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Labour are the favourites to win the most seats at the next general election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,509
edited 6:12AM in General
Labour are the favourites to win the most seats at the next general election – politicalbetting.com

I suspect what is driving this is that there’s an expectation there will be swingback to the government by the time of the next election and that most of the centre-left will coalesce behind Labour to stop Farage becoming Prime Minister.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,531
    Yes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,877
    The interesting question is who gets the second largest number of seats?

    If it's Reform then it's hard to see a Tory comeback.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,866
    Besides- somebody has to win, even if that somebody is a nobody.

    The Conservative party is still too moribund, Reform are too Marmite (Farage loses every head-to-head) and the Lib Dems are too localised in their support.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,904
    4 years is a long time. I think the Conservatives should be at least a 1/4 chance.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,477
    1979, 1997, 2010, 2024. These changes don’t come around often. I expect a much reduced Labour majority good for 5 more years.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,895
    Eabhal said:

    4 years is a long time. I think the Conservatives should be at least a 1/4 chance.

    Not while the part of the vote that the BBC always seems to manage to find on a Wednesday morning at Dudley Market is all in for Nigel.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,477

    Eabhal said:

    4 years is a long time. I think the Conservatives should be at least a 1/4 chance.

    Not while the part of the vote that the BBC always seems to manage to find on a Wednesday morning at Dudley Market is all in for Nigel.
    Farage is currently 61. He doesn’t seem to be ageing well to me. The next election is probably his last.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,895
    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,622
    There’s been a lot of criticism of Elon Musk lately, but there are worse people than Elon Musk.

    Like his dad: https://kyivindependent.com/elon-musks-father-attends-pro-kremlin-event-in-russia-hosted-by-far-right-ideologue/
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,895
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    4 years is a long time. I think the Conservatives should be at least a 1/4 chance.

    Not while the part of the vote that the BBC always seems to manage to find on a Wednesday morning at Dudley Market is all in for Nigel.
    Farage is currently 61. He doesn’t seem to be ageing well to me. The next election is probably his last.
    There’s always orange anti-ageing cream.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360
    edited 6:41AM
    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,866
    DavidL said:

    1979, 1997, 2010, 2024. These changes don’t come around often. I expect a much reduced Labour majority good for 5 more years.

    I tend to agree. And if it's a 2033/4 election that is the competitive one, the strategic questions becomes a bit clearer.

    For Reform, it's how to hand the baton on to someone who isn't Nigel. None of the Farage vehicles have managed that before.

    Linked to that, for the Conservatives, the question is how to remain relevant until Farage leaves the stage, because that's their biggest opportunity. That in turn means that their leader (and the next one) need to recognise that their role is the Michael Howard one- ensuring that there is a party to hand over to a leader who can say "that mess was nothing to do with me".

    For the Lib Dems, there is some more Nice Britain to occupy, but that's not enough to get to second place. (Wonder what that ceiling is?) So what can they coherently add to that as their base?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,767
    FAFO in California. Oops !!

    Needs Steve Inmans commentary

    https://x.com/langmanvince/status/1931710059664343082?s=61
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360

    ...

    British Council ‘may have to to close in 60 countries’ amid cuts to aid budget
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/08/british-council-spending-plans-may-close-in-60-countries

    So much for Britain filling the soft power gap left by America.

    One of the biggest 'cuts to the aid budget' we've seen implemented in recent years is the fact that the aid budget is used to pay for asylum accommodation in the UK. If one assumes the money was previously being spent helping the genuinely needy, that re-allocation will have caused the abandonment of many of the world's most vulnerable people, in favour of hotels for fighting age men. We haven't heard a peep about it from PB's defenders of the aid budget though strangely enough.
    “Fighting age men” is such a tedious dogwhistle. You don’t describe men of a certain age that way in any other context.

    We don’t say, “Fighting age men elected as Reform councillors are now in charge of children’s and adult services at Leicestershire County Council”, or “England’s football team of fighting age men beat Andorra 1-0”.
    How about "fighting age men banned from exiting Ukraine", at the start of the war?

    I'd be curious the relevant proportions of fighting age men, or women, or children in the refugee statistics from Ukraine or those travelling via boat.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 985

    Besides- somebody has to win, even if that somebody is a nobody.

    The Conservative party is still too moribund, Reform are too Marmite (Farage loses every head-to-head) and the Lib Dems are too localised in their support.

    One of my favourite political satires is a novel called 'The Right Honourable Chimpanzee' by Georgi Markov (of poison umbrella fame). The Prime Minister is kidnapped and replaced my a talking Chimp who happens to look a bit like him. Everyone in the Commons knows he's a chimp but as every political party thinks it would lose seats in a general election, it's in no-one's interest to point it out.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,866
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    4 years is a long time. I think the Conservatives should be at least a 1/4 chance.

    Not while the part of the vote that the BBC always seems to manage to find on a Wednesday morning at Dudley Market is all in for Nigel.
    Farage is currently 61. He doesn’t seem to be ageing well to me. The next election is probably his last.
    And even that strains credulity a bit. By 2029, he will be offering himself as PM at the age where he will soon have to declare a personal interest in the Winter Fuel Payment policy.

    This is not America.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,129

    There’s been a lot of criticism of Elon Musk lately, but there are worse people than Elon Musk.

    Like his dad: https://kyivindependent.com/elon-musks-father-attends-pro-kremlin-event-in-russia-hosted-by-far-right-ideologue/

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    He's gone a bit early for the midterms, is this not to distract from Musk and get his I'll through?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 909
    Foxy said:

    The interesting question is who gets the second largest number of seats?

    If it's Reform then it's hard to see a Tory comeback.

    Is the current love-in of the BBC and Reform, just a way of ensuring the Conservatives decline into obscurity. Reform will do their own self-immolation so Labour as largest party? More than likely.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360
    BBC report with "fighting age men" in the headline, 2024: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68880085

    BBC report from 2022: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60645126
    Women with children wept with the stress, clutching their passports and family birth certificates in one hand and their children in the other. Outside the station, there were tearful goodbyes as fighting-age men, banned from leaving Ukraine, stopped and let their families go, unsure if they would ever see them again.

    Curious what "tedious dogwhistle" the BBC was blowing here.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,625
    I don't think people have fully assimilated the scale of Labour's forthcoming defeat. We see all manner of straw-clutching here - "swingback", "the economy will pick up", "if they stop the boats", "tactical voting" etc. It is laughable.

    I think the Tories have more long term viability than Labour do - they're not in the hotseat, and politics is shifting rightward.

    There are also considerable signs that within Labour they're preparing to lose. The bigging up of Reform is crazy for them viewed as anything other than a losing rearguard strategy aimed at electoral survival via a left-wing panic vote.

    Reform implosion is another great hope - well they are imploding, practically weekly it seems. But they are imploding forward, and it barely registers as a stutter.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,622

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The IDF previously showed footage of tunnels they claimed were under the hospital, and then had to concede were not under the hospital but where elsewhere: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If they are right about something this time, that is a good thing, but their reliability remains suspect while they keep making false claims.

    As for human shields, the IDF have been forcing Palestinian civilians to be human shields for them: https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/12/middleeast/israel-gaza-human-shields-investigation-intl/index.html , https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2025-05-24/ty-article/israeli-use-of-human-shields-in-gaza-was-systemic-soldiers-and-former-detainees-tell-ap/00000197-01e6-dc94-ab97-0fee1dd40000
  • vikvik Posts: 480

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,721

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,625

    I don't think people have fully assimilated the scale of Labour's forthcoming defeat. We see all manner of straw-clutching here - "swingback", "the economy will pick up", "if they stop the boats", "tactical voting" etc. It is laughable.

    I think the Tories have more long term viability than Labour do - they're not in the hotseat, and politics is shifting rightward.

    There are also considerable signs that within Labour they're preparing to lose. The bigging up of Reform is crazy for them viewed as anything other than a losing rearguard strategy aimed at electoral survival via a left-wing panic vote.

    Reform implosion is another great hope - well they are imploding, practically weekly it seems. But they are imploding forward, and it barely registers as a stutter.

    Oh, and how could I forget that favourite 'Farage is old and unhealthy'. I think we can file that safely under 'Putin is due to be carried away by cancer any second'.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The IDF previously showed footage of tunnels they claimed were under the hospital, and then had to concede were not under the hospital but where elsewhere: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If they are right about something this time, that is a good thing, but their reliability remains suspect while they keep making false claims.

    As for human shields, the IDF have been forcing Palestinian civilians to be human shields for them: https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/12/middleeast/israel-gaza-human-shields-investigation-intl/index.html , https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2025-05-24/ty-article/israeli-use-of-human-shields-in-gaza-was-systemic-soldiers-and-former-detainees-tell-ap/00000197-01e6-dc94-ab97-0fee1dd40000
    The US Constitution gives absolutely no proviso for cancelling elections.

    They proceeded even during both World Wars and the far more bloody (for them) Civil War.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,622

    BBC report with "fighting age men" in the headline, 2024: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68880085

    BBC report from 2022: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60645126
    Women with children wept with the stress, clutching their passports and family birth certificates in one hand and their children in the other. Outside the station, there were tearful goodbyes as fighting-age men, banned from leaving Ukraine, stopped and let their families go, unsure if they would ever see them again.

    Curious what "tedious dogwhistle" the BBC was blowing here.

    In that context, where there is conscription in the country, that the men are of fighting age is of direct relevance to the story. When discussing people outwith a direct discussion of conscription, calling them “fighting age” is irrelevant.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360

    BBC report with "fighting age men" in the headline, 2024: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68880085

    BBC report from 2022: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60645126
    Women with children wept with the stress, clutching their passports and family birth certificates in one hand and their children in the other. Outside the station, there were tearful goodbyes as fighting-age men, banned from leaving Ukraine, stopped and let their families go, unsure if they would ever see them again.

    Curious what "tedious dogwhistle" the BBC was blowing here.

    In that context, where there is conscription in the country, that the men are of fighting age is of direct relevance to the story. When discussing people outwith a direct discussion of conscription, calling them “fighting age” is irrelevant.
    In the context of asylum it is entirely relevant.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,721

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The IDF previously showed footage of tunnels they claimed were under the hospital, and then had to concede were not under the hospital but where elsewhere: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If they are right about something this time, that is a good thing, but their reliability remains suspect while they keep making false claims.

    As for human shields, the IDF have been forcing Palestinian civilians to be human shields for them: https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/12/middleeast/israel-gaza-human-shields-investigation-intl/index.html , https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2025-05-24/ty-article/israeli-use-of-human-shields-in-gaza-was-systemic-soldiers-and-former-detainees-tell-ap/00000197-01e6-dc94-ab97-0fee1dd40000
    The "elsewhere" was 150-200 metres away. That is, to all intents and purposes, adjacent. "Elsewhere" makes it sound like they were miles away.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 909
    vik said:

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
    Pic of the day from Turkey. How proto-dictators associate themselves with historic figures. How long before Trump adopts the same approach?


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,877

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The IDF previously showed footage of tunnels they claimed were under the hospital, and then had to concede were not under the hospital but where elsewhere: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If they are right about something this time, that is a good thing, but their reliability remains suspect while they keep making false claims.

    As for human shields, the IDF have been forcing Palestinian civilians to be human shields for them: https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/12/middleeast/israel-gaza-human-shields-investigation-intl/index.html , https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2025-05-24/ty-article/israeli-use-of-human-shields-in-gaza-was-systemic-soldiers-and-former-detainees-tell-ap/00000197-01e6-dc94-ab97-0fee1dd40000
    Hamas have a nasty ideology, but it is pretty impressive that they are still fighting after 20 months of constant blockade, surveillance and bombardment. That's quite some resilience.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,706

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    Illegal immigration is not a fake crisis in the USA.

    Nor is the encouragement of it by some Dem politicians.
  • vikvik Posts: 480

    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    4 years is a long time. I think the Conservatives should be at least a 1/4 chance.

    Not while the part of the vote that the BBC always seems to manage to find on a Wednesday morning at Dudley Market is all in for Nigel.
    Farage is currently 61. He doesn’t seem to be ageing well to me. The next election is probably his last.
    And even that strains credulity a bit. By 2029, he will be offering himself as PM at the age where he will soon have to declare a personal interest in the Winter Fuel Payment policy.

    This is not America.
    Palmerston was 70 when he became PM for the first time, and Gladstone was 82 when he became PM for the 4th time.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The IDF previously showed footage of tunnels they claimed were under the hospital, and then had to concede were not under the hospital but where elsewhere: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If they are right about something this time, that is a good thing, but their reliability remains suspect while they keep making false claims.

    As for human shields, the IDF have been forcing Palestinian civilians to be human shields for them: https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/12/middleeast/israel-gaza-human-shields-investigation-intl/index.html , https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2025-05-24/ty-article/israeli-use-of-human-shields-in-gaza-was-systemic-soldiers-and-former-detainees-tell-ap/00000197-01e6-dc94-ab97-0fee1dd40000
    The "elsewhere" was 150-200 metres away. That is, to all intents and purposes, adjacent. "Elsewhere" makes it sound like they were miles away.
    Indeed, I made that point at the time. In the fog of war, being within a radius of about 150 meters is entirely reasonable.

    Sad to see him still pretending it was "elsewhere" without caveat.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,663
    edited 7:10AM

    DavidL said:

    1979, 1997, 2010, 2024. These changes don’t come around often. I expect a much reduced Labour majority good for 5 more years.

    I tend to agree. And if it's a 2033/4 election that is the competitive one, the strategic questions becomes a bit clearer.

    For Reform, it's how to hand the baton on to someone who isn't Nigel. None of the Farage vehicles have managed that before.

    Linked to that, for the Conservatives, the question is how to remain relevant until Farage leaves the stage, because that's their biggest opportunity. That in turn means that their leader (and the next one) need to recognise that their role is the Michael Howard one- ensuring that there is a party to hand over to a leader who can say "that mess was nothing to do with me".

    For the Lib Dems, there is some more Nice Britain to occupy, but that's not enough to get to second place. (Wonder what that ceiling is?) So what can they coherently add to that as their base?
    I think that Lib Dems will have their primary focus on a) Digging in in their new areas from 2024 a lot of which were due to many years chipping away, then b) Occupying more traditional Toryland whilst the Tories are on their arse, and then c) The hard yards of getting into new areas.

    On c), Lib Dems were within ~200 votes of winning Ashfield in 2010.

    There is a d) targeting areas which voted Labour in 2024 and feel left out depending on what Mr Starmer does, such as badly targeted wealth taxes.

    It's how they read the cost-benefit, and the time, I think.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,477

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
    It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

    Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360
    DavidL said:

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
    It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

    Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
    Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.

    Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.

    The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,051
    edited 7:14AM

    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    4 years is a long time. I think the Conservatives should be at least a 1/4 chance.

    Not while the part of the vote that the BBC always seems to manage to find on a Wednesday morning at Dudley Market is all in for Nigel.
    Farage is currently 61. He doesn’t seem to be ageing well to me. The next election is probably his last.
    And even that strains credulity a bit. By 2029, he will be offering himself as PM at the age where he will soon have to declare a personal interest in the Winter Fuel Payment policy.

    This is not America.
    The idea that Reform is a party for Da Yoof does stretch credulity somewhat when it is headed by Farage and trots out Ann Widdecombe on the media.
  • vikvik Posts: 480
    Battlebus said:

    vik said:

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
    Pic of the day from Turkey. How proto-dictators associate themselves with historic figures. How long before Trump adopts the same approach?


    Trump is already doing the same thing, but the Turkish opposition is a lot weaker than the Democrats & the Turkish legal system is a lot more fragile & the Turkish electoral system is a lot more centralised.


  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,904
    edited 7:15AM
    BBC article on energy pricing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o

    A distillation of the PB debates on the topic. It's currently the second most read item on BBC news.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,556
    Good morning, everyone.

    ISTM the Conservatives' best hope is to get some fresh young faces in at the next GE. They'd essentially be fighting local battles under cover of a national campaign. But do they have enough MPs who are ready to step down then, or will they all be focused on keeping their jobs?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,122
    Morning all.
    Comparisons to earlier big wins already seem off. New Labour held every by election 1997 to 2001, even gaining % in some of the Tory defences and they won the first local elections in 98 gaining 2 councils and only losing a net handful of the 2000 plus wards defended. A year in they were polling 10% above their 1997 vote with a twenty point plus lead
    Thats not what they face today.
    They are hilariously screwed.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,622
    .

    DavidL said:

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
    It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

    Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
    Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.

    Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.

    The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
    What do you think of Israel’s latest plan to defeat Hamas, by arming ISIS-affiliated groups in Gaza? https://edition.cnn.com/2025/06/06/middleeast/israel-arming-hamas-rivals-gaza-intl
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,122
    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    ISTM the Conservatives' best hope is to get some fresh young faces in at the next GE. They'd essentially be fighting local battles under cover of a national campaign. But do they have enough MPs who are ready to step down then, or will they all be focused on keeping their jobs?

    Tories best hope is a rearguard rural and held seat defence strategy (with the odd targets like N Northumberland/Hexham) and go hard at blue wall/London.
    All hands abandon the red wall
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,477
    Eabhal said:

    BBC article on energy pricing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o

    A distillation of the PB debates on the topic. It's currently the second most read item on BBC news.

    Where there is an incompetent shambles there is usually a Miliband. Especially if it’s expensive.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,721
    As an aside, when I was younger I wanted to go into tunnelling (*). One thing that amazes me still is that they can drill tunnels for many miles and end up only a few centimetres out of line. Even in ye olden days, where they often dug tunnels from shafts every few hundred yards, and dug small initial drifts instead of the full tunnel, it was amazing.

    But the really amazing thing are the maps of mines, e.g. coal. Not only do they show, to apparently quite high accuracy, the position of the workings, but they can also be objects of beauty. And all done manually, without modern stuff like lasers.

    (Somewhere I've got a book on surveying for tunnellers, written in Victorian times.)

    Incidentally, there's an online official map of all known old coal workings. I particularly like the ones to the west of Buxton in the Peak District, where the hollows in the ground are still well fenced off.

    https://datamine-cauk.hub.arcgis.com/

    (*) Yes, I wanted to bore as a profession. Now it's just a hobby...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,904
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    BBC article on energy pricing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o

    A distillation of the PB debates on the topic. It's currently the second most read item on BBC news.

    Where there is an incompetent shambles there is usually a Miliband. Especially if it’s expensive.
    Did you bother to read the article David? Your opprobrium will be valid only if Miliband doesn't fix the system the Conservatives left us with - particularly if you live north of the border.

    We're generating 3x as much electricity than we need, just from renewables.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,040

    BBC report with "fighting age men" in the headline, 2024: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68880085

    BBC report from 2022: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60645126
    Women with children wept with the stress, clutching their passports and family birth certificates in one hand and their children in the other. Outside the station, there were tearful goodbyes as fighting-age men, banned from leaving Ukraine, stopped and let their families go, unsure if they would ever see them again.

    Curious what "tedious dogwhistle" the BBC was blowing here.

    In that context, where there is conscription in the country, that the men are of fighting age is of direct relevance to the story. When discussing people outwith a direct discussion of conscription, calling them “fighting age” is irrelevant.
    Yes and no. This is what I was getting at last week when suggesting the small boats are full of men (of fighting age) fleeing from conscription either official or into irregular militias and gangs, and that therefore the solution was to bring peace to their home countries. For purely economic migrants, there should be equal numbers of men and women (and their children).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,477

    Morning all.
    Comparisons to earlier big wins already seem off. New Labour held every by election 1997 to 2001, even gaining % in some of the Tory defences and they won the first local elections in 98 gaining 2 councils and only losing a net handful of the 2000 plus wards defended. A year in they were polling 10% above their 1997 vote with a twenty point plus lead
    Thats not what they face today.
    They are hilariously screwed.

    Blair was the exception though (and Boris). The general rule is that governments are unpopular but support swings back to them when the alternatives are more closely examined. Current polling doesn’t mean Labour are screwed. A deeply split opposition suggests the opposite. Their low starting point in terms of share of the vote is a vulnerability. But their incumbency is a considerable strength.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,836
    edited 7:29AM
    Battlebus said:

    vik said:

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
    Pic of the day from Turkey. How proto-dictators associate themselves with historic figures. How long before Trump adopts the same approach?


    As Trump is of immigrant heritage (as so helpfully pointed out by Merz last week) are there any historic figures from Germany that he could associate himself with?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,663
    edited 7:26AM
    FPT:
    Nigelb said:

    I see Trump has just sent 20k APKWS rockets, ordered by the Biden administration for Ukraine, to the Middle East.

    They were designed as a cost effective solution for shooting down the hundreds of Shahed drones Russia is using every day to target civilians.

    Those are actually made by BAE, and are a new seeker head on an existing unguided rocket called the Hydra 70 (not sure which company makes those). We use them on our Apache helicopters. They were looking at ground launches years before the 2022 Ukraine invasion.

    There's an interchangeable Canadian made version of he Hydra 70 called the CRV7.

    It sits in a similar application slot as things like Martlet, but there is a big stock that can be converted.

    Perun was talking about the principle it in the winter / spring as a possibility for Europe to step up should the USA pull out.

    I have no idea where the IP sits Europe vs USA.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,751

    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    4 years is a long time. I think the Conservatives should be at least a 1/4 chance.

    Not while the part of the vote that the BBC always seems to manage to find on a Wednesday morning at Dudley Market is all in for Nigel.
    Farage is currently 61. He doesn’t seem to be ageing well to me. The next election is probably his last.
    And even that strains credulity a bit. By 2029, he will be offering himself as PM at the age where he will soon have to declare a personal interest in the Winter Fuel Payment policy.

    This is not America.
    Assuming Starmer is still PM, he is a year older than Farage. And 65 is hardly old. If I was Farage I would want to retire and spend more time with my money (indeed I have done so, at a younger age and with considerably less money) but then I'm not motivated in the same way.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,904
    edited 7:28AM

    As an aside, when I was younger I wanted to go into tunnelling (*). One thing that amazes me still is that they can drill tunnels for many miles and end up only a few centimetres out of line. Even in ye olden days, where they often dug tunnels from shafts every few hundred yards, and dug small initial drifts instead of the full tunnel, it was amazing.

    But the really amazing thing are the maps of mines, e.g. coal. Not only do they show, to apparently quite high accuracy, the position of the workings, but they can also be objects of beauty. And all done manually, without modern stuff like lasers.

    (Somewhere I've got a book on surveying for tunnellers, written in Victorian times.)

    Incidentally, there's an online official map of all known old coal workings. I particularly like the ones to the west of Buxton in the Peak District, where the hollows in the ground are still well fenced off.

    https://datamine-cauk.hub.arcgis.com/

    (*) Yes, I wanted to bore as a profession. Now it's just a hobby...

    That's a great map. You can see the close correlation with development in and around Edinburgh and the location of old mines. It's quite a big problem for developers.

    I've got a good friend currently working 1km below the North Sea. Mad.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,667
    I sense Labour are learning on the job. They seem to be getting incrementally better and with an understanding of how to strike a balance between following public opinion and leading it.

    I have a feeling they are now listening to Blair who until Iraq was the master of the genre with their in-house pollsters led by Philip Gould. Find out where the public are and where they can be taken to.

    Farage is a mountebank who glitters in the absense of an alternative. The chances of a Party led by him going the distance seem very slight. At the moment with Labour and the Libs holding the centre ground short of a Tory revival I can't see an alternative to the next government being a Labour one
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,836
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    BBC article on energy pricing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o

    A distillation of the PB debates on the topic. It's currently the second most read item on BBC news.

    Where there is an incompetent shambles there is usually a Miliband. Especially if it’s expensive.
    Did you bother to read the article David? Your opprobrium will be valid only if Miliband doesn't fix the system the Conservatives left us with - particularly if you live north of the border.

    We're generating 3x as much electricity than we need, just from renewables.
    And paying the highest prices in Europe for what we do need.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,040
    edited 7:31AM
    Public ownership of England’s water companies could cost close to zero, says thinktank
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/jun/09/water-companies-public-ownership-could-cost-close-to-zero-says-common-wealth-thinktank

    ETA this seems like the sort of thing Farage should be all over. Popular, cheap and with the potential to embarrass both main parties.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,663
    FPT:

    Trump is not taking any risks with Prince Harry.

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1931820853165199518

    A once great American City, Los Angeles, has been invaded and occupied by Illegal Aliens and Criminals. Now violent, insurrectionist mobs are swarming and attacking our Federal Agents to try and stop our deportation operations — But these lawless riots only strengthen our resolve. I am directing Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, and Attorney General Pam Bondi, in coordination with all other relevant Departments and Agencies, to take all such action necessary to liberate Los Angeles from the Migrant Invasion, and put an end to these Migrant riots. Order will be restored, the Illegals will be expelled, and Los Angeles will be set free. Thank you for your attention to this matter!

    I think the Achilles Heel for Trump on this one is that he has done what he always does - he probably has the legal right to do it if he follows the legal procedures.

    But he didn't follow the legal procedures, and just did a JFDI.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,706

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    ISTM the Conservatives' best hope is to get some fresh young faces in at the next GE. They'd essentially be fighting local battles under cover of a national campaign. But do they have enough MPs who are ready to step down then, or will they all be focused on keeping their jobs?

    Tories best hope is a rearguard rural and held seat defence strategy (with the odd targets like N Northumberland/Hexham) and go hard at blue wall/London.
    All hands abandon the red wall
    Many of the Conservative targets are in the red wall.

    And its a lot more likely for Labour to lose support there than for the LibDems to do so in the blue wall.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,477
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    BBC article on energy pricing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o

    A distillation of the PB debates on the topic. It's currently the second most read item on BBC news.

    Where there is an incompetent shambles there is usually a Miliband. Especially if it’s expensive.
    Did you bother to read the article David? Your opprobrium will be valid only if Miliband doesn't fix the system the Conservatives left us with - particularly if you live north of the border.

    We're generating 3x as much electricity than we need, just from renewables.
    I did and as others mentioned it is familiar territory to anyone who has read the posts here on PB.
    I’m not holding any candle for the previous government. Building some of the largest offshore wind farms in the world without putting a lot of serious thought into how that energy was going to be efficiently harnessed and distributed was mind blowingly stupid. But Miliband has so far made it worse, not better.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,122
    edited 7:37AM
    DavidL said:

    Morning all.
    Comparisons to earlier big wins already seem off. New Labour held every by election 1997 to 2001, even gaining % in some of the Tory defences and they won the first local elections in 98 gaining 2 councils and only losing a net handful of the 2000 plus wards defended. A year in they were polling 10% above their 1997 vote with a twenty point plus lead
    Thats not what they face today.
    They are hilariously screwed.

    Blair was the exception though (and Boris). The general rule is that governments are unpopular but support swings back to them when the alternatives are more closely examined. Current polling doesn’t mean Labour are screwed. A deeply split opposition suggests the opposite. Their low starting point in terms of share of the vote is a vulnerability. But their incumbency is a considerable strength.
    No, this is different. After a year.....
    1979 - within a year yes Con lost councillors in 1980 but were holding vote share in polling from 1979 generally (in wretched economic circs)
    1997 - as above
    2010 - Con held polling vote share and gained at the 2011 locals

    Newly elected 'change' govts are not unpopular

    This is unprecedented
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,706
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    Trump is not taking any risks with Prince Harry.

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1931820853165199518

    A once great American City, Los Angeles, has been invaded and occupied by Illegal Aliens and Criminals. Now violent, insurrectionist mobs are swarming and attacking our Federal Agents to try and stop our deportation operations — But these lawless riots only strengthen our resolve. I am directing Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, and Attorney General Pam Bondi, in coordination with all other relevant Departments and Agencies, to take all such action necessary to liberate Los Angeles from the Migrant Invasion, and put an end to these Migrant riots. Order will be restored, the Illegals will be expelled, and Los Angeles will be set free. Thank you for your attention to this matter!

    I think the Achilles Heel for Trump on this one is that he has done what he always does - he probably has the legal right to do it if he follows the legal procedures.

    But he didn't follow the legal procedures, and just did a JFDI.
    Trump wold be far more dangerous if he had appointed a competent cabinet and then allowed them to apply his wishes effectively and legally.

    That would require him willing to have people to stand up to him rather than fawning sycophants.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,477

    DavidL said:

    Morning all.
    Comparisons to earlier big wins already seem off. New Labour held every by election 1997 to 2001, even gaining % in some of the Tory defences and they won the first local elections in 98 gaining 2 councils and only losing a net handful of the 2000 plus wards defended. A year in they were polling 10% above their 1997 vote with a twenty point plus lead
    Thats not what they face today.
    They are hilariously screwed.

    Blair was the exception though (and Boris). The general rule is that governments are unpopular but support swings back to them when the alternatives are more closely examined. Current polling doesn’t mean Labour are screwed. A deeply split opposition suggests the opposite. Their low starting point in terms of share of the vote is a vulnerability. But their incumbency is a considerable strength.
    No, this is different. After a year.....
    1979 - within a year yes Con lost councillors in 1980 but were holding vote share in polling from 1979 generally (in wretched economic circs)
    1997 - as above
    2010 - Con held polling vote share and gained at the 2011 locals

    Newly elected 'change' govts are not unpopular

    This is unprecedented
    I feel a cartoon from Robert coming on…
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,904
    edited 7:39AM

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    BBC article on energy pricing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o

    A distillation of the PB debates on the topic. It's currently the second most read item on BBC news.

    Where there is an incompetent shambles there is usually a Miliband. Especially if it’s expensive.
    Did you bother to read the article David? Your opprobrium will be valid only if Miliband doesn't fix the system the Conservatives left us with - particularly if you live north of the border.

    We're generating 3x as much electricity than we need, just from renewables.
    And paying the highest prices in Europe for what we do need.
    It does depend on the granularity of regional pricing - I don't think in the central belt we can expect particularly low prices given the distance from onshore wind and the size of the population. But for those in Highlands/Moray/Aberdeenshire, and perhaps Fife/East Lothian/Angus for offshore, energy should be nearly free.

    Our universal price system is very unusual. Almost all other countries have some form of regional/nodal system.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,667

    There’s been a lot of criticism of Elon Musk lately, but there are worse people than Elon Musk.

    Like his dad: https://kyivindependent.com/elon-musks-father-attends-pro-kremlin-event-in-russia-hosted-by-far-right-ideologue/

    South Africa is the only place I've worked where I met and worked with people who had as a group a really unpleasant attitude. An almost Israeli level arrogance. I don't know the Musks but I always sense the White South African in him every time he hits the news
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,545
    Let’s look at the numbers to work it out, because the possibility of swingback is real, it always is, as is the likelihood of consolidation or geographic sorting (Lib Dem style) of the vote on both left and right.

    Latest Yougov:

    REF: 28% (-1)
    LAB: 22% (+1)
    CON: 18% (-1)
    LDEM: 17% (+2)
    GRN: 9% (-2)

    That is 46 to Ref and Con combined, and 48 to LLG. Other polls have the right-left lead the other way around. But the “bloc” balance has been stable for months after the centre-left lost its commanding lead a few months into the Labour government. So the country is divided quite equally, as is this forum.

    We’re in the era of PR vote shares in a FPTP system. Comparing Labour’s 22% with previous incumbents is tempting but you’d also then need to compare Reform’s 28% with previous challengers, who would usually have been in the 40s mid-term.

    I think there are two important dynamics, alongside the usual Scottish one, which are hard to predict.

    1. Not all those Green votes will return to Labour. The question is how many will, and whether those that stay out cost any Labour seats.
    2. Will Reform consolidate the right? If they do then that helps them against Labour but probably costs even more Tory seats to Lib Dems in the South

  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,663
    edited 7:42AM
    Recalling the theory, expressed last night in between memories of BobbyJ, that survivors into active old age are those who can Sit down/stand up a lot on a) A chair and b) the ground.

    How do we think:

    a Farage
    b Davey
    c Starmer

    would do? I have not seen any of them running marathons.

    I've left Badenoch out since she is of a younger generation.

    (My cousin and her husband are just past 60 and have taken up table tennis. He did 5-a-side football until last year. I'm working on it.)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,706

    DavidL said:

    Morning all.
    Comparisons to earlier big wins already seem off. New Labour held every by election 1997 to 2001, even gaining % in some of the Tory defences and they won the first local elections in 98 gaining 2 councils and only losing a net handful of the 2000 plus wards defended. A year in they were polling 10% above their 1997 vote with a twenty point plus lead
    Thats not what they face today.
    They are hilariously screwed.

    Blair was the exception though (and Boris). The general rule is that governments are unpopular but support swings back to them when the alternatives are more closely examined. Current polling doesn’t mean Labour are screwed. A deeply split opposition suggests the opposite. Their low starting point in terms of share of the vote is a vulnerability. But their incumbency is a considerable strength.
    No, this is different. After a year.....
    1979 - within a year yes Con lost councillors in 1980 but were holding vote share in polling from 1979 generally (in wretched economic circs)
    1997 - as above
    2010 - Con held polling vote share and gained at the 2011 locals

    Newly elected 'change' govts are not unpopular

    This is unprecedented
    2024 was a 'change' election but it didn't produce a 'change' government.

    To be fair to Labour I'm not sure its possible to produce the 'change' government that those people want (many of whose ideas of 'change' are contradictory).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,904
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    BBC article on energy pricing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o

    A distillation of the PB debates on the topic. It's currently the second most read item on BBC news.

    Where there is an incompetent shambles there is usually a Miliband. Especially if it’s expensive.
    Did you bother to read the article David? Your opprobrium will be valid only if Miliband doesn't fix the system the Conservatives left us with - particularly if you live north of the border.

    We're generating 3x as much electricity than we need, just from renewables.
    I did and as others mentioned it is familiar territory to anyone who has read the posts here on PB.
    I’m not holding any candle for the previous government. Building some of the largest offshore wind farms in the world without putting a lot of serious thought into how that energy was going to be efficiently harnessed and distributed was mind blowingly stupid. But Miliband has so far made it worse, not better.
    ... how? He's not changed the pricing system (yet) but he has liberalised the planning system for transmission, at least partly solving the issue.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,477
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    BBC article on energy pricing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o

    A distillation of the PB debates on the topic. It's currently the second most read item on BBC news.

    Where there is an incompetent shambles there is usually a Miliband. Especially if it’s expensive.
    Did you bother to read the article David? Your opprobrium will be valid only if Miliband doesn't fix the system the Conservatives left us with - particularly if you live north of the border.

    We're generating 3x as much electricity than we need, just from renewables.
    And paying the highest prices in Europe for what we do need.
    It does depend on the granularity of regional pricing - I don't think in the central belt we can expect particularly low prices given the distance from onshore wind and the size of the population. But for those in Highlands/Moray/Aberdeenshire, and perhaps Fife/East Lothian/Angus for offshore, energy should be nearly free.

    Our universal price system is very unusual. Almost all other countries have some form of regional/nodal system.
    The relative cost of offshore wind should be being used to attract heavy energy users to the source. But I am not sure Miliband thinks heavy industry is compatible with his zero emissions policy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,051

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    Trump is not taking any risks with Prince Harry.

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1931820853165199518

    A once great American City, Los Angeles, has been invaded and occupied by Illegal Aliens and Criminals. Now violent, insurrectionist mobs are swarming and attacking our Federal Agents to try and stop our deportation operations — But these lawless riots only strengthen our resolve. I am directing Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, and Attorney General Pam Bondi, in coordination with all other relevant Departments and Agencies, to take all such action necessary to liberate Los Angeles from the Migrant Invasion, and put an end to these Migrant riots. Order will be restored, the Illegals will be expelled, and Los Angeles will be set free. Thank you for your attention to this matter!

    I think the Achilles Heel for Trump on this one is that he has done what he always does - he probably has the legal right to do it if he follows the legal procedures.

    But he didn't follow the legal procedures, and just did a JFDI.
    Trump wold be far more dangerous if he had appointed a competent cabinet and then allowed them to apply his wishes effectively and legally.

    That would require him willing to have people to stand up to him rather than fawning sycophants.
    They were only put in there to fawn. And by God, they do it well.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,122
    edited 7:46AM

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    ISTM the Conservatives' best hope is to get some fresh young faces in at the next GE. They'd essentially be fighting local battles under cover of a national campaign. But do they have enough MPs who are ready to step down then, or will they all be focused on keeping their jobs?

    Tories best hope is a rearguard rural and held seat defence strategy (with the odd targets like N Northumberland/Hexham) and go hard at blue wall/London.
    All hands abandon the red wall
    Many of the Conservative targets are in the red wall.

    And its a lot more likely for Labour to lose support there than for the LibDems to do so in the blue wall.
    Bulk of their 'easier' targets are in the East, SE, SW, London
    LDs will imo lose some of the tactical voting that won them 72 seats on 12.6% in 2024, there are no Tories to 'get out' this time
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,877

    As an aside, when I was younger I wanted to go into tunnelling (*). One thing that amazes me still is that they can drill tunnels for many miles and end up only a few centimetres out of line. Even in ye olden days, where they often dug tunnels from shafts every few hundred yards, and dug small initial drifts instead of the full tunnel, it was amazing.

    But the really amazing thing are the maps of mines, e.g. coal. Not only do they show, to apparently quite high accuracy, the position of the workings, but they can also be objects of beauty. And all done manually, without modern stuff like lasers.

    (Somewhere I've got a book on surveying for tunnellers, written in Victorian times.)

    Incidentally, there's an online official map of all known old coal workings. I particularly like the ones to the west of Buxton in the Peak District, where the hollows in the ground are still well fenced off.

    https://datamine-cauk.hub.arcgis.com/

    (*) Yes, I wanted to bore as a profession. Now it's just a hobby...

    Does PB have associate membership with the Dull Men's Club?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jun/09/meet-the-members-of-the-dull-mens-club-some-of-them-would-bore-the-ears-off-you?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,337

    .

    DavidL said:

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
    It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

    Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
    Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.

    Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.

    The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
    What do you think of Israel’s latest plan to defeat Hamas, by arming ISIS-affiliated groups in Gaza? https://edition.cnn.com/2025/06/06/middleeast/israel-arming-hamas-rivals-gaza-intl
    Given that Netanyahu was responsible for promoting and encouraging Hamas and ensuring they received plenty of foriegn funding, it seems pretty much true to form for him to be supporting another bunch of terrorists.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,046
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    I see Trump has just sent 20k APKWS rockets, ordered by the Biden administration for Ukraine, to the Middle East.

    They were designed as a cost effective solution for shooting down the hundreds of Shahed drones Russia is using every day to target civilians.

    Those are actually made by BAE, and are a new seeker head on an existing unguided rocket called the Hydra 70 (not sure which company makes those). We use them on our Apache helicopters. They were looking at ground launches years before the 2022 Ukraine invasion.

    There's an interchangeable Canadian made version of he Hydra 70 called the CRV7.

    It sits in a similar application slot as things like Martlet, but there is a big stock that can be converted.

    Perun was talking about the principle it in the winter / spring as a possibility for Europe to step up should the USA pull out.

    I have no idea where the IP sits Europe vs USA.
    BAE IP.
    The 20k were paid for by the US.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,548
    DavidL said:

    1979, 1997, 2010, 2024. These changes don’t come around often. I expect a much reduced Labour majority good for 5 more years.

    The outcomes of Labour majority or Lab/LD combined majority, with some arrangement together whatever it is called, is a 60+% chance.

    In particular, Reform will struggle to keep the show on the road for four years. The essential move, currently underway, to move to an Old Labour + nearly closed borders position - not in itself ridiculous - will have its difficulties given that so many of its louder voices are absurd and amateurish.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,877
    Battlebus said:

    vik said:

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
    Pic of the day from Turkey. How proto-dictators associate themselves with historic figures. How long before Trump adopts the same approach?


    Well he is having a birthday parade with rocket launchers etc.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,719
    vik said:

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
    He doesn't need to cancel them

    Yesterday showed that he can send federal personnel to take over state duties

    He can send people to 'help' with the elections
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,667
    Battlebus said:

    vik said:

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
    Pic of the day from Turkey. How proto-dictators associate themselves with historic figures. How long before Trump adopts the same approach?


    Ataturk would be great but don't hold your breath
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,121
    Roger said:

    There’s been a lot of criticism of Elon Musk lately, but there are worse people than Elon Musk.

    Like his dad: https://kyivindependent.com/elon-musks-father-attends-pro-kremlin-event-in-russia-hosted-by-far-right-ideologue/

    South Africa is the only place I've worked where I met and worked with people who had as a group a really unpleasant attitude. An almost Israeli level arrogance. I don't know the Musks but I always sense the White South African in him every time he hits the news
    I would actually agree with this. I've found a general trend, but obviously not always, towards arrogance, wyth both those groups.

    The South African trend seems to me more chilly and impenetrable, thiough, with a tendency towards being proudly rude, on the other hand, among some Israelis too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,877
    Roger said:

    I sense Labour are learning on the job. They seem to be getting incrementally better and with an understanding of how to strike a balance between following public opinion and leading it.

    I have a feeling they are now listening to Blair who until Iraq was the master of the genre with their in-house pollsters led by Philip Gould. Find out where the public are and where they can be taken to.

    Farage is a mountebank who glitters in the absense of an alternative. The chances of a Party led by him going the distance seem very slight. At the moment with Labour and the Libs holding the centre ground short of a Tory revival I can't see an alternative to the next government being a Labour one

    Yes, I think that true. The last month or two is showing a bit more cohesion and action from the Starmer government after a pretty inept start. I think the fact that they are now leading in the chart in the header shows that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,051

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    ISTM the Conservatives' best hope is to get some fresh young faces in at the next GE. They'd essentially be fighting local battles under cover of a national campaign. But do they have enough MPs who are ready to step down then, or will they all be focused on keeping their jobs?

    Tories best hope is a rearguard rural and held seat defence strategy (with the odd targets like N Northumberland/Hexham) and go hard at blue wall/London.
    All hands abandon the red wall
    Many of the Conservative targets are in the red wall.

    And its a lot more likely for Labour to lose support there than for the LibDems to do so in the blue wall.
    Bulk of their 'easier' targets are in the East, SE, SW, London
    LDs will imo lose some of the tactical voting that won them 72 seats on 12.6% in 2024, there are no Tories to 'get out' this time
    I reckon the challenge for the Tories for the next couple of years is to stay a force in local government. They need to show that both the LibDems and Reform are piss poor at delivering local services The need to pounce on every failure, especially by Reform. Ifthey can stay in touch locally, they can still be a party that voters still see as an option nationally.

    Especially if Labour continue down their route of being a by-word for fuck-up.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360

    .

    DavidL said:

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
    It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

    Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
    Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.

    Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.

    The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
    What do you think of Israel’s latest plan to defeat Hamas, by arming ISIS-affiliated groups in Gaza? https://edition.cnn.com/2025/06/06/middleeast/israel-arming-hamas-rivals-gaza-intl
    I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.

    Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,548
    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    The interesting question is who gets the second largest number of seats?

    If it's Reform then it's hard to see a Tory comeback.

    Is the current love-in of the BBC and Reform, just a way of ensuring the Conservatives decline into obscurity. Reform will do their own self-immolation so Labour as largest party? More than likely.
    Tories are doing their own decline without BBC help. If they had a leader and a few front benchers as effective at communication as, say Ken Clarke, Heseltine, Thatcher, Farage or Blair and with as much interesting to say, the BBC would be all over it.

    Labour as as bad, but as they are in power they are significant even when deadly dull.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,877
    Roger said:

    There’s been a lot of criticism of Elon Musk lately, but there are worse people than Elon Musk.

    Like his dad: https://kyivindependent.com/elon-musks-father-attends-pro-kremlin-event-in-russia-hosted-by-far-right-ideologue/

    South Africa is the only place I've worked where I met and worked with people who had as a group a really unpleasant attitude. An almost Israeli level arrogance. I don't know the Musks but I always sense the White South African in him every time he hits the news
    South Africans of all races are very hospitable people, albeit sometimes not to each other.

    Afrikaaners included, just keep off politics.
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 355

    There’s been a lot of criticism of Elon Musk lately, but there are worse people than Elon Musk.

    Like his dad: https://kyivindependent.com/elon-musks-father-attends-pro-kremlin-event-in-russia-hosted-by-far-right-ideologue/

    I know that I bang on about this too much, but the BBC's programme/podcast on the background to Elon Musk is well worth hearing. It is presented by a Professor of the History of Science at Harvard. Originally called "The Evening Rocket", it has now been updated and is now called "X Man: The Elon Musk origin Story".

    Briefly, if you think his dad is bad, wait until you meet his grandfather. The programme considers the influences of the 1930s Technocratic Movement, the significance of the alphabet (! yes, really!) the symbolism of comic books and various concepts of Master Races, and the way they have all helped to form young Elon.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,719
    edited 7:57AM
    algarkirk said:

    Tories are doing their own decline without BBC help. If they had a leader and a few front benchers as effective at communication as, say Ken Clarke, Heseltine, Thatcher, Farage or Blair and with as much interesting to say, the BBC would be all over it.

    I don't think that's true

    The RefUKkers (NFF apart) are not of that calibre and are interviewed constantly

    This can only be an editorial decision
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,183
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    1979, 1997, 2010, 2024. These changes don’t come around often. I expect a much reduced Labour majority good for 5 more years.

    I tend to agree. And if it's a 2033/4 election that is the competitive one, the strategic questions becomes a bit clearer.

    For Reform, it's how to hand the baton on to someone who isn't Nigel. None of the Farage vehicles have managed that before.

    Linked to that, for the Conservatives, the question is how to remain relevant until Farage leaves the stage, because that's their biggest opportunity. That in turn means that their leader (and the next one) need to recognise that their role is the Michael Howard one- ensuring that there is a party to hand over to a leader who can say "that mess was nothing to do with me".

    For the Lib Dems, there is some more Nice Britain to occupy, but that's not enough to get to second place. (Wonder what that ceiling is?) So what can they coherently add to that as their base?
    I think that Lib Dems will have their primary focus on a) Digging in in their new areas from 2024 a lot of which were due to many years chipping away, then b) Occupying more traditional Toryland whilst the Tories are on their arse, and then c) The hard yards of getting into new areas.

    On c), Lib Dems were within ~200 votes of winning Ashfield in 2010.

    There is a d) targeting areas which voted Labour in 2024 and feel left out depending on what Mr Starmer does, such as badly targeted wealth taxes.

    It's how they read the cost-benefit, and the time, I think.
    I think the ceiling on Lib Dem seats is currently about 100.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,548
    Scott_xP said:

    vik said:

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
    He doesn't need to cancel them

    Yesterday showed that he can send federal personnel to take over state duties

    He can send people to 'help' with the elections
    Interesting question: To what extent are Trump's moves with the national guard a sort of tentative trial run for doing a 'Reichstag fire' move a bit before the next elections in 2026.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,719
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    vik said:

    Trump and those pulling his strings appear to be trying to confect a fake crisis in California. All part of the process of fanning flames enough to give him a reason to cancel the midterms, I suspect.

    The law & the constitution is very clear and does not allow him to cancel any mid-term elections.

    There is absolutely no way that any court, including the Supreme Court, would allow him to cancel any elections. Also, the elections are conducted by the States, so Blue States like California will go ahead with the elections, no matter what Trump says.

    Constitution Article 1, Clause 2: "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

    2 U.S. Code § 7: "The Tuesday next after the 1st Monday in November, in every even numbered year, is established as the day for the election, in each of the States and Territories of the United States, of Representatives and Delegates to the Congress commencing on the 3d day of January next thereafter."
    He doesn't need to cancel them

    Yesterday showed that he can send federal personnel to take over state duties

    He can send people to 'help' with the elections
    Interesting question: To what extent are Trump's moves with the national guard a sort of tentative trial run for doing a 'Reichstag fire' move a bit before the next elections in 2026.
    100%
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,122

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    ISTM the Conservatives' best hope is to get some fresh young faces in at the next GE. They'd essentially be fighting local battles under cover of a national campaign. But do they have enough MPs who are ready to step down then, or will they all be focused on keeping their jobs?

    Tories best hope is a rearguard rural and held seat defence strategy (with the odd targets like N Northumberland/Hexham) and go hard at blue wall/London.
    All hands abandon the red wall
    Many of the Conservative targets are in the red wall.

    And its a lot more likely for Labour to lose support there than for the LibDems to do so in the blue wall.
    Bulk of their 'easier' targets are in the East, SE, SW, London
    LDs will imo lose some of the tactical voting that won them 72 seats on 12.6% in 2024, there are no Tories to 'get out' this time
    I reckon the challenge for the Tories for the next couple of years is to stay a force in local government. They need to show that both the LibDems and Reform are piss poor at delivering local services The need to pounce on every failure, especially by Reform. Ifthey can stay in touch locally, they can still be a party that voters still see as an option nationally.

    Especially if Labour continue down their route of being a by-word for fuck-up.
    Yeah, that's a fair point. Northumberland and Bucks need to be better run than Kent and Staffs, or Wilts.
    2024 should have taught them to start working their wards in the delayed counties hard and now
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,663
    edited 8:03AM
    Eabhal said:

    As an aside, when I was younger I wanted to go into tunnelling (*). One thing that amazes me still is that they can drill tunnels for many miles and end up only a few centimetres out of line. Even in ye olden days, where they often dug tunnels from shafts every few hundred yards, and dug small initial drifts instead of the full tunnel, it was amazing.

    But the really amazing thing are the maps of mines, e.g. coal. Not only do they show, to apparently quite high accuracy, the position of the workings, but they can also be objects of beauty. And all done manually, without modern stuff like lasers.

    (Somewhere I've got a book on surveying for tunnellers, written in Victorian times.)

    Incidentally, there's an online official map of all known old coal workings. I particularly like the ones to the west of Buxton in the Peak District, where the hollows in the ground are still well fenced off.

    https://datamine-cauk.hub.arcgis.com/

    (*) Yes, I wanted to bore as a profession. Now it's just a hobby...

    That's a great map. You can see the close correlation with development in and around Edinburgh and the location of old mines. It's quite a big problem for developers.

    I've got a good friend currently working 1km below the North Sea. Mad.
    These are in the most mundane places. I have a lovely double tunnel about 4 or 5 miles away in a place called Alfreton. My photo - of the "access for maintenance" route.

    http://www.forgottenrelics.org/tunnels/alfreton-old-tunnel/

    Network Rail have a *lot* of parallel-to-the-line routes which could be used for all kinds of beneficial things, but which they keep fenced off. I have a multiuser path that could take me all the way to (mainline) Alfreton Station but which stops half-a-mile short, because Network Rail keep a parallel track fenced off.

    So it is necessary to do battle with dual carriageways or dangerous narrow roads, and huge hills (the EMM goes through the flat valley).

    So no one uses it to get to the station. The close by area of potential users has about 200k people in it.

    But they won't. They choose, as we know, to block up bridges rather than let them be a public benefit. It's all hidden in plain sight.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,548
    Barnesian said:

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    1979, 1997, 2010, 2024. These changes don’t come around often. I expect a much reduced Labour majority good for 5 more years.

    I tend to agree. And if it's a 2033/4 election that is the competitive one, the strategic questions becomes a bit clearer.

    For Reform, it's how to hand the baton on to someone who isn't Nigel. None of the Farage vehicles have managed that before.

    Linked to that, for the Conservatives, the question is how to remain relevant until Farage leaves the stage, because that's their biggest opportunity. That in turn means that their leader (and the next one) need to recognise that their role is the Michael Howard one- ensuring that there is a party to hand over to a leader who can say "that mess was nothing to do with me".

    For the Lib Dems, there is some more Nice Britain to occupy, but that's not enough to get to second place. (Wonder what that ceiling is?) So what can they coherently add to that as their base?
    I think that Lib Dems will have their primary focus on a) Digging in in their new areas from 2024 a lot of which were due to many years chipping away, then b) Occupying more traditional Toryland whilst the Tories are on their arse, and then c) The hard yards of getting into new areas.

    On c), Lib Dems were within ~200 votes of winning Ashfield in 2010.

    There is a d) targeting areas which voted Labour in 2024 and feel left out depending on what Mr Starmer does, such as badly targeted wealth taxes.

    It's how they read the cost-benefit, and the time, I think.
    I think the ceiling on Lib Dem seats is currently about 100.
    I agree. For this to change, the whole zeitgeist would have to shift. The current state is that the LDs are a national party of sorts, but only more than a protest vote in about 100 seats with a very particular profile - posh and/or Labour are not in the fight. (Exceptions noted)

    Unless either Labour ot Tories go extinct it is hard to see how they can extend much. There can't be much doubt that their plan for now is to be in government with Labour and then see what happens next.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,947
    FPT
    Cicero said:

    eek said:

    Digital ID cards could be Starmer’s poll tax
    ...
    The Telegraph has reported the concerns of senior risk and cybersecurity staff working on One Login in some detail. The system was being accessed and modified by staff and contractors without the required level of security. Parts of the system were being developed in Romania, a fact that had eluded top management at the Government Digital Service (GDS).

    “It’s Horizon all over again,” one global security expert told this newspaper in April, referring to the notorious Post Office computer system. Of the 39 requirements in the National Cybersecurity Centre’s cybersecurity checklist list CAF, One Login still only meets 21.

    But instead of taking the warnings seriously, One Login’s senior management at GDS turned on the messengers who had brought them the bad news, dispersing the independent risk and cybersecurity team that first raised the issues. One Login’s management subsequently began to mark their own homework.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/08/digital-id-cards-could-be-starmers-poll-tax/ (£££)

    Paywalled but you should be able to read it via this ‘gift’ link:-
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/292dadc29ac6aa19

    Good morning, everyone.

    First I've heard of digital ID cards, which sound like a hellish thing.
    I d heard of the id cards - what I haven’t heard is about any issues with the One Login system which really should have been focus of the article.

    And I’m at a loss as to what is wrong with the digital id scheme, if you need to show your id or prove your right to do something it will make things rather easier. It’s not like the police will stop you and ask to see your id without a valid reason which seems to be the thing people hate
    Not being able to prove you are human while online is becoming a serious problem. Digital ID solves this problem, and the benefits are huge while the risks, so far, are very small. It is long overdue that the UK takes the threats in the online world a lot more seriously.
    The problem with ID cards isn't the ID cards.

    The problem is the insane requirement that every government database be linked up, and access provided to everyone who asks. *Without* segregation of data.

    So, under the ID card scheme that was beginning to be implemented, a contractor, working for the council on fly tipping, could see your NHS records.

    Yes, they really specified the system that way. So that "administrative friction" wouldn't slow down "necassary work".

    When they realised there was a problem, the response was that data for "Important People" (decided by the government) would be segregated in a separate database with limited access.

    ID cards without this bullshit would be fine.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,866

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    ISTM the Conservatives' best hope is to get some fresh young faces in at the next GE. They'd essentially be fighting local battles under cover of a national campaign. But do they have enough MPs who are ready to step down then, or will they all be focused on keeping their jobs?

    Tories best hope is a rearguard rural and held seat defence strategy (with the odd targets like N Northumberland/Hexham) and go hard at blue wall/London.
    All hands abandon the red wall
    Many of the Conservative targets are in the red wall.

    And its a lot more likely for Labour to lose support there than for the LibDems to do so in the blue wall.
    Bulk of their 'easier' targets are in the East, SE, SW, London
    LDs will imo lose some of the tactical voting that won them 72 seats on 12.6% in 2024, there are no Tories to 'get out' this time
    I reckon the challenge for the Tories for the next couple of years is to stay a force in local government. They need to show that both the LibDems and Reform are piss poor at delivering local services The need to pounce on every failure, especially by Reform. Ifthey can stay in touch locally, they can still be a party that voters still see as an option nationally.

    Especially if Labour continue down their route of being a by-word for fuck-up.
    Trouble is that, in a fair bit of the country, that ship has been sailing for years. Here's the list:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_make-up_of_local_councils_in_the_United_Kingdom

    Five very outer London boroughs, a couple of Midlands mets, the counties that postponed elections and some second tier districts that few could locate on a map.

    It's better than nothing, but not by much.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,435

    DavidL said:

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
    It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

    Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
    Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.

    Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.

    The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
    But the Tamil people were allowed to remain in Sri Lanka. Tamil is still one of the Official Languages of Sri Lanka.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360

    .

    DavidL said:

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
    It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

    Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
    Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.

    Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.

    The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
    What do you think of Israel’s latest plan to defeat Hamas, by arming ISIS-affiliated groups in Gaza? https://edition.cnn.com/2025/06/06/middleeast/israel-arming-hamas-rivals-gaza-intl
    I think it's bloody stupid and Netanyahu is the wrong person to be Israeli PM.

    Israel should be seeking a monopoly of violence, as any state does.
    Thank goodness Israel is a democracy and Israelis have had multiple opportunities (checks notes: since 1996) to get rid of Netanyahu, unlike the vile Gazans who bear all responsibilty for Hamas being in power since a single election in 2006.
    Of course the Israelis did get rid of Netanyahu in the past, and elected leaders who tried to negotiate a peace agreement (rejected by Arafat), then tried to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza (which was taken advantage of by Hamas).
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,360

    DavidL said:

    I see that Hamas chief Sinwar's body has been found, in a tunnel underneath a hospital. With journalists being taken to the tunnels underneath the hospital.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62veqrq3yzo

    I seem to recall @bondegezou insisting a few days ago that Hamas were actually using a school, not the hospital, a few metres away as the human shields, so that makes it OK by Hamas and a war crime by Israel to strike at him at the hospital where his body has now been found.

    Good on Israel for striking another Hamas leader. A shame for the poor, innocent Palestinians who are caught in the middle and being denied refuge from this war by neighbouring states until Hamas surrenders.

    The tunnels situation is quite interesting. In such a densely-packed area as Gaza, it's quite possible that a tunnel network starting from (say) a shop, spreads not just downwards, but laterally, to cover an area that encompasses the footprints of both a school and a hospital. They may (or may not) be connected to those buildings (*), but even if they are not connected, they are using those civilian structures as cover.

    The idea that "it starts from a school, not the hospital" seems rather simplistic.

    But on the other hand: if the network is widespread, how could the journalists know whether they are under the hospital or elsewhere (given the tunnel was apparently accessed through freshly-dug earth just outside the hospital)?

    (*) It would make sense for them to be connected, even if not the primary route used.
    It is astonishing that some (not you) still try to pretend that hospitals and schools are not used by Hamas for their command and control centres making them both legal targets for the Israelis and putting their own vulnerable people at risk. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

    Does this excuse what Israel is doing? Of course not. Much of what they are doing are war crimes. But bombing hospitals used in this way is not. It’s merely abhorrent.
    Abhorrent but sadly necessary to defeat Hamas.

    Too many here don't want to see Hamas defeated, or their unconditional surrender though.

    The Tamil Tigers were defeated. There's no reason Hamas can't be. All it takes to end the fighting is for them to surrender.
    But the Tamil people were allowed to remain in Sri Lanka. Tamil is still one of the Official Languages of Sri Lanka.
    So there's no reason not to desire the same to happen to Hamas then, is there?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,040

    There’s been a lot of criticism of Elon Musk lately, but there are worse people than Elon Musk.

    Like his dad: https://kyivindependent.com/elon-musks-father-attends-pro-kremlin-event-in-russia-hosted-by-far-right-ideologue/

    I know that I bang on about this too much, but the BBC's programme/podcast on the background to Elon Musk is well worth hearing. It is presented by a Professor of the History of Science at Harvard. Originally called "The Evening Rocket", it has now been updated and is now called "X Man: The Elon Musk origin Story".

    Briefly, if you think his dad is bad, wait until you meet his grandfather. The programme considers the influences of the 1930s Technocratic Movement, the significance of the alphabet (! yes, really!) the symbolism of comic books and various concepts of Master Races, and the way they have all helped to form young Elon.
    Sounds like complete drivel and of no use in explaining those parts of Musk that make him interesting (cars and rockets) as opposed to just another golf club Boer. May the Lord preserve us from historians doing cod psychology.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,706
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    I sense Labour are learning on the job. They seem to be getting incrementally better and with an understanding of how to strike a balance between following public opinion and leading it.

    I have a feeling they are now listening to Blair who until Iraq was the master of the genre with their in-house pollsters led by Philip Gould. Find out where the public are and where they can be taken to.

    Farage is a mountebank who glitters in the absense of an alternative. The chances of a Party led by him going the distance seem very slight. At the moment with Labour and the Libs holding the centre ground short of a Tory revival I can't see an alternative to the next government being a Labour one

    Yes, I think that true. The last month or two is showing a bit more cohesion and action from the Starmer government after a pretty inept start. I think the fact that they are now leading in the chart in the header shows that.
    Really hope this is true. The worry for me is that because the Tories have done so much damage and the international head winds are poor, even an exceptional government would struggle to make much progress.
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