's a reality that Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are the main sources of news for large numbers of people - primarily because it's interactive.

    You seem to be suggesting that the Tories are going to benefit. They will not - but Reform will. We probably both agree that is a Bad Thing. But it doesn't make it less of a reality.
    I didn’t say the conservatives would benefit but certainly they along with Reform deserve a full apology from Starmer and several members of his cabinet for accusing their request as far right and rascist
    Yeah, I bet that's number 1 on Starmer's to do list: send a Moonpig to Farage and Whatshername saying soz.



    Sooorrrreee! You are far right and racist but not because you asked for an enquiry which all right thinking folk now agree is a good thing ❤️🤡🤪💏🏾🍸
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,307

    Stocky said:

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    The Conservative didn't 'cover it up'. Action was scant through fear of being called racist. In government but not in power etc.
    So that absolves them. OK, next...
    It's not party political - see point 8 in the excellent header.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    edited June 16
    Patrick Spencer MP enters a not guilty plea and is due back in crown court July 14
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,671
    edited June 16
    "Hidden in the sterile folds of a new “fraud crackdown” Bill, ostensibly designed to protect the taxpayer from freeloaders and fraudsters, is a profoundly dystopian proposal by the Labour government that would give mid-level civil servants the powers of police detectives. Not in the name of fighting terror, or even serious crime, but to poke around in your bank account. Without a warrant. Without oversight. Without you even knowing."

    https://conservativepost.co.uk/big-brother-is-broke-so-now-hes-coming-for-your-bank-account/
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,667
    Stocky said:

    Quite upset to come on here today and read @Cyclefree's news. I don’t have the right words, and I can't imagine what that must be like to go through. Devastated to read it.

    Not sure I will comment further.

    I feel the same way - so I'll avoid the subject and ask @Cyclefree the following:

    - In your skirt beef HP recipe you don't say how long to marinate it for.
    - equal parts HP sauce, sherry and red wine for the marinate?
    - agree about the abomination of chocolate sprinkles on coffee but are you equally appalled if it is cinnamon?

    Thanks.

    - marinate for as long as you want but I normally marinate in the morning or early afternoon if having it for dinner
    - A matter of taste and what you have available. I tend to do more of the red wine and HP sauce and only a little sherry.
    - I don't like anything on my coffee other than milk. I don't like sweet things. But also it's unnecessary because a good coffee - either black or with some milk - is delicious just as it is.

    Anyway I am sitting in my local coffee shop which is opposite the butcher's and will pop in shortly to buy meat for dinner. It may well be skirt as it is so tasty and such good value. If you're very lucky I'll even post a photo of what it looks like once cooked.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017
    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,445
    Taz said:

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Merlin Strategy had polling out at the weekend with 'would be prepared to consider' data
    As it stands Reform, Labour, Tory are the three vying for top 2 (34, 31, 28 respectively) LDs and Greens hit 21 and 16 so without a total collapse, its going to be perm 2 from reform, Labour, tory at GE (29?)
    Reading the runes I think we could be in the middle phase of a modal shift in the parties. Tories are going to keep sliding - even replacing Badenoch with Jenrick may not do a lot for them. And Labour are disappointing their own supporters just as much as they are the people who leant them a vote last year.

    Tories could finish 4th behind the LibDems in seats quite easily, and I can see the Greens gaining a lot of ground with the younger / lefter / more progressive voters. Which will be an almighty mess as FPTP won't be able to cope with it...
    LDs main issue will be holding on to the rather neat voting pattern they got as part of the GTTO movement. I doubt they can retain that efficiency so probably need a national share 2 or 3% higher to stand still (other party movement notwithstanding)
    Id say its slightly less likely than more likely as it stands that Tories finish behind LD on seats and 50/50 that they get 100. Their ceiling at GE 2029 on Back of any recovery is i think about 200. I don't think they slide below 15% in general polling (outliers excepted) and i think they poll something starting with a 2 at the next GE
    Its all moving pieces of course. My hypothesis is that we continue to take whole slices of votes off the Tories as they continue to cosplay as a bad Reform tribute band, and also continue to pick up votes off the more middle class end of the Labour vote as they get fed up with Labour taking ever more from them in taxes whilst delivering less.

    The fun scenario of the two I posted is the Green Party extending its transformation into Momentum...
    I suspect that’s a far more significant leadership election than the media gives it credit for given the lack of attention on it.

    The Greens really seem to be at a crossroads.

    I suspect a move to Corbynism is something your party would welcome as it puts their tanks on labours lawn and removes them from yours.

    Not seen any odds for it either.
    I know quote a few angry Momentum people who joined the Greens, with a mission to Smash Labour. When you combine that with the militant Islamists who have popped up in their ranks - and those sat as independent MPs - there is a decent opportunity for the Greens to weaponise the tree-hugging hippy crap and turn it into the angry voice of the disaffected.

    Yes, it would be marvellous for the LibDems, but I feel like the English Greens need a mission like the Scottish Greens have.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,302
    I don't think anyone mentioned it ?

    So shout out to Robert Kubica for winning Le Mans this weekend.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,671
    edited June 16
    Battlebus said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is worrying imo.

    "Civil servants handed ‘dangerous’ power to spy on public’s bank records
    Privacy campaigners brand proposals in new fraud Bill a ‘snoopers’ charter’" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/16/civil-servants-handed-dangerous-power-spy-bank-accounts/

    They've always done this with benefit overpayment or debts. Nothing new here but then it is the Telegraph.

    There is a restriction on the amount recovered should it cause an inability to heat/eat/work etc.
    You think this is a good idea? It sounds dystopian to me.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,712
    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    The bare minimum of any "deal" should be the dismantlement of all nuclear power from Iran, the end of all nuclear operations in Iran and the transfer of all uranium (enriched or otherwise) out of Iran.

    The maximum should be the above plus regime change.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,632
    edited June 16
    Nigelb said:

    .

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    This Week was not a flagship political program!
    No, it was a programme.
    I am ashamed.
    I wouldn't be.

    The fetishising of exclusively British spellings of English is to misunderstand the essence of the language.
    It is also sadly a battle lost decades ago, probably about the same time it became acceptable for shop assistants to bid their customers to "Have a nice day", although rather before people in polite society started using "passed" as a euphemism for "died" and "he was like" for "he said".

    It is a penalty we pay for being the world's most best imperialists - our former colony has surpassed us, and we have to suffer constant linguistic humiliation as a rest.

    Still, at least they took Piers Morgan and Prince Harry off our hands I suppose.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,764

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    There were PBers saying similar things over a decade ago.

    Meanwhile the government in which Chris Philp was a part, including being Minister of State for crime and policing, did nothing.

    Even by the standards of politicians Chris Philp is a contemptible individual.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,204
    moonshine said:

    On Israel/Iran. Not sure if it’s been pointed out yet but the TACO meme (Trump always chickens out) looks to have been a pretty clever psyop by the neocon wing of the Republican Party, ultimately bringing about Friday’s actions.

    It can’t be long before this is applied again, in combination with the stark reality that the US is the only nation with the aerial capability to destroy the site in Fordow.

    Surely destroying Fordow is the quickest way to bring the conflict to an end.

    Therefore in the interests of peace…
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,200

    Dura_Ace said:

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    The conservatives instituted the Jay Enquiry and to accuse them of cover ups is a bit far

    However, I accept more should have been done but Starmer's problem is he and other cabinet ministers accused the opposition of pandering to the far right and even rascism, and as a result is highly compromised and must be regretting he didn't take the initiative and order the enquiry immediately

    Starmer reacts to events, and changes his mind making so many u turns his credibilty is undermined by nobody but himself
    You miss the point. Philip states there have been cover-ups.
    His party was in government whilst those cover-ups were going on
    His party notoriously refused to implement any of the report findings
    If there have been cover-ups, the Conservatives presided over them. And now want credit for doing so.
    I do not agree with you on this and certainly Starmer only has himself to blame

    As Sam Coates on Sky said the problem is that most of these crimes were in labour controlled councils and of course they are in government now
    You don't agree that the Tories were in government when this cover-up took place? You don't agree that they refused to implement *any* of the recommendations of their own enquiry?

    There's only one party who is going to do well off this and that's reform, not the Tories. There is an *awful* lot of anger out there and I have been reading a fair bit of it. People go absolutely off it when Tories try to direct blame at Labour.

    This is only going to damage the Tories further. What it does to Labour (which will be bad as they have done this absurd performative no no no no no no no yes) doesn't really matter if you are a Tory, as these is going to absolutely immolate them.
    If you think the conservatives are going to be blamed for this then you are not real

    I know you have an issue [to be polite] with the conservatives but this is now on labour
    Read the room. By which I mean the public. The Conservatives *have been* blamed, continue *to be blamed* and will continue to be so. Because so much of this is on them. Labour's handling has been hilariously bad but they have been on office for less than a year.

    Sorry Big G, your lot have absolutely sunk themselves over this. Had they been contrite then maybe a bit of credit. But they're pratting around like they are blameless. And people out there on Facebook and especially Twitter aren't having it.
    I am surprised you rely on social media but we will see

    And they are attacking Starmer for his recognised u turn and his use of language towards them of hard right and racism
    Labour have made a godawful mess of this and are rightly going to get booted in the head. I've said that from the start. But the idea that the Tories can capitalise is plainly absurd - they are rightly getting roasted for the brass neck in doing nothing and complaining that Labour are doing nothing.

    Social media can be a terrible talking shop. But it's also the place where trends emerge. In 2025 it's a reality that Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are the main sources of news for large numbers of people - primarily because it's interactive.

    You seem to be suggesting that the Tories are going to benefit. They will not - but Reform will. We probably both agree that is a Bad Thing. But it doesn't make it less of a reality.
    I didn’t say the conservatives would benefit but certainly they along with Reform deserve a full apology from Starmer and several members of his cabinet for accusing their request as far right and rascist
    Yeah, I bet that's number 1 on Starmer's to do list: send a Moonpig to Farage and Whatshername saying soz.



    Sooorrrreee! You are far right and racist but not because you asked for an enquiry which all right thinking folk now agree is a good thing ❤️🤡🤪💏🏾🍸
    Father Jack did it best

    https://bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=father+jack+sorry+clip&mid=1113C74305D678E216011113C74305D678E21601&FORM=VIRE
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,671
    P Prune have closed down new posts on the discussion thread on the Air India crash. You can still view it though.

    https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/666472-plane-crash-near-ahmedabad-87.html
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,712

    9) Someone put forward a bill to parliament that would have made reporting the truth a criminal offence. It was defeated.

    First I've heard of this, please expand upon this point.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    edited June 16
    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,200

    Chris Philip announces that "hundreds" of people could be going to jail because of the "cover-up" on Grooming gangs.

    Question - why did Chris Philip and his government cover this up?

    Do the Tories really think there are political points they can score here? Really?

    There were PBers saying similar things over a decade ago.

    Meanwhile the government in which Chris Philp was a part, including being Minister of State for crime and policing, did nothing.

    Even by the standards of politicians Chris Philp is a contemptible individual.
    I don't think its quite true to say that the police did nothing under the Tories - how many cases of this kind of grooming have been completed now? Rochdale, Telford, Oxford etc - and most before the glorious revolution of 2024.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,712

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Israel have:

    a) crossed the Rubicon
    b) total air superiority
    c) diminished Iran's proxies.

    There will never be a better opportunity than this to finish the job.

    It would be insanity not to do so.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,671
    One of the most shocking things I've read recently.

    "'In my country, murder is normal': Man who is in jail for his niece's honour killing sues ITV for accusing him of ordering her rape"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14751849/murder-man-jail-nieces-honour-killing-sues-ITV-rape.html
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Israel have:

    a) crossed the Rubicon
    b) total air superiority
    c) diminished Iran's proxies.

    There will never be a better opportunity than this to finish the job.

    It would be insanity not to do so.
    And if Iran are trying to save the regime israel will say 'thanks for the info, onwards'
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,200
    Andy_JS said:

    One of the most shocking things I've read recently.

    "'In my country, murder is normal': Man who is in jail for his niece's honour killing sues ITV for accusing him of ordering her rape"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14751849/murder-man-jail-nieces-honour-killing-sues-ITV-rape.html

    My country being Iraq? Well tough shit old chum, you choose to come to the UK.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Which is why they may want a deal.

    Anyway here’s the report. https://iranwire.com/en/news/142210-exclusive-tehran-ready-to-abandon-enrichment-but-needs-a-face-saving-exit/
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,122
    Leon said:

    Why do we have two words for this

    Enquiry and Inquiry

    It’s always slightly annoyed me and always slightly confused me. And people seem to use them interchangeably

    I suspect it's historical. Inquiries, which have been going since at least the the 17th century, and since then just as unlikely to lead to actual change (never their purpose) - these have kept their original spelling while UK usage has switched to enquiry. Just a guess ...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Which is why they may want a deal.

    Anyway here’s the report. https://iranwire.com/en/news/142210-exclusive-tehran-ready-to-abandon-enrichment-but-needs-a-face-saving-exit/
    They wont get one, unless the regime ends
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Israel have:

    a) crossed the Rubicon
    b) total air superiority
    c) diminished Iran's proxies.

    There will never be a better opportunity than this to finish the job.

    It would be insanity not to do so.
    And if Iran are trying to save the regime israel will say 'thanks for the info, onwards'
    What’s also interesting is, so far, we’ve not had a massive spike in Oil prices. Up to $130 was forecast. What does the market know ?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Israel have:

    a) crossed the Rubicon
    b) total air superiority
    c) diminished Iran's proxies.

    There will never be a better opportunity than this to finish the job.

    It would be insanity not to do so.
    And if Iran are trying to save the regime israel will say 'thanks for the info, onwards'
    What’s also interesting is, so far, we’ve not had a massive spike in Oil prices. Up to $130 was forecast. What does the market know ?
    Israel hasnt targetted the gulf yet and Hormuz is still open
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,204

    IanB2 said:

    moonshine said:

    Been only dipping in and out of here in 2025. Sorry to hear of CF’s health struggles, the site is always a better place for your common sense and civility!

    On the “grooming scandal”. Despite all the scorn, just goes to show that Elon Musk has cuter political instincts than our PM, certainly in terms of basic thrust if not always the detail.

    I am scratching my head at the Labour Party these days wondering what on Earth it’s actually for. A champion of the British working class it is certainly not. In 2024 they benefited from being the only viable vehicle for voters that wanted to kick out the incumbent.

    In government, there is only so much bandwidth to get things done - not just the time and attention of politicians, but the resource of officials and the wider participariat for non-executive roles in public life. Part of the explanation is likely that they're already aware of being criticised for not delivering much improvement or change, and are resistant to new distractions. No excuse, obvs.
    I wouldn't for one moment condone the action of vile individuals who have gone to jail and others that should have gone to jail for raping and otherwise sexually exploiting young girls, a significant number of whom are under age. However the focus by the likes of Farage's Reform and Jenrick is to widen the accusation against an entire, currently vilified cohort of society. It's a cheap political win.

    The extrapolation that all Muslim males are predatory isn't applied to all Catholic Priests being deviants because a not insignificant number have been caught "fiddling".
    What proportion within a particular demographic need to be involved before its accepted that that demographic has a specific problem ?

    Notice how the label of 'Asian' grooming gangs has narrowed first to 'Muslim' grooming gangs and now increasingly to 'Pakistani' grooming gangs.

    Why is this crime far more prevalent in one demographic than it is in outwardly similar demographics ?
    I recall reading a long time ago - so may be mistaken - that it wasn’t just “Pakistani” but there is a regional aspect as well (Mirpur?) - so possibly there is a specific cultural aspect
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Israel have:

    a) crossed the Rubicon
    b) total air superiority
    c) diminished Iran's proxies.

    There will never be a better opportunity than this to finish the job.

    It would be insanity not to do so.
    And if Iran are trying to save the regime israel will say 'thanks for the info, onwards'
    What’s also interesting is, so far, we’ve not had a massive spike in Oil prices. Up to $130 was forecast. What does the market know ?
    Israel hasnt targetted the gulf yet and Hormuz is still open
    Where in the Gulf will Israel target ? They’ve attacked Iranian refineries and took some production out.

    Anyway, pricing reacts to sentiment and expectations.

    Buy on rumour sell on fact. As they say.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,985
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Bit of pwnage of the Brillo going on.

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    12h
    Why does the BBC have some celebrity chef opine on the geopolitics of the Middle East on its Sunday flagship political programme? Has it had enough of experts?

    Matthew Stadlen
    @MatthewStadlen
    Didn’t we spend years asking celebrities to talk about politics on This Week, Andrew?

    https://x.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1934501803950743685

    This Week was not a flagship political program!
    No, it was a programme.
    I am ashamed.
    So you should be.

    I am asking for a public enquiry to be launched to confirm your claim to be British.

    I expect it will report sometime in the final quarter of this century and will lay the blame entirely at your feet. The Prime Minister at the time will apologise for you.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,033

    The latest absurd developments over this issue just adds yet more speed to the Reform bulldozer. I read this morning they are struggling to get donors to actually pay them (is governance an issue I wonder...) - it won't matter.

    The country feels broken at a pretty fundamental level, with record taxes, crumbling services and an establishment that seems happiest blaming everyone but themselves for their egregious failings. LabCon are done - model what happens when both drop out of the top 2...

    Someone else will need to come along first to take second place
    First: Reform UK (Farage). Second: UK Reform (Lowe)

    joking. hopefully
    Merlin Strategy had polling out at the weekend with 'would be prepared to consider' data
    As it stands Reform, Labour, Tory are the three vying for top 2 (34, 31, 28 respectively) LDs and Greens hit 21 and 16 so without a total collapse, its going to be perm 2 from reform, Labour, tory at GE (29?)
    Reading the runes I think we could be in the middle phase of a modal shift in the parties. Tories are going to keep sliding - even replacing Badenoch with Jenrick may not do a lot for them. And Labour are disappointing their own supporters just as much as they are the people who leant them a vote last year.

    Tories could finish 4th behind the LibDems in seats quite easily, and I can see the Greens gaining a lot of ground with the younger / lefter / more progressive voters. Which will be an almighty mess as FPTP won't be able to cope with it...
    I think you're probably right about Jenrick replacing Badenoch not much making much difference.

    The Tories really need to play to their strength which is, despite everything (Boris/Truss), they are still in the minds of many voters a realistic party of Government, in a way in which Reform and Farage simply are not.

    But to take advantage of that, they really need a leadership team who you can imagine in No 10 and No 11. The obvious solution, when they ditch Kemi, is a Cleverly/Hunt ticket. (I was very impressed by the way Hunt held his seat - he really should have been toast, which says something about how effective he can be). All in all, that could make for a very effective contrast with the Farage gang, and help the Tories recover some of their traditional voters. Woudn't win back the Red Wall but could work in the Home Counties etc.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    edited June 16
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Israel have:

    a) crossed the Rubicon
    b) total air superiority
    c) diminished Iran's proxies.

    There will never be a better opportunity than this to finish the job.

    It would be insanity not to do so.
    And if Iran are trying to save the regime israel will say 'thanks for the info, onwards'
    What’s also interesting is, so far, we’ve not had a massive spike in Oil prices. Up to $130 was forecast. What does the market know ?
    Israel hasnt targetted the gulf yet and Hormuz is still open
    Where in the Gulf will Israel target ? They’ve attacked Iranian refineries and took some production out.

    Anyway, pricing reacts to sentiment and expectations.

    Buy on rumour sell on fact. As they say.
    Ok, they havent flattened the gulf oil industry and forced the iranians to close Hormuz which is what would see $150 plus.
    The oil market has bedn very weird generally, lets see what the week brings
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,589
    edited June 16

    Andy_JS said:

    One of the most shocking things I've read recently.

    "'In my country, murder is normal': Man who is in jail for his niece's honour killing sues ITV for accusing him of ordering her rape"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14751849/murder-man-jail-nieces-honour-killing-sues-ITV-rape.html

    My country being Iraq? Well tough shit old chum, you choose to come to the UK.
    Who is paying the court costs for this nonsense ?

    It's us, isn't it. No wonder we're broke.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017
    Another Iranian oil refinery ablaze.

    https://x.com/aliostad/status/1934504612507295922?s=61
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,947
    Andy_JS said:

    P Prune have closed down new posts on the discussion thread on the Air India crash. You can still view it though.

    https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/666472-plane-crash-near-ahmedabad-87.html

    They have been going round in circles (RAT in, RAT out, why the mayday call, flaps up, gear up confusion) for dozens of pages. Everyone now wants to wait for the flight recorder.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,149

    Patrick Spencer MP enters a not guilty plea and is due back in crown court July 14

    "The Crown Prosecution Service reminds all concerned that criminal proceedings against this defendant are now active and that he has the right to a fair trial.

    "It is extremely important that there should be no reporting, commentary or sharing of information online which could in any way prejudice these proceedings."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/35421406/tory-mp-patrick-spencer-court-sexual-assault/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,589
    Taz said:

    Another Iranian oil refinery ablaze.

    https://x.com/aliostad/status/1934504612507295922?s=61

    Looks like a lot of CO2 emissions between this and Iran's strike on Haifa
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,168
    DavidL said:

    So the conclusions of the Inquiry:

    1 a depressingly large number of children are sexually and physically abused in this country.
    2 the risks of this happening are greater if you don’t live in a supportive home environment but nothing can eliminate the risk as students of private schools occasionally learn.

    3 people pretend to care about those in care but all too often don’t.

    4 there is an incredibly strong tendency to blame the victims of such offences both because it is an excuse for gross incompetence and indifference.

    5 misogynistic attitudes, contempt for WWC and others, cultural attitudes to non believers and other factors can all contribute to these tendencies but none of them are a necessary adjunct to them. Such evil is pervasive.
    6 we need to learn to care more as a society. Good luck with that!

    Ps, please send the cheque to me direct.

    What we won't hear.

    1. The vast majority of sexual and physical abuse takes place within families yet the usual people will bang on for ever more parental rights.
    2.Children's rights to be placed equal to those of adults.That will continue to be laughably woke.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,017
    edited June 16

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Israel have:

    a) crossed the Rubicon
    b) total air superiority
    c) diminished Iran's proxies.

    There will never be a better opportunity than this to finish the job.

    It would be insanity not to do so.
    And if Iran are trying to save the regime israel will say 'thanks for the info, onwards'
    What’s also interesting is, so far, we’ve not had a massive spike in Oil prices. Up to $130 was forecast. What does the market know ?
    Israel hasnt targetted the gulf yet and Hormuz is still open
    Where in the Gulf will Israel target ? They’ve attacked Iranian refineries and took some production out.

    Anyway, pricing reacts to sentiment and expectations.

    Buy on rumour sell on fact. As they say.
    Ok, they havent flattened the gulf oil industry and forced the iranians to close Hormuz which is what would see $150 plus.
    The oil market has bedn very weird generally, lets see what the week brings
    Why would Israel flatten the gulf oil industry ? Their beef is with Iran.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,563
    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    So the conclusions of the Inquiry:

    1 a depressingly large number of children are sexually and physically abused in this country.
    2 the risks of this happening are greater if you don’t live in a supportive home environment but nothing can eliminate the risk as students of private schools occasionally learn.

    3 people pretend to care about those in care but all too often don’t.

    4 there is an incredibly strong tendency to blame the victims of such offences both because it is an excuse for gross incompetence and indifference.

    5 misogynistic attitudes, contempt for WWC and others, cultural attitudes to non believers and other factors can all contribute to these tendencies but none of them are a necessary adjunct to them. Such evil is pervasive.
    6 we need to learn to care more as a society. Good luck with that!

    Ps, please send the cheque to me direct.

    What we won't hear.

    1. The vast majority of sexual and physical abuse takes place within families yet the usual people will bang on for ever more parental rights.
    2.Children's rights to be placed equal to those of adults.That will continue to be laughably woke.
    I don’t have the time to research this but my understanding is that children in care are statistically much more likely to be abused. Which doesn’t make point 1 wrong because the vast majority of children are within families.

    We have just introduced the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into Scots law. I think England has done the same. This will materially change the way young offenders are dealt with.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,545
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Could we be on the verge of a deal with Iran.

    Reported by Iranwire to be prepared to abandon enrichment but need a face saving deal

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1934576252889014528?s=61

    Large pinch of salt here. Its a single annonymous diplomat.
    And israel want to finish the job now
    Israel have:

    a) crossed the Rubicon
    b) total air superiority
    c) diminished Iran's proxies.

    There will never be a better opportunity than this to finish the job.

    It would be insanity not to do so.
    And if Iran are trying to save the regime israel will say 'thanks for the info, onwards'
    What’s also interesting is, so far, we’ve not had a massive spike in Oil prices. Up to $130 was forecast. What does the market know ?
    Israel hasnt targetted the gulf yet and Hormuz is still open
    Where in the Gulf will Israel target ? They’ve attacked Iranian refineries and took some production out.

    Anyway, pricing reacts to sentiment and expectations.

    Buy on rumour sell on fact. As they say.
    Ok, they havent flattened the gulf oil industry and forced the iranians to close Hormuz which is what would see $150 plus.
    The oil market has bedn very weird generally, lets see what the week brings
    Why would Israel flatten the gulf oil industry ? Their beef is with Iran.
    I mean the Iranian assets in the Gulf
This discussion has been closed.