Since this is a site where politics can be discussed -- on some subjects -- I'll add these two comments: When abortion became a national issue in the US, it became so in part in an effort to slow the increase in the number of Catholics -- who mostly voted Democratic. Later, that shifted more to an effort to slow the increase in the number of blacks -- who mostly voted Democratic. Understanding this, Jesse Jackson opposed abortion early in his political career, calling the number of black babies aborted, a "holocaust". He was quite frank about his shift later, saying he had done so to stay competitive in the Democratic Party.
I have always admired Nat Hentoff for his consistency; he opposed abortion, and the death penalty, for, as he saw it, the same reason. It is odd that so many on the left favor the first, and oppose the second. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Hentoff
(For the record: I think the death penalty appropriate in some instances -- and that it is impossible to ban abortions entirely, without limiting our freedoms, drastically.)
I wonder which year was the last year that Eurovision didn't make a conscious effort to appear camp.
Yes. It’s the laboured contrived industrialised campness which makes Eurovision so disgusting and unwatchable. It’s not funny or transgressive any more - it’s a product being forced on you
Eurovision is to camp what McDonalds is to a really good burger. It’s about as transgressive as Disney - but far less skilful
It only appeals to morons who don’t get this, at this point
The only people I know interested in Eurovision are friends of mine who are gay and commenters on PB.
I think it's got its target market nailed on.
I only realised this year why I have come to despise Eurovision, rather than merely ignore it
I used to vaguely watch it, a long time ago
But the pre-packaged, utterly fake, industrially pasteurised "campness" is now rebarbative, and speaks to a sickness. Fuck it to high heaven, and beyond
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
And yet the proportion of people who are agnostic and/or atheist keeps on growing.
"Way back in 2016 when journalists/pundits/blue-checks (2016 version) were going crazy with "How did Trump possibly win" and offering up all sorts of crazy atavistic explanations, a few of us who had actually talked to voters before this, and so were not surprised, said, "Well, a whole lot of the country thinks the system is corrupt and you elites now screaming are who they think are the most corrupted," and they thought about that for a moment and said, "Naaaaaaah, American voters are dirty racist idiots and we don't need to change a bit,"
"And then they go and pull off the whole Biden isn't senile thing—which is more and more looking like they covered for a deeply detached and mentally incompetent president while a cadre of unelected bureaucrats could run stuff the way they wanted to run stuff and then they kept trying to do this telling whoever pointed it out that Biden sure looked out of it that no, don't believe your eyes, no you instead were lying misinformation spreaders who needed more education and were fascists as well, which because Biden was now so clearly a zombie that no amount of their usual big word lying could hide they got caught, and the result is the very person they hate the most, Trump, got elected again.
It really boggles the mind that a group could be lacking this much self awareness, this incompetent, and keep on stepping on rakes they way they do, all without suffering any consequences or moral reflection"
I think it's fair to say that the Dems had the worst of all possible worlds in 2016; a poor, or at least dreadfully advised, candidate and a poor campaign. They had a better campaign in 2020 but really should have had a younger candidate; surely somewhere there was a Governor or other prominent Dem who could have run?
Had Biden been Democratic nominee in 2016, as by rights historically he should have been as incumbent VP, he probably would have beaten Trump narrowly.
However the Democratic establishment insisted it had to be Hillary and she was the ideal candidate for Trump to beat and so Biden had to be called out of retirement to run in 2020 when he should have been running for his second term not his first, in which case win or lose he would not have been running last year when he was too old anyway
If Biden (or Hillary) had won in 2016, then Trump would have done the same thing he did in 2020. He would have claimed that the election was stolen.
Biden would have faced a hostile Senate and Congress, and would be unable to to anything. This would have caused increased disillusionment among Democrats. Meanwhile, Republicans would get angrier and angier after 12 years of rule by Democratic Presidents.
In 2020, Covid would happen, and Congressional Republicans would do their best to crash the economy so that Biden lost the upcoming election. Republicans would be even angrier if a Democratic President tried to impose Covid restrictions, and there would be mass civil unrest by Republicans protesting against these restrictions.
Trump would have kept his second candidacy viable by continuing to claim that the 2016 election had been rigged against him. In an atmosphere of intense Republican anger, he would have won the 2020 nomination and then because of the crashing Covid economy, he would have won the 2020 election in a landslide.
He would have been a lot better than Biden at claiming credit for the post-Covid recovery, and wouldn't have lost control of the border, and would have easily won re-election in 2024.
Had Trump lost in 2016 the GOP may well have picked Cruz or Rubio in 2020 instead
As long as Trump ran again, and he would have, he would have easily dispatched Cruz and Rubio, and anyone else who ran against him in the primaries.
He has immense charisma because of his TV career, he is amazingly good at communicating on social media, and most importantly he is able to effectively channel the visceral anger that the Republican base feels towards liberals and Democrats.
He would have spent the entire 4 years from 2016 to 2020 stoking the anger of the Republicans against all the things that Biden was doing, and all of Biden's communist Covid restrictions, and how the 2016 election was stolen. He would easily won the 2020 Republican nomination.
Get the feeling that Norton didn’t want Israel to win. Not sure what he was on about re going to Tel Aviv. Suffice to say, it wouldn’t have been in Israel.
Get the feeling that Norton didn’t want Israel to win. Not sure what he was on about re going to Tel Aviv. Suffice to say, it wouldn’t have been in Israel.
Get the feeling that Norton didn’t want Israel to win. Not sure what he was on about re going to Tel Aviv. Suffice to say, it wouldn’t have been in Israel.
Presumably would have been Estonia following the UK/Ukraine precedent
"Way back in 2016 when journalists/pundits/blue-checks (2016 version) were going crazy with "How did Trump possibly win" and offering up all sorts of crazy atavistic explanations, a few of us who had actually talked to voters before this, and so were not surprised, said, "Well, a whole lot of the country thinks the system is corrupt and you elites now screaming are who they think are the most corrupted," and they thought about that for a moment and said, "Naaaaaaah, American voters are dirty racist idiots and we don't need to change a bit,"
"And then they go and pull off the whole Biden isn't senile thing—which is more and more looking like they covered for a deeply detached and mentally incompetent president while a cadre of unelected bureaucrats could run stuff the way they wanted to run stuff and then they kept trying to do this telling whoever pointed it out that Biden sure looked out of it that no, don't believe your eyes, no you instead were lying misinformation spreaders who needed more education and were fascists as well, which because Biden was now so clearly a zombie that no amount of their usual big word lying could hide they got caught, and the result is the very person they hate the most, Trump, got elected again.
It really boggles the mind that a group could be lacking this much self awareness, this incompetent, and keep on stepping on rakes they way they do, all without suffering any consequences or moral reflection"
I think it's fair to say that the Dems had the worst of all possible worlds in 2016; a poor, or at least dreadfully advised, candidate and a poor campaign. They had a better campaign in 2020 but really should have had a younger candidate; surely somewhere there was a Governor or other prominent Dem who could have run?
Had Biden been Democratic nominee in 2016, as by rights historically he should have been as incumbent VP, he probably would have beaten Trump narrowly.
However the Democratic establishment insisted it had to be Hillary and she was the ideal candidate for Trump to beat and so Biden had to be called out of retirement to run in 2020 when he should have been running for his second term not his first, in which case win or lose he would not have been running last year when he was too old anyway
If Biden (or Hillary) had won in 2016, then Trump would have done the same thing he did in 2020. He would have claimed that the election was stolen.
Biden would have faced a hostile Senate and Congress, and would be unable to to anything. This would have caused increased disillusionment among Democrats. Meanwhile, Republicans would get angrier and angier after 12 years of rule by Democratic Presidents.
In 2020, Covid would happen, and Congressional Republicans would do their best to crash the economy so that Biden lost the upcoming election. Republicans would be even angrier if a Democratic President tried to impose Covid restrictions, and there would be mass civil unrest by Republicans protesting against these restrictions.
Trump would have kept his second candidacy viable by continuing to claim that the 2016 election had been rigged against him. In an atmosphere of intense Republican anger, he would have won the 2020 nomination and then because of the crashing Covid economy, he would have won the 2020 election in a landslide.
He would have been a lot better than Biden at claiming credit for the post-Covid recovery, and wouldn't have lost control of the border, and would have easily won re-election in 2024.
Had Trump lost in 2016 the GOP may well have picked Cruz or Rubio in 2020 instead
As long as Trump ran again, and he would have, he would have easily dispatched Cruz and Rubio, and anyone else who ran against him in the primaries.
He has immense charisma because of his TV career, he is amazingly good at communicating on social media, and most importantly he is able to effectively channel the visceral anger that the Republican base feels towards liberals and Democrats.
He would have spent the entire 4 years from 2016 to 2020 stoking the anger of the Republicans against all the things that Biden was doing, and all of Biden's communist Covid restrictions, and how the 2016 election was stolen. He would easily won the 2020 Republican nomination.
To that extent true, like Boris who was the most charismatic Conservative leader since Thatcher, Trump is the most charismatic Republican leader since Reagan.
However Trump cannot run again which does not bode well for the GOP given next in line are the likes of deathly dull Vance and given Tory electoral fortunes since they got rid of Boris
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
And yet the proportion of people who are agnostic and/or atheist keeps on growing.
It's a mystery.
Percentage wise the atheist and agnostic share of the global population is in decline, the Muslim percentage of the global population is growing and the Christian share staying about the same
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Though, I wonder why it's such a win - isn't the whole point of the new EU electronic border that most countries will be able to use it, just like most countries can use the UK one? Is this something which will happen anyway being sold as a negotiation victory?
I think I can hear the EBU breathing a sigh of relief from here. Whatever one’s views of the current situation, they would really not have enjoyed trying to navigate the hosting issues next year.
"Way back in 2016 when journalists/pundits/blue-checks (2016 version) were going crazy with "How did Trump possibly win" and offering up all sorts of crazy atavistic explanations, a few of us who had actually talked to voters before this, and so were not surprised, said, "Well, a whole lot of the country thinks the system is corrupt and you elites now screaming are who they think are the most corrupted," and they thought about that for a moment and said, "Naaaaaaah, American voters are dirty racist idiots and we don't need to change a bit,"
"And then they go and pull off the whole Biden isn't senile thing—which is more and more looking like they covered for a deeply detached and mentally incompetent president while a cadre of unelected bureaucrats could run stuff the way they wanted to run stuff and then they kept trying to do this telling whoever pointed it out that Biden sure looked out of it that no, don't believe your eyes, no you instead were lying misinformation spreaders who needed more education and were fascists as well, which because Biden was now so clearly a zombie that no amount of their usual big word lying could hide they got caught, and the result is the very person they hate the most, Trump, got elected again.
It really boggles the mind that a group could be lacking this much self awareness, this incompetent, and keep on stepping on rakes they way they do, all without suffering any consequences or moral reflection"
I think it's fair to say that the Dems had the worst of all possible worlds in 2016; a poor, or at least dreadfully advised, candidate and a poor campaign. They had a better campaign in 2020 but really should have had a younger candidate; surely somewhere there was a Governor or other prominent Dem who could have run?
Had Biden been Democratic nominee in 2016, as by rights historically he should have been as incumbent VP, he probably would have beaten Trump narrowly.
However the Democratic establishment insisted it had to be Hillary and she was the ideal candidate for Trump to beat and so Biden had to be called out of retirement to run in 2020 when he should have been running for his second term not his first, in which case win or lose he would not have been running last year when he was too old anyway
If Biden (or Hillary) had won in 2016, then Trump would have done the same thing he did in 2020. He would have claimed that the election was stolen.
Biden would have faced a hostile Senate and Congress, and would be unable to to anything. This would have caused increased disillusionment among Democrats. Meanwhile, Republicans would get angrier and angier after 12 years of rule by Democratic Presidents.
In 2020, Covid would happen, and Congressional Republicans would do their best to crash the economy so that Biden lost the upcoming election. Republicans would be even angrier if a Democratic President tried to impose Covid restrictions, and there would be mass civil unrest by Republicans protesting against these restrictions.
Trump would have kept his second candidacy viable by continuing to claim that the 2016 election had been rigged against him. In an atmosphere of intense Republican anger, he would have won the 2020 nomination and then because of the crashing Covid economy, he would have won the 2020 election in a landslide.
He would have been a lot better than Biden at claiming credit for the post-Covid recovery, and wouldn't have lost control of the border, and would have easily won re-election in 2024.
Had Trump lost in 2016 the GOP may well have picked Cruz or Rubio in 2020 instead
As long as Trump ran again, and he would have, he would have easily dispatched Cruz and Rubio, and anyone else who ran against him in the primaries.
He has immense charisma because of his TV career, he is amazingly good at communicating on social media, and most importantly he is able to effectively channel the visceral anger that the Republican base feels towards liberals and Democrats.
He would have spent the entire 4 years from 2016 to 2020 stoking the anger of the Republicans against all the things that Biden was doing, and all of Biden's communist Covid restrictions, and how the 2016 election was stolen. He would easily won the 2020 Republican nomination.
To that extent true, like Boris who was the most charismatic Conservative leader since Thatcher, Trump is the most charismatic Republican leader since Reagan.
However Trump cannot run again which does not bode well for the GOP given next in line are the likes of deathly dull Vance and given Tory electoral fortunes since they got rid of Boris
Yes, it's an unpopular opinion on this site, but I agree with you that Boris can defeat both Starmer and Farage, and the Conservatives should go on bended knee to him & make him leader.
Boris is able to very effectively project sunny optimism and make voters feel good about the future of the country. Starmer is hated because he makes voters feel miserable & hopeless about the future.
Given a choice between a PM who is making them miserable, an Opposition leader who is able to make them feel optimistic, and a 3rd Party leader who is untested & potentially risky, I think they will choose the Opposition leader Boris.
Get the feeling that Norton didn’t want Israel to win. Not sure what he was on about re going to Tel Aviv. Suffice to say, it wouldn’t have been in Israel.
Why not?
Don’t think there’s been any European or international football there since 7 October 2023. I expect the same would have applied here. I think it would have been offered to whoever came second.
I wonder which year was the last year that Eurovision didn't make a conscious effort to appear camp.
Yes. It’s the laboured contrived industrialised campness which makes Eurovision so disgusting and unwatchable. It’s not funny or transgressive any more - it’s a product being forced on you
Eurovision is to camp what McDonalds is to a really good burger. It’s about as transgressive as Disney - but far less skilful
It only appeals to morons who don’t get this, at this point
The only people I know interested in Eurovision are friends of mine who are gay and commenters on PB.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
You could have reasonably made pretty much every association and connection within that original post, without the full end-to-end wishing it.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
I can think of much more pressing risks to life and limb for anyone visiting Gaza.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
You could have reasonably made pretty much every association and connection within that original post, without the full end-to-end wishing it.
I didn't wish them to go there, just be faced with the choice and chicken out and stay in Israel which is safe and welcoming for gay people. I want these idiots to face up to their hypocrisy.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
I can think of much more pressing risks to life and limb for anyone visiting Gaza.
Indeed, I don't think it even possible to visit Gaza. Israel have it under complete blockade.
On the UK entry getting nul points from the public. The track entered the UK charts at number 95 and then dropped out of the Top 100 after one week. If we don't like a song why would we expect anyone else to like it?
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
And yet the proportion of people who are agnostic and/or atheist keeps on growing.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
The truth about Hamas discomforts the useful idiots who support them and go out and wave Palestine flags on the weekends. Hamas is a hateful terrorist organisation which executes gay people, Christians, Jews and other religious minorities. Forcing those non-Muslim Palestine flag wavers to choose between staying in safe Israel or crossing into Gaza to go and wave their flags there would have a very telling outcome.
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
And yet the proportion of people who are agnostic and/or atheist keeps on growing.
It's a mystery.
This literally isn’t true. It is a falsehood
UK 2011 = 25.2% irreligious UK 2021 = 37.2% irreligious
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
I can think of much more pressing risks to life and limb for anyone visiting Gaza.
Indeed, I don't think it even possible to visit Gaza. Israel have it under complete blockade.
I’m sure as long as they avoided hospitals, schools & food kitchens and didn’t wear flak vests marked ‘Press’ they’d be fine.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
You could have reasonably made pretty much every association and connection within that original post, without the full end-to-end wishing it.
I didn't wish them to go there, just be faced with the choice and chicken out and stay in Israel which is safe and welcoming for gay people. I want these idiots to face up to their hypocrisy.
OK, my original post seems to have 'like' farmed, but I accept on further reading of your post that you didn't actually wish that fate on the 'Gays for Gaza'. It was very strongly put, but not quite the beyond the pale comment I initially read it as.
(EDIT: the 'and see if they' clause is central to this re-reading)
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
I can think of much more pressing risks to life and limb for anyone visiting Gaza.
Indeed, I don't think it even possible to visit Gaza. Israel have it under complete blockade.
I’m sure as long as they avoided hospitals, schools & food kitchens and didn’t wear flak vests marked ‘Press’ they’d be fine.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
I can think of much more pressing risks to life and limb for anyone visiting Gaza.
Indeed, I don't think it even possible to visit Gaza. Israel have it under complete blockade.
I’m sure as long as they avoided hospitals, schools & food kitchens and didn’t wear flak vests marked ‘Press’ they’d be fine.
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
And yet the proportion of people who are agnostic and/or atheist keeps on growing.
It's a mystery.
This literally isn’t true. It is a falsehood
UK 2011 = 25.2% irreligious UK 2021 = 37.2% irreligious
UK population is declining as a share of the global population too as is the Western population generally, African population is growing as a percentage of the global population
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
Bit too much that Max
It's the truth, though. What do you think would happen if the people carrying those gays for Gaza signs actually went to the Gaza strip? That they'd have a party thrown for them and everyone would praise them? No. They'd get pushed off buildings and strung up by the local population. How do we know that? Because it's well documented that's what happens to gay people there, Hamas and the other militant groups they're protesting for would kill them all without second thought. The true definition of useful idiot.
You could have reasonably made pretty much every association and connection within that original post, without the full end-to-end wishing it.
I didn't wish them to go there, just be faced with the choice and chicken out and stay in Israel which is safe and welcoming for gay people. I want these idiots to face up to their hypocrisy.
OK, my original post seems to have 'like' farmed, but I accept on further reading of your post that you didn't actually wish that fate on the 'Gays for Gaza'. It was very strongly put, but not quite the beyond the pale comment I initially read it as.
I absolutely wouldn't want to send any gay or non-Muslim person to Gaza, it would be a death sentence with or without the Israeli war. I would want the Palestine flag wavers to be faced with this choice though and be forced to recognise that fact and that whatever Israel's faults there is no danger to gay people or non-Jewish religious minorities in Israel. I suspect 99% of them would stay in safe Tel Aviv, have a party with the great and friendly people of Israel and then come back and start waving the Palestine flags again, ignoring the reality of what Hamas represents.
I'm sorry but that is easily the worst eurovision winning song of my lifetime.
FFS.
The standard was awful apart from a couple of songs notably Austria which I really liked .
Eh? Austria won. And it is the worst winning song of all time.
I cannot believe how this song won.
There's two things at play IMO, juries are voting for the song that best represents the gay/transgender agenda and the public are voting for Israel because by and large European people support Israel not terrorists. Next year the votes for Israel among the juries will be much lower to balance this out and I expect the jury votes will be even higher for whatever bloke in a dress turns up.
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
The truth about Hamas discomforts the useful idiots who support them and go out and wave Palestine flags on the weekends. Hamas is a hateful terrorist organisation which executes gay people, Christians, Jews and other religious minorities. Forcing those non-Muslim Palestine flag wavers to choose between staying in safe Israel or crossing into Gaza to go and wave their flags there would have a very telling outcome.
Anyway, it hasn't happened so we'll never know.
You appear not to understand that Hamas are a subset of Palestinians and Israelis a subset of the global Jewish population.
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
And yet the proportion of people who are agnostic and/or atheist keeps on growing.
It's a mystery.
This literally isn’t true. It is a falsehood
UK 2011 = 25.2% irreligious UK 2021 = 37.2% irreligious
UK population is declining as a share of the global population too as is the Western population generally, African population is growing as a percentage of the global population
I'm sorry but that is easily the worst eurovision winning song of my lifetime.
FFS.
The standard was awful apart from a couple of songs notably Austria which I really liked .
Eh? Austria won. And it is the worst winning song of all time.
I cannot believe how this song won.
There's two things at play IMO, juries are voting for the song that best represents the gay/transgender agenda and the public are voting for Israel because by and large European people support Israel not terrorists. Next year the votes for Israel among the juries will be much lower to balance this out and I expect the jury votes will be even higher for whatever bloke in a dress turns up.
Did you even watch the show or be like my mate who dropped 20 votes for Israel without even listening to it?
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
And yet the proportion of people who are agnostic and/or atheist keeps on growing.
It's a mystery.
This literally isn’t true. It is a falsehood
UK 2011 = 25.2% irreligious UK 2021 = 37.2% irreligious
The census religion question urgently needs to be updated to allow people to state an identity as, for example, culturally Christian/Jewish/Hindu, etc, but non-practising. At the moment you have to choose between being religious and non-religious, which isn't an accurate reflection of where most people are. Most people are probably in that grey-zone. (I think I was asking for this about 15 years ago).
A Tel Aviv final would have been peak drama tbh, would have loved to send those gays for Gaza types go to Israel and then see if they venture into Gaza for day trips and never come back after being pushed off buildings or strung up on lampposts or if they're really just virtue signalling about it all because it's trendy to hate Jews right now.
The truth about Hamas discomforts the useful idiots who support them and go out and wave Palestine flags on the weekends. Hamas is a hateful terrorist organisation which executes gay people, Christians, Jews and other religious minorities. Forcing those non-Muslim Palestine flag wavers to choose between staying in safe Israel or crossing into Gaza to go and wave their flags there would have a very telling outcome.
Anyway, it hasn't happened so we'll never know.
You appear not to understand that Hamas are a subset of Palestinians and Israelis a subset of the global Jewish population.
Anyone feeling deeply nostalgic for the time when they used to read out each individual voting score for each country from each country?
Yes, absolutely. Much better theatre and harder to rig.
It was a bit long-winded, it has to be said. Sometimes it seemed to go for longer than the actual song performances.
I think the main problem was that it could be decided long before the votes finished, so the last few were pointless.
Whereas this way the winner is only certain when the second to last vote is announced.
Still, it is too easy to rig, particularly if there are lots of people that fail the Cricket Test...
An example of that was in Semi Final 1, San Marino had Italy give them 12 points, Cyprus couldn't get any points from Greece as they were in the other semi and San Marino got 10th place by just 2 points. The EBU should really allow all countries to vote in both semi-finals.
I'm so clever that only I understand how clever I am
Inter alia, this explains the last twenty years of conversation on PB
I'm not even joking. I asked the cleverest person I know (me) how clever I am, and that person confirmed it
I can speak the following languages.
English, Latin, Greek, German, French, Urdu, Punjabi, and American.
That is the sign of true intelligence.
And yet, you live in..... Sheffield
Yeah, I could be one of those sad Londoners who live in a million pound shoe box or I can live in a very nice house.
Tough choice.
There are many markers of high intelligence. "Living in Sheffield" is, I fear, not one of them
There is a story of Queen Victoria on the royal train heading north to Balmoral. Apparently she loved all the varying views. However as the train pulled into Sheffield she would ask her equerry to close the curtains, and not open them until the regal train had entirely exited Sheffield
It depends where you live. Dore & Totley is staggeringly opulent.
Yes on Dore & Totley; it's where the nobs and the Cleggs live.
I don't want to be too rude about that house, but it's cookie cutters 2010s footballer in a leafy bit of Cheshire with Peak District wallpaper - no character.
Leon's just wibbling from his own lack of experience !
I've been to Sheffield several times. It's a shithole. Most northern English post industrial citiies are, I am afraid. Grotty, ugly, declining (again), riven with new racial divides, vape shops, despair. Indeed the decline and grot is spreading south (and the south has shit-holes of its own). And the weather sucks
I really really really wish this wasn't true, but it is. Hopefully down the line a new government can at least improve the economic sitch, and the architectural nightmare, even if they can't improve the weather
@Cookie gives us hopeful posts from Manc, so we shall see
There are a few acceptable places to live in the UK. Central and central ish London. The nicer suburbs of London. Posh cathedral cities (but not all of them). Cornwall and Devon in general, the nicest parts of the Home Counties and Welsh Marches, wilder bits of Scotland if you can cope with the winters and the midges. Er, Southwold?
I hesitate to say you need to get out more, but perhaps get out different. You have missed out the whole of: Lincolnshire (have you never been to Stamford?), Cumberland and Westmorland, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Norfolk and almost all of Suffolk, Sussex, Northumberland, the entire of the Scottish side of the borders, Wiltshire and Doset, Northamptonshire. And Yorkshire.
Apart from that you are on the right lines.
I did say I was being provocative
However, you also forget I have travelled the entire world, pretty much. So I can compare multiple places in a way 99% of PBers cannot. Half of you barely go over the Channel
Britain, as a place to live, is falling behind quite badly, in terms of quality of life, beauty of surroundings, urban architecture
I'm a patriot. I wish this wasn't true. But it is
The UK has always been a crap place to live if you like nice weather. However we made up for that with quite handsome cities, free speech, a high trust society, social homogeneity, low crime, political stability, notably high incomes, lush green countryside, and clean bracing coastlines etc
One by one we have lost and are losing all of these, which makes the UK, steadily, much less attractive
I've noticed the scuzziness of my town worsening over the last 5-10 years.
Lots of Turkish/Albanian barbers all over the place, lots of carers from overseas (usually sub-saharan Africa), some people with serious addiction and mental problems walking round, and a noticeable number of hijabs, which were once non-existent. And, in general, young men (in particular) in their twenties being noticeably fatter with bad beards and really shit tattoos.
This is a market town in rural Hampshire.
Liberal society chose abortion over adoption. The 12m immigrants since 1997 more than replacing the 10.7m aborted since 1967.
Birth rates have collapsed even in countries where abortion is illegal. I guess you could make contraception illegal, or perhaps make it so a woman is not allowed to resist a man, but I'm not 100% sure those policies would be popular.
Wages went down and rents went up. Hungary is giving a lifetime 25% tax cut to women who have children. Abortions are down 50% and divorce rates are lower. Liberal societies are declining while conservative societies prosper.
Hungary spends 5% of GDP on measures to try and get its birthrate up.
Its TFR is ... 1.52
It's an utter failure.
2010 to 2023 abortion in Hungary fell from 40,449 to 21,136. Source abort-report.eu via grok.
Non-sequitar of the day.
I had to look that up not having a degree in philosophy! Abortion is lower in Hungary when adjusted by population size compared with the U.K.
1. You claim that liberal democracies have had to import people (immigrants) because of liberal abortion laws. 2. I point out that fertility rates have collapsed everywhere, irrespective of the legal status of abortion. 3. You point out that Hungary has enacted pro-natal policies. 4. I point out that Hungary's fertility rate - despite extremely expensive pro-natal policies - is still shit. 5. You point out that Hungary's abortion rate is relatively low. 6. I point out that that is a non-sequitar.
I don't think this is too complicated. But then again, I do have a philosophy degree.
Fertility rates haven't collapsed in Africa and abortion is mostly illegal there
Fertility rates have collapsed in Africa. In fact the biggest declines in fertility in the last 20 years are all in Africa.
I will admit, that fertility rates are higher in Africa than elsewhere, but that is because they started at a higher level.
Also: if you think fertility rates are higher in Africa because of a lack of access to abortion, then I have a bridge to sell you.
One of the lowest fertility rates in Africa is South Africa which is one of the few African nations where abortion is fully legal.
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
And yet the proportion of people who are agnostic and/or atheist keeps on growing.
It's a mystery.
This literally isn’t true. It is a falsehood
UK 2011 = 25.2% irreligious UK 2021 = 37.2% irreligious
Two issues there.
1) The UK isn't the world 2) There's been a steep decline in the numbers of the nominally religious, but not nearly as steep a decline (indeed possibly a growth) in the numbers who are seriously religious.
The second effect is very noticeable in the Church of England. Overall attendance is dropping like a stone, and has been for donkeys years. The only parts of the CofE which aren't in free fall are the conservative evangelicals, and to a certain extent the more conservative anglo-catholics.
In my local context, my conservative evangelical church (currently on its way out of the Church of England over a mixture of women bishops and gay marriage) has grown fairly consistently over the last 20 years, meanwhile the local liberal parish churches (we're an oddity outside the parish system) have been combined and reorganised umpteen times covering a larger and larger area to get round the fact that there are increasingly few worshippers and even fewer clergy.
To understand Reform's appeal, I think it's important to focus less on the immigration and more on their very effective messaging on economics & pocketbook issues:
Asked for one of the party’s flagship stances ahead of the vote in May of next year, Mr Tice pointed to support for oil and gas.
“Drill Scotland, drill,” he said.
“Let’s use the oil and gas treasure, let’s issue more licences, let’s encourage investment offshore and onshore. Because we’ve got all this energy treasure, we should use it, it’s ours and that’s the way to create highly skilled, highly paid jobs.”
Asked about the reserve nature of what he said was one of his party’s key policies, Mr Tice said: “People know that if we do well in Scotland, it will terrify Labour, it’ll terrify the SNP, it’ll terrify the eco-zealots. Then when we win, the people of Scotland have the opportunity to send a message to Westminster – we want oil, we want gas, we want more money in our pockets.”
Comments
I have always admired Nat Hentoff for his consistency; he opposed abortion, and the death penalty, for, as he saw it, the same reason. It is odd that so many on the left favor the first, and oppose the second.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Hentoff
(For the record: I think the death penalty appropriate in some instances -- and that it is impossible to ban abortions entirely, without limiting our freedoms, drastically.)
Superb
Austria
Switzerland
France
Fertility rates in Africa are also generally higher than the rest of the world because Africa is the most religious continent in the world now and the more religious you are generally the more children you have.
Hence globally Muslims have the most children, then evangelical Christians, then Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then Eastern Orthodox, then Hindus, then mainline Protestants and mainline Jews, then Buddhists and last atheists and agnostics
It's a mystery.
He has immense charisma because of his TV career, he is amazingly good at communicating on social media, and most importantly he is able to effectively channel the visceral anger that the Republican base feels towards liberals and Democrats.
He would have spent the entire 4 years from 2016 to 2020 stoking the anger of the Republicans against all the things that Biden was doing, and all of Biden's communist Covid restrictions, and how the 2016 election was stolen. He would easily won the 2020 Republican nomination.
However Trump cannot run again which does not bode well for the GOP given next in line are the likes of deathly dull Vance and given Tory electoral fortunes since they got rid of Boris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD0hy2dR35w
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/#:~:text=In 2010, censuses and surveys,identify with any particular religion.&text=By 2050, the unaffiliated population is expected to exceed 1.2 billion.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/17/uk-on-verge-of-deal-with-eu-to-let-britons-use-european-passport-e-gates
Though, I wonder why it's such a win - isn't the whole point of the new EU electronic border that most countries will be able to use it, just like most countries can use the UK one? Is this something which will happen anyway being sold as a negotiation victory?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/david-lammy-and-the-trouble-with-foreign-taxis/
Boris is able to very effectively project sunny optimism and make voters feel good about the future of the country. Starmer is hated because he makes voters feel miserable & hopeless about the future.
Given a choice between a PM who is making them miserable, an Opposition leader who is able to make them feel optimistic, and a 3rd Party leader who is untested & potentially risky, I think they will choose the Opposition leader Boris.
They want to be hosting.
Israel = 357 points
Anyway, it hasn't happened so we'll never know.
UK 2021 = 37.2% irreligious
(EDIT: the 'and see if they' clause is central to this re-reading)
FFS.
I cannot believe how this song won.
NZ 2023 = 51.6% irreligious
Aus 2006 = 18.7% irreligious
Aus 2021 = 38.9% irreligious
Can 2011 = 23.9% irreligious
Can 2021 = 34.6% irreligious
Ire 2011 = 6% irreligious
Ire 2022 = 14% irreligious
IT'S NOT A FUCKING POP SONG.
Whereas this way the winner is only certain when the second to last vote is announced.
Still, it is too easy to rig, particularly if there are lots of people that fail the Cricket Test (or equivalent) in various countries...
I assume it's to do with embryos.
It deserved to do better.
1) The UK isn't the world
2) There's been a steep decline in the numbers of the nominally religious, but not nearly as steep a decline (indeed possibly a growth) in the numbers who are seriously religious.
The second effect is very noticeable in the Church of England. Overall attendance is dropping like a stone, and has been for donkeys years. The only parts of the CofE which aren't in free fall are the conservative evangelicals, and to a certain extent the more conservative anglo-catholics.
In my local context, my conservative evangelical church (currently on its way out of the Church of England over a mixture of women bishops and gay marriage) has grown fairly consistently over the last 20 years, meanwhile the local liberal parish churches (we're an oddity outside the parish system) have been combined and reorganised umpteen times covering a larger and larger area to get round the fact that there are increasingly few worshippers and even fewer clergy.
Asked for one of the party’s flagship stances ahead of the vote in May of next year, Mr Tice pointed to support for oil and gas.
“Drill Scotland, drill,” he said.
“Let’s use the oil and gas treasure, let’s issue more licences, let’s encourage investment offshore and onshore. Because we’ve got all this energy treasure, we should use it, it’s ours and that’s the way to create highly skilled, highly paid jobs.”
Asked about the reserve nature of what he said was one of his party’s key policies, Mr Tice said: “People know that if we do well in Scotland, it will terrify Labour, it’ll terrify the SNP, it’ll terrify the eco-zealots. Then when we win, the people of Scotland have the opportunity to send a message to Westminster – we want oil, we want gas, we want more money in our pockets.”
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