Look What You Made Me Do – politicalbetting.com

System · April 2

Look What You Made Me Do – politicalbetting.com

Perhaps the biggest irony around the 15+ Netflix drama “Adolescence” about a 13-year old boy who knifes to death a girl at his school is not that it is being foisted on schools in a collaboration between the government, Netflix and Tender (one of those charities largely funded by the taxpayer – £3.4 million so far) with seemingly no consideration of whether it is suitable educational material, how it …

Read the full story here

TheScreamingEagles · April 2

Congratulations to Liz Truss who started her job at Vanilla on Monday.

DavidL · April 2

TheScreamingEagles said:
Congratulations to Liz Truss who started her job at Vanilla on Monday.

We seem to have lost the ability to read who has liked a post. Which is a pity.

Why is it that tech people are completely incapable of providing any "upgrade" that is as good as what they replace? It is, in my experience, a universal rule that the replacement will be more complicated, less functional and have some pointless additional feature that you don't want.

Theuniondivvie · April 2

Looks like it’s liberation day for US voters from being persuaded/bribed/bullied by Trump and Musk.

https://x.com/ronfilipkowski/status/1907251887176642880?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

ydoethur · April 2

It's a bit of a shame we have another excellent header from @Cyclefree and we're all grousing about bloody Vanilla.

For the record, I have not watched Adolescence and nor am I likely to.

bondegezou · April 2

Off topic… swings of about 10% in the two Florida by-elections is good news for the Democrats, but maybe not as good news as they would have hoped for. On topic, sort of, at least Jimmy Patronis, the new representative for Florida’s 1st district, has to be an improvement on Matt Gaetz, who frequented teenage sex workers, including one who was underage.

Malmesbury · April 2

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
Congratulations to Liz Truss who started her job at Vanilla on Monday.
We seem to have lost the ability to read who has liked a post. Which is a pity.

Why is it that tech people are completely incapable of providing any "upgrade" that is as good as what they replace? It is, in my experience, a universal rule that the replacement will be more complicated, less functional and have some pointless additional feature that you don't want.

That’s “Product Owners”

“Right - we need 27 new features to justify my job. This means that we push all the bug fixes into the back log. What do you mean we don’t have time to do full QA on that many features? Code smarter - if you do your jobs, there will be no bugs to fix.”

{the sounds of devs firing up LinkedIn to find new jobs}

Malmesbury · April 2

On topic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7vn5vj9394o

This was utterly inevitable and predictable.

DavidL · April 2

I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.

Eabhal · April 2

I disagree with some of this. Including the victim's story would have diluted the main message of Adolescence, which is that this could be your son, your family. That's also why they chose such an "ordinary" white family unit with two loving parents and the standard house that millions of people live in.

You're forced to put yourself in their position, rather than take the easy route and put yourself in the shoes of the victim and her family (or blame some ethnic minority).

The plot does not suggest that the victim was responsible - the murderer character does. The police dig into his thinking in a neutral way - but that's their job, isn't it? I don't think the intended audience - parents - need to be spoonfed that this stuff is wrong.

RochdalePioneers · April 2

On topic, a thought-provoking header as always. My take on Adolescence was that the absence of the victim was done on purpose - she was innocent and largely inconsequential to what had happened to weaponise this boy into a killer.

Her best friend's rage was glorious - we got the opposite side through her. Ultimately the series demonstrates that there is no excuse, no justification, no cause for what he did to the victim. None. Episode 3 where he runs the entire spectrum of emotions in sequence shows this.

What I hope younger generations will take from this is that "masculinity" is a construct, a performative set of definitions which have little connection to reality. The idea that young men should be angry for the way that young women respond to them is crazy - when you're 13 "incel" is the normal state of behaviour, not something to provoke senseless murder.

Theuniondivvie · April 2

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
Congratulations to Liz Truss who started her job at Vanilla on Monday.
We seem to have lost the ability to read who has liked a post. Which is a pity.

Why is it that tech people are completely incapable of providing any "upgrade" that is as good as what they replace? It is, in my experience, a universal rule that the replacement will be more complicated, less functional and have some pointless additional feature that you don't want.

Fear not, I can tell you bondegezou liked your post.

RochdalePioneers · April 2

Off-topic we have had a result in the American Deviated Prevert election. Judges should not be political to start with, so the idea of electing them under p[arty banners is utterly crazy.

Anyway, Musk lost. What that means is that the GOP plan to redistrict WI ahead of the midterms will fail, which means they will likely lose and that imperils the whole House.

So here it is. When you can't trust the people to vote the right way - because they are traitors - then you can't let them vote. This election was another step along the journey of the midterm elections not actually being run.

Selebian · April 2

What's "the increasing display and acceptance of male fetishes in public spaces"? Are you talking about advertising? (Genuine question, just not quite sure what you're getting at there).

DavidL · April 2

Eabhal said:
I disagree with some of this. Including the victim's story would have diluted the main message of Adolescence, which is that this could be your son, your family. That's also why they chose such an "ordinary" white family unit with two loving parents and the standard house that millions of people live in.

You're forced to put yourself in their position, rather than take the easy route and put yourself in the shoes of the victim and her family (or blame some ethnic minority).

The plot does not suggest that the victim was responsible - the murderer character does. The police dig into his thinking in a neutral way - but that's their job, isn't it? I don't think the intended audience - parents - need to be spoonfed that this stuff is wrong.

I linked to this the other day: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=the+president+sang+amazing+grace+by+Joan+Baez&qpvt=the+president+sang+amazing+grace+by+Joan+Baez&mid=D48BFB1AF2B898F7BEF7D48BFB1AF2B898F7BEF7&&FORM=VRDGAR

It is incredibly moving and the pictures are just perfect. One of the truly amazing things about the song is that the man who commits this appalling act is not even named. And that is the way it should be in my opinion. Concentrating on the perpetrator rather than the victims is problematic, even in a drama.

BTW, Obama comes out of the song very, very well. I simply cannot conceive of Trump doing anything like that to try and bring people together rather than promote hate and discord.

Foxy · April 2

Adolescence is a great piece of TV, with part 3 being the best. It does need concentration to pick up the nuances, and these might be easily missed in a school setting. Indeed there is a risk that false narratives dominate discussion.

For example, I see even the header seems to imply that Katie (the victim that we never see, apart from a brief CCTV shot) being described as a bully. That simply isn't the case. She didn't bully him, she rejected his advance when he went to her house. Only one example was cited of an Insta post where she called him an incel. This is not bullying, which requires serial events, it's simply being knocked back in the same way that teenagers always have in clumsy ways since the dawn of time.

One of the subtleties of Adolescence is how male dominance is part of the script, and deliberately so. So Jamie (the killer) perceives this single Insta post as "bullying", and "bullying" worthy of serious revenge, while the much more frequent bullying is from other boys to Jamie, or to the policemans son at the school, and goes without response at all. And no one at the school finds this remarkable.

We see this theme throughout, exposing the male gaze. So it's the dad who accompanies Jamie to the interview, it's the male detective that the witnesses address, with the female detective an afterthought and not introduced by name to many in the school, it's the male security guard who mansplains body language to the psychologist, it's the father that Jamie phones in episode 4, and ignores his mother and sister.

The script is very clever at tricking the audience into the male gaze and assumptions. This is probably too subtle for a school audience.

There are many interesting other aspects to it, particularly the female characters. It's the mother who tries to inform the police of Jamie's food intolerance (and gets ignored), it's Katie's best friend who gets punished and adultified in part 2, rather than psychological support, the female detective who picks up on the Manosphere link, and is ignored, only for the male detective to get the credit at the end of part 2. It's the female psychologist who gets to the heart of the motivation, indeed the confession by playing the vulnerable role, it's the sister and mother who have to tiptoe around the temper of the man in their life in part 4.

RochdalePioneers · April 2

DavidL said:
I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.

What they need to learn the basics of [deleted] respect towards women. How many rights does a man have over a woman? Zero. That's it. Once you get that into neaderthal skulls we have a chance to raise the next generation properly. And I get why this is a problem - previously in the good old days, women were property. Marriage vows invoking the need for the wife to obey the husband. Absurd and wrong that some young men think we should go back there.

Go back 25 years and we get the opposite to Adolescence. Tom Cruise's bravura performance as Frank TJ Mackey in Magnolia. "Respect THE COCK". Weaponised misogyny for dollars, from a man who descends from a proto-Tate into a destroyed wreck weeping in rage at his dying father.

Malmesbury · April 2

RochdalePioneers said:
On topic, a thought-provoking header as always. My take on Adolescence was that the absence of the victim was done on purpose - she was innocent and largely inconsequential to what had happened to weaponise this boy into a killer.

Her best friend's rage was glorious - we got the opposite side through her. Ultimately the series demonstrates that there is no excuse, no justification, no cause for what he did to the victim. None. Episode 3 where he runs the entire spectrum of emotions in sequence shows this.

What I hope younger generations will take from this is that "masculinity" is a construct, a performative set of definitions which have little connection to reality. The idea that young men should be angry for the way that young women respond to them is crazy - when you're 13 "incel" is the normal state of behaviour, not something to provoke senseless murder.

The thing that “broke” the suspension of disbelief for me was the age of the boy and the motivation. It felt like it was written for a 16 year old to be the perpetrator.

tlg86 · April 2

Thanks @Cyclefree - an excellent header. Just watching the trailer, it doesn't even look that good.

tlg86 · April 2

Malmesbury said:

RochdalePioneers said:
On topic, a thought-provoking header as always. My take on Adolescence was that the absence of the victim was done on purpose - she was innocent and largely inconsequential to what had happened to weaponise this boy into a killer.

Her best friend's rage was glorious - we got the opposite side through her. Ultimately the series demonstrates that there is no excuse, no justification, no cause for what he did to the victim. None. Episode 3 where he runs the entire spectrum of emotions in sequence shows this.

What I hope younger generations will take from this is that "masculinity" is a construct, a performative set of definitions which have little connection to reality. The idea that young men should be angry for the way that young women respond to them is crazy - when you're 13 "incel" is the normal state of behaviour, not something to provoke senseless murder.
The thing that “broke” the suspension of disbelief for me was the age of the boy and the motivation. It felt like it was written for a 16 year old to be the perpetrator.

Yeah, but a 16 year old just comes across as a c***.

DecrepiterJohnL · April 2

ydoethur said:
It's a bit of a shame we have another excellent header from @Cyclefree and we're all grousing about bloody Vanilla.

For the record, I have not watched Adolescence and nor am I likely to.

You are Kemi Badenoch AICMFP.

Seriously, what CCHQ twerp thought the best way for Kemi to attack Starmer's knee-jerking to Netflix was to brief that she was too busy to have watched it? That the best way to point to other, related problems was to go down the alt-right rabbit hole of wrong-race claims? It is as if the blue team is actively undermining their leader.

Malmesbury · April 2

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:
I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.
What they need to learn the basics of [deleted] respect towards women. How many rights does a man have over a woman? Zero. That's it. Once you get that into neaderthal skulls we have a chance to raise the next generation properly. And I get why this is a problem - previously in the good old days, women were property. Marriage vows invoking the need for the wife to obey the husband. Absurd and wrong that some young men think we should go back there.

Go back 25 years and we get the opposite to Adolescence. Tom Cruise's bravura performance as Frank TJ Mackey in Magnolia. "Respect THE COCK". Weaponised misogyny for dollars, from a man who descends from a proto-Tate into a destroyed wreck weeping in rage at his dying father.

One that we could do, is encourage real friendship between boys and girls, growing up.

As a father, it was quite startling learning how children self segregate.

As an adult, I’ve seen many people who don’t seem to include members of the opposite sex in friendship groups. Some seem not to believe that a non-sexual relationship like that is possible.

Which is hilarious in a way - that’s Mike Pence grade behaviour.

Foxy · April 2

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:
I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.
What they need to learn the basics of [deleted] respect towards women. How many rights does a man have over a woman? Zero. That's it. Once you get that into neaderthal skulls we have a chance to raise the next generation properly. And I get why this is a problem - previously in the good old days, women were property. Marriage vows invoking the need for the wife to obey the husband. Absurd and wrong that some young men think we should go back there.

Go back 25 years and we get the opposite to Adolescence. Tom Cruise's bravura performance as Frank TJ Mackey in Magnolia. "Respect THE COCK". Weaponised misogyny for dollars, from a man who descends from a proto-Tate into a destroyed wreck weeping in rage at his dying father.

If we are to try to move boys away from toxic masculinity then that is good for everybody, not just women. I am glad that this programme has raised the issue, though probably isn't the substrate necessary for instruction. For that I would recommend something more like "Men who Hate Women" by Laura Bates, an exceptional book that exposes many aspects of the Manosphere.

There was a short-lived "Men's Lib" movement in the Seventies that recognised that sexism oppressed men as well as women, and that freeing men from the patriarchy was to their benefit. Sadly this passed and now that male discourse is dominated by reactionary misogynists like the Tates.

No one is truly free until we are all free.

geoffw · April 2

The "upgraded" Vanilla is an unpleasant experience. Can't get the the text to be the right size - it's either too big or too small. Null points

Morris_Dancer · April 2

Malmesbury said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:
I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.
What they need to learn the basics of [deleted] respect towards women. How many rights does a man have over a woman? Zero. That's it. Once you get that into neaderthal skulls we have a chance to raise the next generation properly. And I get why this is a problem - previously in the good old days, women were property. Marriage vows invoking the need for the wife to obey the husband. Absurd and wrong that some young men think we should go back there.

Go back 25 years and we get the opposite to Adolescence. Tom Cruise's bravura performance as Frank TJ Mackey in Magnolia. "Respect THE COCK". Weaponised misogyny for dollars, from a man who descends from a proto-Tate into a destroyed wreck weeping in rage at his dying father.
One that we could do, is encourage real friendship between boys and girls, growing up.

As a father, it was quite startling learning how children self segregate.

As an adult, I’ve seen many people who don’t seem to include members of the opposite sex in friendship groups. Some seem not to believe that a non-sexual relationship like that is possible.

Which is hilarious in a way - that’s Mike Pence grade behaviour.

The 'believe her' nonsense of a few years ago won't have encouraged more mingling. Assumption of guilt for the sin of being male, inverting the traditional and correct stance of innocent into proven guilty, means some men will simply play it safe at work, and perhaps elsewhere. That's a shame for both sides.

Edited extra bit: that was a few years ago, not sure how much it's still a thing.

DecrepiterJohnL · April 2

RochdalePioneers said:
Off-topic we have had a result in the American Deviated Prevert election. Judges should not be political to start with, so the idea of electing them under p[arty banners is utterly crazy.

Anyway, Musk lost. What that means is that the GOP plan to redistrict WI ahead of the midterms will fail, which means they will likely lose and that imperils the whole House.

So here it is. When you can't trust the people to vote the right way - because they are traitors - then you can't let them vote. This election was another step along the journey of the midterm elections not actually being run.

Whereas Britain not running various local elections is for understandable bureaucratic reasons.

bondegezou · April 2

Theuniondivvie said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
Congratulations to Liz Truss who started her job at Vanilla on Monday.
We seem to have lost the ability to read who has liked a post. Which is a pity.

Why is it that tech people are completely incapable of providing any "upgrade" that is as good as what they replace? It is, in my experience, a universal rule that the replacement will be more complicated, less functional and have some pointless additional feature that you don't want.
Fear not, I can tell you bondegezou liked your post.

My test was successful!

Eabhal · April 2

The US judge making a victory speech is, from a British perspective, completely ******.

There's no way any MAGA supporting American could be confident that they would get a fair trial under her, and the whole thing just feeds the idea there is a "deep state" undermining the elected government.

You also had the White House yesterday saying that US immigration judges work for the DoJ and must rule in line with government policy. America might be irretrievably broken.

Stereodog · April 2

tlg86 said:
Thanks @Cyclefree - an excellent header. Just watching the trailer, it doesn't even look that good.

Funnily enough I've just finished watching it this morning. I thought it was an excellent drama about the effect of an unspeakable act on the young perpetrator and his family. It was incredibly well shot with outstanding performances. The third episode largely featuring just the boy and his psychiatrist was like a very grim one act play. As an exposé of toxic online culture and the pressures on young boys I thought it was massively over hyped. Most of the background to the killing are just hinted at in fragments of conversation which makes for a good drama but a bad instructional video. Mr Bates Vs the Post Office was a better expose of a scandal but a worse drama.

Scott_xP · April 2

yup

https://donmoynihan.substack.com/p/the-biggest-loser-in-wisconsin

MarqueeMark · April 2

I see Reeve's threatened Punctuation Tax has come in, forcing Ms Cyclefree to have to craft an 8-line and then an 11-line sentence upon us...

RochdalePioneers · April 2

DecrepiterJohnL said:

RochdalePioneers said:
Off-topic we have had a result in the American Deviated Prevert election. Judges should not be political to start with, so the idea of electing them under p[arty banners is utterly crazy.

Anyway, Musk lost. What that means is that the GOP plan to redistrict WI ahead of the midterms will fail, which means they will likely lose and that imperils the whole House.

So here it is. When you can't trust the people to vote the right way - because they are traitors - then you can't let them vote. This election was another step along the journey of the midterm elections not actually being run.
Whereas Britain not running various local elections is for understandable bureaucratic reasons.

We're delaying them, as we delayed others in the past.

What is the point in running all up elections to a council that is in the process of being abolished?

Foxy · April 2

Malmesbury said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:
I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.
What they need to learn the basics of [deleted] respect towards women. How many rights does a man have over a woman? Zero. That's it. Once you get that into neaderthal skulls we have a chance to raise the next generation properly. And I get why this is a problem - previously in the good old days, women were property. Marriage vows invoking the need for the wife to obey the husband. Absurd and wrong that some young men think we should go back there.

Go back 25 years and we get the opposite to Adolescence. Tom Cruise's bravura performance as Frank TJ Mackey in Magnolia. "Respect THE COCK". Weaponised misogyny for dollars, from a man who descends from a proto-Tate into a destroyed wreck weeping in rage at his dying father.
One that we could do, is encourage real friendship between boys and girls, growing up.

As a father, it was quite startling learning how children self segregate.

As an adult, I’ve seen many people who don’t seem to include members of the opposite sex in friendship groups. Some seem not to believe that a non-sexual relationship like that is possible.

Which is hilarious in a way - that’s Mike Pence grade behaviour.

Young children mix equally when playing, then tend to sex segregate at primary school, only then tentatively mixing again as teenagers. I think this has pretty much always been the British norm. It's the reintegration as teenagers that is becoming increasingly problematic, not least because of Social Media for girls and gaming for boys.

I work in a mostly female workplace, indeed am often the only male in a treatment session or a meeting. This is normal for me and I have never felt out of place or uncomfortable as a result. Male privilege, I suppose.

Theuniondivvie · April 2

Anyway, tis the season to get the barbecue kit ready.

https://x.com/eastendjoe/status/1907204994883105028?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

RochdalePioneers · April 2

Eabhal said:
The US judge making a victory speech is, from a British perspective, completely ******.

There's no way any MAGA supporting American could be confident that they would get a fair trial under her, and the whole thing just feeds the idea there is a "deep state" undermining the elected government.

You also had the White House yesterday saying that US immigration judges work for the DoJ and must rule in line with government policy. America might be irretrievably broken.

The secret to happiness to recognise that America has been irretrievably broken for a long time. We are seeing the death throes, not the start of its collapse.

rottenborough · April 2

Has 'Vanilla have released an upgrade" joined "bus replacement service" as amongst the most dreaded words in English language?

Scott_xP · April 2

on topic (almost)

https://x.com/PrivateEyeNews/status/1907329349067444659

Gallowgate · April 2

Eabhal said:
The US judge making a victory speech is, from a British perspective, completely ******.

There's no way any MAGA supporting American could be confident that they would get a fair trial under her, and the whole thing just feeds the idea there is a "deep state" undermining the elected government.

You also had the White House yesterday saying that US immigration judges work for the DoJ and must rule in line with government policy. America might be irretrievably broken.

The theory of making judges accountable to the public for the proper function of the role is sound. The problem, as always, is party politics.

You need an educated, informed, and engaged population for it to work. America seems to be none of these things.

AnneJGP · April 2

Thanks, @Cyclefree.

Scott_xP · April 2

Apparently Tesla's production numbers are due out this morning

After the Wisconsin result, have we passed peak Musk?

@ianboudreau.com‬

Anyway, one reason nobody in the Republican party dares cross him is because of the threat that he'll fund a primary opponent if you make him angry, and I imagine there are at least a few of them reevaluating how scary that actually is tonight

https://bsky.app/profile/ianboudreau.com/post/3llsd4tzzyk2q

Gallowgate · April 2

rottenborough said:

Has 'Vanilla have released an upgrade" joined "bus replacement service" as amongst the most dreaded words in English language?

Delays to service. Metro apologises.

Leon · April 2

The Gur-e-Emir in Samarkand. Bloody hell

DecrepiterJohnL · April 2

As we were saying about Adolescence and American democracy...

StillWaters · April 2

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
Congratulations to Liz Truss who started her job at Vanilla on Monday.
We seem to have lost the ability to read who has liked a post. Which is a pity.

Why is it that tech people are completely incapable of providing any "upgrade" that is as good as what they replace? It is, in my experience, a universal rule that the replacement will be more complicated, less functional and have some pointless additional feature that you don't want.

Because you are not the customer

JosiasJessop · April 2

Scott_xP said:
Apparently Tesla's production numbers are due out this morning

After the Wisconsin result, have we passed peak Musk?

@ianboudreau.com‬

Anyway, one reason nobody in the Republican party dares cross him is because of the threat that he'll fund a primary opponent if you make him angry, and I imagine there are at least a few of them reevaluating how scary that actually is tonight

https://bsky.app/profile/ianboudreau.com/post/3llsd4tzzyk2q

Production isn't necessarily a problem for them. It's selling them.

There are some interesting stories about how they 'gamed' Canadian EV rebates:

"The Star reported earlier this month that Tesla filed an extraordinary number of EV rebate claims in the final days of the program in January, with a single Tesla dealership in Quebec City claiming nearly C$20 million in public subsidies by documenting more than 4,000 electric vehicle sales over a single weekend."

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/canada-freezes-rebate-payments-tesla-bans-it-future-rebate-programs-due-tariffs-2025-03-25/

MarqueeMark · April 2

Leon said:
The Gur-e-Emir in Samarkand. Bloody hell

Isn't it a mauseleum for someone who inflicted bloody hell? He out-cruelled the Mongols.

Roger · April 2

A header from someone who hasn't watched the program and doesn't understand it.

That's a novel critique.

Malmesbury · April 2

StillWaters said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
Congratulations to Liz Truss who started her job at Vanilla on Monday.
We seem to have lost the ability to read who has liked a post. Which is a pity.

Why is it that tech people are completely incapable of providing any "upgrade" that is as good as what they replace? It is, in my experience, a universal rule that the replacement will be more complicated, less functional and have some pointless additional feature that you don't want.
Because you are not the customer

You are the product

DecrepiterJohnL · April 2

Leon, MorrisDancer and other authors might be interested in The Rest is Entertainment's look at Meta using pirated books to train AI. Who is the mysterious "MZ" mentioned in Meta's internal communications?

Richard and Marina delve into the murky world of LibGen, the Russian illegal archive that has ripped both host's [sic] back catalog [sic] of books and the possibility that Facebook has used it to train their AI chatbot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev4CX7Qjxy4

tlg86 · April 2

I actually think it's a bad idea to show this in schools. It could easily do more harm than good.

Malmesbury · April 2

Off topic

Boeing being Boeing

https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/04/the-harrowing-story-of-what-flying-starliner-was-like-when-its-thrusters-failed

Barnesian · April 2

Foxy said:
Adolescence is a great piece of TV, with part 3 being the best. It does need concentration to pick up the nuances, and these might be easily missed in a school setting. Indeed there is a risk that false narratives dominate discussion.

For example, I see even the header seems to imply that Katie (the victim that we never see, apart from a brief CCTV shot) being described as a bully. That simply isn't the case. She didn't bully him, she rejected his advance when he went to her house. Only one example was cited of an Insta post where she called him an incel. This is not bullying, which requires serial events, it's simply being knocked back in the same way that teenagers always have in clumsy ways since the dawn of time.

One of the subtleties of Adolescence is how male dominance is part of the script, and deliberately so. So Jamie (the killer) perceives this single Insta post as "bullying", and "bullying" worthy of serious revenge, while the much more frequent bullying is from other boys to Jamie, or to the policemans son at the school, and goes without response at all. And no one at the school finds this remarkable.

We see this theme throughout, exposing the male gaze. So it's the dad who accompanies Jamie to the interview, it's the male detective that the witnesses address, with the female detective an afterthought and not introduced by name to many in the school, it's the male security guard who mansplains body language to the psychologist, it's the father that Jamie phones in episode 4, and ignores his mother and sister.

The script is very clever at tricking the audience into the male gaze and assumptions. This is probably too subtle for a school audience.

There are many interesting other aspects to it, particularly the female characters. It's the mother who tries to inform the police of Jamie's food intolerance (and gets ignored), it's Katie's best friend who gets punished and adultified in part 2, rather than psychological support, the female detective who picks up on the Manosphere link, and is ignored, only for the male detective to get the credit at the end of part 2. It's the female psychologist who gets to the heart of the motivation, indeed the confession by playing the vulnerable role, it's the sister and mother who have to tiptoe around the temper of the man in their life in part 4.

I think it is brilliant TV, and obviously Starmer agrees with me.

But that is not a good reason for it to be shown in schools. It is too subtle for that, and as you say, there is a risk that false narratives will dominate discussion.

Emilia Holliday who plays Katie, the victim, sings "Through the Eyes of a Child" in the closing sequence of episode 4. But not many people will pick that up. You need to be informed.

Morris_Dancer · April 2

MarqueeMark said:

Leon said:
The Gur-e-Emir in Samarkand. Bloody hell
Isn't it a mauseleum for someone who inflicted bloody hell? He out-cruelled the Mongols.

Tamerlane?

Morris_Dancer · April 2

DecrepiterJohnL said:
Leon, MorrisDancer and other authors might be interested in The Rest is Entertainment's look at Meta using pirated books to train AI. Who is the mysterious "MZ" mentioned in Meta's internal communications?

Richard and Marina delve into the murky world of LibGen, the Russian illegal archive that has ripped both host's [sic] back catalog [sic] of books and the possibility that Facebook has used it to train their AI chatbot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev4CX7Qjxy4

Sadly, I'm 0% surprised. Same thing's happened with art. And I know a voice actor who told me some VAs had their voices used to train AI, without being told that was the case.

DecrepiterJohnL · April 2

DecrepiterJohnL said:
Leon, MorrisDancer and other authors might be interested in The Rest is Entertainment's look at Meta using pirated books to train AI. Who is the mysterious "MZ" mentioned in Meta's internal communications?

Richard and Marina delve into the murky world of LibGen, the Russian illegal archive that has ripped both host's [sic] back catalog [sic] of books and the possibility that Facebook has used it to train their AI chatbot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev4CX7Qjxy4

Damn! Missed a third "sic" – YouTube's AI needs better training material! – and the edit button seems to have disappeared as well.

Roger · April 2

DecrepiterJohnL said:
As we were saying about Adolescence and American democracy...

That would have made an interesting header

Foxy · April 2

Roger said:
A header from someone who hasn't watched the program and doesn't understand it.

That's a novel critique.

Welcome to the modern world.

Badenoch did the same, spouting the false story on X to boot that tries to sideline the topic of misogyny to become Musks hobbyhorse of race.

another_richard · April 2

So can people stop pretending that Trump won because Musk spent some money ?

I know its a comfort blanket for some who don't want to accept the numerous ways the Dems messed up but electoral spending really does follow the law of diminishing returns.

DecrepiterJohnL · April 2

Roger said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:
As we were saying about Adolescence and American democracy...

That would have made an interesting header

With the ‘in cells’ pun so subtle that TSE could have written it.

Casino_Royale · April 2

Kids can be cruel.

I had to stop three 4-year old boys picking on my 2-year old son at a kids birthday last Saturday because he was too little and they wanted him to "get out" of the trampoline, which he was very much enjoying. They'd even managed to rope a 3-year old girl to join their gang as well.

They listened and stopped straight away when I told them to be kind, but the Lord of the Flies instinct in there is strong.

Morris_Dancer · April 2

DecrepiterJohnL said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:
Leon, MorrisDancer and other authors might be interested in The Rest is Entertainment's look at Meta using pirated books to train AI. Who is the mysterious "MZ" mentioned in Meta's internal communications?

Richard and Marina delve into the murky world of LibGen, the Russian illegal archive that has ripped both host's [sic] back catalog [sic] of books and the possibility that Facebook has used it to train their AI chatbot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev4CX7Qjxy4

Damn! Missed a third "sic" – YouTube's AI needs better training material! – and the edit button seems to have disappeared as well.

The edit button it still there, but it might be harder to spot, without the icon.

DecrepiterJohnL · April 2

Barnesian said:

Foxy said:
Adolescence is a great piece of TV, with part 3 being the best. It does need concentration to pick up the nuances, and these might be easily missed in a school setting. Indeed there is a risk that false narratives dominate discussion.

For example, I see even the header seems to imply that Katie (the victim that we never see, apart from a brief CCTV shot) being described as a bully. That simply isn't the case. She didn't bully him, she rejected his advance when he went to her house. Only one example was cited of an Insta post where she called him an incel. This is not bullying, which requires serial events, it's simply being knocked back in the same way that teenagers always have in clumsy ways since the dawn of time.

One of the subtleties of Adolescence is how male dominance is part of the script, and deliberately so. So Jamie (the killer) perceives this single Insta post as "bullying", and "bullying" worthy of serious revenge, while the much more frequent bullying is from other boys to Jamie, or to the policemans son at the school, and goes without response at all. And no one at the school finds this remarkable.

We see this theme throughout, exposing the male gaze. So it's the dad who accompanies Jamie to the interview, it's the male detective that the witnesses address, with the female detective an afterthought and not introduced by name to many in the school, it's the male security guard who mansplains body language to the psychologist, it's the father that Jamie phones in episode 4, and ignores his mother and sister.

The script is very clever at tricking the audience into the male gaze and assumptions. This is probably too subtle for a school audience.

There are many interesting other aspects to it, particularly the female characters. It's the mother who tries to inform the police of Jamie's food intolerance (and gets ignored), it's Katie's best friend who gets punished and adultified in part 2, rather than psychological support, the female detective who picks up on the Manosphere link, and is ignored, only for the male detective to get the credit at the end of part 2. It's the female psychologist who gets to the heart of the motivation, indeed the confession by playing the vulnerable role, it's the sister and mother who have to tiptoe around the temper of the man in their life in part 4.

I think it is brilliant TV, and obviously Starmer agrees with me.

But that is not a good reason for it to be shown in schools. It is too subtle for that, and as you say, there is a risk that false narratives will dominate discussion.

Emilia Holliday who plays Katie, the victim, sings "Through the Eyes of a Child" in the closing sequence of episode 4. But not many people will pick that up. You need to be informed.

There were some objections to Starmer's schools plan from victims' advocates on social media last night, and of course in Cyclefree's header.

RochdalePioneers · April 2

Foxy said:

Roger said:
A header from someone who hasn't watched the program and doesn't understand it.

That's a novel critique.
Welcome to the modern world.

Badenoch did the same, spouting the false story on X to boot that tries to sideline the topic of misogyny to become Musks hobbyhorse of race.

What I don't get about that Badenoch intervention. She is a Black woman. Trying to side with white racists in plugging the great replacement theory to win their racist votes.

Is there one basic obvious problem she has failed to recognise?

rottenborough · April 2

Wisconsin Supreme Court Election Result!

LOL.

Suck it up Musky!!

Malmesbury · April 2

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:
I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.
What they need to learn the basics of [deleted] respect towards women. How many rights does a man have over a woman? Zero. That's it. Once you get that into neaderthal skulls we have a chance to raise the next generation properly. And I get why this is a problem - previously in the good old days, women were property. Marriage vows invoking the need for the wife to obey the husband. Absurd and wrong that some young men think we should go back there.

Go back 25 years and we get the opposite to Adolescence. Tom Cruise's bravura performance as Frank TJ Mackey in Magnolia. "Respect THE COCK". Weaponised misogyny for dollars, from a man who descends from a proto-Tate into a destroyed wreck weeping in rage at his dying father.
One that we could do, is encourage real friendship between boys and girls, growing up.

As a father, it was quite startling learning how children self segregate.

As an adult, I’ve seen many people who don’t seem to include members of the opposite sex in friendship groups. Some seem not to believe that a non-sexual relationship like that is possible.

Which is hilarious in a way - that’s Mike Pence grade behaviour.
Young children mix equally when playing, then tend to sex segregate at primary school, only then tentatively mixing again as teenagers. I think this has pretty much always been the British norm. It's the reintegration as teenagers that is becoming increasingly problematic, not least because of Social Media for girls and gaming for boys.

I work in a mostly female workplace, indeed am often the only male in a treatment session or a meeting. This is normal for me and I have never felt out of place or uncomfortable as a result. Male privilege, I suppose.

The most vocal objection to the idea of platonic friendship between men and women, that I recall, came from a woman.

The idea that a man wasn’t chasing women all the time seemed… almost immoral to her.

Northern_Al · April 2

I quote from the header:
The plot itself suggests that the girl’s behaviour was somehow responsible for Jamie’s behaviour...
I'm sorry, this is simply wrong - it does not - in fact, quite the reverse. This, combined with the provocative title of the header, undermines the rest of the argument. In general terms, I'd agree with most of the points made in the header, but not when it is linked to Adolescence, which is designed to challenge misogyny and its roots.

DecrepiterJohnL · April 2

Morris_Dancer said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:
Leon, MorrisDancer and other authors might be interested in The Rest is Entertainment's look at Meta using pirated books to train AI. Who is the mysterious "MZ" mentioned in Meta's internal communications?

Richard and Marina delve into the murky world of LibGen, the Russian illegal archive that has ripped both host's [sic] back catalog [sic] of books and the possibility that Facebook has used it to train their AI chatbot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev4CX7Qjxy4

Damn! Missed a third "sic" – YouTube's AI needs better training material! – and the edit button seems to have disappeared as well.
The edit button it still there, but it might be harder to spot, without the icon.

Bottom right of a post. Got it, thanks! ETA or top right!

another_richard · April 2

Eabhal said:
The US judge making a victory speech is, from a British perspective, completely ******.

There's no way any MAGA supporting American could be confident that they would get a fair trial under her, and the whole thing just feeds the idea there is a "deep state" undermining the elected government.

You also had the White House yesterday saying that US immigration judges work for the DoJ and must rule in line with government policy. America might be irretrievably broken.

There is both a Dem judicial state which undermines GOP elected governments and a GOP judicial state which undermines Dem elected governments.

Hence political activists immediately run to a friendly federal judge when the other side is in power.

Casino_Royale · April 2

Sort of on topic, "Fujitsu" has come up time and time again in my career when poor performance or behaviours have been discussed in the IT arena.

I don't know how they keep getting away with it. Presumably they are good at winning tenders and people just can't think of or find anyone else.

Stocky · April 2

Thanks for the header @Cyclefree - very good - particularly the third from last paragraph.
.

algarkirk · April 2

Cyclefree (thanks for the article) says this:

What we have failed to understand or teach or show is that we – especially men and boys but not just them – must know the extent of our strength and power, the limits of it, why we have to value and exercise self-restraint and self-control and why we have to think of the effect of our behaviour on others

But overlooks the fact that the overwhelming majority of people - women as well as men - behave in exactly these ways. This needs to be accounted for.

When Cycle free says "We have failed" I do not know who she includes, but tentatively I count Cyclefree out. And me.

No_Offence_Alan · April 2

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:
I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.
What they need to learn the basics of [deleted] respect towards women. How many rights does a man have over a woman? Zero. That's it. Once you get that into neaderthal skulls we have a chance to raise the next generation properly. And I get why this is a problem - previously in the good old days, women were property. Marriage vows invoking the need for the wife to obey the husband. Absurd and wrong that some young men think we should go back there.

Go back 25 years and we get the opposite to Adolescence. Tom Cruise's bravura performance as Frank TJ Mackey in Magnolia. "Respect THE COCK". Weaponised misogyny for dollars, from a man who descends from a proto-Tate into a destroyed wreck weeping in rage at his dying father.
One that we could do, is encourage real friendship between boys and girls, growing up.

As a father, it was quite startling learning how children self segregate.

As an adult, I’ve seen many people who don’t seem to include members of the opposite sex in friendship groups. Some seem not to believe that a non-sexual relationship like that is possible.

Which is hilarious in a way - that’s Mike Pence grade behaviour.
Young children mix equally when playing, then tend to sex segregate at primary school, only then tentatively mixing again as teenagers. I think this has pretty much always been the British norm. It's the reintegration as teenagers that is becoming increasingly problematic, not least because of Social Media for girls and gaming for boys.

I work in a mostly female workplace, indeed am often the only male in a treatment session or a meeting. This is normal for me and I have never felt out of place or uncomfortable as a result. Male privilege, I suppose.

My experience of my step-son and my son when they were teenagers is that boys are better behaved in a group of just boys. When there are girls in the group the boys start "showing off".

Dura_Ace · April 2

RochdalePioneers said:

Is there one basic obvious problem she has failed to recognise?

Yes. She is about as well suited to the task of the leading the fucking tory scum to electoral victory as I am.

Malmesbury · April 2

Casino_Royale said:
Sort of on topic, "Fujitsu" has come up time and time again in my career when poor performance or behaviours have been discussed in the IT arena.

I don't know how they keep getting away with it. Presumably they are good at winning tenders and people just can't think of or find anyone else.

Big contractors make the government feel comfortable. Plus they are up for taking the inevitable hits when things go wrong.

See Crapita.

I recall near anguish (by some here) at my suggestion that instead of giving local monopolies to the big house builders, parcel it out to smaller companies - “but what about efficiency?” was the cry…

RochdalePioneers · April 2

Northern_Al said:
I quote from the header:
The plot itself suggests that the girl’s behaviour was somehow responsible for Jamie’s behaviour...
I'm sorry, this is simply wrong - it does not - in fact, quite the reverse. This, combined with the provocative title of the header, undermines the rest of the argument. In general terms, I'd agree with most of the points made in the header, but not when it is linked to Adolescence, which is designed to challenge misogyny and its roots.

Cyclefree has watched the series before writing about it. Surely...?

Scott_xP · April 2

Casino_Royale said:
Sort of on topic, "Fujitsu" has come up time and time again in my career when poor performance or behaviours have been discussed in the IT arena.

I don't know how they keep getting away with it. Presumably they are good at winning tenders and people just can't think of or find anyone else.

I think you need to factor in that Fujitsu UK is what was at one time ICL

They had all the major Government contracts. The DHSS and other systems were built on ICL mainframes

When it was 'privatised' EDS won many of the initial contracts. Same people. Same jobs. Same hardware. Same code.

Then Fujitsu won the business from EDS. All the same people were TUPEd again

Roger · April 2

Foxy said:

Roger said:
A header from someone who hasn't watched the program and doesn't understand it.

That's a novel critique.
Welcome to the modern world.

Badenoch did the same, spouting the false story on X to boot that tries to sideline the topic of misogyny to become Musks hobbyhorse of race.

I know but you expect better from PB

JosiasJessop · April 2

I'd never heard of TENDER before. For anyone who has not, here's the Wiki page for them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tender_(charity)

"The TRUST Education Project aims to enable young men and young women to develop healthy relationships based on respect, trust and equality and to be active citizens in creating communities that do not tolerate domestic abuse and sexual violence. The objective of the project is to change attitudes of tolerance to violence by using drama to explore issues around healthy and unhealthy relationships. Young people create a piece of theatre that represents their understanding and outlook while also educating and informing their audience, peers and local communities. In a 10-week workshop process, students explore issues around respect within relationships, good citizenship and positive communication skills."

Malmesbury · April 2

Roger said:

Foxy said:

Roger said:
A header from someone who hasn't watched the program and doesn't understand it.

That's a novel critique.
Welcome to the modern world.

Badenoch did the same, spouting the false story on X to boot that tries to sideline the topic of misogyny to become Musks hobbyhorse of race.
I know but you expect better from PB

And now we get blokes critiquing a woman writing on misogyny, because she doesn’t hold a fictional treatment of the subject (written by a man) as the last word….

Malmesbury · April 2

JosiasJessop said:
I'd never heard of TENDER before. For anyone who has not, here's the Wiki page for them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tender_(charity)

"The TRUST Education Project aims to enable young men and young women to develop healthy relationships based on respect, trust and equality and to be active citizens in creating communities that do not tolerate domestic abuse and sexual violence. The objective of the project is to change attitudes of tolerance to violence by using drama to explore issues around healthy and unhealthy relationships. Young people create a piece of theatre that represents their understanding and outlook while also educating and informing their audience, peers and local communities. In a 10-week workshop process, students explore issues around respect within relationships, good citizenship and positive communication skills."

That sounds like an actual attempt to fix things. Anyone know how effective it is?

occasionalranter · April 2

Sorry, late to the thread. To be clear, has Cyclefree watched the programme ?

JosiasJessop · April 2

Malmesbury said:

JosiasJessop said:
I'd never heard of TENDER before. For anyone who has not, here's the Wiki page for them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tender_(charity)

"The TRUST Education Project aims to enable young men and young women to develop healthy relationships based on respect, trust and equality and to be active citizens in creating communities that do not tolerate domestic abuse and sexual violence. The objective of the project is to change attitudes of tolerance to violence by using drama to explore issues around healthy and unhealthy relationships. Young people create a piece of theatre that represents their understanding and outlook while also educating and informing their audience, peers and local communities. In a 10-week workshop process, students explore issues around respect within relationships, good citizenship and positive communication skills."
That sounds like an actual attempt to fix things. Anyone know how effective it is?

I'd never heard of it. I just though Ms Free 's comment about it in the threader was rather oddly negative.

Fishing · April 2

another_richard said:

Eabhal said:
The US judge making a victory speech is, from a British perspective, completely ******.

There's no way any MAGA supporting American could be confident that they would get a fair trial under her, and the whole thing just feeds the idea there is a "deep state" undermining the elected government.

You also had the White House yesterday saying that US immigration judges work for the DoJ and must rule in line with government policy. America might be irretrievably broken.

There is both a Dem judicial state which undermines GOP elected governments and a GOP judicial state which undermines Dem elected governments.

Hence political activists immediately run to a friendly federal judge when the other side is in power.

You'd almost think that appointing political judges through a political process was a terrible idea.

HYUFD · April 2

Several points missed by Cyclefree. First Katie was taunting Jamie for being an incel in the programme both online and in person despite his interest in her and while that in no way excuses his actions it does show we need to encourage all teenage girls and boys to have healthy relationships otherwise boys will be drawn to the likes of Tate if they are not seen as part of some Alpha elite male group.

Second of course voyeurism and exposure both in person and online are illegal under both the Sexual Offences and Online Safety Acts.

Third programmes like Adolescence and the Post Office drama have started a conversation about the issues they address and should be shown in schools

Flatlander · April 2

Casino_Royale said:
Sort of on topic, "Fujitsu" has come up time and time again in my career when poor performance or behaviours have been discussed in the IT arena.

I don't know how they keep getting away with it. Presumably they are good at winning tenders and people just can't think of or find anyone else.

They are the remnants of a government created (Tony Benn) computing company and there's some weird attachment to them in the civil service?

Malmesbury · April 2

JosiasJessop said:

Malmesbury said:

JosiasJessop said:
I'd never heard of TENDER before. For anyone who has not, here's the Wiki page for them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tender_(charity)

"The TRUST Education Project aims to enable young men and young women to develop healthy relationships based on respect, trust and equality and to be active citizens in creating communities that do not tolerate domestic abuse and sexual violence. The objective of the project is to change attitudes of tolerance to violence by using drama to explore issues around healthy and unhealthy relationships. Young people create a piece of theatre that represents their understanding and outlook while also educating and informing their audience, peers and local communities. In a 10-week workshop process, students explore issues around respect within relationships, good citizenship and positive communication skills."
That sounds like an actual attempt to fix things. Anyone know how effective it is?
I'd never heard of it. I just though Ms Free 's comment about it in the threader was rather oddly negative.

It is one of those charities which is, essentially, an arm of government (Golden Rule). So pointing out they are, when they rush to agree with the PM is fair comment.

tlg86 · April 2

Flatlander said:

Casino_Royale said:
Sort of on topic, "Fujitsu" has come up time and time again in my career when poor performance or behaviours have been discussed in the IT arena.

I don't know how they keep getting away with it. Presumably they are good at winning tenders and people just can't think of or find anyone else.
They are the remnants of a government created (Tony Benn) computing company and there's some weird attachment to them in the civil service?

They were at ONS when I was there. No idea if they still are, but your description actually sounds about right.

twistedfirestopper3 · April 2

Should we be relying on profit orientated entertainment corporations to teach us how to bring up our teenage boys to not be misogynistic murderers and rapists? The same corporations that have addicted them to living online in virtual worlds? Is that what we've become? Shouldn't we be binning off those corporations and try some actual real life parenting?
For the record, I've not watched it and have no intention of watching it.
It's not got enough machine guns and helicopters in it for me.

HYUFD · April 2

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:
I have yet to watch this program and @Cyclefree's description does not make this any more likely. I completely agree that we are seeing more and more "populist" moves by Starmer without any proper evidence base. Its troubling.

On the misogyny thing I have said before that in many rape cases young men are genuinely bewildered about what they have done wrong. They have repeatedly seen that if you simply barge through a woman's initial reluctance they rapidly become enthusiastic orgasmic bed partners. They seem to have "learned" that this is how this works. I am not troubled by consensual behaviour in porn, no matter how unrealistic. I am very concerned about the casual violence that lacks all consequence. That is what we need to focus upon. What they need is a nice cup of tea.
What they need to learn the basics of [deleted] respect towards women. How many rights does a man have over a woman? Zero. That's it. Once you get that into neaderthal skulls we have a chance to raise the next generation properly. And I get why this is a problem - previously in the good old days, women were property. Marriage vows invoking the need for the wife to obey the husband. Absurd and wrong that some young men think we should go back there.

Go back 25 years and we get the opposite to Adolescence. Tom Cruise's bravura performance as Frank TJ Mackey in Magnolia. "Respect THE COCK". Weaponised misogyny for dollars, from a man who descends from a proto-Tate into a destroyed wreck weeping in rage at his dying father.

Yet with more divorced and separated couples and families who is it who gets most of the custody of the children? Almost always the mother not the father

Leon · April 2

@MarqueeMark Yes indeed it is the mausoleum of Tamerlane - the emir Timur. The guy who built pyramids of skulls wherever he went. Eg when he slaughtered 70,000 citizens of Isfahan in a day

Paradoxically his mausoleum (originally intended for his son) is one of the most beautiful buildings I have seen in my life - for its interior

Stunning

HYUFD · April 2

Dura_Ace said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Is there one basic obvious problem she has failed to recognise?
Yes. She is about as well suited to the task of the leading the fucking tory scum to electoral victory as I am.

Kemi is unlikely to be PM on current polls.

However she has a reasonable chance of being
Deputy PM or Foreign Secretary in a PM Farage led government

Malmesbury · April 2

twistedfirestopper3 said:
Should we be relying on profit orientated entertainment corporations to teach us how to bring up our teenage boys to not be misogynistic murderers and rapists? The same corporations that have addicted them to living online in virtual worlds? Is that what we've become? Shouldn't we be binning off those corporations and try some actual real life parenting?
For the record, I've not watched it and have no intention of watching it.
It's not got enough machine guns and helicopters in it for me.

{@Cyclefree walks away from an explosion in slow motion, not looking back}

Scott_xP · April 2

another_richard said:
So can people stop pretending that Trump won because Musk spent some money ?

In November, Musk was just another eccentric billionaire. Spending money definitely helped Trumpski

Now he is the Nazi that is stopping family welfare checks. Now his money is toxic.

Cyclefree · April 2

algarkirk said:
Cyclefree (thanks for the article) says this:

What we have failed to understand or teach or show is that we – especially men and boys but not just them – must know the extent of our strength and power, the limits of it, why we have to value and exercise self-restraint and self-control and why we have to think of the effect of our behaviour on others

But overlooks the fact that the overwhelming majority of people - women as well as men - behave in exactly these ways. This needs to be accounted for.

When Cycle free says "We have failed" I do not know who she includes, but tentatively I count Cyclefree out. And me.

I was referring to society as a whole. Lots of us do try to behave well and teach our children well. But I look at our society and I see one in which self-restraint is not valued and a selfish individualism seems to be its main animating force.

The drama is a good drama. It is not an educational tool. And the reaction to it by politicians has been pathetic. Yes there is a serious issue about misogyny - but the underlying one is about how best to channel the energies and talents of boys is fruitful ways, for them and all of us. Misogyny is one aspect of this. But it is not the only one, which is why I referenced the killing of males by other males. The conversation needs to go wider.

I was also interested in why in all the discussion about it there was so little reference to the victim - which is itself a sign of misogyny - even though I quite understand why, from a dramatic perspective, the writers concentrated on the boy and his father. But what makes a good drama does not make for a thoughtful educational tool, which is the point I was trying to make.

And also that dramas can allow us to express outrage but effective action takes something more, something which is being ignored by the politicians in this soundbite era.

PS The Bates drama was very good at showing in a human way the reality of a very complex PO scandal. That is not at all easy and all credit to the writer. She also wrote a very good drama about a real life "honour" killing - Honour, which led to no political action or national conversation at all - Asian girls being at the bottom of everyone's concerns, shamefully.

Malmesbury · April 2

twistedfirestopper3 said:
Should we be relying on profit orientated entertainment corporations to teach us how to bring up our teenage boys to not be misogynistic murderers and rapists? The same corporations that have addicted them to living online in virtual worlds? Is that what we've become? Shouldn't we be binning off those corporations and try some actual real life parenting?
For the record, I've not watched it and have no intention of watching it.
It's not got enough machine guns and helicopters in it for me.

We should also be vigorously protesting against any women who have the slightest objection to its portrayal of misogyny. What do they know?

Scott_xP · April 2

Malmesbury said:
@{@Cyclefree walks away from an explosion in slow motion, not looking back}

Just realising the appropriate GIF for Trumpski's "Liberation Day" announcement is Tony Stark demoing the missile system in Iron Man

Theuniondivvie · April 2

Scott_xP said:

another_richard said:
So can people stop pretending that Trump won because Musk spent some money ?
In November, Musk was just another eccentric billionaire. Spending money definitely helped Trumpski

Now he is the Nazi that is stopping family welfare checks. Now his money is toxic.

The Soros buck seems to go a LOT further than the Musk one.

https://x.com/WUTangKids/status/1907258703708864976

Foxy · April 2

HYUFD said:
Several points missed by Cyclefree. First Katie was taunting Jamie for being an incel in the programme both online and in person despite his interest in her and while that in no way excuses his actions it does show we need to encourage all teenage girls and boys to have healthy relationships otherwise boys will be drawn to the likes of Tate if they are not seen as part of some Alpha elite male group.

Second of course voyeurism and exposure both in person and online are illegal under both the Sexual Offences and Online Safety Acts.

Third programmes like Adolescence and the Post Office drama have started a conversation about the issues they address and should be shown in schools

No, she wasn't bullying him. She rejected him, after he asked her out, at a time when he thought she would be vulnerable.

Indeed it was his gang of boys who bullied her by circulating the top less photos of her around the school on Instagram.

Jamie did not particularly like Katie. He was no moonstruck Romeo. He tried to exploit her vulnerability in order to feel a sense of male power.

Anyone buying into the idea that rejection is bullying is showing their true colours and should examine their own views

That so many people seem unable to understand what the show is about, even mature intelligent adults, shows how poorly suited to schools.

There are many other interesting aspects to the show, including understanding of criminal responsibility, worthy of discussion, but this is a discussion that needs small group discussion with good chairing, and probably at A level or above. It isn't for young teens.

Cyclefree · April 2

Malmesbury said:

JosiasJessop said:

Malmesbury said:

JosiasJessop said:
I'd never heard of TENDER before. For anyone who has not, here's the Wiki page for them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tender_(charity)

"The TRUST Education Project aims to enable young men and young women to develop healthy relationships based on respect, trust and equality and to be active citizens in creating communities that do not tolerate domestic abuse and sexual violence. The objective of the project is to change attitudes of tolerance to violence by using drama to explore issues around healthy and unhealthy relationships. Young people create a piece of theatre that represents their understanding and outlook while also educating and informing their audience, peers and local communities. In a 10-week workshop process, students explore issues around respect within relationships, good citizenship and positive communication skills."
That sounds like an actual attempt to fix things. Anyone know how effective it is?
I'd never heard of it. I just though Ms Free 's comment about it in the threader was rather oddly negative.
It is one of those charities which is, essentially, an arm of government (Golden Rule). So pointing out they are, when they rush to agree with the PM is fair comment.

I am Chair of Trustees of a primary single sex girls' school. We have PHSE classes. We take a lot of care about what we teach and how and who comes in. Foisting a "charity" on schools without careful due diligence about what it is, who is behind it, who will come in, what they will say etc is pretty irresponsible in my view. Especially when they seem to be linked to a commercial TV operation which obviously wants to get as much publicity as it can for its programme. This is not how sensitive and important educational material should be created or disseminated.

BatteryCorrectHorse · April 2

Post spring statement @Moreincommon_ VI sees Labour fall to our lowest score for them at 21%. Tories at 26% lead Reform by 1.

🌳 CON 26% (+1)
➡️ REF UK 25% (+1)
🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
🔶 LIB DEM 13% (+1)
🌍 GREEN 7% (-3)
🟡 SNP 2% (-1)

N =2,081 | Dates: 28 - 31/3 | Change w 24/3

https://x.com/luketryl/status/1907323946090872979

Pulpstar · April 2

Hold on I haven't watched the show yet, no spoilers :O !

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Categories

Look What You Made Me Do – politicalbetting.com

Comments