In office but not in power – politicalbetting.com

noneoftheabove said:

Nigelb said:

noneoftheabove said:

eek said:

Nigelb said:

Another GOP loon realises that not having read the bill you just voted for has drawbacks.
https://x.com/Ike_Saul/status/1929961463466340847

Welcome to the US where big additions to bills can be inserted at the last second before people are asked to vote on it

Its 1100 pages of US legalese (worse than UK legalese). It was significantly modified late on 21 May and voted on in the morning of 22 May. Without wishing to defend MTG, I'd suggest the number who read it and understood it in full before voting is most likely 0 and certainly no more than single figures.

The process is the problem here rather than the individuals, even taking into account an unusual number of them are loons.

The deep flaws in the bill - and the fact that a number of seriously dodgy measures were added - were well known before the vote.
The GOPer who passed it, now lining up to say they don't like it, are reprehensible.

The fact they didn't read every word is in this particular case, irrelevant. This wasn't sprung on them; it was a massive omnibus bill by design, that the congressional party bought into.

Criticising MTG for being a loon who backs Trumps agenda, and presumably trusts his to make decisions, is of course fine. But the story being amplified wasn't that but that MTG was somehow incompetent for not reading the bill.

wooliedyed said:

FF43 said:

Frank_Booth said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Cleverly to make a speech backing net zero in direct challenge to Kemi 'Rather than backing his leader’s decision to drop support for the UK reaching net zero carbon emissions by 2050, he will say that: “Conservative environmentalism doesn’t mean a choice between growth and sustainability.”

It comes as a recent Survation poll found 22% of Tory and 19% of all voters say he would be a better leader than Badenoch (27% of Tory and 18% of all voters say the same of Jenrick and 60% of Tory and 33% of all voters say the same about Boris).
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/04/cleverly-direct-challenge-badenoch-net-zero-centre-farage/

A very smart move by Mr "cos it's a shithole". "Net Zero" is a catastrophic piece of branding that needs evolving. But the goal of pursuing clean energy is the future, and there's a very obvious case to be made for the UK to become a net energy exporter of clean energy generated for buttons. And as we invest in this technology we can then export it.

What is the future for oil and gas? Regardless of the political shenanigans we're on the downslope with north sea production. It is running down, it's just a question of how long we can extend the slope before it inevitably declines into irrelevance. Keep drilling - and I would issue licences based on oil & gas brought ashore and kept here. But that can't be the way forward, regardless of how many low-information voters can be gaslit.

Net zero is not a catastrophic piece of branding. It is a clear policy. Is it do-able? Without an energy crisis or crippling our economy? That's the debate.

The problem with Net Zero as a branding is that it is a presented as a binary choice and an outcome rather than a trend. If you don't get to zero you have failed when actually decarbonisation through electrification using renewable sources is a set of investment decisions, where avoiding climate change is just one consideration.

Of course we can't avoid climate change anyway. Regardless of whether our activities impacts it, climate change of some degree is an entirely natural process. Indeed any human attempt to completely halt climate change could be as damaging as human activity that may be accelerating it

Theuniondivvie said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

OldKingCole said:

wooliedyed said:

Social media currently enjoying the videos of very bored people being forced to listen to Reeves drivel this morning.

Mrs C made very much the same comment during the one 'clock news yesterday, while watching Starmer make his speech to the staff at an industrial workplace of some sort in Glasgow. If ever a group of people clearly didn't want to be there ......

Not sure going to a Govan shipyard to drop the good news that 12 attack subs are going to be built in a place that isn't Govan would put much a smile on the faces of the locals.

The way modern ships are built, it's perfectly feasible for components / parts to be built around the place. In the same way the QE2 carriers were built in parts, in places like Portsmouth, Birkenhead, Appledore and Portsmouth, before being assembled at Rosyth. Whether the subs will be built in that manner is another matter...

(ISTR the Germans had some (ahem) problems when they tried building their Type 21 boats in that manner, late in the war.)

Yes but afaik Govan has no history of building sub modules, the BBC puff piece mentioned Barrow-in-Furness and Derby for the attack subs. If you’re going to do pork barrel go to the place that’s getting the pork is one of the first lessons of low politicking.
Additionally there’s quite an important by-election for SLab taking place less than 20 miles from Govan, you’d have thought Sir Keir might have found time to have sprinkled some of his special brand of fairy dust there.

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

vik said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

But in the real world, it's the Israelis doing the mass-killing.

In the real world the Israelis are going after Hamas who did the mass-killing and still have hostages. As they bloody should.

In the real world the innocents are being denied the right to seek refuge in neighbouring nations as normally happens in wars.

In the real world innocents are being used as human shields by Hamas.

If the Gazans leave & seek refuge elsewhere, then the Israeli government will never allow them to return to Gaza.

Defenders of the Israeli government are not operating in good faith when they make this argument.

A permanent displacement and ethnic cleansing of Gaza is part of the official policy of the Netenyahu government (and also, now the Trump government).

If the neighbouring Arab countries allow any Gazans to enter their territory, then they would be complicit in this ethnic cleansing.

BartholomewRoberts said:

vik said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

But in the real world, it's the Israelis doing the mass-killing.

In the real world the Israelis are going after Hamas who did the mass-killing and still have hostages. As they bloody should.

In the real world the innocents are being denied the right to seek refuge in neighbouring nations as normally happens in wars.

In the real world innocents are being used as human shields by Hamas.

If the Gazans leave & seek refuge elsewhere, then the Israeli government will never allow them to return to Gaza.

Defenders of the Israeli government are not operating in good faith when they make this argument.

A permanent displacement and ethnic cleansing of Gaza is part of the official policy of the Netenyahu government (and also, now the Trump government).

If the neighbouring Arab countries allow any Gazans to enter their territory, then they would be complicit in this ethnic cleansing.

So you'd rather they die instead to prove a point?

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/03/1161081

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-sexual-abuse-palestinian-prisoners-rcna165811

https://news.sky.com/story/24-palestinians-killed-by-israeli-fire-while-waiting-for-aid-distribution-says-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-13378432

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

vik said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

But in the real world, it's the Israelis doing the mass-killing.

In the real world the Israelis are going after Hamas who did the mass-killing and still have hostages. As they bloody should.

In the real world the innocents are being denied the right to seek refuge in neighbouring nations as normally happens in wars.

In the real world innocents are being used as human shields by Hamas.

If the Gazans leave & seek refuge elsewhere, then the Israeli government will never allow them to return to Gaza.

Defenders of the Israeli government are not operating in good faith when they make this argument.

A permanent displacement and ethnic cleansing of Gaza is part of the official policy of the Netenyahu government (and also, now the Trump government).

If the neighbouring Arab countries allow any Gazans to enter their territory, then they would be complicit in this ethnic cleansing.

So you'd rather they die instead to prove a point?

Israel should stop mass-killing Palestinians.

As soon as Hamas is eliminated, like the Tamil Tigers were eliminated.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Barnesian said:

Frank_Booth said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Wait a minute. The Israelis offered a pretty generous deal to Arafat in 2000 which was rejected out of hand. They were rewarded with the second intifada. They withdrew from Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas. I think that helps to explain why we have Netanyahu now.

You are right. That's why we have Netanyahu now. He rewarded Hamas. It blew back on him. And now he needs to keep this murderous war going to keep himself out of jail. It is personal, and evil.

In an interview with Politico in 2023, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas.

At a Likud party conference in 2019, Benjamin Netanyahu said:
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."

Yes but my point is why did the Israelis repeatedly VOTE for Netanyahu. It appears they had concluded they didn't have a serious partner when it came to creating peace.

Ah, peace. Netanyahu repeatedly called for peace-maker Rabin to be eliminated, which was actually what happened.

Cicero said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

OldKingCole said:

wooliedyed said:

Social media currently enjoying the videos of very bored people being forced to listen to Reeves drivel this morning.

Mrs C made very much the same comment during the one 'clock news yesterday, while watching Starmer make his speech to the staff at an industrial workplace of some sort in Glasgow. If ever a group of people clearly didn't want to be there ......

Not sure going to a Govan shipyard to drop the good news that 12 attack subs are going to be built in a place that isn't Govan would put much a smile on the faces of the locals.

The way modern ships are built, it's perfectly feasible for components / parts to be built around the place. In the same way the QE2 carriers were built in parts, in places like Portsmouth, Birkenhead, Appledore and Portsmouth, before being assembled at Rosyth. Whether the subs will be built in that manner is another matter...

(ISTR the Germans had some (ahem) problems when they tried building their Type 21 boats in that manner, late in the war.)

Yes but afaik Govan has no history of building sub modules, the BBC puff piece mentioned Barrow-in-Furness and Derby for the attack subs. If you’re going to do pork barrel go to the place that’s getting the pork is one of the first lessons of low politicking.
Additionally there’s quite an important by-election for SLab taking place less than 20 miles from Govan, you’d have thought Sir Keir might have found time to have sprinkled some of his special brand of fairy dust there.

I'm always bemused by the Derby part of that. A certain complex of buildings off Raynesway in Derby has *very* high, if understated, security.

Of course it does, its where Rolls Royce, who make submarine mini reactors, are based.

Its the same technology for the mini reactors for nuclear generation of electricity, but so far RR have not landed too many orders for them, despite trying to be members of at least two consortia. Now they have so much work on subs, they are likely to lose interest in mini-nuke power stations, and yet another UK lead in technology will be wasted.

stjohn said:

From the previous thread.

"I love Christmas for all the reasons brilliantly articulated in Tim Minchin’s song Drinking white wine in the sun. It is a time for family, friends, excess and fun. As long as you don’t let that religious stuff spoil it it is the best time of the year".

@DavidL

I'd not heard of Tim Minchin before. Somehow a lot of life seems to pass me by, despite (maybe because of?) reading the comments here on PB on a fairly regular basis.

Anyway I googled Minchin, found the song (which I really like, being a rather sentimental soul myself) and below it there was a link to buying tickets to see him in concert. This Monday at Symphony Hall in Birmingham! Which is a 50 minute walk from where I live. I think he will have travelled over 10,000 miles from Sydney Australia to be there - so I don't think it's unreasonable that my wife and I amble 2 and a half miles from our armchairs to do our bit to make the meeting happen.

I will report back after the event.

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Barnesian said:

Frank_Booth said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Wait a minute. The Israelis offered a pretty generous deal to Arafat in 2000 which was rejected out of hand. They were rewarded with the second intifada. They withdrew from Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas. I think that helps to explain why we have Netanyahu now.

You are right. That's why we have Netanyahu now. He rewarded Hamas. It blew back on him. And now he needs to keep this murderous war going to keep himself out of jail. It is personal, and evil.

In an interview with Politico in 2023, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas.

At a Likud party conference in 2019, Benjamin Netanyahu said:
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."

Yes but my point is why did the Israelis repeatedly VOTE for Netanyahu. It appears they had concluded they didn't have a serious partner when it came to creating peace.

Ah, peace. Netanyahu repeatedly called for peace-maker Rabin to be eliminated, which was actually what happened.

Sorry but saying (and I've heard multiple people do it) that the chances of peace died with Rabin's assassination is nonsense. There was an offer on the table in 2000. The Palestinians didn't appear interested.

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

rottenborough said:

One for @Leon

There are clearly ways in which Europe’s problems and divides are deeper than our own, with economic and demographic trends that portend darker possibilities, and the establishment attempt to keep populist forces at bay may end up remembered as accelerating liberal Europe’s downfall.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/03/opinion/europe-civil-war.html

Cicero said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

OldKingCole said:

wooliedyed said:

Social media currently enjoying the videos of very bored people being forced to listen to Reeves drivel this morning.

Mrs C made very much the same comment during the one 'clock news yesterday, while watching Starmer make his speech to the staff at an industrial workplace of some sort in Glasgow. If ever a group of people clearly didn't want to be there ......

Not sure going to a Govan shipyard to drop the good news that 12 attack subs are going to be built in a place that isn't Govan would put much a smile on the faces of the locals.

The way modern ships are built, it's perfectly feasible for components / parts to be built around the place. In the same way the QE2 carriers were built in parts, in places like Portsmouth, Birkenhead, Appledore and Portsmouth, before being assembled at Rosyth. Whether the subs will be built in that manner is another matter...

(ISTR the Germans had some (ahem) problems when they tried building their Type 21 boats in that manner, late in the war.)

Yes but afaik Govan has no history of building sub modules, the BBC puff piece mentioned Barrow-in-Furness and Derby for the attack subs. If you’re going to do pork barrel go to the place that’s getting the pork is one of the first lessons of low politicking.
Additionally there’s quite an important by-election for SLab taking place less than 20 miles from Govan, you’d have thought Sir Keir might have found time to have sprinkled some of his special brand of fairy dust there.

I'm always bemused by the Derby part of that. A certain complex of buildings off Raynesway in Derby has *very* high, if understated, security.

Of course it does, its where Rolls Royce, who make submarine mini reactors, are based.

(Snip)

bondegezou said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Just on another call. Pride Month again.

Jesus.

Do you work for MI6?

https://x.com/ChiefMI6/status/1929795380696305900

To mark Pride month, and to stand in solidarity with our LGBTQ+ colleagues, #MI6 is proudly flying the Pride flag from Vauxhall Cross, alongside the Union Flag, for the whole month of June. Your sexual orientation is no bar to you working and thriving at MI6 #Pride2025

There's a clear opening for Reform's DOGE-style chainsaws. Of course, they'd not save money on the flag since they've already bought that, and the wages of the chap who raises and lowers flags on the South Bank are another sunk cost, and Elon doesn't charge by the tweet. So no actual savings.

Given DOGE is one of the biggest failures in political history, it is notable that Reform UK think it’s a brand worth associating with.

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

You're saying it's a hoax because the perpetrators say it's a hoax?

Where's the evidence?

In October 2023 we were told that a Gazan hospital had been bombed killing over 400 people. When daylight emerged the next day it was quite clear that at most a small rocket had landed in a car park. If authorities can lie on that scale what is the point of believing anything they say? From that point onwards I decided to believe nothing coming out of Gaza without good evidence to back it up.

Mexicanpete said:

Outrage in Wales. Big Pit is charging (since April) visitors £8, and the former Cardiff Bay Aqua park in being foisted upon Cosmeston Lakes. Opposed by the burghers of Penarth and ducks.

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

You're saying it's a hoax because the perpetrators say it's a hoax?

Where's the evidence?

In October 2023 we were told that a Gazan hospital had been bombed killing over 400 people. When daylight emerged the next day it was quite clear that at most a small rocket had landed in a car park. If authorities can lie on that scale what is the point of believing anything they say? From that point onwards I decided to believe nothing coming out of Gaza without good evidence to back it up.

We were told a Gazan hospital had Hamas tunnels underneath it and that’s why it had to be bombed. It is now quite clear that this wasn’t true: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If the IDF can lie on that scale, what is the point of believing anything they say?

bondegezou said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

bondegezou said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Just on another call. Pride Month again.

Jesus.

Do you work for MI6?

https://x.com/ChiefMI6/status/1929795380696305900

To mark Pride month, and to stand in solidarity with our LGBTQ+ colleagues, #MI6 is proudly flying the Pride flag from Vauxhall Cross, alongside the Union Flag, for the whole month of June. Your sexual orientation is no bar to you working and thriving at MI6 #Pride2025

There's a clear opening for Reform's DOGE-style chainsaws. Of course, they'd not save money on the flag since they've already bought that, and the wages of the chap who raises and lowers flags on the South Bank are another sunk cost, and Elon doesn't charge by the tweet. So no actual savings.

Given DOGE is one of the biggest failures in political history, it is notable that Reform UK think it’s a brand worth associating with.

What was it about this well-publicised effort to cut wasteful and counterproductive pending and shrink the size of the state that seems to have offended you so much?

DOGE said it would cut at least 2 trillion dollars. Based on their own numbers, they managed less than 10% of that. Their own numbers turned out to be frequently fallacious, so the actual figure is less than 5% of their stated aim. Indeed, DOGE has frequently cost the US government money. How is that not a massive failure?

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

You're saying it's a hoax because the perpetrators say it's a hoax?

Where's the evidence?

In October 2023 we were told that a Gazan hospital had been bombed killing over 400 people. When daylight emerged the next day it was quite clear that at most a small rocket had landed in a car park. If authorities can lie on that scale what is the point of believing anything they say? From that point onwards I decided to believe nothing coming out of Gaza without good evidence to back it up.

We were told a Gazan hospital had Hamas tunnels underneath it and that’s why it had to be bombed. It is now quite clear that this wasn’t true: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If the IDF can lie on that scale, what is the point of believing anything they say?

Not a lie, they got many Hamas leaders in the strike. They were out by a matter of meters not miles and it was a school, not a hospital that Hamas were using as a human shield.

For weeks, you told us about the tunnels under the hospital justifying the strike. There were NO tunnels under the hospital.

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

bondegezou said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Just on another call. Pride Month again.

Jesus.

Do you work for MI6?

https://x.com/ChiefMI6/status/1929795380696305900

To mark Pride month, and to stand in solidarity with our LGBTQ+ colleagues, #MI6 is proudly flying the Pride flag from Vauxhall Cross, alongside the Union Flag, for the whole month of June. Your sexual orientation is no bar to you working and thriving at MI6 #Pride2025

There's a clear opening for Reform's DOGE-style chainsaws. Of course, they'd not save money on the flag since they've already bought that, and the wages of the chap who raises and lowers flags on the South Bank are another sunk cost, and Elon doesn't charge by the tweet. So no actual savings.

Given DOGE is one of the biggest failures in political history, it is notable that Reform UK think it’s a brand worth associating with.

What was it about this well-publicised effort to cut wasteful and counterproductive pending and shrink the size of the state that seems to have offended you so much?

DOGE said it would cut at least 2 trillion dollars. Based on their own numbers, they managed less than 10% of that. Their own numbers turned out to be frequently fallacious, so the actual figure is less than 5% of their stated aim. Indeed, DOGE has frequently cost the US government money. How is that not a massive failure?

Over promise under deliver is the norm for politics, but if they saved even tens of billions of dollars, let alone hundreds of billions how is that not a massive success?

About the only thing this administration has done right, and now all going to be pissed away by Trump's asinine bill, but saving hundreds of billions of dollars isn't a failure.

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

You're saying it's a hoax because the perpetrators say it's a hoax?

Where's the evidence?

In October 2023 we were told that a Gazan hospital had been bombed killing over 400 people. When daylight emerged the next day it was quite clear that at most a small rocket had landed in a car park. If authorities can lie on that scale what is the point of believing anything they say? From that point onwards I decided to believe nothing coming out of Gaza without good evidence to back it up.

We were told a Gazan hospital had Hamas tunnels underneath it and that’s why it had to be bombed. It is now quite clear that this wasn’t true: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If the IDF can lie on that scale, what is the point of believing anything they say?

Not a lie, they got many Hamas leaders in the strike. They were out by a matter of meters not miles and it was a school, not a hospital that Hamas were using as a human shield.

For weeks, you told us about the tunnels under the hospital justifying the strike. There were NO tunnels under the hospital.

No, the tunnels were just immediately next to the hospital under a school instead. 🤦‍♂️

Fog of war.

All you've done is verify that Hamas are using civilian infrastructure as human shields and that innocents will inevitably get caught in the crossfires when Israel goes after them, exactly as I said.

BartholomewRoberts said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

williamglenn said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Perhaps it's the other way round. Perhaps the perception is that Nigel is setting the agenda, but that's only because immigration is the talking point of the moment and Nigel is heavily associated with that. When the talking point moves on - as such things tend to - Nigel's perceived influence may wane.

Demographic change isn't a just talking point but the most important political fact about Britain in 2025 and beyond.

Yes, the ageing population and how we can support them.

Axing the Triple Lock and ensuring work pays as well as benefits do would be a good start.

The minimum wage for a full time worker working 40 hours a week is now £25,396 and the lowest earners don't pay tax and those on UC have to be looking for work or they get sanctioned

40 hours a week is more than 9-5 since minimum wage workers don't generally get paid for breaks.

And for people on UC working 16 hours a week, which is a great many people, HMRC will take about 100% of their earnings they work over 16 so why the hell do you expect people to work 40 hours instead of 16 in that scenario? People are rational.

Its the Laffer Curve in action. Why work more hours if you won't get paid any money for it?

Not since UC which reduces benefits only gradually as you earn more not all in one go. You also now pay no income tax on earnings under £12,570

Yes, under UC, your ignorance is showing again.

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

You're saying it's a hoax because the perpetrators say it's a hoax?

Where's the evidence?

In October 2023 we were told that a Gazan hospital had been bombed killing over 400 people. When daylight emerged the next day it was quite clear that at most a small rocket had landed in a car park. If authorities can lie on that scale what is the point of believing anything they say? From that point onwards I decided to believe nothing coming out of Gaza without good evidence to back it up.

We were told a Gazan hospital had Hamas tunnels underneath it and that’s why it had to be bombed. It is now quite clear that this wasn’t true: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If the IDF can lie on that scale, what is the point of believing anything they say?

Not a lie, they got many Hamas leaders in the strike. They were out by a matter of meters not miles and it was a school, not a hospital that Hamas were using as a human shield.

For weeks, you told us about the tunnels under the hospital justifying the strike. There were NO tunnels under the hospital.

No, the tunnels were just immediately next to the hospital under a school instead. 🤦‍♂️

Fog of war.

All you've done is verify that Hamas are using civilian infrastructure as human shields and that innocents will inevitably get caught in the crossfires when Israel goes after them, exactly as I said.

So, bombing the hospital was unnecessary, pointless and possibly a war crime.

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

bondegezou said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Just on another call. Pride Month again.

Jesus.

Do you work for MI6?

https://x.com/ChiefMI6/status/1929795380696305900

To mark Pride month, and to stand in solidarity with our LGBTQ+ colleagues, #MI6 is proudly flying the Pride flag from Vauxhall Cross, alongside the Union Flag, for the whole month of June. Your sexual orientation is no bar to you working and thriving at MI6 #Pride2025

There's a clear opening for Reform's DOGE-style chainsaws. Of course, they'd not save money on the flag since they've already bought that, and the wages of the chap who raises and lowers flags on the South Bank are another sunk cost, and Elon doesn't charge by the tweet. So no actual savings.

Given DOGE is one of the biggest failures in political history, it is notable that Reform UK think it’s a brand worth associating with.

What was it about this well-publicised effort to cut wasteful and counterproductive pending and shrink the size of the state that seems to have offended you so much?

DOGE said it would cut at least 2 trillion dollars. Based on their own numbers, they managed less than 10% of that. Their own numbers turned out to be frequently fallacious, so the actual figure is less than 5% of their stated aim. Indeed, DOGE has frequently cost the US government money. How is that not a massive failure?

Over promise under deliver is the norm for politics, but if they saved even tens of billions of dollars, let alone hundreds of billions how is that not a massive success?

About the only thing this administration has done right, and now all going to be pissed away by Trump's asinine bill, but saving hundreds of billions of dollars isn't a failure.

"[S]aving hundreds of billions of dollars" may or may not be a failure, but they haven't saved hundreds of billions of dollars. The BBC estimates that provable cuts are only $33 billion.

Also, to save implies you have cut unnecessary spending. The drop in tax revenue from the DOGE IRS cuts alone has been estimated at around $500 billion, so DOGE has net cost the government. Many of the other cuts, e.g. to the National Science Foundation, are probably deeply unwise in terms of the country's long-term success.

DOGE, by any metric, is a massive failure.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Barnesian said:

Frank_Booth said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Wait a minute. The Israelis offered a pretty generous deal to Arafat in 2000 which was rejected out of hand. They were rewarded with the second intifada. They withdrew from Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas. I think that helps to explain why we have Netanyahu now.

You are right. That's why we have Netanyahu now. He rewarded Hamas. It blew back on him. And now he needs to keep this murderous war going to keep himself out of jail. It is personal, and evil.

In an interview with Politico in 2023, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas.

At a Likud party conference in 2019, Benjamin Netanyahu said:
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."

You seem to be arguing that Netanyahu was wrong to bolster Hamas and is wrong to fight Hamas. Other than a belief that Netanyahu is wrong, where's the consistency?

I say that Netanyahu was wrong to bolster Hamas and right to seek to eliminate Hamas. That's at least consistent.

If Hamas won't lay down their arms, then innocent people will inevitably die in the crossfire unless they get refuge elsewhere.

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

You're saying it's a hoax because the perpetrators say it's a hoax?

Where's the evidence?

In October 2023 we were told that a Gazan hospital had been bombed killing over 400 people. When daylight emerged the next day it was quite clear that at most a small rocket had landed in a car park. If authorities can lie on that scale what is the point of believing anything they say? From that point onwards I decided to believe nothing coming out of Gaza without good evidence to back it up.

We were told a Gazan hospital had Hamas tunnels underneath it and that’s why it had to be bombed. It is now quite clear that this wasn’t true: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If the IDF can lie on that scale, what is the point of believing anything they say?

Not a lie, they got many Hamas leaders in the strike. They were out by a matter of meters not miles and it was a school, not a hospital that Hamas were using as a human shield.

For weeks, you told us about the tunnels under the hospital justifying the strike. There were NO tunnels under the hospital.

No, the tunnels were just immediately next to the hospital under a school instead. 🤦‍♂️

Fog of war.

All you've done is verify that Hamas are using civilian infrastructure as human shields and that innocents will inevitably get caught in the crossfires when Israel goes after them, exactly as I said.

So, bombing the hospital was unnecessary, pointless and possibly a war crime.

BartholomewRoberts said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

HYUFD said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

williamglenn said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Perhaps it's the other way round. Perhaps the perception is that Nigel is setting the agenda, but that's only because immigration is the talking point of the moment and Nigel is heavily associated with that. When the talking point moves on - as such things tend to - Nigel's perceived influence may wane.

Demographic change isn't a just talking point but the most important political fact about Britain in 2025 and beyond.

Yes, the ageing population and how we can support them.

Axing the Triple Lock and ensuring work pays as well as benefits do would be a good start.

The minimum wage for a full time worker working 40 hours a week is now £25,396 and the lowest earners don't pay tax and those on UC have to be looking for work or they get sanctioned

40 hours a week is more than 9-5 since minimum wage workers don't generally get paid for breaks.

And for people on UC working 16 hours a week, which is a great many people, HMRC will take about 100% of their earnings they work over 16 so why the hell do you expect people to work 40 hours instead of 16 in that scenario? People are rational.

Its the Laffer Curve in action. Why work more hours if you won't get paid any money for it?

Not since UC which reduces benefits only gradually as you earn more not all in one go. You also now pay no income tax on earnings under £12,570

Yes, under UC, your ignorance is showing again.

'For UC claimants required to work, the minimum number of hours was increased from 15 to 18, on Monday 13 May.

The rule change means 180,000 people will have to work more or risk losing their benefits, the Department for Work and Pensions says.

The 18-hour minimum applies to people earning the National Living Wage (£11.44 for those aged 21 or over).

Someone earning more per hour can work fewer hours, as long as their total earnings meet a level called the Administrative Earnings Threshold (AET).

The AET now stands at £892, which is what you would earn in a month if you worked for 18 hours a week at the minimum wage.'

Over the work allowance too not all benefits are lost either but tapered

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41487126

Pathetic tinkering at the edges. Anyone working those 18 hours is still going to be facing a combined real tax rate of 100%, so people will go from doing 16 hours and no more, to 18 and no more.

That's not much of an improvement.

MattW said:

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

bondegezou said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Just on another call. Pride Month again.

Jesus.

Do you work for MI6?

https://x.com/ChiefMI6/status/1929795380696305900

To mark Pride month, and to stand in solidarity with our LGBTQ+ colleagues, #MI6 is proudly flying the Pride flag from Vauxhall Cross, alongside the Union Flag, for the whole month of June. Your sexual orientation is no bar to you working and thriving at MI6 #Pride2025

There's a clear opening for Reform's DOGE-style chainsaws. Of course, they'd not save money on the flag since they've already bought that, and the wages of the chap who raises and lowers flags on the South Bank are another sunk cost, and Elon doesn't charge by the tweet. So no actual savings.

Given DOGE is one of the biggest failures in political history, it is notable that Reform UK think it’s a brand worth associating with.

What was it about this well-publicised effort to cut wasteful and counterproductive pending and shrink the size of the state that seems to have offended you so much?

DOGE said it would cut at least 2 trillion dollars. Based on their own numbers, they managed less than 10% of that. Their own numbers turned out to be frequently fallacious, so the actual figure is less than 5% of their stated aim. Indeed, DOGE has frequently cost the US government money. How is that not a massive failure?

Over promise under deliver is the norm for politics, but if they saved even tens of billions of dollars, let alone hundreds of billions how is that not a massive success?

About the only thing this administration has done right, and now all going to be pissed away by Trump's asinine bill, but saving hundreds of billions of dollars isn't a failure.

"[S]aving hundreds of billions of dollars" may or may not be a failure, but they haven't saved hundreds of billions of dollars. The BBC estimates that provable cuts are only $33 billion.

Also, to save implies you have cut unnecessary spending. The drop in tax revenue from the DOGE IRS cuts alone has been estimated at around $500 billion, so DOGE has net cost the government. Many of the other cuts, e.g. to the National Science Foundation, are probably deeply unwise in terms of the country's long-term success.

DOGE, by any metric, is a massive failure.

It's not even clear whether these are legitimate savings. As you say, is gutting the USA's future a "saving"?

Plus much of it has been done illegally, and there are items such as commandeering office buildings owned by independent agencies.

And the costs of restitution and compensation to victims of illegal actions are not covered.

theProle said:

JosiasJessop said:

FPT:

MattW said:

JosiasJessop said:

MattW said:

Eabhal said:

MattW said:

Nigelb said:

SandyRentool said:

Government announcing funding for a load of public transport projects that were previously announced by Rishi Sunak with no intention of funding them.

If she also announces a cut in the carbon capture boondoggle, I might actually start to reassess her.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/04/rachel-reeves-unveils-15bn-for-trams-trains-and-buses-outside-london
..Rachel Reeves is announcing £15bn for trams, trains and buses outside London as she launches a charm offensive to persuade fractious Labour MPs that her spending review will not be a return to austerity.

The chancellor has begun meeting groups of backbenchers to argue that the money, part of a £113bn investment in capital projects over the rest of the parliament including transport, homes and energy, would only have happened under Labour.

Just three Whitehall departments are still to agree their multi-year budgets with the Treasury before the spending review, the Guardian understands, with the home secretary, Yvette Cooper; the energy secretary, Ed Miliband; and the housing secretary, Angela Rayner, holding out...

That £15bn for trains and trams outside London looks very positive. A big chunk of it needs to be trams and light rail.

But there will be a few battles around groups such as Transport 2000 (whatever they are called now) trying to nick multiuser rail-trails back). We had an attempted mugging to grab the Monsal Trail in Derbyshire for a proposed railway, despite it being used by 300-600k people per annum. When I last heard it had been fought off, but I am not fully up to date - they will be back.

Rail Trails of course being ideal accessible (and safe family cycling) trails, like towpaths.

I can see RefUK Councils (and TBH others) falling for that one - oooh, big exciting machines - if they get around to doing any projects, and not being especially good at listening to different stakeholders. They like easy answers.

That's why he need the whole damn lot of Local Authority managed trails made into Public Rights of Way by statute. I have not won that one yet !

We have a similar upcoming battle in Edinburgh. The principle should always to put trams on roads, not paths, if the intention is to reduce car use. Learn the lesson from Dublin - they don't work as well if hidden away down an embankment.

For railways, I think it's harder to make that argument. 600,000 is a lot of people though, so you'd hope that alternative provision is put in place - the Australians manage to do this with new infrastructure, and so did HS2.

The trams work better on roads because that is where people are is an interesting argument. Nottingham has in general done this really well imo, but they already had "green corridors" in a number of places in the early 20c or 19C - I'm not sure of reasons why.

It's in the Peak National Park, which should help - so I think the Local Planning authority is the Peak Park itself.

It's one question around us till need to be developing decent networks of separated mobility tracks in a country with chaotic transport policy. Defending an existing network would be easier, but here we are.

And Equal Rights to transport services (including accessible trails) are presumably on the Farage list of things to destroy by killing the Equalities Act 2010. I'm not sure if they are on the DOLGE list of "inefficiencies".

Many locals do not actually like the Monsal Trail - or at least bits that are not *their* bit. The area is already very busy in summer, with sometimes massive traffic queues. The trail has just acted as a draw for more people to come, increasing the traffic problems.

Imagine if there was a nice railway line that could bring people up into the very heart of the Peak District from Sheffield, Manchester, or even London, as the Hope Valley line does for the area further north?

(I wasn't quite a local, even when I lived in Derbyshire.)

I think spending money on grabbing one of the few decent, used things, to destroy it, is perhaps a mistake.

I would argue the other way - imagine if there was an entire network of accessible paths - everywhere, with no barriers keeping disabled and other people out, rather than just the Monsal Trail.

Then there would be more visitors, great for the economy, and they would spread out more. Done reasonably, including access routes etc, and traffic would fall.

Being a little more ambitious, imagine if that were everywhere - mobility tracks, ideally separated, as alternatives to every A and B road in the country. That's one element of what I want to see, and the road length in England is only 80k miles for A and B roads.

One practical idea I do wonder about is if some of these proposals could use narrow gauge.

It is not one of the "few decent, used things". Nearby are two other, very long, active travel routes along disused railways - the Tissington Trail and the High Peak Trail. The entire area is crisscrossed with routes, including the Pennine Bridleway. The area has many routes for cyclists and walkers.

Also, unless they've opened the extension towards Matlock, the trail starts in the middle of nowhere and ends even more in the middle of nowhere. It is not like an active travel route in a city, used by commuters: it is a *destination*. People travel - by car - to use it.

It makes the transport situation far worse, not better.

No, narrow gauge would be f-all use. As you well know for cyclists, we need *networks*, not disjointed sections.

The suggestion that the Monsal trail is either/or is daft.
It was a double track main line, it would be perfectly feasible to put it back as single track with passing loops, with the trail on the space originally used for the other track.

It is a really obvious missing transport link, and it would be dirt cheap to put back, the only thing missing is the political will.

Fairliered said:

theProle said:

JosiasJessop said:

FPT:

MattW said:

JosiasJessop said:

MattW said:

Eabhal said:

MattW said:

Nigelb said:

SandyRentool said:

Government announcing funding for a load of public transport projects that were previously announced by Rishi Sunak with no intention of funding them.

If she also announces a cut in the carbon capture boondoggle, I might actually start to reassess her.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/04/rachel-reeves-unveils-15bn-for-trams-trains-and-buses-outside-london
..Rachel Reeves is announcing £15bn for trams, trains and buses outside London as she launches a charm offensive to persuade fractious Labour MPs that her spending review will not be a return to austerity.

The chancellor has begun meeting groups of backbenchers to argue that the money, part of a £113bn investment in capital projects over the rest of the parliament including transport, homes and energy, would only have happened under Labour.

Just three Whitehall departments are still to agree their multi-year budgets with the Treasury before the spending review, the Guardian understands, with the home secretary, Yvette Cooper; the energy secretary, Ed Miliband; and the housing secretary, Angela Rayner, holding out...

That £15bn for trains and trams outside London looks very positive. A big chunk of it needs to be trams and light rail.

But there will be a few battles around groups such as Transport 2000 (whatever they are called now) trying to nick multiuser rail-trails back). We had an attempted mugging to grab the Monsal Trail in Derbyshire for a proposed railway, despite it being used by 300-600k people per annum. When I last heard it had been fought off, but I am not fully up to date - they will be back.

Rail Trails of course being ideal accessible (and safe family cycling) trails, like towpaths.

I can see RefUK Councils (and TBH others) falling for that one - oooh, big exciting machines - if they get around to doing any projects, and not being especially good at listening to different stakeholders. They like easy answers.

That's why he need the whole damn lot of Local Authority managed trails made into Public Rights of Way by statute. I have not won that one yet !

We have a similar upcoming battle in Edinburgh. The principle should always to put trams on roads, not paths, if the intention is to reduce car use. Learn the lesson from Dublin - they don't work as well if hidden away down an embankment.

For railways, I think it's harder to make that argument. 600,000 is a lot of people though, so you'd hope that alternative provision is put in place - the Australians manage to do this with new infrastructure, and so did HS2.

The trams work better on roads because that is where people are is an interesting argument. Nottingham has in general done this really well imo, but they already had "green corridors" in a number of places in the early 20c or 19C - I'm not sure of reasons why.

It's in the Peak National Park, which should help - so I think the Local Planning authority is the Peak Park itself.

It's one question around us till need to be developing decent networks of separated mobility tracks in a country with chaotic transport policy. Defending an existing network would be easier, but here we are.

And Equal Rights to transport services (including accessible trails) are presumably on the Farage list of things to destroy by killing the Equalities Act 2010. I'm not sure if they are on the DOLGE list of "inefficiencies".

Many locals do not actually like the Monsal Trail - or at least bits that are not *their* bit. The area is already very busy in summer, with sometimes massive traffic queues. The trail has just acted as a draw for more people to come, increasing the traffic problems.

Imagine if there was a nice railway line that could bring people up into the very heart of the Peak District from Sheffield, Manchester, or even London, as the Hope Valley line does for the area further north?

(I wasn't quite a local, even when I lived in Derbyshire.)

I think spending money on grabbing one of the few decent, used things, to destroy it, is perhaps a mistake.

I would argue the other way - imagine if there was an entire network of accessible paths - everywhere, with no barriers keeping disabled and other people out, rather than just the Monsal Trail.

Then there would be more visitors, great for the economy, and they would spread out more. Done reasonably, including access routes etc, and traffic would fall.

Being a little more ambitious, imagine if that were everywhere - mobility tracks, ideally separated, as alternatives to every A and B road in the country. That's one element of what I want to see, and the road length in England is only 80k miles for A and B roads.

One practical idea I do wonder about is if some of these proposals could use narrow gauge.

It is not one of the "few decent, used things". Nearby are two other, very long, active travel routes along disused railways - the Tissington Trail and the High Peak Trail. The entire area is crisscrossed with routes, including the Pennine Bridleway. The area has many routes for cyclists and walkers.

Also, unless they've opened the extension towards Matlock, the trail starts in the middle of nowhere and ends even more in the middle of nowhere. It is not like an active travel route in a city, used by commuters: it is a *destination*. People travel - by car - to use it.

It makes the transport situation far worse, not better.

No, narrow gauge would be f-all use. As you well know for cyclists, we need *networks*, not disjointed sections.

The suggestion that the Monsal trail is either/or is daft.
It was a double track main line, it would be perfectly feasible to put it back as single track with passing loops, with the trail on the space originally used for the other track.

It is a really obvious missing transport link, and it would be dirt cheap to put back, the only thing missing is the political will.

The railway line between Airdrie and Bathgate was closed many years ago and subsequently converted to a cycle track. When the line was reopened, a new cycle track was built next to the line. Not difficult. Not expensive.

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

OldKingCole said:

wooliedyed said:

Social media currently enjoying the videos of very bored people being forced to listen to Reeves drivel this morning.

Mrs C made very much the same comment during the one 'clock news yesterday, while watching Starmer make his speech to the staff at an industrial workplace of some sort in Glasgow. If ever a group of people clearly didn't want to be there ......

Not sure going to a Govan shipyard to drop the good news that 12 attack subs are going to be built in a place that isn't Govan would put much a smile on the faces of the locals.

The way modern ships are built, it's perfectly feasible for components / parts to be built around the place. In the same way the QE2 carriers were built in parts, in places like Portsmouth, Birkenhead, Appledore and Portsmouth, before being assembled at Rosyth. Whether the subs will be built in that manner is another matter...

(ISTR the Germans had some (ahem) problems when they tried building their Type 21 boats in that manner, late in the war.)

Yes but afaik Govan has no history of building sub modules, the BBC puff piece mentioned Barrow-in-Furness and Derby for the attack subs. If you’re going to do pork barrel go to the place that’s getting the pork is one of the first lessons of low politicking.
Additionally there’s quite an important by-election for SLab taking place less than 20 miles from Govan, you’d have thought Sir Keir might have found time to have sprinkled some of his special brand of fairy dust there.

I'm always bemused by the Derby part of that. A certain complex of buildings off Raynesway in Derby has *very* high, if understated, security.

Of course it does, its where Rolls Royce, who make submarine mini reactors, are based.

Its the same technology for the mini reactors for nuclear generation of electricity, but so far RR have not landed too many orders for them, despite trying to be members of at least two consortia. Now they have so much work on subs, they are likely to lose interest in mini-nuke power stations, and yet another UK lead in technology will be wasted.

Why do we do this? Again and again and again. Throw our technology leadership away or sell it off.

MattW said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

JosiasJessop said:

Theuniondivvie said:

OldKingCole said:

wooliedyed said:

Social media currently enjoying the videos of very bored people being forced to listen to Reeves drivel this morning.

Mrs C made very much the same comment during the one 'clock news yesterday, while watching Starmer make his speech to the staff at an industrial workplace of some sort in Glasgow. If ever a group of people clearly didn't want to be there ......

Not sure going to a Govan shipyard to drop the good news that 12 attack subs are going to be built in a place that isn't Govan would put much a smile on the faces of the locals.

The way modern ships are built, it's perfectly feasible for components / parts to be built around the place. In the same way the QE2 carriers were built in parts, in places like Portsmouth, Birkenhead, Appledore and Portsmouth, before being assembled at Rosyth. Whether the subs will be built in that manner is another matter...

(ISTR the Germans had some (ahem) problems when they tried building their Type 21 boats in that manner, late in the war.)

Yes but afaik Govan has no history of building sub modules, the BBC puff piece mentioned Barrow-in-Furness and Derby for the attack subs. If you’re going to do pork barrel go to the place that’s getting the pork is one of the first lessons of low politicking.
Additionally there’s quite an important by-election for SLab taking place less than 20 miles from Govan, you’d have thought Sir Keir might have found time to have sprinkled some of his special brand of fairy dust there.

I'm always bemused by the Derby part of that. A certain complex of buildings off Raynesway in Derby has *very* high, if understated, security.

Of course it does, its where Rolls Royce, who make submarine mini reactors, are based.

Its the same technology for the mini reactors for nuclear generation of electricity, but so far RR have not landed too many orders for them, despite trying to be members of at least two consortia. Now they have so much work on subs, they are likely to lose interest in mini-nuke power stations, and yet another UK lead in technology will be wasted.

Why do we do this? Again and again and again. Throw our technology leadership away or sell it off.

Here's a submarine section for the Dreadnaughts arriving in Barrow last week:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/massive-submarine-section-makes-way-through-town/

Frank_Booth said:

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

You're saying it's a hoax because the perpetrators say it's a hoax?

Where's the evidence?

In October 2023 we were told that a Gazan hospital had been bombed killing over 400 people. When daylight emerged the next day it was quite clear that at most a small rocket had landed in a car park. If authorities can lie on that scale what is the point of believing anything they say? From that point onwards I decided to believe nothing coming out of Gaza without good evidence to back it up.

We were told a Gazan hospital had Hamas tunnels underneath it and that’s why it had to be bombed. It is now quite clear that this wasn’t true: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If the IDF can lie on that scale, what is the point of believing anything they say?

Not a lie, they got many Hamas leaders in the strike. They were out by a matter of meters not miles and it was a school, not a hospital that Hamas were using as a human shield.

For weeks, you told us about the tunnels under the hospital justifying the strike. There were NO tunnels under the hospital.

Not that particular hospital?

You appear to be so desperate to believe the IDF that you are now making up tunnels under different hospitals. Why don't you apply the same critical analysis to IDF claims that you do to Gazan claims?

The point is that Hamas have placed themselves adjacent to hospitals in Gaza for the obvious reason that they believe it protects them from Israeli bombing. I don't believe whatever the IDF say but their claims are rarely so far from the truth as those from the Gazan authorities.

There's something else here. You are very much an establishment figure. When one looks at the way Hamas has been building infrastructure around schools and hospitals in Gaza one has to ask what on earth all the western aid agencies and charities were doing with that going on under their noses all this time. It's about time questions were asked of people rather than this effort to rehabilitate UNRWA.

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

bondegezou said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

Frank_Booth said:

Sean_F said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Frank_Booth said:

occasionalranter said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

Frank_Booth said:

Roger said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Casino_Royale said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Roger said:

How long before the israelis destroy Greta's 'Freedom Flotilla'?.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/greta-thunberg-aboard-gaza-flotilla-doing-nothing-not-option

I like Greta. I like her intensity and passion.

I could comment on how this has nothing to do with climate change and, in general, how much of a dogmatic silly sausage she is - but I'm not going to. I am genuinely worried for her, though.

She's not dealing with Brits or Swedes here, but the Israelis who've boarded such vessels in the past and killed activists (unfortunately and with regret etc.)

This isn't a game. I hope she turns around.

I agree. She's playing with the big boys now, and that could get rough. The climate change gig does seem to have been knocked aside by her Gaza focus, and she needs to be careful to avoid the antisemitic tropes that she's sometimes been dragged into. Still, I like her style.

She doesn't need to worry about anti semitic tropes anymore. The israelis have used that card to destruction and no one takes any notice anymore. It's the new 'Nazis'.

David Mensa said to Krishna Guru-Merty last night in answer to the perfectly sensible question 'Do you think shooting starving people desperate for food is reasonable?'

'Do you hate Jews?'

Channel 4 isn't still repeating that farcical hoax story are they?

The fact you don't care about antisemitism in the UK really does sum up your lack of any moral compass, frankly.

Are you jewish?

Nope.

Uh-oh. PB's newly self-appointed Jewfinder General draws a blank.

I've commented on here since 2007. Prior to 2023 I rarely said anything about the middle east as I knew others were far more knowledgeable than I on the matter. Over the last 20 months I've sought to educate myself about it and pretty much everything I've learned has made me more sympathetic to Israel and appalled by the level of antisemitism both in the UK and elsewhere. And even more appalled by the indifference to it of those who should know better.

Both Israelis and the Palestinians want all of the land of Palestine/ancient Israel (delete as appropriate).

I don't see how that square is ever circled since neither want to compromise.

So, it will be fought out.

Netanyahu's government is almost as bad as Hamas.

No, Netanyahu is bad, but they're nowhere near as bad.

If Israel lays down its arms then Hamas would gladly kill every Jew from the river to the sea.
If Hamas lays down its arms, the conflict would be over.

Hamas' aim is to murder every Jew in the region.

Netanyahu's aim is to ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank, and his government will use starvation as a means to achieve that aim.

So yes, less bad, in the sense of being expulsionist, rather than exterminationist, but still pretty awful.

Well the Israelis do at least provide aid to the Gazans as opposed to Hamas who steal it. I haven't seen the kind of clear reporting of the IDF committing torture rape and massacres that seem commonplace among the Russian military. Perhaps you know otherwise?

Firing on people queuing for food, murdering medical staff and then trying to cover it up, killing children indiscriminately, and having ministers openly bragging about using starvation as a weapon, and wanting to expel the population, seems little different to the behaviour of Putin's government and armed forces.

Is that firing on people queuing for food verified? Wasn't that the hoax from a few days ago? Medical staff are in the firing line because Hamas base themselves adjacent to medical facilities. There are clearly repugnant views held within the government I grant you.

You're saying it's a hoax because the perpetrators say it's a hoax?

Where's the evidence?

In October 2023 we were told that a Gazan hospital had been bombed killing over 400 people. When daylight emerged the next day it was quite clear that at most a small rocket had landed in a car park. If authorities can lie on that scale what is the point of believing anything they say? From that point onwards I decided to believe nothing coming out of Gaza without good evidence to back it up.

We were told a Gazan hospital had Hamas tunnels underneath it and that’s why it had to be bombed. It is now quite clear that this wasn’t true: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-16/israeli-video-claimed-hamas-tunnels-gaza-hospital-different/105299312 If the IDF can lie on that scale, what is the point of believing anything they say?

Not a lie, they got many Hamas leaders in the strike. They were out by a matter of meters not miles and it was a school, not a hospital that Hamas were using as a human shield.

For weeks, you told us about the tunnels under the hospital justifying the strike. There were NO tunnels under the hospital.

No, the tunnels were just immediately next to the hospital under a school instead. 🤦‍♂️

Fog of war.

All you've done is verify that Hamas are using civilian infrastructure as human shields and that innocents will inevitably get caught in the crossfires when Israel goes after them, exactly as I said.

So, bombing the hospital was unnecessary, pointless and possibly a war crime.