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The economy may no longer be Donald’s trump card – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,356
edited 7:26AM in General
The economy may no longer be Donald’s trump card – politicalbetting.com

NEW Economist/YouGov Poll% approving | disapproving of Trump's handling of…Inflation/pricesJan. 26-28: 45% | 39%March 9-11: 38% | 52%Jobs and the economyJan. 26-28: 49% | 37%March 9-11: 43% | 47%d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/ec…d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/ec…

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    edited 7:33AM
    First

    Setting fire to one’s Trump card, after wiping your arse on it….

    The real fun for the world economy is just getting started. Worldwide depression, anyone?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,972
    It was lying about the economy that won Trump the election.

    Especially his bullshit claims about how tariffs were going to MAGA.

    It really isn't surpriing his Pol Pol Year-Zero approach has come back to bite him in his nappy-wrapped arse in weeks.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,972

    First

    Setting fire to one’s Trump card, after wiping your arse on it….

    The real fun for the world economy is just getting started. Worldwide depression, anyone?

    Ironically, rebuilding Ukraine might just prevent that.

    Although I can't see Trump's America winning many tenders that pass over Zelenskyy's desk.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429

    First

    Setting fire to one’s Trump card, after wiping your arse on it….

    The real fun for the world economy is just getting started. Worldwide depression, anyone?

    Ironically, rebuilding Ukraine might just prevent that.

    Although I can't see Trump's America winning many tenders that pass over Zelenskyy's desk.
    Ukraine is one country. With a moderate sized economy. Rebuilding the place won’t replace a tiny fraction of the supply chains and international trading relationships that have *already* been destroyed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,733
    Most Americans, of course, are right. Tariffs will hurt the average American by increasing inflation and increasing the cost of input materials for American manufacturing. The tariffs on steel and aluminium are particularly stupid in this respect.

    But hey, you vote for an idiot, you get idiocy. Its not like they weren't warned, even if those in their own bubbles didn't hear it.
  • I agree with the view that people that have transitioned through surgery and “look” like the gender, can just use the bathroom they were given. After all, how world anyone know?

    A friend of a friend is a trans man, you honestly wouldn’t know - I didn’t - until I was told. I’m frankly not bothered what genitals he has, he’s as male as me as far as I am concerned in practice and is welcome in the male loos.

    I say this sincerely, I do think people have a view of trans people that many - and this is something I see JK Rowling do a lot - just look like men in a dress. I honestly think this is not the case.

    But I do have one question, if we are to take the view of some, he should still be using the female loos?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,999
    Apparently today is the 30th anniversary of the release of the bends - happy bends day @rcs1000
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,822
    And tomorrow the fifth anniversary of that notorious covid superspreader event?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 541
    It's looking like playbook 'austerity' and we know how that ends up - years of flatlining growth beyond the 4 years of Trump's administration. They are even suggesting that AI will free everyone to be more productive.

    Leaving any cynicism aside, all western economies are searching for that magic ingredient that doesn't involve printing ever larger amounts of cash. It's going to be interesting from a lab rat's point of view.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    They're never going to compare him to a lettuce.
    A mouldy turnip, perhaps.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    This isn't a terrible analysis of why the MAGA crew are doing what they're doing.
    And why it's going to fail.

    FROM MAGA TO CHINA
    Here are four things MAGA is getting wrong, and why it's handing over the world to China.

    (1) First, MAGA correctly understands that America’s economic position is in decline but thinks this is due to economic competition itself, rather than lack of competitiveness.

    (2) Second, MAGA also understands that the US has wasted trillions abroad in foreign wars, but thinks the problem is global leadership itself rather than poor leadership.

    (3) Third, MAGA knows that their Blue American enemies have allies abroad, but has incorrectly overreacted to this by treating every non-Red-American as an enemy.

    (4) Fourth, MAGA sees the billions of dollars flowing from the US to foreign recipients, but isn't grasping that the US can only print those dollars in the first place so long as it's the hub of a global empire...

    https://x.com/balajis/status/1899373219297321017

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,972
    boulay said:

    Apparently today is the 30th anniversary of the release of the bends - happy bends day @rcs1000

    "Planet Telex" might not have aged well.

    Although "Killer Cars" moment might have come.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,074
    Economic gloom, perpetual war with the ever present nuclear threat, deadly diseases of unknown origin and civil unrest are all very well, but the BIG NEWS...

    ...there is a Spinal Tap sequel coming out this year !!!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,972
    Scott_xP said:

    Economic gloom, perpetual war with the ever present nuclear threat, deadly diseases of unknown origin and civil unrest are all very well, but the BIG NEWS...

    ...there is a Spinal Tap sequel coming out this year !!!

    How many drummers have had to die to bring us that?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858

    I agree with the view that people that have transitioned through surgery and “look” like the gender, can just use the bathroom they were given. After all, how world anyone know?

    A friend of a friend is a trans man, you honestly wouldn’t know - I didn’t - until I was told. I’m frankly not bothered what genitals he has, he’s as male as me as far as I am concerned in practice and is welcome in the male loos.

    I say this sincerely, I do think people have a view of trans people that many - and this is something I see JK Rowling do a lot - just look like men in a dress. I honestly think this is not the case.

    But I do have one question, if we are to take the view of some, he should still be using the female loos?

    Yes. Because a 'no trans people using female loos' cannot be policed; at least without causing a lot of harm and anguish to women who do not fit what other women see as 'normal': who might wear different clothes, who might look butch, who are just different.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,185
    Scott_xP said:

    Economic gloom, perpetual war with the ever present nuclear threat, deadly diseases of unknown origin and civil unrest are all very well, but the BIG NEWS...

    ...there is a Spinal Tap sequel coming out this year !!!

    I'm in the office and the noises I made when I read that news has led to HR launching an investigation.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,956
    30 years since Radiohead’s The Bends released, obviously an important anniversary for PBers.
    The laudatory tribute just finished on R4 added the category ‘presenters’ to artists, writers etc who have been influenced by the album. I’m sure Thom & the boys will be chuffed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160

    boulay said:

    Apparently today is the 30th anniversary of the release of the bends - happy bends day @rcs1000

    "Planet Telex" might not have aged well.

    Although "Killer Cars" moment might have come.
    Planet Tesla ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    edited 8:04AM
    Nigelb said:

    They're never going to compare him to a lettuce.
    A mouldy turnip, perhaps.

    As a founder member of the Royal Society For The Protection of the Reputation of Superannuated Root Vegetables I find that suggestion disgraceful.

    If you put a mouldy turnip in the compost heap, you get compost. Valuable stuff.

    If you put Trump on the compost heap… not sure what you’d get. But it wouldn’t be good for the geraniums….

    Plus @malcolmg would have to give up turnip juice.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    Presumably the idea is thar that will also help with the partial destruction of the state, and then rebuilding it on more autocratic lines, from the ground up, as Thiel and Yarvin want
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,956
    I see the civil service has become ‘flabby’ and ‘over-cautious’.

    Not sure that’s the ground that Sir Keir should be choosing to fight the Blob upon.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,185
    🇨🇦 Conservative lead down to 5 points in today's tracker update: https://economist.com/interactive/2025-canada-election

    With a uniform swing from 2021 in each riding, this result would keep the Liberals in power


    https://x.com/OwenWntr/status/1900095489048985764
  • Subtle pun in the header. 4/10.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,298

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    It's nonsense isn't it. Americans will still be paying tax in the form of significant increased prices because of the tariffs or won't because they won't buy the much higher priced goods, in which case the Govt won't get the income.

    On top of that there will be massive inflation and America will cut itself of from much worldwide trade.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
    Indeed. Thiel is not stupid, and he may know that this could a catastrophic collapse, but he in fact seems to favour a patchwork of CEO-led city-states over larger nations, so maybe that's been priced in by the fantasists.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    That's a suicide note, not a plan.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    Battlebus said:

    It's looking like playbook 'austerity' and we know how that ends up - years of flatlining growth beyond the 4 years of Trump's administration. They are even suggesting that AI will free everyone to be more productive.

    Leaving any cynicism aside, all western economies are searching for that magic ingredient that doesn't involve printing ever larger amounts of cash. It's going to be interesting from a lab rat's point of view.

    Productivity.

    Real increases in productivity mean fewer people doing more, with less effort.

    Real productivity increases in agriculture mean that doctors can laze about in the NHS saving lives. In Ye Goode Olde Days, 97% of the population were required to work on feeding the country. In harvest time, in Medieval times, even the moderately aristocratic were out there helping.

    Remember all those propaganda films from the Soviet Union about heroic farm workers harvesting? By hand?

    Nowadays, it’s one guy in the climate controlled cab of an expensive machine.

    We have a shortage of workers in the U.K.

    The population pyramid is aging. If the workers we have can do more for less effort, then that will change the equation.

    AI is just a buzzword for some technology. Much of government has been untouched by the real technological revolution.

    This isn’t just replacing paper generation with computerised paper generation. That happened a long time back. This is about streamline processes, connecting things together.

    If you talk to civil servants, it’s a mix of over work and no work. A classic of queuing theory. They speak of fighting systems designed to prevent things happening.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429

    boulay said:

    The moment someone asked him “why aren’t you wearing a suit?”


    It's shit camo. He stands out like a sore thumb against that background.

    Anyone would think his dresser was trying to get him shot...
    {stops dismantling crutch}

    Shot, you say?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,904

    I agree with the view that people that have transitioned through surgery and “look” like the gender, can just use the bathroom they were given. After all, how world anyone know?

    A friend of a friend is a trans man, you honestly wouldn’t know - I didn’t - until I was told. I’m frankly not bothered what genitals he has, he’s as male as me as far as I am concerned in practice and is welcome in the male loos.

    I say this sincerely, I do think people have a view of trans people that many - and this is something I see JK Rowling do a lot - just look like men in a dress. I honestly think this is not the case.

    But I do have one question, if we are to take the view of some, he should still be using the female loos?

    methinks you dost protest too much
  • Immigration paper being released from government in the next few months.

    Immigration is going to be cut significantly IMHO.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,904
    Nigelb said:

    They're never going to compare him to a lettuce.
    A mouldy turnip, perhaps.

    An insult to turnips
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 541

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
    Indeed. Thiel is not stupid, and he may know that this could a catastrophic collapse, but he in fact seems to favour a patchwork of CEO-led city-states over larger nations, so maybe that's been priced in by the fantasists.
    Have seen comments somewhere (perhaps here) where the original US Constitution is no longer fit-for-purpose (whose purpose?) and should be rewritten by the new Founding Fathers. Suppose that if China can pivot their 'Communism' to something else, then the US can pivot their democracy from 'classic' to 'new and improved'.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,882

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Yes, I mentioned this the other day, not the specific income but the plan.

    It won’t work. They won’t get anywhere near enough in tariffs.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,044
    Nigelb said:

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    That's a suicide note, not a plan.
    Only if public opinion still matters.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,144


    This is Murican exceptionalism. What's right for Georgia must be right for anywhere, right? So build ladder frame massive trucks with minimal safety features and massive low power high consumption V8s under the hood. Ain't no replacement for displacement, right?

    They are not really 'low' power. All of the V8s in the Big Three (F150, Silverado, Ram) are 350hp+.

    I think they'd sell well in the UK if the OEMs were interested in RHD markets (which they are not) and the UK altered its regulatory environment so they could get type approval (which the UK won't).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429

    Immigration paper being released from government in the next few months.

    Immigration is going to be cut significantly IMHO.

    Some thoughts

    1) what is the moral case for large numbers being left “economically inactive”, because it is cheaper and easier to import labour?
    2) many of the “economically inactive” will not be able to generate value per hour in excess of minimum wage. At least in the short term.
    3) why do we we have 70%+ tax rates on poor people doing more work?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    Our new independent poll on Ukraine's “modestly successful comedian” shows… he has 72% approval, with 1.5x more votes than nearest rival Zaluzhny in election mock-up. 61% also against elections until full end to war. Numbers @realdonaldtrump would die for
    https://x.com/olliecarroll/status/1899908007624138822
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,074
    @Trinhnomics

    Trumponomics winners so far (20 Jan to 13 March 2025 in USD):

    #1 Poland yay!!! +20%
    #2 Hong Kong listed Chinese stocks +20%
    #3 Hong Kong stock index (including Chinese stocks) +18%
    #4 Europe (Eurostoxx, a lot of banks) +9%
    #5 CAC, which is top 40 in Euronext +8%
    #8 Vietnam Ho Chi Minh stocks +5%

    Mexico, Brazil, Japan, South Africa, Turkey are also winners. Note that this is mostly FX because, well, the dollar softened.

    In short, Trump has made Poland great again!!!

    Trumponomics losers so far:

    #1 Bitcoin -21% in USD (yes, it goes up a lot and down a lot but it really depends on the level that you buy)
    #2 Thailand -12%
    #3 Argentina -12%
    #4 Nasdaq 100 -9%
    #5 Indonesia -8%
    #6 SPX -7%
    #7 Australia -7%
    #8 Taiwan -6%
    #10 India NIFTY -5%

    https://x.com/Trinhnomics/status/1900098332200231375
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,277

    Battlebus said:

    It's looking like playbook 'austerity' and we know how that ends up - years of flatlining growth beyond the 4 years of Trump's administration. They are even suggesting that AI will free everyone to be more productive.

    Leaving any cynicism aside, all western economies are searching for that magic ingredient that doesn't involve printing ever larger amounts of cash. It's going to be interesting from a lab rat's point of view.

    Productivity.

    Real increases in productivity mean fewer people doing more, with less effort.

    Real productivity increases in agriculture mean that doctors can laze about in the NHS saving lives. In Ye Goode Olde Days, 97% of the population were required to work on feeding the country. In harvest time, in Medieval times, even the moderately aristocratic were out there helping.

    Remember all those propaganda films from the Soviet Union about heroic farm workers harvesting? By hand?

    Nowadays, it’s one guy in the climate controlled cab of an expensive machine.

    We have a shortage of workers in the U.K.

    The population pyramid is aging. If the workers we have can do more for less effort, then that will change the equation.

    AI is just a buzzword for some technology. Much of government has been untouched by the real technological revolution.

    This isn’t just replacing paper generation with computerised paper generation. That happened a long time back. This is about streamline processes, connecting things together.

    If you talk to civil servants, it’s a mix of over work and no work. A classic of queuing theory. They speak of fighting systems designed to prevent things happening.
    There's some fascinating reading to be had on data decarbonisation and the damage being done by the additional requirements to store vast amounts of computer generated information, most of which will never be used. Yet most think paper storage is bad for the environment - oddly enough, no it isn't.

    There's one problem - orgnaisations are constipated into inertia by their own information.

    The other problem in many organisations is the decision making process which, I accept, may be worse in the public sector. Call it an adversity to risk or a fear of unintended consequences or simply overload but getting senior people to take decisions (and stick by them) is arguably the biggest barrier to productivity I ever encountered.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,321

    I agree with the view that people that have transitioned through surgery and “look” like the gender, can just use the bathroom they were given. After all, how world anyone know?

    A friend of a friend is a trans man, you honestly wouldn’t know - I didn’t - until I was told. I’m frankly not bothered what genitals he has, he’s as male as me as far as I am concerned in practice and is welcome in the male loos.

    I say this sincerely, I do think people have a view of trans people that many - and this is something I see JK Rowling do a lot - just look like men in a dress. I honestly think this is not the case.

    But I do have one question, if we are to take the view of some, he should still be using the female loos?

    The issue with most of these questions is self ID. That’s what makes some biological women uncomfortable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    They're never going to compare him to a lettuce.
    A mouldy turnip, perhaps.

    An insult to turnips
    You're fond of mouldy turnips, malc ?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,393
    Nigelb said:

    This isn't a terrible analysis of why the MAGA crew are doing what they're doing.
    And why it's going to fail.

    FROM MAGA TO CHINA
    Here are four things MAGA is getting wrong, and why it's handing over the world to China.

    (1) First, MAGA correctly understands that America’s economic position is in decline but thinks this is due to economic competition itself, rather than lack of competitiveness.

    (2) Second, MAGA also understands that the US has wasted trillions abroad in foreign wars, but thinks the problem is global leadership itself rather than poor leadership.

    (3) Third, MAGA knows that their Blue American enemies have allies abroad, but has incorrectly overreacted to this by treating every non-Red-American as an enemy.

    (4) Fourth, MAGA sees the billions of dollars flowing from the US to foreign recipients, but isn't grasping that the US can only print those dollars in the first place so long as it's the hub of a global empire...

    https://x.com/balajis/status/1899373219297321017

    The first three points are OK.

    The last point is completely wrong, in fact stupid. America isn't the hub of a global empire, unlike say us a century ago, and it could print dollars without having a single colony anyway.

    A shame as it rather undermines the rest of the post.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    Battlebus said:

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
    Indeed. Thiel is not stupid, and he may know that this could a catastrophic collapse, but he in fact seems to favour a patchwork of CEO-led city-states over larger nations, so maybe that's been priced in by the fantasists.
    Have seen comments somewhere (perhaps here) where the original US Constitution is no longer fit-for-purpose (whose purpose?) and should be rewritten by the new Founding Fathers. Suppose that if China can pivot their 'Communism' to something else, then the US can pivot their democracy from 'classic' to 'new and improved'.
    That's essentially a MAGA argument.
    Like much else they espouse, it's idiotic.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,074
    The US constitution was designed to prevent future Kings, and has shown itself to be inadequate in that regard

    The question is whether any efforts will be made to Trump-proof it in the future
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,321
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    They're never going to compare him to a lettuce.
    A mouldy turnip, perhaps.

    An insult to turnips
    An insult to mould.

    Mould is useful. Penicillin is a mould.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    It's looking like playbook 'austerity' and we know how that ends up - years of flatlining growth beyond the 4 years of Trump's administration. They are even suggesting that AI will free everyone to be more productive.

    Leaving any cynicism aside, all western economies are searching for that magic ingredient that doesn't involve printing ever larger amounts of cash. It's going to be interesting from a lab rat's point of view.

    Productivity.

    Real increases in productivity mean fewer people doing more, with less effort.

    Real productivity increases in agriculture mean that doctors can laze about in the NHS saving lives. In Ye Goode Olde Days, 97% of the population were required to work on feeding the country. In harvest time, in Medieval times, even the moderately aristocratic were out there helping.

    Remember all those propaganda films from the Soviet Union about heroic farm workers harvesting? By hand?

    Nowadays, it’s one guy in the climate controlled cab of an expensive machine.

    We have a shortage of workers in the U.K.

    The population pyramid is aging. If the workers we have can do more for less effort, then that will change the equation.

    AI is just a buzzword for some technology. Much of government has been untouched by the real technological revolution.

    This isn’t just replacing paper generation with computerised paper generation. That happened a long time back. This is about streamline processes, connecting things together.

    If you talk to civil servants, it’s a mix of over work and no work. A classic of queuing theory. They speak of fighting systems designed to prevent things happening.
    There's some fascinating reading to be had on data decarbonisation and the damage being done by the additional requirements to store vast amounts of computer generated information, most of which will never be used. Yet most think paper storage is bad for the environment - oddly enough, no it isn't.

    There's one problem - orgnaisations are constipated into inertia by their own information.

    The other problem in many organisations is the decision making process which, I accept, may be worse in the public sector. Call it an adversity to risk or a fear of unintended consequences or simply overload but getting senior people to take decisions (and stick by them) is arguably the biggest barrier to productivity I ever encountered.
    DNA storage is the future for rarely accessed information.
    Enormous potential capacity, and is a couple of orders of magnitude more stable than paper.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    Battlebus said:

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
    Indeed. Thiel is not stupid, and he may know that this could a catastrophic collapse, but he in fact seems to favour a patchwork of CEO-led city-states over larger nations, so maybe that's been priced in by the fantasists.
    Have seen comments somewhere (perhaps here) where the original US Constitution is no longer fit-for-purpose (whose purpose?) and should be rewritten by the new Founding Fathers. Suppose that if China can pivot their 'Communism' to something else, then the US can pivot their democracy from 'classic' to 'new and improved'.
    Yup, I quoted from Thiel's Straussian Moment on this yesterday. They want to burn everything to the ground, not just the state, but also the constutution. Vance is Thiel's baby, too.

    The most worrying scenario of them all, though, is that he knows that it would be irrecoverable, and is using nationalist like Trump and Vance. He, Andreesen, and others, are more interested in competing mini tech-states run by autocrat CEO's, and Greenland, for instance, is a good candidate for one of their "digital states." The co-founder of the Thiel-linked Praxis organisation, for instance, wants to buy a city in Greenland and turn into a tech city-state, and simultaneously model a Mars community on it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,277

    Battlebus said:

    It's looking like playbook 'austerity' and we know how that ends up - years of flatlining growth beyond the 4 years of Trump's administration. They are even suggesting that AI will free everyone to be more productive.

    Leaving any cynicism aside, all western economies are searching for that magic ingredient that doesn't involve printing ever larger amounts of cash. It's going to be interesting from a lab rat's point of view.

    Productivity.

    Real increases in productivity mean fewer people doing more, with less effort.

    Real productivity increases in agriculture mean that doctors can laze about in the NHS saving lives. In Ye Goode Olde Days, 97% of the population were required to work on feeding the country. In harvest time, in Medieval times, even the moderately aristocratic were out there helping.

    Remember all those propaganda films from the Soviet Union about heroic farm workers harvesting? By hand?

    Nowadays, it’s one guy in the climate controlled cab of an expensive machine.

    We have a shortage of workers in the U.K.

    The population pyramid is aging. If the workers we have can do more for less effort, then that will change the equation.

    AI is just a buzzword for some technology. Much of government has been untouched by the real technological revolution.

    This isn’t just replacing paper generation with computerised paper generation. That happened a long time back. This is about streamline processes, connecting things together.

    If you talk to civil servants, it’s a mix of over work and no work. A classic of queuing theory. They speak of fighting systems designed to prevent things happening.
    I shouldn't quote you twice but there's another aspect to your comment on which I wanted to pick.

    The introduction of technology doesn't always mean a reduction in headcount or improvements in productivity - it might do when you're working in a field or on a factory floor but if all the technology does is enable more information to be produced, it simply leads to more demands for more information and the employment of more people to process that information.

    Complexity isn't resolved by technology - complexisty is resolved by tackling the reasons for complexity.

    I do agree we have under employment in many areas (especially but not exclusively specialisms) yet we also have people who cannot find work for years. The number looking for work isn't what the numbers claiming unemployment benefit (or whatever it's called these days). It's inflated by those looking for second jobs to augment income and those who, for whatever reason, cannot even get an interview. I suspect the unemployment rate among those with disabilities continues to be stubbornly high as well.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151
    Today is the vote in the Bundestag on reforming the debt brake. It's still unclear if it will get the 2 thirds majority needed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    This isn't a terrible analysis of why the MAGA crew are doing what they're doing.
    And why it's going to fail.

    FROM MAGA TO CHINA
    Here are four things MAGA is getting wrong, and why it's handing over the world to China.

    (1) First, MAGA correctly understands that America’s economic position is in decline but thinks this is due to economic competition itself, rather than lack of competitiveness.

    (2) Second, MAGA also understands that the US has wasted trillions abroad in foreign wars, but thinks the problem is global leadership itself rather than poor leadership.

    (3) Third, MAGA knows that their Blue American enemies have allies abroad, but has incorrectly overreacted to this by treating every non-Red-American as an enemy.

    (4) Fourth, MAGA sees the billions of dollars flowing from the US to foreign recipients, but isn't grasping that the US can only print those dollars in the first place so long as it's the hub of a global empire...

    https://x.com/balajis/status/1899373219297321017

    The first three points are OK.

    The last point is completely wrong, in fact stupid. America isn't the hub of a global empire, unlike say us a century ago, and it could print dollars without having a single colony anyway.

    A shame as it rather undermines the rest of the post.
    Financially, it still is.

    If you read the thread, he partially addresses that anyway, pointing out China's growing trade dominance across the globe.
    The theory that there only holding down their currency until they've completely destroyed manufacturing competition, at which point they'll float it, is an interesting one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,999

    🇨🇦 Conservative lead down to 5 points in today's tracker update: https://economist.com/interactive/2025-canada-election

    With a uniform swing from 2021 in each riding, this result would keep the Liberals in power


    https://x.com/OwenWntr/status/1900095489048985764

    The 'time for change' election has become a 'don't risk change' election.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,316

    I see the civil service has become ‘flabby’ and ‘over-cautious’.

    Not sure that’s the ground that Sir Keir should be choosing to fight the Blob upon.

    Is that not essentially what the Tories have said for years?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,646
    Scott_xP said:

    The US constitution was designed to prevent future Kings, and has shown itself to be inadequate in that regard

    The question is whether any efforts will be made to Trump-proof it in the future

    Should they ever be able to get Trump and then his anointed successors out of the WH then I am sure there will be efforts to redesign things so it can't happen again.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,999
    Battlebus said:

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
    Indeed. Thiel is not stupid, and he may know that this could a catastrophic collapse, but he in fact seems to favour a patchwork of CEO-led city-states over larger nations, so maybe that's been priced in by the fantasists.
    Have seen comments somewhere (perhaps here) where the original US Constitution is no longer fit-for-purpose (whose purpose?) and should be rewritten by the new Founding Fathers. Suppose that if China can pivot their 'Communism' to something else, then the US can pivot their democracy from 'classic' to 'new and improved'.
    Weren't the New Founding Fathers the fictional party in the Purge series that wanted to improve the economy by letting people kill each other 1 day a year?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    On domestic politics, Starner's civil servuce reforms may be very different in ideological origins from Musk's, Trump's, and Thiel's, but echoing the Anerican techno-right's rhetoric of "disruption", as I heard from someone quoted in the government yesterday, is a real hostage to fortune.

    Disruption, there, could turn into disaster.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,586

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    They're never going to compare him to a lettuce.
    A mouldy turnip, perhaps.

    An insult to turnips
    An insult to mould.

    Mould is useful. Penicillin is a mould.
    Mould is useful full stop for other reasons, not least for rotting down corpses etc. and allowing the recycling of nutrient elements. Quite apart from blue cheeses, the obligatory reference for PB.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,277
    Morning all :)

    I see the Prime Minister is talking about a "cottage industry of checkers and blockers slowing down delivery for working people".

    I'm not 100% sure what he means by that and to whom he is referring. Is he thinking about the legal, financial, contractual and environmental checks you see in Cabinet level reports to local councillors and presumably their equivalent at Civil Service level?

    The reason such checks are included are usually statutory based on the requirement of Councils to conform to standing orders which in turn derive from legislative and regulatory requirements agreed by Parliament?

    I presume he's also warbling on about planning and all the checks and balances imposed by previous Conservative and Labour Governments to ensure applications met certain criteria.

    If he wants to stop the checking, fine. All he has to do is repeal the legislation enforcing the checks. If we don't need to prove if a contractor or another organisation is financially viable, fine. If we no longer need to prove a site for development has any nesting bats or similar, also fine but don't blame those doing the checks you and other MPs imposed.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,277

    I see the civil service has become ‘flabby’ and ‘over-cautious’.

    Not sure that’s the ground that Sir Keir should be choosing to fight the Blob upon.

    Is that not essentially what the Tories have said for years?
    Yes and I think the point is said Tories did nothing about it while leading the Government and indeed presided over a growth of the aforementioned flabbiness and over caution.

    I'm not 100% sure that's true - more than a million jobs in local Government were lost after 2012 thanks to the Coalition's ludicrous "austerity" yet I suspect NHS headscount has grown but at least we can put that down to the requirements of an ageing population.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,836
    They ain't seen nothin' yet!
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,724
    edited 8:54AM

    On domestic politics, Starner's civil servuce reforms may be very different in ideological origins from Musk's, Trump's, and Thiel's, but echoing the Anerican techno-right's rhetoric of "disruption", as I heard from someone quoted in the government yesterday, is a real hostage to fortune.

    Disruption, there, could turn into disaster.

    It's just a risk tolerance question. I guess the Civil Service is set up to reduce risk as far as possible, and is moulded in that image with relatively low salaries, great pensions and job security. Those conditions attract people with low tolerance for risk, so you get a virtuous (vicious?) cycle.

    Do we really want a disruptive Civil Service? Part of the attraction of the UK is a rock solid set of conventions, laws, taxes etc etc. Just look at the effect of Trump's tariffs on business confidence. Perhaps we should leave it to the private sector to hurry things along, and think tanks to agitate for public sector reform.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    A majority of Democrats and Independents clearly aren't keen on Trump's tariffs, a majority of the former and a plurality of the latter hold him responsible for the economy and most US voters disapprove of his record on inflation and a plurality on jobs.

    His Republican core vote still largely backs his economic policies and is not majority opposed to protectionism but the GOP need to be at least about level pegging with Independents too to win
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    kle4 said:

    Battlebus said:

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
    Indeed. Thiel is not stupid, and he may know that this could a catastrophic collapse, but he in fact seems to favour a patchwork of CEO-led city-states over larger nations, so maybe that's been priced in by the fantasists.
    Have seen comments somewhere (perhaps here) where the original US Constitution is no longer fit-for-purpose (whose purpose?) and should be rewritten by the new Founding Fathers. Suppose that if China can pivot their 'Communism' to something else, then the US can pivot their democracy from 'classic' to 'new and improved'.
    Weren't the New Founding Fathers the fictional party in the Purge series that wanted to improve the economy by letting people kill each other 1 day a year?
    This lot behind the second administration - Trump himself doesn't think much, beyond getting new headlines and adulation each day from his supporters-are more of the view that the Enlightenment has failed.

    The majority of people live in imitative jealousy of the special and bright few - themselves - so the system is inherently unstable. This is their own interpretation of the second-rank but very grim French philosopher Renee Girard, who Thiel quotes in his essay.

    Since ordinary people can't be trusted, and the Enligtenment was wrong to assume the natural state isn't perpetual war and envious competition, the constutution has to be reconfigured so that the natural monarchs can take charge. Then security and happiness will return.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    It's looking like playbook 'austerity' and we know how that ends up - years of flatlining growth beyond the 4 years of Trump's administration. They are even suggesting that AI will free everyone to be more productive.

    Leaving any cynicism aside, all western economies are searching for that magic ingredient that doesn't involve printing ever larger amounts of cash. It's going to be interesting from a lab rat's point of view.

    Productivity.

    Real increases in productivity mean fewer people doing more, with less effort.

    Real productivity increases in agriculture mean that doctors can laze about in the NHS saving lives. In Ye Goode Olde Days, 97% of the population were required to work on feeding the country. In harvest time, in Medieval times, even the moderately aristocratic were out there helping.

    Remember all those propaganda films from the Soviet Union about heroic farm workers harvesting? By hand?

    Nowadays, it’s one guy in the climate controlled cab of an expensive machine.

    We have a shortage of workers in the U.K.

    The population pyramid is aging. If the workers we have can do more for less effort, then that will change the equation.

    AI is just a buzzword for some technology. Much of government has been untouched by the real technological revolution.

    This isn’t just replacing paper generation with computerised paper generation. That happened a long time back. This is about streamline processes, connecting things together.

    If you talk to civil servants, it’s a mix of over work and no work. A classic of queuing theory. They speak of fighting systems designed to prevent things happening.
    I shouldn't quote you twice but there's another aspect to your comment on which I wanted to pick.

    The introduction of technology doesn't always mean a reduction in headcount or improvements in productivity - it might do when you're working in a field or on a factory floor but if all the technology does is enable more information to be produced, it simply leads to more demands for more information and the employment of more people to process that information.

    Complexity isn't resolved by technology - complexisty is resolved by tackling the reasons for complexity.

    I do agree we have under employment in many areas (especially but not exclusively specialisms) yet we also have people who cannot find work for years. The number looking for work isn't what the numbers claiming unemployment benefit (or whatever it's called these days). It's inflated by those looking for second jobs to augment income and those who, for whatever reason, cannot even get an interview. I suspect the unemployment rate among those with disabilities continues to be stubbornly high as well.
    Oh, indeed

    Part of the current problem is unthinking creation of useless “work” - metric tons of documents that no one ever reads and the rest.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    kamski said:

    Today is the vote in the Bundestag on reforming the debt brake. It's still unclear if it will get the 2 thirds majority needed.

    If the Russians agree to the ceasefire Ukraine has accepted it may not be needed for the moment anyway
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160

    I see the civil service has become ‘flabby’ and ‘over-cautious’.

    Not sure that’s the ground that Sir Keir should be choosing to fight the Blob upon.

    Is that not essentially what the Tories have said for years?
    And essentially failed to do anything constructive about, for years.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 541
    kle4 said:

    Battlebus said:

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
    Indeed. Thiel is not stupid, and he may know that this could a catastrophic collapse, but he in fact seems to favour a patchwork of CEO-led city-states over larger nations, so maybe that's been priced in by the fantasists.
    Have seen comments somewhere (perhaps here) where the original US Constitution is no longer fit-for-purpose (whose purpose?) and should be rewritten by the new Founding Fathers. Suppose that if China can pivot their 'Communism' to something else, then the US can pivot their democracy from 'classic' to 'new and improved'.
    Weren't the New Founding Fathers the fictional party in the Purge series that wanted to improve the economy by letting people kill each other 1 day a year?
    Yes and then there is this. Bonkers, absolutely bonkers.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/30/trump-crime-the-purge-speech
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I see the Prime Minister is talking about a "cottage industry of checkers and blockers slowing down delivery for working people".

    I'm not 100% sure what he means by that and to whom he is referring. Is he thinking about the legal, financial, contractual and environmental checks you see in Cabinet level reports to local councillors and presumably their equivalent at Civil Service level?

    The reason such checks are included are usually statutory based on the requirement of Councils to conform to standing orders which in turn derive from legislative and regulatory requirements agreed by Parliament?

    I presume he's also warbling on about planning and all the checks and balances imposed by previous Conservative and Labour Governments to ensure applications met certain criteria.

    If he wants to stop the checking, fine. All he has to do is repeal the legislation enforcing the checks. If we don't need to prove if a contractor or another organisation is financially viable, fine. If we no longer need to prove a site for development has any nesting bats or similar, also fine but don't blame those doing the checks you and other MPs imposed.

    I'm a freelance food industry consultant, with 60% of my time taken up doing project work for various component businesses within this global group. Started big new project in January, and have scoped another project to run alongside it which they've asked me to make a start on. And a wholly unrelated client I am doing a side project for.

    My point is that the big group could do all of this in house if they were organised - they are not. What I imagine Starmer has in mind is ending the use of external consultants like myself and bringing work in house - with some of the work being scrapped altogether. A chunk of my consulting work is advising the group on how to organise to deliver goal x, having them not do so, and then paying me to mop up the mess caused by them being disorganised. I wonder how much of national & local government plus arms length agencies have the same issue.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    edited 9:05AM

    🇨🇦 Conservative lead down to 5 points in today's tracker update: https://economist.com/interactive/2025-canada-election

    With a uniform swing from 2021 in each riding, this result would keep the Liberals in power


    https://x.com/OwenWntr/status/1900095489048985764

    The Conservatives on 39% poll average, so Poilievre would get the highest Conservative voteshare since Harper's 39.6% in 2011, just the Liberals on a forecast 34%, so Carney would get the highest Liberal voteshare since Trudeau's first win in 2015, albeit still below the 39% Trudeau got then, which may be enough for him to scrape home mainly by squeezing the NDP vote. Also very much still possible Poilievre could win most seats even if no longer with a majority.

    Looks more like a UK 2010 election, where Brown stopped Cameron getting a majority than a clear Carney win at present but we will see what more polls show
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    They're never going to compare him to a lettuce.
    A mouldy turnip, perhaps.

    An insult to turnips
    An insult to mould.

    Mould is useful. Penicillin is a mould.
    Mould is useful full stop for other reasons, not least for rotting down corpses etc. and allowing the recycling of nutrient elements. Quite apart from blue cheeses, the obligatory reference for PB.
    OK, he's more like a bag of persistent chemical waste.
    So still not a lettuce.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855

    kle4 said:

    Battlebus said:

    Morning PB.

    The latest Trump/Thiel plan seems to be eliminate all taxes for anyone earning less than 150,000 dollars a year, and then to replace the lost income with tariffs.

    Wave bye-bye to American industry, then.

    If they were going to do that sort of stuff, it would have better been done thirty or more years ago, when the US economy was in a much better competitive position, and it would have been much harder to replace with foreign (Chinese, Indian, Korean etc) competitors. And it probably would not have worked then...
    Indeed. Thiel is not stupid, and he may know that this could a catastrophic collapse, but he in fact seems to favour a patchwork of CEO-led city-states over larger nations, so maybe that's been priced in by the fantasists.
    Have seen comments somewhere (perhaps here) where the original US Constitution is no longer fit-for-purpose (whose purpose?) and should be rewritten by the new Founding Fathers. Suppose that if China can pivot their 'Communism' to something else, then the US can pivot their democracy from 'classic' to 'new and improved'.
    Weren't the New Founding Fathers the fictional party in the Purge series that wanted to improve the economy by letting people kill each other 1 day a year?
    This lot behind the second administration - Trump himself doesn't think much, beyond getting new headlines and adulation each day from his supporters-are more of the view that the Enlightenment has failed.

    The majority of people live in imitative jealousy of the special and bright few - themselves - so the system is inherently unstable. This is their own interpretation of the second-rank but very grim French philosopher Renee Girard, who Thiel quotes in his essay.

    Since ordinary people can't be trusted, and the Enligtenment was wrong to assume the natural state isn't perpetual war and envious competition, the constutution has to be reconfigured so that the natural monarchs can take charge. Then security and happiness will return.
    Just to add, on competition ; they believe competition between rival lord-Ceo's, of tech city-states or fiefdoms, is good, but at a lower-level between the masses, who are too stupid, mutually envious, and dangerous. So the world must be ordedd by the tech-monarcb, brightest and best, only.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,160
    Eabhal said:

    On domestic politics, Starner's civil servuce reforms may be very different in ideological origins from Musk's, Trump's, and Thiel's, but echoing the Anerican techno-right's rhetoric of "disruption", as I heard from someone quoted in the government yesterday, is a real hostage to fortune.

    Disruption, there, could turn into disaster.

    It's just a risk tolerance question. I guess the Civil Service is set up to reduce risk as far as possible, and is moulded in that image with relatively low salaries, great pensions and job security. Those conditions attract people with low tolerance for risk, so you get a virtuous (vicious?) cycle.

    Do we really want a disruptive Civil Service? Part of the attraction of the UK is a rock solid set of conventions, laws, taxes etc etc. Just look at the effect of Trump's tariffs on business confidence. Perhaps we should leave it to the private sector to hurry things along, and think tanks to agitate for public sector reform.
    Is the intention to create a "disruptive" Civil Service, though ?
    Or just a modestly more efficient one ?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 845
    Nigelb said:

    I see the civil service has become ‘flabby’ and ‘over-cautious’.

    Not sure that’s the ground that Sir Keir should be choosing to fight the Blob upon.

    Is that not essentially what the Tories have said for years?
    And essentially failed to do anything constructive about, for years.
    Francis Maude was on the radio yesterday claiming that they made good progress in reducing the size of the civil service as the coalition govt but that after 2015 it started increasing again... He didn't offer any explanation as to what might have led to an increase in the size of the civil service...
    https://www.civilserviceworld.com/news/article/brexit-decreased-public-sector-productivity-uk-changing-europe
    25% increase in headcount due to Brexit
    It's almost as if Conservative policies were counterproductive to their aims
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    But *not* at a lower level, and between the dangerous masses, that should say below.

    It's posting as a popular movement, buf is fact funded and organise mainly by techno-elitists, and techno-fascists.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    edited 9:11AM
    Nigelb said:

    This isn't a terrible analysis of why the MAGA crew are doing what they're doing.
    And why it's going to fail.

    FROM MAGA TO CHINA
    Here are four things MAGA is getting wrong, and why it's handing over the world to China.

    (1) First, MAGA correctly understands that America’s economic position is in decline but thinks this is due to economic competition itself, rather than lack of competitiveness.

    (2) Second, MAGA also understands that the US has wasted trillions abroad in foreign wars, but thinks the problem is global leadership itself rather than poor leadership.

    (3) Third, MAGA knows that their Blue American enemies have allies abroad, but has incorrectly overreacted to this by treating every non-Red-American as an enemy.

    (4) Fourth, MAGA sees the billions of dollars flowing from the US to foreign recipients, but isn't grasping that the US can only print those dollars in the first place so long as it's the hub of a global empire...

    https://x.com/balajis/status/1899373219297321017

    Though even Biden imposed tariffs on Chinese imports as China has an over production of industrial capacity and is dumping the excess cheap goods on foreign markets.

    The EU too has tariffs on Chinese EVs for example
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,210
    edited 9:11AM
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I see the Prime Minister is talking about a "cottage industry of checkers and blockers slowing down delivery for working people".

    I'm not 100% sure what he means by that and to whom he is referring. Is he thinking about the legal, financial, contractual and environmental checks you see in Cabinet level reports to local councillors and presumably their equivalent at Civil Service level?

    The reason such checks are included are usually statutory based on the requirement of Councils to conform to standing orders which in turn derive from legislative and regulatory requirements agreed by Parliament?

    I presume he's also warbling on about planning and all the checks and balances imposed by previous Conservative and Labour Governments to ensure applications met certain criteria.

    If he wants to stop the checking, fine. All he has to do is repeal the legislation enforcing the checks. If we don't need to prove if a contractor or another organisation is financially viable, fine. If we no longer need to prove a site for development has any nesting bats or similar, also fine but don't blame those doing the checks you and other MPs imposed.

    The working people shtick is becoming a bit old, like there are people sat behind desks somewhere twiddling their moustaches at being “blockers” to Suzanne who works in Tesco.

    And yes yours is my broad view too. There is a good argument for cutting a lot of regulation, but there must be an honesty in doing so. If you cut regulation you are increasing risk, generally, and that might be appropriate and acceptable (after all, it is impossible to remove all risk from life) but win the argument on that. For too long, governments have not felt confident to win the argument on risk. Perhaps they should try to do so, rather than blaming people behind desks.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,272

    DavidL said:

    Most Americans, of course, are right. Tariffs will hurt the average American by increasing inflation and increasing the cost of input materials for American manufacturing. The tariffs on steel and aluminium are particularly stupid in this respect.

    But hey, you vote for an idiot, you get idiocy. Its not like they weren't warned, even if those in their own bubbles didn't hear it.

    But so many Trump voters were not warned. Their media told them the opposite applies. I find it hard to blame low information voters where the information they receive is carefully curated lies.

    I can understand the frustration with Americans who look at the industries they once had and want them back. Why are car parts crossing the Canadian and Mexican borders several times before being assembled onto Murican cars? Why not just do all of it in Murica?

    The you get the reality check. You can - but are Murican consumers able and willing to pay the additional cost? That dumb news anchor who's response to the car dealership[ factually pointing out that costs will go shooting up and consumers won't afford it was to rant about how its Europe's fault for not buying them.

    This is Murican exceptionalism. What's right for Georgia must be right for anywhere, right? So build ladder frame massive trucks with minimal safety features and massive low power high consumption V8s under the hood. Ain't no replacement for displacement, right?

    Lets assume that some MAGA industrialist starts a business to make all the parts needed for a Dodge Ram actually in Murica. They become a closed economy. With minimal imports and exports, building things that nobody else wants - and besides they've become a pariah state where importing that truck would be as welcome as importing a Tait brother.

    Its crazy, its stupid, but its the only information that millions upon millions have been fed. Which is why we think "they were warned". Nope. Not if your news comes from Fox and Newsmax.
    Biden got hundreds of billions invested into building new factories.

    And then Harris didn't bother using them in her campaign.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 541
    edited 9:13AM

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I see the Prime Minister is talking about a "cottage industry of checkers and blockers slowing down delivery for working people".

    I'm not 100% sure what he means by that and to whom he is referring. Is he thinking about the legal, financial, contractual and environmental checks you see in Cabinet level reports to local councillors and presumably their equivalent at Civil Service level?

    The reason such checks are included are usually statutory based on the requirement of Councils to conform to standing orders which in turn derive from legislative and regulatory requirements agreed by Parliament?

    I presume he's also warbling on about planning and all the checks and balances imposed by previous Conservative and Labour Governments to ensure applications met certain criteria.

    If he wants to stop the checking, fine. All he has to do is repeal the legislation enforcing the checks. If we don't need to prove if a contractor or another organisation is financially viable, fine. If we no longer need to prove a site for development has any nesting bats or similar, also fine but don't blame those doing the checks you and other MPs imposed.

    I'm a freelance food industry consultant, with 60% of my time taken up doing project work for various component businesses within this global group. Started big new project in January, and have scoped another project to run alongside it which they've asked me to make a start on. And a wholly unrelated client I am doing a side project for.

    My point is that the big group could do all of this in house if they were organised - they are not. What I imagine Starmer has in mind is ending the use of external consultants like myself and bringing work in house - with some of the work being scrapped altogether. A chunk of my consulting work is advising the group on how to organise to deliver goal x, having them not do so, and then paying me to mop up the mess caused by them being disorganised. I wonder how much of national & local government plus arms length agencies have the same issue.
    I wouldn't complain if I were you. All large organisations find a hole in their whole organisation where events combine to stress 'the annual plan' fetish they all have. Just look for more stressed organisations.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,277

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    It's looking like playbook 'austerity' and we know how that ends up - years of flatlining growth beyond the 4 years of Trump's administration. They are even suggesting that AI will free everyone to be more productive.

    Leaving any cynicism aside, all western economies are searching for that magic ingredient that doesn't involve printing ever larger amounts of cash. It's going to be interesting from a lab rat's point of view.

    Productivity.

    Real increases in productivity mean fewer people doing more, with less effort.

    Real productivity increases in agriculture mean that doctors can laze about in the NHS saving lives. In Ye Goode Olde Days, 97% of the population were required to work on feeding the country. In harvest time, in Medieval times, even the moderately aristocratic were out there helping.

    Remember all those propaganda films from the Soviet Union about heroic farm workers harvesting? By hand?

    Nowadays, it’s one guy in the climate controlled cab of an expensive machine.

    We have a shortage of workers in the U.K.

    The population pyramid is aging. If the workers we have can do more for less effort, then that will change the equation.

    AI is just a buzzword for some technology. Much of government has been untouched by the real technological revolution.

    This isn’t just replacing paper generation with computerised paper generation. That happened a long time back. This is about streamline processes, connecting things together.

    If you talk to civil servants, it’s a mix of over work and no work. A classic of queuing theory. They speak of fighting systems designed to prevent things happening.
    I shouldn't quote you twice but there's another aspect to your comment on which I wanted to pick.

    The introduction of technology doesn't always mean a reduction in headcount or improvements in productivity - it might do when you're working in a field or on a factory floor but if all the technology does is enable more information to be produced, it simply leads to more demands for more information and the employment of more people to process that information.

    Complexity isn't resolved by technology - complexisty is resolved by tackling the reasons for complexity.

    I do agree we have under employment in many areas (especially but not exclusively specialisms) yet we also have people who cannot find work for years. The number looking for work isn't what the numbers claiming unemployment benefit (or whatever it's called these days). It's inflated by those looking for second jobs to augment income and those who, for whatever reason, cannot even get an interview. I suspect the unemployment rate among those with disabilities continues to be stubbornly high as well.
    Oh, indeed

    Part of the current problem is unthinking creation of useless “work” - metric tons of documents that no one ever reads and the rest.
    There's an issue with retention requirements for records which themselves are governed by statute. Three examples, records relating to children in Council care were originally held for 75 years but as people live longer it's now 100 and there's even talk of extending it to 125 years. Pension records have to be kept until the 100th birthday of any dependent and records relating to highway schemes, pace the KGB, are "to be preserved forever".

    There are a lot of systems where it is impossible to delete data - it can be moved to archive but it's still there on a backup server and if, under GDPR. an individual applies for their records to be anonymised it's very difficult to do. Most systems are predicated on the input and retention of data, not on its output or removal.

    That influences a mindset which is about information gathering and retention rather than information management. As I once told a colleague you have two choices - either you manage the information or the information manages you.
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 138
    edited 9:18AM
    For lovers of the spectacle of highly paid & apparently intelligent people blowing their feet off, the Staley appeal against the FCA's banning order is well worth watching.

    Yesterday's revelations: Staley having sex with one of Epstein's staff at one of his properties. Epstein writing a recommendation for Staley to Prince Andrew describing the financier as a friend and like a member of the family. Whatever criticisms can justly be made of Andrew, you have senior, apparently respectable financiers so close to Epstein, little wonder that someone with little nous won't see the obvious red flags.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,897
    Odds on the John Lewis staff bonus never coming back?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,956
    AnthonyT said:

    For lovers of the spectacle of highly paid & apparently intelligent people blowing their feet off, the Staley appeal against the FCA's banning order is well worth watching.

    Yesterday's revelations: Staley having sex with one of Epstein's staff at one of his properties. Staley writing a recommendation for Epstein to Prince Andrew describing the financier as a friend. Whatever criticisms can justly be made of Andrew, you have senior, apparently respectable financiers, recommending Epstein, little wonder that someone with little nous won't see the obvious red flags.

    Someone with little nous doesn't spot potential noose.
    Particularly when it comes to media interviews.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,277

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I see the Prime Minister is talking about a "cottage industry of checkers and blockers slowing down delivery for working people".

    I'm not 100% sure what he means by that and to whom he is referring. Is he thinking about the legal, financial, contractual and environmental checks you see in Cabinet level reports to local councillors and presumably their equivalent at Civil Service level?

    The reason such checks are included are usually statutory based on the requirement of Councils to conform to standing orders which in turn derive from legislative and regulatory requirements agreed by Parliament?

    I presume he's also warbling on about planning and all the checks and balances imposed by previous Conservative and Labour Governments to ensure applications met certain criteria.

    If he wants to stop the checking, fine. All he has to do is repeal the legislation enforcing the checks. If we don't need to prove if a contractor or another organisation is financially viable, fine. If we no longer need to prove a site for development has any nesting bats or similar, also fine but don't blame those doing the checks you and other MPs imposed.

    The working people shtick is becoming a bit old, like there are people sat behind desks somewhere twiddling their moustaches at being “blockers” to Suzanne who works in Tesco.

    And yes yours is my broad view too. There is a good argument for cutting a lot of regulation, but there must be an honesty in doing so. If you cut regulation you are increasing risk, generally, and that might be appropriate and acceptable (after all, it is impossible to remove all risk from life) but win the argument on that. For too long, governments have not felt confident to win the argument on risk. Perhaps they should try to do so, rather than blaming people behind desks.
    You're not wrong, my friend.

    It is about risk in all its forms - I read the other day about some poor woman who rang her bank with a routine enquiry and ended up being declared dead. Trying to live when you're officially dead is almost impossible and this poor woman basically lost control of her life, all because somebody hit a wrong button and this woman was marked as dead on a bank's system.

    Yes, risk works both ways and while there are some who might argue we should protect the habitats of endangered species others might counter the need for human beings to have a place to live trumps that consideration. Does it? Should it?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,617
    On thread: the header is rather unfair with its implied comparison with Liz Truss: by comparison with Trump, Truss was a model of calm and stolid economic management guided by strategic thinking.

    It's amazing to think Trump was valued for his business expertise. It must be a nightmare trying to run any sort of business in America at the moment with huge daily shifts in policy to react to. Even just at an administrative level, having to reprice certain categories of goods is a massive exercise - only to have to change them again the next day.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,156
    Isn't Keir Starmer actually projecting?

    "Overcautious and flabby" :lol:
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,256
    AnthonyT said:

    For lovers of the spectacle of highly paid & apparently intelligent people blowing their feet off, the Staley appeal against the FCA's banning order is well worth watching.

    Yesterday's revelations: Staley having sex with one of Epstein's staff at one of his properties. Epstein writing a recommendation for Staley to Prince Andrew describing the financier as a friend and like a member of the family. Whatever criticisms can justly be made of Andrew, you have senior, apparently respectable financiers so close to Epstein, little wonder that someone with little nous won't see the obvious red flags.

    Unbelievable that Staley is putting himself through this. If he thinks this is a means of restoring his reputation I suspect he will be sorely disappointed.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 561
    I wonder how the midterms are going to go down? Will Donold Trumps just sit there and twiddle his thumbs while congress lurches to the left or will that be a radical moment in american history. The fact that we cannot be sure tells you that the constitutional crisis is already here and that democrats are bringing pingpong bats to a gun fight.

    This is such an unstable situation and what I describe is just the internalities that can go wrong. There is a whole other set of dominoes, economic externalities, a fiscal or currency crisis.... these republicans don't have a conservative bone in their bodies. Conservativism conserves.... it does gradual, reasoned change, it promotes institutional stability. This, what the republicans are, is something completely different.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    I see the civil service has become ‘flabby’ and ‘over-cautious’.

    Not sure that’s the ground that Sir Keir should be choosing to fight the Blob upon.

    Is that not essentially what the Tories have said for years?
    And essentially failed to do anything constructive about, for years.
    Francis Maude was on the radio yesterday claiming that they made good progress in reducing the size of the civil service as the coalition govt but that after 2015 it started increasing again... He didn't offer any explanation as to what might have led to an increase in the size of the civil service...
    https://www.civilserviceworld.com/news/article/brexit-decreased-public-sector-productivity-uk-changing-europe
    25% increase in headcount due to Brexit
    It's almost as if Conservative policies were counterproductive to their aims
    Clearly if you want real austerity and to slash the size of the civil service you need free market, small state ideologue Orange Book Liberal Democrats in power holding One Nation Tories or statist Labour's feet to the fire, is that the lesson?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    Today is the vote in the Bundestag on reforming the debt brake. It's still unclear if it will get the 2 thirds majority needed.

    If the Russians agree to the ceasefire Ukraine has accepted it may not be needed for the moment anyway
    Nonsense
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855

    DavidL said:

    Most Americans, of course, are right. Tariffs will hurt the average American by increasing inflation and increasing the cost of input materials for American manufacturing. The tariffs on steel and aluminium are particularly stupid in this respect.

    But hey, you vote for an idiot, you get idiocy. Its not like they weren't warned, even if those in their own bubbles didn't hear it.

    But so many Trump voters were not warned. Their media told them the opposite applies. I find it hard to blame low information voters where the information they receive is carefully curated lies.

    I can understand the frustration with Americans who look at the industries they once had and want them back. Why are car parts crossing the Canadian and Mexican borders several times before being assembled onto Murican cars? Why not just do all of it in Murica?

    The you get the reality check. You can - but are Murican consumers able and willing to pay the additional cost? That dumb news anchor who's response to the car dealership[ factually pointing out that costs will go shooting up and consumers won't afford it was to rant about how its Europe's fault for not buying them.

    This is Murican exceptionalism. What's right for Georgia must be right for anywhere, right? So build ladder frame massive trucks with minimal safety features and massive low power high consumption V8s under the hood. Ain't no replacement for displacement, right?

    Lets assume that some MAGA industrialist starts a business to make all the parts needed for a Dodge Ram actually in Murica. They become a closed economy. With minimal imports and exports, building things that nobody else wants - and besides they've become a pariah state where importing that truck would be as welcome as importing a Tait brother.

    Its crazy, its stupid, but its the only information that millions upon millions have been fed. Which is why we think "they were warned". Nope. Not if your news comes from Fox and Newsmax.
    Biden got hundreds of billions invested into building new factories.

    And then Harris didn't bother using them in her campaign.
    Not only that but the right of the Democrats stopped Biden and Sanders from regulating the massive tech monopolies.

    So they squandered all the opportunities for a reorientation of the economy and political power that he could have been achieved. Meanwhile , China brought the Tech monopolists, like Jack Ma to heel, and actually accelerated its own tech development in the process So what really made the difference was ultra-neoliberal ideology, preventing the regulation huge tech monopolies.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,927

    I wonder how the midterms are going to go down? Will Donold Trumps just sit there and twiddle his thumbs while congress lurches to the left or will that be a radical moment in american history. The fact that we cannot be sure tells you that the constitutional crisis is already here and that democrats are bringing pingpong bats to a gun fight.

    This is such an unstable situation and what I describe is just the internalities that can go wrong. There is a whole other set of dominoes, economic externalities, a fiscal or currency crisis.... these republicans don't have a conservative bone in their bodies. Conservativism conserves.... it does gradual, reasoned change, it promotes institutional stability. This, what the republicans are, is something completely different.

    Suspended for national security whilst they root out anyone with Canadian or Mexican ancestry from the electoral roll?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505

    I wonder how the midterms are going to go down? Will Donold Trumps just sit there and twiddle his thumbs while congress lurches to the left or will that be a radical moment in american history. The fact that we cannot be sure tells you that the constitutional crisis is already here and that democrats are bringing pingpong bats to a gun fight.

    This is such an unstable situation and what I describe is just the internalities that can go wrong. There is a whole other set of dominoes, economic externalities, a fiscal or currency crisis.... these republicans don't have a conservative bone in their bodies. Conservativism conserves.... it does gradual, reasoned change, it promotes institutional stability. This, what the republicans are, is something completely different.

    What midterms?

    Genuinely.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I see the Prime Minister is talking about a "cottage industry of checkers and blockers slowing down delivery for working people".

    I'm not 100% sure what he means by that and to whom he is referring. Is he thinking about the legal, financial, contractual and environmental checks you see in Cabinet level reports to local councillors and presumably their equivalent at Civil Service level?

    The reason such checks are included are usually statutory based on the requirement of Councils to conform to standing orders which in turn derive from legislative and regulatory requirements agreed by Parliament?

    I presume he's also warbling on about planning and all the checks and balances imposed by previous Conservative and Labour Governments to ensure applications met certain criteria.

    If he wants to stop the checking, fine. All he has to do is repeal the legislation enforcing the checks. If we don't need to prove if a contractor or another organisation is financially viable, fine. If we no longer need to prove a site for development has any nesting bats or similar, also fine but don't blame those doing the checks you and other MPs imposed.

    I'm a freelance food industry consultant, with 60% of my time taken up doing project work for various component businesses within this global group. Started big new project in January, and have scoped another project to run alongside it which they've asked me to make a start on. And a wholly unrelated client I am doing a side project for.

    My point is that the big group could do all of this in house if they were organised - they are not. What I imagine Starmer has in mind is ending the use of external consultants like myself and bringing work in house - with some of the work being scrapped altogether. A chunk of my consulting work is advising the group on how to organise to deliver goal x, having them not do so, and then paying me to mop up the mess caused by them being disorganised. I wonder how much of national & local government plus arms length agencies have the same issue.
    I think the way to go is an in house consultancy. Within the civil service.

    I worked for one of those, in a big corporate, a while back.

    You get the “external” thing, but their overall interests are more aligned to the overall organisation.

    And, anything you are doing every day and will do in the future, *is* a core feature of your organisation. So insource it - it’s usually cheaper.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,196
    edited 9:33AM
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    Today is the vote in the Bundestag on reforming the debt brake. It's still unclear if it will get the 2 thirds majority needed.

    If the Russians agree to the ceasefire Ukraine has accepted it may not be needed for the moment anyway
    Nonsense
    Putin has said he won't even accept European and NATO peacekeepers, it would likely be Turkish, Brazilian, Indian troops etc enforcing any ceasefire.

    It would just be future deterrence NATO nations needed to increase their militaries for
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 845
    Dura_Ace said:


    This is Murican exceptionalism. What's right for Georgia must be right for anywhere, right? So build ladder frame massive trucks with minimal safety features and massive low power high consumption V8s under the hood. Ain't no replacement for displacement, right?

    They are not really 'low' power. All of the V8s in the Big Three (F150, Silverado, Ram) are 350hp+.

    I think they'd sell well in the UK if the OEMs were interested in RHD markets (which they are not) and the UK altered its regulatory environment so they could get type approval (which the UK won't).
    It'd be disastrous if they sold well in the UK, they're far too big for the UK. A few months ago was trapped in a car park because some twat had "parked" their F150 near the entrance. Some poor soul was attempting to extract their perfectly correctly parked normal size car, it took them about 10 minutes, tens of tiny back and forths and two spotters.
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