Doing unto Others – politicalbetting.com

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

bondegezou said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

.

Taz said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1923368933391823138

Has anyone noticed that, since I said "I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT," she's no longer "HOT?"

I'm by no means a Swifty, but I wouldn't climb over her to get to The Donald.

Isn’t she also known as Tay Tay ? Or is that someone else ?

Dunno, I'm not a teenage girl, so I know of her, but that's about it. She's hotter than Donald, though.

Her fan base has grown up: they're far from being teenage girls now.

She is the biggest musical artist in the world and has just completed the most successful tour in history: 149 shows, 10 million concert goers, and over $2bn in box office revenue. She's a skilled and prolific songwriter - in my view the heir to Dylan in that regard. People who dismiss her as someone who appeals only to teenage girls are missing out on a truly formidable artist at the peak of her powers. Trump is weirdly obsessed with her, but I have no doubt that Swift will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten.

I liked TayTay before it was fashionable. And I really did, I've liked her since "Red" at least (2012). My wife used to laugh at me for putting on her music when I cooked. She writes really classy countrypop songs, and they are often decidedly and unashamedly sexy. She's great

However, the idea that "she will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten" is 100% delusional. I am afraid it will take us all many decades to forget Donald J Trump

How many 19th century US presidents are still talked about? Lincoln, basically. In 100-200 years Trump will be an embarrassing footnote or a difficult pup quiz question. Great art endures, though.

Trump's coinages will outlast Swift's hooks.

bondegezou said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

bondegezou said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

.

Taz said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1923368933391823138

Has anyone noticed that, since I said "I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT," she's no longer "HOT?"

I'm by no means a Swifty, but I wouldn't climb over her to get to The Donald.

Isn’t she also known as Tay Tay ? Or is that someone else ?

Dunno, I'm not a teenage girl, so I know of her, but that's about it. She's hotter than Donald, though.

Her fan base has grown up: they're far from being teenage girls now.

She is the biggest musical artist in the world and has just completed the most successful tour in history: 149 shows, 10 million concert goers, and over $2bn in box office revenue. She's a skilled and prolific songwriter - in my view the heir to Dylan in that regard. People who dismiss her as someone who appeals only to teenage girls are missing out on a truly formidable artist at the peak of her powers. Trump is weirdly obsessed with her, but I have no doubt that Swift will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten.

I liked TayTay before it was fashionable. And I really did, I've liked her since "Red" at least (2012). My wife used to laugh at me for putting on her music when I cooked. She writes really classy countrypop songs, and they are often decidedly and unashamedly sexy. She's great

However, the idea that "she will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten" is 100% delusional. I am afraid it will take us all many decades to forget Donald J Trump

How many 19th century US presidents are still talked about? Lincoln, basically. In 100-200 years Trump will be an embarrassing footnote or a difficult pup quiz question. Great art endures, though.

How many 19th century musicians are still talked about? Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Mussorgsky, Fauré, Berlioz and many others. Musicians do seem to garner more longevity in the public eye!

Is Taylor Swift as good as Liszt? Yes.

Or even Gilbert & Sullivan...

bondegezou said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

bondegezou said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

.

Taz said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1923368933391823138

Has anyone noticed that, since I said "I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT," she's no longer "HOT?"

I'm by no means a Swifty, but I wouldn't climb over her to get to The Donald.

Isn’t she also known as Tay Tay ? Or is that someone else ?

Dunno, I'm not a teenage girl, so I know of her, but that's about it. She's hotter than Donald, though.

Her fan base has grown up: they're far from being teenage girls now.

She is the biggest musical artist in the world and has just completed the most successful tour in history: 149 shows, 10 million concert goers, and over $2bn in box office revenue. She's a skilled and prolific songwriter - in my view the heir to Dylan in that regard. People who dismiss her as someone who appeals only to teenage girls are missing out on a truly formidable artist at the peak of her powers. Trump is weirdly obsessed with her, but I have no doubt that Swift will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten.

I liked TayTay before it was fashionable. And I really did, I've liked her since "Red" at least (2012). My wife used to laugh at me for putting on her music when I cooked. She writes really classy countrypop songs, and they are often decidedly and unashamedly sexy. She's great

However, the idea that "she will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten" is 100% delusional. I am afraid it will take us all many decades to forget Donald J Trump

How many 19th century US presidents are still talked about? Lincoln, basically. In 100-200 years Trump will be an embarrassing footnote or a difficult pup quiz question. Great art endures, though.

How many 19th century musicians are still talked about? Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Mussorgsky, Fauré, Berlioz and many others. Musicians do seem to garner more longevity in the public eye!

Is Taylor Swift as good as Liszt? Yes.

I played the same game with ninteenth century US novels - Uncle Tom's Cabin, Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, Little Women..... I can tell you more about them than I can about a similar number of ninteenth century US presidents.

bondegezou said:

Nigelb said:

Here's one for all those of you getting excited about sub judice* the other day.

Watters: “Do you believe Comey should be in jail?”

Gabbard: “I do… I’m very concerned for the president’s life…And James Comey, in my view, should be held accountable and put behind bars for this.”
https://x.com/BulwarkOnline/status/1923180901875200186


*Autocorrect prefers "sub juice".

Matt Gaetz, lol... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/james-comey-86-gaetz-maga-b2752452.html

I need help.

Can someone explain to be why 86 means "assassinate" when applied to Mr Chump, but meant "impeach" when applied to Mr Biden by MAGA loofs?

For good or ill, Trump is extremely likely to be one of THE most memorable presidents of the 21st century. He's already the most memorable of the first quarter century - even Obama looks more forgettable next to him (this is not to flatter Trump, it is just the case)

The idea that he will be dwarfed in the annals by an excellent, sexy countrypop musician who cleverly made tons of money is simply ridiculous

Trump is iconic. Whether you hate him or love him, he is iconic. The hair, the brand, the name, the vulgarity, the clothes, the burgers, the bling, the daughters, the attempted coup, the sassytempts, the bleeding ear, the DOGE, the Musk, Melania, the everything, the bizarre orange face - no one writing on this forum will forget him to their dying day, much as most would like to

He will haunt us

...

Nigelb said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

bondegezou said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

.

Taz said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1923368933391823138

Has anyone noticed that, since I said "I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT," she's no longer "HOT?"

I'm by no means a Swifty, but I wouldn't climb over her to get to The Donald.

Isn’t she also known as Tay Tay ? Or is that someone else ?

Dunno, I'm not a teenage girl, so I know of her, but that's about it. She's hotter than Donald, though.

Her fan base has grown up: they're far from being teenage girls now.

She is the biggest musical artist in the world and has just completed the most successful tour in history: 149 shows, 10 million concert goers, and over $2bn in box office revenue. She's a skilled and prolific songwriter - in my view the heir to Dylan in that regard. People who dismiss her as someone who appeals only to teenage girls are missing out on a truly formidable artist at the peak of her powers. Trump is weirdly obsessed with her, but I have no doubt that Swift will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten.

I liked TayTay before it was fashionable. And I really did, I've liked her since "Red" at least (2012). My wife used to laugh at me for putting on her music when I cooked. She writes really classy countrypop songs, and they are often decidedly and unashamedly sexy. She's great

However, the idea that "she will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten" is 100% delusional. I am afraid it will take us all many decades to forget Donald J Trump

Indeed. We are still talking about Stalin eighty years on from WWII.

Assuming there is an election in 2028, and MAGA gets booted out on its arse, I will be quite happy to forget Trump forever, as soon as he departs the White House.

No doubt he'd leave a mess to clear up, but the toxic legacy wouldn't be anything approaching within a couple of magnitudes to Stalin's.

Assuming.

I'm loving your optimism. Bless.

On the other hand Matt Gaetz is demanding facilitator of 45, Jim Comey is locked up for arranging sea shells (to represent "getting rid of 47").

MattW said:

bondegezou said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

bondegezou said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

.

Taz said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1923368933391823138

Has anyone noticed that, since I said "I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT," she's no longer "HOT?"

I'm by no means a Swifty, but I wouldn't climb over her to get to The Donald.

Isn’t she also known as Tay Tay ? Or is that someone else ?

Dunno, I'm not a teenage girl, so I know of her, but that's about it. She's hotter than Donald, though.

Her fan base has grown up: they're far from being teenage girls now.

She is the biggest musical artist in the world and has just completed the most successful tour in history: 149 shows, 10 million concert goers, and over $2bn in box office revenue. She's a skilled and prolific songwriter - in my view the heir to Dylan in that regard. People who dismiss her as someone who appeals only to teenage girls are missing out on a truly formidable artist at the peak of her powers. Trump is weirdly obsessed with her, but I have no doubt that Swift will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten.

I liked TayTay before it was fashionable. And I really did, I've liked her since "Red" at least (2012). My wife used to laugh at me for putting on her music when I cooked. She writes really classy countrypop songs, and they are often decidedly and unashamedly sexy. She's great

However, the idea that "she will be talked about long after Trump is forgotten" is 100% delusional. I am afraid it will take us all many decades to forget Donald J Trump

How many 19th century US presidents are still talked about? Lincoln, basically. In 100-200 years Trump will be an embarrassing footnote or a difficult pup quiz question. Great art endures, though.

How many 19th century musicians are still talked about? Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Mussorgsky, Fauré, Berlioz and many others. Musicians do seem to garner more longevity in the public eye!

Is Taylor Swift as good as Liszt? Yes.

She is rumoured also to have very large hands.

As did Liszt, apparently.
Chopin's were quite small, but reportedly he used what he had to remarkable advantage...

Malmesbury said:

Omnium said:

Nigelb said:

Omnium said:

Nigelb said:

Completely OT, this is quite an interesting article on the Chinese J-10C fighter.
It's possible that the recent India/Pakistan clash will provide vital intelligence for (amongst other things) the future defence of Taiwan, the ignorance about Chinese air to air missiles is likely to be dispelled - with at least one recovered virtually intact by India.

https://www.twz.com/air/chinas-j-10c-fighter-separating-myth-from-reality
...Another aspect that could have played into the potential success of the J-10C is the fact that India likely has a much better understanding of how AMRAAM works and is therefore better able to optimize countermeasures for it, compared with the PL-15, and particularly the PL-15E export model.

Bronk continues: “The ability of the Rafale’s onboard electronic countermeasures system and radar warning receiver to potentially detect an incoming missile seeker and/or respond to try and improve the effectiveness of missile defeat maneuvers through ECM is potentially lower against the PL-15 than against AMRAAM, just by dint of the fact that there may be less known about it.”..

There's always an arms race, but the arrival of drones on the battlefield (and things like the above) have livened things up.

The West can no longer afford to have a 25 year (or whatever it is) development cycle. We can't afford to be able to make only 12-14 fighters a year either (BAE said such a thing recently, although they're upping that).

Here's one way.
Stealth; its next iteration, supersonic; powered with a Ukrainian engine.
Launchable off our little carriers.

Already starting production.

https://x.com/Selcuk/status/1923091453821014476
Bayraktar #KIZILELMA PT-4 ✈️🚀🍎

🛫 AB Kalkışlı Aerodinamik Sistem Tanımlama Testi
🛫 AB-Assisted Takeoff Aerodynamics System Identification Test

The painting of battleships in odd ways made a huge difference.

Of course the needed lesson there was that they were obsolete if you needed to paint them oddly and keep them in obscure fjords.

Battleships died because they could put (on average) about 2% of shells fired on an opponent. At a range of 10 miles.

Aircraft carriers could get a far higher percentage of hits at 250 miles. From the top. Where battleship armour was thin. Or below the waterline where there was none.

An attempt to design a battleship with 12” deck armour was abandoned when it became clear that it would only float upside down.

So apart from the guns and armour being useless….

We all agree they became obsolete. However they were rarely (actually never?) able to show what they could do.

Probably for the best.

TimS said:

Arrived in Newport, prosperous transport hub of the Welsh economic dragon (source: PB)

Are you in a parallel universe?

Leon said:

For good or ill, Trump is extremely likely to be one of THE most memorable presidents of the 21st century. He's already the most memorable of the first quarter century - even Obama looks more forgettable next to him (this is not to flatter Trump, it is just the case)

The idea that he will be dwarfed in the annals by an excellent, sexy countrypop musician who cleverly made tons of money is simply ridiculous

Trump is iconic. Whether you hate him or love him, he is iconic. The hair, the brand, the name, the vulgarity, the clothes, the burgers, the bling, the daughters, the attempted coup, the sassytempts, the bleeding ear, the DOGE, the Musk, Melania, the everything, the bizarre orange face - no one writing on this forum will forget him to their dying day, much as most would like to

He will haunt us

No, I'm quite good at forgetting stuff.
If he is succeeded by a Democrat - which would mean he leaves no organised legacy - then I'll be quite happy to do so.
There's always new stuff to be concerned about.

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Is it better to be forgotten, or to be remembered with hatred?

I almost wish I still got to do university interviews, because that feels like a good question to throw at a bright late teenager.

I also suspect that people's answers to their preference would reveal quite a lot about something.

(ETA: One of the tricks to remembering stuff is to enjoy the process of remembering. Hence all the gamified learning apps. Even if people remember Trump, I'm not sure many will enjoy that remembering.)

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Nigelb said:

Here's one for all those of you getting excited about sub judice* the other day.

Watters: “Do you believe Comey should be in jail?”

Gabbard: “I do… I’m very concerned for the president’s life…And James Comey, in my view, should be held accountable and put behind bars for this.”
https://x.com/BulwarkOnline/status/1923180901875200186


*Autocorrect prefers "sub juice".

Matt Gaetz, lol... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/james-comey-86-gaetz-maga-b2752452.html

Jack P, LOLer
https://x.com/JimLaPorta/status/1923367572239503458

Comey said he was knowingly making a political statement, but won’t say what it was. Do you see Comey as a lone wolf, or part of interconnected network of many with the means and access to the necessary knowledge to ensure the assassination? Are you ruling out the message was given to many out there, that the plan to remove Trump through assassination is now all systems go?

It’s almost a counter executive order on grounds US security is under threat from the Trump government. There was always going to be a moment when seeing a pro Moscow cartel dismantling US means to defend itself, the security establishment would make a move.

Such a thing as might be about to happen in USA would also certainly happen in every other country on earth, including UK, wouldn’t it?

Mexicanpete said:

TimS said:

Arrived in Newport, prosperous transport hub of the Welsh economic dragon (source: PB)

Are you in a parallel universe?

I’m in the throbbing heart of the Western economic miracle. Directly opposite me is the vast modernist tower that forms the global headquarters of Admiral Insurance. A name more noteworthy than Donald Trump and Taylor Swift put together. An organisation that I have, I’m afraid, cost rather a lot of money in the last 2 years thanks to a theft and a prang.

I’m about to be whisked by car to Monmouth, which is to Newport what say Greenwich Connecticut is to Manhattan. Before heading tomorrow to the bustling conurbation of Hereford for a reunion at the cathedral school.

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Unless he creates an enduring legacy he will slowly recede into history, as all politicians do, as indeed we all do. Lincoln is remembered for ending slavery. Washington is remembered for creating the US Republic. Churchill is remembered for 1940. Nobody reembers Taft, or Buchannan, or Cleveland. But people who create great art create a legacy than ensures we remember them. We listen to musicians' works centuries after they die, and we connect with their thoughts and their genius. This isn't TDS, this is simply reality.

People may remember Taylor for being hated by Trump.

Various artists became famous for being disliked by Stalin.

Leon said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

For good or ill, Trump is extremely likely to be one of THE most memorable presidents of the 21st century. He's already the most memorable of the first quarter century - even Obama looks more forgettable next to him (this is not to flatter Trump, it is just the case)

The idea that he will be dwarfed in the annals by an excellent, sexy countrypop musician who cleverly made tons of money is simply ridiculous

Trump is iconic. Whether you hate him or love him, he is iconic. The hair, the brand, the name, the vulgarity, the clothes, the burgers, the bling, the daughters, the attempted coup, the sassytempts, the bleeding ear, the DOGE, the Musk, Melania, the everything, the bizarre orange face - no one writing on this forum will forget him to their dying day, much as most would like to

He will haunt us

No, I'm quite good at forgetting stuff.
If he is succeeded by a Democrat - which would mean he leaves no organised legacy - then I'll be quite happy to do so.
There's always new stuff to be concerned about.

No, it's ridic

You won't forget him

You are literally claiming that if Pete Buttigieg takes over in 2028 and someone in 2029 asks you "do you remember Donald Trump" you will say "who?"

I mean, get a grip. lol. That's not gonna happen

For very good evolutionary reasons, humans are predisposed to remember bad and scary things, as that helps them avoid or divert such things in the future. You will remember Donald Trump until you die

I predict now that is someone like Buttigieg wins, then most Republicans will be doing their level best to deep six his memory. And their support for him.

And you're contradicting yourself. You've remarked before how quickly we forget natural disasters like the Spanish Flu.
A Trump whose chosen successor is defeated would be pretty much like that natural disaster.

Obviously the way you just put it is silly, but I can well hear myself saying "wow, haven't thought about him for a while".

Edinburgh is full of heavily pregnant women reclining in the sun. I wonder if it's linked to the enormous number of insects we've had over the past few weeks.

Eabhal said:

Edinburgh is full of heavily pregnant women reclining in the sun. I wonder if it's linked to the enormous number of insects we've had over the past few weeks.

That’s a little kafkaesque

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

For good or ill, Trump is extremely likely to be one of THE most memorable presidents of the 21st century. He's already the most memorable of the first quarter century - even Obama looks more forgettable next to him (this is not to flatter Trump, it is just the case)

The idea that he will be dwarfed in the annals by an excellent, sexy countrypop musician who cleverly made tons of money is simply ridiculous

Trump is iconic. Whether you hate him or love him, he is iconic. The hair, the brand, the name, the vulgarity, the clothes, the burgers, the bling, the daughters, the attempted coup, the sassytempts, the bleeding ear, the DOGE, the Musk, Melania, the everything, the bizarre orange face - no one writing on this forum will forget him to their dying day, much as most would like to

He will haunt us

No, I'm quite good at forgetting stuff.
If he is succeeded by a Democrat - which would mean he leaves no organised legacy - then I'll be quite happy to do so.
There's always new stuff to be concerned about.

No, it's ridic

You won't forget him

You are literally claiming that if Pete Buttigieg takes over in 2028 and someone in 2029 asks you "do you remember Donald Trump" you will say "who?"

I mean, get a grip. lol. That's not gonna happen

For very good evolutionary reasons, humans are predisposed to remember bad and scary things, as that helps them avoid or divert such things in the future. You will remember Donald Trump until you die

I predict now that is someone like Buttigieg wins, then most Republicans will be doing their level best to deep six his memory. And their support for him.

And you're contradicting yourself. You've remarked before how quickly we forget natural disasters like the Spanish Flu.
A Trump whose chosen successor is defeated would be pretty much like that natural disaster.

Obviously the way you just put it is silly, but I can well hear myself saying "wow, haven't thought about him for a while".

lol

So you will remember him, then

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

You're obviously wrong.

Trump is far more than the average politician, in really bad ways. Swift is far more than the average artist, in really good ways.

Great art endures for centuries. Politicians don't.

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Unless he creates an enduring legacy he will slowly recede into history, as all politicians do, as indeed we all do. Lincoln is remembered for ending slavery. Washington is remembered for creating the US Republic. Churchill is remembered for 1940. Nobody reembers Taft, or Buchannan, or Cleveland. But people who create great art create a legacy than ensures we remember them. We listen to musicians' works centuries after they die, and we connect with their thoughts and their genius. This isn't TDS, this is simply reality.

No, it's bollocks, is what it is

People remember bad and evil and scary things for - as I say - sound Darwinian reasons. We will remember Trump, even the millions that despise him. For many people, they will remember him so they can remind themselves they must stop a second Trump. Which is simple good sense

Yes we remember scary things, but we remember great art much more because it endures.

Swift is possibly the most iconic artist of our generation. People could still be listening to Taylor's music centuries from now, in the same way we still enjoy the art of Bach, or Shakespeare, or Da Vinci - all of whom are household names around the globe centuries after they passed, because their works have endured.

I think we mostly remember the daft things we've done. I have quite a catalogue that stick in the mind.

The good things - I guess if you've saved someone's life or the like then that'd stick.

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

I sometimes wonder what it would be like if everyone on PB was meeting up in person in a pub instead of online.

Drinks would have to be on Leon.

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Unless he creates an enduring legacy he will slowly recede into history, as all politicians do, as indeed we all do. Lincoln is remembered for ending slavery. Washington is remembered for creating the US Republic. Churchill is remembered for 1940. Nobody reembers Taft, or Buchannan, or Cleveland. But people who create great art create a legacy than ensures we remember them. We listen to musicians' works centuries after they die, and we connect with their thoughts and their genius. This isn't TDS, this is simply reality.

No, it's bollocks, is what it is

People remember bad and evil and scary things for - as I say - sound Darwinian reasons. We will remember Trump, even the millions that despise him. For many people, they will remember him so they can remind themselves they must stop a second Trump. Which is simple good sense

Yes we remember scary things, but we remember great art much more because it endures.

Swift is possibly the most iconic artist of our generation. People could still be listening to Taylor's music centuries from now, in the same way we still enjoy the art of Bach, or Shakespeare, or Da Vinci - all of whom are household names around the globe centuries after they passed, because their works have endured.

Leon's right, Trump will be remembered and his legacy will outlast him by a couple of decades regardless of his successor in his biasing of the SCOTUS.

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

Not really.

60 years from now people will still be listening to Swift, in the same way as we still have Dylan or the Beatles played on the radio and streamed today.

That will keep her as a household name. People will have moved on from Trump to whatever other controversial politicians have succeeded him in that time.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

You're obviously wrong.

Trump is far more than the average politician, in really bad ways. Swift is far more than the average artist, in really good ways.

Great art endures for centuries. Politicians don't.

Is Taylor Swifts work great art? I couldn't name a song of hers, or recognise one. But that's probably because I'm not of the right demographic.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries.

Nah.

You can only make such judgments with the benefit of historical hindsight.
There are numerous writers and musicians, hugely popular for a brief time, who are almost forgotten today.

The comparison of J S with Taylor S is absurd, not least as Bach was himself on the way to being forgotten for quite a while.
It was solely the rediscovery of his music, and not anything about his lifetime fame, that today has him acknowledged as one of the true greats.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Unless he creates an enduring legacy he will slowly recede into history, as all politicians do, as indeed we all do. Lincoln is remembered for ending slavery. Washington is remembered for creating the US Republic. Churchill is remembered for 1940. Nobody reembers Taft, or Buchannan, or Cleveland. But people who create great art create a legacy than ensures we remember them. We listen to musicians' works centuries after they die, and we connect with their thoughts and their genius. This isn't TDS, this is simply reality.

No, it's bollocks, is what it is

People remember bad and evil and scary things for - as I say - sound Darwinian reasons. We will remember Trump, even the millions that despise him. For many people, they will remember him so they can remind themselves they must stop a second Trump. Which is simple good sense

Yes we remember scary things, but we remember great art much more because it endures.

Swift is possibly the most iconic artist of our generation. People could still be listening to Taylor's music centuries from now, in the same way we still enjoy the art of Bach, or Shakespeare, or Da Vinci - all of whom are household names around the globe centuries after they passed, because their works have endured.

Yet the beatles who were arguably more a thing are largely forgotten by gen z

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

I doubt it. Nixon was a hugely dominant figure in US politics for over a decade, viscerally hated by the liberal left, who enjoyed a level of political hegemony that Trump could only dream of. Nixon also created enduring political legacies - the political realignment in the southern US, ending the Vietnam War, and his pivot to China. And yet 50-60 years later he is fading into history, while Dylan's legacy endures and his music is embraced by new generations of fans.

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

.

Mexicanpete said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

You're obviously wrong.

Trump is far more than the average politician, in really bad ways. Swift is far more than the average artist, in really good ways.

Great art endures for centuries. Politicians don't.

Leon has a point.

We all remember Genghis Khan, but no one can remember who had the 1227 Christmas number one.

Well there's Hildegard of Bingen, from the 12thC.


And apparently some polyphonic French bloke called Léonin.

Pagan2 said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Unless he creates an enduring legacy he will slowly recede into history, as all politicians do, as indeed we all do. Lincoln is remembered for ending slavery. Washington is remembered for creating the US Republic. Churchill is remembered for 1940. Nobody reembers Taft, or Buchannan, or Cleveland. But people who create great art create a legacy than ensures we remember them. We listen to musicians' works centuries after they die, and we connect with their thoughts and their genius. This isn't TDS, this is simply reality.

No, it's bollocks, is what it is

People remember bad and evil and scary things for - as I say - sound Darwinian reasons. We will remember Trump, even the millions that despise him. For many people, they will remember him so they can remind themselves they must stop a second Trump. Which is simple good sense

Yes we remember scary things, but we remember great art much more because it endures.

Swift is possibly the most iconic artist of our generation. People could still be listening to Taylor's music centuries from now, in the same way we still enjoy the art of Bach, or Shakespeare, or Da Vinci - all of whom are household names around the globe centuries after they passed, because their works have endured.

Yet the beatles who were arguably more a thing are largely forgotten by gen z

Er nope.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Pagan2 said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Unless he creates an enduring legacy he will slowly recede into history, as all politicians do, as indeed we all do. Lincoln is remembered for ending slavery. Washington is remembered for creating the US Republic. Churchill is remembered for 1940. Nobody reembers Taft, or Buchannan, or Cleveland. But people who create great art create a legacy than ensures we remember them. We listen to musicians' works centuries after they die, and we connect with their thoughts and their genius. This isn't TDS, this is simply reality.

No, it's bollocks, is what it is

People remember bad and evil and scary things for - as I say - sound Darwinian reasons. We will remember Trump, even the millions that despise him. For many people, they will remember him so they can remind themselves they must stop a second Trump. Which is simple good sense

Yes we remember scary things, but we remember great art much more because it endures.

Swift is possibly the most iconic artist of our generation. People could still be listening to Taylor's music centuries from now, in the same way we still enjoy the art of Bach, or Shakespeare, or Da Vinci - all of whom are household names around the globe centuries after they passed, because their works have endured.

Yet the beatles who were arguably more a thing are largely forgotten by gen z

They're not. My 16yo son taught himself to play Hey Jude on the piano.

One person remembering them does not make them culturally significant in the same way as for instance beethoven

Nigelb said:

.

Mexicanpete said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

You're obviously wrong.

Trump is far more than the average politician, in really bad ways. Swift is far more than the average artist, in really good ways.

Great art endures for centuries. Politicians don't.

Leon has a point.

We all remember Genghis Khan, but no one can remember who had the 1227 Christmas number one.

Well there's Hildegard of Bingen, from the 12thC.


And apparently some polyphonic French bloke called Léonin.

If you tell me it was f*****' Greensleeves, you win!

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

BartholomewRoberts said:

Nigelb said:

Nigelb said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries.

Nah.

You can only make such judgments with the benefit of historical hindsight.
There are numerous writers and musicians, hugely popular for a brief time, who are almost forgotten today.

The comparison of J S with Taylor S is absurd, not least as Bach was himself on the way to being forgotten for quite a while.
It was solely the rediscovery of his music, and not anything about his lifetime fame, that today has him acknowledged as one of the true greats.

For Barty, Wikipedia even has a dedicated page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_of_Johann_Sebastian_Bach's_music

Fair enough, maybe not the best comparator then.

Though the point stands, that artists can be well remembered centuries later if their works endure, whereas politicians - even vividly loved/hated ones from an era tend to fade away unless there's a dramatic legacy for good or ill (eg Civil War, WWII etc).

More likely a century from now than people will be streaming Swift's music, than Trump's speeches.

Swift will be up there with Katy Perry and Rihanna.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Swift is comparable to Bach and Shakespeare as one of the most successful and prolific artists on the planet, known as a household name around the planet, with a legacy that is likely to endure for centuries.

Oh come on. Taylor Swift is not a great artist. She is very successful and good at what she does. But that was true of Dave Dee Dozy Beaky Mick and Titch and Duran Duran.

Donald Trump will be remembered. Probably not as a great president, but as a very newsworthy one.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

Except that scientists have looked at all this, and found that it is literally true. Popular music is getting cruder, less complex, less interesting technically. Lyrics have got coarser, less inventive, and so forth

We can argue the Why but there is no doubt it is happening

Here's an excellent Spectator article on this very theme:

"And this isn’t me talking. This isn’t an old man shouting about Taylor Swift (by the metrics I am discussing, she is actually that rare thing: a good modern pop star), this is the science talking. Musicologists have spent the last decade or more carefully analysing, parsing, and deconstructing the rhythms, lyrics, harmonies, and orchestration of modern popular music, and their conclusion is: WTF is that racket, turn it down.

An article in the Times earlier this month was just the most recent example of this musicological trend. Titled ‘The Ever Shrinking Song, How TikTok is Transforming Music’, the article goes into some depth about the demands of TikTok algorithms, feeding a hunger for ever speedier stimulation, which in turn is making songs notably shorter and simpler, edging them closer to jingles and ad melodies, or the simplistic tunes emitted by annoying toys. Here’s one paragraph:

"The result of all this analysis is the changing shape and structure of songs themselves. Popular music is increasingly tailored to short social media attention spans. Many of the most popular songs on apps such as TikTok start with choruses or short introductions, while devices such as the middle eight and bridge – such as when the Beatles sing ‘Life is very short …’ in ‘We Can Work it Out’ – are waning.""

And much more thereto

"Speaking of Bob Dylan – a lyricist so gifted he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature – let us look at the decay of lyrics, as this has also been carefully studied. One such analysis (in 2018) concluded that ‘the complexity of lyrics is declining,’ it also compared words used in 220 chart-topping songs to expected reading levels in US schoolchildren, and decided that most modern songs seem, lyrically, ‘aimed at kids aged 8 or 9’.

"What’s more, these lyrics are getting evermore negative, several studies – e.g. Quantitative Sentiment Analysis of Lyrics in Popular Music (from the Journal of Popular Music Studies) ­– have shown that whereas pop music once commonly expressed joy, love, energy, freedom, and happy sexuality, now themes of anger, violence, hatred, greed and despair are much more prevalent."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-official-modern-music-is-bad/

OldKingCole said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

I doubt it. Nixon was a hugely dominant figure in US politics for over a decade, viscerally hated by the liberal left, who enjoyed a level of political hegemony that Trump could only dream of. Nixon also created enduring political legacies - the political realignment in the southern US, ending the Vietnam War, and his pivot to China. And yet 50-60 years later he is fading into history, while Dylan's legacy endures and his music is embraced by new generations of fans.

I thought it was Johnson who brought about the re-alignment in the American South.

No, he brought about a temporary re-alignment in the English North...

Daveyboy1961 said:

OldKingCole said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

I doubt it. Nixon was a hugely dominant figure in US politics for over a decade, viscerally hated by the liberal left, who enjoyed a level of political hegemony that Trump could only dream of. Nixon also created enduring political legacies - the political realignment in the southern US, ending the Vietnam War, and his pivot to China. And yet 50-60 years later he is fading into history, while Dylan's legacy endures and his music is embraced by new generations of fans.

I thought it was Johnson who brought about the re-alignment in the American South.

No, he brought about a temporary re-alignment in the English North...

Ha ha. No, different, and altogether 'better' Johnson.

OldKingCole said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

OldKingCole said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

I doubt it. Nixon was a hugely dominant figure in US politics for over a decade, viscerally hated by the liberal left, who enjoyed a level of political hegemony that Trump could only dream of. Nixon also created enduring political legacies - the political realignment in the southern US, ending the Vietnam War, and his pivot to China. And yet 50-60 years later he is fading into history, while Dylan's legacy endures and his music is embraced by new generations of fans.

I thought it was Johnson who brought about the re-alignment in the American South.

No, he brought about a temporary re-alignment in the English North...

Ha ha. No, different, and altogether 'better' Johnson.

Bet he doesn't do this for Starmer.

Albanian PM welcomes Meloni, kneeling before her.
https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1923327823562895863

Better clip here.
The dude is big.
https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1923347096473616622

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Not sure if Taylor will be remembered but I believe Bach was largely forgotten, certainly not publicly performed, for 80 odd years after his death.

It took Mendelssohn to rediscover him. Makes you wonder who or what genius we (or are children) will rediscover from the 1940s and 50s who is utterly ignored

BartholomewRoberts said:

OldKingCole said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

OldKingCole said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

I doubt it. Nixon was a hugely dominant figure in US politics for over a decade, viscerally hated by the liberal left, who enjoyed a level of political hegemony that Trump could only dream of. Nixon also created enduring political legacies - the political realignment in the southern US, ending the Vietnam War, and his pivot to China. And yet 50-60 years later he is fading into history, while Dylan's legacy endures and his music is embraced by new generations of fans.

I thought it was Johnson who brought about the re-alignment in the American South.

No, he brought about a temporary re-alignment in the English North...

Ha ha. No, different, and altogether 'better' Johnson.

There is no way the man who blocked Reconstruction and set back his country until the Civil Rights movement a century later is 'better'.

EDIT: Oh, sorry, were you talking about LBJ and not Andrew Johnson?

I think we in this country have only had one significant Johnson haven't we? Is that part of the American problem; a surfeit of Johnsons?

(Open goal left for someone!)

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

stodge said:

Leon said:

Has someone turned down the PB IQ dial? This argument is absurd. I feel like I am arguing with 12 year olds

"Trump will be forgotten by 2029, I literally won't remember him" - @Nigelb

"Taylor Swift is as good as Bach and Shakespeare" - @BartholomewRoberts

Any I've missed?

Near the fish market in Cadiz last Wednesday week was a busker playing Sultans of Swing on a Spanish guitar. Now, what struck me was the song was released in May 1978 - 47 years later, it's still being played and referenced.

I'm not saying people will remember Dire Straits or every song they ever created or covered but Sultans is an iconic tune and people play it and remember it.

Even on the ship it was part of the Pop Quiz and while the 21 year old hosting the quiz wasn't born when it came out, she knew it just as people know some of the Beatles songs 60 years on.

That's the classical music of the 21st Century and perhaps beyond - it's not a question of competing with Bach, Mozart or Elvis but there will be songs which will be remembered and the vast majority which won't.

Yes, I agree with that

And I've noticed the same phenom around the world. Pop music 1965-2000 is becoming the classical music of our time. The default, the standard, the accepted best, and the go-to. A bit like Renaissance art 1400-1600?

Which throws new light on TayTay. I agree she's really good, but I would argue if she was around in 1969, 1976, or even the early 90s she would not be a tenth as famous, or even a hundredth, because she is not THAT good, and she would be competing with many more brilliant artists writing brilliant songs

TayTay has done really well because she's a genuinely talented young woman - and cute - with a definite ability to write shimmering and catchy tunes, but she is not Bob Dylan, or even Joni Mitchell. She's done so well because she exists in a musical nadir where there is a lack of competition - and also because of a new musical ecosystem which rewards just one or two and ignores everyone else

And, I repeat, I like her music

I think you're just old and looking back with rose-tinted glasses. People always think older stuff is better and that modern stuff doesn't compare. There were people saying that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s too.

Except that scientists have looked at all this, and found that it is literally true. Popular music is getting cruder, less complex, less interesting technically. Lyrics have got coarser, less inventive, and so forth

We can argue the Why but there is no doubt it is happening

Here's an excellent Spectator article on this very theme:

"And this isn’t me talking. This isn’t an old man shouting about Taylor Swift (by the metrics I am discussing, she is actually that rare thing: a good modern pop star), this is the science talking. Musicologists have spent the last decade or more carefully analysing, parsing, and deconstructing the rhythms, lyrics, harmonies, and orchestration of modern popular music, and their conclusion is: WTF is that racket, turn it down.

An article in the Times earlier this month was just the most recent example of this musicological trend. Titled ‘The Ever Shrinking Song, How TikTok is Transforming Music’, the article goes into some depth about the demands of TikTok algorithms, feeding a hunger for ever speedier stimulation, which in turn is making songs notably shorter and simpler, edging them closer to jingles and ad melodies, or the simplistic tunes emitted by annoying toys. Here’s one paragraph:

"The result of all this analysis is the changing shape and structure of songs themselves. Popular music is increasingly tailored to short social media attention spans. Many of the most popular songs on apps such as TikTok start with choruses or short introductions, while devices such as the middle eight and bridge – such as when the Beatles sing ‘Life is very short …’ in ‘We Can Work it Out’ – are waning.""

And much more thereto

"Speaking of Bob Dylan – a lyricist so gifted he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature – let us look at the decay of lyrics, as this has also been carefully studied. One such analysis (in 2018) concluded that ‘the complexity of lyrics is declining,’ it also compared words used in 220 chart-topping songs to expected reading levels in US schoolchildren, and decided that most modern songs seem, lyrically, ‘aimed at kids aged 8 or 9’.

"What’s more, these lyrics are getting evermore negative, several studies – e.g. Quantitative Sentiment Analysis of Lyrics in Popular Music (from the Journal of Popular Music Studies) ­– have shown that whereas pop music once commonly expressed joy, love, energy, freedom, and happy sexuality, now themes of anger, violence, hatred, greed and despair are much more prevalent."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-official-modern-music-is-bad/

I don't think that article was writtne by a "scientist", I think it was written by an old man of a very comparable age to yourself.

And even then, as the article notes, Taylor isn't one who has that simplicity. She is a lyricist and a story-teller in her works, like Dylan and others mentioned.

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Leon said:

Thinking Taylor TayTay Swift will be remembered for many decades longer than President Donald J Trump is an interesting sub-symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome

People who viscerally hate Trump WANT to believe this, because the idea he gets to live on in history is so intolerable: he doesn't deserve it

But it doesn't make it correct. It is clearly wrong, and asinine

Who's better remembered by the general public, Lennon & McCartney or Harold Wilson?

Artists often outlast politicians.

Trump is far more than the average politician, often in really bad ways

Honestly, this argument is dumb. I am obviously right

Who looms largest now, Dylan or Nixon?

You're simultaneously underestimating Trump's cultural footprint and overestimating Swift's.

It's an interesting question, and my gut is that Trump will be remembered more, in the same way that Kennedy, Churchill or Hitler or Roosevelt is remembered.

On the other hand, more people can probably name the top bands of the 1960s than -say- Lyndon Johnson.

There are therefore two questions:

- Is Taylor Swift as big a cultural phenomenon as bands like the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan?
- Will Trump be as remembered as Kennedy or will he be more like a Nixon?

I think the answer is that Taylor Swift probably isn't as big a phenomenon, but I'd also guess that 50 year olds in 1968 probably didn't think the Rolling Stones would be that big. So, there's definitely cognitive biases playing a role.

And I think that Trump, for good or ill, is going to be well remembered. Not to the level of a Kennedy (who did manage to get himself assasinated), but certainly more than a Bush or Ford.