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America elected the dotard Donald Trump, you’ll never guess what happened next –politicalbetting.com

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  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,098
    edited April 13
    Can we all agree that even the CPS think Manchester United are crap?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,511

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    And that's before we even start on Reform....
    Oh for sure. Reform will be just as bad

    As I said, this is not a partisan point. Government in ALL democracies now attracts mediocre idiots and utterly midbrow cranks. @IanB2 and @kinabalu in short. Pathetic retired accountants. People with only one friend, a dog. Sad people

    Donald Trump is an example from the Right

    It wasn’t always thus. I’m not sure what the solution is. Pay MPs a million quid a year?
    Gosh you are a boring and unpleasant old geezer.
    You appear to be new here.

    What are your hobbies? Do you have a dog?
    More importantly....

    1) Is pineapple on pizza an acceptable topping

    2) Are Radiohead a fantastic live band, especially when they play at Glastonbury

    3) Is Die Hard a Christmas film.
    4) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, where do you bury the survivors?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,971
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    David Cameron called a referendum on EU membership which he was by no means obliged to do. He was also passionately committed to UK membership of the EU, and he also told fellow EU members that there was “no way” he could lose

    He then lost that referendum, and had to resign. Outfoxed by Boris and Farage. And that is all he will be known for. Losing an unloseable plebiscite that changed British history in a way he desperately didn’t want

    And he’s your example of a gifted politician?

    Dave was only really in power during the coalition years. After that the nutters took over.
    What the fuck are you talking about? During the Coalition he was hampered. He got a MAJORITY in 2015. Then he called his referendum which, as he told Merkel, he could “never lose”

    Yes, it was quite paradoxical. Winning a majority meant Dave suddenly became beholden to the swivel-eyed brigade in the Tory party. Hitherto he could simply ignore them. All of our current woes stem from that weird quirk of fate.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,704
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    scampi25 said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Incredible!
    That anyone would take a random tweet posted by @williamglenn seriously?
    Er, there’s a video in the tweet. Everything @williamglenn says is true
    Except the policeman didn't say it.
    The definition of a hate crime in law depends on the victim's perception, so in effect he was saying that.
    Which statute are you referring to here? Not familiar with that.
    https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

    The police and the CPS have agreed the following definition for identifying and flagging hate crimes:

    "Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

    There is no legal definition of hostility so we use the everyday understanding of the word which includes ill-will, spite, contempt, prejudice, unfriendliness, antagonism, resentment and dislike.
    No - I asked for the statute. That’s not the offence. That is the CPS definition for reporting purposes, which is not the same thing, and the CPS isn’t the court. Please show me the Act with a link to legislation you’re referring to.

    I’ll help. It will probably either be the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 or the Public Order Act 1986. But I can’t see it in either of those. Funny that…
    Here you go. You just have to construe it as "insulting words" with the hate crime element an aggravating feature.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/4A
    Let me get this right. You are, unilaterally, inserting “insulting words” into section 4A? Is that correct?
    Err, no:

    A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—

    (a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

    (b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

    thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.
    Let me clarify. Apologies. In a rush to type I screwed that up and my point with it. The issue, and the reason you are wrong, is as follows -

    “ person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress…”

    So the offender has to have a mens rea. If there was no intent then there is no crime. The victim’s perception doesn’t come into it unless there was intent.
    So whose perception is it, then?

    Sweet Jesus the Stupidity on PB is incredible
    The perception and intent of the accused is just as important.

    Let's look at what Billy said -

    "The definition of a hate crime in law depends on the victim's perception, so in effect he was saying that." ("he" being the author of a Tweet that said "British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.")

    In my view, William was suggesting that simply saying "speak English", without intent, could be a hate crime based solely on the perception of complainant. I was saying that is not true. The definition of a crime under section 4A (the section he is relying on) is indeed partially, dependent on the perception of the victim, much like common assault, but the perception of the accused is just as important.

    Most criminal offenses require two elements. A mens rea (guilty mind) and an actus reus (guilty act).

    In this offence the accused has to have (1) intended to causes harassment (mens rea) and (2) actually causes harassment (actus reus) by using the type of language stated. If he didn't intend to cause distress, but did, then there is no offence. William was suggesting the opposite.

    The provision is similar to assault under the common law in that it requires a victim "to fear immediate unlawful violence". In both, the perception of the victim is only part of the actus reus in making out the offence (the other being the actual words used) and hat is not the whole offence, as William (in context) was suggesting.

    Further, the accused has a defence if what he was saying was "reasonable".

    So, as I say, it is the perception/intent of the accused that is key in making out the offence as much as the perception.

    I hope that helps.
    The discussion has got off track and you have talked yourself into a position of accusing the CPS of misinterpreting the law.

    The intitial point of contention was whether the policeman had said that saying "Speak English" was a hate crime which was disputed because he only said that it could be perceived as a hate crime. My point was that this amounts to the same thing because the test of whether or not something constitutes a hate crime (assuming that a crime has been committed) doesn't depend on the offender's intent.
    The CPS agree with me -

    "Section 4A carries a higher maximum than section 5. It requires the intention to cause harassment, alarm or distress to a specific victim. This can usually be proved where there is evidence of specific, directed abuse...

    However, it is important to remember that proving the defendant’s intent is not enough. There must also be evidence of somebody (which need not be the person targeted) suffering actual harassment, alarm or distress as a result. The evidence of this could come from that person themselves or it could come from another witness who can say that the person displayed signs of harassment, alarm or distress. As the effect on the victim is an essential element of the offence, prosecutors should not presume that it had that effect but should seek evidence which is capable of proving it."


    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/public-order-offences-incorporating-charging-standard

    The are entitled to use the definition you quoted for their internal flagging and reporting purposes, which is what they do in the extract you posted. It's also the case that there is no criminal offence of "hate crime" for there to be a definition of. The CPS categorise, for their own purposes, a number of crimes under that heading. Offenses can be racially aggravated etc. but that's not the same thing

    Just accept you're wrong, apologise, and we can move on.
    No, I won't apologise for being right. Admittedly I carry some of the blame for pointing you to the statue by which using words alone could constitute an offence, but that is a separate issue from the definition of a hate crime. In this both the legislation, and the CPS's interpretation is clear that intent doesn't matter, only whether the offender "demonstrates hostility" based on a protected characteristic.

    Why do you think the CPS state this explicitly if you think they agree with you?

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime
    I've already explained that to you. It's used for internal reporting purposes. See -

    The Police and the CPS don't get to define what a crime is. Only Parliament and the courts can do that. As the CPS themselves admit in the one paragraph you cling onto with such desperation the ",,, police and the CPS have agreed the following definition for identifying and flagging hate crimes...". Below is what "flagging" means -

    "Flagging is a subjective question. Flagging a case puts the CPS on notice that someone at some stage has perceived the incident that gave rise to the case had such an element of racial or religious hostility or prejudice to it. For a conviction to receive enhanced sentencing in court the police need to provide sufficient evidence to prove the hostility element, however this is not required for flagging purposes. Therefore, whilst not all flagged cases will result in specific racially or religiously aggravated charges or an application for an uplift of sentence under s.66 of the Sentencing Act 2020 [‘s.66 SA 2020’] (which applies to all convictions on or after 1st December 2020), they should still be flagged on CMS."

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance

    You also bafflingly say " In this both the legislation, and the CPS's interpretation...". What legislation uses this definition?

    Look, we are all wrong sometimes, accept it and you'll sleep easier. I'll pass on the apology even though it would be nice. But you have got this one wrong. I'm sure you're right about everything else.
    Let's start with the basics. What is a "hate crime"? This term is in colloquial and official use and refers to any crime where hostility based on a protected characteristic is an aggravating factor, based on the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. This states:

    An offence is racially or religiously aggravated for the purposes of sections 29 to 32 below if—

    (a)at the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates towards the victim of the offence hostility based on the victim’s membership (or presumed membership) of a racial or religious group; or

    (b)the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership of that group.


    I.e. even if someone was not consciously being racist or sexist or whatever, it doesn't matter if their behaviour was deemed to be such. That is why the CPS prioritise the perception of the victim, not only for internal reporting purposes but for deciding how to prosecute.

    The Public Order Act 1986 is only relevant to the extent that it determines that using insulting language alone can constitute a crime, and whether or not this crime is also a hate crime does not depend on the offender's intent. It is not a defence to say that their insult was not intended to be racist, only that it wasn't intended to be an insult at all.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,288

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Didn't Osborne forsee that no good would come of the 2016 referendum?

    Though building a majority in 2015 by defeating their coalition partners was the sort of victory that the ghost of King Pyrrhus might have warned Dave and George about.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,288
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    Without knowing the IQ of the person doing the estimates, how can you take it seriously?

    Unless... oh my God... it plays into your existing prejudices, and therefore must be believed and shared.
    Be fair, there's a Bar Chart and error bars and everything.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,203
    Tonking on the toon for Man U
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,650

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    And that's before we even start on Reform....
    Oh for sure. Reform will be just as bad

    As I said, this is not a partisan point. Government in ALL democracies now attracts mediocre idiots and utterly midbrow cranks. @IanB2 and @kinabalu in short. Pathetic retired accountants. People with only one friend, a dog. Sad people

    Donald Trump is an example from the Right

    It wasn’t always thus. I’m not sure what the solution is. Pay MPs a million quid a year?
    Gosh you are a boring and unpleasant old geezer.
    You appear to be new here.

    What are your hobbies? Do you have a dog?
    Sometimes one is struck anew by the familiar. It's a known phenomenon. There's probably a name for it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,704
    edited April 13
    One final remark to @DougSeal: before editing your post, you literally accused me of "unilaterally, inserting “insulting words” into section 4A", so if anyone is owed an apology it is me.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,426

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Didn't Osborne forsee that no good would come of the 2016 referendum?

    Though building a majority in 2015 by defeating their coalition partners was the sort of victory that the ghost of King Pyrrhus might have warned Dave and George about.
    The alternative to the Referendum would have been a UKIP/Reform government by now.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,347


    Spencer Hakimian
    @SpencerHakimian
    Since *Wednesday*:

    We have had:

    - Universal “reciprocal tariffs”
    - A removal back down to 10%
    - 50% Chinese tariffs
    - 90% Chinese tariffs
    - 104% Chinese tariffs
    - 125% Chinese tariffs
    - 145% Chinese tariffs
    - Electronics exempted
    - Electronics now potentially back on.

    If you were a CFO of a Fortune 500 company, would you approve any new investment in a country this unstable?

    Answer honestly.

    https://x.com/SpencerHakimian/status/1911442866259230877

    Quite possibly the least competent government of a major country in living memory. Clowns in every senior position.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,098

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Didn't Osborne forsee that no good would come of the 2016 referendum?

    Though building a majority in 2015 by defeating their coalition partners was the sort of victory that the ghost of King Pyrrhus might have warned Dave and George about.
    The alternative to the Referendum would have been a UKIP/Reform government by now.
    Nah I disagree. The frothers would just be frothing as they still are
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,426
    Pulpstar said:

    Tonking on the toon for Man U

    My business colleague is already gloating. Thank God Arsenal only got a draw - or it would have been unbearable from them...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,426

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Didn't Osborne forsee that no good would come of the 2016 referendum?

    Though building a majority in 2015 by defeating their coalition partners was the sort of victory that the ghost of King Pyrrhus might have warned Dave and George about.
    The alternative to the Referendum would have been a UKIP/Reform government by now.
    Nah I disagree. The frothers would just be frothing as they still are
    Nah I disagree. The discontent with the other parties of Government over the past decade would have concertina-d by now to Farage's benefit. The EU would have been blamed for all our ills.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,566
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    Without knowing the IQ of the person doing the estimates, how can you take it seriously?

    Unless... oh my God... it plays into your existing prejudices, and therefore must be believed and shared.
    Or you could read the underlying scientific study?

    http://perseus.iies.su.se/~tpers/papers/Draft170103.pdf
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,451

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Didn't Osborne forsee that no good would come of the 2016 referendum?

    Though building a majority in 2015 by defeating their coalition partners was the sort of victory that the ghost of King Pyrrhus might have warned Dave and George about.
    The alternative to the Referendum would have been a UKIP/Reform government by now.
    Nah I disagree. The frothers would just be frothing as they still are
    Nah I disagree. The discontent with the other parties of Government over the past decade would have concertina-d by now to Farage's benefit. The EU would have been blamed for all our ills.
    What did for Ed Miliband was a boatload (ahem) of UKIP 2nd place finishers in the north, taking votes that would never go Conservative but could let the blues in through the middle.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,183
    Oscar Piastri really is the complete opposite of the Australian stereotype isn't he?
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,417
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    scampi25 said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Incredible!
    That anyone would take a random tweet posted by @williamglenn seriously?
    Er, there’s a video in the tweet. Everything @williamglenn says is true
    Except the policeman didn't say it.
    The definition of a hate crime in law depends on the victim's perception, so in effect he was saying that.
    Which statute are you referring to here? Not familiar with that.
    https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

    The police and the CPS have agreed the following definition for identifying and flagging hate crimes:

    "Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

    There is no legal definition of hostility so we use the everyday understanding of the word which includes ill-will, spite, contempt, prejudice, unfriendliness, antagonism, resentment and dislike.
    No - I asked for the statute. That’s not the offence. That is the CPS definition for reporting purposes, which is not the same thing, and the CPS isn’t the court. Please show me the Act with a link to legislation you’re referring to.

    I’ll help. It will probably either be the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 or the Public Order Act 1986. But I can’t see it in either of those. Funny that…
    Here you go. You just have to construe it as "insulting words" with the hate crime element an aggravating feature.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/4A
    Let me get this right. You are, unilaterally, inserting “insulting words” into section 4A? Is that correct?
    Err, no:

    A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—

    (a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

    (b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

    thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.
    Let me clarify. Apologies. In a rush to type I screwed that up and my point with it. The issue, and the reason you are wrong, is as follows -

    “ person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress…”

    So the offender has to have a mens rea. If there was no intent then there is no crime. The victim’s perception doesn’t come into it unless there was intent.
    So whose perception is it, then?

    Sweet Jesus the Stupidity on PB is incredible
    The perception and intent of the accused is just as important.

    Let's look at what Billy said -

    "The definition of a hate crime in law depends on the victim's perception, so in effect he was saying that." ("he" being the author of a Tweet that said "British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.")

    In my view, William was suggesting that simply saying "speak English", without intent, could be a hate crime based solely on the perception of complainant. I was saying that is not true. The definition of a crime under section 4A (the section he is relying on) is indeed partially, dependent on the perception of the victim, much like common assault, but the perception of the accused is just as important.

    Most criminal offenses require two elements. A mens rea (guilty mind) and an actus reus (guilty act).

    In this offence the accused has to have (1) intended to causes harassment (mens rea) and (2) actually causes harassment (actus reus) by using the type of language stated. If he didn't intend to cause distress, but did, then there is no offence. William was suggesting the opposite.

    The provision is similar to assault under the common law in that it requires a victim "to fear immediate unlawful violence". In both, the perception of the victim is only part of the actus reus in making out the offence (the other being the actual words used) and hat is not the whole offence, as William (in context) was suggesting.

    Further, the accused has a defence if what he was saying was "reasonable".

    So, as I say, it is the perception/intent of the accused that is key in making out the offence as much as the perception.

    I hope that helps.
    The discussion has got off track and you have talked yourself into a position of accusing the CPS of misinterpreting the law.

    The intitial point of contention was whether the policeman had said that saying "Speak English" was a hate crime which was disputed because he only said that it could be perceived as a hate crime. My point was that this amounts to the same thing because the test of whether or not something constitutes a hate crime (assuming that a crime has been committed) doesn't depend on the offender's intent.
    The CPS agree with me -

    "Section 4A carries a higher maximum than section 5. It requires the intention to cause harassment, alarm or distress to a specific victim. This can usually be proved where there is evidence of specific, directed abuse...

    However, it is important to remember that proving the defendant’s intent is not enough. There must also be evidence of somebody (which need not be the person targeted) suffering actual harassment, alarm or distress as a result. The evidence of this could come from that person themselves or it could come from another witness who can say that the person displayed signs of harassment, alarm or distress. As the effect on the victim is an essential element of the offence, prosecutors should not presume that it had that effect but should seek evidence which is capable of proving it."


    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/public-order-offences-incorporating-charging-standard

    The are entitled to use the definition you quoted for their internal flagging and reporting purposes, which is what they do in the extract you posted. It's also the case that there is no criminal offence of "hate crime" for there to be a definition of. The CPS categorise, for their own purposes, a number of crimes under that heading. Offenses can be racially aggravated etc. but that's not the same thing

    Just accept you're wrong, apologise, and we can move on.
    ‘Apologise’ 😂😂😂😂
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,417

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Absolutely. A referendum few demanded or wanted. It was an internal,Tory party management problem nothing else.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 828

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Didn't Osborne forsee that no good would come of the 2016 referendum?

    Though building a majority in 2015 by defeating their coalition partners was the sort of victory that the ghost of King Pyrrhus might have warned Dave and George about.
    The alternative to the Referendum would have been a UKIP/Reform government by now.
    Nah I disagree. The frothers would just be frothing as they still are
    Nah I disagree. The discontent with the other parties of Government over the past decade would have concertina-d by now to Farage's benefit. The EU would have been blamed for all our ills.
    Nah I disagree. People are perennially dissatisfied with the two major parties and whatever vehicle Farage is leading would still be as inept and off-putting to a majority of the electorate. Dissatisfaction with the EU is like mid term polling blues for the governing party. It only matters if you call an election.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,388
    CatMan said:

    Oscar Piastri really is the complete opposite of the Australian stereotype isn't he?

    this is the quintessential Australian..........

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=castlemaine+4x+sherry+advert#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9403607a,vid:pmfP3B45rIg,st:0
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,426
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Absolutely. A referendum few demanded or wanted. It was an internal,Tory party management problem nothing else.
    "few demanded or wanted" = the biggest vote by the UK population. Ever.

    Still demonstrating the arrogance - compounded by Cameron before the campaign with his ill-conceived triumph of a "renegotiation" and by his disaster of "you're all ungrateful bastards" campaign - that caused the result.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,451
    CatMan said:

    Oscar Piastri really is the complete opposite of the Australian stereotype isn't he?

    Quite a few have said he's like a slightly more cheerful Kimi Raikkonen.

    Very cool head on his shoulders.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,693

    ELECTRONIC PRODUCTS WILL COME UNDER SEMICONDUCTORS SECTION AND WILL HAVE SPECIAL TARIFFS COMING SOON -LUTNICK

    https://x.com/DeItaone/status/1911407401221104076

    Is this reliable source? As if true, back on the market rollercoaster.

    They must have got their shorts back on over the weekend
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,136

    UK Monthly Polling Tracker (March):

    LAB: 25.0% (+0.1)
    REF: 24.5% (-1.6)
    CON: 22.4% (+0.6)
    LDM: 13.2% (+0.3)
    GRN: 8.5% (+0.3)
    SNP: 2.6% (=)

    LAB lead REF by 0.5pp (+1.7)

    (Changes with Feb)

    https://x.com/OprosUK/status/1911453224785133862

    Polls to 1 decimal place is spurious accuracy
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,077
    a
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Absolutely. A referendum few demanded or wanted. It was an internal,Tory party management problem nothing else.
    More and more people were demanding a referendum.

    The approach of denying one until the result was in doubt was a disaster. See the comic Lib Dem demand (at the start of the coalition) that they could only support a referendum if a Remain vote was taken as yes to the euro and removing all British opt outs.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,954

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    ... like a hole in the head.

    "I've looked at the numbers... we probably need a DOGE for every single county council in England"

    Reform UK leader Nigel Farage says he does "accept that it's been very tough for county councils"

    https://x.com/BBCPolitics/status/1911353690436280536

    The Trump love is still strong with this arsehole.

    It's a tricky position he's in.

    The "cutting woke waste" fairy is the only way anyone has of resolving the high tax/poor services dilemma that everyone is struggling with.

    Once you have a Union Flag flying outside County Hall and rejigged planning policy so that Ed Milliband can overturn your solar farm refusals, what is the distinctively Reform way of running the county council?
    It becomes less of a fairy if the party highlighting it have done their homework, which it appears Reform have.

    Have any of the other parties who stand to gain councillors not lose them (Lib Dems, Greens) been looking into potential savings and bothered their arses doing FOI requests to identify waste?
    Where I disagree with Reform, and I’ve discussed this with some of their candidates, is they would ‘audit’ spend.

    Who would do the audit ? They cannot say how it would be carried out and if they could get any money back.

    I suspect all that would happen would be the auditors would make some money and the council tax payer would pay for it and we won’t get a penny back. Like Labours pathetic PPE audit which I doubt will yield anything for the taxpayer.
    At an abstract level, there is definitely scope for auditing in local government.

    The various council financial collapses indicate that there are orders of magnitude more that are just on the edge.

    The real problem is the complete disconnection between revenue sources, service provision and obligations.
    Local councils are already audited, under the Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014, I believe.
    Which entirely missed the insane mismanagement of places such as Woking.
    Blame Eric Pickles, for whom a special circle in hell is reserved for crimes against local government.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/eric-pickles-to-disband-audit-commission-in-new-era-of-town-hall-transparency
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Absolutely. A referendum few demanded or wanted. It was an internal,Tory party management problem nothing else.
    "few demanded or wanted" = the biggest vote by the UK population. Ever.

    Still demonstrating the arrogance - compounded by Cameron before the campaign with his ill-conceived triumph of a "renegotiation" and by his disaster of "you're all ungrateful bastards" campaign - that caused the result.
    I don't regret the referendum or its result.

    I do regret the failure to build a strong, new relationship with Europe.

    Fortunately, Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump seem determined to ensure that we'll get on better in future.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,136
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    scampi25 said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Incredible!
    A policeman somewhat off the rails there, and wasting his own time.

    Somewhere in a 1920s London commuter suburb, I'd say - from the architecture.
    Out of interest, what organization does the 'Let's Make Britain Great Again' slogan on the guy's shirt relate to?
    The video is watermarked "Turning Point UK", maybe it's them ? The kind of stuff William's Twitter feed is full of, anyway
    From Wikipedia:

    Turning Point UK (TPUK) is a British offshoot of the American student pressure group Turning Point USA.[1] The UK group was set up to promote right-wing politics in UK schools, colleges and universities, with the stated aim of countering what Turning Point UK alleges are the left-wing politics of UK educational institutions.[2] The close similarity of Turning Point UK's rhetoric and target demographic to that of Generation Identity, a continental European group with racist and Islamophobic intentions, has been noted by scholars of hate studies and the far-right.[3]

    Turning Point UK describes its objectives as promoting "the values of free markets, limited government and personal responsibility". It says it does this to counter what it alleges is "a dogmatic left-wing political climate, education system and radical Labour Party" which, Turning Point UK states, "sympathises with terrorists [and] wishes to disarm the nation".[4]

    The group was launched in December 2018[5] by Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point USA, and Candace Owens, then the communications director of the US group,[6] at the Royal Automobile Club in London.[5] On the day of its social media launch in February 2019, some Conservative MPs including Jacob Rees-Mogg and Priti Patel tweeted supportive messages for the group.[7][8] Labour MP David Lammy stated that the launch and its Tory support were evidence that the Conservative Party "openly promotes hard-right, xenophobic bile".[9] From its inception, the organisation and its leading members were the subject of widespread popular ridicule. It was described by the BBC as "a tsunami of online mockery".[10][11]
    “From Wikipedia”

    I know Jimmy Wales. No joke. I do (it’s a long story, he lives in the UK)

    He laments that it has been hijacked by a cabal of left wing editors who have turned it into a pathetic shadow of what it was. Almost any contentious political/religious topic is now a biased screed of Woke gibberish, rigorously fenced off from more sensible editing

    Sad. Enshittification of Wiki can be added to the many other Enshittifications
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irritable_male_syndrome#Relation_to_humans
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-onset_hypogonadism
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,417
    edited April 13

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Absolutely. A referendum few demanded or wanted. It was an internal,Tory party management problem nothing else.
    "few demanded or wanted" = the biggest vote by the UK population. Ever.

    Still demonstrating the arrogance - compounded by Cameron before the campaign with his ill-conceived triumph of a "renegotiation" and by his disaster of "you're all ungrateful bastards" campaign - that caused the result.
    I maintain that it was not a major issue for people prior to the confirmation of the referendum, once confirmed it took on a life of its own, but prior to the 2015 election precious few people saw the E.U. and our relationship with it as an issue.

    Oh,and I don’t disagree about Cameron and the remain campaign. Poor.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 828

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    We already have a term. We are ruled by Oxbridge graduates.

    Quite so

    The utter mediocrity of David Cameron and Geo Osborne is quite the case study, of this
    Odd that you should single out Dave and George. Their regime - during which the greatest political controversy concerned extending VAT to pasties - seems a relative golden age compared to that which Oxford graduates Boris, Liz and Rishi were soon to unleash.
    I disagree. Cameron and Osborne unleashed it all with a very ill-conceived EU Referendum. Everything since springs from that; it's on them.
    Absolutely. A referendum few demanded or wanted. It was an internal,Tory party management problem nothing else.
    "few demanded or wanted" = the biggest vote by the UK population. Ever.

    Still demonstrating the arrogance - compounded by Cameron before the campaign with his ill-conceived triumph of a "renegotiation" and by his disaster of "you're all ungrateful bastards" campaign - that caused the result.
    Just because people voted for it doesn't mean they wanted it. Capital punishment would probably be reinstated if put to a referendum but very few are really agitating for such a vote.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476
    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,032
    One-minute video from Clarkson and May on the speed of development in China
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6uYqrS5rGuM
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476
    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    Without knowing the IQ of the person doing the estimates, how can you take it seriously?

    Unless... oh my God... it plays into your existing prejudices, and therefore must be believed and shared.
    Or you could read the underlying scientific study?

    http://perseus.iies.su.se/~tpers/papers/Draft170103.pdf
    I asked ChatGPT to summarize it, and it gave a rather different spin to you:

    The authors argue that Sweden demonstrates an "inclusive meritocracy" in political selection. That means:

    1. Politicians are more competent (smarter, better leaders, higher-earning) than the general population.


    2. This competence holds even when controlling for family background, suggesting personal traits, not just social privilege, matter.


    3. Politicians come from a socially broad background—parental income and class are fairly evenly represented.


    4. There’s little tradeoff between competence and social representation, largely because politicians from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are even more positively selected (i.e., “cream of their crop”).


    5. Party processes and intrinsic motivation, alongside decent salaries for top roles, help attract competent individuals from all classes.



    Their punchline? Democracy can deliver both competence and fair representation—at least in Sweden.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,288
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,704
    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    "I accurately reposted the content of a tweet."

    Ah, the old "I didn't really accuse Lord McAlpine of being a paedophile" excuse.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,007

    Can we all agree that even the CPS think Manchester United are crap?

    They are but don't take anything away from Newcastle who are in fine form
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,956
    One of the people killed by Putin's missile attack on Sumy.

    https://x.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1911466541788659874
  • TresTres Posts: 2,808

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,007
    Half an hour to McIlroy teeing off in his bid to win the Masters

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,704
    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,808

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    why do you constantly play dumb?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    So you posted the content of a tweet, but couldn't be arsed to watch the very short video yourself to see that it was a lie.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,856
    Trump will be opening more US consumers buy US goods and US production increases to offset the rise in the cost of imported goods
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,693

    But appearing on Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg, Farage said: “The real point here is both sides have to make concessions. I’m not going to say what I think should be in those concessions. Clearly, at the heart of it is Crimea.”

    Asked whether Ukraine “should be willing to compromise on Crimea”, Farage replied: “That’s at the heart of it.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/farage-accused-of-parroting-putin-for-suggesting-ukraine-give-up-crimea-for-peace_uk_67fbc738e4b06646ea60a8b8

    I don’t usually stick up for Farage (and haven’t seen the interview).

    But if there was a deal on the table which involved recognising the unlawful annexation of Crimea, but Ukraine getting everything else back they should think hard about accepting it
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Really?

    I hate several people.

    Mostly people who slighted me in some minor, probably accidental, way. That I have blown up out of all proportion in my mind.

    Still, it keeps me busy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,856

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    Indeed, IQs of 115 are still well above average just not very high intelligence level.

    If having the highest IQ was the best predictor of being a good political leader the likes of Gordon Brown, Hillary Clinton and Richard Nixon would be the best which is clearly not the case.

    An above average IQ leader with top 5% IQ advisers around them is probably best
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Do you read your own posts?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,704
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    So you posted the content of a tweet, but couldn't be arsed to watch the very short video yourself to see that it was a lie.
    I wouldn't call it a lie. The policeman was trying to phrase it in a non-confrontational way but the implication was clear.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227
    HYUFD said:

    Trump will be opening more US consumers buy US goods and US production increases to offset the rise in the cost of imported goods

    I really hope Trump won't need you open any US consumers. Even the current Supreme Court would probably take issue with that.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,856
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Trump will be opening more US consumers buy US goods and US production increases to offset the rise in the cost of imported goods

    I really hope Trump won't need you open any US consumers. Even the current Supreme Court would probably take issue with that.
    Sorry, meant 'hoping more US consumers'
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,451
    F1: still no word on Russell's penalty/clearance.

    Anyway, this kind of nonsense is why I settled on Tuesdays for the podcast.

    I'm off for the evening. Have a pleasant evening, everyone.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    So you posted the content of a tweet, but couldn't be arsed to watch the very short video yourself to see that it was a lie.
    I wouldn't call it a lie. The policeman was trying to phrase it in a non-confrontational way but the implication was clear.
    How was it not a lie. You said something that wasn't true.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,777
    Another bonkers comment on UTuub:
    "Elon is uncovering all the fraud and corruption, trying to save the US government from bankruptcy and now you hate him for it."

    As I keep pointing out, do Americans really think the European boycott of Tesla is because of DOGE?

    They literally cannot comprehend that domestic US politics do not matter outside the US.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476
    edited April 13
    rcs1000 said:

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Really?

    I hate several people.

    Mostly people who slighted me in some minor, probably accidental, way. That I have blown up out of all proportion in my mind.

    Still, it keeps me busy.
    Remind me not to get on the wrong side of you. Do you own any weapons?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,566
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    It says successful Swedish politicians have an IQ around 105-115, so basically the same as you

    QED
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 828

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    So you posted the content of a tweet, but couldn't be arsed to watch the very short video yourself to see that it was a lie.
    I wouldn't call it a lie. The policeman was trying to phrase it in a non-confrontational way but the implication was clear.
    I've long had an animus for police language. I hate that they seem incapable of saying "The man walked to Londis" but have to say 'The individual proceeded in the direction of an off-licence". Would you be so annoyed if the policeman had said "Watch your tone Sir" instead?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    It says successful Swedish politicians have an IQ around 105-115, so basically the same as you

    QED
    You will go to your grave, hopefully many decades from now, not having a clue.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,777
    Having watched the video in question and skimmed some of the comments row, I think the summary is:
    Tweet seized upon to show WOKE being evil
    Video doesn't show what is depicted
    WOKE is EVIL I said
    Apologise
    No YOU apologise

    etc

    Perhaps, and I know its possibly controversial, don't try to take things waaaay out of context to PROVE that woke is EVIL. If its so OBVIOUSLY EVIL as certain people insist, everyone else would see it. But normal people don't. The majority. The large majority.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,288
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Trump will be opening more US consumers buy US goods and US production increases to offset the rise in the cost of imported goods

    I really hope Trump won't need you open any US consumers. Even the current Supreme Court would probably take issue with that.
    Sorry, meant 'hoping more US consumers'
    I wondered if it was something RFK has planned, getting rid of the closed shop for surgeons.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,426
    rcs1000 said:

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Really?

    I hate several people.

    Mostly people who slighted me in some minor, probably accidental, way. That I have blown up out of all proportion in my mind.

    Still, it keeps me busy.
    There are a billion people who hate Radiohead to keep you busy...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,704
    Stereodog said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    So you posted the content of a tweet, but couldn't be arsed to watch the very short video yourself to see that it was a lie.
    I wouldn't call it a lie. The policeman was trying to phrase it in a non-confrontational way but the implication was clear.
    I've long had an animus for police language. I hate that they seem incapable of saying "The man walked to Londis" but have to say 'The individual proceeded in the direction of an off-licence". Would you be so annoyed if the policeman had said "Watch your tone Sir" instead?
    Quite. It would be preferable for him to exercise his own authority to maintain order rather than invoke some sinister legalese.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,035
    @FrankLuntz

    “America would be better off if more people worked in manufacturing.”

    • 80% of Americans agree
    • 20% disagree

    “I would be better off if I worked in a factory.”

    • 25% of Americans agree
    • 73% disagree
    • 2% currently work in a factory

    https://x.com/FrankLuntz/status/1911463710029488317
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,566
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    It says successful Swedish politicians have an IQ around 105-115, so basically the same as you

    QED
    You will go to your grave, hopefully many decades from now, not having a clue.
    What we are experiencing - both of us - is “clarience”, or “irritelligence” - ie the psychological and rhetorical dissonance experienced when a highly intelligent individual (IQ 135+) is unable to engage meaningfully with someone of modestly above-average intelligence (IQ 105+), due to an invisible mismatch in assumptions, reasoning patterns, or linguistic nuance - despite surface-level agreement on vocabulary and syntax

    That is to say: we apparently speak the same language, you and I, but we will never truly comprehend each other

    And that’s fine! PB is a wonderful landscaped space, a curated Stourhead of minds - eagerly weeded by @TSE and @rcs1000 - and variety is the Glory of the Garden. We can both flourish on our different levels
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,077
    edited April 13
    Stereodog said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    My husband is ethnically Chinese (although born on British soil) and during COVID he had to put up with constant unpleasant muttering, mainly from miserable old bastards who were behind him in a queue and missed out on the last pack of loo roll. If there'd been a policeman there I would have liked them to say something. Being a fan of English rather than British I would have preferred said policeman to tell the mutterer to act their age and shut up rather than 'some people may potentially consider that a hate crime' or whatever.
    That whole “somebody (not me)” sounds like one of those threats from HR.

    In fact, anyone using that kind of bullshit “warning” is committing a hate crime, as far as I am concerned.

    What’s wrong with - “Stop being a rude idiot, Sir. If you want to be a big man in a small place, fuck off up the Model Village.”
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,077

    rcs1000 said:

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Really?

    I hate several people.

    Mostly people who slighted me in some minor, probably accidental, way. That I have blown up out of all proportion in my mind.

    Still, it keeps me busy.
    There are a billion people who hate Radiohead to keep you busy...
    Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering internet commenter; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool! and since neither can be mine, let me then tow to pieces, while still chasing thee, though tied to thee, thou damned commenter!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,856
    Scott_xP said:

    @FrankLuntz

    “America would be better off if more people worked in manufacturing.”

    • 80% of Americans agree
    • 20% disagree

    “I would be better off if I worked in a factory.”

    • 25% of Americans agree
    • 73% disagree
    • 2% currently work in a factory

    https://x.com/FrankLuntz/status/1911463710029488317

    So an extra 23% of Americans would prefer to work in a factory than now do
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,077
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    It says successful Swedish politicians have an IQ around 105-115, so basically the same as you

    QED
    You will go to your grave, hopefully many decades from now, not having a clue.
    What we are experiencing - both of us - is “clarience”, or “irritelligence” - ie the psychological and rhetorical dissonance experienced when a highly intelligent individual (IQ 135+) is unable to engage meaningfully with someone of modestly above-average intelligence (IQ 105+), due to an invisible mismatch in assumptions, reasoning patterns, or linguistic nuance - despite surface-level agreement on vocabulary and syntax

    That is to say: we apparently speak the same language, you and I, but we will never truly comprehend each other

    And that’s fine! PB is a wonderful landscaped space, a curated Stourhead of minds - eagerly weeded by @TSE and @rcs1000 - and variety is the Glory of the Garden. We can both flourish on our different levels
    Who is the high intelligence individual trying to communicate with you? Is it @rcs1000 ?
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 828

    Stereodog said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    My husband is ethnically Chinese (although born on British soil) and during COVID he had to put up with constant unpleasant muttering, mainly from miserable old bastards who were behind him in a queue and missed out on the last pack of loo roll. If there'd been a policeman there I would have liked them to say something. Being a fan of English rather than British I would have preferred said policeman to tell the mutterer to act their age and shut up rather than 'some people may potentially consider that a hate crime' or whatever.
    That whole “somebody (not me)” sounds like one of those threats from HR.

    In fact, anyone using that kind of bullshit “warning” is committing a hate crime, as far as I am concerned.

    What’s wrong with - “Stop being a rude idiot, Sir. If you want to be a big man in a small place, fuck off to the Model Village.”
    Yes that was the point I was trying to make. I fully support the police intervening to tell people to stop being rude aresholes. I don't approve of doing it bureaucratease.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,856
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    It says successful Swedish politicians have an IQ around 105-115, so basically the same as you

    QED
    The 2 greatest IQ Presidents of the last 100 years were FDR who got a C grade average from Harvard and Reagan who was likely about average intelligence and got average grades at Eureka College.

    The highest IQ President was probably Nixon, perhaps followed by Bill Clinton. The first is often considered a crook and one of the worst presidents (albeit with some foreign policy success) and Clinton while above average was impeached.



  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,819
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @FrankLuntz

    “America would be better off if more people worked in manufacturing.”

    • 80% of Americans agree
    • 20% disagree

    “I would be better off if I worked in a factory.”

    • 25% of Americans agree
    • 73% disagree
    • 2% currently work in a factory

    https://x.com/FrankLuntz/status/1911463710029488317

    So an extra 23% of Americans would prefer to work in a factory than now do
    The answers make logical sense. 25% of people surveyed are probably either in lower paid jobs than factory workers, or not in work. 73% are presumably either in higher paid jobs than factory workers, or think they are.

    When pollsters ask questions “thinking about your own position” they tend to get quite honest representative answers. Whereas
    when they ask politically loaded questions about principles they get politically loaded opinions in return.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,077
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @FrankLuntz

    “America would be better off if more people worked in manufacturing.”

    • 80% of Americans agree
    • 20% disagree

    “I would be better off if I worked in a factory.”

    • 25% of Americans agree
    • 73% disagree
    • 2% currently work in a factory

    https://x.com/FrankLuntz/status/1911463710029488317

    So an extra 23% of Americans would prefer to work in a factory than now do
    In many parts of America, working for a high end brand in an assembly line factory is a relatively well paid job, with security, excellent pension benefits, medical (vital in the US).

    When you compare it to some of the lower end shitty stuff…
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227
    rcs1000 said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    "I accurately reposted the content of a tweet."

    Ah, the old "I didn't really accuse Lord McAlpine of being a paedophile" excuse.
    You know, I thought that was a really shit hot response, and yet you lot didn't appreciate it

    I'd be better off conversing with ChatGPT.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,077
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    "I accurately reposted the content of a tweet."

    Ah, the old "I didn't really accuse Lord McAlpine of being a paedophile" excuse.
    You know, I thought that was a really shit hot response, and yet you lot didn't appreciate it

    I'd be better off conversing with ChatGPT.
    Most of the responses I could think of would have given @TSE the vapours. On legal grounds.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 828
    edited April 13
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    It says successful Swedish politicians have an IQ around 105-115, so basically the same as you

    QED
    The 2 greatest IQ Presidents of the last 100 years were FDR who got a C grade average from Harvard and Reagan who was likely about average intelligence and got average grades at Eureka College.

    The highest IQ President was probably Nixon, perhaps followed by Bill Clinton. The first is often considered a crook and one of the worst presidents (albeit with some foreign policy success) and Clinton while above average was impeached.

    On a point of order he wasn't impeached. The articles of impeachment were rejected.

    Edit: Apologies. I was wrong there.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,347
    It looks like electronics from China will still be subject to a 20% tariff.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,819
    edited April 13
    I don’t think I’ve ever done an IQ test, they’re the kind of thing I thought only crossword geeks or people who take puzzle books on holiday with them do, but they seem to have become a bizarre new obsession of parts of the internet and MAGA, presumably because of some sort of online racial eugenics revival.

    I have never been a fan of the likes of Sudoku, chess or cryptic crosswords so at a guess I’d say my IQ is around average or a bit below, but I don’t think that says much about my ability to hold down a decent job competently.
  • kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    Alternatively Leon is an example of someone with a very high IQ, but the conclusion would be the same: thank god he's spending his sober waking hours trying on edgy political opinions for kicks on an obscure forum rather than holding the reins of power.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227

    rcs1000 said:

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Really?

    I hate several people.

    Mostly people who slighted me in some minor, probably accidental, way. That I have blown up out of all proportion in my mind.

    Still, it keeps me busy.
    There are a billion people who hate Radiohead to keep you busy...
    No no no.

    There are people who love and appreciate Radiohead.

    And there are people who just haven't listened to enough Radiohead yet
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,856

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @FrankLuntz

    “America would be better off if more people worked in manufacturing.”

    • 80% of Americans agree
    • 20% disagree

    “I would be better off if I worked in a factory.”

    • 25% of Americans agree
    • 73% disagree
    • 2% currently work in a factory

    https://x.com/FrankLuntz/status/1911463710029488317

    So an extra 23% of Americans would prefer to work in a factory than now do
    In many parts of America, working for a high end brand in an assembly line factory is a relatively well paid job, with security, excellent pension benefits, medical (vital in the US).

    When you compare it to some of the lower end shitty stuff…
    Outside of New York, Seattle, Massachusetts and California and DC yes certainly
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,035
    rcs1000 said:

    No no no.

    There are people who love and appreciate Radiohead.

    And there are people who just haven't listened to enough Radiohead yet

    There are obviously people who have listened to WAAAYYYYYYYYY too much Radiohead
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,856
    Stereodog said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    It says successful Swedish politicians have an IQ around 105-115, so basically the same as you

    QED
    The greatest Presidents of the last 100 years were FDR who got a C grade average from Harvard and Reagan who was likely about average intelligence and got average grades at Eureka College.

    The highest IQ President was probably Nixon, perhaps followed by Bill Clinton. The first is often considered a crook and one of the worst presidents (albeit with some foreign policy success) and Clinton while above average was impeached.

    On a point of order he wasn't impeached. The articles of impeachment were rejected.

    Edit: Apologies. I was wrong there.
    My first sentence should also just read 'The greatest Presidents of...'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,437
    .
    Stereodog said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    My husband is ethnically Chinese (although born on British soil) and during COVID he had to put up with constant unpleasant muttering, mainly from miserable old bastards who were behind him in a queue and missed out on the last pack of loo roll. If there'd been a policeman there I would have liked them to say something. Being a fan of English rather than British I would have preferred said policeman to tell the mutterer to act their age and shut up rather than 'some people may potentially consider that a hate crime' or whatever.
    The chances of that approach working with Leon are pretty slim.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,035
    Xi has Donny's nuts in a vice. Now for the squeeze...

    @nytimes.com‬

    China has suspended exports of rare earth minerals and magnets crucial to the world’s automakers, aerospace manufacturers and military contractors. The crackdown is part of the country’s retaliation for President Trump’s sharp increase in tariffs.

    https://bsky.app/profile/nytimes.com/post/3lmpp24s7kk26
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,076
    TimS said:

    I don’t think I’ve ever done an IQ test, they’re the kind of thing I thought only crossword geeks or people who take puzzle books on holiday with them do, but they seem to have become a bizarre new obsession of parts of the internet and MAGA, presumably because of some sort of online racial eugenics revival.

    I have never been a fan of the likes of Sudoku, chess or cryptic crosswords so at a guess I’d assume my IQ is around average or a bit below, but I don’t think that says much about my ability to hold down a decent job competently.

    I did a compulsory test at a previous employer which suggested I had very high integrity but very low conformity. Apparently that indicated "whistleblower risk".

    They weren't wrong.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,819
    edited April 13
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Really?

    I hate several people.

    Mostly people who slighted me in some minor, probably accidental, way. That I have blown up out of all proportion in my mind.

    Still, it keeps me busy.
    There are a billion people who hate Radiohead to keep you busy...
    No no no.

    There are people who love and appreciate Radiohead.

    And there are people who just haven't listened to enough Radiohead yet
    Radiohead are (were?) objectively a very good band. Yes they tended to pretension from time to time but musically they were far more sophisticated than most of their contemporaries, and they turned out a handful of bangers.

    I used to see Thom Yorke back in the 90s waiting for the bus outside my college, looking miserable. And his band mate whose name I can’t remember - he had long hair and sharp cheekbones with a haunted look.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Really?

    I hate several people.

    Mostly people who slighted me in some minor, probably accidental, way. That I have blown up out of all proportion in my mind.

    Still, it keeps me busy.
    There are a billion people who hate Radiohead to keep you busy...
    No no no.

    There are people who love and appreciate Radiohead.

    And there are people who just haven't listened to enough Radiohead yet
    The moderators will take note of those who do not like the above post, and they may be sent to Radiohead reeducation camps.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,819
    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    I don’t think I’ve ever done an IQ test, they’re the kind of thing I thought only crossword geeks or people who take puzzle books on holiday with them do, but they seem to have become a bizarre new obsession of parts of the internet and MAGA, presumably because of some sort of online racial eugenics revival.

    I have never been a fan of the likes of Sudoku, chess or cryptic crosswords so at a guess I’d assume my IQ is around average or a bit below, but I don’t think that says much about my ability to hold down a decent job competently.

    I did a compulsory test at a previous employer which suggested I had very high integrity but very low conformity. Apparently that indicated "whistleblower risk".

    They weren't wrong.
    High integrity and high conformity would be a nightmare, you’d have to think very carefully about where to work. Low integrity and low conformity on the other hand: fun.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,227
    Scott_xP said:

    Xi has Donny's nuts in a vice. Now for the squeeze...

    @nytimes.com‬

    China has suspended exports of rare earth minerals and magnets crucial to the world’s automakers, aerospace manufacturers and military contractors. The crackdown is part of the country’s retaliation for President Trump’s sharp increase in tariffs.

    https://bsky.app/profile/nytimes.com/post/3lmpp24s7kk26

    It's almost like the US is not the only country with agency.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,437
    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tres said:

    kjh said:

    scampi25 said:

    kjh said:

    https://x.com/benonwine/status/1911332065431236882

    British police warn an elderly, partially-deaf man that saying "speak English" is a hate crime.

    Yeah except that isn't true is it. Why not post what actually happened rather than post lies.

    He said 'Some people could potentially perceive that to be a hate crime'

    Note the words 'Some people', 'potentially' and 'perceive'.

    It is people like you who stir up hatred.
    Nonsense. The copper is way out of line.
    @scampi25 I didn't comment on whether I agreed with what the policeman said or not. I simply pointed out that @williamglenn lied and that is the sort of lie that stirs up hatred.
    I accurately reposted the content of a tweet. Against whom do you think I am stirring up hatred?
    We all know the answer to this already.
    I don't know the answer. I don't hate anyone.
    Really?

    I hate several people.

    Mostly people who slighted me in some minor, probably accidental, way. That I have blown up out of all proportion in my mind.

    Still, it keeps me busy.
    There are a billion people who hate Radiohead to keep you busy...
    No no no.

    There are people who love and appreciate Radiohead.

    And there are people who just haven't listened to enough Radiohead yet
    Radiohead are objectively a very good band. Yes they tended to pretension from time to time but musically they were far more sophisticated than most of their contemporaries, and they turned out a handful of bangers.

    I used to see Thom Yorke back in the 90s waiting for the bus outside my college, looking miserable. And his band mate whose name I can’t remember - he had long hair and sharp cheekbones with a haunted look.
    He'd listened to enough Radiohead.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,819
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Xi has Donny's nuts in a vice. Now for the squeeze...

    @nytimes.com‬

    China has suspended exports of rare earth minerals and magnets crucial to the world’s automakers, aerospace manufacturers and military contractors. The crackdown is part of the country’s retaliation for President Trump’s sharp increase in tariffs.

    https://bsky.app/profile/nytimes.com/post/3lmpp24s7kk26

    It's almost like the US is not the only country with agency.
    If they’re blocking those exports full stop (which I assume they are) that’s bad news for Europe, Japan, Korea and Ukraine. Collateral damage.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,777
    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Xi has Donny's nuts in a vice. Now for the squeeze...

    @nytimes.com‬

    China has suspended exports of rare earth minerals and magnets crucial to the world’s automakers, aerospace manufacturers and military contractors. The crackdown is part of the country’s retaliation for President Trump’s sharp increase in tariffs.

    https://bsky.app/profile/nytimes.com/post/3lmpp24s7kk26

    It's almost like the US is not the only country with agency.
    If they’re blocking those exports full stop (which I assume they are) that’s bad news for Europe, Japan, Korea and Ukraine. Collateral damage.
    As I have been discovering on uToob, MAGA morons will believe anything they are told. And boy howdy they are going to have to be told some absolute whoppers when Trump fully reverses his strategy.

    Then again Steve Bannon has told the News Agents that this is all phase 1. And that phase 2 will be bigger.

    The simplest way to trade with the US is don't. China doesn't have to worry about what the tariff will be tomorrow if it simply says "we're not selling to you"
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,476
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    An incredible stat here. Someone has done IQ estimates of the “Swedish elite”

    Look at the political class. The PARLIAMENTARIANS barely edge over IQ 110. THEY ARE 115 tops. That means quintessential midwits like @kinabalu and @IanB2 are running Sweden. People who should be running second hand bookshops or amateur ballet classes are running entire countries. Hence, perhaps, Sweden’s many modern problems, many of them entirely avoidable if you’re not governed by mediocrities

    I am pretty sure we would find the same in the UK. I adduce David Lammy, Jess Philips and Ed Miliband as probative evidence

    https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1719842701229560092?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    We need a new word for this phenomenon. Government by the averagely dim

    The Tories and LDs, indeed, all parties, are equally stuffed with these twats. It is not a partisan thing

    You are the classic example of the Dunning-Krueger effect. Both those guys run circles around you and yet you are completely oblivious.
    From the abstract of the underlying article,
    First, politicians are on average signicantly smarter and better leaders than the population they represent... A broad implication of these facts is that it is possible for democracy to generate competent and socially-representative leadership.

    And from the bit where the intelligence scores that someone else has mashed into IQ numbers are discussed
    The patterns in the table make intuitive sense. Academics are smart, but lack leadership, and as a result they accumulate the most years of education, but neither lead organizations nor make life-or-death decisions. Mayors, MPs and CEOs are marginally less smart, substantially less educated, but have higher leadership scores and, fittingly, do lead public and private organizations.
    He is a case study for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    It says successful Swedish politicians have an IQ around 105-115, so basically the same as you

    QED
    You will go to your grave, hopefully many decades from now, not having a clue.
    What we are experiencing - both of us - is “clarience”, or “irritelligence” - ie the psychological and rhetorical dissonance experienced when a highly intelligent individual (IQ 135+) is unable to engage meaningfully with someone of modestly above-average intelligence (IQ 105+), due to an invisible mismatch in assumptions, reasoning patterns, or linguistic nuance - despite surface-level agreement on vocabulary and syntax

    That is to say: we apparently speak the same language, you and I, but we will never truly comprehend each other

    And that’s fine! PB is a wonderful landscaped space, a curated Stourhead of minds - eagerly weeded by @TSE and @rcs1000 - and variety is the Glory of the Garden. We can both flourish on our different levels
    Reluctantly I am going to have to agree with you. I am no fan of IQ measurement as being particularly useful, however I have once taken a test for a job with a large US computer manufacturer. I don't know my score, but I was required to get a score of 130+. I guess that makes you the 105+.in your example.

    Makes sense.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,693
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @FrankLuntz

    “America would be better off if more people worked in manufacturing.”

    • 80% of Americans agree
    • 20% disagree

    “I would be better off if I worked in a factory.”

    • 25% of Americans agree
    • 73% disagree
    • 2% currently work in a factory

    https://x.com/FrankLuntz/status/1911463710029488317

    So an extra 23% of Americans would prefer to work in a factory than now do
    “I would be better off”=/= “prefer to”

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