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Just 2% of the public think Badenoch will be PM after the next generalelection –politicalbetting.co

SystemSystem Posts: 12,473
edited May 18 in General
Just 2% of the public think Badenoch will be PM after the next general election – politicalbetting.com

More Britons expect Nigel Farage to be prime minister after the next election than Keir StarmerNigel Farage: 22%Keir Starmer: 14%New Labour leader: 8%New Tory leader: 7%New Reform UK leader: 3%Kemi Badenoch: 2%Don't know: 40%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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Comments

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,542
    edited May 18
    Surprised it's that high.

    FPT:
    F1: backing Aston Martin in three markets.

    Alonso's evens (2.05 boosted) to beat Hamilton, but his car was way faster in qualifying and he starts 8 (edited to 7, but still) places higher.

    I've also backed Alonso to beat the Williams/Ferraris (at 6, 6.5 boosted) in group 2. Williams are a threat but he does start ahead of them. Stroll to beat Hadjar, Gasly, and Antonelli in group 3 is my last bet, I've split a stake between the two group bets for roughly equal payout. That's 4, 4.1 with boost. Stroll isn't a good qualifier but still starts ahead of all the others in the group, and he's been solid in races for the most part this year.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/05/imola-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,445
    Second!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,783

    Surprised it's that high.

    I dunno, they must be pretty damn high to think she'll be PM.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,259
    edited May 18
    Third? (No). And Don't Know, the correct answer, wins.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,192
    As high as 2% !
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,016
    10% of the UK are deluded, a chimpanzee would tear them limb from limb.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,016
    Have Yougov provided a breakdown of that Brit vs animal polling by VI?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,986
    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    Kemi Badenoch was an enthusiastic supporter of both.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,783
    edited May 18
    Taz said:

    As high as 2% !

    It is the patriotic duty of these people to tell Sir Keir what they're smoking.

    12oz of it sold in the Far East and Moscow would not only clear the national debt but bring an abrupt halt to the war in Ukraine and the threat to Taiwan.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,741
    @Dura_Ace ”Ridden like Mountbatten’s aide de camp” is nautical language, I imagine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,416
    Sean_F said:

    @Dura_Ace ”Ridden like Mountbatten’s aide de camp” is nautical language, I imagine.

    Who was riding DuraAce in said manner ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,416
    2% is fair, given than more than that report themselves as having been self-decapitated in other polls.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,629
    Nigelb said:

    2% is fair, given than more than that report themselves as having been self-decapitated in other polls.

    Especially since, if this is the end of the Conservative Party, "self-decapititation" is a fair summary of their cause of death.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,306
    @HYUFD I see you were polled here
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,019
    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    Rishi Sunak might go down in history as the last Conservative Prime Minister, not the first Asian one.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,536
    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,986

    @HYUFD I see you were polled here

    I was polled too.

    I went for Starmer.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,071
    What do the Tories do? As awful as she is - and despite the attempts to defend her or excuse her she truly is awful - it's the party that is the problem, not her.

    Trashing your own reputation can be problematic. Ask Ed Milliband. The problem he had was that he let the Tories rewrite the facts and then said the rewrite was true.

    Here the facts are clear and unambiguous - a quick succession of terrible prime ministers doing nothing positive. What Kemi needed to do was throw them and their legacy under the bus. Claim that her own inaction on the areas she now demands action on was because of collective responsibility. And then propose The Big Thing that will make voters give them another look.

    She can't. She appears to believe that their record in government was fantastic, and the Big Thing appeared to have been penis identification. Oh dear...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,189
    Good morning everyone.

    So who won Eurovision?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,182
    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    And the Sunak administration. Please don't don't sugarcoat that shit on a stick shambles simply because it was more to your liking - the polling doesn't support it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,019
    Sean_F said:

    @Dura_Ace ”Ridden like Mountbatten’s aide de camp” is nautical language, I imagine.

    Given his vanity, love of uniforms, and high fashion, the fact Mountbatten managed to bury himself so deep in the closet is a historical wonder.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,182

    @HYUFD I see you were polled here

    I was polled too.

    I went for Starmer.
    :lol:

    Naughty boy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,986
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    So who won Eurovision?

    Austria, they saved me from going to the poorhouse.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,445
    Some Tory on LK frothing about Brexit yet again. Now wonder they are doomed.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,344

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    And the Sunak administration. Please don't don't sugarcoat that shit on a stick shambles simply because it was more to your liking - the polling doesn't support it.
    Yes. I blame the captain of the Titanic AFTER Edward Smith. He seems to get a pass from history, but the ship was still just as sunk during his tenure.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,986

    @HYUFD I see you were polled here

    I was polled too.

    I went for Starmer.
    :lol:

    Naughty boy.
    The assessment was based on a few things.

    1) Swing back

    2) The centre-left vote tactically

    3) Labour are more coalitionable than Reform.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,182

    @HYUFD I see you were polled here

    I was polled too.

    I went for Starmer.
    :lol:

    Naughty boy.
    The assessment was based on a few things.

    1) Swing back

    2) The centre-left vote tactically

    3) Labour are more coalitionable than Reform.
    Oh, you were serious.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,189
    I'm sure we did this poll.

    I distinctly remember instructing you all in the art of controlling a rampaging goose.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,614

    Sean_F said:

    @Dura_Ace ”Ridden like Mountbatten’s aide de camp” is nautical language, I imagine.

    Given his vanity, love of uniforms, and high fashion, the fact Mountbatten managed to bury himself so deep in the closet is a historical wonder.
    Don’t think it was buried that deeply (ooer!), I had it on good authority that he was known as Lord Mountbottom in the royal household. That was in the good old days when it didn’t matter what royals & assorted hangers-on did as long as the oiks didn’t get to know about it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,182

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    And the Sunak administration. Please don't don't sugarcoat that shit on a stick shambles simply because it was more to your liking - the polling doesn't support it.
    Yes. I blame the captain of the Titanic AFTER Edward Smith. He seems to get a pass from history, but the ship was still just as sunk during his tenure.
    Have some respect for yourself and look at the polls - you post on a site called political betting.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,182

    Sean_F said:

    @Dura_Ace ”Ridden like Mountbatten’s aide de camp” is nautical language, I imagine.

    Given his vanity, love of uniforms, and high fashion, the fact Mountbatten managed to bury himself so deep in the closet is a historical wonder.
    Don’t think it was buried that deeply (ooer!), I had it on good authority that he was known as Lord Mountbottom in the royal household. That was in the good old days when it didn’t matter what royals & assorted hangers-on did as long as the oiks didn’t get to know about it.
    We're very much back to that golden age in today's post-Leveson world, as many political leaders both North and South have reason to be grateful for.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,019

    Sean_F said:

    @Dura_Ace ”Ridden like Mountbatten’s aide de camp” is nautical language, I imagine.

    Given his vanity, love of uniforms, and high fashion, the fact Mountbatten managed to bury himself so deep in the closet is a historical wonder.
    Don’t think it was buried that deeply (ooer!), I had it on good authority that he was known as Lord Mountbottom in the royal household. That was in the good old days when it didn’t matter what royals & assorted hangers-on did as long as the oiks didn’t get to know about it.
    Also, he seemed remarkably unbothered about his wife riding Nehru too.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,629

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    More sadly, I think it goes even deeper.

    May didn't deliver either, and wouldn't have done so even with a majority, and some of the problems we face today date back to remarkably superficial and cynical political decisions taken under the Coalition.

    I think the Conservatives broke their wick in the 1990s, and never got it back.
    Pretty much. In my voting lifetime, the Conservatives have managed a big win (2019), a couple of squeaky majorities (1992, 2015), a couple of coalitions (2010, 2017), a solid loss (2005) and three mega-landslide defeats (1997, 2001, 2024).

    Worse than that, the only big win came from Farage largely stepping aside. It's not a great record.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,189
    edited May 18
    Reform / AFD electoral comparison - not ideological.

    Reform are now running 10 Councils, and are largest party in NOC councils elsewhere.

    AFD did reasonably well (meaning big improvement but not as much as thought possible) at the recent German Election.

    Had the AFD run any important Councils before? Did the Electorate have any indication whether they were competent?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,741

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    More sadly, I think it goes even deeper.

    May didn't deliver either, and wouldn't have done so even with a majority, and some of the problems we face today date back to remarkably superficial and cynical political decisions taken under the Coalition.

    I think the Conservatives broke their wick in the 1990s, and never got it back.
    That is also true. A good chunk of the 45% won in 2019 was simply lent to the Conservatives.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,707
    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,536
    Morning all :)

    It may be those hoping for the death of the Conservative Party are somewhat premature. Parties change and evolve so they become unrecognisable from previous incarnations.

    The problem for the Conservatives is, having been used to being either the Party of Government or the only credible alternative Government (however remote a prospect that might have seemed at some points as it did for Labour), they face the prospect of minor party status and all that doesn't flow from it.

    The LDs have been a minor party for decades - they are used to being ignored and ridiculed. The Conservatives aren't - yes, they still have over 4,000 Councillors and 121 MPs so they remain a force but the trend isn't looking promising currently.

    Could they re-invent? Yes, but as what? Reform's junior but more likeable partner? A more rural based grouping analogous to the Country parties you see in other democracies?

    The irony is the Conservatives spent the 20th Century swallowing up disparate parts of the Liberal movement - Liberal Nationals, National Liberals etc. Perhaps the 21st Century will see the Liberal Democrats absorb the rump of Liberal Conservatives while the others end up with Reform - who knows?

    The only thing of which I'm certain is nothing is certain - Keir Starmer looked the least likely of Prime Ministers in the spring of 2021 but look what happened to him. Kemi Badenoch needs a little "luck" and who knows what could happen?
  • vikvik Posts: 385
    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,073
    It's the extremely well paid and the comfortably retired as their core now. Their policies have repelled everyone else.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,019
    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,445
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    It may be those hoping for the death of the Conservative Party are somewhat premature. Parties change and evolve so they become unrecognisable from previous incarnations.

    The problem for the Conservatives is, having been used to being either the Party of Government or the only credible alternative Government (however remote a prospect that might have seemed at some points as it did for Labour), they face the prospect of minor party status and all that doesn't flow from it.

    The LDs have been a minor party for decades - they are used to being ignored and ridiculed. The Conservatives aren't - yes, they still have over 4,000 Councillors and 121 MPs so they remain a force but the trend isn't looking promising currently.

    Could they re-invent? Yes, but as what? Reform's junior but more likeable partner? A more rural based grouping analogous to the Country parties you see in other democracies?

    The irony is the Conservatives spent the 20th Century swallowing up disparate parts of the Liberal movement - Liberal Nationals, National Liberals etc. Perhaps the 21st Century will see the Liberal Democrats absorb the rump of Liberal Conservatives while the others end up with Reform - who knows?

    The only thing of which I'm certain is nothing is certain - Keir Starmer looked the least likely of Prime Ministers in the spring of 2021 but look what happened to him. Kemi Badenoch needs a little "luck" and who knows what could happen?

    At least they have a party, with (most of) the right wing nutters in another party, unlike their American counterparts who are sitting held hostage in the GOP just hoping that one day, sanity might return.

    Meanwhile, perhaps the Tories should reflect on the merits of a fairer voting system?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,707
    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    Correlation is not causation. And, besides, there are many counter examples

    Rightwing populism is driven by many things. Top of a long list is mass migration. Covid response might be in the list but it’s not top 10
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,189
    edited May 18
    An Economist piece I ran across from 2019: Prosecution in Arizona of a man who gave assistance (water, food, clothing) to migrants in the desert, for "harbouring migrants". He was initially on a conspiracy charge, carrying a potential 20 year sentence.

    This will be coming back. It's quite an American case, turning around his 'spiritual' motives as a Unitarian being a justification afaics. They had found ~3000 dead migrants in Southern Arizona's deserts in the period 2001-2019.
    https://archive.is/xlqxg

    Context:

    On 21 November 2019, migrant rights defender Dr. Scott Warren was found not guilty by an Arizona court on two counts of “harbouring migrants” for providing them with food, water and clean clothing. The jury unanimously agreed that the human rights defender was lawfully carrying out life-saving humanitarian aid by providing assistance to two men crossing the border on foot.

    On 12 November 2019, the United States authorities will prosecute migrant rights defender Dr. Scott Warren for the second time, charged with harbouring two migrants, after he provided them with humanitarian assistance in his town of Ajo, Arizona.


    https://www.frontlinedefenders.org/en/case/scott-warren-facing-20-year-prison-sentence-providing-humanitarian-aid
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,746
    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    I think Johnson would be content with his place in history as not only the mastermind behind Brexit, but the disintegration of both the Labour and Conservative parties.

    If that all makes him more than a footnote in, history, he'd take that.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,536

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Being Prime Minister was the job Boris always wanted and he had schemed for more than 20 years to bring it about. He played both sides of the Referendum debate and in the end chose the right one.

    As a campaigner, with the ability to say whatever he thought the audience in front of him wanted to hear, he was brilliant and his success in December 2019, though as much a rejection of the absurd tactics of the Opposition parties under May in trying to block the implementation of the referendum result and the ludicrous policies of Corbyn, gave him a mandate.

    Unfortuantely, instead of the PM role as cheerleader-in-chief for Global Britain in the 2020s, he found himself within weeks having to do things he probably hated doing in the core of his soul and he soon realised the job of Prime Minister wasn't what he wanted or hoped but something very different.

    Was he unlucky? To a point - is there a counterfactual where absent Covid and war in the Ukraine, he could be Prime Minister to this day? Yes.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,707

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,267
    Good morning

    As I have said I am ambivalent to Kemi but can understand why serious questions are being asked of her

    At the Welsh Conservative Conference in Llangollen last week she referred to the Welsh conservative members of the Senedd as MSPs not MS clearly confusing the Scottish and Welsh parliament members

    I expect Reform and Plaid to sweep through Wales at next year's Senedd elections leaving both labour and conservatives in a dire position

    This will be the time of greatest peril to Kemi and I would not be surprised to see her resign her position

    In truth, the problem is not so much Kemi but that which preceded her and as with Labour, they have several years to try to recover and to all those celebrating the demise of the conservative party be careful for what you wish for with Farage and Reform ready to turn UK into a mini Trump tribute act
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,629
    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    One bit of it, I understand. If you believe in Uncaging the Butterfly, massive liberalisation of immigration goes with that. (There was a popular current affairs magazine that went big on that image. You may have heard of it.) And around the 2016 campaign, BoJo talked about inviting our friends from the Commonwealth in. For once, he was telling the truth.

    Another bit, I sort of understand. After 2016, the only way the government could see of keeping the wheels turning was to import more people. Student numbers went up because we were desperate for their fees. And so on.

    A third bit looks like gross incompetence. Something seems to have gone horribly wrong with the social care visa system, that wouldn't have happened in a well-run state.

    But ultimately, May was right and Team 2019-24 were wrong. The Brexit landing point to aim for was to control the borders for people at minimal economic hit, so just accepting Brussels rules on everything else. But that's about as far from Uncaging the Butterfly as you can get.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,071
    Leon said:

    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    Correlation is not causation. And, besides, there are many counter examples

    Rightwing populism is driven by many things. Top of a long list is mass migration. Covid response might be in the list but it’s not top 10
    The problem with "its migration" is of course what happens as and when mass migration stops.

    There is a veneer or "too many people who look and sound different" but at its heart the migration push back is economic.

    The challenge for a supposed Reform government is that if there is an abrupt freeze in migration, the economy gets worse, not better. Which is the exact opposite of what punters expect.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,445

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    I think Johnson would be content with his place in history as not only the mastermind behind Brexit, but the disintegration of both the Labour and Conservative parties.

    If that all makes him more than a footnote in, history, he'd take that.
    I guess Lord North would similarly be proud of his Wikipedia entry?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,600
    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    Yet the UK Conservatives were well ahead in the polls as covid faded away in 2021.

    It was the only the revelations of the personal conduct of Conservative politicians (especially Boris) and then the Truss debacle which destroyed their support.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,430
    edited May 18
    Nigelb said:

    2% is fair, given than more than that report themselves as having been self-decapitated in other polls.

    I remember a YouGov poll where 3% believed the earth is flat. That does feel substantially more likely than Olukemi ever gracing us with her gummy grin from the front doorstep of No. 10.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,707

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    I think Johnson would be content with his place in history as not only the mastermind behind Brexit, but the disintegration of both the Labour and Conservative parties.

    If that all makes him more than a footnote in, history, he'd take that.
    Unfortunately there is some truth in what you say

    Boris has many flaws and virtues. A complex man. One of his biggest flaws is a need to be noticed. To be consequential

    If he personally destroys the two party system then he will definitely be seen, by history, as consequential. His country might be less positive about his legacy
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,189
    edited May 18
    Catching up.

    I see that Austria won, we came 19th from 37 entries, and that GB News are cross about something which is all the BBC's fault. Another day !

    https://www.gbnews.com/celebrity/bbc-eurovision-leaderboard-results-row-backlash-austria-israel
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,019
    Leon said:

    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    Correlation is not causation. And, besides, there are many counter examples

    Rightwing populism is driven by many things. Top of a long list is mass migration. Covid response might be in the list but it’s not top 10
    Blair started to go off the boil in 2004, due to Iraq (liberal interventionism) and immigration (liberal borders).

    Cameron and Osborne then rode the unpopularity of Gordon Brown and the GFC to double-down on social and economic liberalism, with essentially the same beliefs except in slightly lower taxes.

    Now, there's nothing wrong with being "liberal" as a philosophy but it was remarkably dogmatic and tone-deaf to the mood of the electorate.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,019
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
    It's not a secret. I had a drink with Dan Hannan at a Vote Leave event shortly before the vote, and he essentially said this to my face. And then told me George Osborne told him he, personally, favoured the euro.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,740

    @HYUFD I see you were polled here

    I was polled too.

    I went for Starmer.
    So did I.

    There are plenty of examples of parties and PMs being extremely unpopular a year into their tenure, that have won the following election 3 or 4 years later.

    Also, there are a lot of Labour MPs now that will be building up their incumbency factor.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,232

    Leon said:

    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    Correlation is not causation. And, besides, there are many counter examples

    Rightwing populism is driven by many things. Top of a long list is mass migration. Covid response might be in the list but it’s not top 10
    Blair started to go off the boil in 2004, due to Iraq (liberal interventionism) and immigration (liberal borders).

    Cameron and Osborne then rode the unpopularity of Gordon Brown and the GFC to double-down on social and economic liberalism, with essentially the same beliefs except in slightly lower taxes.

    Now, there's nothing wrong with being "liberal" as a philosophy but it was remarkably dogmatic and tone-deaf to the mood of the electorate.
    Iraq was a neocon project rather than liberal interventionism.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,600
    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    Many of their problems predate that.

    for example the increase in student fees crippled them among young graduates.

    Something which was accentuated by unaffordable housing in southern England.

    The Conservatives became reliant upon the support of the over 50s and C2s.

    Demographics which Farage could be attractive to.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,430
    MattW said:

    Reform / AFD electoral comparison - not ideological.

    Reform are now running 10 Councils, and are largest party in NOC councils elsewhere.

    AFD did reasonably well (meaning big improvement but not as much as thought possible) at the recent German Election.

    Had the AFD run any important Councils before? Did the Electorate have any indication whether they were competent?

    Reform outperformed in their strongest areas (Kent, Lincolnshire) compared to the AFD on Thuringia. Also the electoral system helped Reform here for councils compared to Germany's landtag
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,707

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
    It's not a secret. I had a drink with Dan Hannan at a Vote Leave event shortly before the vote, and he essentially said this to my face. And then told me George Osborne told him he, personally, favoured the euro.
    Dunno about Hannan. Very bright bloke but when Starmer did the Indian deal he seemed genuinely mystified by the angry reaction re visas and NIC

    Which is frankly stupid. It’s obvious British voters are angry about immigration and deeply allergic to the idea of more. Even Starmer gets this

    Maybe Hannan is an example of that curious phenomenon, the very clever person who is bizarrely thick on certain issues
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,192
    dixiedean said:

    It's the extremely well paid and the comfortably retired as their core now. Their policies have repelled everyone else.

    What policies. They don’t seem to have any. What do they even stand for these days ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,019

    Leon said:

    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    Correlation is not causation. And, besides, there are many counter examples

    Rightwing populism is driven by many things. Top of a long list is mass migration. Covid response might be in the list but it’s not top 10
    Blair started to go off the boil in 2004, due to Iraq (liberal interventionism) and immigration (liberal borders).

    Cameron and Osborne then rode the unpopularity of Gordon Brown and the GFC to double-down on social and economic liberalism, with essentially the same beliefs except in slightly lower taxes.

    Now, there's nothing wrong with being "liberal" as a philosophy but it was remarkably dogmatic and tone-deaf to the mood of the electorate.
    Iraq was a neocon project rather than liberal interventionism.
    Same shit, different label.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,416
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
    And yet you voted for all this stuff.
    Including the current lot.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,422
    I agree with others on here that it is less about Badenoch (though she isn’t doing well by any means) and more about the general state of the Tory Party.

    It might be that they have simply terminally damaged their brand. We can point to pendulums swinging back over time but there’s no law of the universe that this must happen. Maybe considering their myriad failings in government they’re just too far gone for a recovery, particularly when there is a competing party of the right.

    I think if we are going to point to one potentially fatal wound, the Truss episode in particular did tremendous damage to them. Not only because Truss was incompetent and overpromoted, but also because removing a PM after a month just doesn’t make a party look serious about governing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,019
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
    It's not a secret. I had a drink with Dan Hannan at a Vote Leave event shortly before the vote, and he essentially said this to my face. And then told me George Osborne told him he, personally, favoured the euro.
    Dunno about Hannan. Very bright bloke but when Starmer did the Indian deal he seemed genuinely mystified by the angry reaction re visas and NIC

    Which is frankly stupid. It’s obvious British voters are angry about immigration and deeply allergic to the idea of more. Even Starmer gets this

    Maybe Hannan is an example of that curious phenomenon, the very clever person who is bizarrely thick on certain issues
    Tbf, he didn't say he believed in open borders - but he did say he had no real issue with free movement, and that wasn't the vote was about for him.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,629

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
    It's not a secret. I had a drink with Dan Hannan at a Vote Leave event shortly before the vote, and he essentially said this to my face. And then told me George Osborne told him he, personally, favoured the euro.
    Ultimately, the theory of revolutions in the Book inside 1984 was roughly right. The ambitious but thwarted second-tier elite (Johnson, Gove, Cummings, Hannan etc) briefly co-opted the downtrodden majority to topple the actual elite (Cameron, Osborne etc). Then the proles were to be dumped back in their place. How far Farage would do the same remains to be seen.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,600

    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    Yet the UK Conservatives were well ahead in the polls as covid faded away in 2021.

    It was the only the revelations of the personal conduct of Conservative politicians (especially Boris) and then the Truss debacle which destroyed their support.
    A 'what if' is what would have happened if the Matt Hancock pinecalda story hadn't happened a week before the Batley byelection ?

    Its very possible that the Conservatives would have won (Labour only held it by 323) and if so does Keir Starmer then survive as Labour leader ?

    Would we now have PM Angela Rayner or even PM Rebecca Long-Bailey ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,090

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    Rishi Sunak might go down in history as the last Conservative Prime Minister, not the first Asian one.
    Nah, we all thought Major would be the last Tory PM back in 1997.
  • novanova Posts: 794
    MattW said:

    Catching up.

    I see that Austria won, we came 19th from 37 entries, and that GB News are cross about something which is all the BBC's fault. Another day !

    https://www.gbnews.com/celebrity/bbc-eurovision-leaderboard-results-row-backlash-austria-israel

    It wasn't so long ago that when people debated the news, the major complaint was a lack of good news.

    Now all we get is outrage - mostly confected.

    Simple bad news seems like the good old days.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,189
    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    Reform / AFD electoral comparison - not ideological.

    Reform are now running 10 Councils, and are largest party in NOC councils elsewhere.

    AFD did reasonably well (meaning big improvement but not as much as thought possible) at the recent German Election.

    Had the AFD run any important Councils before? Did the Electorate have any indication whether they were competent?

    Reform outperformed in their strongest areas (Kent, Lincolnshire) compared to the AFD on Thuringia. Also the electoral system helped Reform here for councils compared to Germany's landtag
    TBF also, the Councils here were a top slice of likely Reform areas - not all likely Reform areas, but a concentration of them.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,333

    Leon said:

    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    Correlation is not causation. And, besides, there are many counter examples

    Rightwing populism is driven by many things. Top of a long list is mass migration. Covid response might be in the list but it’s not top 10
    Blair started to go off the boil in 2004, due to Iraq (liberal interventionism) and immigration (liberal borders).

    Cameron and Osborne then rode the unpopularity of Gordon Brown and the GFC to double-down on social and economic liberalism, with essentially the same beliefs except in slightly lower taxes.

    Now, there's nothing wrong with being "liberal" as a philosophy but it was remarkably dogmatic and tone-deaf to the mood of the electorate.
    Iraq was a neocon project rather than liberal interventionism.
    Same shit, different label.
    In some ways that’s true. One may be “liberal” and the other conservative in ideology, but they are both universalist, evangelical religions. Akin to Islam or Christianity.

    MAGA is different, more like Judaism or Shinto or most Hinduism. Not particularly evangelical, more identitarian and introspective.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,600
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
    It's not a secret. I had a drink with Dan Hannan at a Vote Leave event shortly before the vote, and he essentially said this to my face. And then told me George Osborne told him he, personally, favoured the euro.
    Dunno about Hannan. Very bright bloke but when Starmer did the Indian deal he seemed genuinely mystified by the angry reaction re visas and NIC

    Which is frankly stupid. It’s obvious British voters are angry about immigration and deeply allergic to the idea of more. Even Starmer gets this

    Maybe Hannan is an example of that curious phenomenon, the very clever person who is bizarrely thick on certain issues
    Hannan is an intellectual right-wing globalist.

    He was born abroad, had a posho education, then a political career, was 20+ years a MEP.

    I don't think he has much knowledge of, interest in or empathy towards British people.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,073
    edited May 18
    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    It's the extremely well paid and the comfortably retired as their core now. Their policies have repelled everyone else.

    What policies. They don’t seem to have any. What do they even stand for these days ?
    I meant their policies whilst in government.
    They continue to insist they were ace.
    Which they were for those two narrow groups
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,333
    edited May 18
    Interesting anecdote from an otherwise totally apolitical reunion in Hereford yesterday.

    (Hereford has had a weird recent history as our Herefordian travel writer has noted: the old town centre has been hollowed out by a new shopping mall in the old cattle market and looks desolate. But the other bits of town remain pretty and reasonably prosperous).

    A lot of recent politics seems to be about frustration that despite promises by everyone to fix things, nothing happens. Right? Well speaking to people from North Herefordshire that’s precisely the reason the greens won the seat in 2024. Chicken farmers have been dumping organic waste close to the Wye for years, and the river and groundwater are eutrophic and blighted. What used to be a clear, swimmable river brimming with salmon and trout is dead.

    But nothing has been done. The previous Tory MP was an ex farmer and never made a concerted effort to get it fixed. The Green vote was a vote of frustration. Pretty much a single issue election.

    I was aware of the long running issue but the whole “and nobody did anything despite years of campaigning” was interesting.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,740

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    Many of their problems predate that.

    for example the increase in student fees crippled them among young graduates.

    Something which was accentuated by unaffordable housing in southern England.

    The Conservatives became reliant upon the support of the over 50s and C2s.

    Demographics which Farage could be attractive to.
    Much of that vote, white van man, taxi driver, golf club bore, only voted Conservative because there was no realistic alternative further to the right. Not they have that alternative.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,970
    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega,
    BSW and others have emerged.
    The other aspect is that the way people get their news has changed. If you read the papers or watched TV you might get a biased slant but you essentially got the facts.

    With social media algorithms you don’t even get that - you get a distorted world view and an echo chamber designed to make you angry and frustrated.

    That’s where reform needs to happen to save our democracy - it’s old school demagoguery but with no escape and a much broader reach.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,616
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    2% is fair, given than more than that report themselves as having been self-decapitated in other polls.

    I remember a YouGov poll where 3% believed the earth is flat. That does feel substantially more likely than Olukemi ever gracing us with her gummy grin from the front doorstep of No. 10.
    It is flat, isn't it?...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,552
    I don't think the "Boriswave" would be anywhere as salient if it wasn't for the Albanian small boats surge in 2022. Looking at the stats, there has been a gradual increase in work visas since COVID, a bit spike in student visas in 2022, and a big spike in small boats in 2022.

    The Conservatives got really unlucky with the timing of that spike.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,073

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    Many of their problems predate that.

    for example the increase in student fees crippled them among young graduates.

    Something which was accentuated by unaffordable housing in southern England.

    The Conservatives became reliant upon the support of the over 50s and C2s.

    Demographics which Farage could be attractive to.
    Much of that vote, white van man, taxi driver, golf club bore, only voted Conservative because there was no realistic alternative further to the right. Not they have that alternative.
    I'd phrase that slightly differently.
    There was no realistic alternative which wasn't to the left.
    They don't necessarily want it to be more right wing.
    Just a lot less hedge Fundy.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 187
    As I understand it, the Tories (before Peel and the Reform Act) were a very loose coalition indeed. The greatest 'Tory' PM, Pitt the Younger, refused to referred to himself as a Tory and preferred to be described as 'Independent Whig'. Conservative was used for a while in the 19th C, but then fell out of use and mostly became Unionist for a half a century or so. The "Conservative club' in Leighton Buzzard is the 'Unionist Club', as carved into the sandstone and I believe the PMs from the time of its foundation, Salisbury and Balfour, governed as Unionists not Conservatives. We remember them all as 'Tory PMs'.

    If Nigel Farrage does become PM and a much diminished rump of Conservative MPs fall in behind him, my guess is that, in 100 years, people will refer to Farrage as a 'Tory PM' too. History prefers simplicity and ultimately these are just different shades of blue.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,600
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
    It should be remembered that there was a big increase in NHS employment in recent years - much of that was inevitably through immigration.

    I also wonder if the London focus of Boris was a factor.

    As London is far, far more dependent on immigrants for hospitality, construction, care workers etc did Boris see nothing problematic about migration of such people ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,416
    Dura_Ace said:

    The Boriswave was 100% about ameliorating the economic vandalism of brexit and avoiding any real restructuring. This was predicted ahead of time by those of us who can 𝙴𝚇𝚃𝚁𝙰𝙿𝙾𝙻𝙰𝚃𝙴.


    Subcontinent rather than East Asia ?
    But otherwise, rather more foresight than those who remain astonished and dismayed by the 'Boriswave' that their votes enabled.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,740
    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    Many of their problems predate that.

    for example the increase in student fees crippled them among young graduates.

    Something which was accentuated by unaffordable housing in southern England.

    The Conservatives became reliant upon the support of the over 50s and C2s.

    Demographics which Farage could be attractive to.
    Much of that vote, white van man, taxi driver, golf club bore, only voted Conservative because there was no realistic alternative further to the right. Not they have that alternative.
    I'd phrase that slightly differently.
    There was no realistic alternative which wasn't to the left.
    They don't necessarily want it to be more right wing.
    Just a lot less hedge Fundy.
    Thinking about that demographic, they are self employed or small business owners, who want more control over their lives, hence self employed, and less control by government. Traditional old school Conservatives.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,045
    vik said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    It's Sunday morning and I'm in a reasonable mood so I'm going to be charitable to the Conservative Party (frame this, it doesn't happen often).

    Putting the whole EU business to one side (not easy but the ramifications of departure have been overstated by both sides), it wasn't easy being in Government at the start of the 2020s.

    You had the biggest public health emergency since WW2 and the outbreak of armed conflict in or near Europe - each on their own was destabilising, both together were and have been disastrous.

    We can, have and no doubt will again debate the UK Government to COVID but the point was the Government put health before wealth - the economy was basically closed down for three months (the PMI graph is frightening) to protect people from the virus. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of that - it happened. The consequences of the dislocation were both immediate and longer lasting, indeed, well after the vaccine had been rolled out and the immediate threat ended.

    Then came the Russian invasion of Ukraine which, far from being the swift decisive action Putin and Moscow might have hoped, has turned into a bloody war of attrition more like WW1 than what we think of as modern warfare.

    The big problem was when the pent up demand was released - people who had spent little or nothing for months and had accumulated cash reserves wanted to spend but the struggling global supply chains meant many things were in short supply - the result, inflation. It was that which killed Governments world wide, the fact of big price rises making everyone feel worse off.

    Governments took the blame and felt the anger - after 14 years leading the Government, the UK Conservatives had nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. In many ways, it did for them as the 2008 crisis had done for Governments then.

    Traditional politics of what you might call "the centre" has been discredited twice and it's understandable people look elsewhere - if you want to call it nationalist, socially conservative, anti-immigrant, populist or whatever, parties like Reform, VOX, Chega, BSW and others have emerged.
    I think the reason that the COVID response led to disillusionment with the centre & with liberal/intellectual elites in certain countries, but not others could be differences in COVID death rates.

    Both the UK & the US had relatively high COVID death rates. The UK death rate was 3404 per million and the US one was 3493 per million. Both countries are now experiencing a rise of populist movements.

    Conversely, Australia had a very low death rate of 963 per million, while Canada's was 1424 per million. In both Canada and Australia, there hasn't been any significant populist movement, and the centre has retained broad political support.

    I think it's possible that the high death rates in the UK & USA led to a perception that COVID restrictions were imposed by the "elites" but that these policies "failed" because there was still a large number of deaths.

    In Australia & Canada, there is a perhaps a different perception that the restrictions were worth it, in terms of saving lots of lives, and therefore that the "elites" are competent & know what they are doing.
    No, it was the other way around. The countries which did best with COVID were ones where there was trust between government and governed. Decades of bullshit from the media in this country had already broken that trust by 2020.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,192
    Bit of green on green action here between the two factions.

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1923829928203575665?s=61
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,887

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Boriswave may turn out to be the single most consequential act by a British government in a generation. Two generations. Bigger than Brexit

    Because not only has it - apparently - killed the Tories it may also have scuppered Labour and instead propelled a populist right wing party into the lead

    Like a kind of political atom bomb with unpredictable fallout

    What were they thinking?!

    Nothing. They weren't.

    It was clear after Boris won in Dec 2019, that he intended to do absolutely fuck all in office except make speeches and bonk Carrie.

    The only real success he had was the Brexit deal, where I think Frost actually did a good job.
    Some PBer (apologies, forget who) posited the theory that they knowingly allowed the Boriswave because they were scared care/NHS etc would collapse after Brexit and the ending of FOM

    It’s not a great theory but at least it’s a theory. There aren’t many

    I’ve also heard it argued that some Brexiteers are secret Open Borders types. They genuinely believe in this lunacy. If so they should be REDACTED

    Otherwise we are left with simple but grotesque incompetence
    It's my theory based on actual conversations.

    You also forget that Boris Johnson has always been pro-immigration prior to Brexit, he argued for an amnesty for illegals in the early 2000s.

    Plus he has only ever had one principle in his life, making sure Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister.

    I was at at a meeting in September 2014 at conference where Boris Johnson privately said people who voted UKIP or backed Brexit were the sort of people who had sex with vacuum cleaners*.

    18 months later he was backing Brexit.

    In some ways Boris Johnson is a lot like Gordon Brown, both wanted to be PM their entire lives but once they got into Number 10 they had no bloody idea what they wanted to do.

    *His public version was people who vote UKIP are people who end up in A&E with barely believable injuries involving vacuum cleaners.
    Its entirely possible of course to abhor UKIP/Farage and support Brexit.

    There's a reason that Boris's Vote Leave didn't permit Farage anywhere near the campaign. I suspect Remain would have won had Farage fronted the campaign.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,634
    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sadly, this is all self-inflicted. The Johnson/Truss administrations simply destroyed the trust and confidence of their supporters.

    Many of their problems predate that.

    for example the increase in student fees crippled them among young graduates.

    Something which was accentuated by unaffordable housing in southern England.

    The Conservatives became reliant upon the support of the over 50s and C2s.

    Demographics which Farage could be attractive to.
    Much of that vote, white van man, taxi driver, golf club bore, only voted Conservative because there was no realistic alternative further to the right. Not they have that alternative.
    I'd phrase that slightly differently.
    There was no realistic alternative which wasn't to the left.
    They don't necessarily want it to be more right wing.
    Just a lot less hedge Fundy.
    Yes, I think so too.

    A Conservative party that actually wants to conserve the bets things about Britain is not something that we have seen in some time. Just one that sees globalism as the future. I think the Reform leadership are much the same, but if they do wind up with 300 MPs, I suspect most would be like Lee Anderson or Grimes.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,344

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    2% is fair, given than more than that report themselves as having been self-decapitated in other polls.

    I remember a YouGov poll where 3% believed the earth is flat. That does feel substantially more likely than Olukemi ever gracing us with her gummy grin from the front doorstep of No. 10.
    It is flat, isn't it?...
    Approximately, yes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,416
    UK government dropped health push after lobbying by ultra-processed food firms

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2025/may/17/uk-government-drops-healthy-eating-push-after-lobbying-by-ultra-processed-food-firms
    ...The U-turn, revealed for the first time, occurred on 1 June 2023 under Rishi Sunak’s government, the Guardian found. The change remains in the current government’s guidance being issued to retailers ahead of the law change in October.

    It came after the FDF waged a campaign to put pressure on the DHSC to rewrite its nutrition policy, lobbying officials to remove the push to minimally processed food in the guidance issued to retailers, according to documents and emails reviewed by the Guardian.

    In response to a freedom of information request, the government released a cache of emails between the FDF and the DHSC.

    Most of the correspondence was heavily redacted. The government cited section 40(2) of the Freedom of Information Act, “which provides for the protection of personal information”, and section 35(1)(a), “which provides protection for the information that relates to the formulation or development of government policy”.

    The emails, sent between October 2022 and April 2023, reveal how the FDF, which represents firms with a combined annual turnover of more than £112bn, lobbied the DHSC to drop the guidance pushing retailers to promote minimally processed food...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,090
    Anyway, good morning all!

    I've already forgotten how Austria's winning Eurovision song goes :lol:
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