What Brits think about the Big Mac eating surrender monkey's plans for Ukraine politicalbetting.com

bigjohnowls said:

SKS fans please explain

https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1890075390590476428

Theuniondivvie said:

geoffw said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

MarqueeMark said:

geoffw said:

Telegraph
Ed Miliband has pledged a permanent ban on fracking just days after the discovery of a giant gas field in Britain was announced.

Well, the gas is going nowhere...

Indeed. Best keep it where it is until we really need it for essential industrial purposes rather than flogging/burning it now. Our kids will thank us.

So best to import it from our neighbours or as LNG from further afield ...

You can be sure if things get tricky that we (however ‘we’ might be constituted) won’t be able to import it from from our neighbours or as LNG from further afield.

turbotubbs said:

MJW said:

Mexicanpete said:

maxh said:

Just watched Vance's speech to the Munich security conference today.

It is well worth a listen, whatever your politics. He makes an excellent challenge to Europe. I believe strongly that we should listen to his arguments, even if he has little credibility as a messenger.

For those who haven't listened, essentially he argues that Europe's biggest threat to security is our own desire to censor certain voices and not to listen to voters who want to vote for e.g. AfD. His strongest argument is that we cannot win by pretending far right parties are not popular.

My problem with his speech, though, is the blatant hypocrisy. To have Musk at the centre of your government and to lecture others on free speech is, to put it mildly, shameless.

My other problem is that he does not make any attempt to address the other side of the argument i.e. that the reason we need to fight against misinformation is that those such as Musk are in the business of spreading it, because it is profitable.

In my view the only way that we achieve the good parts of what Vance argues for (more robust free speech) is if we ensure that the megaphones that amplify speech in our democracy (media of all sorts) are working for us not against us.

The interesting feature of the free speech argument is (whatever side of the fence we sit) our free speech is good and should be celebrated, but other people's free speech is dangerous and should be banned.

The basic problem with Vance's claptrap is that it's a massive overselling of the idea Europe "censors" certain voices based on a very American ignorance of how different norms, laws, and practices developed in Europe, and the extent to which they are in practice restrictive and not the will of the people.

The one example he cited - a British man being arrested for 'praying' outside an abortion clinic - was carried out under laws introduced by those well known Marxists Priti Patel and Suella Braverman. It exists because Brits broadly don't mind banning behaviour we don't like, are fairly solidly pro the right to abortion, our religion isn't generally evangelical, and we judge the potential distress to women worth blocking. So introduced exclusion zones because clinics were being targeted.

Proudly secular France of course has its ban on religious symbols, while Germany, for understandable reasons, has strict bans on Nazi symbolism. Each country has their own norms that broadly allow free speech and protest but place certain restrictions on it when deem the nuissance or dangers are too much.

Americans fetishise their 1st ammendment rights rhetorically, but we all know in practice it's somewhat different and are no better. There's no bigger reminder of that than the current administration trying to fire anyone who isn't a Trumpian wingnut, or Elon's banning of views he doesn't like from Twitter while claiming to be a free speech warrior. The only difference is that they are massive, hectoring, ignorant, hypocrites about it.

Despite Vance's claims the views he wants to whinge as being victimised aren't banned from the public sphere - as evidenced by the success of certain parties holding them. They might be socially unacceptable in some circles or looked down upon by liberal politicians but that's not the same thing as being unfairly restricted. Liberals have as much right to hate the far right as the far right do liberals.

What Vance is doing is rather inversion by trying to be a crybully - ironically, rather like the worst kind of 'wokeness' - saying it's so unfair you don't accept my views and reasoning as right, despite its obvious ignorance. Then I'll scream like a baby and demand as my right to 'free speech' that you have to not just allow me to say what I say, but go along with it too.

Truly a pathetic specimen, and yes, a Big Mac Eating Surrender Monkey to boot.

I think he chose a poor example but there are better ones. Take trans. I think the prevailing ‘right opinion’ is that you can change your gender, so a biological man, with xy chromosomes throughout, a prostate, a penis, a preponderance of testosterone etc can simply say ‘I am a woman’ and everyone has to say, yes, you are a woman. Don’t agree? You can end up suspended at work and accused of harassment.
So yes there is a culture of there being the ‘correct’ opinion and dissent is not welcome.
There are other subjects - race and immigration where people fear to say what they really think.
So I think he is right to an extent, just not using the right examples.

FeersumEnjineeya said:

MarqueeMark said:

geoffw said:

Telegraph
Ed Miliband has pledged a permanent ban on fracking just days after the discovery of a giant gas field in Britain was announced.

Well, the gas is going nowhere...

Indeed. Best keep it where it is until we really need it for essential industrial purposes rather than flogging/burning it now. Our kids will thank us.

murali_s said:

JD Vance (like Trump and Musk) is just a smelly c*nt! Anyone disagree?

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

geoffw said:

Pagan2 said:

SteveS said:

Chris said:

maxh said:

Chris said:

maxh said:

Chris said:

maxh said:

Just watched Vance's speech to the Munich security conference today.

It is well worth a listen, whatever your politics. He makes an excellent challenge to Europe. I believe strongly that we should listen to his arguments, even if he has little credibility as a messenger.

For those who haven't listened, essentially he argues that Europe's biggest threat to security is our own desire to censor certain voices and not to listen to voters who want to vote for e.g. AfD. His strongest argument is that we cannot win by pretending far right parties are not popular.

My problem with his speech, though, is the blatant hypocrisy. To have Musk at the centre of your government and to lecture others on free speech is, to put it mildly, shameless.

My other problem is that he does not make any attempt to address the other side of the argument i.e. that the reason we need to fight against misinformation is that those such as Musk are in the business of spreading it, because it is profitable.

In my view the only way that we achieve the good parts of what Vance argues for (more robust free speech) is if we ensure that the megaphones that amplify speech in our democracy (media of all sorts) are working for us not against us.

"Our desire to censor voices" is just a hard-right fantasy that the likes of Musk use to try to justify an overwhelming stream of online disinformation.

What fools people are to believe a word of this crap.

It very clearly isn't just a hard-right fantasy. It only happens at the margins and is perhaps the least worst way to deal with the misinformation that is being firehosed at us. But to deny it's existence is naive. How else would you characterise the way we handled vaccine misinformation during COVID?

The trouble is that the world is full of useful idiots like you, who seem to think that "free speech" means lies should be allowed to propagate without correction or challenge.

Are you incapable of having a discussion without being insulting?

I would in no way characterise free speech in the way you suggest. I would have thought that was obvious from my first post. I have no desire to make the effort to spell it out given the tone of your response.

You come out with a nonsensical statement and then blame your inability to justify it on the "tone" of the response you get.

Well yes. You lost the argument as soon as you typed ‘useful idiots’.

Chris has always been an idiot I just ignore his posts as he is a wanker

Pragmatic self-refutation

We cannot win by pretending the Nazis aren't popular.

Erm?

Quite sure a lot think the same of me if thats what you mean and frankly don't care if they do. Does not mean I cannot to express an opinion

geoffw said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

geoffw said:

Pagan2 said:

SteveS said:

Chris said:

maxh said:

Chris said:

maxh said:

Chris said:

maxh said:

Just watched Vance's speech to the Munich security conference today.

It is well worth a listen, whatever your politics. He makes an excellent challenge to Europe. I believe strongly that we should listen to his arguments, even if he has little credibility as a messenger.

For those who haven't listened, essentially he argues that Europe's biggest threat to security is our own desire to censor certain voices and not to listen to voters who want to vote for e.g. AfD. His strongest argument is that we cannot win by pretending far right parties are not popular.

My problem with his speech, though, is the blatant hypocrisy. To have Musk at the centre of your government and to lecture others on free speech is, to put it mildly, shameless.

My other problem is that he does not make any attempt to address the other side of the argument i.e. that the reason we need to fight against misinformation is that those such as Musk are in the business of spreading it, because it is profitable.

In my view the only way that we achieve the good parts of what Vance argues for (more robust free speech) is if we ensure that the megaphones that amplify speech in our democracy (media of all sorts) are working for us not against us.

"Our desire to censor voices" is just a hard-right fantasy that the likes of Musk use to try to justify an overwhelming stream of online disinformation.

What fools people are to believe a word of this crap.

It very clearly isn't just a hard-right fantasy. It only happens at the margins and is perhaps the least worst way to deal with the misinformation that is being firehosed at us. But to deny it's existence is naive. How else would you characterise the way we handled vaccine misinformation during COVID?

The trouble is that the world is full of useful idiots like you, who seem to think that "free speech" means lies should be allowed to propagate without correction or challenge.

Are you incapable of having a discussion without being insulting?

I would in no way characterise free speech in the way you suggest. I would have thought that was obvious from my first post. I have no desire to make the effort to spell it out given the tone of your response.

You come out with a nonsensical statement and then blame your inability to justify it on the "tone" of the response you get.

Well yes. You lost the argument as soon as you typed ‘useful idiots’.

Chris has always been an idiot I just ignore his posts as he is a wanker

Pragmatic self-refutation

We cannot win by pretending the Nazis aren't popular.

Erm?

Quite sure a lot think the same of me if thats what you mean and frankly don't care if they do. Does not mean I cannot to express an opinion

Umm .. my "pragmatic self-refutation" comment was just referring to your saying "Chris has always been an idiot I just ignore his posts .. " when you obviously have not ignored his posts because you have observed that he's always been an idiot

williamglenn said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

So Vance comes to Europe with the objective of getting Europe to get serious about its own defence, Europe responds by doing just that, and Vance is the idiot?

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

maxh said:

Just watched Vance's speech to the Munich security conference today.

It is well worth a listen, whatever your politics. He makes an excellent challenge to Europe. I believe strongly that we should listen to his arguments, even if he has little credibility as a messenger.

For those who haven't listened, essentially he argues that Europe's biggest threat to security is our own desire to censor certain voices and not to listen to voters who want to vote for e.g. AfD. His strongest argument is that we cannot win by pretending far right parties are not popular.

My problem with his speech, though, is the blatant hypocrisy. To have Musk at the centre of your government and to lecture others on free speech is, to put it mildly, shameless.

My other problem is that he does not make any attempt to address the other side of the argument i.e. that the reason we need to fight against misinformation is that those such as Musk are in the business of spreading it, because it is profitable.

In my view the only way that we achieve the good parts of what Vance argues for (more robust free speech) is if we ensure that the megaphones that amplify speech in our democracy (media of all sorts) are working for us not against us.

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

turbotubbs said:

MJW said:

Mexicanpete said:

maxh said:

Just watched Vance's speech to the Munich security conference today.

It is well worth a listen, whatever your politics. He makes an excellent challenge to Europe. I believe strongly that we should listen to his arguments, even if he has little credibility as a messenger.

For those who haven't listened, essentially he argues that Europe's biggest threat to security is our own desire to censor certain voices and not to listen to voters who want to vote for e.g. AfD. His strongest argument is that we cannot win by pretending far right parties are not popular.

My problem with his speech, though, is the blatant hypocrisy. To have Musk at the centre of your government and to lecture others on free speech is, to put it mildly, shameless.

My other problem is that he does not make any attempt to address the other side of the argument i.e. that the reason we need to fight against misinformation is that those such as Musk are in the business of spreading it, because it is profitable.

In my view the only way that we achieve the good parts of what Vance argues for (more robust free speech) is if we ensure that the megaphones that amplify speech in our democracy (media of all sorts) are working for us not against us.

The interesting feature of the free speech argument is (whatever side of the fence we sit) our free speech is good and should be celebrated, but other people's free speech is dangerous and should be banned.

The basic problem with Vance's claptrap is that it's a massive overselling of the idea Europe "censors" certain voices based on a very American ignorance of how different norms, laws, and practices developed in Europe, and the extent to which they are in practice restrictive and not the will of the people.

The one example he cited - a British man being arrested for 'praying' outside an abortion clinic - was carried out under laws introduced by those well known Marxists Priti Patel and Suella Braverman. It exists because Brits broadly don't mind banning behaviour we don't like, are fairly solidly pro the right to abortion, our religion isn't generally evangelical, and we judge the potential distress to women worth blocking. So introduced exclusion zones because clinics were being targeted.

Proudly secular France of course has its ban on religious symbols, while Germany, for understandable reasons, has strict bans on Nazi symbolism. Each country has their own norms that broadly allow free speech and protest but place certain restrictions on it when deem the nuissance or dangers are too much.

Americans fetishise their 1st ammendment rights rhetorically, but we all know in practice it's somewhat different and are no better. There's no bigger reminder of that than the current administration trying to fire anyone who isn't a Trumpian wingnut, or Elon's banning of views he doesn't like from Twitter while claiming to be a free speech warrior. The only difference is that they are massive, hectoring, ignorant, hypocrites about it.

Despite Vance's claims the views he wants to whinge as being victimised aren't banned from the public sphere - as evidenced by the success of certain parties holding them. They might be socially unacceptable in some circles or looked down upon by liberal politicians but that's not the same thing as being unfairly restricted. Liberals have as much right to hate the far right as the far right do liberals.

What Vance is doing is rather inversion by trying to be a crybully - ironically, rather like the worst kind of 'wokeness' - saying it's so unfair you don't accept my views and reasoning as right, despite its obvious ignorance. Then I'll scream like a baby and demand as my right to 'free speech' that you have to not just allow me to say what I say, but go along with it too.

Truly a pathetic specimen, and yes, a Big Mac Eating Surrender Monkey to boot.

I think he chose a poor example but there are better ones. Take trans. I think the prevailing ‘right opinion’ is that you can change your gender, so a biological man, with xy chromosomes throughout, a prostate, a penis, a preponderance of testosterone etc can simply say ‘I am a woman’ and everyone has to say, yes, you are a woman. Don’t agree? You can end up suspended at work and accused of harassment.
So yes there is a culture of there being the ‘correct’ opinion and dissent is not welcome.
There are other subjects - race and immigration where people fear to say what they really think.
So I think he is right to an extent, just not using the right examples.

Winchy said:

Pagan2 said:

turbotubbs said:

MJW said:

Mexicanpete said:

maxh said:

Just watched Vance's speech to the Munich security conference today.

It is well worth a listen, whatever your politics. He makes an excellent challenge to Europe. I believe strongly that we should listen to his arguments, even if he has little credibility as a messenger.

For those who haven't listened, essentially he argues that Europe's biggest threat to security is our own desire to censor certain voices and not to listen to voters who want to vote for e.g. AfD. His strongest argument is that we cannot win by pretending far right parties are not popular.

My problem with his speech, though, is the blatant hypocrisy. To have Musk at the centre of your government and to lecture others on free speech is, to put it mildly, shameless.

My other problem is that he does not make any attempt to address the other side of the argument i.e. that the reason we need to fight against misinformation is that those such as Musk are in the business of spreading it, because it is profitable.

In my view the only way that we achieve the good parts of what Vance argues for (more robust free speech) is if we ensure that the megaphones that amplify speech in our democracy (media of all sorts) are working for us not against us.

The interesting feature of the free speech argument is (whatever side of the fence we sit) our free speech is good and should be celebrated, but other people's free speech is dangerous and should be banned.

The basic problem with Vance's claptrap is that it's a massive overselling of the idea Europe "censors" certain voices based on a very American ignorance of how different norms, laws, and practices developed in Europe, and the extent to which they are in practice restrictive and not the will of the people.

The one example he cited - a British man being arrested for 'praying' outside an abortion clinic - was carried out under laws introduced by those well known Marxists Priti Patel and Suella Braverman. It exists because Brits broadly don't mind banning behaviour we don't like, are fairly solidly pro the right to abortion, our religion isn't generally evangelical, and we judge the potential distress to women worth blocking. So introduced exclusion zones because clinics were being targeted.

Proudly secular France of course has its ban on religious symbols, while Germany, for understandable reasons, has strict bans on Nazi symbolism. Each country has their own norms that broadly allow free speech and protest but place certain restrictions on it when deem the nuissance or dangers are too much.

Americans fetishise their 1st ammendment rights rhetorically, but we all know in practice it's somewhat different and are no better. There's no bigger reminder of that than the current administration trying to fire anyone who isn't a Trumpian wingnut, or Elon's banning of views he doesn't like from Twitter while claiming to be a free speech warrior. The only difference is that they are massive, hectoring, ignorant, hypocrites about it.

Despite Vance's claims the views he wants to whinge as being victimised aren't banned from the public sphere - as evidenced by the success of certain parties holding them. They might be socially unacceptable in some circles or looked down upon by liberal politicians but that's not the same thing as being unfairly restricted. Liberals have as much right to hate the far right as the far right do liberals.

What Vance is doing is rather inversion by trying to be a crybully - ironically, rather like the worst kind of 'wokeness' - saying it's so unfair you don't accept my views and reasoning as right, despite its obvious ignorance. Then I'll scream like a baby and demand as my right to 'free speech' that you have to not just allow me to say what I say, but go along with it too.

Truly a pathetic specimen, and yes, a Big Mac Eating Surrender Monkey to boot.

I think he chose a poor example but there are better ones. Take trans. I think the prevailing ‘right opinion’ is that you can change your gender, so a biological man, with xy chromosomes throughout, a prostate, a penis, a preponderance of testosterone etc can simply say ‘I am a woman’ and everyone has to say, yes, you are a woman. Don’t agree? You can end up suspended at work and accused of harassment.
So yes there is a culture of there being the ‘correct’ opinion and dissent is not welcome.
There are other subjects - race and immigration where people fear to say what they really think.
So I think he is right to an extent, just not using the right examples.

I am seen I think as pretty far right so here is my opinion on your example

We should respect the wish that she is she, call her by her new name etc and treat her as a woman....however if the biological women in the building object to her being in the changing rooms or loos then we also have to respect those rights too. And no she absolutely doesn't get to do sports in the female category not end up in a women only space or group such as a refuge or prison or rape therapy unless the women involved are comfortable with it.

I am on the left and agree with what you say after the "....." I'm not going to call a bloke "she" just because he says I should.

williamglenn said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

So Vance comes to Europe with the objective of getting Europe to get serious about its own defence, Europe responds by doing just that, and Vance is the idiot?

HYUFD said:

'Dominic Cummings has called on the public to vote for Reform UK at this year’s local elections in order to remove Kemi Badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party.

Writing on his Substack yesterday, the former Boris Johnson adviser implored British voters to “do regime change” and combat the “rot of elite culture, elite values and elite education over decades”.

In the 25,000-word post, Cummings laid out his plan of action as: “shove out Kemi ASAP, take over Tories, get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform.” Describing the Tories as “dead in every way,” he called on voters to “push what is falling”. “Vote Reform in all local elections,” he wrote, “and help start the avalanche” to remove Badenoch.'

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dominic-cummings-vote-reform-uk-in-the-local-elections/

rottenborough said:

How long can Rubio last in the job?

Yet again today playing second fiddle to Vance.

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

'Dominic Cummings has called on the public to vote for Reform UK at this year’s local elections in order to remove Kemi Badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party.

Writing on his Substack yesterday, the former Boris Johnson adviser implored British voters to “do regime change” and combat the “rot of elite culture, elite values and elite education over decades”.

In the 25,000-word post, Cummings laid out his plan of action as: “shove out Kemi ASAP, take over Tories, get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform.” Describing the Tories as “dead in every way,” he called on voters to “push what is falling”. “Vote Reform in all local elections,” he wrote, “and help start the avalanche” to remove Badenoch.'

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dominic-cummings-vote-reform-uk-in-the-local-elections/

That's the most compelling reason I've heard in a good nine years to vote Tory.

biggles said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

Agree. Trump and his chums are correct that we have unfairly taken the US military for a ride for 50 years and should pay our own way; but they seem to not realise that if the rest of the western world withdraws all other good will, the U.S. is ####ed. We do do things.

If it wants to take on China, it needs a united West, and it could and should lead us. But if doesn’t want to, the U.K. can share that role with its peers.

Pagan2 said:

Winchy said:

Pagan2 said:

turbotubbs said:

MJW said:

Mexicanpete said:

maxh said:

Just watched Vance's speech to the Munich security conference today.

It is well worth a listen, whatever your politics. He makes an excellent challenge to Europe. I believe strongly that we should listen to his arguments, even if he has little credibility as a messenger.

For those who haven't listened, essentially he argues that Europe's biggest threat to security is our own desire to censor certain voices and not to listen to voters who want to vote for e.g. AfD. His strongest argument is that we cannot win by pretending far right parties are not popular.

My problem with his speech, though, is the blatant hypocrisy. To have Musk at the centre of your government and to lecture others on free speech is, to put it mildly, shameless.

My other problem is that he does not make any attempt to address the other side of the argument i.e. that the reason we need to fight against misinformation is that those such as Musk are in the business of spreading it, because it is profitable.

In my view the only way that we achieve the good parts of what Vance argues for (more robust free speech) is if we ensure that the megaphones that amplify speech in our democracy (media of all sorts) are working for us not against us.

The interesting feature of the free speech argument is (whatever side of the fence we sit) our free speech is good and should be celebrated, but other people's free speech is dangerous and should be banned.

The basic problem with Vance's claptrap is that it's a massive overselling of the idea Europe "censors" certain voices based on a very American ignorance of how different norms, laws, and practices developed in Europe, and the extent to which they are in practice restrictive and not the will of the people.

The one example he cited - a British man being arrested for 'praying' outside an abortion clinic - was carried out under laws introduced by those well known Marxists Priti Patel and Suella Braverman. It exists because Brits broadly don't mind banning behaviour we don't like, are fairly solidly pro the right to abortion, our religion isn't generally evangelical, and we judge the potential distress to women worth blocking. So introduced exclusion zones because clinics were being targeted.

Proudly secular France of course has its ban on religious symbols, while Germany, for understandable reasons, has strict bans on Nazi symbolism. Each country has their own norms that broadly allow free speech and protest but place certain restrictions on it when deem the nuissance or dangers are too much.

Americans fetishise their 1st ammendment rights rhetorically, but we all know in practice it's somewhat different and are no better. There's no bigger reminder of that than the current administration trying to fire anyone who isn't a Trumpian wingnut, or Elon's banning of views he doesn't like from Twitter while claiming to be a free speech warrior. The only difference is that they are massive, hectoring, ignorant, hypocrites about it.

Despite Vance's claims the views he wants to whinge as being victimised aren't banned from the public sphere - as evidenced by the success of certain parties holding them. They might be socially unacceptable in some circles or looked down upon by liberal politicians but that's not the same thing as being unfairly restricted. Liberals have as much right to hate the far right as the far right do liberals.

What Vance is doing is rather inversion by trying to be a crybully - ironically, rather like the worst kind of 'wokeness' - saying it's so unfair you don't accept my views and reasoning as right, despite its obvious ignorance. Then I'll scream like a baby and demand as my right to 'free speech' that you have to not just allow me to say what I say, but go along with it too.

Truly a pathetic specimen, and yes, a Big Mac Eating Surrender Monkey to boot.

I think he chose a poor example but there are better ones. Take trans. I think the prevailing ‘right opinion’ is that you can change your gender, so a biological man, with xy chromosomes throughout, a prostate, a penis, a preponderance of testosterone etc can simply say ‘I am a woman’ and everyone has to say, yes, you are a woman. Don’t agree? You can end up suspended at work and accused of harassment.
So yes there is a culture of there being the ‘correct’ opinion and dissent is not welcome.
There are other subjects - race and immigration where people fear to say what they really think.
So I think he is right to an extent, just not using the right examples.

I am seen I think as pretty far right so here is my opinion on your example

We should respect the wish that she is she, call her by her new name etc and treat her as a woman....however if the biological women in the building object to her being in the changing rooms or loos then we also have to respect those rights too. And no she absolutely doesn't get to do sports in the female category not end up in a women only space or group such as a refuge or prison or rape therapy unless the women involved are comfortable with it.

I am on the left and agree with what you say after the "....." I'm not going to call a bloke "she" just because he says I should.

See that I think rude, if she wants to be she and be called susan instead of samuel...don't see that as a problem and rude not to.

biggles said:

HYUFD said:

'Dominic Cummings has called on the public to vote for Reform UK at this year’s local elections in order to remove Kemi Badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party.

Writing on his Substack yesterday, the former Boris Johnson adviser implored British voters to “do regime change” and combat the “rot of elite culture, elite values and elite education over decades”.

In the 25,000-word post, Cummings laid out his plan of action as: “shove out Kemi ASAP, take over Tories, get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform.” Describing the Tories as “dead in every way,” he called on voters to “push what is falling”. “Vote Reform in all local elections,” he wrote, “and help start the avalanche” to remove Badenoch.'

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dominic-cummings-vote-reform-uk-in-the-local-elections/

I think I vaguely remember a man called “Cummings”. Wasn’t he the one with the dodgy eyes. Yesterday’s man.

biggles said:

HYUFD said:

'Dominic Cummings has called on the public to vote for Reform UK at this year’s local elections in order to remove Kemi Badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party.

Writing on his Substack yesterday, the former Boris Johnson adviser implored British voters to “do regime change” and combat the “rot of elite culture, elite values and elite education over decades”.

In the 25,000-word post, Cummings laid out his plan of action as: “shove out Kemi ASAP, take over Tories, get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform.” Describing the Tories as “dead in every way,” he called on voters to “push what is falling”. “Vote Reform in all local elections,” he wrote, “and help start the avalanche” to remove Badenoch.'

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dominic-cummings-vote-reform-uk-in-the-local-elections/

I think I vaguely remember a man called “Cummings”. Wasn’t he the one with the dodgy eyes. Yesterday’s man.

williamglenn said:

Winchy said:

williamglenn said:

Winchy said:

Leon said:

The Indian economy is about to be devastated by AI. It will kill all the outsourced workers - the programmers. Then it will kill their call centres. Then it will kill *anyone* who works on a screen from abroad. Then it will kill anyone who works from home, even domestically. Then it will kill 50% of white collar workers overall

That’s in the next 1-4 years

I just want to get my next predictions in, after my success with Ukraine

The question is what form will the opposition to this take.

That the ongoing and near-future deskilling, dumbing down, capital concentration, and labour market reduction have been given a name - and a two-letter name at that - may turn out to be a weakness.

Who with any humanity in them, who with a soul, isn't open to the call "Fuck AI to stay alive"?

Anyone campaigning against AI who isn't using AI is giving themselves a handicap, so it's a self-defeating proposition.

Asymmetric warfare.

How will the AI side crush those who in their opposition to it don't use AI? What specific weapons will they use?

CND didn't use nukes. Okay, CND lost, but the reason wasn't its omission to nuke up.

Maybe that's where they went wrong. If the ladies of Greenham Common had an independent nuclear deterrent, they wouldn't have been so easy to ignore.

ydoethur said:

biggles said:

HYUFD said:

'Dominic Cummings has called on the public to vote for Reform UK at this year’s local elections in order to remove Kemi Badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party.

Writing on his Substack yesterday, the former Boris Johnson adviser implored British voters to “do regime change” and combat the “rot of elite culture, elite values and elite education over decades”.

In the 25,000-word post, Cummings laid out his plan of action as: “shove out Kemi ASAP, take over Tories, get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform.” Describing the Tories as “dead in every way,” he called on voters to “push what is falling”. “Vote Reform in all local elections,” he wrote, “and help start the avalanche” to remove Badenoch.'

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dominic-cummings-vote-reform-uk-in-the-local-elections/

I think I vaguely remember a man called “Cummings”. Wasn’t he the one with the dodgy eyes. Yesterday’s man.

It's not his dodgy eyes, it's his dodgy brain that's the problem.

We'd have forgiven him the stupid eye test if he hadn't been such a thick twat with a remarkably inflated idea of his own ego inculcated by elite culture, elite education and elite values over an IQ somewhere below the number achieved in Celsius on an unusually cold winter's day in the Antarctic.

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

That's not really true: the EU exports far more than the US.

Take exports to China: it sucks up roughly twice as many goods and services from the EU ($250bn) as the US ($143bn). Or the UK - again, many more imports from the EU than the US. It's only really Mexico and Canada that import a lot more from the US than the EU.

biggles said:

ydoethur said:

biggles said:

HYUFD said:

'Dominic Cummings has called on the public to vote for Reform UK at this year’s local elections in order to remove Kemi Badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party.

Writing on his Substack yesterday, the former Boris Johnson adviser implored British voters to “do regime change” and combat the “rot of elite culture, elite values and elite education over decades”.

In the 25,000-word post, Cummings laid out his plan of action as: “shove out Kemi ASAP, take over Tories, get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform.” Describing the Tories as “dead in every way,” he called on voters to “push what is falling”. “Vote Reform in all local elections,” he wrote, “and help start the avalanche” to remove Badenoch.'

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dominic-cummings-vote-reform-uk-in-the-local-elections/

I think I vaguely remember a man called “Cummings”. Wasn’t he the one with the dodgy eyes. Yesterday’s man.

It's not his dodgy eyes, it's his dodgy brain that's the problem.

We'd have forgiven him the stupid eye test if he hadn't been such a thick twat with a remarkably inflated idea of his own ego inculcated by elite culture, elite education and elite values over an IQ somewhere below the number achieved in Celsius on an unusually cold winter's day in the Antarctic.

The clue is in the linked article. 25,000 words to say that? No wonder his government achieved sod all.

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

That's not really true: the EU exports far more than the US.

Take exports to China: it sucks up roughly twice as many goods and services from the EU ($250bn) as the US ($143bn). Or the UK - again, many more imports from the EU than the US. It's only really Mexico and Canada that import a lot more from the US than the EU.

And to repeat yes it does now but its an ever declining figure, not therefore a proof of the eu empires strength

biggles said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

Agree. Trump and his chums are correct that we have unfairly taken the US military for a ride for 50 years and should pay our own way; but they seem to not realise that if the rest of the western world withdraws all other good will, the U.S. is ####ed. We do do things.

If it wants to take on China, it needs a united West, and it could and should lead us. But if doesn’t want to, the U.K. can share that role with its peers.

kamski said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

The EU says it's the top trading partner for 80 countries and the US for only 20.

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

That's not really true: the EU exports far more than the US.

Take exports to China: it sucks up roughly twice as many goods and services from the EU ($250bn) as the US ($143bn). Or the UK - again, many more imports from the EU than the US. It's only really Mexico and Canada that import a lot more from the US than the EU.

And to repeat yes it does now but its an ever declining figure, not therefore a proof of the eu empires strength

Errr: EU export performance has been pretty strong, it's domestic demand and demographics that are their real problem.

MJW said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

Indeed. Obviously it isn't remarkable as they are American. But quite amusing that they can't see that just as an EU politician going to a conference in, say Atlanta, and giving a lecture on race, would go down like a cup of cold sick.

Turning up in Munich and lecturing on the far right on democracy is liable to provoke dripping disdain from across Europe.

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

That's not really true: the EU exports far more than the US.

Take exports to China: it sucks up roughly twice as many goods and services from the EU ($250bn) as the US ($143bn). Or the UK - again, many more imports from the EU than the US. It's only really Mexico and Canada that import a lot more from the US than the EU.

And to repeat yes it does now but its an ever declining figure, not therefore a proof of the eu empires strength

Errr: EU export performance has been pretty strong, it's domestic demand and demographics that are their real problem.

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

That's not really true: the EU exports far more than the US.

Take exports to China: it sucks up roughly twice as many goods and services from the EU ($250bn) as the US ($143bn). Or the UK - again, many more imports from the EU than the US. It's only really Mexico and Canada that import a lot more from the US than the EU.

And to repeat yes it does now but its an ever declining figure, not therefore a proof of the eu empires strength

Errr: EU export performance has been pretty strong, it's domestic demand and demographics that are their real problem.

EU gdp as a percentage of world gdp has dropped year on year and now about 15% from a lot more than 20% a decade or two back

rottenborough said:

biggles said:

ydoethur said:

biggles said:

HYUFD said:

'Dominic Cummings has called on the public to vote for Reform UK at this year’s local elections in order to remove Kemi Badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party.

Writing on his Substack yesterday, the former Boris Johnson adviser implored British voters to “do regime change” and combat the “rot of elite culture, elite values and elite education over decades”.

In the 25,000-word post, Cummings laid out his plan of action as: “shove out Kemi ASAP, take over Tories, get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform.” Describing the Tories as “dead in every way,” he called on voters to “push what is falling”. “Vote Reform in all local elections,” he wrote, “and help start the avalanche” to remove Badenoch.'

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dominic-cummings-vote-reform-uk-in-the-local-elections/

I think I vaguely remember a man called “Cummings”. Wasn’t he the one with the dodgy eyes. Yesterday’s man.

It's not his dodgy eyes, it's his dodgy brain that's the problem.

We'd have forgiven him the stupid eye test if he hadn't been such a thick twat with a remarkably inflated idea of his own ego inculcated by elite culture, elite education and elite values over an IQ somewhere below the number achieved in Celsius on an unusually cold winter's day in the Antarctic.

The clue is in the linked article. 25,000 words to say that? No wonder his government achieved sod all.

"get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform"

Jeez.

He is desperate to be called in from the cold and have a meeting with Bannon so they can wargame the end of western civilisation in order to prove they were right all along and civil servants are the devil's gonads let lose on the world.

rottenborough said:

biggles said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

Agree. Trump and his chums are correct that we have unfairly taken the US military for a ride for 50 years and should pay our own way; but they seem to not realise that if the rest of the western world withdraws all other good will, the U.S. is ####ed. We do do things.

If it wants to take on China, it needs a united West, and it could and should lead us. But if doesn’t want to, the U.K. can share that role with its peers.

Certainly there should be no more showings of power using our aircraft carriers* in south china sea until Trump stops attacking us.

* when they are actually seaworthy. LOL

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

That's not really true: the EU exports far more than the US.

Take exports to China: it sucks up roughly twice as many goods and services from the EU ($250bn) as the US ($143bn). Or the UK - again, many more imports from the EU than the US. It's only really Mexico and Canada that import a lot more from the US than the EU.

And to repeat yes it does now but its an ever declining figure, not therefore a proof of the eu empires strength

Errr: EU export performance has been pretty strong, it's domestic demand and demographics that are their real problem.

EU gdp as a percentage of world gdp has dropped year on year and now about 15% from a lot more than 20% a decade or two back

Yes, but that wasn't the discussion point: it was about being integrated into world trade.

kamski said:

Pagan2 said:

kamski said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

The EU says it's the top trading partner for 80 countries and the US for only 20.

Ah the eu says......maybe not an impartial speaker, also even if true an irrelevant stat as it depends on who the the 20 are and who the 80 are....which would you choose 80 somalia's vs 20 canadas

Why don't you look up the relevant figures yourself? Or just keep on believing that the EU is a 'little backwater' in terms of world trade if it makes you happy.

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rottenborough said:

Cicero said:

A cold night in Tallinn.

I think that Trump and Vance just seriously damaged American leadership of the West, and certainly the European part of it. I had a few beers with a friend who is a senior Estonian politician. The commentary from the MAGA crew was, to a degree predicted. What was not predicted was the naked contempt for all of the EU members and indeed also the UK. However, the economy of the Nordic Baltic 7 is basically the same size as that of Russia and the view he put forward is that in many ways the MAGA mob have just done Europe a massive favour. "We have no choice, we have to work together", There are already significant discussions as to what now needs to be done. The coordination of the JEF states: Nordic/Baltic, the Netherlands and the UK is being discussed and it seems that Poland too will probably join quite quickly. So, with large scale defence expenditure on the way, the view is that the Nordic/Baltic region will be more than capable of seeing off any Russian attack without calling on the US. The US leverage could fall surprisingly quickly.

As for wider EU-US relations, there are already significant discussions about what to do if the US is going to stab Ukraine in the back. Again the view is that if the US is attacking the EU, then the EU no longer needs to accommodate US wishes in a variety of spheres, including tech regulation and finance. The contempt that Vance expressed is not a one way street. The EU will hit back very hard if Trump attempts to hurt global trade in ways that Brussels deems unacceptable.

So, "it begins". The EU economy is larger and more integrated into global trade than the US economy. Vance´s astonishingly ill judged speech is going to blow back to Washington in ways that the MAGA people do not even begin to expect. "Its sad, but is a matter of survival, we can not allow the US to compromise our hard fought freedom on a mere whim, and we wont"

So, I think Putin and Trump are going to get a few nasty surprises in the coming weeks.

I'm pretty sure Trump 2.0 will end in an economic firestorm. He hasn't a fucking clue about the world, trade or economics. Or indeed science and technology.

He wants to drill shale like there's no tomorrow even though the world wont need to buy his shale because the caravan has moved on.

Hopefully the storm will only be in America.

lols at the thought that the eu is more integrated into world trade its a protectionist overregulated little backwater that even now is having to backpeddle on ai regulation because everyone else is laughing at them

That's not really true: the EU exports far more than the US.

Take exports to China: it sucks up roughly twice as many goods and services from the EU ($250bn) as the US ($143bn). Or the UK - again, many more imports from the EU than the US. It's only really Mexico and Canada that import a lot more from the US than the EU.

And to repeat yes it does now but its an ever declining figure, not therefore a proof of the eu empires strength

Errr: EU export performance has been pretty strong, it's domestic demand and demographics that are their real problem.

EU gdp as a percentage of world gdp has dropped year on year and now about 15% from a lot more than 20% a decade or two back

Winchy said:

rottenborough said:

biggles said:

ydoethur said:

biggles said:

HYUFD said:

'Dominic Cummings has called on the public to vote for Reform UK at this year’s local elections in order to remove Kemi Badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party.

Writing on his Substack yesterday, the former Boris Johnson adviser implored British voters to “do regime change” and combat the “rot of elite culture, elite values and elite education over decades”.

In the 25,000-word post, Cummings laid out his plan of action as: “shove out Kemi ASAP, take over Tories, get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform.” Describing the Tories as “dead in every way,” he called on voters to “push what is falling”. “Vote Reform in all local elections,” he wrote, “and help start the avalanche” to remove Badenoch.'

https://unherd.com/newsroom/dominic-cummings-vote-reform-uk-in-the-local-elections/

I think I vaguely remember a man called “Cummings”. Wasn’t he the one with the dodgy eyes. Yesterday’s man.

It's not his dodgy eyes, it's his dodgy brain that's the problem.

We'd have forgiven him the stupid eye test if he hadn't been such a thick twat with a remarkably inflated idea of his own ego inculcated by elite culture, elite education and elite values over an IQ somewhere below the number achieved in Celsius on an unusually cold winter's day in the Antarctic.

The clue is in the linked article. 25,000 words to say that? No wonder his government achieved sod all.

"get Trump/Elon to facilitate a merger with Reform"

Jeez.

He is desperate to be called in from the cold and have a meeting with Bannon so they can wargame the end of western civilisation in order to prove they were right all along and civil servants are the devil's gonads let lose on the world.

A humanities graduate with physics envy?

He was going to start the Startup Party on election night as soon as the exit poll came in, if I recall. What a genius strategist and heir to Sun Tzu he surely is.

Much of what he bangs out on his keyboard reminds me of the labels on Dr Bronner's Soap, but did you get this following bit?

"The starkest aspect is how the delusional and deceitful story of ‘mass immigration is a success, integration is working’ is dramatically collapsing in rape gangs, riots, arson, vigilantes, and spreading discussion of mass conflict — while Westminster focuses not on the problems but on keeping the coverups hidden and changing the subject from 30 years of self-sabotage." (BBM)

He means race war.