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Fewer than a third think Farage will become PM within four years – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,471
edited May 16 in General
Fewer than a third think Farage will become PM within four years – politicalbetting.com

31% of Britons say it is likely Nigel Farage will become prime minister within the next four years, up from 18% who said so in JanuaryAll Britons: 31% say it is likely (+13 from 21 Jan)By party voted for in 2024Reform UK: 71% (+17)Conservative: 35% (+13)Lib Dem: 20% (+11)Labour: 20% (+8)

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608
    edited May 16
    The obvious reason being that there probably won't be a General Election in the next 4 years!

    Labour isn't calling an early election on current polling.

    If the question was for 5 years then it would be a different answer.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608

    Foxy said:

    The obvious reason being that there probably won't be a General Election in the next 4 years!

    Labour isn't calling an early election on current polling.

    I say that in the header!
    It shows that Reform voters can't add up...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,620
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The obvious reason being that there probably won't be a General Election in the next 4 years!

    Labour isn't calling an early election on current polling.

    I say that in the header!
    It shows that Reform voters can't add up...
    The timescale to the 2029 election is something Jenrick and his anti-Kemi rebels have only just realised. Oust Kemi now and the new leader will himself be replaced before the election, given recent Tory leaders last only 2 or 3 years. See TSE's cut-out and keep graph in a recent header.
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/05/10/recent-history-suggests-badenoch-will-not-make-it-to-the-general-election/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,835
    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,598
    Reform voters confident that something they want will happen, even when it's impossible?

    (OK, not quite impossible, but you get the idea.)

    The Captain Renault principle applies.
  • vikvik Posts: 369
    The recent More In Common poll from 3-4 May found some more nuanced results:
    https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/media/apqji45m/post_local_elections.xlsx

    69% "don’t think this Labour government will be re-elected at the next General Election".
    59% think "Keir Starmer will not still be Prime Minister at the time of the next General Election"

    Percentages who think the PM after the next election will be:
    Keir Starmer: 12%
    Labour politician other than Keir Starmer: 7%
    Total Labour: 18%

    Kemi Badenoch : 4%
    Conservative politician other than Kemi Badenoch: 7%
    Total Conservative: 11%

    Nigel Farage: 19%
    Reform UK politician other than Nigel Farage: 5%
    Total Reform: 25%

    Ed Davey: 2%
    Lib Dem politician other than Ed Davey: 1%
    Total LibDem: 3%

    Other: 2%
    Don't Know: 42%
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832
    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    I think he got demob happy and decided to call it quits.

    Unlikely Starmer does the same, but recent history shows it is possible.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,945
    My holiday starts in a fortnight.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,947

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,598
    edited May 16

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    But do we?

    Assuming those jobs still need to be done, the consequence of that will be British workers being pushed down the value chain. That is not how most countries do it, and I'm pretty sure they have got the logic right. The rationale is to free up native staff to do the nicer, more profitable jobs. First-order and second-order effects strike again.

    And whilst there is a moral question about importing people from poor countries to do the jobs we don't want to do, the free market answer to that is that migrant workers are (largely) freely entering into the job and are free to go when they want.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    But do we?

    Assuming those jobs still needs to be done, the consequence of that will be British workers being pushed down the value chain. That is not how most countries do it, and I'm pretty sure they have got the logic right. The rationale is to free up native staff to do the nicer, more profitable jobs. First-order and second-order effects strike again.

    And whilst there is a moral question about importing people from poor countries to do the jobs we don't want to do, the free market answer to that is that migrant workers are (largely) freely entering into the job and are free to go when they want.
    Yes, by and large people want those skilled jobs paying £37 000+ for themselves, and someone else to clean up the nursing home.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,023

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Here's the problem - because the narrative has been as uncontrolled as the numbers for the last few years, a great deal of voters think the target migration number must be negative. You can't satisfy people who have a genuine concern but have been gaslit into demanding an ungenuine outcome.

    And the issue isn't the NHS and skilled jobs - even though that is a genuine issue. I think people get that it takes time to train even if they don't understand how long or why.

    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    But do we?

    Assuming those jobs still needs to be done, the consequence of that will be British workers being pushed down the value chain. That is not how most countries do it, and I'm pretty sure they have got the logic right. The rationale is to free up native staff to do the nicer, more profitable jobs. First-order and second-order effects strike again.

    And whilst there is a moral question about importing people from poor countries to do the jobs we don't want to do, the free market answer to that is that migrant workers are (largely) freely entering into the job and are free to go when they want.
    Your post fails in its first assumption, not all jobs that are done need doing. Productivity happens by letting wages rise and seeing jobs that are unproductive/don't need doing disappear.

    And it's blood and soil racist to be suggesting we should have slave indentured low wage imported labour to allow the natives to go up the value chain.

    Which is anyway totally ignoring the fact that 88% of care staff for instance were born in the country!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,620
    edited May 16

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Why? Surely that can easily be turned round. We should train our own doctors and nurses rather than act like colonial powers asset-stripping developing countries of their healthcare workers. We should bring in low-skilled, low-paid workers to free up our own people for better jobs.

    I'm not saying I advocate that position but it seems just as plausible as its opposite, especially if we agree to treat academic researchers as a special class.

    Damn! Scooped by Stuartinromford who said it better and typed faster just one post earlier.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,665

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    I think he got demob happy and decided to call it quits.

    Unlikely Starmer does the same, but recent history shows it is possible.
    Sunak only had a few months to go, max. I presume he thought the economic indicators would get worse, I also think it was to wrong-foot the new government by making it start during the summer recess
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832
    edited May 16

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Here's the problem - because the narrative has been as uncontrolled as the numbers for the last few years, a great deal of voters think the target migration number must be negative. You can't satisfy people who have a genuine concern but have been gaslit into demanding an ungenuine outcome.

    And the issue isn't the NHS and skilled jobs - even though that is a genuine issue. I think people get that it takes time to train even if they don't understand how long or why.

    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
    I don't think the number should be net negative, I think it can be in the hundreds of thousands so long as we build even more hundreds of thousands of housing and associated infrastructure.

    But net negative migration is not ungenuine or gaslit. It's what happened for most of the late 20th century during which time we had productivity growth and rising wages.

    Half our population still does not go to University. We have no shortage of people to fill unskilled roles. If an employer can't find someone to work for them, they can improve productivity, pay and conditions.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,620

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    But do we?

    Assuming those jobs still needs to be done, the consequence of that will be British workers being pushed down the value chain. That is not how most countries do it, and I'm pretty sure they have got the logic right. The rationale is to free up native staff to do the nicer, more profitable jobs. First-order and second-order effects strike again.

    And whilst there is a moral question about importing people from poor countries to do the jobs we don't want to do, the free market answer to that is that migrant workers are (largely) freely entering into the job and are free to go when they want.
    Yes, by and large people want those skilled jobs paying £37 000+ for themselves, and someone else to clean up the nursing home.
    Yet 88% of nursing home staff were born in this country.

    Why haven't they magically all got £37k jobs as a result?

    Life doesn't work that way, which is why we have universal education.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,162

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    It won’t end debate. Opinion polls only matter to politicians when they support their worldview. Otherwise they are disposable.

    Look at the reaction here, and on social media, to some quite sensible proposals from Starmer. You’d think he was the second coming of Oswald Mosley.

    It’s also true that amplified voices on social media are not reflective of the wider public.

    Still, we will keep getting what we are given as we keep,voting for these people.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,009
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    But do we?

    Assuming those jobs still needs to be done, the consequence of that will be British workers being pushed down the value chain. That is not how most countries do it, and I'm pretty sure they have got the logic right. The rationale is to free up native staff to do the nicer, more profitable jobs. First-order and second-order effects strike again.

    And whilst there is a moral question about importing people from poor countries to do the jobs we don't want to do, the free market answer to that is that migrant workers are (largely) freely entering into the job and are free to go when they want.
    Yes, by and large people want those skilled jobs paying £37 000+ for themselves, and someone else to clean up the nursing home.
    Particularly if you're £50k in debt from university and that skilled visa limit effectively puts a ceiling on the lower tiers of skilled/professional jobs.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832
    Dopermean said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    But do we?

    Assuming those jobs still needs to be done, the consequence of that will be British workers being pushed down the value chain. That is not how most countries do it, and I'm pretty sure they have got the logic right. The rationale is to free up native staff to do the nicer, more profitable jobs. First-order and second-order effects strike again.

    And whilst there is a moral question about importing people from poor countries to do the jobs we don't want to do, the free market answer to that is that migrant workers are (largely) freely entering into the job and are free to go when they want.
    Yes, by and large people want those skilled jobs paying £37 000+ for themselves, and someone else to clean up the nursing home.
    Particularly if you're £50k in debt from university and that skilled visa limit effectively puts a ceiling on the lower tiers of skilled/professional jobs.
    If you're concerned about suppressing the wages of those on a moderately high income, it would be even more immoral to suppress the wages of those on an even lower income, would it not?

    But importing skilled people doesn't suppress skilled wages because we all gain from high skills and lump of labour is a fallacy. It's importing unskilled that devalues our knowledge base and worsens our average.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,414

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Meanwhile for a forthcoming by-election (actually delayed main council election) in Northamptonshire, Reform seems to be doing its best to wrongfoot itself, putting up four official candidates for the two places, one of whom then withdrew, leaving three Reform candidates on the ballot paper...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,598

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Here's the problem - because the narrative has been as uncontrolled as the numbers for the last few years, a great deal of voters think the target migration number must be negative. You can't satisfy people who have a genuine concern but have been gaslit into demanding an ungenuine outcome.

    And the issue isn't the NHS and skilled jobs - even though that is a genuine issue. I think people get that it takes time to train even if they don't understand how long or why.

    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
    I don't think the number should be net negative, I think it can be in the hundreds of thousands so long as we build even more hundreds of thousands of housing and associated infrastructure.

    But net negative migration is not ungenuine or gaslit. It's what happened for most of the late 20th century during which time we had productivity growth and rising wages.

    Half our population still does not go to University. We have no shortage of people to fill unskilled roles. If an employer can't find someone to work for them, they can improve productivity, pay and conditions.
    The catch is that productivity improvements are lumpy- some jobs can become ten or a hundred times more productive, others will struggle to eke out a few percent.

    Number wrangling in finance is way more productive than before computing, for example. But maths teaching is still a teacher with 1-3 dozen pupils. Almost certainly more productive than in the days of blackboards, but not transformatively so.

    (Actually, it's worse than that. The cost of highly numerate people has gone up, because of the gravitational effect of the City and tech firms. So in terms of maths education per pound spent, productivity probably ends up going down. You could argue that the true hourly cost of a maths teacher is what they can make doing private tuition- that's 2-3 times what schools pay.)

    So we end up at a bit of an impasse. Jobs that we want done, but really don't like the idea of paying for. We could raise public sector pay (because it mostly is a public sector issue) but that would mean more tax, and we don't want that.
  • Interesting numbers on net migration. Suggests Labour will need to get it very low.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,593

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    But do we?

    Assuming those jobs still needs to be done, the consequence of that will be British workers being pushed down the value chain. That is not how most countries do it, and I'm pretty sure they have got the logic right. The rationale is to free up native staff to do the nicer, more profitable jobs. First-order and second-order effects strike again.

    And whilst there is a moral question about importing people from poor countries to do the jobs we don't want to do, the free market answer to that is that migrant workers are (largely) freely entering into the job and are free to go when they want.
    Yes, by and large people want those skilled jobs paying £37 000+ for themselves, and someone else to clean up the nursing home.
    Yet 88% of nursing home staff were born in this country.

    Why haven't they magically all got £37k jobs as a result?

    Life doesn't work that way, which is why we have universal education.
    And outside London that number will be over 90%.

    We're in a similar situation to previous discussions about construction and hospitality workers with business, political and government leaders based in London thinking that the London employment situation applies to the country as a whole.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Meanwhile for a forthcoming by-election (actually delayed main council election) in Northamptonshire, Reform seems to be doing its best to wrongfoot itself, putting up four official candidates for the two places, one of whom then withdrew, leaving three Reform candidates on the ballot paper...
    Has the mystery Reform councillor for North Lake turned up yet?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,414
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Meanwhile for a forthcoming by-election (actually delayed main council election) in Northamptonshire, Reform seems to be doing its best to wrongfoot itself, putting up four official candidates for the two places, one of whom then withdrew, leaving three Reform candidates on the ballot paper...
    Has the mystery Reform councillor for North Lake turned up yet?
    Yes, indeed. It appears he had a family bereavement.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,520
    edited May 16

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    But do we?

    Assuming those jobs still needs to be done, the consequence of that will be British workers being pushed down the value chain. That is not how most countries do it, and I'm pretty sure they have got the logic right. The rationale is to free up native staff to do the nicer, more profitable jobs. First-order and second-order effects strike again.

    And whilst there is a moral question about importing people from poor countries to do the jobs we don't want to do, the free market answer to that is that migrant workers are (largely) freely entering into the job and are free to go when they want.
    Yes, by and large people want those skilled jobs paying £37 000+ for themselves, and someone else to clean up the nursing home.
    Yet 88% of nursing home staff were born in this country.

    Why haven't they magically all got £37k jobs as a result?

    Life doesn't work that way, which is why we have universal education.
    Perhaps they have been crowded out of better paying jobs by highly-skilled migrants? If it wasn't for those migrants, more Brits might have received funded training and degrees from their employers.

    This is a complex question, and why I am quite unhappy with salary as a marker of whether someone contributes to our country or not. Soldiers from the Commonwealth, for example - people who would fight and die for us, but start on a salary of £25k.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,002

    Interesting numbers on net migration. Suggests Labour will need to get it very low.

    They need to perform the impossible task of getting it negative - which means racist people seeing significantly fewer none white faces around.

    I suspect where immigration is an important / deciding factor in people's votes absolutely nothing any Government can do will persuade those voters that the issue is resolved.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,598

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
    Knowing what we know now, wasn't the key factor that prisons were about to reach 100% occupation?

    Early release was bad news for a Labour government; it would have been even worse for the Conservatives to have to do it.
  • Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,845
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    We just need to broadcast A Place in the Sun 24/7 to encourage more retirees to move abroad.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832
    edited May 16

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Here's the problem - because the narrative has been as uncontrolled as the numbers for the last few years, a great deal of voters think the target migration number must be negative. You can't satisfy people who have a genuine concern but have been gaslit into demanding an ungenuine outcome.

    And the issue isn't the NHS and skilled jobs - even though that is a genuine issue. I think people get that it takes time to train even if they don't understand how long or why.

    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
    I don't think the number should be net negative, I think it can be in the hundreds of thousands so long as we build even more hundreds of thousands of housing and associated infrastructure.

    But net negative migration is not ungenuine or gaslit. It's what happened for most of the late 20th century during which time we had productivity growth and rising wages.

    Half our population still does not go to University. We have no shortage of people to fill unskilled roles. If an employer can't find someone to work for them, they can improve productivity, pay and conditions.
    The catch is that productivity improvements are lumpy- some jobs can become ten or a hundred times more productive, others will struggle to eke out a few percent.

    Number wrangling in finance is way more productive than before computing, for example. But maths teaching is still a teacher with 1-3 dozen pupils. Almost certainly more productive than in the days of blackboards, but not transformatively so.

    (Actually, it's worse than that. The cost of highly numerate people has gone up, because of the gravitational effect of the City and tech firms. So in terms of maths education per pound spent, productivity probably ends up going down. You could argue that the true hourly cost of a maths teacher is what they can make doing private tuition- that's 2-3 times what schools pay.)

    So we end up at a bit of an impasse. Jobs that we want done, but really don't like the idea of paying for. We could raise public sector pay (because it mostly is a public sector issue) but that would mean more tax, and we don't want that.
    To take to extremes the fallacy that some are making that it's good to have a class of people in the country doing unskilled jobs, we could save money on maths teachers altogether by eliminating our provision of them to some people.

    Have a class of people who are going to do unskilled jobs. No need for education for them. And minimum wage can be slashed for them. Think how much cheaper staffing your nursing home could be then? Trebles all round.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,706
    edited May 16

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
    Another issue is personal capacity. Why employ a domestic drongo incapable, demotivated and recalcitrant, when an educated, motivated and compliant worker from overseas is available?

    I find clients are seeing significant operational issues when they can no longer guarantee daily staff levels because domestic employees can't be bothered to turn in. Eastern Europeans would apparently drag themselves in pre-Brexit even if they were at death's door.

    I don't believe this idea has been considered by Government.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,002

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
    Knowing what we know now, wasn't the key factor that prisons were about to reach 100% occupation?

    Early release was bad news for a Labour government; it would have been even worse for the Conservatives to have to do it.
    Every big thing where Rishi would have had to make a decision would have looked worse for the Tories.

    Prisons is one
    The reduced tax intake that resulted in the WFA going which was directly connected to the excessive employee NI cuts would have been far more entertaining.
    The third one was the independently determined public sector pay settlements which couldn't be avoided but caused problem 2.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608
    edited May 16

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    We just need to broadcast A Place in the Sun 24/7 to encourage more retirees to move abroad.
    One slight flaw in that plan. Since FoM ended with Brexit they will have to make do with Skegness, unless having loads of money.

    The days when ordinary working people could retire to the Costas are over.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,520

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Here's the problem - because the narrative has been as uncontrolled as the numbers for the last few years, a great deal of voters think the target migration number must be negative. You can't satisfy people who have a genuine concern but have been gaslit into demanding an ungenuine outcome.

    And the issue isn't the NHS and skilled jobs - even though that is a genuine issue. I think people get that it takes time to train even if they don't understand how long or why.

    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
    I don't think the number should be net negative, I think it can be in the hundreds of thousands so long as we build even more hundreds of thousands of housing and associated infrastructure.

    But net negative migration is not ungenuine or gaslit. It's what happened for most of the late 20th century during which time we had productivity growth and rising wages.

    Half our population still does not go to University. We have no shortage of people to fill unskilled roles. If an employer can't find someone to work for them, they can improve productivity, pay and conditions.
    The catch is that productivity improvements are lumpy- some jobs can become ten or a hundred times more productive, others will struggle to eke out a few percent.

    Number wrangling in finance is way more productive than before computing, for example. But maths teaching is still a teacher with 1-3 dozen pupils. Almost certainly more productive than in the days of blackboards, but not transformatively so.

    (Actually, it's worse than that. The cost of highly numerate people has gone up, because of the gravitational effect of the City and tech firms. So in terms of maths education per pound spent, productivity probably ends up going down. You could argue that the true hourly cost of a maths teacher is what they can make doing private tuition- that's 2-3 times what schools pay.)

    So we end up at a bit of an impasse. Jobs that we want done, but really don't like the idea of paying for. We could raise public sector pay (because it mostly is a public sector issue) but that would mean more tax, and we don't want that.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,609

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Here's the problem - because the narrative has been as uncontrolled as the numbers for the last few years, a great deal of voters think the target migration number must be negative. You can't satisfy people who have a genuine concern but have been gaslit into demanding an ungenuine outcome.

    And the issue isn't the NHS and skilled jobs - even though that is a genuine issue. I think people get that it takes time to train even if they don't understand how long or why.

    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
    I don't think the number should be net negative, I think it can be in the hundreds of thousands so long as we build even more hundreds of thousands of housing and associated infrastructure.

    But net negative migration is not ungenuine or gaslit. It's what happened for most of the late 20th century during which time we had productivity growth and rising wages.

    Half our population still does not go to University. We have no shortage of people to fill unskilled roles. If an employer can't find someone to work for them, they can improve productivity, pay and conditions.
    The catch is that productivity improvements are lumpy- some jobs can become ten or a hundred times more productive, others will struggle to eke out a few percent.

    Number wrangling in finance is way more productive than before computing, for example. But maths teaching is still a teacher with 1-3 dozen pupils. Almost certainly more productive than in the days of blackboards, but not transformatively so.

    (Actually, it's worse than that. The cost of highly numerate people has gone up, because of the gravitational effect of the City and tech firms. So in terms of maths education per pound spent, productivity probably ends up going down. You could argue that the true hourly cost of a maths teacher is what they can make doing private tuition- that's 2-3 times what schools pay.)

    So we end up at a bit of an impasse. Jobs that we want done, but really don't like the idea of paying for. We could raise public sector pay (because it mostly is a public sector issue) but that would mean more tax, and we don't want that.
    To take to extremes the fallacy that some are making that it's good to have a class of people in the country doing unskilled jobs, we could save money on maths teachers altogether by eliminating our provision of them to some people.

    Have a class of people who are going to do unskilled jobs. No need for education for them. And minimum wage can be slashed for them. Think how much cheaper staffing your nursing home could be then? Trebles all round.
    Isn't that how education and pay worked in the 50s before Rosla? We didn't need nursing homes then as cancer killed a lot and those that survived were looked after by surviving daughters?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,599
    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    It won’t end debate. Opinion polls only matter to politicians when they support their worldview. Otherwise they are disposable.

    Look at the reaction here, and on social media, to some quite sensible proposals from Starmer. You’d think he was the second coming of Oswald Mosley.

    It’s also true that amplified voices on social media are not reflective of the wider public.

    Still, we will keep getting what we are given as we keep,voting for these people.
    Flawed survey because of the dividing points chosen.

    100k to 500k is a huge range. I'd regard 100k net immigration as inadequate for replacement for the demographic loss of workers as the late boomer retired population burgeons with the British born, and inadequate to even prevent damaging population decline come a decade or so's time.

    Yet 500k net migration is hugely problematic for services, housing and integration.

    A sweet spot somewhere below around 200k (but no artificial targets please, just policy that consistently pushes in that direction) is where I'd like things to be. That's about what I said pre-Brexit 10 years ago, but the higher migration since has been balanced by a quicker decline in birth rates, so I think we're not far off being in the same place.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,845
    The GE could be held on the same day as the locals in 2029.

    So just under 4 years away.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,601
    eek said:

    Interesting numbers on net migration. Suggests Labour will need to get it very low.

    They need to perform the impossible task of getting it negative - which means racist people seeing significantly fewer none white faces around.

    I suspect where immigration is an important / deciding factor in people's votes absolutely nothing any Government can do will persuade those voters that the issue is resolved.
    Kind of, but not quite imo.

    Labour aren't going to get hardly any of the people who rank immigration as their main issue and have done for many years. But the 10% who have moved to Reform in the last year? They (rightly) see immigration as too high and not controlled properly over the last five years and want to see change, it may be the current decider in how they vote. If they see progress back to where it was a decade ago for some of that 10% that will be enough. Win back 2-3% from there, another 2-3% from the rest of the electorate would be enough to be the difference between winning and losing.

    And of Labour's own current vote many will have anxiety over immigration too, the government need to make progress to protect their own vote as well as try to get some back from Reform.



  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,620

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
    Knowing what we know now, wasn't the key factor that prisons were about to reach 100% occupation?

    Early release was bad news for a Labour government; it would have been even worse for the Conservatives to have to do it.
    Maybe. One conspiracy theory we can with hindsight rule out was that Sunak wanted to be out by summer so his daughters could start the new school year in California. As you say, it could be prisons. It could be the notorious £22 billion black hole caused by unfunded future NIC cuts.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,599
    edited May 16

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,845
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    We just need to broadcast A Place in the Sun 24/7 to encourage more retirees to move abroad.
    One slight flaw in that plan. Since FoM ended with Brexit they will have to make do with Skegness, unless having loads of money.

    The days when ordinary working people could retire to the Costas are over.
    Haven't some countries brought in specific rules to get round this for people who buy property?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
    Knowing what we know now, wasn't the key factor that prisons were about to reach 100% occupation?

    Early release was bad news for a Labour government; it would have been even worse for the Conservatives to have to do it.
    Maybe. One conspiracy theory we can with hindsight rule out was that Sunak wanted to be out by summer so his daughters could start the new school year in California. As you say, it could be prisons. It could be the notorious £22 billion black hole caused by unfunded future NIC cuts.
    There were no unfunded NIC cuts though, that's not true.

    The NIC "cuts" were as @RochdalePioneers kept pointing out a fully funded tax rise.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,641
    Times claiming that the Chagos deal is on hold: https://www.thetimes.com/article/a980d31c-893d-4e51-af2a-0b8756f43501?shareToken=cb7a9f495dbde81e9cc52bff94fae900

    I guess they’ll try and bring it back sometime later, but without the push from the top is it really going to happen?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,370

    Foxy said:

    The obvious reason being that there probably won't be a General Election in the next 4 years!

    Labour isn't calling an early election on current polling.

    I say that in the header!
    No one except me reads the headers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,370
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    People aren't really interested in the net migration figures.
    As the rise of Powell on the right demonstrated, fifty years ago.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    People aren't really interested in the net migration figures.
    As the rise of Powell on the right demonstrated, fifty years ago.
    His infamous speech was in a year with net emigration. What he didn't want was the presence of immigrants at all, nothing to do with net flows.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,355
    Skeiry threat..

    If you're one of the smugglers putting people in small boats across the channel — we’re coming after you.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1923272799516307683
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,620

    eek said:

    Interesting numbers on net migration. Suggests Labour will need to get it very low.

    They need to perform the impossible task of getting it negative - which means racist people seeing significantly fewer none white faces around.

    I suspect where immigration is an important / deciding factor in people's votes absolutely nothing any Government can do will persuade those voters that the issue is resolved.
    Kind of, but not quite imo.

    Labour aren't going to get hardly any of the people who rank immigration as their main issue and have done for many years. But the 10% who have moved to Reform in the last year? They (rightly) see immigration as too high and not controlled properly over the last five years and want to see change, it may be the current decider in how they vote. If they see progress back to where it was a decade ago for some of that 10% that will be enough. Win back 2-3% from there, another 2-3% from the rest of the electorate would be enough to be the difference between winning and losing.

    And of Labour's own current vote many will have anxiety over immigration too, the government need to make progress to protect their own vote as well as try to get some back from Reform.



    Reform is not primarily about immigration. Reform is NOTA. Reform is our lives are getting worse and the country's going to the dogs. Immigration is a factor but it is a scapegoat, replacing the old one now that Brexit has not led to the sunlit uplands.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
    Knowing what we know now, wasn't the key factor that prisons were about to reach 100% occupation?

    Early release was bad news for a Labour government; it would have been even worse for the Conservatives to have to do it.
    Maybe. One conspiracy theory we can with hindsight rule out was that Sunak wanted to be out by summer so his daughters could start the new school year in California. As you say, it could be prisons. It could be the notorious £22 billion black hole caused by unfunded future NIC cuts.
    He didn't want to face Conference in September either.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,402
    The other parties need to try and claw back some of the Reform switchers before they become hardened cult members drinking the Kool Aid .

    Once they start mirroring the Trump cult it’s hard to dislodge them from their beliefs and you get to a point where facts no longer matter.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,379

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
    Knowing what we know now, wasn't the key factor that prisons were about to reach 100% occupation?

    Early release was bad news for a Labour government; it would have been even worse for the Conservatives to have to do it.
    Maybe. One conspiracy theory we can with hindsight rule out was that Sunak wanted to be out by summer so his daughters could start the new school year in California. As you say, it could be prisons. It could be the notorious £22 billion black hole caused by unfunded future NIC cuts.
    There were no unfunded NIC cuts though, that's not true.

    The NIC "cuts" were as @RochdalePioneers kept pointing out a fully funded tax rise.
    Begs the question what would an unfunded tax rise look like?

    (Oh God, I've just invoked the ghost of nonsense-peddler Saint Laffer haven't I?)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,835

    Skeiry threat..

    If you're one of the smugglers putting people in small boats across the channel — we’re coming after you.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1923272799516307683

    "People Smuggler? We've devised the ultimate punishment. 20 minutes, alone with Keir Starmer in a locked room. If you can't do the boredom, don't do the crime."
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,601
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    People aren't really interested in the net migration figures.
    As the rise of Powell on the right demonstrated, fifty years ago.
    Deliver on housing, employment and law and order then immigration won't matter electorally. But its impossible to deliver on housing in particular with migration approaching a million per year.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,020
    edited May 16
    Phil said:

    Times claiming that the Chagos deal is on hold: https://www.thetimes.com/article/a980d31c-893d-4e51-af2a-0b8756f43501?shareToken=cb7a9f495dbde81e9cc52bff94fae900

    I guess they’ll try and bring it back sometime later, but without the push from the top is it really going to happen?

    But but but, national security or something, had to be done, asap, whatever the cost...

    Convenient excuse now to say well worried about the PR. Maybe Mauritius are asked for extra cherries on top of their extra cherries.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,947
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    People aren't really interested in the net migration figures.
    As the rise of Powell on the right demonstrated, fifty years ago.
    We can't let one speech, made 57 years ago, prevent us having the debate we need to have today about immigration.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 786

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    We just need to broadcast A Place in the Sun 24/7 to encourage more retirees to move abroad.
    Have they covered Forch in Switzerland yet?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,608

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    People aren't really interested in the net migration figures.
    As the rise of Powell on the right demonstrated, fifty years ago.
    We can't let one speech, made 57 years ago, prevent us having the debate we need to have today about immigration.
    We're hardly prevented having a debate on immigration. It's pretty much the main thing that politicians bang on about for most of the last quarter century.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,706
    nico67 said:

    The other parties need to try and claw back some of the Reform switchers before they become hardened cult members drinking the Kool Aid .

    Once they start mirroring the Trump cult it’s hard to dislodge them from their beliefs and you get to a point where facts no longer matter.

    Surely we have passed that point of no return.

    Take Harry Cole's front page in today's Sun. A victim becomes the perp. Is it because Lammy is black?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,581
    31% though is all Farage and Reform need for a majority under FPTP unless heavy tactical voting against them
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,945

    nico67 said:

    The other parties need to try and claw back some of the Reform switchers before they become hardened cult members drinking the Kool Aid .

    Once they start mirroring the Trump cult it’s hard to dislodge them from their beliefs and you get to a point where facts no longer matter.

    Surely we have passed that point of no return.

    Take Harry Cole's front page in today's Sun. A victim becomes the perp. Is it because Lammy is black?
    No, The Sun are trying to make Lammy the most popular person in the UK.

    Any politician would kill to have a front page of them saying ‘The fucking French’.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,592

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    To be fair he's probably factually correct - we have probably baked in some fairly severe tipping points by now.

    I'm not sure that's what he means to imply, though.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,612

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
    Knowing what we know now, wasn't the key factor that prisons were about to reach 100% occupation?

    Early release was bad news for a Labour government; it would have been even worse for the Conservatives to have to do it.
    Maybe. One conspiracy theory we can with hindsight rule out was that Sunak wanted to be out by summer so his daughters could start the new school year in California. As you say, it could be prisons. It could be the notorious £22 billion black hole caused by unfunded future NIC cuts.
    There were no unfunded NIC cuts though, that's not true.

    The NIC "cuts" were as @RochdalePioneers kept pointing out a fully funded tax rise.
    Begs the question what would an unfunded tax rise look like?

    (Oh God, I've just invoked the ghost of nonsense-peddler Saint Laffer haven't I?)
    Laffer?

    I’ve sat across from people saying that, since they would keep only a pound or 2 per extra hour worked, they don’t want to work extra hours. Because, by the time you factor in travel, clothing wear and tear etc, they would lose money.

    Or is Laffer only for rich people?

    Welcome to the benefits trap. We give people money in a way that penalises them for working more. Then they don’t work more.

    When Trump puts an 80% tariff on something, he is trying to kill import of that thing. When we put an effective tax rate of 80% on poor people working more….
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,706

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    People aren't really interested in the net migration figures.
    As the rise of Powell on the right demonstrated, fifty years ago.
    We can't let one speech, made 57 years ago, prevent us having the debate we need to have today about immigration.
    Sir Sheer Whatever you call him hasn't stopped banging on about immigration since he got slapped by Farage at the locals. And Brave Sir Nigel is always having the debate, often with himself. Of course Philp spilled the beans yesterday about the boat people and Brexit, ooh and Jenrick and Braverman and Patel...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,241

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    If you substitute 'won't' for 'can't', and take as read that the science of warming is correct - which is a reasonable assumption - Tice, while slightly simplifying is about correct.

    Global CO2 emissions continue to be at record levels. And if by some miracle they ceased right now warming would continue to work its way through the system.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,020
    edited May 16

    nico67 said:

    The other parties need to try and claw back some of the Reform switchers before they become hardened cult members drinking the Kool Aid .

    Once they start mirroring the Trump cult it’s hard to dislodge them from their beliefs and you get to a point where facts no longer matter.

    Surely we have passed that point of no return.

    Take Harry Cole's front page in today's Sun. A victim becomes the perp. Is it because Lammy is black?
    No, The Sun are trying to make Lammy the most popular person in the UK.

    Any politician would kill to have a front page of them saying ‘The fucking French’.
    400 miles in the back of a Ford Kuga, I think I would be f##king furious.

    I am genuinely surprised that the Foreign Security is travelling around by such means.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,945

    nico67 said:

    The other parties need to try and claw back some of the Reform switchers before they become hardened cult members drinking the Kool Aid .

    Once they start mirroring the Trump cult it’s hard to dislodge them from their beliefs and you get to a point where facts no longer matter.

    Surely we have passed that point of no return.

    Take Harry Cole's front page in today's Sun. A victim becomes the perp. Is it because Lammy is black?
    No, The Sun are trying to make Lammy the most popular person in the UK.

    Any politician would kill to have a front page of them saying ‘The fucking French’.
    400 miles in the back of a Ford Kuga, I think I would be f##king furious.
    This is why I use Uber Exec/Lux.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,241
    HYUFD said:

    31% though is all Farage and Reform need for a majority under FPTP unless heavy tactical voting against them

    With four years to run, the chance of tactical voting becoming a major sport is fairly high. Most people want to vote for winners or at least a horse that will give them a run. Things can change, but at the moment the real GE contest in 2029 would be Reform v Lab/LD/One Nation/SNP alliance.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,203

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Yes but the polling wasn't about that, it was about wanting zero or negative migration.

    To achieve that we need to restrict far more than low skilled migration, and in any case those restrictions are already now in place.
    People aren't really interested in the net migration figures.
    As the rise of Powell on the right demonstrated, fifty years ago.
    We can't let one speech, made 57 years ago, prevent us having the debate we need to have today about immigration.
    Who the f*** is not having the debate? Debating immigration is 63% of PB discussion.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,612

    nico67 said:

    The other parties need to try and claw back some of the Reform switchers before they become hardened cult members drinking the Kool Aid .

    Once they start mirroring the Trump cult it’s hard to dislodge them from their beliefs and you get to a point where facts no longer matter.

    Surely we have passed that point of no return.

    Take Harry Cole's front page in today's Sun. A victim becomes the perp. Is it because Lammy is black?
    No, The Sun are trying to make Lammy the most popular person in the UK.

    Any politician would kill to have a front page of them saying ‘The fucking French’.
    400 miles in the back of a Ford Kuga, I think I would be f##king furious.
    Did Tangier to Rabat in a taxi, once. Big old Mercedes. Driver held the racing line on the coast road all night. Forced him to stop for coffee near dawn - he was falling asleep at the wheel.

    When we got to the other end, tried to renegotiate the price, as expected.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,825
    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,581

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Here's the problem - because the narrative has been as uncontrolled as the numbers for the last few years, a great deal of voters think the target migration number must be negative. You can't satisfy people who have a genuine concern but have been gaslit into demanding an ungenuine outcome.

    And the issue isn't the NHS and skilled jobs - even though that is a genuine issue. I think people get that it takes time to train even if they don't understand how long or why.

    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
    I don't think the number should be net negative, I think it can be in the hundreds of thousands so long as we build even more hundreds of thousands of housing and associated infrastructure.

    But net negative migration is not ungenuine or gaslit. It's what happened for most of the late 20th century during which time we had productivity growth and rising wages.

    Half our population still does not go to University. We have no shortage of people to fill unskilled roles. If an employer can't find someone to work for them, they can improve productivity, pay and conditions.
    The catch is that productivity improvements are lumpy- some jobs can become ten or a hundred times more productive, others will struggle to eke out a few percent.

    Number wrangling in finance is way more productive than before computing, for example. But maths teaching is still a teacher with 1-3 dozen pupils. Almost certainly more productive than in the days of blackboards, but not transformatively so.

    (Actually, it's worse than that. The cost of highly numerate people has gone up, because of the gravitational effect of the City and tech firms. So in terms of maths education per pound spent, productivity probably ends up going down. You could argue that the true hourly cost of a maths teacher is what they can make doing private tuition- that's 2-3 times what schools pay.)

    So we end up at a bit of an impasse. Jobs that we want done, but really don't like the idea of paying for. We could raise public sector pay (because it mostly is a public sector issue) but that would mean more tax, and we don't want that.
    To take to extremes the fallacy that some are making that it's good to have a class of people in the country doing unskilled jobs, we could save money on maths teachers altogether by eliminating our provision of them to some people.

    Have a class of people who are going to do unskilled jobs. No need for education for them. And minimum wage can be slashed for them. Think how much cheaper staffing your nursing home could be then? Trebles all round.
    One third of the adult working age population haven't even got a C grade in English and Maths or their current grade equivalent so not everyone can do skilled work certainly at a higher level
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,706

    nico67 said:

    The other parties need to try and claw back some of the Reform switchers before they become hardened cult members drinking the Kool Aid .

    Once they start mirroring the Trump cult it’s hard to dislodge them from their beliefs and you get to a point where facts no longer matter.

    Surely we have passed that point of no return.

    Take Harry Cole's front page in today's Sun. A victim becomes the perp. Is it because Lammy is black?
    No, The Sun are trying to make Lammy the most popular person in the UK.

    Any politician would kill to have a front page of them saying ‘The fucking French’.
    But I like the French, particularly Isabelle Adjani, Lea Seydoux and Eva Green.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,706

    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
    I'm sorry I missed your "0.7% growth! Man, Reeves is awesome" post yesterday.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,706

    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
    The ghost of Prime Minister Boris Johnson from 2021 is waving at you.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,825

    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
    I'm sorry I missed your "0.7% growth! Man, Reeves is awesome" post yesterday.
    That's because I posted Labour are still shit.

    Do keep up.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,825

    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
    The ghost of Prime Minister Boris Johnson from 2021 is waving at you.
    Boris Johnson is alive and well and I can meet him at kid's birthday parties if I want.

    However I didnt vote for him so I suspect we will avoid politics.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,594
    Another one doon the rabbit hole. Was never that bothered by Morrisey & his music but I did like KC. Haven't listened to his records for a wee while, but I'll check them out later to see if I feel different.

    The Herald
    @heraldscotland
    "We’d just watched King Creosote possibly torch his good name by telling us that he thought Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens as well as local boy and vaccine-sceptic Neil Oliver were among his pantheon of 'good guys'."

    https://heraldscotland.com/opinion/25160503.open-letter-king-creosote-please-dont-become-scotlands-morrissey/

    https://x.com/heraldscotland/status/1922678206890426674
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,331
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Here's the problem - because the narrative has been as uncontrolled as the numbers for the last few years, a great deal of voters think the target migration number must be negative. You can't satisfy people who have a genuine concern but have been gaslit into demanding an ungenuine outcome.

    And the issue isn't the NHS and skilled jobs - even though that is a genuine issue. I think people get that it takes time to train even if they don't understand how long or why.

    The real issue is unskilled where despite that word the migrants fill a genuine gap in the labour market. If British people wanted / could afford those jobs they would have taken them...
    I don't think the number should be net negative, I think it can be in the hundreds of thousands so long as we build even more hundreds of thousands of housing and associated infrastructure.

    But net negative migration is not ungenuine or gaslit. It's what happened for most of the late 20th century during which time we had productivity growth and rising wages.

    Half our population still does not go to University. We have no shortage of people to fill unskilled roles. If an employer can't find someone to work for them, they can improve productivity, pay and conditions.
    The catch is that productivity improvements are lumpy- some jobs can become ten or a hundred times more productive, others will struggle to eke out a few percent.

    Number wrangling in finance is way more productive than before computing, for example. But maths teaching is still a teacher with 1-3 dozen pupils. Almost certainly more productive than in the days of blackboards, but not transformatively so.

    (Actually, it's worse than that. The cost of highly numerate people has gone up, because of the gravitational effect of the City and tech firms. So in terms of maths education per pound spent, productivity probably ends up going down. You could argue that the true hourly cost of a maths teacher is what they can make doing private tuition- that's 2-3 times what schools pay.)

    So we end up at a bit of an impasse. Jobs that we want done, but really don't like the idea of paying for. We could raise public sector pay (because it mostly is a public sector issue) but that would mean more tax, and we don't want that.
    To take to extremes the fallacy that some are making that it's good to have a class of people in the country doing unskilled jobs, we could save money on maths teachers altogether by eliminating our provision of them to some people.

    Have a class of people who are going to do unskilled jobs. No need for education for them. And minimum wage can be slashed for them. Think how much cheaper staffing your nursing home could be then? Trebles all round.
    One third of the adult working age population haven't even got a C grade in English and Maths or their current grade equivalent so not everyone can do skilled work certainly at a higher level
    There's a story in our local paper that various secondary schools are writing to their feeder primary schools once again advising that the pupils arriving simply do not have an adequate understanding of either maths or English and urging them to focus more on them.

    No doubt the boxes have all been ticked and the reports done stating that the children are at the standard expected for their age but the reality is that they are innumerate and illiterate. I very much doubt this will change any time soon.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,017
    Good moaning!

    I brung you a massage: The Scrumming Ogles heartily endorses Doovid Limmy's toorade against the Frunch toxi-droover!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,706

    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
    The ghost of Prime Minister Boris Johnson from 2021 is waving at you.
    Boris Johnson is alive and well and I can meet him at kid's birthday parties if I want.

    However I didnt vote for him so I suspect we will avoid politics.
    I was very specific in my post. The great man's PRMEMIINISTERship is surely dead without hope of resurrection.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,836
    On the US economy and debt and Trump's BIG BILL:

    "Prof Rogoff says that episode was an amuse bouche. He fears inflation could reach 20pc to 25pc in the next wave, which may not be far away. No bondholder waits for that. Once in motion it becomes self-fulfilling."

    AEP - Telegraph

    Rogoff has studied the history of crashes.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,027

    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
    I'm sorry I missed your "0.7% growth! Man, Reeves is awesome" post yesterday.
    Odds on that being revised downwards.....?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,825

    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
    The ghost of Prime Minister Boris Johnson from 2021 is waving at you.
    Boris Johnson is alive and well and I can meet him at kid's birthday parties if I want.

    However I didnt vote for him so I suspect we will avoid politics.
    I was very specific in my post. The great man's PRMEMIINISTERship is surely dead without hope of resurrection.
    Of course it is though why you think I give a shit is unclear.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,620
    King Charles’ wealth jumps £30m in 2025 – making him as rich as Sunak and wife
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/king-charles-rich-list-wealth-2025-elizabeth-crown-b2752182.html

    The real reason Rishi resigned?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832

    rcs1000 said:

    Why would Labour call a General Election they are likely to lose in the next four years?

    Why did Sunak call an early election knowing he would lose?

    He did it to wrongfoot Reform!
    Sunak was probably wrong but the government could only have run for another six months anyway, and several weeks were blocked out for Christmas.
    Knowing what we know now, wasn't the key factor that prisons were about to reach 100% occupation?

    Early release was bad news for a Labour government; it would have been even worse for the Conservatives to have to do it.
    Maybe. One conspiracy theory we can with hindsight rule out was that Sunak wanted to be out by summer so his daughters could start the new school year in California. As you say, it could be prisons. It could be the notorious £22 billion black hole caused by unfunded future NIC cuts.
    There were no unfunded NIC cuts though, that's not true.

    The NIC "cuts" were as @RochdalePioneers kept pointing out a fully funded tax rise.
    Begs the question what would an unfunded tax rise look like?

    (Oh God, I've just invoked the ghost of nonsense-peddler Saint Laffer haven't I?)
    Laffer?

    I’ve sat across from people saying that, since they would keep only a pound or 2 per extra hour worked, they don’t want to work extra hours. Because, by the time you factor in travel, clothing wear and tear etc, they would lose money.

    Or is Laffer only for rich people?

    Welcome to the benefits trap. We give people money in a way that penalises them for working more. Then they don’t work more.

    When Trump puts an 80% tariff on something, he is trying to kill import of that thing. When we put an effective tax rate of 80% on poor people working more….
    This. This. 1000x this.

    Any Government that deserves to be in place needs to eliminate the cliff edges and benefits trap.

    'But it's difficult' - don't seek office then.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,825
    Trump to meet Putin
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,162
    Three Tory councillors quit the party.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqj7v7x1gywo
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,211

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    That should really end the debate.

    63% want virtually none or only entirety tokenistic net migration, and yet we get what the 5% want.
    Yes but wasn't there also a recent survey showing the public greatly underestimates the rate of immigration? If so, is the desired rate actually telling us the desired rate, or just whether they want more of less than the status quo?
    The polling also doesn't cover the downsides of that sort of restriction, such as staffing shortages and rising costs. Which is why government after government of all stripes has permitted these sorts of numbers.
    By rising costs do you mean wages?

    Not sure everyone calls that a downside.
    Yet when British doctors want more pay they don't get a very positive response.

    Isn't the whole point of restricting immigration to give sturdy British Yeomen more leverage?
    Is that the same doctors who were just granted a 22% pay rise?

    Yet we need to keep care staff on minimum wage, because reasons.
    Restricting medical and nursing immigration would certainly help my unions bargaining position.

    It wouldn't do much for either waiting lists or the viability of some services though.

    Still, for the greater good...
    Indeed, so long as your salary is below the £37k or whatever it is that the skilled visa migration threshold is set at.

    No problems with skilled migration, it's the flow of unskilled, minimum wage migration we need to be stemming.
    Why? Surely that can easily be turned round. We should train our own doctors and nurses rather than act like colonial powers asset-stripping developing countries of their healthcare workers. We should bring in low-skilled, low-paid workers to free up our own people for better jobs.

    I'm not saying I advocate that position but it seems just as plausible as its opposite, especially if we agree to treat academic researchers as a special class.

    Damn! Scooped by Stuartinromford who said it better and typed faster just one post earlier.
    We have a lump of unskilled labour as well that currently doesn't work (not talking here about carers or the disabled). Part of the issue for a lot of them is that there are not the jobs in their area that they can get to. An example is there are vacancies in Cardiff but the unemployed in north wales can't get there.

    Maybe what we should be looking at is a "Help to relocate" scheme
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,832

    Trump to meet Putin

    Getting his new orders, or just a regular status update checkin with his employer?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,402

    Trump to meet Putin

    So Trump will turn up accept all the Russian demands and tell Ukraine it has to accept the agreement.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,604

    Pro_Rata said:

    Tice says we can’t stop climate change and it’s gone on for millions of years.

    Sounds a bit denial-adjacent to me.

    Absolutely disgusting quote from Tice as well.

    "And that's why they voted for Reform in massive numbers, where they're allowed to vote"

    MAGA adjacent conspiracist Timothy White and Taylor.
    the Conservatives and Labour stopped local elections across southern and eastern England in nine councils in May. Factually he is correct.
    I'm sorry I missed your "0.7% growth! Man, Reeves is awesome" post yesterday.
    Odds on that being revised downwards.....?
    Maybe, but then just as likely to go up as well. From memory (so could be wrong) there have been several revisions up recently.

    I'm not cynical that it is manipulated so happy to assume the odds on up, down or staying the same are all fair.
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