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The matter of Britain – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,389
edited March 30 in General
The matter of Britain – politicalbetting.com

The “Matter of Britain” is the name given to a corpus of literature and legends associated with the first-millennium island of Great Britain and associated places. A mishmash of historical fact, out-and-out fiction and points in between, it gave national myths to a land which arguably did not exist, and created a patria around which patriotism could coalesce.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,402
    edited March 30
    Eid, Mothering Sunday, and the clocks going forward all on the same day.

    What fresh hell is this?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,815
    Second?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,402
    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,155
    edited March 30
    Fourth.

    What an interesting header.

    My first note of the day - I had not copped that Costa Coffee is owned by Coca Cola.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,867
    edited March 30
    I thought Nigel Kneale invented "Ringstone Round".

    Or are you suggesting that in the future people may not be fans of Quatermass?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,492
    There will still be a UK and GB and their home nations for the majority of the population. Defined by culture, language and traditions. Even if a global, liberal, high earning super elite ie the Davos crowd see themselves in May's phrase as 'citizens of nowhere' they have also produced the backlash to more nationalist and protectionist parties and candidates at the polls
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,815
    Thanks. Interesting. A suggestion. Once the planet, or most of it, reaches a particular point in communication, prosperity and relatedness there arises a particular global need.

    This need is to be able to view the planet however minimally in a single, universal way, so that one structure links all places both in imagination and in some basic practicalities. These are things like the postal service, running of air transport and shipping, communication between powers. However imaginary the structure, it is still needed.

    Only a finite number of possibilities for this exist.

    Kant's idea was a single universal government - think UN x a million. Which will never work. It's a vision of unreal peacniks and Napoleon.

    The one we have adopted - and this is as close to universal as is possible really - is the 'state'; everywhere is to be identified by: borders, internal sovereignty (at least in theory), a leadership.

    This much arises out of a sort of necessity. You can intellectualise it by reading Hegel (don't try) or theorise about its merits. But, as we are shown daily, the alternative is anarchy.

    The rest is all contingent, like evolution. It's the survival of survivors. You get what you get, including suprises. The USA is springing one right now.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    Wait you're telling me that barber shops and kebab shops that have about 7 customers a day don't turnover £200-400k in cash per year or have over £100k in expenses?! Shocked, I tell you, shocked.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,310
    Good morning, everyone.

    No time to read the header now but look forward to doing so early afternoon - when you've probably all moved on to another thread.

    So thanks in anticipation, @viewcode.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,141

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    That’s a shock.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,487

    Eid, Mothering Sunday, and the clocks going forward all on the same day.

    What fresh hell is this?

    One where you better make sure you do exactly what your mum wants you to do...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,820

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,820
    MattW said:

    Fourth.

    What an interesting header.

    My first note of the day - I had not copped that Costa Coffee is owned by Coca Cola.

    Coca Cola bought Costa Coffee from Whitbread a couple of years ago. Yet another small part of Britain disappeared overseas.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 794

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
    They only provide a service if they are genuine. Once when I as in need of an emergency haircut I nearly got scalped by a 'barber' who was clearly panicked at the thought of a customer. These barbers and vape shops can blight a high street and push it further into decline so personally I think it is a good use of the authorities time.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,155

    Eid, Mothering Sunday, and the clocks going forward all on the same day.

    What fresh hell is this?

    Would you rather have them on three consecutive Sundays?

    Is this not the same as "consecutive" or "concurrent" prison sentences?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,946

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,564
    Excellent threader. Will get back to you later, Viewcode.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,400
    Foxy said:

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    You might find this book interesting

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderlines-History-Europe-told-edges-ebook/dp/B0CCD38ZZY

    It's not a page turner, but discusses exactly this in various places over time
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,155

    MattW said:

    Fourth.

    What an interesting header.

    My first note of the day - I had not copped that Costa Coffee is owned by Coca Cola.

    Coca Cola bought Costa Coffee from Whitbread a couple of years ago. Yet another small part of Britain disappeared overseas.
    A small part of Britain invented by an Italian immigrant in 1971 :smile: .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,744
    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    A lot of legitimate businesses also operate as front companies for drug cash money laundering and take a small cut as their risk premium. There's a Turkish barber near my parents house, always empty but he does reasonably good haircuts and they have good reviews, the guy drives a £90k BMW, he didn't get the money from it cutting hair.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,256
    MaxPB said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    Wait you're telling me that barber shops and kebab shops that have about 7 customers a day don't turnover £200-400k in cash per year or have over £100k in expenses?! Shocked, I tell you, shocked.
    Maybe Anabob is correct and cash will cease to exist
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    Wait you're telling me that barber shops and kebab shops that have about 7 customers a day don't turnover £200-400k in cash per year or have over £100k in expenses?! Shocked, I tell you, shocked.
    Maybe Anabob is correct and cash will cease to exist
    Cryptocurrency is hastening the end as illicit activity moves into that sphere rather than cash.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,820
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Fourth.

    What an interesting header.

    My first note of the day - I had not copped that Costa Coffee is owned by Coca Cola.

    Coca Cola bought Costa Coffee from Whitbread a couple of years ago. Yet another small part of Britain disappeared overseas.
    A small part of Britain invented by an Italian immigrant in 1971 :smile: .
    Those are the best parts.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,795

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
    The front shops *are* where the profits of other crimes are being laundered.

    Remember when every Big Criminal owned a scrap yard?

    In the case of the barbers, a number of them are associated with known drug dealers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,744
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    You might find this book interesting

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderlines-History-Europe-told-edges-ebook/dp/B0CCD38ZZY

    It's not a page turner, but discusses exactly this in various places over time
    Thanks. I will add it to my reading list.

    Similarly, this book on the horsetrading around the Versailles conference in 1919 has a lot on how borders were decided, including for such contentious places as the Sudetenland, and Sud-Tirol. Lots of other fascinating bits on reparations and demilitarisation too. Sad to see the cases belli of the next war being set up in advance, but isn't it ever so?

    https://amzn.eu/d/dnY44x1
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,402
    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    Wait you're telling me that barber shops and kebab shops that have about 7 customers a day don't turnover £200-400k in cash per year or have over £100k in expenses?! Shocked, I tell you, shocked.
    Maybe Anabob is correct and cash will cease to exist
    Going cashless is also saving the lives of kids.

    Decline of cash credited for drop in NHS surgery for children swallowing objects

    Figures reveal 29% fall in operations in England to remove foreign bodies from children’s airways, noses and throats


    The Royal College of Surgeons of England (RCSE), which obtained the figures, collated from hospital admission data, identified the rise of the cashless society as the main reason.

    “Historically, coins accounted for over 75% of objects swallowed by children under six years old, and fewer coins in homes due to contactless payments have likely helped reduce the number of these procedures,” it said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/mar/28/decline-of-cash-credited-for-drop-in-nhs-surgery-for-children-swallowing-objects
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,402
    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
    Don't diss AML bureaucracy, it helps keep me in a job.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,425
    edited March 30
    Viewcode's threads are always interesting and offer some fresh perspectives.

    They do not use references like a scholarly article, and why should they - they're only PB headers. Instead the ideas are introduced as self-evident truth. This is fine, it's a style.

    Until we hit something I'm actually relatively familiar with, such as Margaret Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood in any way being the basis for the wet Eurofederalism of Howe and later Blair. Then it comes to a crunching halt.

    The wets' ideas (if they can be called that) were very well established long before Thatcher came to power - before even Heath came to power. There is also no sense in which Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood legitimised their push for European statehood with the British public - the wet policy on European statehood has always been furious denial that such a thing exists, whilst working toward Britain's participation in it behind the scenes. It still is.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,425

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
    The front shops *are* where the profits of other crimes are being laundered.

    Remember when every Big Criminal owned a scrap yard?

    In the case of the barbers, a number of them are associated with known drug dealers.
    Hopefully it's the profits of crimes outside the UK being laundered, then at least it's helping the BOP.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,795
    edited March 30
    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
    The more real and profitable the business, the better for money laundering.

    Look out for a water company or train franchise that is making a big profit, seems well run….
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,330
    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    Nationalism goes hand in hand with the growth of democracy. Nationalism dissolves multi-national empires, as the upper classes come to identify more with their own people than with the imperial elites.

    If that process goes into reverse, one would expect our century-old experiment with democracy to gradually come to an end.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,333
    Nice piece, @viewcode . One could obviously expand in each part. I think there is much more to be said in part 8 and following about how capital internationalised and the resulting disconnect between business and local communities.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,447

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
    The front shops *are* where the profits of other crimes are being laundered.

    Remember when every Big Criminal owned a scrap yard?

    In the case of the barbers, a number of them are associated with known drug dealers.
    Hopefully it's the profits of crimes outside the UK being laundered, then at least it's helping the BOP.
    Not just the BoP - it will increase productive investment, employment and consumption through multiplier effects, and help fund public services as tax is paid on the newly legitimate savings. Much better than if the money is kept as cash in a storage shed a la Breaking Bad.

    If you take the initial crimes as a sunk cost, or don't care about them because they were committed abroad, money laundering is an economically beneficial activity.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,158
    Awkward echo between the Citizens of Nowhere and the money-laundering shops.

    Both want the boons of the state (even gangsters need their used fifty pound notes to have value) without paying the costs of it.

    The big question is how we resolve that, when human nature is fundamentally cakeist?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,905

    Happy Mothers Day to all Mums, Eid Mubarak to all Muslims.

    My wife's first mothers day without a mother. And my daughter's first as a mother. The circle of life rolls on.

    Some things are eternal, however. I came across this again this morning: https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=e571dd1d0d2dc4465ac2115e989fde995bc776e1b0c106d6617167575b1b2f2bJmltdHM9MTc0MzI5MjgwMA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=4&fclid=286f17fc-1c60-6c5a-0eb0-02b31dff6dac&u=a1L3ZpZGVvcy9zZWFyY2g_cT10aGUrcHJlc2lkZW50K3NhbmcrYW1hemluZytncmFjZStieStKb2FuK0JhZXomcXB2dD10aGUrcHJlc2lkZW50K3NhbmcrYW1hemluZytncmFjZStieStqb2FuK2JhZXomRk9STT1WRFJF&ntb=1

    Such things can hold a nation together and create a sense of community.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,844
    .

    Viewcode's threads are always interesting and offer some fresh perspectives.

    They do not use references like a scholarly article, and why should they - they're only PB headers. Instead the ideas are introduced as self-evident truth. This is fine, it's a style.

    Until we hit something I'm actually relatively familiar with, such as Margaret Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood in any way being the basis for the wet Eurofederalism of Howe and later Blair. Then it comes to a crunching halt.

    The wets' ideas (if they can be called that) were very well established long before Thatcher came to power - before even Heath came to power. There is also no sense in which Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood legitimised their push for European statehood with the British public - the wet policy on European statehood has always been furious denial that such a thing exists, whilst working toward Britain's participation in it behind the scenes. It still is.

    You're so attached to the Thatcher myth, you can't even read carefully.

    "...This enabled her to privatise nationalized industries and move them to the free market, disconnecting the economy from nationality and from the land. But this opened Pandora’s box and that disconnect went on to enable the pro-Europeanism of Howe, the liberal interventionism of Blair, and ultimately the European Union’s supranationalism and even Euronationalism.."

    Viewcode actually makes a very good case here. Obviously Mrs T didn't create those things, but it's far from daft to say that her internationalisation of the economy helped enable them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,115
    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
    Ha, mine is an Iraqi Kurd, provides a decent haircut, nose and ear hairs removed, neck shaved and everything.
    Them Kurds sure get about. Thank Allah that he never chose them or promised them a land, think of all the trouble that would cause.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,425
    Fishing said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
    The front shops *are* where the profits of other crimes are being laundered.

    Remember when every Big Criminal owned a scrap yard?

    In the case of the barbers, a number of them are associated with known drug dealers.
    Hopefully it's the profits of crimes outside the UK being laundered, then at least it's helping the BOP.
    Not just the BoP - it will increase productive investment, employment and consumption through multiplier effects, and help fund public services as tax is paid on the newly legitimate savings. Much better than if the money is kept as cash in a storage shed a la Breaking Bad.

    If you take the initial crimes as a sunk cost, or don't care about them because they were committed abroad, money laundering is an economically beneficial activity.
    Probably unsurprising we're seeing a crackdown then. See also Russian oligarchs and British millionaires. F***k off we don't want your stinking money... oh.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,795

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
    Don't diss AML bureaucracy, it helps keep me in a job.
    AML is a perfect example of The Process State Fallacy

    1) We must do something
    2) This means filing out huge number of forms in unintelligent, rote fashion
    3) Therefore we must do this.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,744
    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    I should add that "Citizens of Nowhere" with their internationalist media are not just South African Oligarchs like Musk and Thiel, or middle class professionals like myself, but also Reform Facebook activists in Stoke and Scunthorpe watching US YouTube, Ugandan protesters making BLM protests, Young British feminists banging on about Roe vs Wade, Black British gangsters going on about the Feds, etc.Thats before we get to financial markets bringing down governments and Crypto kings wanting to end national currencies.

    We are in a decentralised, denationalised world already in many ways.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,256

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.
    ....have you been anywhere nice on your holidays.....very nice Sir......that'll be seven hundred and fifty two thousand pounds.......
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,744
    Fishing said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
    The front shops *are* where the profits of other crimes are being laundered.

    Remember when every Big Criminal owned a scrap yard?

    In the case of the barbers, a number of them are associated with known drug dealers.
    Hopefully it's the profits of crimes outside the UK being laundered, then at least it's helping the BOP.
    Not just the BoP - it will increase productive investment, employment and consumption through multiplier effects, and help fund public services as tax is paid on the newly legitimate savings. Much better than if the money is kept as cash in a storage shed a la Breaking Bad.

    If you take the initial crimes as a sunk cost, or don't care about them because they were committed abroad, money laundering is an economically beneficial activity.
    Certainly a big boon to the City of London. Why else do so many foreign robber barons and crooked politicians have their fortunes here? Money laundering is what made this country great.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
    Don't diss AML bureaucracy, it helps keep me in a job.
    My wife too!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,425

    I lost my mother on 3rd March. It is a great sadness to me that I cannot wish her Happy Mothers Day.
    She wrote the Manual on how to be a good Mum.

    I am so sorry to hear that - sympathies.

    It is little comfort, but my personal belief is that she is still there, and that you can wish her a Happy Mothers Day.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,844
    .
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    I should add that "Citizens of Nowhere" with their internationalist media are not just South African Oligarchs like Musk and Thiel, or middle class professionals like myself, but also Reform Facebook activists in Stoke and Scunthorpe watching US YouTube, Ugandan protesters making BLM protests, Young British feminists banging on about Roe vs Wade, Black British gangsters going on about the Feds, etc.Thats before we get to financial markets bringing down governments and Crypto kings wanting to end national currencies.

    We are in a decentralised, denationalised world already in many ways.
    There are countervailing forces, though.

    For example, the determination by the US (and possibly Europe) that reindustrialisation is an economic imperative...

    The obvious nationalism and territorial aggression variously displayed by China, Russia, and now Israel, gives rise to a nationalist response in their neighbours...

    Are such things likely to reverse your trend, or merely slow it ?

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,425
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Viewcode's threads are always interesting and offer some fresh perspectives.

    They do not use references like a scholarly article, and why should they - they're only PB headers. Instead the ideas are introduced as self-evident truth. This is fine, it's a style.

    Until we hit something I'm actually relatively familiar with, such as Margaret Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood in any way being the basis for the wet Eurofederalism of Howe and later Blair. Then it comes to a crunching halt.

    The wets' ideas (if they can be called that) were very well established long before Thatcher came to power - before even Heath came to power. There is also no sense in which Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood legitimised their push for European statehood with the British public - the wet policy on European statehood has always been furious denial that such a thing exists, whilst working toward Britain's participation in it behind the scenes. It still is.

    You're so attached to the Thatcher myth, you can't even read carefully.

    "...This enabled her to privatise nationalized industries and move them to the free market, disconnecting the economy from nationality and from the land. But this opened Pandora’s box and that disconnect went on to enable the pro-Europeanism of Howe, the liberal interventionism of Blair, and ultimately the European Union’s supranationalism and even Euronationalism.."

    Viewcode actually makes a very good case here. Obviously Mrs T didn't create those things, but it's far from daft to say that her internationalisation of the economy helped enable them.
    Ah. I think it's reading it half awake rather than my attachment to the Thatcher myth, but yes, apologies Viewcode.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,844

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
    Ha, mine is an Iraqi Kurd, provides a decent haircut, nose and ear hairs removed, neck shaved and everything.
    Them Kurds sure get about. Thank Allah that he never chose them or promised them a land, think of all the trouble that would cause.
    For a moment, before I checked your commas, I was concerned about the nose remival.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,330

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    Those polyglot empires make the basic functioning of democracy much more difficult. It is no surprise that democracy started in well defined city states, was preserved in a debased form in geographically delimited Kingdoms and republics and, as Viewcode points out, was only really able to flourish after the Westphalian Treaties.

    Blair wanted an end to the Westphalian Settlement. What he was actually pushing for - though I don't accuse him of knowingly doing this - was an end to functional democracy.
    100 years ago, “progressive” (for want of a better term) politicians would have seen the development of nation states, and democracies, as good things. Now, they would not.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,155
    edited March 30

    MattW said:

    Fourth.

    What an interesting header.

    My first note of the day - I had not copped that Costa Coffee is owned by Coca Cola.

    Coca Cola bought Costa Coffee from Whitbread a couple of years ago. Yet another small part of Britain disappeared overseas.
    The last couple of days I have been listening to a bit of NatCon USA material, on which I'll comment a little later on - to try and hear it from the horse's mouth without having to go through a mob of twats on twitter.

    As I see it, they are committed to the theoretical basis of Trumpism (the word is used), and regard themselves as enemies of Neocons (internationalist / interventionist / "peace through strength"), and Libertarians and traditional conservatives as curate's eggs.

    They have a heavy commitment to religion integrated with nationalism, and disdain for anything outside the USA - so are happy denying basic rights or constitutional rights or legal rights to non-citizens. This also kills "The American Dream" myth stone dead.

    I interpret that to be a manifestion of the "religion based state" (1) tradition, which has always run alongside the "neutral state" (2) idea in US history, and a ideological interpretation of "manifest destiny".

    I think a useful lens to understand aspects of current developments in the USA is as a political and cultural battle between (1) and (2).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,993
    MaxPB said:

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    Wait you're telling me that barber shops and kebab shops that have about 7 customers a day don't turnover £200-400k in cash per year or have over £100k in expenses?! Shocked, I tell you, shocked.
    Maybe Anabob is correct and cash will cease to exist
    Cryptocurrency is hastening the end as illicit activity moves into that sphere rather than cash.
    How do you pay your Turkish barber for your haircut in cryptocurrency. Saying that the one I use is CASH only.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,487
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
    Don't diss AML bureaucracy, it helps keep me in a job.
    My wife too!
    One thing those barbers and candy stores show is how many landlords are willing to turn a blind eye to escape responsibility for the business rates - any tenant (provided they are not growing cannabis) is better than no tenant
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,115
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    There will be a lot of collateral damage here. Feel bad for my barber who gets a lot of racist comments but, as far as I can tell, is a legit outfit employing a handful of local teenagers of all ethnicities.

    To be fair, he isn't Turkish either but pretends to be. Syrian Kurds.
    My barber is an Iranian Kurd, but definitely cuts my hair and takes my money.

    The money laundering going on through fronts like Turkish barbers, Taxi companies and American candy stores does rather make a mockery of the bonkers AML bureaucracy around buying and selling property or even opening a bank account for my church.
    Ha, mine is an Iraqi Kurd, provides a decent haircut, nose and ear hairs removed, neck shaved and everything.
    Them Kurds sure get about. Thank Allah that he never chose them or promised them a land, think of all the trouble that would cause.
    For a moment, before I checked your commas, I was concerned about the nose remival.
    ‘How do you smell after a visit to the barber?’

    ‘With great difficulty!’

    He actually slaps a pleasant cologne onto the shorn areas, so quite nice is the real answer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,844
    Brace.

    The Chinese conglomerate CK Hutchison has announced that it’s withdrawing from signing a deal next week to sell its two strategic ports at the Panama Canal to an American-led group.

    It’s now unclear whether the deal will go through at all..

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1906005945785733532
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,868
    ...

    I lost my mother on 3rd March. It is a great sadness to me that I cannot wish her Happy Mothers Day.
    She wrote the Manual on how to be a good Mum.

    Wish her a happy Mother's day! Whenever I pass Bridgend Crem I say hello to my mum as I pass, sometimes I pull in for a few moments wish her a good day and drive away. I don't do it so much now but occasionally I would walk across the lawn where her ashes are scattered and tell her my news. I found that to be cathartic particularly in the early days.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,993
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    I should add that "Citizens of Nowhere" with their internationalist media are not just South African Oligarchs like Musk and Thiel, or middle class professionals like myself, but also Reform Facebook activists in Stoke and Scunthorpe watching US YouTube, Ugandan protesters making BLM protests, Young British feminists banging on about Roe vs Wade, Black British gangsters going on about the Feds, etc.Thats before we get to financial markets bringing down governments and Crypto kings wanting to end national currencies.

    We are in a decentralised, denationalised world already in many ways.
    Going to the dogs more like, robbed by a few unscrupulous robbing arseholes. The great unwashed have been dumbed down so much that as long as they have an iphone, an 85" TV and can afford munchie boxes then they are doing well. Ill educated and only able to respond to pictures.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,905
    So, what is the modern state?

    I would say, firstly, that it is an economic unit that supports those within its community that are in need. Being British, for example, entitles you to a range of benefits from welfare, the NHS, cleanish water, disposal of sewerage, some sort of an education and the great British tradition of a right to moan about it all.

    Much of the argument is at the margins. Who has the right to join us? What are they entitled to when they do and at what stage? Are we content to have multiculturism or are we wanting a more homogeneous sense of unity with the restrictions that imposes?

    Such a nation state serves a useful purpose for almost all of us at different stages of our lives and some pride as well as some angst in how our particular unit operates is a part of human nature. A world without it would be much harsher, no doubt more comfortable for the better off, better skilled and more mobile but nasty, brutish and short for the majority.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,155
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Fourth.

    What an interesting header.

    My first note of the day - I had not copped that Costa Coffee is owned by Coca Cola.

    Coca Cola bought Costa Coffee from Whitbread a couple of years ago. Yet another small part of Britain disappeared overseas.
    The last couple of days I have been listening to a bit of NatCon USA material, on which I'll comment a little later on - to try and hear it from the horse's mouth without having to go through a mob of twats on twitter.

    As I see it, they are committed to the theoretical basis of Trumpism (the word is used), and regard themselves as enemies of Neocons (internationalist / interventionist / "peace through strength"), and Libertarians and traditional conservatives as curate's eggs.

    They have a heavy commitment to religion integrated with nationalism, and disdain for anything outside the USA - so are happy denying basic rights or constitutional rights or legal rights to non-citizens. This also kills "The American Dream" myth stone dead.

    I interpret that to be a manifestion of the "religion based state" (1) tradition, which has always run alongside the "neutral state" (2) idea in US history, and a ideological interpretation of "manifest destiny".

    I think a useful lens to understand aspects of current developments in the USA is as a political and cultural battle between (1) and (2).
    PS If I take a pragmatic interpretation of the outcome, I think the movement will culminate and recede as it becomes clear that - far from reinforcing the USA and "USA as hegemon" - they have partially demolished both.

    One question is how does everyone else deal with the small or large "tsunami" caused by the partial collapse of such a structure as the USA.

    Another one is what remaining loyalty those embracing Trump have to the UK.
  • Love the analysis.

    But will the land survive?

    I’m not convinced. The global disconnect between capital and ‘natural capital’ leaves us totally exposed to climate catastrophe.

    I guess that’s my life, and why I do what I do.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,487
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Fourth.

    What an interesting header.

    My first note of the day - I had not copped that Costa Coffee is owned by Coca Cola.

    Coca Cola bought Costa Coffee from Whitbread a couple of years ago. Yet another small part of Britain disappeared overseas.
    The last couple of days I have been listening to a bit of NatCon USA material, on which I'll comment a little later on - to try and hear it from the horse's mouth without having to go through a mob of twats on twitter.

    As I see it, they are committed to the theoretical basis of Trumpism (the word is used), and regard themselves as enemies of Neocons (internationalist / interventionist / "peace through strength"), and Libertarians and traditional conservatives as curate's eggs.

    They have a heavy commitment to religion integrated with nationalism, and disdain for anything outside the USA - so are happy denying basic rights or constitutional rights or legal rights to non-citizens. This also kills "The American Dream" myth stone dead.

    I interpret that to be a manifestion of the "religion based state" (1) tradition, which has always run alongside the "neutral state" (2) idea in US history, and a ideological interpretation of "manifest destiny".

    I think a useful lens to understand aspects of current developments in the USA is as a political and cultural battle between (1) and (2).
    PS If I take a pragmatic interpretation of the outcome, I think the movement will culminate and recede as it becomes clear that - far from reinforcing the USA and "USA as hegemon" - they have partially demolished both.

    One question is how does everyone else deal with the small or large "tsunami" caused by the partial collapse of such a structure as the USA.

    Another one is what remaining loyalty those embracing Trump have to the UK.
    None - Farage and co are just looking after themselves - but like Trump they've found that the have nots aren't happy with the position they are in but don't grasp that what they are being offered really won't make their situation better.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,744

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    Those polyglot empires make the basic functioning of democracy much more difficult. It is no surprise that democracy started in well defined city states, was preserved in a debased form in geographically delimited Kingdoms and republics and, as Viewcode points out, was only really able to flourish after the Westphalian Treaties.

    Blair wanted an end to the Westphalian Settlement. What he was actually pushing for - though I don't accuse him of knowingly doing this - was an end to functional democracy.
    No, the EU was simply democracy on a larger scale. I appreciate that you never felt loyalty to the EU, but many of us did, and I was personally affronted when my European identity was stripped away, and that was true for many other Britons.

    Nationality has never been the be all and end all, whether within Empire or in other international bodies like the UN or NATO.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,224
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    Wait you're telling me that barber shops and kebab shops that have about 7 customers a day don't turnover £200-400k in cash per year or have over £100k in expenses?! Shocked, I tell you, shocked.
    Maybe Anabob is correct and cash will cease to exist
    Cryptocurrency is hastening the end as illicit activity moves into that sphere rather than cash.
    How do you pay your Turkish barber for your haircut in cryptocurrency. Saying that the one I use is CASH only.
    Kraken/Binance/Coinbase. You just need the destination address from the "barber". I guarantee they will have multiples. The less reputable end of the car business now runs on crypto. No cash.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,744
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    I should add that "Citizens of Nowhere" with their internationalist media are not just South African Oligarchs like Musk and Thiel, or middle class professionals like myself, but also Reform Facebook activists in Stoke and Scunthorpe watching US YouTube, Ugandan protesters making BLM protests, Young British feminists banging on about Roe vs Wade, Black British gangsters going on about the Feds, etc.Thats before we get to financial markets bringing down governments and Crypto kings wanting to end national currencies.

    We are in a decentralised, denationalised world already in many ways.
    There are countervailing forces, though.

    For example, the determination by the US (and possibly Europe) that reindustrialisation is an economic imperative...

    The obvious nationalism and territorial aggression variously displayed by China, Russia, and now Israel, gives rise to a nationalist response in their neighbours...

    Are such things likely to reverse your trend, or merely slow it ?

    Yes, there is always a reaction. Though paradoxically it is often foreigners that are whipping up reactionary nationalists. Putin has long been a sponsor of nationalist populists in Europe, and now Musk is doing the same.

    It is just a front though, they support nationalist agendas only as far as it suits their own agendas. So Putin supports Hungarian and German nationalists, but denies that Ukranian national consciousness exists at all.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,967
    The Westphalian order is under attack. Putin has no time for it
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,744
    DavidL said:

    So, what is the modern state?

    I would say, firstly, that it is an economic unit that supports those within its community that are in need. Being British, for example, entitles you to a range of benefits from welfare, the NHS, cleanish water, disposal of sewerage, some sort of an education and the great British tradition of a right to moan about it all.

    Much of the argument is at the margins. Who has the right to join us? What are they entitled to when they do and at what stage? Are we content to have multiculturism or are we wanting a more homogeneous sense of unity with the restrictions that imposes?

    Such a nation state serves a useful purpose for almost all of us at different stages of our lives and some pride as well as some angst in how our particular unit operates is a part of human nature. A world without it would be much harsher, no doubt more comfortable for the better off, better skilled and more mobile but nasty, brutish and short for the majority.

    Increasingly the Broligarchy is opting out of the nation state, gutting US government services in order to drop their taxes even lower.

    Similarly there is the issue with companies making fortunes out of the British consumer, but paying next to no tax here.

    It's a bit like the aristocracy being tax exempt in pre-revolutionary France.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,115
    Justin Welby not a very sharp tool.
    Kuenssberg asks the q do you forgive the abuser John Smythe, after a pause Welby answers yes.
    He then goes on to say it’s not really for him to forgive but for the victims (which should be his only answer).
    Guess which part the BBC news bulletin is leading with.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,388
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    So, what is the modern state?

    I would say, firstly, that it is an economic unit that supports those within its community that are in need. Being British, for example, entitles you to a range of benefits from welfare, the NHS, cleanish water, disposal of sewerage, some sort of an education and the great British tradition of a right to moan about it all.

    Much of the argument is at the margins. Who has the right to join us? What are they entitled to when they do and at what stage? Are we content to have multiculturism or are we wanting a more homogeneous sense of unity with the restrictions that imposes?

    Such a nation state serves a useful purpose for almost all of us at different stages of our lives and some pride as well as some angst in how our particular unit operates is a part of human nature. A world without it would be much harsher, no doubt more comfortable for the better off, better skilled and more mobile but nasty, brutish and short for the majority.

    Increasingly the Broligarchy is opting out of the nation state, gutting US government services in order to drop their taxes even lower.

    Similarly there is the issue with companies making fortunes out of the British consumer, but paying next to no tax here.

    It's a bit like the aristocracy being tax exempt in pre-revolutionary France.
    And what happened to the French aristocracy?
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,141

    Fishing said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
    The front shops *are* where the profits of other crimes are being laundered.

    Remember when every Big Criminal owned a scrap yard?

    In the case of the barbers, a number of them are associated with known drug dealers.
    Hopefully it's the profits of crimes outside the UK being laundered, then at least it's helping the BOP.
    Not just the BoP - it will increase productive investment, employment and consumption through multiplier effects, and help fund public services as tax is paid on the newly legitimate savings. Much better than if the money is kept as cash in a storage shed a la Breaking Bad.

    If you take the initial crimes as a sunk cost, or don't care about them because they were committed abroad, money laundering is an economically beneficial activity.
    Probably unsurprising we're seeing a crackdown then. See also Russian oligarchs and British millionaires. F***k off we don't want your stinking money... oh.
    Lakshmi Mittal going now, he announced it this week although this does go back,to,Jeremy Hunt’s time as chancellor.

    Yet the Patriotic Millionaires and Barrow Boy Gary Stevenson tell us the rich want to pay more tax !
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,400

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    So, what is the modern state?

    I would say, firstly, that it is an economic unit that supports those within its community that are in need. Being British, for example, entitles you to a range of benefits from welfare, the NHS, cleanish water, disposal of sewerage, some sort of an education and the great British tradition of a right to moan about it all.

    Much of the argument is at the margins. Who has the right to join us? What are they entitled to when they do and at what stage? Are we content to have multiculturism or are we wanting a more homogeneous sense of unity with the restrictions that imposes?

    Such a nation state serves a useful purpose for almost all of us at different stages of our lives and some pride as well as some angst in how our particular unit operates is a part of human nature. A world without it would be much harsher, no doubt more comfortable for the better off, better skilled and more mobile but nasty, brutish and short for the majority.

    Increasingly the Broligarchy is opting out of the nation state, gutting US government services in order to drop their taxes even lower.

    Similarly there is the issue with companies making fortunes out of the British consumer, but paying next to no tax here.

    It's a bit like the aristocracy being tax exempt in pre-revolutionary France.
    And what happened to the French aristocracy?
    Indeed. At some point the Broligarchy will realise that the people they are screwing all have guns
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    Wait you're telling me that barber shops and kebab shops that have about 7 customers a day don't turnover £200-400k in cash per year or have over £100k in expenses?! Shocked, I tell you, shocked.
    Maybe Anabob is correct and cash will cease to exist
    Cryptocurrency is hastening the end as illicit activity moves into that sphere rather than cash.
    How do you pay your Turkish barber for your haircut in cryptocurrency. Saying that the one I use is CASH only.
    Not the people paying the barbers, the people buying the drugs on the street whose money is then laundered through the barber shops and kebab houses.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,256
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    Those polyglot empires make the basic functioning of democracy much more difficult. It is no surprise that democracy started in well defined city states, was preserved in a debased form in geographically delimited Kingdoms and republics and, as Viewcode points out, was only really able to flourish after the Westphalian Treaties.

    Blair wanted an end to the Westphalian Settlement. What he was actually pushing for - though I don't accuse him of knowingly doing this - was an end to functional democracy.
    No, the EU was simply democracy on a larger scale. I appreciate that you never felt loyalty to the EU, but many of us did, and I was personally affronted when my European identity was stripped away, and that was true for many other Britons.

    Nationality has never been the be all and end all, whether within Empire or in other international bodies like the UN or NATO.
    Parochialism has been an absolute curse in this country. I blame our chauvanistic history books that told us we won the war which became ingrained into a generation who are now old but still around.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,400
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    Those polyglot empires make the basic functioning of democracy much more difficult. It is no surprise that democracy started in well defined city states, was preserved in a debased form in geographically delimited Kingdoms and republics and, as Viewcode points out, was only really able to flourish after the Westphalian Treaties.

    Blair wanted an end to the Westphalian Settlement. What he was actually pushing for - though I don't accuse him of knowingly doing this - was an end to functional democracy.
    No, the EU was simply democracy on a larger scale. I appreciate that you never felt loyalty to the EU, but many of us did, and I was personally affronted when my European identity was stripped away, and that was true for many other Britons.

    Nationality has never been the be all and end all, whether within Empire or in other international bodies like the UN or NATO.
    Parochialism has been an absolute curse in this country. I blame our chauvanistic history books that told us we won the war which became ingrained into a generation who are now old but still around.
    Worse in the US.

    @NOELreports
    🇺🇸 Fox News host Jesse Watters: “We don’t need friends. If we have to burn some bridges with Denmark to take Greenland, so be it. We’re big boys. We dropped bombs on Japan, and now they’re our ally. America isn’t handcuffed by history.”
    https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1905927108712386791
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,744
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    So, what is the modern state?

    I would say, firstly, that it is an economic unit that supports those within its community that are in need. Being British, for example, entitles you to a range of benefits from welfare, the NHS, cleanish water, disposal of sewerage, some sort of an education and the great British tradition of a right to moan about it all.

    Much of the argument is at the margins. Who has the right to join us? What are they entitled to when they do and at what stage? Are we content to have multiculturism or are we wanting a more homogeneous sense of unity with the restrictions that imposes?

    Such a nation state serves a useful purpose for almost all of us at different stages of our lives and some pride as well as some angst in how our particular unit operates is a part of human nature. A world without it would be much harsher, no doubt more comfortable for the better off, better skilled and more mobile but nasty, brutish and short for the majority.

    Increasingly the Broligarchy is opting out of the nation state, gutting US government services in order to drop their taxes even lower.

    Similarly there is the issue with companies making fortunes out of the British consumer, but paying next to no tax here.

    It's a bit like the aristocracy being tax exempt in pre-revolutionary France.
    And what happened to the French aristocracy?
    Indeed. At some point the Broligarchy will realise that the people they are screwing all have guns
    And it's why so many of the Broligarchy act like Bond villains, setting up boltholes staffed by henchmen.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-valley-billionaires-are-prepping-for-the-apocalypse-in-new-zealand?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Of course, then they need henchmen to watch out for mutinies within their henchmen...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,400
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    So, what is the modern state?

    I would say, firstly, that it is an economic unit that supports those within its community that are in need. Being British, for example, entitles you to a range of benefits from welfare, the NHS, cleanish water, disposal of sewerage, some sort of an education and the great British tradition of a right to moan about it all.

    Much of the argument is at the margins. Who has the right to join us? What are they entitled to when they do and at what stage? Are we content to have multiculturism or are we wanting a more homogeneous sense of unity with the restrictions that imposes?

    Such a nation state serves a useful purpose for almost all of us at different stages of our lives and some pride as well as some angst in how our particular unit operates is a part of human nature. A world without it would be much harsher, no doubt more comfortable for the better off, better skilled and more mobile but nasty, brutish and short for the majority.

    Increasingly the Broligarchy is opting out of the nation state, gutting US government services in order to drop their taxes even lower.

    Similarly there is the issue with companies making fortunes out of the British consumer, but paying next to no tax here.

    It's a bit like the aristocracy being tax exempt in pre-revolutionary France.
    And what happened to the French aristocracy?
    Indeed. At some point the Broligarchy will realise that the people they are screwing all have guns
    And it's why so many of the Broligarchy act like Bond villains, setting up boltholes staffed by henchmen.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-valley-billionaires-are-prepping-for-the-apocalypse-in-new-zealand?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Of course, then they need henchmen to watch out for mutinies within their henchmen...
    Or they need their companies stock price to hold up so they can pay their henchmen
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,400

    A bit harsh on all the mothers out there, allocating them the one day in the year that is only 23 hours long.

    https://bsky.app/profile/tomgauld.bsky.social/post/3lllhycoitc24
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,580
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    You might find this book interesting

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderlines-History-Europe-told-edges-ebook/dp/B0CCD38ZZY

    It's not a page turner, but discusses exactly this in various places over time
    This is good too

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Storyland-Mythology-Britain-Amy-Jeffs/dp/1529407974

    Although nothing will be Our Island Story

    (And nice reference to the Doctor, @viewcode )
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,580

    Viewcode's threads are always interesting and offer some fresh perspectives.

    They do not use references like a scholarly article, and why should they - they're only PB headers. Instead the ideas are introduced as self-evident truth. This is fine, it's a style.

    Until we hit something I'm actually relatively familiar with, such as Margaret Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood in any way being the basis for the wet Eurofederalism of Howe and later Blair. Then it comes to a crunching halt.

    The wets' ideas (if they can be called that) were very well established long before Thatcher came to power - before even Heath came to power. There is also no sense in which Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood legitimised their push for European statehood with the British public - the wet policy on European statehood has always been furious denial that such a thing exists, whilst working toward Britain's participation in it behind the scenes. It still is.


    No, it’s not.

    The Liberal Unionist strain within the Tory party valued international cooperation, free trade, fiscal discipline, social liberalism, freedom and a “one nation” mindset.

    That does not have anything to do with the EU.

    What you are mistaking is the mindset of Macmillian and his generation who were scarred by the first world war and saw the EU as a way to avoid that (and the second) reoccurring
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,559
    Very interesting threader from @Viewcode (as usual) but a little too much history and not enough geography. As traditional bread-basket lands dry up, but barren deserts are full of lithium, the old borders cannot hold. This is what will drive the economies (and the wars) of the near future, not sentimental attachment to ideas of nationhood.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,256
    Scott_xP said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    Those polyglot empires make the basic functioning of democracy much more difficult. It is no surprise that democracy started in well defined city states, was preserved in a debased form in geographically delimited Kingdoms and republics and, as Viewcode points out, was only really able to flourish after the Westphalian Treaties.

    Blair wanted an end to the Westphalian Settlement. What he was actually pushing for - though I don't accuse him of knowingly doing this - was an end to functional democracy.
    No, the EU was simply democracy on a larger scale. I appreciate that you never felt loyalty to the EU, but many of us did, and I was personally affronted when my European identity was stripped away, and that was true for many other Britons.

    Nationality has never been the be all and end all, whether within Empire or in other international bodies like the UN or NATO.
    Parochialism has been an absolute curse in this country. I blame our chauvanistic history books that told us we won the war which became ingrained into a generation who are now old but still around.
    Worse in the US.

    @NOELreports
    🇺🇸 Fox News host Jesse Watters: “We don’t need friends. If we have to burn some bridges with Denmark to take Greenland, so be it. We’re big boys. We dropped bombs on Japan, and now they’re our ally. America isn’t handcuffed by history.”
    https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1905927108712386791
    It feels like Trump's second coming has given vent to right wing Americans inner bonkersness. In fact not just Americans.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,911
    Very interesting header but I will digress.
    It seems to me that England as a distinct "nation" is being airbrushed out of existence.
    In the last census there was the usual question, "which nationality do you identify as?".
    In Scotland and Wales, Scotland/Wales was put first as an answer, above British, but in England, British had been subtly moved to be first above English.
    As an Englishman living in Scotland I am acutely aware of, and proud of , my English heritage.
    "It's all the fault of the bloody English, no offence, Alan!"
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,946
    Down to 1.6GW gas. -£4.65 per MWh. Fill yer boots, tears for Putin.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,388

    Viewcode's threads are always interesting and offer some fresh perspectives.

    They do not use references like a scholarly article, and why should they - they're only PB headers. Instead the ideas are introduced as self-evident truth. This is fine, it's a style.

    Until we hit something I'm actually relatively familiar with, such as Margaret Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood in any way being the basis for the wet Eurofederalism of Howe and later Blair. Then it comes to a crunching halt.

    The wets' ideas (if they can be called that) were very well established long before Thatcher came to power - before even Heath came to power. There is also no sense in which Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood legitimised their push for European statehood with the British public - the wet policy on European statehood has always been furious denial that such a thing exists, whilst working toward Britain's participation in it behind the scenes. It still is.


    No, it’s not.

    The Liberal Unionist strain within the Tory party valued international cooperation, free trade, fiscal discipline, social liberalism, freedom and a “one nation” mindset.

    That does not have anything to do with the EU.

    What you are mistaking is the mindset of Macmillian and his generation who were scarred by the first world war and saw the EU as a way to avoid that (and the second) reoccurring
    The 'advantage' that 'we' currently possess is that we are One Nation on an island. Our borders, since Scotland joined the Union are set by nature, unlike other 'Westphalian' states, whether in Europe or elsewhere. It heavily influences our upper class's thinking.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,258
    Scott_xP said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    Those polyglot empires make the basic functioning of democracy much more difficult. It is no surprise that democracy started in well defined city states, was preserved in a debased form in geographically delimited Kingdoms and republics and, as Viewcode points out, was only really able to flourish after the Westphalian Treaties.

    Blair wanted an end to the Westphalian Settlement. What he was actually pushing for - though I don't accuse him of knowingly doing this - was an end to functional democracy.
    No, the EU was simply democracy on a larger scale. I appreciate that you never felt loyalty to the EU, but many of us did, and I was personally affronted when my European identity was stripped away, and that was true for many other Britons.

    Nationality has never been the be all and end all, whether within Empire or in other international bodies like the UN or NATO.
    Parochialism has been an absolute curse in this country. I blame our chauvanistic history books that told us we won the war which became ingrained into a generation who are now old but still around.
    Worse in the US.

    @NOELreports
    🇺🇸 Fox News host Jesse Watters: “We don’t need friends. If we have to burn some bridges with Denmark to take Greenland, so be it. We’re big boys. We dropped bombs on Japan, and now they’re our ally. America isn’t handcuffed by history.”
    https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1905927108712386791
    In between dropping atomic bombs and becoming allies, Japan surrendered and was occupied by the US for 7 years. Is that the plan for former European allies and Canada? Sounds expensive.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,868
    Scott_xP said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Good article. I have had similar musings on Citizens of Nowhere and the effect of the Internet and Social Media on the national question.

    Benedict Anderson in his influential book "Imagined Communities" linked the rise of the nation state to the rise of a national press, and increased literacy. Communication as the spark to nationalism.

    That is now history. On this board I can argue politics with people on different continents, while my neighbours watch either Al Jazeera or satellite TV from India. I can read the Rand Daily Mail as easily as the British one.

    On my travels, I note that middle class and professional people are increasingly alike and internationalisd. We have common interests and aspirations and similar lifestyles. It's not just deluxe hotels serving gin and tonics to ageing roues that have become homogeneous.

    Is this the end of the Westphalian nation state? Or simply a return to what existed before? A return to polyglot multicultural empires, where loyalty was to class and individual, where French, German, Italian and British nobles felt more in common with each other than with the peasants that they ruled.

    In other words are we back under the Hapsburgs, Ottomans, Aztecs and Manchus?

    Those polyglot empires make the basic functioning of democracy much more difficult. It is no surprise that democracy started in well defined city states, was preserved in a debased form in geographically delimited Kingdoms and republics and, as Viewcode points out, was only really able to flourish after the Westphalian Treaties.

    Blair wanted an end to the Westphalian Settlement. What he was actually pushing for - though I don't accuse him of knowingly doing this - was an end to functional democracy.
    No, the EU was simply democracy on a larger scale. I appreciate that you never felt loyalty to the EU, but many of us did, and I was personally affronted when my European identity was stripped away, and that was true for many other Britons.

    Nationality has never been the be all and end all, whether within Empire or in other international bodies like the UN or NATO.
    Parochialism has been an absolute curse in this country. I blame our chauvanistic history books that told us we won the war which became ingrained into a generation who are now old but still around.
    Worse in the US.

    @NOELreports
    🇺🇸 Fox News host Jesse Watters: “We don’t need friends. If we have to burn some bridges with Denmark to take Greenland, so be it. We’re big boys. We dropped bombs on Japan, and now they’re our ally. America isn’t handcuffed by history.”
    https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1905927108712386791
    Watters in many ways is worse than Hannity. The contemptuous sneer as he dismisses the sane for their insanity whilst in almost the same moment eulogising Trump madness. It is quite compelling viewing.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,400
    Oh dear, what a pity, never mind

    https://x.com/JayinKyiv/status/1905911061498208579
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 795
    An excellent header, many thanks @viewcode . It's very nice to have a summary view that gives all the sources to work with.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,925
    It's gone up! Yay! I figured it'd go up around 12, so this is a pleasant surprise. As ever please make many comments on the article, both for and against, and I'll summarise them all at the end later today.

    Hope you are all having a pleasant Mothering Sunday.

    Kind regards,
    viewcode
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,435
    Scott_xP said:
    You're condoning arson?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,258

    Viewcode's threads are always interesting and offer some fresh perspectives.

    They do not use references like a scholarly article, and why should they - they're only PB headers. Instead the ideas are introduced as self-evident truth. This is fine, it's a style.

    Until we hit something I'm actually relatively familiar with, such as Margaret Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood in any way being the basis for the wet Eurofederalism of Howe and later Blair. Then it comes to a crunching halt.

    The wets' ideas (if they can be called that) were very well established long before Thatcher came to power - before even Heath came to power. There is also no sense in which Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood legitimised their push for European statehood with the British public - the wet policy on European statehood has always been furious denial that such a thing exists, whilst working toward Britain's participation in it behind the scenes. It still is.


    No, it’s not.

    The Liberal Unionist strain within the Tory party valued international cooperation, free trade, fiscal discipline, social liberalism, freedom and a “one nation” mindset.

    That does not have anything to do with the EU.

    What you are mistaking is the mindset of Macmillian and his generation who were scarred by the first world war and saw the EU as a way to avoid that (and the second) reoccurring
    The 'advantage' that 'we' currently possess is that we are One Nation on an island. Our borders, since Scotland joined the Union are set by nature, unlike other 'Westphalian' states, whether in Europe or elsewhere. It heavily influences our upper class's thinking.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2025/02/07/support-for-irish-unification-grows-but-unity-vote-would-be-soundly-defeated-in-north-poll-shows/

    This question is interesting:

    Imagine there was a referendum in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland, and a majority in both places voted for Northern Ireland to unify with the Republic of Ireland. Please indicate what your reaction would be…

    The percentage among NI protestants saying
    "Almost impossible to accept" has fallen from 32% in 2022 to 20% in 2024, and is now outnumbered by the percentage of protestants saying
    "Happily accept" (21% in 2022, 29% in 2024)
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,530
    FPT:
    Foxy said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Hate to dredge up Letby again, but WTF?

    https://unherd.com/newsroom/were-the-blood-tests-in-lucy-letbys-conviction-flawed/

    Note that the wildly inaccurate measurements claimed by the lab for the quality control sample are very similar to the ones reported for Baby L.

    The jury were instructed that they could rely on their assessment of the use of insulin by Letby to poison baby L & F to inform their opinion of her guilt in all the other deaths or injuries. They were also instructed that they could rely on the lab’s assessment of the insulin / C-peptide in the blood samples by the judge in his summing up.

    If the insulin tests were as wildly inaccurate as claimed, then the entire prosecution falls apart I think? The cross-admissibility instruction makes the rest of the convictions unsafe.

    The problem with that article is that it is high on hyperbole, and light on data. "Multiple false readings" sounds terrible... But is it multiple false readings over tens of tests, or millions of tests? Without that information, it's hard to get a handle on whether it is likely that the insulin - c-peptide levels measured were likely the result of measurement error (and there were no murders), or not.
    A fair criticism. But if you send a bunch of tests to a lab & one of them comes back out by a factor of eight then it’s utility as a forensic test is surely fatally compromised?

    At the very least, the jury should have been accurately informed of what level of confidence they should place in the insulin / C-peptide tests. Instead the judge told them they could have absolute confidence in the reported values.
    According to the linked adverse event report the manufacturer of the test says (I paraphrase): “yep, sometimes the test over-reads by a factor of ten & this is completely normal behaviour”. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/detail.cfm?mdrfoi__id=17817409&pc=CFP
    A factor of ten out is no where near large enough to account for the imbalance of insulin and c peptide in the baby.

    "Blood samples taken from Child F returned an "extremely high" insulin level of 4,657 and a very low C-peptide level of less than 169, indicating synthetic insulin was in his system."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-63808514

    The C peptide would naturally be higher than the insulin. It would take an assay to be 2 orders of magnitude out to explain the result.
    @Foxy Just replying to this late (was out at the opera last night) because I think it needs highlighting.

    In the linked Unherd article the QC sample was reported by the lab shortly after the Letby samples were analysed as having a C-Peptide level that was much too low: 130 instead of the real value 873.5. That’s a factor of ~7 difference in C-peptide levels.

    You (& the court) have placed great weight on the difference between C-peptide & insulin levels as being of primary importance in this case, yet it seems that this assay / lab can & has returned false results where the C-peptide / insulin ratio is completely wrong & wrong with the kind of ratios reported in the Letby case.

    It’s possible that this was a one-off mis-handling of the QC sample of course. I would really like to see an explanation of how these wild mis-readings in both insulin & c-peptide can happen & why that would not apply to the babies in this case. Otherwise it seems that the reliability of this central evidence has been undermined - the jury should have been told that false readings of the levels they were being told about were entirely possible.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,115

    Viewcode's threads are always interesting and offer some fresh perspectives.

    They do not use references like a scholarly article, and why should they - they're only PB headers. Instead the ideas are introduced as self-evident truth. This is fine, it's a style.

    Until we hit something I'm actually relatively familiar with, such as Margaret Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood in any way being the basis for the wet Eurofederalism of Howe and later Blair. Then it comes to a crunching halt.

    The wets' ideas (if they can be called that) were very well established long before Thatcher came to power - before even Heath came to power. There is also no sense in which Thatcher's philosophy on nationhood legitimised their push for European statehood with the British public - the wet policy on European statehood has always been furious denial that such a thing exists, whilst working toward Britain's participation in it behind the scenes. It still is.


    No, it’s not.

    The Liberal Unionist strain within the Tory party valued international cooperation, free trade, fiscal discipline, social liberalism, freedom and a “one nation” mindset.

    That does not have anything to do with the EU.

    What you are mistaking is the mindset of Macmillian and his generation who were scarred by the first world war and saw the EU as a way to avoid that (and the second) reoccurring
    The 'advantage' that 'we' currently possess is that we are One Nation on an island. Our borders, since Scotland joined the Union are set by nature, unlike other 'Westphalian' states, whether in Europe or elsewhere. It heavily influences our upper class's thinking.
    Are we 'One Nation' though? We're a unitary state and a country on an island, but despite the best efforts of the BBC ('our national broadcaster') and Unionism I'd say the efforts to promote a British one nation sensibility aren't looking entirely successful. As I've bored on before the state is an idea and the nation is a feeling, but a lot of people aren't feeling it. It's a nice irony that the Orange Order and immigrants (& children of) are two groups very likely to identify as primarily British.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,580
    Fishing said:

    Shocked.

    Police investigate ‘Turkish’ barber shops over money laundering

    The National Crime Agency has overseen dozens of raids in the past month and believes many are a front for money laundering, tax fraud and illegal immigrants


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-investigate-turkish-barber-shops-over-money-laundering-jw7vtzhxx

    What is the difference between a front for tax fraud and people just not declaring all their income? At least Turkish barbers provide a service.

    Maybe the NCA should have a look at mobile phone thieves who also fiddle the tax on their ill-gotten gains, before moving on to drug dealers and northern child rape gangs driving minicabs on the side. It worked for Eliot Ness.
    The front shops *are* where the profits of other crimes are being laundered.

    Remember when every Big Criminal owned a scrap yard?

    In the case of the barbers, a number of them are associated with known drug dealers.
    Hopefully it's the profits of crimes outside the UK being laundered, then at least it's helping the BOP.
    Not just the BoP - it will increase productive investment, employment and consumption through multiplier effects, and help fund public services as tax is paid on the newly legitimate savings. Much better than if the money is kept as cash in a storage shed a la Breaking Bad.

    If you take the initial crimes as a sunk cost,
    or don't care about them because they were
    committed abroad, money laundering is an
    economically beneficial activity.
    Only if you ignore the reputational impact on legitimate business, plus the fact that criminal rapidly turn from money laundering to other crimes

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,868
    ...

    Scott_xP said:
    You're condoning arson?
    Condoning arson seems like a misdemeanor charge compared to being accused of shilling for an adjudicated rapist and seditious traitor.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,258
    Scott_xP said:
    Could be an insurance job, a Tesla dealer needing cashflow with a bunch of unsellable cars...

    Of course if it's terrorism then I guess the insurance won't pay out...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,115

    Scott_xP said:
    You're condoning arson?
    You'd better let the appropriate authorities know.



    https://x.com/YourAnonCentral/status/1906127583194018013


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