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The greatest resurrection of all time. There’s more Liz Truss leadership talk – politicalbetting.com

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,185

    Commiserations to @Foxy and all other Leicester supporters. Having a soft spot for Ipswich, due to family ties, we will be joining you soon. The difference is that we weren’t expected to be promoted last season, and weren’t ready for the Premiership. At least we’re not Southampton.

    It's been on the cards for months, and is thoroughly deserved.

    Life as a Leicester City fan is a roller coaster. In the last decade we have had 2 great seasons, winning both the PL and the FA Cup and the Championship, and been relegated twice. It's a wild ride, and this season started badly and got worse.

    I don't mind playing in the Championship, we've been there before and I know both success and failure are transient.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,615
    Eabhal said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    I saw that but wasn't brave enough to link to it.

    "Live, laugh, love" vibes. I wish their social media delved into the history and mystery of royalty and religion, not this infantile stuff. I'd be fascinated in how an Anglo-Saxon or Pictish King observed Easter, for example.
    Some of our royalty celebrated Easter by going to Jerusalem to murder Muslims/engage in ethnic cleansing, none of this utter woke nonsense we see from the current royals*.

    *Prince Harry of course went to Muslim lands to kill Muslims.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,816
    Happy 4 20 day everyone
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,326
    I've transitioned twice today.

    I'm still not human.,, ;)
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,598
    kinabalu said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    A touch classier than Donald Trump's offering.
    Yup, raining bombs on Afghan wedding parties by his administration exudes class.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,165

    rcs1000 said:

    College said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yeah, I'm with isam and leon here. Weird message by SKS, although that does appear to be the least of his problems rn.

    "contribution Christians have made to this country"? Just weird.

    What on Earth is weird or wrong about that? Even as an atheist I'd acknowledge that Christian have made contributions to this country and Easter is a polite day to recognise that.

    Christians, like Jews, Pagans, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and more have throughout history made contributions to this country.

    The only reason I could see anyone could object is if someone was stupid enough to think Christians haven't contributed, or stupid enough to think they're the only ones who have. Which is it?
    It's that we are a Christian country and the massage was phrased as though Christians were, as isam noted, visitors who made a plucky contribution to the country.
    We are not a Christian country, we are a diverse one in which Christians are one minority amongst many, with an established Church.
    Formally we are a Christian country although of course there are many faiths and people of no faith (bonjour).
    Formally we have an established Church. That is all.

    We are a diverse country. There is no requirement for citizens of this country to be members of the established Church and never has been.
    "At the institutional level, the Anglican Church maintains its status of religion of the state and the King is still Head of the Church: hence by law, England is still a Christian country, which entails some specific privileges for the Church of England that are not extended to other religions."

    So you know, legally and all, we are a Christian country.
    Why is it legal to lend money at interest then?
    Ummm: because Christianity does not forbid it?

    Indeed: the The Institute for the Works of
    Religion (which is basically the Catholic Church's own bank) has both lent and borrowed money with interest. (Not that the UK is a Roman Catholic country. But still.)
    Roberto Calvi waves hello…
    Sorry, he can’t wave. His hands are tied.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,745
    DM_Andy said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    Saying that you would like it not to be a war is undermined by caricaturing your opponents as religious fanatics or useful idiots. You're also ignoring the dynamics of how this issue escalated in the first place.
    It's not a war because I don't want you to be punished for your views. Whereas your side seems to want to crush the people that oppose you. Look at Sussex University fined £585,000 because they didn't stop their students from expressing their free speech and Harvard being stopped billions for not teaching the way Trump wants.
    Freedom of speech does not extend to the right to harass and force someone from their job. Failing to prevent *that* was what Sussex was fined for.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,221
    edited April 20
    nico67 said:

    Why do female to male trans not want to participate in male sports ?

    Of course they’d be at a physical dis-advantage . And the reverse is why male to female trans shouldn’t be allowed to participate in all female sports where strength or speed are important .

    It’s not discrimination it’s just being fair . This really shouldn’t be controversial. I’m not anti anyone and class myself as very Liberal but I expect I’d be utterly eviscerated if I made this post on twitter which I’m not on .

    The debate has become so black or white that it’s almost impossible to just have an opinion that’s “ grey”.


    Before somebody jumps in, there are female to male sportsmen, including one boxer.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,745
    edited April 20

    rcs1000 said:

    College said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yeah, I'm with isam and leon here. Weird message by SKS, although that does appear to be the least of his problems rn.

    "contribution Christians have made to this country"? Just weird.

    What on Earth is weird or wrong about that? Even as an atheist I'd acknowledge that Christian have made contributions to this country and Easter is a polite day to recognise that.

    Christians, like Jews, Pagans, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and more have throughout history made contributions to this country.

    The only reason I could see anyone could object is if someone was stupid enough to think Christians haven't contributed, or stupid enough to think they're the only ones who have. Which is it?
    It's that we are a Christian country and the massage was phrased as though Christians were, as isam noted, visitors who made a plucky contribution to the country.
    We are not a Christian country, we are a diverse one in which Christians are one minority amongst many, with an established Church.
    Formally we are a Christian country although of course there are many faiths and people of no faith (bonjour).
    Formally we have an established Church. That is all.

    We are a diverse country. There is no requirement for citizens of this country to be members of the established Church and never has been.
    "At the institutional level, the Anglican Church maintains its status of religion of the state and the King is still Head of the Church: hence by law, England is still a Christian country, which entails some specific privileges for the Church of England that are not extended to other religions."

    So you know, legally and all, we are a Christian country.
    Why is it legal to lend money at interest then?
    Ummm: because Christianity does not forbid it?

    Indeed: the The Institute for the Works of
    Religion (which is basically the Catholic Church's own bank) has both lent and borrowed money with interest. (Not that the UK is a Roman Catholic country. But still.)
    Roberto Calvi waves hello…
    Sorry, he can’t wave. His hands are tied.
    A whole body wave
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,946

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    Says the atheist ex Muslim TSE.

    At least they all went to church this morning in St George's Chapel Windsor apart from the Prince and Princess of Wales who hosted an Easter Egg hunt at their Norfolk home
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,615
    HYUFD said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    Says the atheist ex Muslim TSE.

    At least they all went to church this morning in St George's Chapel Windsor apart from the Prince and Princess of Wales who hosted an Easter Egg hunt at their Norfolk home
    Wasn’t Prince Andrew there as well? Stellar company.

    FYI - I’m not an atheist, I’m agnostic.

    See, I adhere to a Halal diet, I have never drunk alcohol, I went to the mosque recently.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,946
    Battlebus said:

    Succession to the Crown Act 2013. To be eligible for the throne, a person must:

    • Be a legitimate descendant of Princess Sophia of Hanover.
    • Be Protestant and in communion with the Church of England.
    • Not be a Roman Catholic (though marrying a Catholic no longer disqualifies).
    • If among the first six in line, have the monarch’s consent to marry
    So can the CofE be 'catholic' ?
    Catholic but not Roman Catholic
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,619
    HYUFD said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    Says the atheist ex Muslim TSE.

    At least they all went to church this morning in St George's Chapel Windsor apart from the Prince and Princess of Wales who hosted an Easter Egg hunt at their Norfolk home
    It must be nice to choose which home you host your Easter Egg hunt at.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,326
    Yesterday I posted a piccie of a snail with two shells I found on the pavement in my village. A friend posted it on a relevant FB page, and for anyone who is interested, here's apparently what was happening:

    "Snails often see out the winter or dry spells by waiting together I suitable places and seeling themselves inside their shells to save water. Sometimes they use other snails as convenient surfaces to seal themselves against. I would guess one snail has become active before the other, or possible one snail has died while sealed to another. The scar of a third snail can also be seen."

    I daresay someone else might be as fascinated by this as I was... :)
  • CollegeCollege Posts: 82
    edited April 20
    Is there a market on this year's general election in St Vincent and the Grenadines, where Ralph Gonsalves, leader of the Unity Labour Party, hopes to win a sixth consecutive term as prime minister? He's currently the longest serving PM in any parliamentary democracy. He has been in office for 24 years, far longer than second-placed Viktor Orban in Hungary. To replace him, Godwin Friday, leader of the New Democratic Party, would need to flip two seats of 15. From my limited knowledge, I'd put the ULP at odds-on. (DYOR)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,110
    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,185
    Eabhal said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    I saw that but wasn't brave enough to link to it.

    "Live, laugh, love" vibes. I wish their social media delved into the history and mystery of royalty and religion, not this infantile stuff. I'd be fascinated in how an Anglo-Saxon or Pictish King observed Easter, for example.
    I don't think the picts were Christian, so probably didn't celebrate. Easter is an Anglo-Saxon word, and involved both bunnies and eggs, but got combined with the Christian story.

    https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/lifestyle/culture/the-very-strange-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

    Anglo-Saxon kings did get into serious dispute over setting the date of Easter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswiu

  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,890
    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,110
    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    I saw that but wasn't brave enough to link to it.

    "Live, laugh, love" vibes. I wish their social media delved into the history and mystery of royalty and religion, not this infantile stuff. I'd be fascinated in how an Anglo-Saxon or Pictish King observed Easter, for example.
    I don't think the picts were Christian, so probably didn't celebrate. Easter is an Anglo-Saxon word, and involved both bunnies and eggs, but got combined with the Christian story.

    https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/lifestyle/culture/the-very-strange-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

    Anglo-Saxon kings did get into serious dispute over setting the date of Easter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswiu

    Certainly Pictish stones with Celtic crosses on them.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,890
    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,205
    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Remember when Rupert Murdoch controlled political discourse in Britain? Happy days :trollface:
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,405

    Yesterday I posted a piccie of a snail with two shells I found on the pavement in my village. A friend posted it on a relevant FB page, and for anyone who is interested, here's apparently what was happening:

    "Snails often see out the winter or dry spells by waiting together I suitable places and seeling themselves inside their shells to save water. Sometimes they use other snails as convenient surfaces to seal themselves against. I would guess one snail has become active before the other, or possible one snail has died while sealed to another. The scar of a third snail can also be seen."

    I daresay someone else might be as fascinated by this as I was... :)

    Yes, thanks for the update.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,405
    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    I hope that the US government logins that DOGE reportedly gave to Russia don't give access to any other country's affairs.
  • CollegeCollege Posts: 82
    College said:

    Is there a market on this year's general election in St Vincent and the Grenadines, where Ralph Gonsalves, leader of the Unity Labour Party, hopes to win a sixth consecutive term as prime minister? He's currently the longest serving PM in any parliamentary democracy. He has been in office for 24 years, far longer than second-placed Viktor Orban in Hungary. To replace him, Godwin Friday, leader of the New Democratic Party, would need to flip two seats of 15. From my limited knowledge, I'd put the ULP at odds-on. (DYOR)

    Correction - 25 years. He took office in 2010.

    By the time of this year's election in November, he will be 79 and the opposition leader will be 66.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,191
    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,221

    Yesterday I posted a piccie of a snail with two shells I found on the pavement in my village. A friend posted it on a relevant FB page, and for anyone who is interested, here's apparently what was happening:

    "Snails often see out the winter or dry spells by waiting together I suitable places and seeling themselves inside their shells to save water. Sometimes they use other snails as convenient surfaces to seal themselves against. I would guess one snail has become active before the other, or possible one snail has died while sealed to another. The scar of a third snail can also be seen."

    I daresay someone else might be as fascinated by this as I was... :)

    I was interested, thank you.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,609
    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,601
    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    A touch classier than Donald Trump's offering.
    Yup, raining bombs on Afghan wedding parties by his administration exudes class.
    Trump's already started killing Yemenis.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,609
    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,609
    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    How many genders are there now? One toilet for each would be ruinous.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,601
    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    If you're XY, you're a guy.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,890
    edited April 20

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,890

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    That’s @Fishing ’s mortal enemy.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,619
    Foxy said:

    On the subject of Easter greetings the Don knows how to top and tail:



    I had to double check that as even for him, that seemed repulsive.

    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114370361342759621

    Can't wait for the media to grill Farage on his Trump-fawning on this.

    ...

    Oh.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,593
    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    With Eagle Eyes.



    That's it for now, despite the spelling mistake.

    Like every Persian carpet, it has a single flaw - because no AI is perfect.

    This action figure craze is all very well, but the environmental impact of the endless landfill of discarded toys, and packaging, that it's going to produce when the novelty wears off doesn't bear thinking about.
    I'm intrigued by the idea that a business will emerge to manufacture these AI-generated figures.

    I shall have a Doug "Performing" Seal action figure, complete with spade, podium and beachball. And a hakapik in case any hunters turn up and need culling.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,334
    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Not even the most WTF aspect of it;

    At the same time, in a small window on the screen, the network aired a service from St. Michael's Golden-Domed Cathedral in Kyiv — the spiritual center of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine.

    At first, the video was labeled correctly: “Easter service: Kyiv, Ukraine.”

    However, after a break in the broadcast, Fox News resumed the coverage with a caption that read: “Easter service: Kyiv, Russia.”


    https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/fox-news-broadcast-easter-from-moscow-and-made-kyiv-russian/ar-AA1Dg6ur
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,609
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    That’s @Fishing ’s mortal enemy.
    We've spent more time at war with France than with anybody else. Only just over a decade against the Germans, for instance. But we had one round with the french that was over a century...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,110
    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Fuck that. I should have done the PCT when I had the chance. Biggest regret of my life.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,779
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
    It's revealing that European visitors think on some level that they ought to receive preferential treatment from the US authorities.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,557

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    That’s @Fishing ’s mortal enemy.
    We've spent more time at war with France than with anybody else. Only just over a decade against the Germans, for instance. But we had one round with the french that was over a century...
    But for how long has there been ONE German state? Conversely we’ve had a king from part of Germany.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,890

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
    It's revealing that European visitors think on some level that they ought to receive preferential treatment from the US authorities.
    Treatment like we treat them would be nice, no? Like those nice e-passport gates we lay on for them. And the conspicuous lack of handcuffs and musty cells for American backpackers in Britain.

    Though suppose it depends who “we” is to you, doesn’t it?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,890
    edited April 20

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    That’s @Fishing ’s mortal enemy.
    We've spent more time at war with France than with anybody else. Only just over a decade against the Germans, for instance. But we had one round with the french that was over a century...
    But for how long has there been ONE German state? Conversely we’ve had a king from part of Germany.
    A large part of our history of wars with the French king was essentially civil war. Not even that: a family spat. The 100 years in particular. We are sibling nations.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,771
    edited April 20
    ...

    NHS cancer patients denied life-saving drugs due to Brexit costs, report finds

    Exclusive: Britons found to have ‘lost out’ while rest of Europe benefits from golden age of research and treatments

    Brexit has ‘damaged the practical ability’ of doctors to offer NHS patients life-saving new drugs via international trials

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2025/apr/20/nhs-cancer-patients-denied-life-saving-drugs-due-to-brexit-costs-report-finds

    Fuck off (to them not you). We had world-beatingly shit cancer survival rates for many years before Brexit was even a twinkle in David Cameron's eye. Trying to blame that on Brexit is pathetic buck passing of the worst type.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,492
    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    I saw that but wasn't brave enough to link to it.

    "Live, laugh, love" vibes. I wish their social media delved into the history and mystery of royalty and religion, not this infantile stuff. I'd be fascinated in how an Anglo-Saxon or Pictish King observed Easter, for example.
    I don't think the picts were Christian, so probably didn't celebrate. Easter is an Anglo-Saxon word, and involved both bunnies and eggs, but got combined with the Christian story.

    https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/lifestyle/culture/the-very-strange-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

    Anglo-Saxon kings did get into serious dispute over setting the date of Easter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswiu

    Celtic Christianity seems like an interesting period.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,557
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    That’s @Fishing ’s mortal enemy.
    We've spent more time at war with France than with anybody else. Only just over a decade against the Germans, for instance. But we had one round with the french that was over a century...
    But for how long has there been ONE German state? Conversely we’ve had a king from part of Germany.
    A large part of our history of wars with the French king was essentially civil war. Not even that: a family spat. The 100 years in particular. We are sibling nations.
    True. Ever since the time of William the Bastard.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,777
    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    As I noted yesterday....dont have an issue with toilets personally as they are cubicles

    However single sex changing rooms, wards, prisons, refuges, rape therapy groups hell yes there is harm.

    If I drop my trousers in front of a random woman it is called flashing and prosecutable as the offence of indecent exposure. Why in your view is it different because the penis bearer has declared themselves to be female?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,492

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    France was an enemy for so long that they have become friends by default. Now it is all about the peaceful rivalry instead.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,492
    College said:

    Is there a market on this year's general election in St Vincent and the Grenadines, where Ralph Gonsalves, leader of the Unity Labour Party, hopes to win a sixth consecutive term as prime minister? He's currently the longest serving PM in any parliamentary democracy. He has been in office for 24 years, far longer than second-placed Viktor Orban in Hungary. To replace him, Godwin Friday, leader of the New Democratic Party, would need to flip two seats of 15. From my limited knowledge, I'd put the ULP at odds-on. (DYOR)

    Bigger place than I'd realised, 100k.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,890
    edited April 20
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,139

    DM_Andy said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    Saying that you would like it not to be a war is undermined by caricaturing your opponents as religious fanatics or useful idiots. You're also ignoring the dynamics of how this issue escalated in the first place.
    It's not a war because I don't want you to be punished for your views. Whereas your side seems to want to crush the people that oppose you. Look at Sussex University fined £585,000 because they didn't stop their students from expressing their free speech and Harvard being stopped billions for not teaching the way Trump wants.
    Oh cut the crap!

    Look at the Nurse in Fife, who was not only illegally not supported when she had a legitimate objection to being made to share the women's changing room with someone who is not a woman, but was then harassed and faced disciplinary action and suspended from work.

    How quickly do you think the NHS should apologise to that Nurse and how much compensation do you think she should receive for the way she has been abused? Or do you think suspending a woman from her job for not wanting to share a changing room with someone who is not a woman is perfectly acceptable?
    Now would be a good time. Still way too late but better late than never.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,771
    ...
    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    France was an enemy for so long that they have become friends by default. Now it is all about the peaceful rivalry instead.
    That is not necessarily true. If reading our history as a story of conflict, recent history is simply that they have been winning.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,468
    The state of this. No one present actually sees the real event, they only see what they are looking at on their iphones as they film it.


    Historic Vids
    @historyinmemes

    For over 900 years, Florence has lit up Easter morning with literal fire.

    https://x.com/historyinmemes/status/1913733348394144016
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,405

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
    It's revealing that European visitors think on some level that they ought to receive preferential treatment from the US authorities.
    Your comment seems to confirm something I read the other day, that US citizens have zero rights at the US border.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,430
    edited April 20
    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Good to read Alastair again. Still interesting. He was probably my favourite poster. A great pity his patience ran out
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,246
    TimS said:
    Why have none of the politicians being paying tribute to Cadburys? Its as if we have forgotten the true meaning of Easter.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,588
    edited April 20
    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    As I noted yesterday....dont have an issue with toilets personally as they are cubicles

    However single sex changing rooms, wards, prisons, refuges, rape therapy groups hell yes there is harm.

    If I drop my trousers in front of a random woman it is called flashing and prosecutable as the offence of indecent exposure. Why in your view is it different because the penis bearer has declared themselves to be female?
    We had this out yesterday, but apparently the lesson didn’t stick: Intent matters.

    The crime of Indecent Exposure requires the intent to cause alarm or distress. No intent? No crime.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/notes/division/5/1/52

    Outraging Public Decency might be made to work, but in an environment where the EHRC stated that it was legitimate & legal for a transwoman to change in a female changing room you’re going to have a really hard time making that charge stick.

    Post Supreme Court decision things might change for the latter charge I guess, but the former will still require intent to charge. You’d still have to prove that a transwoman changing was “a lewd, obscene, or disgusting act” to make OPD stick which might be an uphill struggle even post-supreme court decision.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,890

    ...

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    France was an enemy for so long that they have become friends by default. Now it is all about the peaceful rivalry instead.
    That is not necessarily true. If reading our history as a story of conflict, recent history is simply that they have been winning.
    Tell that to the chronically miserable (but charming) pessimists who inhabit the hexagone. Aside from some bemusement about Brexit and parochial dismissiveneas about our agricultural produce - though that’s declining - they are widely Anglophilic, the young especially, and look up to London as the shining land of opportunity far more than they do Paris.

    Honestly they really do love a moan though, especially about politics. Make the Brits seem like bright eyed innocents by comparison.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,165
    a

    The state of this. No one present actually sees the real event, they only see what they are looking at on their iphones as they film it.


    Historic Vids
    @historyinmemes

    For over 900 years, Florence has lit up Easter morning with literal fire.

    https://x.com/historyinmemes/status/1913733348394144016

    The state of this. No one present actually sees the real event, they only see what they are looking at on their iphones as they film it.


    Historic Vids
    @historyinmemes

    For over 900 years, Florence has lit up Easter morning with literal fire.

    https://x.com/historyinmemes/status/1913733348394144016

    Worse. This has been allowed to happen without a planning enquiry.

    That firework propelled bird on a wire obviously counts as a public transport system.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,201
    edited April 20
    The term “Judeo-Christian” was made up by right-wingers in the U.S. at some stage, probably the 1980s, to sound less exclusionary than the simple term “Christian” and to include neo-con Jews in its dog-whistling appeal to traditional values.

    I’m not surprised to see Jenrick reference it.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,362
    edited April 20
    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    Toilets as in cubicles aren't really an issue, but then unisex cubicles are possible for that reason.

    'Toilets' as a phrase that includes changing rooms, then it absolutely 100% includes harm. Harm for women who have to get naked in front of men, whom they don't want to, or harm of women being exposed to naked men for whom they don't want to see either.

    Changing rooms with your own sex are bad enough, getting changed in front of the opposite sex - nobody should be compelled to do that who does not want to. And the solution isn't to make the women who don't want to, to go elsewhere instead.

    Is any of that unreasonable?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,777
    Phil said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    As I noted yesterday....dont have an issue with toilets personally as they are cubicles

    However single sex changing rooms, wards, prisons, refuges, rape therapy groups hell yes there is harm.

    If I drop my trousers in front of a random woman it is called flashing and prosecutable as the offence of indecent exposure. Why in your view is it different because the penis bearer has declared themselves to be female?
    We had this out yesterday, but apparently the lesson didn’t stick: Intent matters.

    The crime of Indecent Exposure requires the intent to cause alarm or distress. No intent? No crime.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/notes/division/5/1/52

    Outraging Public Decency might be made to work, but in an environment where the EHRC stated that it was legitimate & legal for a transwoman to change in a female changing room you’re going to have a really hard time making that charge stick.

    Post Supreme Court decision things might change for the latter charge I guess, but the former will still require intent to charge. You’d still have to prove that a transwoman changing was “a lewd, obscene, or disgusting act” to make OPD stick which might be an uphill struggle even post-supreme court decision.
    The supreme court has now clarified that the ehrc didn't know its arse from its elbow when it came to this law. Go ahead though and drop your trousers in front of women and even if you actually had no intent to alarm or distress pretty sure you will be found guilty
  • Phil said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    As I noted yesterday....dont have an issue with toilets personally as they are cubicles

    However single sex changing rooms, wards, prisons, refuges, rape therapy groups hell yes there is harm.

    If I drop my trousers in front of a random woman it is called flashing and prosecutable as the offence of indecent exposure. Why in your view is it different because the penis bearer has declared themselves to be female?
    We had this out yesterday, but apparently the lesson didn’t stick: Intent matters.

    The crime of Indecent Exposure requires the intent to cause alarm or distress. No intent? No crime.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/notes/division/5/1/52

    Outraging Public Decency might be made to work, but in an environment where the EHRC stated that it was legitimate & legal for a transwoman to change in a female changing room you’re going to have a really hard time making that charge stick.

    Post Supreme Court decision things might change for the latter charge I guess, but the former will still require intent to charge. You’d still have to prove that a transwoman changing was “a lewd, obscene, or disgusting act” to make OPD stick which might be an uphill struggle even post-supreme court decision.
    A transwoman changing is not lewd.

    Using the women's changing room to do so, however, is.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,392
    edited April 20
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    They had absolutely no accommodation booked for any of their 5 week stay, couldn't tell them any sort of iternary and inability to prove they have sufficient funds to facility such a long stay in what is a very experience part of the US. Which lead the authorities to believe they were intending again doing that work to pay for their board scheme.

    All documentation related to arriving in the US they highly recommend you have accommodation booked for at least part of your stay, proof of funds and some sort of rough itinerary of what you intend to do.

    Little known rule is travel to the EU you are supposed to be able to prove instant access to sufficient funds of at least 50 euros a day on top of accommodation costs. Inability to do can get you turned around at the border and it happens.

    The issue with the US immigration and always has been (it is why the Democrats long campaigned for abolishing the likes of ICE) is they really are power mad. I have said this a number of time, Mrs U has a doctorate, a job at the time which led to her being reported in the media in the UK and US (so easy to look up) but got detained and strip searched due to a mix up relating to somebody with the same name. This was years ago.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,946

    HYUFD said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    Says the atheist ex Muslim TSE.

    At least they all went to church this morning in St George's Chapel Windsor apart from the Prince and Princess of Wales who hosted an Easter Egg hunt at their Norfolk home
    Wasn’t Prince Andrew there as well? Stellar company.

    FYI - I’m not an atheist, I’m agnostic.

    See, I adhere to a Halal diet, I have never drunk alcohol, I went to the mosque recently.
    He was which may be why the Prince and Princess of Wales did not attend. Though of course today is a reminder Jesus died for all our sins, even his
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,609
    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Fox News celebrated Easter by live-streaming Putin's service from Moscow.

    🥺

    Yep. The US administration is allying itself to a mortal enemy of Britain, our European allies and the wider West. With each passing week that becomes clearer.
    Hang on, I thought the mortal enemy was France? Have I missed something?
    France was an enemy for so long that they have become friends by default. Now it is all about the peaceful rivalry instead.
    I’m often heartened by tales of war veterans meeting up after X years and finding comradeship with the enemy. This happened a fair bit for the allies and Germans, but also with the USA and Japan. We have a huge shared history with France. I think they’ve mostly forgiven us for WW2 now…
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,615
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    Says the atheist ex Muslim TSE.

    At least they all went to church this morning in St George's Chapel Windsor apart from the Prince and Princess of Wales who hosted an Easter Egg hunt at their Norfolk home
    Wasn’t Prince Andrew there as well? Stellar company.

    FYI - I’m not an atheist, I’m agnostic.

    See, I adhere to a Halal diet, I have never drunk alcohol, I went to the mosque recently.
    He was which may be why the Prince and Princess of Wales did not attend. Though of course today is a reminder Jesus died for all our sins, even his
    But Jesus didn't stay dead did he though, so it really wasn't a sacrifice.

    So he gave up a weekend, big whoop.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,588

    Phil said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    As I noted yesterday....dont have an issue with toilets personally as they are cubicles

    However single sex changing rooms, wards, prisons, refuges, rape therapy groups hell yes there is harm.

    If I drop my trousers in front of a random woman it is called flashing and prosecutable as the offence of indecent exposure. Why in your view is it different because the penis bearer has declared themselves to be female?
    We had this out yesterday, but apparently the lesson didn’t stick: Intent matters.

    The crime of Indecent Exposure requires the intent to cause alarm or distress. No intent? No crime.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/notes/division/5/1/52

    Outraging Public Decency might be made to work, but in an environment where the EHRC stated that it was legitimate & legal for a transwoman to change in a female changing room you’re going to have a really hard time making that charge stick.

    Post Supreme Court decision things might change for the latter charge I guess, but the former will still require intent to charge. You’d still have to prove that a transwoman changing was “a lewd, obscene, or disgusting act” to make OPD stick which might be an uphill struggle even post-supreme court decision.
    A transwoman changing is not lewd.

    Using the women's changing room to do so, however, is.
    That would be for a court to decide. A small counter example: nudist beaches are clearly not regarded as lewd, despite putting everything on display. (Obviously all parties there consent to seeing everything, but it makes the point that the mere fact that people are naked does not make something lewd, obscene or disgusting.)

    I confess (thankfully) that I am completely unfamiliar with the case law on OPD & what exactly has counted as lewd in the past & hope to remain in that blissful state of ignorance.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,599

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
    It's revealing that European visitors think on some level that they ought to receive preferential treatment from the US authorities.
    Revealing of what ?
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,191
    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    As I noted yesterday....dont have an issue with toilets personally as they are cubicles

    However single sex changing rooms, wards, prisons, refuges, rape therapy groups hell yes there is harm.

    If I drop my trousers in front of a random woman it is called flashing and prosecutable as the offence of indecent exposure. Why in your view is it different because the penis bearer has declared themselves to be female?
    if you drop your trousers in front of anyone in order to frighten or upset them that is indecent exposure. If you expose your genitals in a changing room in the process of getting changed you are not doing it with the intention of frightening or upsetting anyone. It is not any different for a male or a female, cis or trans.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,609
    DavidL said:

    DM_Andy said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    Saying that you would like it not to be a war is undermined by caricaturing your opponents as religious fanatics or useful idiots. You're also ignoring the dynamics of how this issue escalated in the first place.
    It's not a war because I don't want you to be punished for your views. Whereas your side seems to want to crush the people that oppose you. Look at Sussex University fined £585,000 because they didn't stop their students from expressing their free speech and Harvard being stopped billions for not teaching the way Trump wants.
    Oh cut the crap!

    Look at the Nurse in Fife, who was not only illegally not supported when she had a legitimate objection to being made to share the women's changing room with someone who is not a woman, but was then harassed and faced disciplinary action and suspended from work.

    How quickly do you think the NHS should apologise to that Nurse and how much compensation do you think she should receive for the way she has been abused? Or do you think suspending a woman from her job for not wanting to share a changing room with someone who is not a woman is perfectly acceptable?
    Now would be a good time. Still way too late but better late than never.
    Easter has got in the way. I expect the statement and apology will be first thing Tuesday morning.

    I also think Arsenal will win the premier league this year and hell will be rather chilly…
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,875
    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    I saw that but wasn't brave enough to link to it.

    "Live, laugh, love" vibes. I wish their social media delved into the history and mystery of royalty and religion, not this infantile stuff. I'd be fascinated in how an Anglo-Saxon or Pictish King observed Easter, for example.
    I don't think the picts were Christian, so probably didn't celebrate. Easter is an Anglo-Saxon word, and involved both bunnies and eggs, but got combined with the Christian story.

    https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/lifestyle/culture/the-very-strange-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

    Anglo-Saxon kings did get into serious dispute over setting the date of Easter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswiu

    The Picts very definitely were Christian until they were wiped out around 840.

    Curiously the graphic design in that quintessentially Irish work the Book of Kells is mostly Pictish. Which raises interesting questions of nationality. If the Northmen hadn't invaded Iona necessitating the removal of the book to Ireland and - massive if - the book had survived, it would now be seen as a treasure of early Scottish art.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,588
    Pagan2 said:

    Phil said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    As I noted yesterday....dont have an issue with toilets personally as they are cubicles

    However single sex changing rooms, wards, prisons, refuges, rape therapy groups hell yes there is harm.

    If I drop my trousers in front of a random woman it is called flashing and prosecutable as the offence of indecent exposure. Why in your view is it different because the penis bearer has declared themselves to be female?
    We had this out yesterday, but apparently the lesson didn’t stick: Intent matters.

    The crime of Indecent Exposure requires the intent to cause alarm or distress. No intent? No crime.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/notes/division/5/1/52

    Outraging Public Decency might be made to work, but in an environment where the EHRC stated that it was legitimate & legal for a transwoman to change in a female changing room you’re going to have a really hard time making that charge stick.

    Post Supreme Court decision things might change for the latter charge I guess, but the former will still require intent to charge. You’d still have to prove that a transwoman changing was “a lewd, obscene, or disgusting act” to make OPD stick which might be an uphill struggle even post-supreme court decision.
    The supreme court has now clarified that the ehrc didn't know its arse from its elbow when it came to this law. Go ahead though and drop your trousers in front of women and even if you actually had no intent to alarm or distress pretty sure you will be found guilty
    That’s the most begrudging admission of being wrong one could possibly offer but I’ll take it.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,609
    Life would be a lot simpler if we fixed the date of Easter the way we have with Christmas.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,580
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    I saw that but wasn't brave enough to link to it.

    "Live, laugh, love" vibes. I wish their social media delved into the history and mystery of royalty and religion, not this infantile stuff. I'd be fascinated in how an Anglo-Saxon or Pictish King observed Easter, for example.
    I don't think the picts were Christian, so probably didn't celebrate. Easter is an Anglo-Saxon word, and involved both bunnies and eggs, but got combined with the Christian story.

    https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/lifestyle/culture/the-very-strange-history-of-the-easter-bunny/

    Anglo-Saxon kings did get into serious dispute over setting the date of Easter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswiu

    Celtic Christianity seems like an interesting period.
    You would appreciate Iona.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,601
    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    With Eagle Eyes.



    That's it for now, despite the spelling mistake.

    Like every Persian carpet, it has a single flaw - because no AI is perfect.

    This action figure craze is all very well, but the environmental impact of the endless landfill of discarded toys, and packaging, that it's going to produce when the novelty wears off doesn't bear thinking about.
    I'm intrigued by the idea that a business will emerge to manufacture these AI-generated figures.

    I shall have a Doug "Performing" Seal action figure, complete with spade, podium and beachball. And a hakapik in case any hunters turn up and need culling.
    "The goddam cook's a SEAL???"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,599

    The term “Judeo-Christian” was made up by right-wingers in the U.S. at some stage, probably the 1980s, to sound less exclusionary than the simple term “Christian” and to include neo-con Jews in its dog-whistling appeal to traditional values.

    I’m not surprised to see Jenrick reference it.

    Apparently not, according to Wikipedia:

    … Friedrich Nietzsche used the German term "Judenchristlich" ("Jewish-Christian") to describe and emphasize what he believed were neglected aspects of the continuity which exists between the Jewish and Christian worldviews. The expression appears in The Antichrist, published in 1895 but written several years earlier; a fuller development of Nietzsche's argument can be found in the prior work, On the Genealogy of Morality.

    The concept of Judeo-Christian ethics or Judeo-Christian values in an ethical (rather than a theological or liturgical) sense was used by George Orwell in 1939, along with the phrase "the Judaeo-Christian scheme of morals". According to theologian Richard L. Rubenstein, the "normative Judaeo-Christian interpretation of history" is to treat human suffering, such as a plague, as punishment for human guilt.

    According to historian K. Healan Gaston, the term became a descriptor of the U.S. in the 1930s, when the country sought to forge a unified cultural identity in an attempt to distinguish itself from fascism and communism in Europe…


    True that the Neocons seized on it.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,585

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
    It's revealing that European visitors think on some level that they ought to receive preferential treatment from the US authorities.
    Indeed they should. You offer preferential treatment at the border to citizens of friendly countries, and particularly those whose citizens are statistically unlikely to want to work or immigrate illegally. Have a look at the UK border at any airport
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,777
    Phil said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Phil said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    As I noted yesterday....dont have an issue with toilets personally as they are cubicles

    However single sex changing rooms, wards, prisons, refuges, rape therapy groups hell yes there is harm.

    If I drop my trousers in front of a random woman it is called flashing and prosecutable as the offence of indecent exposure. Why in your view is it different because the penis bearer has declared themselves to be female?
    We had this out yesterday, but apparently the lesson didn’t stick: Intent matters.

    The crime of Indecent Exposure requires the intent to cause alarm or distress. No intent? No crime.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/notes/division/5/1/52

    Outraging Public Decency might be made to work, but in an environment where the EHRC stated that it was legitimate & legal for a transwoman to change in a female changing room you’re going to have a really hard time making that charge stick.

    Post Supreme Court decision things might change for the latter charge I guess, but the former will still require intent to charge. You’d still have to prove that a transwoman changing was “a lewd, obscene, or disgusting act” to make OPD stick which might be an uphill struggle even post-supreme court decision.
    The supreme court has now clarified that the ehrc didn't know its arse from its elbow when it came to this law. Go ahead though and drop your trousers in front of women and even if you actually had no intent to alarm or distress pretty sure you will be found guilty
    That’s the most begrudging admission of being wrong one could possibly offer but I’ll take it.
    How do you see it as an admission of being wrong? The law hasn't changed the supreme court just slapped the ehrc down for being wrong.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,392
    edited April 20

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
    It's revealing that European visitors think on some level that they ought to receive preferential treatment from the US authorities.
    Indeed they should. You offer preferential treatment at the border to citizens of friendly countries, and particularly those whose citizens are statistically unlikely to want to work or immigrate illegally. Have a look at the UK border at any airport
    You find they do. Arrive at a US immigration check behind when a load of tourists from China arrive. Every one is questioned for ages, every document checked you will be there for several hours. The same is not applied to a Virgin flight from Gatwick arriving at Orlando or Miami.

    The trouble Europeans get into is when they can't answer a simple question like where are you staying, what do you intend to do, can you show us funds, when are you leaving.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,580

    TimS said:
    Why have none of the politicians being paying tribute to Cadburys? Its as if we have forgotten the true meaning of Easter.
    You need one of these.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,468

    Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧
    @montie
    ·
    8h
    I'm hearing this a lot. Many friends are reporting that Church attendance is growing - especiallly amongst men and in significant numbers

    https://x.com/montie/status/1913930243187834896
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,745
    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barack Obama

    @BarackObama

    To everyone celebrating today, Michelle and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

    Bloody hell, that's almost as provocative and controversial as Starmer's Easter diatribe.
    Wait until you see what The Royal Family had to say, they are supposed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, it is so vanilla. #RepublicNow

    ✝️🐣 He is Risen!

    Wishing a peaceful and happy Easter Sunday to all who celebrate.


    https://x.com/RoyalFamily/status/1913850214303092832
    Says the atheist ex Muslim TSE.

    At least they all went to church this morning in St George's Chapel Windsor apart from the Prince and Princess of Wales who hosted an Easter Egg hunt at their Norfolk home
    It must be nice to choose which home you host your Easter Egg hunt at.
    Amner is their home. They have the use of a flat above the office in London as well.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,745
    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave
    women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    The fear it can generate in others is harm
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,439


    Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧
    @montie
    ·
    8h
    I'm hearing this a lot. Many friends are reporting that Church attendance is growing - especiallly amongst men and in significant numbers

    https://x.com/montie/status/1913930243187834896

    I knew church attendance was going down, but I didn't realise it was going down so badly Montgomery would think it was rocketing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,439
    edited April 20
    One for TSE:

    Vicar brings in a load of chocolate eggs for the choir.

    Also provides a card to thank them for all the lovely music.

    Being a careful sort of person, notes that there is an ingredient in the eggs that can cause a reaction, and notes this on the envelope.

    Unfortunately, lack of punctuation.

    So it reads: 'The choir contains nuts!'
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,468
    ydoethur said:


    Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧
    @montie
    ·
    8h
    I'm hearing this a lot. Many friends are reporting that Church attendance is growing - especiallly amongst men and in significant numbers

    https://x.com/montie/status/1913930243187834896

    I knew church attendance was going down, but I didn't realise it was going down so badly Montgomery would think it was rocketing.
    Harsh.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,354
    My mum just posited that the Labour MPs and activists plotting to undo the SC decision are an "Echo Chamber of Arseholes".

    I know the series is done, but is there *any* way this could be a ninth book @jk_rowling?


    https://x.com/elliot633297/status/1914057993320120364
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,392
    edited April 20

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I agree with Alistair

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3lnbc5zi3gc2e

    I’m sure someone will be along soon to tell us this is all perfectly normal and always has been, and maybe that’s true, but it seems that turning up in the US and planning to travel as serendipity takes you can land you in handcuffs and a police cell.

    It would seem footloose young backpackers should take their business elsewhere.

    Not wishing to be ‘that guy’ but one of the issues is that we are focussing on events like this now whereas before Trump mark II we weren’t. So I genuinely have no idea if this happened under Biden too, but wasn’t given the same reporting.
    We saw this with the Air Traffic Control issues being then linked to every air incident without any idea if events were abnormal or not.

    But the upshot is - yes, there are lots more places in the world to go back packing than places where this shit might happen (USA and Iran would be the two straight off the list…).
    I’m sure there were indeed cases like these before. I expect things probably have got worse since Trump, but that’s hard to prove. What it reminds us all is that the USA is not and never has been a cuddly neighbour that sees European visitors as equals.

    And frankly if the brand damage can stick and they lose their entire tourist industry as a result, then it serves them right for being so utterly obnoxious to their supposed allies.
    It's revealing that European visitors think on some level that they ought to receive preferential treatment from the US authorities.
    Indeed they should. You offer preferential treatment at the border to citizens of friendly countries, and particularly those whose citizens are statistically unlikely to want to work or immigrate illegally. Have a look at the UK border at any airport
    You find they do. Arrive at a US immigration check behind when a load of tourists from China arrive. Every one is questioned for ages, every document checked you will be there for several hours. The same is not applied to a Virgin flight from Gatwick arriving at Orlando or Miami.

    The trouble Europeans get into is when they can't answer a simple question like where are you staying, what do you intend to do, can you show us funds, when are you leaving.
    I think what a lot of people don't realise is US immigration is nothing like going through EU immigration.

    You arrive at an EU airport, even post-Brexit and they scan your passport, they look at the picture, if you are unlucky they ask you a single question and stamp it. All done in a few seconds. The immigration official looks like even doing that is far too much effort.

    The US immigration has never been like that. If you are arriving and not doing a standard package holiday to Mickey Mouse land or NYC, you should expect 5-10 minutes of questions about your plans, your occupation, your relationships, etc. They seem to absolutely love to ask a load of questions, even if it doesn't seem particularly relevant. I have been asked loads about my PhD research, what I think about insert new topic in this area they have read in the media.

    My understanding from seeing interview with former FBI is this is actually drilled into their training about trying to detect if you are being truthful, particularly by throwing in what appears random questions. They are looking for tells in how you answer. How reliable the research it is based upon is another thing.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,191

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    Toilets as in cubicles aren't really an issue, but then unisex cubicles are possible for that reason.

    'Toilets' as a phrase that includes changing rooms, then it absolutely 100% includes harm. Harm for women who have to get naked in front of men, whom they don't want to, or harm of women being exposed to naked men for whom they don't want to see either.

    Changing rooms with your own sex are bad enough, getting changed in front of the opposite sex - nobody should be compelled to do that who does not want to. And the solution isn't to make the women who don't want to, to go elsewhere instead.

    Is any of that unreasonable?
    I think it is. I don't know about you but I don't go into changing rooms with the intention of viewing as much genitalia as possible. I go to get changed. I assume that most women just go into a changing room to get changed too and aren't looking around.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,779
    DM_Andy said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    Toilets as in cubicles aren't really an issue, but then unisex cubicles are possible for that reason.

    'Toilets' as a phrase that includes changing rooms, then it absolutely 100% includes harm. Harm for women who have to get naked in front of men, whom they don't want to, or harm of women being exposed to naked men for whom they don't want to see either.

    Changing rooms with your own sex are bad enough, getting changed in front of the opposite sex - nobody should be compelled to do that who does not want to. And the solution isn't to make the women who don't want to, to go elsewhere instead.

    Is any of that unreasonable?
    I think it is. I don't know about you but I don't go into changing rooms with the intention of viewing as much genitalia as possible. I go to get changed. I assume that most women just go into a changing room to get changed too and aren't looking around.
    Why do we need laws at all when most people just want to do the right thing and don't have any bad intentions?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,392

    My mum just posited that the Labour MPs and activists plotting to undo the SC decision are an "Echo Chamber of Arseholes".

    I know the series is done, but is there *any* way this could be a ninth book @jk_rowling?


    https://x.com/elliot633297/status/1914057993320120364

    I wonder what these MPs trying to undermine the legal decision reaction to Boris playing fast and loose to legal decisions when it came to Brexit. I bet their tweets show some interesting receipts.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,928
    Another sensational night of drama at the Crucible. Hawkins Vafaei goes to a decider. Robertson Wakelin 8-8 on the other table.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,163

    My mum just posited that the Labour MPs and activists plotting to undo the SC decision are an "Echo Chamber of Arseholes".

    I know the series is done, but is there *any* way this could be a ninth book @jk_rowling?


    https://x.com/elliot633297/status/1914057993320120364

    I wonder what these MPs trying to undermine the legal decision reaction to Boris playing fast and loose to legal decisions when it came to Brexit. I bet their tweets show some interesting receipts.
    Yeah, MPs in “want to change the law” shocker. It’s not like that’s their job or anything. Good grief.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,588
    edited April 20

    My mum just posited that the Labour MPs and activists plotting to undo the SC decision are an "Echo Chamber of Arseholes".

    I know the series is done, but is there *any* way this could be a ninth book @jk_rowling?


    https://x.com/elliot633297/status/1914057993320120364

    Parliament is actually sovereign. It’s kind of the point: Parliament writes the laws, Courts interpret them.

    If they want to issue a one line law that says the legal equivalent of “When interpreting the Equality Act 2010, trans women are defined to be women” they absolutely can.

    I don’t think this would be a very good idea - as the SC decision points out in detail it leads to a number of difficulties & potential contradictions in the Equality Act that might cause difficulties in the future - but Parliament can absolutely do so if it so chooses.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,185

    DM_Andy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Long delayed FPT

    Taz said:

    The battle may be won but the war.

    The ‘debate’ here yesterday was instructive. The people obsessed and commenting/sneering about toilets were predominantly pro trans men. Not those gender critical trying to protect women only spaces.

    I’m afraid I think you will end up losing. With all the problems in the world and in this country this clearly will be a big focus for many MPs.
    That's the issue, you use the terms battle and war. I don't think it should be a war. In my idea of the world everyone just gets on with their own lives, unhindered by anyone else and not hindering anyone else. That's a world where trans people go to public toilets to use the toilet, where trans people can access the medical and social support that they need. It's not a war, no-one need get harmed.

    But a group of evangelical Christians decided to make it into a war, those people wanted to punish transgender people due to a rather stretched reading of Genesis 1:27. They have a lot of money and if they succeed they will be after lesbians and gays next. They are already attacking same-sex marriage in the United States and it's sad to see some LGB people fall for these divide and rule tactics.

    I understand some of Cyclefree and Carlotta's points. I understand that there is some TRA overreach. They are both formed of fear of the other side. The Gender Critical people fear that somehow trans women will overwhelm woman, making them a sort of third class gender. Trans Rights Advocates fear any pushback because that might lead to trans people being erased from society. I still think that we can discuss things in a mature fashion.

    Puberty Blockers: The Cass Review in its initial report said that the evidence base for the safety of puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria. That was in March 2022, NHS England announced there would be a clinical review starting in 2024 which would last for 7 years, it still hasn't started, in fact they haven't even got approval yet and Sex Matters are lobbying for it never to happen. I hope that most people would agree that having clinical evidence about the best ways to help children with gender dysphoria is a good thing.

    Sport: I think there are some sports where trans women should be excluded from competitive events and even a couple where they should be excluded entirely. But not all sports. We need to look at each sport differently, ideally with scientific data. The scant information on running shows that trans women who have had 12 months or more of HRT are not advantaged against a cis woman. In swimming the scant evidence shows that transwomen retain an advantage because the lack of muscle mass does not compensate for the heavier frame and importantly in swimming wingspan and hand size. Chess and darts you would have to convince me there's any way trans women would have an advantage against cis women, but if there's any scientific data to support that, it would change my mind.

    Maybe I'm too kumbaya over this. But I would like it not to be a war and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
    I only used the term as a phrase I’m familiar with to mean they may have won this stage but it’s far from being all over.

    I, personally, have no skin in this game. I support GC feminists as an ally. Not actively. It’s their battle. We have plenty of people saying they are men so it’s not their battle and they then go on to mansplain feminism. I won’t do that. I’ll just support cyclefree and carlotta and other women from the sidelines.
    There are plenty of women who don't support GC feminists, all polls show that men are more hostile to trans rights then women are. For example YouGov December 2024 have 57% of men saying that trans women shouldn't use women's toilets and 53% of women. (interestingly it's very left-right too, 34% of Lib Dem voters say no, 83% of Reform voters say no). Feminists are split, I feel it's about 40/60 but that's just my gut feeling. I do have a reason to speak out because I've got friends who are affected and I want to defend my friends, that's a natural human reaction.
    I don't want any trans people to suffer. They should have changing rooms available to them.

    Which you think is entirely acceptable for you to suggest to people like Nurse Peggie as a solution while claiming you "don't want a war". So if you really don't want a war, why don't trans people get changed elsewhere like you suggest, and leave
    women to get changed in peace in their own changing room?
    He doesn't want a war he just wants people to surrender and not fight it
    I genuinely don't think that giving trans people the right to use the toilet corresponding to their gender identity is hurting anyone. I'm a libertarian, people should be allowed to go around doing what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you can show me harm then I'm happy to change my mind.
    The fear it can generate in others is harm
    To deliberately expose genitals in order to cause distress and alarm is already the offence of exposure.

    https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/types-of-sexual-violence/what-is-indecent-exposure-or-flashing/#:~:text=What is the legal definition,another person alarm or distress.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,928
    edited April 20


    Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧
    @montie
    ·
    8h
    I'm hearing this a lot. Many friends are reporting that Church attendance is growing - especiallly amongst men and in significant numbers

    https://x.com/montie/status/1913930243187834896

    Does he draw any inference from his unsupported anecdote?
    A source and a theory as to why would be interesting.
    But it isn't. Just the random burblings of an attention seeking hack bewildered by the utter chaos the Tories and Trump have caused implementing his ideology.
    If there is a God (spoiler no) he isn't on your team.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,354

    My mum just posited that the Labour MPs and activists plotting to undo the SC decision are an "Echo Chamber of Arseholes".

    I know the series is done, but is there *any* way this could be a ninth book @jk_rowling?


    https://x.com/elliot633297/status/1914057993320120364

    I wonder what these MPs trying to undermine the legal decision reaction to Boris playing fast and loose to legal decisions when it came to Brexit. I bet their tweets show some interesting receipts.
    Yeah, MPs in “want to change the law” shocker. It’s not like that’s their job or anything. Good grief.
    But do they want to change the law, or weasel their way around it?

    If they want to change the law that is their prerogative - but given it would ride roughshod over Labour's Equality Act they might find it tricky and face years of Human Rights litigation - for example, women from certain religious groups cannot get changed in front of men - do you want to exclude them from sports and the public sphere?

    The current law is now crystal clear - and the difficulties of trying to fudge it is quite possibly why Stonewall et al never campaigned openly for change, because of all the issues it would throw up.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,185


    Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧
    @montie
    ·
    8h
    I'm hearing this a lot. Many friends are reporting that Church attendance is growing - especiallly amongst men and in significant numbers

    https://x.com/montie/status/1913930243187834896

    Yes, numbers at my Church are slowly increasing, and of new attenders the majority are men.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,392
    edited April 20
    dixiedean said:


    Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧
    @montie
    ·
    8h
    I'm hearing this a lot. Many friends are reporting that Church attendance is growing - especiallly amongst men and in significant numbers

    https://x.com/montie/status/1913930243187834896

    Does he draw any inference from his unsupported anecdote?
    A source and a theory as to why would be interesting.
    But it isn't. Just the random burblings of an attention seeking hack bewildered by the utter chaos the Tories and Trump have caused implementing his ideology.
    If there is a God (spoiler no) he isn't on your team.
    I presume it is based upon this?

    A new report from The Bible Society suggests a resurgence of Christianity in the UK, driven primarily by young adults and particularly young men.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/bulletin/lifestyle/church-christianity-gen-z-easter-b2736265.html

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/church-christianity-gen-z-young-people-faith-god-easter-b2734957.html
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