Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Lowe will tear us apart – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,358
edited March 9 in General
Lowe will tear us apart – politicalbetting.com

Required reading for UK media. Coverage of this story implies bullying allegations are against MP @RupertLowe10 not against a member of his staff, as is the case. Reform’s broadbrush smears in hope our media don’t do detail. Post this??to your fave channel, mine’s @TimesRadio? https://t.co/lIonKr7T0E

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,740
    We can only hope
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,544
    Does the Tory Party become more like Rupert Lowe (extreme Jenrick) to cut Nige off at the knees?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,129
    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,544
    edited March 9

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about? Doesn't he still work for right-wing media ecosystems? He's never off GB News and the BBC.
  • There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    You are a fucking loon.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,129

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,829
    edited March 9

    Phil said:

    Nurses take notes home all the time. They shouldn’t, but they do. (I bet intensive care nurses stopped taking notes home after the Letby case though, once they realised it could be used against them.) The notes to herself about guilt are ones the therapist appointed to her by her employer told her to make apparently.

    According to sources I’ve seen, it was standard practice in the neonatal department to not “rush to intervene” with a crashing baby (in case you made things worse presumably) but to stand by at first, so that doesn’t really count either.

    This is the thing with the Letby case, it’s a pile of suspicious sounding stories that sound like clear evidence of her guilt /if/ you think she’s already guilty. If not? They evaporate into thin air.

    The only hard evidence is the insulin poisoning & if that fails, it seems to me that everything else fails with it.

    Nurses don’t usually take home the notes of babies that died and stash them under the bed and then lie about not being able to dispose of them.

    A therapist told her to write about her feelings. The therapist did NOT tell her to confess to baby murders in those notes. What she wrote in those notes was up to her.

    I don’t know what nonsense you’ve come up with around desaturating infants, but, no, you don’t just stand there.

    You ignored other points I had noted. There was the time the mother of Baby E described hearing her infant scream, and walking in to find him with blood around his mouth and Letby in the room. Baby E later died. There is the other evidence that the deaths were unexpected and unnatural. There is the association between these deaths and Letby being on duty. And so on.
    The association between the deaths and Letby being on duty is because the prosecution dropped deaths when Letby was not on duty. They drew the target around the holes, as it were.

    Rather than bricks in the wall of evidence, the case seems to be made of Swiss cheese after statisticians have demolished the statistical case and the international Shoo Lee commission did the same for the medical case. It is not even clear there were any excess deaths at all compared to similar trusts.
    While I don't know the details, that isn't necessarily the smoking gun you think it is.

    It is possible (and again, I don't know the details, so I am just creating a theory here), that she was on duty half the time, and there were 20 deaths when she was on duty, and 2 when she was not.

    The question -from a statistical point of view- is what would be the normal number of deaths? It is possible that you would expect 2-4 deaths in the period, and therefore when she was not on duty there were a normal number, and when she was, there was an abnormal.

    In which case, excluding the deaths from the case isn't particular evidence of anything.

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict. Someone is going to win the lottery every week, even if the odds are 16 million to 1 against. That doesn't make them a cheat, that makes them the one person who - ah hem - won.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,897

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    Who cares about Facebook and Twitter
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,544

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    Sorry I was still stuck in linear media eco-systems rather than X. In those Nigey remains king of the castle.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,129

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    You are a fucking loon.
    You misunderstand me. I'm not saying there's a conspiracy. It's just an indication of how badly Farage has blown it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,768
    rcs1000 said:

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict.

    IIRC, a point I made firmly when this first started being discussed her. Crimes should be identified deterministically - a chain of evidence between the accused and the crime - not statistically

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,186
    edited March 9
    Lowe does seem a loose cannon - perhaps with all his parliamentary work he lost perspective and let it get on top of him. But it does seem he hasn't really done anything, except question Nigel.

    There is the slimmest of slim chances that Nigel can hang all this around the neck of Zia Yusuf, and welcome Rupert Lowe back into the fold.

    I don't think he can be seen to dismiss Yusuf whilst slaughtering the fatted ox for someone who has (afaik) spoken warmly of Tommy Robinson, but perhaps a grovelling apology and a period of silence from Yusuf would be enough. Change his role and take him off any communications duty.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,544
    edited March 9
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict.

    IIRC, a point I made firmly when this first started being discussed her. Crimes should be identified deterministically - a chain of evidence between the accused and the crime - not statistically

    But if the evidence is circumatantial, we have no smoking gun, surely statistics are useful to challenge the circumstances.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,186

    It was obvious Reform had peaked, to much laughter when I said so weeks ago.

    Farage will not be PM, he simply cannot form and hold a party together that is aligned in values and mission.

    I now doubt they’ll even win that by-election.

    No Tory leader has managed to hold together a party aligned around their values and mission. But a lot of them have still been PM.
  • The best and worst thing about any Farage party is Farage.

    Keir Starmer is the luckiest PM ever.
  • It was obvious Reform had peaked, to much laughter when I said so weeks ago.

    Farage will not be PM, he simply cannot form and hold a party together that is aligned in values and mission.

    I now doubt they’ll even win that by-election.

    No Tory leader has managed to hold together a party aligned around their values and mission. But a lot of them have still been PM.
    Which one lost 20% of their MPs on one day?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,829
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict.

    IIRC, a point I made firmly when this first started being discussed her. Crimes should be identified deterministically - a chain of evidence between the accused and the crime - not statistically

    Indeed:

    With that said, we've always allowed statistical evidence to some extend.

    Going back 100 years, we've allowed blood type in. That's just statistical evidence: it doesn't tell you that [x] did it, but it does tell you that [x] is one of only 25% of the population who could have done it.

    Statistical evidence is just circumstantial evidence.

    And the key thing, though, is to make it clear its limits, and to make sure that it's only part of the evidence presented.
  • As long as Sir Keir continues to lead the best PM metric - and he is now leading Farage by six points - his odds of re-election must be high.

    I really should just dump a load of money on Labour most seats.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,544

    As long as Sir Keir continues to lead the best PM metric - and he is now leading Farage by six points - his odds of re-election must be high.

    I really should just dump a load of money on Labour most seats.

    I'm not sure it is as simple as that. From July 5th Labour got the blame for the state of the economy. That won't change for a long while.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,544

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188

    As long as Sir Keir continues to lead the best PM metric - and he is now leading Farage by six points - his odds of re-election must be high.

    I really should just dump a load of money on Labour most seats.

    Not really, Callaghan led Thatcher on the best PM metric in 1979.

    There's a strong incumbency bias, the polling is usually only useful when somebody other than the PM leads it.

    That's why net satisfaction/approval rating are a better metric.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,740

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
  • As long as Sir Keir continues to lead the best PM metric - and he is now leading Farage by six points - his odds of re-election must be high.

    I really should just dump a load of money on Labour most seats.

    Not really, Callaghan led Thatcher on the best PM metric in 1979.

    There's a strong incumbency bias, the polling is usually only useful when somebody other than the PM leads it.

    That's why net satisfaction/approval rating are a better metric.
    As usual I disagree with you.

    I’m going to stick a load of money on Labour most seats.
  • DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    If Farage had lead the campaign it would have lost. It was Johnson and Gove that won it.

    I don’t like Farage fundamentally because I think he hates this country.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292

    As long as Sir Keir continues to lead the best PM metric - and he is now leading Farage by six points - his odds of re-election must be high.

    I really should just dump a load of money on Labour most seats.

    A lot of the value has gone now though. 2.3 compared to 2.9 a month or so ago.
  • kinabalu said:

    As long as Sir Keir continues to lead the best PM metric - and he is now leading Farage by six points - his odds of re-election must be high.

    I really should just dump a load of money on Labour most seats.

    A lot of the value has gone now though. 2.3 compared to 2.9 a month or so ago.
    Still some value I reckon. Most seats has to be close to odds on in my view.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641
    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Nurses take notes home all the time. They shouldn’t, but they do. (I bet intensive care nurses stopped taking notes home after the Letby case though, once they realised it could be used against them.) The notes to herself about guilt are ones the therapist appointed to her by her employer told her to make apparently.

    According to sources I’ve seen, it was standard practice in the neonatal department to not “rush to intervene” with a crashing baby (in case you made things worse presumably) but to stand by at first, so that doesn’t really count either.

    This is the thing with the Letby case, it’s a pile of suspicious sounding stories that sound like clear evidence of her guilt /if/ you think she’s already guilty. If not? They evaporate into thin air.

    The only hard evidence is the insulin poisoning & if that fails, it seems to me that everything else fails with it.

    Nurses don’t usually take home the notes of babies that died and stash them under the bed and then lie about not being able to dispose of them.

    A therapist told her to write about her feelings. The therapist did NOT tell her to confess to baby murders in those notes. What she wrote in those notes was up to her.

    I don’t know what nonsense you’ve come up with around desaturating infants, but, no, you don’t just stand there.

    You ignored other points I had noted. There was the time the mother of Baby E described hearing her infant scream, and walking in to find him with blood around his mouth and Letby in the room. Baby E later died. There is the other evidence that the deaths were unexpected and unnatural. There is the association between these deaths and Letby being on duty. And so on.
    The association between the deaths and Letby being on duty is because the prosecution dropped deaths when Letby was not on duty. They drew the target around the holes, as it were.

    Rather than bricks in the wall of evidence, the case seems to be made of Swiss cheese after statisticians have demolished the statistical case and the international Shoo Lee commission did the same for the medical case. It is not even clear there were any excess deaths at all compared to similar trusts.
    While I don't know the details, that isn't necessarily the smoking gun you think it is.

    It is possible (and again, I don't know the details, so I am just creating a theory here), that she was on duty half the time, and there were 20 deaths when she was on duty, and 2 when she was not.

    The question -from a statistical point of view- is what would be the normal number of deaths? It is possible that you would expect 2-4 deaths in the period, and therefore when she was not on duty there were a normal number, and when she was, there was an abnormal.

    In which case, excluding the deaths from the case isn't particular evidence of anything.

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict. Someone is going to win the lottery every week, even if the odds are 16 million to 1 against. That doesn't make them a cheat, that makes them the one person who - ah hem - won.
    This was part of the RSS report iirc. First, were there any excess deaths at all, or was the prosecution using the wrong comparator? Second (as you say) clusters can be due to natural variation. Someone has to win the race, someone has to come last.

    Now I am no expert. All I am saying is that experts in statistics have demolished the prosecution's statistical case, and medical experts have demolished the medical case. What we now need is for the CCRC to pull its finger out and not get stuck on legalistic arguments about whether these experts should have had crystal balls so they could have examined the trial before it took place.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,701
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's no longer credible, even for diplomatic reasons, for No10 to "insist" that Trump is a reliable ally.

    US support to maintain UK’s nuclear arsenal is in doubt, experts say
    Malcolm Rifkind joins diplomats and analysts urging focus on European cooperation to replace Trident
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/08/us-support-uk-nuclear-arsenal-in-doubt-trident-france

    In diplomacy for all sorts of reasons, including buying time, holding positions which are not credible is all part of the process. When you are playing 'wait and see' along with buying time for remaking policy you say whatever is needed.
    Another former defence secretary agrees.

    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1898751758404378934
    Extraordinary statement from the UK's former defence secretary: he'd now be ordering an appraisal on decoupling Britain's military capabilities from the U.S. if he were still in the job: "Sir Ben Wallace, former UK defence secretary, said that, if he were still in post, his first response would have been to commission 'an appraisal of our dependencies and vulnerabilities across international partners — including the US'. This would allow reflection 'on whether there needs to be any strategic changes.'"
    Surely that will have been done some time ago (enough serious commentators have been talking about it), and especially given the carefully choreographed cakewalk the Prime Minister has been following?

    How could a strategy be developed without a full analysis of this possibility?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jogbQyYyxSg&t=09s

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292
    edited March 9
    Is Lowe more of a proper fascist than Farage then? I wasn't aware of big policy or ideological differences between the two. I thought they were both pretty bog standard old (public) school City reactionaries.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 4,663
    edited March 9
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    If Farage had lead the campaign it would have lost. It was Johnson and Gove that won it.

    I don’t like Farage fundamentally because I think he hates this country.
    I don't think that he hates this country. But he wants a different country from the vast majority of the population including me and you.
    I passionately think he does hate this country. He talks it down and allies with Russia.

    I realise in hindsight that also Corbyn hates this country.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    kinabalu said:

    Is Lowe more of a proper fascist than Farage then? I wasn't aware of big policy or ideological differences between the two. I thought they were both pretty bog standard old (public) school City reactionaries.

    Lowe wants to deport 1 million people.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/03/09/rupert-lowe-reform-tried-to-silence-me-on-migration/
  • kinabalu said:

    Is Lowe more of a proper fascist than Farage then? I wasn't aware of big policy or ideological differences between the two. I thought they were both pretty bog standard old (public) school City reactionaries.

    Lowe wants to deport 1 million people.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/03/09/rupert-lowe-reform-tried-to-silence-me-on-migration/
    Scumbag.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,129

    kinabalu said:

    Is Lowe more of a proper fascist than Farage then? I wasn't aware of big policy or ideological differences between the two. I thought they were both pretty bog standard old (public) school City reactionaries.

    Lowe wants to deport 1 million people.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/03/09/rupert-lowe-reform-tried-to-silence-me-on-migration/
    Do Labour and the Tories not want to deport all illegal immigrants?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,769
    Good afternoon

    Starmer has performed well on the Trump crisis but let's not forget he is pro triple lock, wants to slash spending on disability benefits, also sacrificing foreign aid for defence, promoting a third runway at Heathrow, watering down rules on evs, anti free movement and joining the single market, all of which are conservative policies apart from the triple lock which they want to change

    The mps sitting behind him are his problem going forward and if the last few weeks are anything to go by predicting a second Starmer term is wish casting

    As for Farage, I hope Reform collapse but maybe we need to see because if Trump is anything to go by he retains considerable domestic US support which is frightening
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,279
    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?
  • kinabalu said:

    Is Lowe more of a proper fascist than Farage then? I wasn't aware of big policy or ideological differences between the two. I thought they were both pretty bog standard old (public) school City reactionaries.

    Lowe wants to deport 1 million people.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/03/09/rupert-lowe-reform-tried-to-silence-me-on-migration/
    Do Labour and the Tories not want to deport all illegal immigrants?
    If they are legitimate asylum seekers, I think they should be put to work and can contribute to the economy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,982
    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    He nearly blew Brexit with his poster campaign.

    It all has to be about Nigel.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,829

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Nurses take notes home all the time. They shouldn’t, but they do. (I bet intensive care nurses stopped taking notes home after the Letby case though, once they realised it could be used against them.) The notes to herself about guilt are ones the therapist appointed to her by her employer told her to make apparently.

    According to sources I’ve seen, it was standard practice in the neonatal department to not “rush to intervene” with a crashing baby (in case you made things worse presumably) but to stand by at first, so that doesn’t really count either.

    This is the thing with the Letby case, it’s a pile of suspicious sounding stories that sound like clear evidence of her guilt /if/ you think she’s already guilty. If not? They evaporate into thin air.

    The only hard evidence is the insulin poisoning & if that fails, it seems to me that everything else fails with it.

    Nurses don’t usually take home the notes of babies that died and stash them under the bed and then lie about not being able to dispose of them.

    A therapist told her to write about her feelings. The therapist did NOT tell her to confess to baby murders in those notes. What she wrote in those notes was up to her.

    I don’t know what nonsense you’ve come up with around desaturating infants, but, no, you don’t just stand there.

    You ignored other points I had noted. There was the time the mother of Baby E described hearing her infant scream, and walking in to find him with blood around his mouth and Letby in the room. Baby E later died. There is the other evidence that the deaths were unexpected and unnatural. There is the association between these deaths and Letby being on duty. And so on.
    The association between the deaths and Letby being on duty is because the prosecution dropped deaths when Letby was not on duty. They drew the target around the holes, as it were.

    Rather than bricks in the wall of evidence, the case seems to be made of Swiss cheese after statisticians have demolished the statistical case and the international Shoo Lee commission did the same for the medical case. It is not even clear there were any excess deaths at all compared to similar trusts.
    While I don't know the details, that isn't necessarily the smoking gun you think it is.

    It is possible (and again, I don't know the details, so I am just creating a theory here), that she was on duty half the time, and there were 20 deaths when she was on duty, and 2 when she was not.

    The question -from a statistical point of view- is what would be the normal number of deaths? It is possible that you would expect 2-4 deaths in the period, and therefore when she was not on duty there were a normal number, and when she was, there was an abnormal.

    In which case, excluding the deaths from the case isn't particular evidence of anything.

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict. Someone is going to win the lottery every week, even if the odds are 16 million to 1 against. That doesn't make them a cheat, that makes them the one person who - ah hem - won.
    This was part of the RSS report iirc. First, were there any excess deaths at all, or was the prosecution using the wrong comparator? Second (as you say) clusters can be due to natural variation. Someone has to win the race, someone has to come last.

    Now I am no expert. All I am saying is that experts in statistics have demolished the prosecution's statistical case, and medical experts have demolished the medical case. What we now need is for the CCRC to pull its finger out and not get stuck on legalistic arguments about whether these experts should have had crystal balls so they could have examined the trial before it took place.
    I'm not sure "demolished" is quite right: I think the right phrase is "asked some very serious questions". And I also think that Letby's defence was very poor.

    That said, I am still on the fence regarding her guilt. The insulin levels, IIRC, were a particular concern that I think need to lead one to believe that a crime actually took place.
  • stodge said:

    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?

    We should have expected it when that user decided to tell us how brilliant Reform were and how Farage would be PM soon. Sir Keir was finished.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,256
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    If Farage had lead the campaign it would have lost. It was Johnson and Gove that won it.

    I don’t like Farage fundamentally because I think he hates this country.
    I don't think that he hates this country. But he wants a different country from the vast majority of the population including me and you.
    Like a lot of people on the nationalist right, he claims to love his country while at the same time hating many of the people in it, harking back to a mythical past while criticising its modern incarnation.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292

    kinabalu said:

    Is Lowe more of a proper fascist than Farage then? I wasn't aware of big policy or ideological differences between the two. I thought they were both pretty bog standard old (public) school City reactionaries.

    Lowe wants to deport 1 million people.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/03/09/rupert-lowe-reform-tried-to-silence-me-on-migration/
    Ah ok. Yes that's fruity. I wonder how many RUK supporters are onboard with that. I'd say about a third but higher amongst members.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,829

    kinabalu said:

    Is Lowe more of a proper fascist than Farage then? I wasn't aware of big policy or ideological differences between the two. I thought they were both pretty bog standard old (public) school City reactionaries.

    Lowe wants to deport 1 million people.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/03/09/rupert-lowe-reform-tried-to-silence-me-on-migration/
    Do Labour and the Tories not want to deport all illegal immigrants?
    Deporting is too good for them, surely.
  • My God Johnson has turned out to be an utter cretin on Ukraine.

    His entire approach was clearly self-interest related. What a tosser.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292

    kinabalu said:

    As long as Sir Keir continues to lead the best PM metric - and he is now leading Farage by six points - his odds of re-election must be high.

    I really should just dump a load of money on Labour most seats.

    A lot of the value has gone now though. 2.3 compared to 2.9 a month or so ago.
    Still some value I reckon. Most seats has to be close to odds on in my view.
    In which case, yes, you shouldn't shy away from the 2.3 just because it used to be a lot bigger.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As long as Sir Keir continues to lead the best PM metric - and he is now leading Farage by six points - his odds of re-election must be high.

    I really should just dump a load of money on Labour most seats.

    A lot of the value has gone now though. 2.3 compared to 2.9 a month or so ago.
    Still some value I reckon. Most seats has to be close to odds on in my view.
    In which case, yes, you shouldn't shy away from the 2.3 just because it used to be a lot bigger.
    I’ll jump on.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,740

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    If Farage had lead the campaign it would have lost. It was Johnson and Gove that won it.

    I don’t like Farage fundamentally because I think he hates this country.
    I don't think that he hates this country. But he wants a different country from the vast majority of the population including me and you.
    Like a lot of people on the nationalist right, he claims to love his country while at the same time hating many of the people in it, harking back to a mythical past while criticising its modern incarnation.
    Yep that is fair. Corbyn was the same on the other side. He loved this country but hated almost everything it had done in its history because he regarded it as immoral and disapproved of anything that was actually in our interests today for the same reason.

    Both different kinds of fruitcakes.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Nurses take notes home all the time. They shouldn’t, but they do. (I bet intensive care nurses stopped taking notes home after the Letby case though, once they realised it could be used against them.) The notes to herself about guilt are ones the therapist appointed to her by her employer told her to make apparently.

    According to sources I’ve seen, it was standard practice in the neonatal department to not “rush to intervene” with a crashing baby (in case you made things worse presumably) but to stand by at first, so that doesn’t really count either.

    This is the thing with the Letby case, it’s a pile of suspicious sounding stories that sound like clear evidence of her guilt /if/ you think she’s already guilty. If not? They evaporate into thin air.

    The only hard evidence is the insulin poisoning & if that fails, it seems to me that everything else fails with it.

    Nurses don’t usually take home the notes of babies that died and stash them under the bed and then lie about not being able to dispose of them.

    A therapist told her to write about her feelings. The therapist did NOT tell her to confess to baby murders in those notes. What she wrote in those notes was up to her.

    I don’t know what nonsense you’ve come up with around desaturating infants, but, no, you don’t just stand there.

    You ignored other points I had noted. There was the time the mother of Baby E described hearing her infant scream, and walking in to find him with blood around his mouth and Letby in the room. Baby E later died. There is the other evidence that the deaths were unexpected and unnatural. There is the association between these deaths and Letby being on duty. And so on.
    The association between the deaths and Letby being on duty is because the prosecution dropped deaths when Letby was not on duty. They drew the target around the holes, as it were.

    Rather than bricks in the wall of evidence, the case seems to be made of Swiss cheese after statisticians have demolished the statistical case and the international Shoo Lee commission did the same for the medical case. It is not even clear there were any excess deaths at all compared to similar trusts.
    While I don't know the details, that isn't necessarily the smoking gun you think it is.

    It is possible (and again, I don't know the details, so I am just creating a theory here), that she was on duty half the time, and there were 20 deaths when she was on duty, and 2 when she was not.

    The question -from a statistical point of view- is what would be the normal number of deaths? It is possible that you would expect 2-4 deaths in the period, and therefore when she was not on duty there were a normal number, and when she was, there was an abnormal.

    In which case, excluding the deaths from the case isn't particular evidence of anything.

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict. Someone is going to win the lottery every week, even if the odds are 16 million to 1 against. That doesn't make them a cheat, that makes them the one person who - ah hem - won.
    This was part of the RSS report iirc. First, were there any excess deaths at all, or was the prosecution using the wrong comparator? Second (as you say) clusters can be due to natural variation. Someone has to win the race, someone has to come last.

    Now I am no expert. All I am saying is that experts in statistics have demolished the prosecution's statistical case, and medical experts have demolished the medical case. What we now need is for the CCRC to pull its finger out and not get stuck on legalistic arguments about whether these experts should have had crystal balls so they could have examined the trial before it took place.
    I'm not sure "demolished" is quite right: I think the right phrase is "asked some very serious questions". And I also think that Letby's defence was very poor.

    That said, I am still on the fence regarding her guilt. The insulin levels, IIRC, were a particular concern that I think need to lead one to believe that a crime actually took place.
    See the previous thread (or the Shoo Lee report) discrediting the insulin evidence. Unfortunately the quoting got messed up so it is hard to follow the subthread.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,279
    Afternoon all :)

    Sixth Indian wicket taken by the Kiwis - may be too little too late. You just sense 275 would have been the ideal total.

    On other matters - the Conservatives, although down to 20% in last night's Opinium poll, are going to be the winners from any Reform implosion. To be fair, the contradictions within Reform have always been there for all to see - indeed, beyond a hostility to immigration, there's not a lot holding the party together in policy terms.

    Farage and Tice are unreconstructed Thatcherites wanting to cut public spending and taxes but there's another side to Reform and that's about supporting WWC areas with more money.

    We're also seeing the emergence of the issue of re-migration whatever that means and however that might work.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,279

    stodge said:

    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?

    We should have expected it when that user decided to tell us how brilliant Reform were and how Farage would be PM soon. Sir Keir was finished.
    That's an awful response which has completely, totally and utterly missed the point.

    India have won the cricket by the way.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,740
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Sixth Indian wicket taken by the Kiwis - may be too little too late. You just sense 275 would have been the ideal total.

    On other matters - the Conservatives, although down to 20% in last night's Opinium poll, are going to be the winners from any Reform implosion. To be fair, the contradictions within Reform have always been there for all to see - indeed, beyond a hostility to immigration, there's not a lot holding the party together in policy terms.

    Farage and Tice are unreconstructed Thatcherites wanting to cut public spending and taxes but there's another side to Reform and that's about supporting WWC areas with more money.

    We're also seeing the emergence of the issue of re-migration whatever that means and however that might work.

    India are so incredibly strong with bat and ball that they have won despite me predicting that they would do so. Truly impressive.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292
    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?

    We should have expected it when that user decided to tell us how brilliant Reform were and how Farage would be PM soon. Sir Keir was finished.
    That's an awful response which has completely, totally and utterly missed the point.

    India have won the cricket by the way.
    No your original post was juvenile and silly. I expect better from you. Weak.
  • I will say, thank God Corbyn did not win in 2017 or 2019.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    stodge said:

    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?

    Yay!

    Somebody spotted my subtle Joy Division reference.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,740
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
    I think he put off way more people than he brought in and coloured the leave campaign with an unfortunate sheen of xenophobia, dishonesty and lies. Much of the bitterness we have seen since the vote has been a result of his antics. He is contemptible.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,524
    @ydoethur FPT

    What happened to her was awful, but she was unreliable and inconsistent in her evidence. In the absence of a charge and proper investigation of the crime it is hard to say whether she was raped, and if so by whom.

    As I have already indicated, there are very good reason to treat the DNA results with considerable caution.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,769

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?

    We should have expected it when that user decided to tell us how brilliant Reform were and how Farage would be PM soon. Sir Keir was finished.
    That's an awful response which has completely, totally and utterly missed the point.

    India have won the cricket by the way.
    No your original post was juvenile and silly. I expect better from you. Weak.
    I would just gently say that @stodge is a sensible and knowledgeable member of this forum and nobody is more qualified then you in posting juvenile and silly comments
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292

    stodge said:

    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?

    Yay!

    Somebody spotted my subtle Joy Division reference.
    And did you the curtissy of saying so.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,830
    edited March 9
    So this year's Flyball builds to a climax, with the first semi-final between Belgian world record holders Roadrunners in blue, versus the Storm Chasers from the NW, running in red....

    On the practice run, the Roadrunners looking very good indeed

    So to the first run....very close but the Runners ahead throughout - then a fault from the Chasers, Runners 1:0

    The second run...the Runners take it again, on 14.66 seconds. Can these Belgians be beaten?
  • stodge said:

    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?

    Yay!

    Somebody spotted my subtle Joy Division reference.
    Celebrate the irony?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    edited March 9
    So this is the state of US and Polish relations today.

    I knew Trump 2 would be very bad but I wasn't expecting it to be this bad* so quickly

    https://x.com/marcorubio/status/1898755922492588082

    https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1898771652160389449

    *Evil is the right adjective given how they've treated Ukraine.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,129
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
    I’m not so sure that a referendum on the EU wouldn’t have ended similarly even before Farage was a national figure.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
    I think he put off way more people than he brought in and coloured the leave campaign with an unfortunate sheen of xenophobia, dishonesty and lies. Much of the bitterness we have seen since the vote has been a result of his antics. He is contemptible.
    So you think Leave would have won by more if he'd stayed out of it completely?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,740
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
    I think he put off way more people than he brought in and coloured the leave campaign with an unfortunate sheen of xenophobia, dishonesty and lies. Much of the bitterness we have seen since the vote has been a result of his antics. He is contemptible.
    So you think Leave would have won by more if he'd stayed out of it completely?
    Yes.
  • I don’t agree with @DavidL on some things but his analysis of Farage is spot on.

    Farage was the reason I never contemplated voting for the leave side.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,766
    edited March 9

    So this is the state of US and Polish relations today.

    I knew Trump 2 would be very bad but I wasn't expecting it to be this bad* so quickly

    https://x.com/marcorubio/status/1898755922492588082

    https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1898771652160389449

    *Evil is the right adjective given how they've treated Ukraine.

    Rubio moves seamlessly from don't accuse us of making threats in sentence 1 to making a threat in sentence 2.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,403

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Nurses take notes home all the time. They shouldn’t, but they do. (I bet intensive care nurses stopped taking notes home after the Letby case though, once they realised it could be used against them.) The notes to herself about guilt are ones the therapist appointed to her by her employer told her to make apparently.

    According to sources I’ve seen, it was standard practice in the neonatal department to not “rush to intervene” with a crashing baby (in case you made things worse presumably) but to stand by at first, so that doesn’t really count either.

    This is the thing with the Letby case, it’s a pile of suspicious sounding stories that sound like clear evidence of her guilt /if/ you think she’s already guilty. If not? They evaporate into thin air.

    The only hard evidence is the insulin poisoning & if that fails, it seems to me that everything else fails with it.

    Nurses don’t usually take home the notes of babies that died and stash them under the bed and then lie about not being able to dispose of them.

    A therapist told her to write about her feelings. The therapist did NOT tell her to confess to baby murders in those notes. What she wrote in those notes was up to her.

    I don’t know what nonsense you’ve come up with around desaturating infants, but, no, you don’t just stand there.

    You ignored other points I had noted. There was the time the mother of Baby E described hearing her infant scream, and walking in to find him with blood around his mouth and Letby in the room. Baby E later died. There is the other evidence that the deaths were unexpected and unnatural. There is the association between these deaths and Letby being on duty. And so on.
    The association between the deaths and Letby being on duty is because the prosecution dropped deaths when Letby was not on duty. They drew the target around the holes, as it were.

    Rather than bricks in the wall of evidence, the case seems to be made of Swiss cheese after statisticians have demolished the statistical case and the international Shoo Lee commission did the same for the medical case. It is not even clear there were any excess deaths at all compared to similar trusts.
    While I don't know the details, that isn't necessarily the smoking gun you think it is.

    It is possible (and again, I don't know the details, so I am just creating a theory here), that she was on duty half the time, and there were 20 deaths when she was on duty, and 2 when she was not.

    The question -from a statistical point of view- is what would be the normal number of deaths? It is possible that you would expect 2-4 deaths in the period, and therefore when she was not on duty there were a normal number, and when she was, there was an abnormal.

    In which case, excluding the deaths from the case isn't particular evidence of anything.

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict. Someone is going to win the lottery every week, even if the odds are 16 million to 1 against. That doesn't make them a cheat, that makes them the one person who - ah hem - won.
    This was part of the RSS report iirc. First, were there any excess deaths at all, or was the prosecution using the wrong comparator? Second (as you say) clusters can be due to natural variation. Someone has to win the race, someone has to come last.

    Now I am no expert. All I am saying is that experts in statistics have demolished the prosecution's statistical case, and medical experts have demolished the medical case. What we now need is for the CCRC to pull its finger out and not get stuck on legalistic arguments about whether these experts should have had crystal balls so they could have examined the trial before it took place.
    I'm not sure "demolished" is quite right: I think the right phrase is "asked some very serious questions". And I also think that Letby's defence was very poor.

    That said, I am still on the fence regarding her guilt. The insulin levels, IIRC, were a particular concern that I think need to lead one to believe that a crime actually took place.
    See the previous thread (or the Shoo Lee report) discrediting the insulin evidence. Unfortunately the quoting got messed up so it is hard to follow the subthread.
    I don't think that the insulin evidence is discredited. That ratio of insulin to c-peptide is almost certainly down to pharmaceutical insulin, quite apart from the point that there was no medical reason for a recovering neonate to suddenly massively over produce their own insulin. It was only when the feed bag was taken down and glucose given by other means that the baby's blood sugar recovered.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,830
    edited March 9
    The second semi-final, between Friday's champions the Aces in red, versus Cambridgeshire flyball in blue, one of the few teams ever to beat the Runners...

    On the practice run, very close between the two, Cambridge faster by a nose

    So to the first round: Cambridge fast on the first two legs, a fault from the Aces, pushing to chase, Cambridge 1:0

    Second round, the Aces substitute veteran Hustle for their last leg, but Cambridge lead throughout, Cambridge 2:0

    So the widely anticipated final between the Brits from Cambridgeshire versus the Belgian record holders .. after a go at Sweet Caroline from the audience
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    Feels weird having to cheer for Manchester United today.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,256
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
    I think he put off way more people than he brought in and coloured the leave campaign with an unfortunate sheen of xenophobia, dishonesty and lies. Much of the bitterness we have seen since the vote has been a result of his antics. He is contemptible.
    He had the xenophobia covered but the Johnson/Gove/Cummings campaign gave Farage a run for his money on the dishonesty front, surely. The bitterness also stemmed from the maximalist approach to Brexit followed by both May and Johnson in the wake of Cameron fucking off - the Citizens of Nowhere speech, proroguing parliament, and the general you-lost-suck-it-up-Remoaners tone.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,701
    edited March 9
    I think they are on a sticky wicket, with Reform, bullying and inconsistency - even leaving the strong blowback by Rupert Lowe aside.

    A month before the alleged incident, Lee Anderson himself apologised to the House of Commons for bullying a member of staff of Parliament:

    Lee Anderson Reform UK, Ashfield 1:21, 6 November 2024
    With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a personal statement, in compliance with the findings of the Independent Expert Panel in its report. I accept the findings of the panel and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards in full and without reservation.

    On 23 November 2023, at the Derby Gate entrance, I was involved in an incident with a security guard. During the incident, I spoke to the complainant in a manner that was totally unacceptable, and which including swearing and other language that goes against the House of Commons bullying and harassment policy.

    I would like to apologise to the complainant and to the House for my behaviour. Our security staff do an incredible job and should always be treated with the utmost respect. An MP’s behaviour must always be of a higher standard. I give you, Mr Speaker, and the House my firm assurance that I have learnt significant lessons through this process, and a firm undertaking that such behaviour on my part will never happen again.

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2024-11-06f.316.0#g316.2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on-0q-8H8Pc
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,189
    .

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    It doesn’t require either a conspiracy, or an alliance, whether holy or secular, to think Farage is a knob.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
    I’m not so sure that a referendum on the EU wouldn’t have ended similarly even before Farage was a national figure.
    Could be and we can't know. But my strong impression is he energised a certain part of the electorate behind Brexit better than any other politician inc even Boris Johnson. He campaigned for it for decades after all. And his Ukip insurgence spooked DC into holding the vote.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,189
    “…On day one.”
    kinabalu said:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1898739213656285519

    Trump: "There could be a little disruption. Look, what I have to do is build a strong country. You can't really watch the stock market. If you look at China, they have a 100 year perspective. We go by quarters. And you can't go by that."

    "Four years is nowhere near enough. I need the job for life."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,822
    MattW said:

    I think they are on a sticky wicket, with Reform, bullying and inconsistency - even leaving the strong blowback by Rupert Lowe aside.

    A month before the alleged incident, Lee Anderson himself apologised to the House of Commons for bullying a member of staff of Parliament:

    Lee Anderson Reform UK, Ashfield 1:21, 6 November 2024
    With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a personal statement, in compliance with the findings of the Independent Expert Panel in its report. I accept the findings of the panel and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards in full and without reservation.

    On 23 November 2023, at the Derby Gate entrance, I was involved in an incident with a security guard. During the incident, I spoke to the complainant in a manner that was totally unacceptable, and which including swearing and other language that goes against the House of Commons bullying and harassment policy.

    I would like to apologise to the complainant and to the House for my behaviour. Our security staff do an incredible job and should always be treated with the utmost respect. An MP’s behaviour must always be of a higher standard. I give you, Mr Speaker, and the House my firm assurance that I have learnt significant lessons through this process, and a firm undertaking that such behaviour on my part will never happen again.

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2024-11-06f.316.0#g316.2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on-0q-8H8Pc

    Did he call him a pleb?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,189
    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Nurses take notes home all the time. They shouldn’t, but they do. (I bet intensive care nurses stopped taking notes home after the Letby case though, once they realised it could be used against them.) The notes to herself about guilt are ones the therapist appointed to her by her employer told her to make apparently.

    According to sources I’ve seen, it was standard practice in the neonatal department to not “rush to intervene” with a crashing baby (in case you made things worse presumably) but to stand by at first, so that doesn’t really count either.

    This is the thing with the Letby case, it’s a pile of suspicious sounding stories that sound like clear evidence of her guilt /if/ you think she’s already guilty. If not? They evaporate into thin air.

    The only hard evidence is the insulin poisoning & if that fails, it seems to me that everything else fails with it.

    Nurses don’t usually take home the notes of babies that died and stash them under the bed and then lie about not being able to dispose of them.

    A therapist told her to write about her feelings. The therapist did NOT tell her to confess to baby murders in those notes. What she wrote in those notes was up to her.

    I don’t know what nonsense you’ve come up with around desaturating infants, but, no, you don’t just stand there.

    You ignored other points I had noted. There was the time the mother of Baby E described hearing her infant scream, and walking in to find him with blood around his mouth and Letby in the room. Baby E later died. There is the other evidence that the deaths were unexpected and unnatural. There is the association between these deaths and Letby being on duty. And so on.
    The association between the deaths and Letby being on duty is because the prosecution dropped deaths when Letby was not on duty. They drew the target around the holes, as it were.

    Rather than bricks in the wall of evidence, the case seems to be made of Swiss cheese after statisticians have demolished the statistical case and the international Shoo Lee commission did the same for the medical case. It is not even clear there were any excess deaths at all compared to similar trusts.
    While I don't know the details, that isn't necessarily the smoking gun you think it is.

    It is possible (and again, I don't know the details, so I am just creating a theory here), that she was on duty half the time, and there were 20 deaths when she was on duty, and 2 when she was not.

    The question -from a statistical point of view- is what would be the normal number of deaths? It is possible that you would expect 2-4 deaths in the period, and therefore when she was not on duty there were a normal number, and when she was, there was an abnormal.

    In which case, excluding the deaths from the case isn't particular evidence of anything.

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict. Someone is going to win the lottery every week, even if the odds are 16 million to 1 against. That doesn't make them a cheat, that makes them the one person who - ah hem - won.
    That’s not a very good analogy, though.
    It’s not every week, or even every year, that there are (as per your example) 20 deaths on one shift and two on the following one.

    FWIW, I have no view either way on the case itself.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,769

    Feels weird having to cheer for Manchester United today.

    It's OK

    Liverpool will win the title deservedly so

    United's team today is not a premiership side.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,830
    edited March 9
    So the grand final...no practice run needed: the Runners in blue, Cambridge in red

    First round, a fault from the Runners! Cambridge can stroll to a win...but now a fault from the reds! Another fault from the blues, Cambridge win 1:0

    An upset in the offing here.. so close, but the Runners win through on their third and fourth legs. Evens at 1:1

    So the deciding third run.... Cambridge start fast, but their second dog doesn't get the ball, a fault. Cambridge steam through with their fast finishing dog, and win through on 14.88 seconds.

    The visiting Roadrunners from Belgium win yet again. Beep Beep!

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,724
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Sixth Indian wicket taken by the Kiwis - may be too little too late. You just sense 275 would have been the ideal total.

    On other matters - the Conservatives, although down to 20% in last night's Opinium poll, are going to be the winners from any Reform implosion. To be fair, the contradictions within Reform have always been there for all to see - indeed, beyond a hostility to immigration, there's not a lot holding the party together in policy terms.

    Farage and Tice are unreconstructed Thatcherites wanting to cut public spending and taxes but there's another side to Reform and that's about supporting WWC areas with more money.

    We're also seeing the emergence of the issue of re-migration whatever that means and however that might work.

    India are so incredibly strong with bat and ball that they have won despite me predicting that they would do so. Truly impressive.
    But they won a Pakistani tournament in Dubai, so it’s a moral loss.

    And England took the principled stance we all wanted and didn’t turn up against Afghanistan. So morally we won the tournament.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,829

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Nurses take notes home all the time. They shouldn’t, but they do. (I bet intensive care nurses stopped taking notes home after the Letby case though, once they realised it could be used against them.) The notes to herself about guilt are ones the therapist appointed to her by her employer told her to make apparently.

    According to sources I’ve seen, it was standard practice in the neonatal department to not “rush to intervene” with a crashing baby (in case you made things worse presumably) but to stand by at first, so that doesn’t really count either.

    This is the thing with the Letby case, it’s a pile of suspicious sounding stories that sound like clear evidence of her guilt /if/ you think she’s already guilty. If not? They evaporate into thin air.

    The only hard evidence is the insulin poisoning & if that fails, it seems to me that everything else fails with it.

    Nurses don’t usually take home the notes of babies that died and stash them under the bed and then lie about not being able to dispose of them.

    A therapist told her to write about her feelings. The therapist did NOT tell her to confess to baby murders in those notes. What she wrote in those notes was up to her.

    I don’t know what nonsense you’ve come up with around desaturating infants, but, no, you don’t just stand there.

    You ignored other points I had noted. There was the time the mother of Baby E described hearing her infant scream, and walking in to find him with blood around his mouth and Letby in the room. Baby E later died. There is the other evidence that the deaths were unexpected and unnatural. There is the association between these deaths and Letby being on duty. And so on.
    The association between the deaths and Letby being on duty is because the prosecution dropped deaths when Letby was not on duty. They drew the target around the holes, as it were.

    Rather than bricks in the wall of evidence, the case seems to be made of Swiss cheese after statisticians have demolished the statistical case and the international Shoo Lee commission did the same for the medical case. It is not even clear there were any excess deaths at all compared to similar trusts.
    While I don't know the details, that isn't necessarily the smoking gun you think it is.

    It is possible (and again, I don't know the details, so I am just creating a theory here), that she was on duty half the time, and there were 20 deaths when she was on duty, and 2 when she was not.

    The question -from a statistical point of view- is what would be the normal number of deaths? It is possible that you would expect 2-4 deaths in the period, and therefore when she was not on duty there were a normal number, and when she was, there was an abnormal.

    In which case, excluding the deaths from the case isn't particular evidence of anything.

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict. Someone is going to win the lottery every week, even if the odds are 16 million to 1 against. That doesn't make them a cheat, that makes them the one person who - ah hem - won.
    This was part of the RSS report iirc. First, were there any excess deaths at all, or was the prosecution using the wrong comparator? Second (as you say) clusters can be due to natural variation. Someone has to win the race, someone has to come last.

    Now I am no expert. All I am saying is that experts in statistics have demolished the prosecution's statistical case, and medical experts have demolished the medical case. What we now need is for the CCRC to pull its finger out and not get stuck on legalistic arguments about whether these experts should have had crystal balls so they could have examined the trial before it took place.
    I'm not sure "demolished" is quite right: I think the right phrase is "asked some very serious questions". And I also think that Letby's defence was very poor.

    That said, I am still on the fence regarding her guilt. The insulin levels, IIRC, were a particular concern that I think need to lead one to believe that a crime actually took place.
    See the previous thread (or the Shoo Lee report) discrediting the insulin evidence. Unfortunately the quoting got messed up so it is hard to follow the subthread.
    I did a little bit of research, and it seems that Dr Lee had two criticisms of the insulin evidence: firstly that the tests used were not of forensic quality, and secondly that "the insulin and C-peptide levels observed could be typical for babies of that age".

    The latter point, one would think, could be fairly easily confirmed or rebutted by testing the levels of a few thousand babies.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292

    Feels weird having to cheer for Manchester United today.

    Don't put yourself through that. The title race is over.

    PS: my pre-season bet on Liverpool, hall of famer. Slot is the special one.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,129
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
    I’m not so sure that a referendum on the EU wouldn’t have ended similarly even before Farage was a national figure.
    Could be and we can't know. But my strong impression is he energised a certain part of the electorate behind Brexit better than any other politician inc even Boris Johnson. He campaigned for it for decades after all. And his Ukip insurgence spooked DC into holding the vote.
    I think this is reading history backwards. Support for leaving the EU even during the coalition years was much more broad-based than it became after the referendum polarised people. Brexit was ahead among Labour voters and four out of ten Lib Dems backed it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/nov/17/lib-dem-voters-eu-poll
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    kinabalu said:

    Feels weird having to cheer for Manchester United today.

    Don't put yourself through that. The title race is over.

    PS: my pre-season bet on Liverpool, hall of famer. Slot is the special one.
    It's not over until it is mathematically over.

    You should be proud of that bet, Slot isn't the special one, he's the lucky one, according to so many opposing fans Liverpool haven't played anybody good this season.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,822
    kinabalu said:

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1898739213656285519

    Trump: "There could be a little disruption. Look, what I have to do is build a strong country. You can't really watch the stock market. If you look at China, they have a 100 year perspective. We go by quarters. And you can't go by that."

    "Four years is nowhere near enough. I need the job for life."
    He definitely needs life.

    The question remains: Sing Sing or Florence?
  • The England cricket team are absolutely finished against any decent side. Clear Bazball out.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,822

    The England cricket team are absolutely finished against any decent side. Clear Bazball out.

    Just clear Rob Key and Zak Crawley out.

    Plus Livingstone, Salt, etc.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    There's now an unholy alliance between the left and the right to bring down Nigel Farage.

    The growth of the right-wing media ecosystem will make it much harder for Farage to control the narrative this time.

    What are you on about?
    If you look at the responses to Farage/Reform on Facebook and Twitter, he is being pulled apart by supporters of Lowe as well as people who've always hated "Nigel Fucking Farage".
    I've always hated Nigel flipping Farage. You are welcome to join my club.

    He was a tosspot in 2016, but he still "won" Brexit.
    I've always believed that Leave won despite Nigel Farage, not because of him.
    I'd say yes and no. If he'd led the Leave campaign they'd have lost. But if he'd not been a part of it they'd also have lost. The anti-immigration and general "fuck the establishment" vote was needed to get over the line and Farage was key to delivering that.
    I think he put off way more people than he brought in and coloured the leave campaign with an unfortunate sheen of xenophobia, dishonesty and lies. Much of the bitterness we have seen since the vote has been a result of his antics. He is contemptible.
    He had the xenophobia covered but the Johnson/Gove/Cummings campaign gave Farage a run for his money on the dishonesty front, surely. The bitterness also stemmed from the maximalist approach to Brexit followed by both May and Johnson in the wake of Cameron fucking off - the Citizens of Nowhere speech, proroguing parliament, and the general you-lost-suck-it-up-Remoaners tone.
    Although tbf Johnson probably wasn't any more mendacious in the service of Leave than he was at any other point in his life and career.
  • ydoethur said:

    The England cricket team are absolutely finished against any decent side. Clear Bazball out.

    Just clear Rob Key and Zak Crawley out.

    Plus Livingstone, Salt, etc.
    Genuinely baffled how Salt is still in the team.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,078
    stodge said:

    Do we take any Joy watching the Division in Reform?

    depends on the new order that emerges...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,142
    FPT
    Nigelb said:

    Europe should have a chat with Japan.

    TRUMP: "We have an interesting deal with Japan, that we have to protect them, but they don't have to protect us.... who makes these deals?"
    https://x.com/KareemRifai/status/1897792955781374142

    Well the US enforced that arrangement on Japan after WW2 as part of demilitarising their former enemy.

    But I wouldn't expect Trump to understand anything about history, even relativeky recent history.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,830
    edited March 9
    Next up on this super Sunday, the Small and Medium category agility finals....

    all grade seven dogs. Mine is at grade three.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,829
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Nurses take notes home all the time. They shouldn’t, but they do. (I bet intensive care nurses stopped taking notes home after the Letby case though, once they realised it could be used against them.) The notes to herself about guilt are ones the therapist appointed to her by her employer told her to make apparently.

    According to sources I’ve seen, it was standard practice in the neonatal department to not “rush to intervene” with a crashing baby (in case you made things worse presumably) but to stand by at first, so that doesn’t really count either.

    This is the thing with the Letby case, it’s a pile of suspicious sounding stories that sound like clear evidence of her guilt /if/ you think she’s already guilty. If not? They evaporate into thin air.

    The only hard evidence is the insulin poisoning & if that fails, it seems to me that everything else fails with it.

    Nurses don’t usually take home the notes of babies that died and stash them under the bed and then lie about not being able to dispose of them.

    A therapist told her to write about her feelings. The therapist did NOT tell her to confess to baby murders in those notes. What she wrote in those notes was up to her.

    I don’t know what nonsense you’ve come up with around desaturating infants, but, no, you don’t just stand there.

    You ignored other points I had noted. There was the time the mother of Baby E described hearing her infant scream, and walking in to find him with blood around his mouth and Letby in the room. Baby E later died. There is the other evidence that the deaths were unexpected and unnatural. There is the association between these deaths and Letby being on duty. And so on.
    The association between the deaths and Letby being on duty is because the prosecution dropped deaths when Letby was not on duty. They drew the target around the holes, as it were.

    Rather than bricks in the wall of evidence, the case seems to be made of Swiss cheese after statisticians have demolished the statistical case and the international Shoo Lee commission did the same for the medical case. It is not even clear there were any excess deaths at all compared to similar trusts.
    While I don't know the details, that isn't necessarily the smoking gun you think it is.

    It is possible (and again, I don't know the details, so I am just creating a theory here), that she was on duty half the time, and there were 20 deaths when she was on duty, and 2 when she was not.

    The question -from a statistical point of view- is what would be the normal number of deaths? It is possible that you would expect 2-4 deaths in the period, and therefore when she was not on duty there were a normal number, and when she was, there was an abnormal.

    In which case, excluding the deaths from the case isn't particular evidence of anything.

    A much bigger issue to me is that statistical evidence on its own should not be enough to convict. Someone is going to win the lottery every week, even if the odds are 16 million to 1 against. That doesn't make them a cheat, that makes them the one person who - ah hem - won.
    That’s not a very good analogy, though.
    It’s not every week, or even every year, that there are (as per your example) 20 deaths on one shift and two on the following one.

    FWIW, I have no view either way on the case itself.
    On the other hand, it is perfectly possible that - for any department with slightly above average death rates as a whole - one is able to find a division that aligns most of the deaths with a single employee. That isn't necessarily proof, just statistical noise.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,724
    Nigelb said:

    So this is the state of US and Polish relations today.

    I knew Trump 2 would be very bad but I wasn't expecting it to be this bad* so quickly

    https://x.com/marcorubio/status/1898755922492588082

    https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1898771652160389449

    *Evil is the right adjective given how they've treated Ukraine.

    The attitude of the Trump administration is grovel, or we won’t talk to you - and when you do, don’t dare argue with what we tell you.

    Trump shows more respect to the two bit dictator that rules North Korea than he does to any of his supposed US allies in Europe. The room for triangulation is becoming non existent.

    And, btw, little Marco, Russia already borders Poland.
    Yes, the requirement is not so much for a Love Actually moment as Malcolm Tucker moment.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,142

    So this is the state of US and Polish relations today.

    I knew Trump 2 would be very bad but I wasn't expecting it to be this bad* so quickly

    https://x.com/marcorubio/status/1898755922492588082

    https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1898771652160389449

    *Evil is the right adjective given how they've treated Ukraine.

    A Secretary of State who doesn't realise that Poland and Russia do share a border.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,292
    Nigelb said:

    So this is the state of US and Polish relations today.

    I knew Trump 2 would be very bad but I wasn't expecting it to be this bad* so quickly

    https://x.com/marcorubio/status/1898755922492588082

    https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1898771652160389449

    *Evil is the right adjective given how they've treated Ukraine.

    The attitude of the Trump administration is grovel, or we won’t talk to you - and when you do, don’t dare argue with what we tell you.

    Trump shows more respect to the two bit dictator that rules North Korea than he does to any of his supposed US allies in Europe. The room for triangulation is becoming non existent.
    He's also a hapless shambles. Totally out of his depth in big ticket geopolitics and on the economy. I'm not convinced he'll get through the term.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,960

    kinabalu said:

    Feels weird having to cheer for Manchester United today.

    Don't put yourself through that. The title race is over.

    PS: my pre-season bet on Liverpool, hall of famer. Slot is the special one.
    It's not over until it is mathematically over.

    You should be proud of that bet, Slot isn't the special one, he's the lucky one, according to so many opposing fans Liverpool haven't played anybody good this season.
    Have you seen that Limburger level cheesy ad that Klopp has done for Trivago? Wtf was he thinking?
Sign In or Register to comment.