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Saying no to Boris Johnson – politicalbetting.com

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  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,713
    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    I love the idea of a ballet on strike action.

    The Nutcracker meets socialist realism.

    I saw a production of Marriage of Figaro at the Edinburgh festival last year which tried to do that with opera. I'm still suffering flashbacks.

    The recent death of Grigorovich at 98 is a reminder that under socialist realism and its grim successors real ballet of stellar quality survived. And survives. Floreat Bolshoi.
    The one partial redeeming feature of the Soviet Communists was the value they placed on great art, music, and literature.
    I can't imagine they cared about the cultural life of the proles. I would imagine it was a way of competing with the West (as with their attitude to sport ie doping) and partly to give the nomenklatura the idea they were living a good life
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,253
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    Yes.

    Especially if we dramatically cut class sizes.

    But that won't happen. It would be expensive in the short term, whatever the substantial longer term gains, and no politician is willing to spend upfront to make big money later (exhibit A - HS2).
    But this is stupid. We have people genuinely saying "we can't afford teachers" but then accepting that we pay *more* to crisis manage the operational issues caused by not having enough teachers. The same in the NHSes, Criminal Justice etc etc.

    We're spending - as @BartholomewRoberts rightly points out - record sums whilst simultaneously having desperate no cash crises at the front line. A wholesale rethink is needed which means spending more now to save longer term. Any business would just get on with it, but we're stuck in this absurd situation where "we can't afford to sped lots" prevails as we spend lotsandlots as a consequence.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,423
    Dopermean said:

    He won the toss and bowled! HAHAHAHAHA
    Could have been over in 30 minutes if they'd batted.
    If your team is that bad it's polite to let the others bat first as you need to make an afternoon of it to earn your cucumber sandwiches and sponge cake.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,872

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    Yes.

    Especially if we dramatically cut class sizes.

    But that won't happen. It would be expensive in the short term, whatever the substantial longer term gains, and no politician is willing to spend upfront to make big money later (exhibit A - HS2).
    But this is stupid. We have people genuinely saying "we can't afford teachers" but then accepting that we pay *more* to crisis manage the operational issues caused by not having enough teachers. The same in the NHSes, Criminal Justice etc etc.

    We're spending - as @BartholomewRoberts rightly points out - record sums whilst simultaneously having desperate no cash crises at the front line. A wholesale rethink is needed which means spending more now to save longer term. Any business would just get on with it, but we're stuck in this absurd situation where "we can't afford to sped lots" prevails as we spend lotsandlots as a consequence.
    Are you suggesting that a government policy on education is stupid?

    Ridiculous.

    Why, you'll be telling me George Best was a drunk next.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,253
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    Everything is possible if resourced well enough. But there is no field I can think of which is not wanting massively extra resource, especially the costly ones - NHS, welfare, education, defence, housing.

    So 'more resource' is the question, not the answer.
    Resource on what is the question. We're spending record sums. But have a crisis due to lack of resources.

    Lets take education as an example. Thanks to market reforms we have endless fucking trusts running in many cases a small number of schools. Each trust costs money to run and has staff dedicated to running the trust rather than the actual educational provision. Fragmentation means that supplying schools becomes a minefield - instead of selling supplies to the LEA you're selling to 17 different companies, which means the price goes up.

    We had the same nonsense in the ENHS - GPs as managers buying provision and managing contracts. We're spending vast amounts on "choice" whilst bringing the quality of the thing being provided ever lower. Fragmentation costs money. Management costs money. Contracts cost money. Temp staff cost money. We're literally hosepiping cash against the wall, a vast empire of bureaucracy which has little if nothing to do with the actual service being provided.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,781

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So in other words a handful of Rishi loyalist MPs or ex Remainers who removed Boris in 2022 leading to the worst Tory defeat since the 18th century might go LD if he returned.

    Meanwhile as MoreinCommon found actual swing voters still like Boris, it found the Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% with Boris back, Reform down to 23% and Labour stuck on 22%

    It wasn't ex-Remainers who ousted Boris Johnson, or did you miss all those leavers, like I said at the time, Boris Johnson was the first Tory PM in 32 years not to be ousted over Europe.

    Secondly the Tory MPs who Iain Martin cites aren't defecting, they will resign as MPs triggering by-elections.
    It was mainly ex Remainers behind the 2022 coup plus Cummings acolytes and Rishi and Jarvis
    Coup? LOL.

    Boris Johnson lied about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority then got others to lie about it, when the cabinet found out they were furious.

    Lest we forget a month earlier Boris Johnson assured the party he had changed and wouldn't lie any more during the vote of confidence.
    So his promise to stop lying was... a lie?
    Thank goodness he's been replaced by that white Knight of honesty, Sir Starmer.

    His pre-election promises not to cut winter fuel allowance or increase national insurance won't immediately be broken then, will they?
    Except the Conservatives were pointing out the threat to increase employer's NI before the election;

    https://public.conservatives.com/publicweb/GE2024/18 Tax rises.pdf

    Whether it's desirable or not is another matter. (Personally, I suspect that making it too cheap to employ staff is part of why we have high employment but so many cruddy low value-added jobs.) But it wasn't a broken promise.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,632
    algarkirk said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    A possible Why? is this. The Tory hierarchy must know more than we do about the Tory party. Does anyone join? Is there a talent pool coming up? Are there MPs and potential MPs that could be the front bench statemen and women of 10-40 years time of international stature? Are there Tory policy wonks with decent long term ideas and strategies that make sense over the next decades? Are they writing and publishing top quality books and articles? Does the hierarchy know what the Tory party is for? Does the Spectator or Telegraph make coherent sense?

    Probably no to all these.

    So Boris, as you go crashing down, may be worth a try.
    Even with the much vaunted More In Common hypothetical leaders poll, which some cling on like a lifebuoy after a shipwreck, a Conservative Party led by Rishi Sunak would be tied 24-24 with Reform so the much vaunted "Boris" makes a much smaller difference (indeed statistically almost none at all) than some would have you believe.

    If you want an ex-leader who really would make a difference, bring back Liz Truss - it wouldn't be a positive difference (9% with More in Common) but it would be a difference. Reform would have a majority of 134 and the Conservatives would have no seats at all - even the Greens would have two.

    The Conservatives still have 4,375 councillors and 121 MPs - they are very far from extinct. Local Government reorganisation will reduce these numbers as pro-Conservative District Councils are abolished (the LDs and Labour will be hit as well). They are still the second party - polls mean nothing.

    The Conservatives are used to being third in polls - it happened in the 80s quite a bit, didn't stop them winning two elections by landslides. They were even (briefly) third in terms of Councillor numbers in 1995 and 1996 behind the LDs. What they've never been is third in the Commons - that's when it will hit home.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    edited May 27

    isam said:

    It was a mistake to remove Boris as PM but I don’t see a way back for him now. He lost one section of 2019 Tory support with Partygate, and those who weren’t so bothered by that are likely to be furious with him about the increase in immigration. He’ll be attacked on both fronts by all the other leaders, and I don’t see how he can wriggle out of it. A shame for him that his time as PM coincided with the pandemic, he must feel frustrated, but that’s life

    His star ascended through COVID. He claimed he got all the big calls right and his fans agreed. His detractors and neutrals were not so convinced. He built up a hat full of goodwill nonetheless and personally blew it with Partygate and Pincher. Johnson was not the victim but the architect of his dramatic decline.
    You forgot a P - Paterson
    I wonder if there were polling in it, what the public would think was the reason Boris was ousted? I reckon well over half would think it was cake/party and v few would have heard of Pincher/Patterson
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,440

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    Swinney in recent times is the only one I think
    Farage!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,191
    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,872
    edited May 27

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    Swinney in recent times is the only one I think
    Farage!
    If we're including those who were not MPs, then Ieuan Wyn Jones had two stints as Plaid leader.

    Edit - also of course Dafydd Wigley and Alex Salmond.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,966
    Loyalty is generally a good thing. However, when it is loyalty to a lying shit like Bozo, it is not.

    Comrade HY, time to turn the page.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,440

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So in other words a handful of Rishi loyalist MPs or ex Remainers who removed Boris in 2022 leading to the worst Tory defeat since the 18th century might go LD if he returned.

    Meanwhile as MoreinCommon found actual swing voters still like Boris, it found the Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% with Boris back, Reform down to 23% and Labour stuck on 22%

    It wasn't ex-Remainers who ousted Boris Johnson, or did you miss all those leavers, like I said at the time, Boris Johnson was the first Tory PM in 32 years not to be ousted over Europe.

    Secondly the Tory MPs who Iain Martin cites aren't defecting, they will resign as MPs triggering by-elections.
    It was mainly ex Remainers behind the 2022 coup plus Cummings acolytes and Rishi and Jarvis
    Coup? LOL.

    Boris Johnson lied about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority then got others to lie about it, when the cabinet found out they were furious.

    Lest we forget a month earlier Boris Johnson assured the party he had changed and wouldn't lie any more during the vote of confidence.
    So his promise to stop lying was... a lie?
    Thank goodness he's been replaced by that white Knight of honesty, Sir Starmer.

    His pre-election promises not to cut winter fuel allowance or increase national insurance won't immediately be broken then, will they?
    Did he make either of those promises?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,573
    Utterly OT, but trying to do some work and got jump-scared by a tiny spider descending from the ceiling right in front of my face. Lovely.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,357

    He won the toss and bowled! HAHAHAHAHA
    In fairness, I doubt the problem for the losers was that the pitch deteriorated so precipitously that it was suddenly unplayable.

    They were just a much worse team and, by bowling first, they made more of a day of it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,966
    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    Bonar Law, 1922. Possibly also Lloyd George 1926.

    Macdonald had several stints as Chairman of the Labour Party but that was under rather different rules.

    Before that I'm thinking it was Earl Grey in 1829.
    Ed Miliband, 2028?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    stodge said:

    algarkirk said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    A possible Why? is this. The Tory hierarchy must know more than we do about the Tory party. Does anyone join? Is there a talent pool coming up? Are there MPs and potential MPs that could be the front bench statemen and women of 10-40 years time of international stature? Are there Tory policy wonks with decent long term ideas and strategies that make sense over the next decades? Are they writing and publishing top quality books and articles? Does the hierarchy know what the Tory party is for? Does the Spectator or Telegraph make coherent sense?

    Probably no to all these.

    So Boris, as you go crashing down, may be worth a try.
    Even with the much vaunted More In Common hypothetical leaders poll, which some cling on like a lifebuoy after a shipwreck, a Conservative Party led by Rishi Sunak would be tied 24-24 with Reform so the much vaunted "Boris" makes a much smaller difference (indeed statistically almost none at all) than some would have you believe.

    If you want an ex-leader who really would make a difference, bring back Liz Truss - it wouldn't be a positive difference (9% with More in Common) but it would be a difference. Reform would have a majority of 134 and the Conservatives would have no seats at all - even the Greens would have two.

    The Conservatives still have 4,375 councillors and 121 MPs - they are very far from extinct. Local Government reorganisation will reduce these numbers as pro-Conservative District Councils are abolished (the LDs and Labour will be hit as well). They are still the second party - polls mean nothing.

    The Conservatives are used to being third in polls - it happened in the 80s quite a bit, didn't stop them winning two elections by landslides. They were even (briefly) third in terms of Councillor numbers in 1995 and 1996 behind the LDs. What they've never been is third in the Commons - that's when it will hit home.
    Good bit of reasoned analysis,
    Of course the Tories have a tendency to panicked reactions in the last 35 years, increasingly so into the last 15 years. It's the panicked reactions that costs some of the support they are losing.
    The LDs, for example, never wet the bed when they were polling 4 or 5%
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,357

    stodge said:

    algarkirk said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    A possible Why? is this. The Tory hierarchy must know more than we do about the Tory party. Does anyone join? Is there a talent pool coming up? Are there MPs and potential MPs that could be the front bench statemen and women of 10-40 years time of international stature? Are there Tory policy wonks with decent long term ideas and strategies that make sense over the next decades? Are they writing and publishing top quality books and articles? Does the hierarchy know what the Tory party is for? Does the Spectator or Telegraph make coherent sense?

    Probably no to all these.

    So Boris, as you go crashing down, may be worth a try.
    Even with the much vaunted More In Common hypothetical leaders poll, which some cling on like a lifebuoy after a shipwreck, a Conservative Party led by Rishi Sunak would be tied 24-24 with Reform so the much vaunted "Boris" makes a much smaller difference (indeed statistically almost none at all) than some would have you believe.

    If you want an ex-leader who really would make a difference, bring back Liz Truss - it wouldn't be a positive difference (9% with More in Common) but it would be a difference. Reform would have a majority of 134 and the Conservatives would have no seats at all - even the Greens would have two.

    The Conservatives still have 4,375 councillors and 121 MPs - they are very far from extinct. Local Government reorganisation will reduce these numbers as pro-Conservative District Councils are abolished (the LDs and Labour will be hit as well). They are still the second party - polls mean nothing.

    The Conservatives are used to being third in polls - it happened in the 80s quite a bit, didn't stop them winning two elections by landslides. They were even (briefly) third in terms of Councillor numbers in 1995 and 1996 behind the LDs. What they've never been is third in the Commons - that's when it will hit home.
    ...
    The LDs, for example, never wet the bed when they were polling 4 or 5%
    We did a bit, TBH.

  • PJHPJH Posts: 852
    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    Bonar Law, 1922. Possibly also Lloyd George 1926.

    Macdonald had several stints as Chairman of the Labour Party but that was under rather different rules.

    Before that I'm thinking it was Earl Grey in 1829.
    I don't think you can count Lloyd George as party leader - whatever he was leader of between 1916 and 1922, it wasn't the Liberal Party, which retained Asquith as official leader even when he was out of parliament. So although he did return in a sense, I don't think he had ever been a formal party leader previously. But your knowledge of history is better than mine so I will defer.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702

    He won the toss and bowled! HAHAHAHAHA
    In fairness, I doubt the problem for the losers was that the pitch deteriorated so precipitously that it was suddenly unplayable.

    They were just a much worse team and, by bowling first, they made more of a day of it.
    Well he gave the bowlers a workout and ruined their averages! I'd have developed a nasty case of the yips after one over........sorry skip, you'll have to put Bob on!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    Swinney in recent times is the only one I think
    Farage!
    Oh yeah! I've heard of him i think
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    Yes.

    Especially if we dramatically cut class sizes.

    But that won't happen. It would be expensive in the short term, whatever the substantial longer term gains, and no politician is willing to spend upfront to make big money later (exhibit A - HS2).
    There seem to be loads of SEND kids at my sons school, but is it right the school don’t get the extra money straight away?

    For whatever reason, the school is short of money, and the year 1 & 2 classes are going to be merged next school year, to be three classes of thirty combined y1&2 rather than four smaller sized classes by birth year. I wouldn’t want to be the parent of the cleverest kid in y2, I’d feel they might be dragged back.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,872
    PJH said:

    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    Bonar Law, 1922. Possibly also Lloyd George 1926.

    Macdonald had several stints as Chairman of the Labour Party but that was under rather different rules.

    Before that I'm thinking it was Earl Grey in 1829.
    I don't think you can count Lloyd George as party leader - whatever he was leader of between 1916 and 1922, it wasn't the Liberal Party, which retained Asquith as official leader even when he was out of parliament. So although he did return in a sense, I don't think he had ever been a formal party leader previously. But your knowledge of history is better than mine so I will defer.
    He was leader of one faction of the Liberals, which had some, but not all, of the NLF on his side. THe issue is that party definitions were rather looser so it's arguable as to who held which role at what point.

    I did say it was 'possible.' Personally, I would agree with you but I can see how it might be argued the other way.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,872
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    Yes.

    Especially if we dramatically cut class sizes.

    But that won't happen. It would be expensive in the short term, whatever the substantial longer term gains, and no politician is willing to spend upfront to make big money later (exhibit A - HS2).
    There seem to be loads of SEND kids at my sons school, but is it right the school don’t get the extra money straight away?

    For whatever reason, the school is short of money, and the year 1 & 2 classes are going to be merged next school year, to be three classes of thirty combined y1&2 rather than four smaller sized classes by birth year. I wouldn’t want to be the parent of the cleverest kid in y2, I’d feel they might be dragged back.
    It varies according to many circumstances.

    I would say a much bigger problem is that the SEND money is being used to plug very large budgetary gaps elsewhere.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    isam said:

    isam said:

    It was a mistake to remove Boris as PM but I don’t see a way back for him now. He lost one section of 2019 Tory support with Partygate, and those who weren’t so bothered by that are likely to be furious with him about the increase in immigration. He’ll be attacked on both fronts by all the other leaders, and I don’t see how he can wriggle out of it. A shame for him that his time as PM coincided with the pandemic, he must feel frustrated, but that’s life

    His star ascended through COVID. He claimed he got all the big calls right and his fans agreed. His detractors and neutrals were not so convinced. He built up a hat full of goodwill nonetheless and personally blew it with Partygate and Pincher. Johnson was not the victim but the architect of his dramatic decline.
    You forgot a P - Paterson
    I wonder if there were polling in it, what the public would think was the reason Boris was ousted? I reckon well over half would think it was cake/party and v few would have heard of Pincher/Patterson
    Yeah, and he'd have survived cake if not for the other two issues. If it were simply cake he'd have cut and run on an election and 'put it to the people'
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,844

    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    Bonar Law, 1922. Possibly also Lloyd George 1926.

    Macdonald had several stints as Chairman of the Labour Party but that was under rather different rules.

    Before that I'm thinking it was Earl Grey in 1829.
    Ed Miliband, 2028?
    God preserve us! One of the few people that genuinely competes with Boris Johnson in the ludicrous-clown-that-you-cannot-believe-is-a-serious-politician competition
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702

    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    Bonar Law, 1922. Possibly also Lloyd George 1926.

    Macdonald had several stints as Chairman of the Labour Party but that was under rather different rules.

    Before that I'm thinking it was Earl Grey in 1829.
    Ed Miliband, 2028?
    God preserve us! One of the few people that genuinely competes with Boris Johnson in the ludicrous-clown-that-you-cannot-believe-is-a-serious-politician competition
    He'll be chasing Net Hero for ever and never make it .
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702

    stodge said:

    algarkirk said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Apart from in a caretaker capacity, how often has a political party removed a leader and then, at some point in the future, re-instated that former leader as the new leader?

    I can't recall the Conservatives ever having done it - at least since Peel.

    Arthur Henderson was Labour leader on three separate occasions but teo of those were in the early days of the Party before WW1 and the third was, I believe, as a caretaker, after MacDonald and before Lansbury. Vince Cable was only caretaker leader after Sir Menzies Campbell stepped down.

    Parties don't bring back leaders - it's not the same as a football club rehiring a former manager though that doesn't often end well.

    The only question proponents of a Johnson return need to ask is why?

    A possible Why? is this. The Tory hierarchy must know more than we do about the Tory party. Does anyone join? Is there a talent pool coming up? Are there MPs and potential MPs that could be the front bench statemen and women of 10-40 years time of international stature? Are there Tory policy wonks with decent long term ideas and strategies that make sense over the next decades? Are they writing and publishing top quality books and articles? Does the hierarchy know what the Tory party is for? Does the Spectator or Telegraph make coherent sense?

    Probably no to all these.

    So Boris, as you go crashing down, may be worth a try.
    Even with the much vaunted More In Common hypothetical leaders poll, which some cling on like a lifebuoy after a shipwreck, a Conservative Party led by Rishi Sunak would be tied 24-24 with Reform so the much vaunted "Boris" makes a much smaller difference (indeed statistically almost none at all) than some would have you believe.

    If you want an ex-leader who really would make a difference, bring back Liz Truss - it wouldn't be a positive difference (9% with More in Common) but it would be a difference. Reform would have a majority of 134 and the Conservatives would have no seats at all - even the Greens would have two.

    The Conservatives still have 4,375 councillors and 121 MPs - they are very far from extinct. Local Government reorganisation will reduce these numbers as pro-Conservative District Councils are abolished (the LDs and Labour will be hit as well). They are still the second party - polls mean nothing.

    The Conservatives are used to being third in polls - it happened in the 80s quite a bit, didn't stop them winning two elections by landslides. They were even (briefly) third in terms of Councillor numbers in 1995 and 1996 behind the LDs. What they've never been is third in the Commons - that's when it will hit home.
    ...
    The LDs, for example, never wet the bed when they were polling 4 or 5%
    We did a bit, TBH.

    You kept it quiet though! Rather than showing the voters your gross bedsheets and wailing
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,070
    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    Good. I'm fed up with the Right, the American Right in particularly, tendentiously conveying his rightful incarceration as some sort of political event. We can now all concentrate on the bloke in El Salvador.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,191
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    He’s put on ten pounds, grown a terrible beard, and apparently become a Christian

    However he still speaks quite fluently and passionately to camera (whatever you think of him; I think he’s more a fool than a Hitler). Disconcertingly he speaks better to camera than any of the major party leaders bar Farage. Makes you realise how bad they are

    He also makes the claim that 167m people have seen his movie. Can that possibly be right?!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,417
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    If Farage isn't clear he has no time for Robinson or his racist views it will be an albatross round his neck.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    If Farage isn't clear he has no time for Robinson or his racist views it will be an albatross round his neck.
    Oh Well
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,699
    edited May 27
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,440

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It was a mistake to remove Boris as PM but I don’t see a way back for him now. He lost one section of 2019 Tory support with Partygate, and those who weren’t so bothered by that are likely to be furious with him about the increase in immigration. He’ll be attacked on both fronts by all the other leaders, and I don’t see how he can wriggle out of it. A shame for him that his time as PM coincided with the pandemic, he must feel frustrated, but that’s life

    His star ascended through COVID. He claimed he got all the big calls right and his fans agreed. His detractors and neutrals were not so convinced. He built up a hat full of goodwill nonetheless and personally blew it with Partygate and Pincher. Johnson was not the victim but the architect of his dramatic decline.
    You forgot a P - Paterson
    I wonder if there were polling in it, what the public would think was the reason Boris was ousted? I reckon well over half would think it was cake/party and v few would have heard of Pincher/Patterson
    Yeah, and he'd have survived cake if not for the other two issues. If it were simply cake he'd have cut and run on an election and 'put it to the people'
    The final satisfaction poll by YouGov for Johnson had was 29 Aug 2022 and he was on -43, although his lowest score was -51 on 17 Jan 2022. That lowest score was before Pincher, but fairly soon after the by-election caused by Patterson's departure. Pincher was the last straw for Tory MPs, but doesn't seem to have shifted public views. The public already didn't like him.

    If you look at the graph over time, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating , his polling is on a downhill trajectory from Jun 2021. What happened then? I guess the positive COVID/vaccine news was fading and we had the Downing Street refurbishment row. It was also when the cost of living crises was getting going.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It was a mistake to remove Boris as PM but I don’t see a way back for him now. He lost one section of 2019 Tory support with Partygate, and those who weren’t so bothered by that are likely to be furious with him about the increase in immigration. He’ll be attacked on both fronts by all the other leaders, and I don’t see how he can wriggle out of it. A shame for him that his time as PM coincided with the pandemic, he must feel frustrated, but that’s life

    His star ascended through COVID. He claimed he got all the big calls right and his fans agreed. His detractors and neutrals were not so convinced. He built up a hat full of goodwill nonetheless and personally blew it with Partygate and Pincher. Johnson was not the victim but the architect of his dramatic decline.
    You forgot a P - Paterson
    I wonder if there were polling in it, what the public would think was the reason Boris was ousted? I reckon well over half would think it was cake/party and v few would have heard of Pincher/Patterson
    Yeah, and he'd have survived cake if not for the other two issues. If it were simply cake he'd have cut and run on an election and 'put it to the people'
    The final satisfaction poll by YouGov for Johnson had was 29 Aug 2022 and he was on -43, although his lowest score was -51 on 17 Jan 2022. That lowest score was before Pincher, but fairly soon after the by-election caused by Patterson's departure. Pincher was the last straw for Tory MPs, but doesn't seem to have shifted public views. The public already didn't like him.

    If you look at the graph over time, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating , his polling is on a downhill trajectory from Jun 2021. What happened then? I guess the positive COVID/vaccine news was fading and we had the Downing Street refurbishment row. It was also when the cost of living crises was getting going.
    Starmer is -46 now, but he doesn’t seem to be on the brink of being ousted
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,191

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,070

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Probably a shrewd move to get in with the American Right and their big stacks of dollars. His previous mission - defending British secular values - is only marginally more appealing to that crowd than Islam.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,545
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    Everything is possible if resourced well enough. But there is no field I can think of which is not wanting massively extra resource, especially the costly ones - NHS, welfare, education, defence, housing.

    So 'more resource' is the question, not the answer.
    Whatever you give them it will never be enough, or they will say it isn’t.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
    Do these kinds of people have that kind of intrinsic racism or political ideology? I get the sense they just get off on hating people, and they'll pick on whatever group suits their purposes best. At the moment that's Muslims but I reckon anti-Semitism is bubbling under the surface, as we occasionally see with the MAGA crowd.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,781
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    Yes.

    Especially if we dramatically cut class sizes.

    But that won't happen. It would be expensive in the short term, whatever the substantial longer term gains, and no politician is willing to spend upfront to make big money later (exhibit A - HS2).
    There seem to be loads of SEND kids at my sons school, but is it right the school don’t get the extra money straight away?

    For whatever reason, the school is short of money, and the year 1 & 2 classes are going to be merged next school year, to be three classes of thirty combined y1&2 rather than four smaller sized classes by birth year. I wouldn’t want to be the parent of the cleverest kid in y2, I’d feel they might be dragged back.
    Worth checking how the school plans to manage it. It can be done well, but it can be done badly as well.

    As for why... There's the ongoing baby bust. A decade ago, Havering were talking of expanding our local primary from 60 pupils a year to 90. In the end they didn't, but that would have been a complete white elephant. In inner London, entire schools are closing.

    There's also the funding structure, where every individual school/trust has to wash its own face financially. In primary, the numbers only really add up with 30 pupils per class. Four classes of 22 is a lot harder to budget for than 3 of 30; pretty much impossible, I suspect.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 844

    To be fair to many Tory MPs, they won't stick around even if Boris doesn't become leader. They will defect to Reform, or they will be defeated by Reform or the LibDems.

    Well he did a good job on them first time (as forecast). Perhaps we should encourage them so he can finish the job and the party.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,989
    Dopermean said:

    He won the toss and bowled! HAHAHAHAHA
    Could have been over in 30 minutes if they'd batted.
    Played in a game a bit like that. Bowled out for about 24. Did take 4 wickets but the game was over in about 90 minutes and I was home rather early...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    edited May 27
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
    I wouldn’t have thought so.

    I went to a few of Matt Forde’s political party shows circa 2014, and Robinson was one of the guests (I also went to the shows ft Lammy & Jim Murphy). He does speak reasonably well, and if I’m honest I don’t disagree with a lot of what he says. He was a problem with the Islamification of Britain, as do many other people, but he isn’t some kind of white supremacist
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,891
    edited May 27
    Films have gone PC – and this expert can prove when it started
    Analysis of more than 50,000 films shows rise in those with social justice subtext, heavy-handed messaging and focus on representation

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/27/movies-woke-and-i-can-prove-it-stephen-follows/ (£££)

    Source analysis from:-


    Can we measure if movies have become "too woke"?

    Everyone seems to have an opinion on whether films have become "too woke" but what happens when we try to measure it using actual data. Can we see shifts? How do they correlate with outcomes?

    https://stephenfollows.com/p/measuring-if-movies-are-too-woke

    Films, statistics and graphs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,523
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
    Wrapped in the white and blue of the Star of David back at a pro Israel demo in 2021.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,989
    algarkirk said:

    Dopermean said:

    He won the toss and bowled! HAHAHAHAHA
    Could have been over in 30 minutes if they'd batted.
    If your team is that bad it's polite to let the others bat first as you need to make an afternoon of it to earn your cucumber sandwiches and sponge cake.
    Also in most league cricket you get points for wickets taken and runs scored. So Bowling first, if the opponents run up a huge score but you take a few wickets is actually not the worst outcome, even if you are then rolled over for 2 runs.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 844
    edited May 27

    Off topic immediately.

    Much hushed banal observations from pols about the unfortunate events in Liverpool as is standard nowadays, including tributes to the ‘amazing bravery’ from our police and emergency services. I’ve no doubt that these guys display this quality day in, day out, but was there anything over and beyond shown yesterday?

    Aren't the Services those that rush towards death and carnage to provide help, so that the general public can walk away from it in safety? Why would anyone want to do it as it'll not be for the money.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,440
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
    I wouldn’t have thought so.

    I went to a few of Matt Forde’s political party shows circa 2014, and Robinson was one of the guests (I also went to the shows ft Lammy & Jim Murphy). He does speak reasonably well, and if I’m honest I don’t disagree with a lot of what he says. He was a problem with the Islamification of Britain, as do many other people, but he isn’t some kind of white supremacist
    He was a member of the British National Party (BNP) and joint vice-chairman of the BNP spin-off, the British Freedom Party (BFP). He's a fascist and a white supremacist.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,989

    Utterly OT, but trying to do some work and got jump-scared by a tiny spider descending from the ceiling right in front of my face. Lovely.

    That was the distraction - you should have seen the one behind you...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,567
    Does anyone believe this guff that he’s found God?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,872
    edited May 27
    nico67 said:

    Does anyone believe this guff that he’s found God?

    I'm sure he found the thing he thought of as God many years ago. Bloke with blond hair named Alex Johnson.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,121
    nico67 said:

    Does anyone believe this guff that he’s found God?

    Well, he's going forth and multiplying.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,082
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
    Just piles in on formenting hate against the current out-group I expect.

    His parole annoys me.
    he was imprisoned for repeatedly breaking an injunction against repeating a libel, a libel that was deliberate harassment
    he has previous convictions for harassment, including making false allegations
    he has other previous convictions for violence and fraud
    and he is so patriotic that he owes 6 figures to HMRC

    He is not a prisoner who has shown any evidence that he has been rehabilitated and is unlikely to reoffend, so he should be serving his full sentence inside.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,191
    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    We need to get Reform up to 35 and Lab down to ~18%
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,417

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It was a mistake to remove Boris as PM but I don’t see a way back for him now. He lost one section of 2019 Tory support with Partygate, and those who weren’t so bothered by that are likely to be furious with him about the increase in immigration. He’ll be attacked on both fronts by all the other leaders, and I don’t see how he can wriggle out of it. A shame for him that his time as PM coincided with the pandemic, he must feel frustrated, but that’s life

    His star ascended through COVID. He claimed he got all the big calls right and his fans agreed. His detractors and neutrals were not so convinced. He built up a hat full of goodwill nonetheless and personally blew it with Partygate and Pincher. Johnson was not the victim but the architect of his dramatic decline.
    You forgot a P - Paterson
    I wonder if there were polling in it, what the public would think was the reason Boris was ousted? I reckon well over half would think it was cake/party and v few would have heard of Pincher/Patterson
    Yeah, and he'd have survived cake if not for the other two issues. If it were simply cake he'd have cut and run on an election and 'put it to the people'
    The final satisfaction poll by YouGov for Johnson had was 29 Aug 2022 and he was on -43, although his lowest score was -51 on 17 Jan 2022. That lowest score was before Pincher, but fairly soon after the by-election caused by Patterson's departure. Pincher was the last straw for Tory MPs, but doesn't seem to have shifted public views. The public already didn't like him.

    If you look at the graph over time, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating , his polling is on a downhill trajectory from Jun 2021. What happened then? I guess the positive COVID/vaccine news was fading and we had the Downing Street refurbishment row. It was also when the cost of living crises was getting going.
    He might have survived without Pincher. It was a Westminster bubble issue (not the public disaster that Partygate was) but as regards the parliamentary party it finished him off. There were insufficient supportive MPs for him to form a government. This just a year after Hartlepool. Incredible fall.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Ever since Starner's "island of strangers" speech , reform are sticking around 30. Kemomight even have lost a few votes too from it too, as a leader from a minority.
    Labour need to have a rethink.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,481
    nico67 said:

    Does anyone believe this guff that he’s found God?

    An attempt to preapre the ground for a US visa which would otherwise be problematic given his convictions. He's going to need to go on the right wing MAGA shitc-nt circuit to rebuild his shattered finances.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    "Kemi", that should obviously be, there.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,481

    "Kemi", that should obviously be, there.

    The Kemotherapy isn't working on the tory party.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,064
    Taz said:

    Junior Doctors, now renamed to Resident Doctors, ballet on strike action opens today.

    Just want another 20% on top of the large rise last September.

    Glad we’re so flush with cash.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c771dgm8vrpo

    Take it from the senior doctors' pensions.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,417
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
    Hates Jews but hates Muslims more. Is there a special word for that?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    Kemi is a leader from the Cameron ethnically inclusive era. Farage is from the 1950's, and Starmer is just helping him currently by imitating him.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    I don’t think it is talked about enough that Labour & the Lib Dems were both obliterated in 2019, despite each getting more votes than they did in 2024. Blows my mind
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,781

    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Ever since Starner's "island of strangers" speech , reform are sticking around 30. Kemomight even have lost a few votes too from it too, as a leader from a minority.
    Labour need to have a rethink.
    Interesting, when it's coupled with this;

    We're seeing a pattern in local elections / by-elections where Tories will vote tactically for Reform (like Runcorn) but Reform voters won't vote tactically for the Tories (like here where they've just completely split the right vote).

    https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lq5cecyg662f

    Makes Labour very vulnerable in the Red Wall, but completely stuffs the Conservatives in both Nice Britain and Boring Britain.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,891
    Trump goes to war with the wealthy to shore up Maga base
    ...
    But as Republicans prepare their “big, beautiful bill” for tax and spending, which includes $880bn in cuts to public health insurance for poor households, Trump needs to find ways to take care of his low-income Maga support base.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/05/26/trump-goes-to-war-with-wealthy-shore-up-maga-base/ (£££)
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,723
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico67 said:

    Does anyone believe this guff that he’s found God?

    An attempt to preapre the ground for a US visa which would otherwise be problematic given his convictions. He's going to need to go on the right wing MAGA shitc-nt circuit to rebuild his shattered finances.
    Isn't he financed from Moscow, DA?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    edited May 27
    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's not entirely true of first years.......

    Thatcher 79 was unpopular after a year
    Major 90 held vote share after a year
    Major 92 was unpopular a year in (Black Wedneday)
    Blair 97, 01 still popular after a year
    Blair 05 just about holding vote share a year in
    Brown 07 decline really kicked in after a year
    Cameron 10 - still at election level a year in
    Cameron 15 - still holding vote share a year in
    May 17 - just about holding on to vote share after a year but Europe soon to crush that
    Johnson 19 - popular for first year generally
    Truss 22 - not a year
    Sunak 22 - probably a little less unpopular than post Truss after a year
    Starmer 24 - precipitous decline
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,290
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
    Hates Jews but hates Muslims more. Is there a special word for that?
    He's against male circumcision?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,290

    "Kemi", that should obviously be, there.

    The Kembot?
  • eekeek Posts: 30,077

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    Yes.

    Especially if we dramatically cut class sizes.

    But that won't happen. It would be expensive in the short term, whatever the substantial longer term gains, and no politician is willing to spend upfront to make big money later (exhibit A - HS2).
    There seem to be loads of SEND kids at my sons school, but is it right the school don’t get the extra money straight away?

    For whatever reason, the school is short of money, and the year 1 & 2 classes are going to be merged next school year, to be three classes of thirty combined y1&2 rather than four smaller sized classes by birth year. I wouldn’t want to be the parent of the cleverest kid in y2, I’d feel they might be dragged back.
    Worth checking how the school plans to manage it. It can be done well, but it can be done badly as well.

    As for why... There's the ongoing baby bust. A decade ago, Havering were talking of expanding our local primary from 60 pupils a year to 90. In the end they didn't, but that would have been a complete white elephant. In inner London, entire schools are closing.

    There's also the funding structure, where every individual school/trust has to wash its own face financially. In primary, the numbers only really add up with 30 pupils per class. Four classes of 22 is a lot harder to budget for than 3 of 30; pretty much impossible, I suspect.
    Yep even 15 years ago you would want 3 classes of 30 with whatever left over uses for TA support - you can’t afford 4 teachers without cutting TA support which you definitely don’t want
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,290
    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Broken, sleazy Tories on the slide!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,699
    edited May 27

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    Is Tommeh antisemitic? His type tend to be quite pro Israel

    Genuine Q, I have no idea
    I wouldn’t have thought so.

    I went to a few of Matt Forde’s political party shows circa 2014, and Robinson was one of the guests (I also went to the shows ft Lammy & Jim Murphy). He does speak reasonably well, and if I’m honest I don’t disagree with a lot of what he says. He was a problem with the Islamification of Britain, as do many other people, but he isn’t some kind of white supremacist
    He was a member of the British National Party (BNP) and joint vice-chairman of the BNP spin-off, the British Freedom Party (BFP). He's a fascist and a white supremacist.
    Nick Griffin was pro Israel at various times, even expressing support for them on his (in)famous QT appearance. These people say any old shite when it suits them but I think we all know what his 'true' feelings are towards Jews.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,077

    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Ever since Starner's "island of strangers" speech , reform are sticking around 30. Kemomight even have lost a few votes too from it too, as a leader from a minority.
    Labour need to have a rethink.
    Interesting, when it's coupled with this;

    We're seeing a pattern in local elections / by-elections where Tories will vote tactically for Reform (like Runcorn) but Reform voters won't vote tactically for the Tories (like here where they've just completely split the right vote).

    https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lq5cecyg662f

    Makes Labour very vulnerable in the Red Wall, but completely stuffs the Conservatives in both Nice Britain and Boring Britain.
    I thought this was obvious - reform voters are non of the above voters - now Bozo got them in 2019 because of Brexit but that’s been and gone, people are not better off and they won’t make the same mistake again
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,814

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Looks like he's found God, for which he's given himself a big tick.
    He'd better hope ol' Yahweh doesn't find him.
    He resembles Dementus, from Mad Max Furiosa.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,191

    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's not entirely true of first years.......

    Thatcher 79 was unpopular after a year
    Major 90 held vote share after a year
    Major 92 was unpopular a year in (Black Wedneday)
    Blair 97, 01 still popular after a year
    Blair 05 just about holding vote share a year in
    Brown 07 decline really kicked in after a year
    Cameron 10 - still at election level a year in
    Cameron 15 - still holding vote share a year in
    May 17 - just about holding on to vote share after a year but Europe soon to crush that
    Johnson 19 - popular for first year generally
    Truss 22 - not a year
    Sunak 22 - probably a little less unpopular than post Truss after a year
    Starmer 24 - precipitous decline

    A Guardian analysis last week showed that this Starmer government has experienced the worst fall in popularity of any Govt, since their polling records began in 1983

    So, yes, this Labour decline is unprecedented
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That's not entirely true of first years.......

    Thatcher 79 was unpopular after a year
    Major 90 held vote share after a year
    Major 92 was unpopular a year in (Black Wedneday)
    Blair 97, 01 still popular after a year
    Blair 05 just about holding vote share a year in
    Brown 07 decline really kicked in after a year
    Cameron 10 - still at election level a year in
    Cameron 15 - still holding vote share a year in
    May 17 - just about holding on to vote share after a year but Europe soon to crush that
    Johnson 19 - popular for first year generally
    Truss 22 - not a year
    Sunak 22 - probably a little less unpopular than post Truss after a year
    Starmer 24 - precipitous decline

    A Guardian analysis last week showed that this Starmer government has experienced the worst fall in popularity of any Govt, since their polling records began in 1983

    So, yes, this Labour decline is unprecedented
    Combined with official oppositions decline its extraordinary
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,440

    Films have gone PC – and this expert can prove when it started
    Analysis of more than 50,000 films shows rise in those with social justice subtext, heavy-handed messaging and focus on representation

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/27/movies-woke-and-i-can-prove-it-stephen-follows/ (£££)

    Source analysis from:-


    Can we measure if movies have become "too woke"?

    Everyone seems to have an opinion on whether films have become "too woke" but what happens when we try to measure it using actual data. Can we see shifts? How do they correlate with outcomes?

    https://stephenfollows.com/p/measuring-if-movies-are-too-woke

    Films, statistics and graphs.

    The analysis appears to show that people are talking about films being "too woke" more rather than whether they actually are "too woke".
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    edited May 27
    Deleted, sorry. The polls on Britain Elects today are last weeks
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,358

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    IIRC Isn't an awful lot of the growth in LEA SEND spend taxis, because lots and lots of SEND kids are deemed unable to walk to school/use the regular school bus? Clamping down on this and spending the cash on actual education sounds like it could be a win/win for virtually everyone except the taxi firms.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,946
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Has he got Peter Green 's unfeasibly long fingernails too?

    I suppose as we can't libel/ slander deceased people Peter Green can't sue for being likened to Yaxley -Lennon.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,121
    "Poland joins eight countries calling for rethink of European rights convention in relation to migrants"

    https://notesfrompoland.com/2025/05/26/poland-joins-eight-countries-calling-for-rethink-of-european-rights-convention-in-relation-to-migrants/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,946
    isam said:

    Deleted, sorry. The polls on Britain Elects today are last weeks

    That doesn't stop anyone else.

    A good Reform/Tory poll is not worth a bean if it is not posted on here half a dozen times.
  • vikvik Posts: 436
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico67 said:

    Does anyone believe this guff that he’s found God?

    An attempt to preapre the ground for a US visa which would otherwise be problematic given his convictions. He's going to need to go on the right wing MAGA shitc-nt circuit to rebuild his shattered finances.
    Why would he have a problem with a US visa ? This is the same US administration that put intense pressure on the Romanian government to let the Tate Brothers leave Romania for the US.

    Trump might even invite him to the White House.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,425
    edited May 27
    carnforth said:

    "Poland joins eight countries calling for rethink of European rights convention in relation to migrants"

    https://notesfrompoland.com/2025/05/26/poland-joins-eight-countries-calling-for-rethink-of-european-rights-convention-in-relation-to-migrants/

    Signed by Meloni, Tusk, Frederiksen, Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic and all the Baltic states.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    edited May 27
    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/1927304551989666156?s=19

    These figures are 'interesting' to say the least and suggest Farage/Reform not as popular as simple poll lead, Kemi not as dreadful as commentary (beats Farage, closer to Starmer) and, above all, some serious upside potential for Lib Dems
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,417
    eek said:

    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Ever since Starner's "island of strangers" speech , reform are sticking around 30. Kemomight even have lost a few votes too from it too, as a leader from a minority.
    Labour need to have a rethink.
    Interesting, when it's coupled with this;

    We're seeing a pattern in local elections / by-elections where Tories will vote tactically for Reform (like Runcorn) but Reform voters won't vote tactically for the Tories (like here where they've just completely split the right vote).

    https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lq5cecyg662f

    Makes Labour very vulnerable in the Red Wall, but completely stuffs the Conservatives in both Nice Britain and Boring Britain.
    I thought this was obvious - reform voters are non of the above voters - now Bozo got them in 2019 because of Brexit but that’s been and gone, people are not better off and they won’t make the same mistake again
    Leave/Remain is still a key divide imo. I'm happy to be proved wrong by relevant polling (if there is any?) but I bet Reform supporters today who voted on the EU in 2016 were overwhelmingly Leave. By this I mean 90% plus.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768

    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Ever since Starner's "island of strangers" speech , reform are sticking around 30. Kemomight even have lost a few votes too from it too, as a leader from a minority.
    Labour need to have a rethink.
    Interesting, when it's coupled with this;

    We're seeing a pattern in local elections / by-elections where Tories will vote tactically for Reform (like Runcorn) but Reform voters won't vote tactically for the Tories (like here where they've just completely split the right vote).

    https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lq5cecyg662f

    Makes Labour very vulnerable in the Red Wall, but completely stuffs the Conservatives in both Nice Britain and Boring Britain.
    It feels very much like a one-way valve. Once you've gone Reform...
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,357
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It was a mistake to remove Boris as PM but I don’t see a way back for him now. He lost one section of 2019 Tory support with Partygate, and those who weren’t so bothered by that are likely to be furious with him about the increase in immigration. He’ll be attacked on both fronts by all the other leaders, and I don’t see how he can wriggle out of it. A shame for him that his time as PM coincided with the pandemic, he must feel frustrated, but that’s life

    His star ascended through COVID. He claimed he got all the big calls right and his fans agreed. His detractors and neutrals were not so convinced. He built up a hat full of goodwill nonetheless and personally blew it with Partygate and Pincher. Johnson was not the victim but the architect of his dramatic decline.
    You forgot a P - Paterson
    I wonder if there were polling in it, what the public would think was the reason Boris was ousted? I reckon well over half would think it was cake/party and v few would have heard of Pincher/Patterson
    Yeah, and he'd have survived cake if not for the other two issues. If it were simply cake he'd have cut and run on an election and 'put it to the people'
    The final satisfaction poll by YouGov for Johnson had was 29 Aug 2022 and he was on -43, although his lowest score was -51 on 17 Jan 2022. That lowest score was before Pincher, but fairly soon after the by-election caused by Patterson's departure. Pincher was the last straw for Tory MPs, but doesn't seem to have shifted public views. The public already didn't like him.

    If you look at the graph over time, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating , his polling is on a downhill trajectory from Jun 2021. What happened then? I guess the positive COVID/vaccine news was fading and we had the Downing Street refurbishment row. It was also when the cost of living crises was getting going.
    He might have survived without Pincher. It was a Westminster bubble issue (not the public disaster that Partygate was) but as regards the parliamentary party it finished him off. There were insufficient supportive MPs for him to form a government. This just a year after Hartlepool. Incredible fall.
    He wouldn't have survived without Pincher, I think.

    Pincher was merely one (fairly minor) symptom of the PM's fatal character flaws. It was the straw that broke the camel's back, but there was always more straw with Johnson.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,077
    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    For the first time my gut is saying that this Labour Government is heading for disaster.

    I get the political argument for reversing the WFA changes but they’re pretty naive if they think this will be the start. The MPs will come back for more. And who is this policy change going to win back anyway? Surely it’s too late now. Fundamentally I still think the original policy was right.

    The 2 child limit, who is this change designed to win over? It’s curious that Farage is proposing also to scrap it but I just can’t think instinctively this is the right policy to win back anyone either.

    HL has said investor confidence in the UK has risen after April which is encouraging but will the strong growth in Q1 really be sustained? I worry that the champagne is being popped without much evidence of a long term trend.

    Labour runs the risk of doing the same as Biden, where the economy is strong on the numbers but working people feel nothing has changed. That is where Farage will be in a strong position.

    There was some good news about Albania being willing to take failed asylum seekers but how does one become a failed asylum seeker? Shouldn’t be we processing people offshore instead of sending failed ones there? Maybe it’s just the start but it just didn’t feel like a convincing enough idea for me. We need an offshore processing centre and fast.

    Still many years to go and that but Farage is starting to give me the Boris Johnson feeling, that he’s winning over working class voters who aren’t going to go back to Labour. And Labour is thinking they will never vote for him. Feels a bit like 2019 all over again.

    Labour has the levers. But I’m more sceptical than I was that they know which to pull.

    You are right i think to sense disaster approaching. PIP is the flashpoint. With 100 to 150 at least threatening to rebel and frontbenchers on resignation watch the U turns on WFA and two kids will only harden that rebellion and increase its number.
    If he three line whips the vote it could be the end of at least Starmer, Reeves and Kendall. If he u turns or waters down then nothing will have credibility going forwards
    Worth keeping an eye on proposed reforms to SEND in education too. That's going to be a real mess because the government's proposals would require legislative changes and they would undoubtedly be controversial.
    Whats your take on this @ydoethur ? My high school had a SEND unit bolted onto the school - kids would attend normal classes where they could thanks to additional staff and resources.

    My general impression is that schools don't have enough staff and resources to function even with 0 SEND kids. In reality we're much better at diagnosing things like Autism which was largely ignored previously which requires more resources not less.

    If we actually resourced schools properly with a generous provision of teaching and support staff, could we remove some of the specialist / emergency SEND spending which all seems to be delivered on a postcode lottery basis?
    IIRC Isn't an awful lot of the growth in LEA SEND spend taxis, because lots and lots of SEND kids are deemed unable to walk to school/use the regular school bus? Clamping down on this and spending the cash on actual education sounds like it could be a win/win for virtually everyone except the taxi firms.
    Any evidence to back that up - that isn’t what the data I have shows?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    edited May 27

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    TOMMEH is free

    Let’s just rejoice in those words

    TOMMEH.

    FREE.

    Perhaps this solves the Tory leadership problem

    He’s gone for the Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac look



    Interesting to see how Farage deals with this actually. He’s trying to walk the tightrope of keeping people who like TR onside without alienating more centrist types. Like Starmer’s trick with the Labour left, it is not going to be easy
    Has he got Peter Green 's unfeasibly long fingernails too?

    I suppose as we can't libel/ slander deceased people Peter Green can't sue for being likened to Yaxley -Lennon.
    ‘Greenbaum’ if we are using birth names

    Poor Peter. One of the most tragic stories in Rock music history
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,425
    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    isam said:

    For all that I’m glad to see polls like this, it’s still very early days. Governments in their first year are often unpopular. Labour should be thanking their lucky stars that they won a majority with fewer than 10m votes rather than worrying about losing it

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 30% (+1)
    LAB: 22% (-)
    CON: 17% (-1)
    LDEM: 16% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)

    via @TechneUK, 21 - 22 May
    Chgs. w/ 15 May
    britainelects.com

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927292487133012058?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Ever since Starner's "island of strangers" speech , reform are sticking around 30. Kemomight even have lost a few votes too from it too, as a leader from a minority.
    Labour need to have a rethink.
    Interesting, when it's coupled with this;

    We're seeing a pattern in local elections / by-elections where Tories will vote tactically for Reform (like Runcorn) but Reform voters won't vote tactically for the Tories (like here where they've just completely split the right vote).

    https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lq5cecyg662f

    Makes Labour very vulnerable in the Red Wall, but completely stuffs the Conservatives in both Nice Britain and Boring Britain.
    I thought this was obvious - reform voters are non of the above voters - now Bozo got them in 2019 because of Brexit but that’s been and gone, people are not better off and they won’t make the same mistake again
    Leave/Remain is still a key divide imo. I'm happy to be proved wrong by relevant polling (if there is any?) but I bet Reform supporters today who voted on the EU in 2016 were overwhelmingly Leave. By this I mean 90% plus.
    On the latest YouGov, Reform have 52% of Leave voters and 8% of Remainers.

    https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/VotingIntention_MRP_250512_w.pdf
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,575
    @samfr.bsky.social‬

    Given how unpopular Starmer is this is quite a reflection on Farage and Badenoch.

    https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lq5gchfkys2i
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,425
    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927301278478090713

    Ref lead of 11pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 32% (+3)
    LAB: 21% (-)
    CON: 16% (-3)
    LDEM: 14% (+1)
    GRN: 11% (-)

    via @FindoutnowUK, 21 May
    Chgs. w/ 30 Apr
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,121

    carnforth said:

    "Poland joins eight countries calling for rethink of European rights convention in relation to migrants"

    https://notesfrompoland.com/2025/05/26/poland-joins-eight-countries-calling-for-rethink-of-european-rights-convention-in-relation-to-migrants/

    Signed by Meloni, Tusk, Frederiksen, Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic and all the Baltic states.
    Starmer can bring himself to be "anti immigration" but not "anti human rights".

    Of course, changing the convention is not actually anti human rights. But what would Philippe Sands say at the next dinner party?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927301278478090713

    Ref lead of 11pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 32% (+3)
    LAB: 21% (-)
    CON: 16% (-3)
    LDEM: 14% (+1)
    GRN: 11% (-)

    via @FindoutnowUK, 21 May
    Chgs. w/ 30 Apr

    Not sure why Britain elects is comparing the current poll to four polls ago. It's Ref -1 everyone else the same compared to 14 May
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,988
    Scott_xP said:

    @samfr.bsky.social‬

    Given how unpopular Starmer is this is quite a reflection on Farage and Badenoch.

    https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lq5gchfkys2i

    Based on OGH's old theory that it is the leader's ratings that matter then we are looking at two terms.
  • vikvik Posts: 436
    edited May 27

    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927301278478090713

    Ref lead of 11pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 32% (+3)
    LAB: 21% (-)
    CON: 16% (-3)
    LDEM: 14% (+1)
    GRN: 11% (-)

    via @FindoutnowUK, 21 May
    Chgs. w/ 30 Apr

    Not sure why Britain elects is comparing the current poll to four polls ago. It's Ref -1 everyone else the same compared to 14 May
    I think, the SNP is also -1 compared to 14 May. It's probably just rounding changes. (The total was 101 before & it's now 99.)
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