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This polling may trigger some people – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,384
edited March 22 in General
This polling may trigger some people – politicalbetting.com

I have always been quite dismissive of people when it comes to the Ship of Theseus philosophical question who say it is the same ship.

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Comments

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,357
    Am I first?
    I thought this question referred to George Washington's axe!
  • FffsFffs Posts: 90
    There's an interesting cultural dimension to this question - for example in Japan people seem quite happy to say that a temple is a thousand years old even if it has burnt to the ground and been rebuilt from scratch many times in the intervening years.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    Uruguay is brilliant. This opinion is unconnected to the fact they are now basically force feeding me superb Uruguayan wine by the litre, like a hunger striker in H block but my dirty protest consists of mildly scathing tweets about steaks
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,645
    It’s a perennially interesting question.

    Applies to national and ethnic identity too, so perhaps more relevant to the discussions on the last thread than you’d think.

    Meanwhile in TimS manor it’s sleepover night. 7 very noisy children. They’ve started with a treasure hunt and are now enjoying bubble tea. Not going to be a relaxing next few hours.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,645
    AugustusCarp2 said:

    I once saw the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in concert. Not a single member of the original line-up, I kid you not.

    Same with Arsenal FC. Not a single one of the original team, nor the same stadium. Not even the same part of London.
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 265
    TimS said:

    show previous quotes
    Same with Arsenal FC. Not a single one of the original team, nor the same stadium. Not even the same part of London.
    Indeed, I have heard some people say they are not in the same league.......
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,409
    The first time I encountered this it was called "Trigger's Broom"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,740
    We have some actual examples. Wooden ships were designed and expected to be like this - if you don’t steadily replace bits, it stops being useful.

    - HMS Victory
    - The Cutty Sark

    Both are below 50% original.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,360
    Daveyboy1961 said:

    The first time I encountered this it was called "Trigger's Broom"

    Yay, somebody spotted my subtle reference to Only Fools and Horses in the headline.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,360
    No_Offence_Alan said:

    If you want to start a fight in half of Glasgow, suggest Rangers football club is only 13 years old.

    Please, Sevco.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,139
    TimS said:

    It’s a perennially interesting question.

    Applies to national and ethnic identity too, so perhaps more relevant to the discussions on the last thread than you’d think.

    Meanwhile in TimS manor it’s sleepover night. 7 very noisy children. They’ve started with a treasure hunt and are now enjoying bubble tea. Not going to be a relaxing next few hours.

    Thoughts and prayers.

    One of my memories of five years ago was when Things 1 and 2 were given the opportunity to do "Guide Camp... But at home!"

    On topic- the same question can be asked of political parties. How far can a party restaff, retool and rethink and still be recognisably the same?

    Alternatively, how much do the Conservatives have to replace to put the horrors of 2019-24 behind them?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,409
    Like Village people singing YMCA
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,645
    Stuartinromford said:

    show previous quotes
    Thoughts and prayers.

    One of my memories of five years ago was when Things 1 and 2 were given the opportunity to do "Guide Camp... But at home!"

    On topic- the same question can be asked of political parties. How far can a party restaff, retool and rethink and still be recognisably the same?

    Alternatively, how much do the Conservatives have to replace to put the horrors of 2019-24 behind them?
    The GOP has notably replaced both the handle and the brush in the last decade.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,045
    Malmesbury said:

    We have some actual examples. Wooden ships were designed and expected to be like this - if you don’t steadily replace bits, it stops being useful.

    - HMS Victory
    - The Cutty Sark

    Both are below 50% original.

    And steam locos had similar issues, as parts were readily swapped. A loco's boiler would be removed for repair, and another, new or repaired one, placed on the old frames. Therefore the most visible section; the boiler, would probably not be the one it was built with. Ditto cabs, wheels, etc. And even frames might have parts swapped out with others.

    So, as an example, how much of Flying Scotsman is actually Flying Scotsman? The answer is: not much.

    "Well, it mainly consists of the rear two thirds of the frames, part of the cab sides and some parts of the motion and possibly the driving wheel splashers.

    https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/how-much-flying-scotsman-original/

    There have also been investigations into how much of Rocket is original. The answer is: not much, especially as it was rebuilt several times, even in its early service.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,146
    Leon said:

    Uruguay is brilliant. This opinion is unconnected to the fact they are now basically force feeding me superb Uruguayan wine by the litre, like a hunger striker in H block but my dirty protest consists of mildly scathing tweets about steaks

    Is from the Garzon estate?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,927
    I think I'm in the 29% - at least when it comes to bicycles. It's more of an emotional thing, particularly if you've spent the time and effort to replace parts (and eventually the frame) rather than stick it in the bin the moment it plays up.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,045
    Pope not dead:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crrdv84rg4do
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,305
    Of course it's not the same broom but of course it seems like the same broom. In my experience of brooms, the two parts both last so long the broom is an heirloom anyway.
  • FffsFffs Posts: 90
    edited March 22
    Eabhal said:

    I think I'm in the 29% - at least when it comes to bicycles. It's more of an emotional thing, particularly if you've spent the time and effort to replace parts (and eventually the frame) rather than stick it in the bin the moment it plays up.

    Interesting - I have replaced almost everything except the frame on mine, but if I bought a new frame and transfered all the existing components I think I would consider it a new bike.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    slade said:

    show previous quotes
    Is from the Garzon estate?
    Don’t know. I know they’re the most famous

    Uruguay is a deceptive country. On the face of it, really boring. But if you dig deeper, it’s REALLY boring

    However if you then gird your loins and go beyond the call of duty, the boringness is explained and it’s really fascinating

    Eg Uruguay has no indigenous people, per se. Why? Because it completely exterminated the locals - the churria - in perhaps the most efficient genocide in history. In the end just four were left; and they were sent to Paris to be exhibited


    The last died as a beggar “somewhere in France”
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,927
    edited March 22
    Fffs said:

    show previous quotes
    Interesting - I have replaced almost everything except the frame on mine, but if I bought a new frame and transfered all the existing components I think I would consider it a new bike.
    Perhaps - if more than 50% of the value/weight of the parts have been there for more than 50% of the life of the bike, then it's the same bike? In my head they have a kind of soul - I certainly developed a strong attachment to the car I climbed all my Munros with*, for example.

    * Not literally, though Clarkson did bag Cnoc an Fhreiceadain with a Discovery.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    I think Noom might be like water. If you dig deep and hard enough, you will find it

    But in some places it just burbles and geysers on the surface, like oil in Azerbaijan
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,104
    edited March 22
    It's a stupid, pointless question.

    The point about a broom is utility, not attitude to it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,369
    Also known as the Sugababes question.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,582
    Is an 80 year old the same person as the new born baby 80 years earlier?

    The key in my mind is continuity of existence.

    Incremental changes until none of the original remains equates to continuity of existence, and therefore the entity (be it broom, ship or girl band) is the same.

    This is a topic I really enjoyed in my PPE degree. It wasn't really covered in ChemEng.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,215
    So long as there is any continuity the 29% are correct and I'm in the 29%

    The Conservative Party dates back to the 19th century (not the Tories that HYUFD loves of the 17th century) but not a single person alive then is alive today. There still exists a form of continuity though, even though the people who make up the party have changed many times over.

    LFC in the time I've followed them have replaced all their players and manager many times over. It's still the same club.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,960
    carnforth said:

    show previous quotes
    More people work in that industry in the UK than in 2016. See the "Core Biopharma" (lighter blue) bars here:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1344913/biopharmaceutical-employment-in-the-uk/

    Meanwhile, the EU continues to regulate R&D away:

    https://www.efpia.eu/news-events/the-efpia-view/statements-press-releases/germany-belgium-and-france-among-those-hit-hardest-as-commission-s-pharma-legislation-proposals-risk-europe-losing-a-third-of-its-share-of-global-rd-by-2040/
    To be fair, employment in pharma worldwide has increased quite significantly in the last nine years, so it's entirely possible you are both right.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,960
    As a philosophy graduate, the answer to this one is clear and obvious.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,793
    It depends I think whether you see the broom as a physical object or as an object performing a function.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,960
    OldKingCole said:

    Am I first?
    I thought this question referred to George Washington's axe!

    I think it's originally the ship of Theseus.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 622
    So your partner gets new teeth, hair implants, a boob job, filler in their face, and a butt lift. Do you have a new partner?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,215
    Battlebus said:

    So your partner gets new teeth, hair implants, a boob job, filler in their face, and a butt lift. Do you have a new partner?

    Yes, after leaving the plastic surgery obsessed partner.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    Battlebus said:

    So your partner gets new teeth, hair implants, a boob job, filler in their face, and a butt lift. Do you have a new partner?

    Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just get a hooker?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,494
    edited March 22
    rcs1000 said:

    show previous quotes
    To be fair, employment in pharma worldwide has increased quite significantly in the last nine years, so it's entirely possible you are both right.
    Indeed. Sadly, Google was unable to come up with figure for France etc.

    Personally I'd allow any EU, US, Japanese etc. approved drug in, subject to basic checks only.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 622
    DOGE - Dangerous Oligarchs Grabbing Everything. Seems an odd name for a government department.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,104
    edited March 22
    carnforth said:

    show previous quotes
    Indeed. Sadly, Google was unable to come up with figure for France etc.

    Personally I'd allow any EU, US, Japanese etc. approved drug in, subject to basic checks only.
    carnforth said:

    show previous quotes
    Indeed. Sadly, Google was unable to come up with figure for France etc.

    Personally I'd allow any EU, US, Japanese etc. approved drug in, subject to basic checks only.
    Another reason why, the post-Brexit situation having proved wanting, we need to move back towards the single market. Pronto.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    edited March 22
    Jose Ignacio is extremely charming in march (late summer). It’s probably very exciting in high summer. Full of rich hedonistic argentines and Brazilians

    But my god it must be dull the rest of the year. It gets COLD here. And grey and windy

    So wtf did Martin Amis do for the other 7-8 months of the year? I bet he was bored witless

    It’s in Uruguay FFS. You can’t drive to Primrose Hill. Or Brooklyn
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,360
    The ECB is interested in building a £500million roofed stadium capable of staging Test cricket and other major matches regardless of the weather and potentially outside of the English summer.

    It would be the first of its kind in this country and the largest infrastructure project ever undertaken in English cricket.

    There are various reasons behind the idea but a key factor is the recent sale of stakes in the Hundred, which raised more than £525million and has transformed the game’s financial position. The ECB’s membership of first-class counties was previously burdened with around £200million of debt.

    The case for covered stadiums has been made by recent rainfall patterns — October 2022 to March 2024 was the wettest 18 months on record in England — but also the historically temperate nature of the English weather. More than 100 days of Test cricket in England have been entirely washed out, or one day lost for every 5.25 Tests played.

    Old Trafford in Manchester is by a distance the worst-hit venue, losing on average one day’s play for every 2.7 Tests it stages. The fact that England were denied a 3-2 win in the 2023 Ashes by heavy rain across the last two days of the Manchester Test still rankles.

    The ECB chairman, Richard Thompson, is a leading proponent of the scheme and has identified Manchester as the region most in need of a covered stadium. “It has to happen and the stats point to there [Manchester] as a venue,” he said. After such a large financial windfall, it is felt this is the right time to be bold.

    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/cricket/article/indoor-cricket-stadium-england-ecb-hobart-cgkbh3kp6
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,190
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The ECB is interested in building a £500million roofed stadium capable of staging Test cricket and other major matches regardless of the weather and potentially outside of the English summer.

    It would be the first of its kind in this country and the largest infrastructure project ever undertaken in English cricket.

    There are various reasons behind the idea but a key factor is the recent sale of stakes in the Hundred, which raised more than £525million and has transformed the game’s financial position. The ECB’s membership of first-class counties was previously burdened with around £200million of debt.

    The case for covered stadiums has been made by recent rainfall patterns — October 2022 to March 2024 was the wettest 18 months on record in England — but also the historically temperate nature of the English weather. More than 100 days of Test cricket in England have been entirely washed out, or one day lost for every 5.25 Tests played.

    Old Trafford in Manchester is by a distance the worst-hit venue, losing on average one day’s play for every 2.7 Tests it stages. The fact that England were denied a 3-2 win in the 2023 Ashes by heavy rain across the last two days of the Manchester Test still rankles.

    The ECB chairman, Richard Thompson, is a leading proponent of the scheme and has identified Manchester as the region most in need of a covered stadium. “It has to happen and the stats point to there [Manchester] as a venue,” he said. After such a large financial windfall, it is felt this is the right time to be bold.

    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/cricket/article/indoor-cricket-stadium-england-ecb-hobart-cgkbh3kp6

    How is that controlled atmosphere going to impact swing?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,190
    I believe every element of the B52 bomber has been replaced. Not an original rivet. Should at least be a B53...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,789
    Triggers' broom may seem obvious - it isn't the same, but when it comes to, say replacing bit by bit thousands of part of a boat so that in the end all are replaced (the ship of Theseus) while all the time at sea on a voyage the answer looks different. As it does if you ask about the cell by cell replacement of most or all of baby Bloggs once baby Bloggs is 90 yearsold.

    Ancient answers remain, IMO, the best: identity is not conferred by stuff but by certain sorts of continuity (baby Bloggs and 90 year old Bloggs are the same person but different stuff).

    Which means that what any item is in essence, in the deepest sense, is not identified with stuff or matter, but of a non material thing called form. Aristotle was right all along. His analysis of objects has never been surpassed.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,789
    MattW said:

    It's a stupid, pointless question.

    The point about a broom is utility, not attitude to it.

    It is a deeply important question. If the nature of identity issues (like Triggers' broom) didn't matter then mothers X and Y could accidently swap their babies A and B without it mattering. And person Z performing function C could be killed and replaced by person T performing the same function without moral significance.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,561
    edited March 22
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The ECB is interested in building a £500million roofed stadium capable of staging Test cricket and other major matches regardless of the weather and potentially outside of the English summer.

    It would be the first of its kind in this country and the largest infrastructure project ever undertaken in English cricket.

    There are various reasons behind the idea but a key factor is the recent sale of stakes in the Hundred, which raised more than £525million and has transformed the game’s financial position. The ECB’s membership of first-class counties was previously burdened with around £200million of debt.

    The case for covered stadiums has been made by recent rainfall patterns — October 2022 to March 2024 was the wettest 18 months on record in England — but also the historically temperate nature of the English weather. More than 100 days of Test cricket in England have been entirely washed out, or one day lost for every 5.25 Tests played.

    Old Trafford in Manchester is by a distance the worst-hit venue, losing on average one day’s play for every 2.7 Tests it stages. The fact that England were denied a 3-2 win in the 2023 Ashes by heavy rain across the last two days of the Manchester Test still rankles.

    The ECB chairman, Richard Thompson, is a leading proponent of the scheme and has identified Manchester as the region most in need of a covered stadium. “It has to happen and the stats point to there [Manchester] as a venue,” he said. After such a large financial windfall, it is felt this is the right time to be bold.

    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/cricket/article/indoor-cricket-stadium-england-ecb-hobart-cgkbh3kp6

    Can somebody explain the attraction of The Hundred to me?

    It is a competition between teams I have never heard of and to whom I have no allegiance playing a form of the game more akin to baseball or beach cricket than the game I grew up with and learned to love.

    I guess it's my age, in which case I have to say that one consolation of growing old is that I don't have to bother with it.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,573
    Entirely off-topic, but I am going to have to watch Adolescence again. Will it demolish me as utterly as it did the first time?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,515
    edited March 22
    I always feel a new man after a shave, but I know I'm not really. It's all in the mind. Ditto the broom.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,645
    algarkirk said:

    show previous quotes
    It is a deeply important question. If the nature of identity issues (like Triggers' broom) didn't matter then mothers X and Y could accidently swap their babies A and B without it mattering. And person Z performing function C could be killed and replaced by person T performing the same function without moral significance.
    I’d be interested in seeing a PB vote on this. Do we reflect the nation?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,561
    Leon said:

    Jose Ignacio is extremely charming in march (late summer). It’s probably very exciting in high summer. Full of rich hedonistic argentines and Brazilians

    But my god it must be dull the rest of the year. It gets COLD here. And grey and windy

    So wtf did Martin Amis do for the other 7-8 months of the year? I bet he was bored witless

    It’s in Uruguay FFS. You can’t drive to Primrose Hill. Or Brooklyn

    It's nice to think of him being bored witless rather than his readers.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,030
    The Ship of Theseus/Trigger’s broom issue is the same as the old “a man can never step into the same river twice as they will be a different man and it will be a different river.”
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,360
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    show previous quotes
    Can somebody explain the attraction of The Hundred to me?

    It is a competition between teams I have never heard of and to whom I have no allegiance playing a form of the game more akin to baseball or beach cricket than the game I grew up with and learned to love.

    I guess it's my age, in which case I have to say that one consolation of growing old is that I don't have to bother with it.
    So, I spoke to somebody at one of the test venue counties, The Hundred is designed to attract new fans.

    The reality is unless you have Sky or attend a fee paying school then cricket isn't something youngsters experience.

    Boring old farts like thee and me are already into cricket, but they want a new generation of fans.

    Why they didn't use the T20 Blast rather than creating The Hundred is beyond me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    show previous quotes
    It's nice to think of him being bored witless rather than his readers.

    lol

    I have a soft spot for Mart. His plotting was generally terrible and his dialogue pretty poor but he conjured some of the sharpest observations in modern British fiction AND he was, at his best, genuinely lol funny

    Very few writers can do that. I’ve had to put down more than one Martin Amis book because laughing too hard

    He’s also extremely good on the perils and travails of masculinity. Perhaps because he knew it from both sides - he was a highly intelligent witty successful handsome man. Alpha plus. But given the tiny stature of a deltoid
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,462
    RochdalePioneers said:

    Adolescence.
    I watched Episode 1 on a (4 hours late) plane. Alternately tearing up and sitting with my mouth hanging open. Not just the content and the acting - which were both brutal - its the realisation about 17 minutes in that its a single shot.
    Episode 2 had been cued up by Clarkson asking "how did they shoot that, its impossible". And it is, and yet here we are
    Episode 3 will be studied in acting schools for decades
    Episode 4 had me practically weeping at the end

    I know, I'm going on about it like Leon goes on about Covid. Sorry...

    Given that our esteemed PM talked about this documentary in PMQs, it seems to me that Netflix should make it free to watch.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,645
    Leon said:

    show previous quotes

    lol

    I have a soft spot for Mart. His plotting was generally terrible and his dialogue pretty poor but he conjured some of the sharpest observations in modern British fiction AND he was, at his best, genuinely lol funny

    Very few writers can do that. I’ve had to put down more than one Martin Amis book because laughing too hard

    He’s also extremely good on the perils and travails of masculinity. Perhaps because he knew it from both sides - he was a highly intelligent witty successful handsome man. Alpha plus. But given the tiny stature of a deltoid
    He’s litfic though…
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,630
    RochdalePioneers said:

    Adolescence.
    I watched Episode 1 on a (4 hours late) plane. Alternately tearing up and sitting with my mouth hanging open. Not just the content and the acting - which were both brutal - its the realisation about 17 minutes in that its a single shot.
    Episode 2 had been cued up by Clarkson asking "how did they shoot that, its impossible". And it is, and yet here we are
    Episode 3 will be studied in acting schools for decades
    Episode 4 had me practically weeping at the end

    I know, I'm going on about it like Leon goes on about Covid. Sorry...

    Hmmm can I suggest you may not be that critical an audience, it was tripe
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,360
    RochdalePioneers said:

    Adolescence.
    I watched Episode 1 on a (4 hours late) plane. Alternately tearing up and sitting with my mouth hanging open. Not just the content and the acting - which were both brutal - its the realisation about 17 minutes in that its a single shot.
    Episode 2 had been cued up by Clarkson asking "how did they shoot that, its impossible". And it is, and yet here we are
    Episode 3 will be studied in acting schools for decades
    Episode 4 had me practically weeping at the end

    I know, I'm going on about it like Leon goes on about Covid. Sorry...

    Race baiting twat Elon Musk is getting involved.

    https://x.com/Shayan86/status/1903437283153383687
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,860
    Eabhal said:

    show previous quotes
    Perhaps - if more than 50% of the value/weight of the parts have been there for more than 50% of the life of the bike, then it's the same bike? In my head they have a kind of soul - I certainly developed a strong attachment to the car I climbed all my Munros with*, for example.

    * Not literally, though Clarkson did bag Cnoc an Fhreiceadain with a Discovery.
    I think most people would have a very strong prejudice against saying that they weren't the same person they used to be, because most of the cells in their body have been replaced by new ones.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,225
    Battlebus said:

    So your partner gets new teeth, hair implants, a boob job, filler in their face, and a butt lift. Do you have a new partner?

    Depends whether she's still under guarantee
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,215
    RochdalePioneers said:

    Adolescence.
    I watched Episode 1 on a (4 hours late) plane. Alternately tearing up and sitting with my mouth hanging open. Not just the content and the acting - which were both brutal - its the realisation about 17 minutes in that its a single shot.
    Episode 2 had been cued up by Clarkson asking "how did they shoot that, its impossible". And it is, and yet here we are
    Episode 3 will be studied in acting schools for decades
    Episode 4 had me practically weeping at the end

    I know, I'm going on about it like Leon goes on about Covid. Sorry...

    Absolutely 💯 agreed.

    Most stunning thing I've seen in many years. Emotional, powerful and so cleverly done in just one shot.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,409
    RochdalePioneers said:

    Adolescence.
    I watched Episode 1 on a (4 hours late) plane. Alternately tearing up and sitting with my mouth hanging open. Not just the content and the acting - which were both brutal - its the realisation about 17 minutes in that its a single shot.
    Episode 2 had been cued up by Clarkson asking "how did they shoot that, its impossible". And it is, and yet here we are
    Episode 3 will be studied in acting schools for decades
    Episode 4 had me practically weeping at the end

    I know, I'm going on about it like Leon goes on about Covid. Sorry...

    I binge watched it last week. It was excellent. Episode 2 in the school brought back really bad memories of particularly awful year 8 and year 9 classes. The video lessons are sometimes the only way a teacher can make it through the day. School kids can be real bastards sometimes.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,078
    Pagan2 said:

    show previous quotes
    Hmmm can I suggest you may not be that critical an audience, it was tripe
    I don’t have Netflix so I haven’t seen it .
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,377
    edited March 22
    @carnforth fpt, thanks for your reply. It is a classic error to say but employment in this sector increased post Brexit and therefore Brexit didn't harm it. In the example I gave for instance the Irish operation was being transferred to the UK. That was cancelled. Much of the UK and EU operation was outsourced to India from the UK now the UK had moved out of the EU. There was no longer a reason for keeping it here. The medicine agency for all of Europe was moved out of the UK. Medicine labeling for NI was a disaster because it came under two conflicting rules.

    Just because employment has increased in a sector doesn't mean it would have not increased by much more. That is flawed logic. What is more, much of the increase was due to duplication of work eg the Medicine Agency and NI issue.

    Brexit was nothing short of a disaster for Pharma in the UK. The fact that Pharma is a success in the UK is despite Brexit.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,645
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    show previous quotes
    Race baiting twat Elon Musk is getting involved.

    https://x.com/Shayan86/status/1903437283153383687
    Elon’s little one line comments below the line on Twitter are a direct insight into what this new US Government is all about.

    We should have listened when he started retweeting anti-Ukraine diatribes.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,409
    RochdalePioneers said:

    Adolescence.
    I watched Episode 1 on a (4 hours late) plane. Alternately tearing up and sitting with my mouth hanging open. Not just the content and the acting - which were both brutal - its the realisation about 17 minutes in that its a single shot.
    Episode 2 had been cued up by Clarkson asking "how did they shoot that, its impossible". And it is, and yet here we are
    Episode 3 will be studied in acting schools for decades
    Episode 4 had me practically weeping at the end

    I know, I'm going on about it like Leon goes on about Covid. Sorry...

    Single shot movies are defined as one shot or looking like one shot. It was really well done though.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,078
    tlg86 said:

    show previous quotes
    Given that our esteemed PM talked about this documentary in PMQs, it seems to me that Netflix should make it free to watch.
    It’s a drama isn’t it ?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,630
    Taz said:

    show previous quotes
    I don’t have Netflix so I haven’t seen it .
    I would choose the words banal and anodyne to describe it frankly......but then we all have our own take on things so watch it and do you.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,986
    Leon said:

    show previous quotes

    lol

    I have a soft spot for Mart. His plotting was generally terrible and his dialogue pretty poor but he conjured some of the sharpest observations in modern British fiction AND he was, at his best, genuinely lol funny

    Very few writers can do that. I’ve had to put down more than one Martin Amis book because laughing too hard

    He’s also extremely good on the perils and travails of masculinity. Perhaps because he knew it from both sides - he was a highly intelligent witty successful handsome man. Alpha plus. But given the tiny stature of a deltoid
    Most writers would give their arms in exchange for a bag of only a 1/100 of Amis's crafted sentences.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,573
    BartholomewRoberts said:

    show previous quotes
    Absolutely 💯 agreed.

    Most stunning thing I've seen in many years. Emotional, powerful and so cleverly done in just one shot.
    Its release comes at an interesting time. I read the link TSE posted - so the culture war wazzocks think that any program must be about the events that exorcise them and be from the perspective they are wedded to.

    Problem is that they are inside the very worst kind of bullshit bubble. Their facts are fiction, their perspectives false, their concerns twisted.

    Adolescence cuts straight through this. But for them? Appalling that the killer wasn't an immigrant muslim. Like ALL offenders are in the real world...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,645
    edited March 22
    kjh said:

    @carnforth fpt, thanks for your reply. It is a classic error to say but employment in this sector increased post Brexit and therefore Brexit didn't harm it. In the example I gave for instance the Irish operation was being transferred to the UK. That was cancelled. Much of the UK and EU operation was outsourced to India from the UK now the UK had moved out of the EU. There was no longer a reason for keeping it here. The medicine agency for all of Europe was moved out of the UK. Medicine labeling for NI was a disaster because it came under two conflicting rules.

    Just because employment has increased in a sector doesn't mean it would have not increased by much more. That is flawed logic. What is more, much of the increase was due to duplication of work eg the Medicine Agency and NI issue.

    Brexit was nothing short of a disaster for Pharma in the UK. The fact that Pharma is a success in the UK is despite Brexit.

    Life sciences was the sector I worked with most in the period after the Brexit vote, to get them ready. I would agree it’s probably one of the 2 or 3 sectors that has objectively lost most - investment, IP ownership, manufacturing - from the upheaval. Along with chemicals and automotive.

    The EMA in London was a huge loss, to both us and the EU. Extremely effective agency and a magnet around which European HQs clustered.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,731
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    show previous quotes
    Race baiting twat Elon Musk is getting involved.

    https://x.com/Shayan86/status/1903437283153383687
    They can't even get their facts right. There is no killing on a bus in Adolescence.
    Which, by the way, is a work of fiction and of complete genius.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,573
    Daveyboy1961 said:

    show previous quotes
    Single shot movies are defined as one shot or looking like one shot. It was really well done though.
    Each episode really was one single continuous shot. Episode 3? 52 minutes. Of which Erin Doherty is the central character for all 52 minutes. Acting mostly across from a young actor who's acting is so intense that I'm not sure she was actually needing to act at the end.

    Even if you set all of that aside and just look at the cinematography its a tour-de-force
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,215
    RochdalePioneers said:

    show previous quotes
    Its release comes at an interesting time. I read the link TSE posted - so the culture war wazzocks think that any program must be about the events that exorcise them and be from the perspective they are wedded to.

    Problem is that they are inside the very worst kind of bullshit bubble. Their facts are fiction, their perspectives false, their concerns twisted.

    Adolescence cuts straight through this. But for them? Appalling that the killer wasn't an immigrant muslim. Like ALL offenders are in the real world...
    For me the creepiest moment in the series was almost a throwaway line but where the guy working in the hardware store tells the father that he's on the son's side.

    Demonstrates well that level of horrific, twisted bullshit.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,462
    Taz said:

    show previous quotes
    It’s a drama isn’t it ?
    Starmer called it a documentary:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZnzEZ_CyfA

    Yes, he corrected himself, but I think it was quite revealing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,986
    Blue Georgia
    @BlueATLGeorgia
    Andrew Sullivan: "I do not care about the economy if the government in this country claims it can break down anyone's doors, seize anyone with no due process, put them on a plane, and send them to a foreign jail...

    https://x.com/BlueATLGeorgia/status/1903288845128319421
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,986
    Is the UK prepared for the wave of visa applicants from US who will need to escape Trump 2.0 the way things are going?

    Perhaps we should be offering top scientists and engineers a visa deal?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,104
    edited March 22
    algarkirk said:

    show previous quotes
    It is a deeply important question. If the nature of identity issues (like Triggers' broom) didn't matter then mothers X and Y could accidently swap their babies A and B without it mattering. And person Z performing function C could be killed and replaced by person T performing the same function without moral significance.
    A question about a person is different to a question about a broom. :wink: I was specifically commenting on a broom.

    Is there a specific word for anthropomorphism when applied to brooms?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,377
    edited March 22
    Daveyboy1961 said:

    show previous quotes
    Single shot movies are defined as one shot or looking like one shot. It was really well done though.
    The other day I saw some film of the filming showing the actors handing over the camera to each other to make it a single shot. One was filming outside of a car and then the camera handed over to an actor in the car filming outside of it. Another was an actor filming people walking in front of her, She hands the camera over to one of the people she is filming, who now films her walking in front of them.

    It looked impossible yet the scenes were seamless. No sign of the handover of the camera. Absolutely brilliant watching it done, but I would have been oblivious of it just watching the scenes, as I guess it should be.

    Brilliant skill.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,986
    tlg86 said:

    show previous quotes
    Starmer called it a documentary:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZnzEZ_CyfA

    Yes, he corrected himself, but I think it was quite revealing.
    There's a rich seam of dramas that are basically documentaries: 'Cathy Come Home' being possibly the original.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,561
    Leon said:

    show previous quotes

    lol

    I have a soft spot for Mart. His plotting was generally terrible and his dialogue pretty poor but he conjured some of the sharpest observations in modern British fiction AND he was, at his best, genuinely lol funny

    Very few writers can do that. I’ve had to put down more than one Martin Amis book because laughing too hard

    He’s also extremely good on the perils and travails of masculinity. Perhaps because he knew it from both sides - he was a highly intelligent witty successful handsome man. Alpha plus. But given the tiny stature of a deltoid
    Thanks, Leon, but I wasn't being entirely serious. May I ask you a perfectly serious one though?

    What do you think of Wolfe Hall, or more specifically Hilary Mantel?

    I gave up after 140 pages. It wasn't the topic, which I love, or the contrarian view of More and Cromwell, which intrigued me. It was the strange affected 'literary' style that did for me.

    Is that just me, or does she rub your fur up the wrong way too?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,411
    At work one of my instruments is a veritable NMR version of Triggers broom. Basic components are a large magnet, a console and a sample changer. In my time at Bath there have been three consoles (one from Varian and two from Bruker), two magnets (one each Oxford Instrumnets and Bruker) and two sample changers. Through all those changes at least one part has remained from the previous version so it has always maintained that link.

    Sadly in the autumn it will be completely replaced, and thus cease being Trigger’s 400 MHz NMR spectrometer…
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,927
    edited March 22
    RochdalePioneers said:

    show previous quotes
    Its release comes at an interesting time. I read the link TSE posted - so the culture war wazzocks think that any program must be about the events that exorcise them and be from the perspective they are wedded to.

    Problem is that they are inside the very worst kind of bullshit bubble. Their facts are fiction, their perspectives false, their concerns twisted.

    Adolescence cuts straight through this. But for them? Appalling that the killer wasn't an immigrant muslim. Like ALL offenders are in the real world...
    It's just so stupid. It's a drama about a particularly kind of toxic culture amongst some young men; in a predominately white country most of those affected are going to be white. It's also the case that most murder victims are male - but not when it's motivated by this kind of culture. If it was a drama about gangs and knife crime in London then they'd have a sliver of a point. But it wasn't.

    What they actually think is that all baddies in all media should be black/trans/Muslim. Remind you of anyone? *Invokes Godwin*.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,986
    Tesla is now MAGA.

    Can the company survive?

    Glad I don't have stock.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,307
    https://x.com/BBCNews/status/1903534330007232595

    One half of Scotland's once famous power couple does stand up and has a book to sell.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,986
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    show previous quotes
    Thanks, Leon, but I wasn't being entirely serious. May I ask you a perfectly serious one though?

    What do you think of Wolfe Hall, or more specifically Hilary Mantel?

    I gave up after 140 pages. It wasn't the topic, which I love, or the contrarian view of More and Cromwell, which intrigued me. It was the strange affected 'literary' style that did for me.

    Is that just me, or does she rub your fur up the wrong way too?
    I too nearly gave up. The point of view is known as third person historical iirc. V unusual.

    But I stuck with it.

    Eventually you a swept along as in a dream. Just superb writing.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,789
    MattW said:

    show previous quotes
    A question about a person is different to a question about a broom. :wink: I was specifically commenting on a broom.

    Is there a specific word for anthropomorphism when applied to brooms?
    Noted. But the issue is of course not about brooms but about the nature of material objects, of which a broom is one and a human being is another.

    Yes it is quite possible that the answer for persons and brooms is different, though personally I don't think it is.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,148
    edited March 22
    I'm with the 29% because the alternative is: I am not the me I was last year.

    https://time.com/archive/6869550/science-the-fleeting-flesh/
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,078
    kjh said:

    show previous quotes
    The other day I saw some film of the filming showing the actors handing over the camera to each other to make it a single shot. One was filming outside of a car and then the camera handed over to an actor in the car filming outside of it. Another was an actor filming people walking in front of her, She hands the camera over to one of the people she is filming, who now films her walking in front of them.

    It looked impossible yet the scenes were seamless. No sign of the handover of the camera. Absolutely brilliant watching it done, but I would have been oblivious of it just watching the scenes, as I guess it should be.

    Brilliant skill.
    Stephen Graham was in a (not very good) film about an angry chef which was all done in one shot.

    It spawned a TV show.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,462
    rottenborough said:

    show previous quotes
    There's a rich seam of dramas that are basically documentaries: 'Cathy Come Home' being possibly the original.
    As I understand it, there are two cases which gave inspiration for this drama:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-62119537

    The court heard the boy, who has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and attended a special school, had previously been subject to a community resolution notice after hitting a PCSO last July.

    Mrs Justice Yip said he had also been arrested in May last year for assault on two women and by August it was suspected he was being exploited by known criminals.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/mar/13/hassan-sentamu-jailed-murder-elianne-andam-croydon-south-london

    Referring to Sentamu’s background, he said: “Hassan’s violent streak, his anger, his outbursts, did not come out of nowhere. He was not born with them. They come from his lived experiences from when he was a little boy.”

    Panayi added: “He has enough good in himself to recognise and hate himself for it.” He cited suicide notes at the time of the murder.

    Now, these are undeniably shocking. However, there's no suggestion that the internet is to blame.

    The Plymouth shooter is perhaps a better example. But he was 22, killed his mum and took some strangers with him, so perhaps not quite as shocking
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,078
    Pagan2 said:

    show previous quotes
    I would choose the words banal and anodyne to describe it frankly......but then we all have our own take on things so watch it and do you.
    We don’t have Netflix so I’ll pass.

    I also have loads of DVDs to get through.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,986
    Vance’s favorability is worse than Harris’s at the same two-month mark and perhaps worse than any new vice president in the history of polling.

    https://washingtonmonthly.com/2025/03/21/j-d-vance-is-the-most-disliked-new-vice-president-in-history/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,840
    Leon said:

    show previous quotes

    lol

    I have a soft spot for Mart. His plotting was generally terrible and his dialogue pretty poor but he conjured some of the sharpest observations in modern British fiction AND he was, at his best, genuinely lol funny

    Very few writers can do that. I’ve had to put down more than one Martin Amis book because laughing too hard

    He’s also extremely good on the perils and travails of masculinity. Perhaps because he knew it from both sides - he was a highly intelligent witty successful handsome man. Alpha plus. But given the tiny stature of a deltoid
    I had a relative who had taught Martin Amis at primary school in Swansea when Kingsley was a lecturer at the University. Some thirty years later she bought and read his then current book, she was already and old lady by this point. Her analysis of Amis on reading the book was "the dirty boy". She considered the contents to be nothing more than smut.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,986
    Mexicanpete said:

    show previous quotes
    I had a relative who had taught Martin Amis at primary school in Swansea when Kingsley was a lecturer at the University. Some thirty years later she bought and read his then current book, she was already and old lady by this point. Her analysis of Amis on reading the book was "the dirty boy". She considered the contents to be nothing more than smut.
    Racheal Papers?

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,789
    rottenborough said:

    Is the UK prepared for the wave of visa applicants from US who will need to escape Trump 2.0 the way things are going?

    Perhaps we should be offering top scientists and engineers a visa deal?

    Good question. It really could happen. On a related matter, it seems to me that a lot of thoughtful people in the UK really don't want to talk about the subject of the internal politics of the USA. My sense is this reflects a real level of distress and sadness about this incomprehensible and wholly malign change that is coming upon the world and upon our children and grandchildren.

    The BBC has not quite caught up with the magnitude of this have they? I think the Guardian is getting there.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,305
    Chris said:

    show previous quotes
    I think most people would have a very strong prejudice against saying that they weren't the same person they used to be, because most of the cells in their body have been replaced by new ones.
    How long does it take for all one's cells to be completely replaced? Some would like to argue that they weren't the person who ran up all that debt.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,960
    edited March 22
    Kari Lake is really quite mad:

    https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/arizona-sen-gallego-accosted-by-lake-at-dc-club-report-21425870
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,411
    rottenborough said:

    show previous quotes
    I too nearly gave up. The point of view is known as third person historical iirc. V unusual.

    But I stuck with it.

    Eventually you a swept along as in a dream. Just superb writing.
    Wolfe Hall is good, but she failed to write with clarity around dialogue and I frequently lost the thread of who was speaking or thinking. I think it was criticised so in the sequel she wrote endlessly ‘he, Cromwell,’ throughout and that was probably worse.
    Started the last one, but never finished. In some ways Cromwell is better if he doesn’t lose in the end…
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,104
    edited March 22
    I just spotted that there is CCTV from that collision we were discussing in Colchester where the student lost control of his car (Ford Focus, 4am), partially demolished the store called Dusty's, and killed all 4 in the vehicle.

    This BBC piece has it:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw4p3z758eo

    I can't quite measure the speed - the distance from the end of the first white line to the end of the white line after the "get on the Left" arrow is just on 20m, and all I can say of the time is that it is well under one second.

    1s for 20m is around 45mph, so it's likely to be a lot more than that. The building they part-demolished was 200m further on on the right, with three sets of pedestrian refuges in the middle first.

    Location of the CCTV is here, inside "Cut and Coffee": https://maps.app.goo.gl/UdZGZyQSsWtUDMNW8

    The view I take of these are that those who killed themselves are a sunk cost, and it's about preventing the next lot doing the same, and making sure that they don't kill innocent passers-by as well.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,369
    edited March 22
    The Opinium VI numbers (based on the data tables):

    Labour: 26% (-2)
    Reform 26% (-1)
    Conservative 21% (+1)
    Liberal Democrats: 13% (+1)
    Greens: 8% (nc)

    No significant change though some slight improvement in Badenoch's ratings as Starmer's fall back but again nothing too drastic.

    Looking at voter shifts since last July, Labour has lost a third of those voting for them then with the ex-Labour voters going to all parties.

    The Conservatives have lost 20% of their 2024 vote to Reform but have picked up voters from other parties.

    The Liberal Democrats have retained 79% of their 2024 vote while Reform not only have 87% of their own 2024 vote but have picked up from both Conservative and Labour in equal numbers.
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